Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Okay, I'm gonna call the meeting to order. Welcome everyone. First thing I'll do is take a roll call. Um, Mr. Bailey, present. Mr. Here, Mr. Fes here. Sheriff here. Mr. Stock here. Everyone would please stand for the pledge of allegiance.

To the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you.

All right, everyone. I'm going to give a brief overview of what the planning board's duties are and want to welcome everyone to the meeting tonight. This is the city of Graham's planning and zoning board. We're an advisory board to the city council. It considers and makes recommendations to the council regarding any requests for changes to zoning assignments and as such city council is the final arbitrator of the approved or disapproval. Meetings are conducted according to the written and published agenda. Individuals wishing to speak concerning any of the requests to be considered will be given an opportunity during the public comment period for each item. Please identify by raising your hand your desire to speak and the meeting moderator, typically the board chair or vice chair in the chair's absence will recognize you. Please come to the podium, state your name, your address, and voice your comment. The time limit for comments is three minutes but may be extended by the moderator moderator to allow questions from the board. Please maintain a respectful and civil demeanor with all comments and responses to questions. The meeting moderator will signal when an individual's time has expired and will call for the next commentator. If an individual does not respect the time limit, speaks out from the audience without being recognized by the moderator or is disrespectful of the board, they will be subject to removal from the meeting. Once the public comment period has been closed by the moderator, no further comment from the audience will be deemed will be deemed out of order and any individuals not respecting this will be subject to removal. Has anyone got a cell phone in here tonight? If you do, I just ask that you put it on uh vibrate silent and let's move forward. Before we move forward, Cameron, I want to ask a couple more

things. Uh not from you, Cameron, but from the board. Looks like we got several agenda items on tonight other than our u project we've been working on. Uh I would like to get a consensus from the board to move them ahead of our work project we've been working on and if that's okay. Is that okay with everybody? Yes, sir. Okay, great. Has everybody had opportunity to look at the meeting uh minutes from last month? And if so, is any changes need to be made or any comments about them? If not, I'll entertain a motion. So move. I have a second. I'll second it. All right. All in favor?

Any opposed? Thank you. All right, Cameron, we're going to start with number 7A, new business. Let me make sure I got it right. That is the um Parker East Parker Street.

East Parker Street. Perfect. All right. In front of you all is a request to reszone 7.79 acre lot at 804 um East Parker Street from B2 general commercial or is it 80? Okay. uh from B2 general commercial to I1 light industrial for the purpose of utilizing the existing warehouse space for a landscaping company floor to run their operations out of. Uh the B2 zoning currently supports contractor's office but does not permit the outside use or the use of outside storage which is why the applicant is requesting the resoning. The land currently falls within the industrial/wwarehouse land use category which supports the use of a large one or twostory building uh with easy access to major roads like state highways uh and interstate 4085 uses surrounding the property or other warehousing uses a church and a mobile home park. Um and that will be my conclusion. And just clarification, it's 808, not 804 inside of the staff report. I apologize. So, um if you have any questions, I'm happy to answer those. Thank you. Is the um petitioner or the applicant here? Come on up and speak to us. Please state your name and your address for the record.

My name is uh Nicholas Melie. Uh is are you looking for a business address or person? Either one. Uh it's 107 Favville Street uh in downtown Raleigh, North Carolina. 27612 or 27601. Uh I'm actually here on behalf of the property owner. I uh I represent him. Um and uh he could not make it tonight, which I had uh I I let uh Cameron know that uh he was not going to be here and I'd be here in his place. Um but uh yeah, happy to answer any questions.

Tell us what your purpose here uh for the resoning, what you're wanting to achieve. Um so so Chris Papadopoulos um the applicant on the uh the application um is the current owner of the property and he's actually under contract to sell it. Um the buyer's representation Calvin is here as well. Um and they've got a tenant that is looking to move into the building. I believe Calvin can clarify, but uh they do landscaping um supplies. Is that correct? You state your name and address.

Calvin Stevenson, Roswell, Georgia. uh representing the buyer. And this piece of property as is is absolutely perfect for the tenant that we're putting in here. Um it's a warehouse. It has already fenced in outdoor storage. So, no change to the property really is going to be made at all except for some parking. Um but we just need the existing outdoor storage to be able to be utilized. And in order to do that, we had to get it or we're requesting that it be reszoned uh to I1, which is what all the surrounding property seems to be as well already.

How many um vehicles are you going to have working out of here?

Uh right now they'll just be uh two to three, but their their growth projections will increase over the years. It's going to be a long-term lease. Um it's uh this is a subsidiary of a larger company that's based out of Atlanta. They've been here in the North Carolina uh market under different names, but they're they've been brought under one umbrella. Um so it's turf management. So your yard needs to stay green or weed free or insect free, this is what they do. And what are we going to be storing outside in outside storage?

It's just going to be parking for cars, number one. Number two, it will be uh their product uh fertilizer uh aggregate that they put out, you know, on lawns, stuff like that. And it will be it will be screened is my understanding the requirement. So, the storage area that's already fenced off, you won't be able to see what's in there anyway,

right? Be sure on the screening, if it is approved, that you use the proper screening material uh where you cannot see through it. I know that in the past there's been some people that were approved and they had to go back and rescreen twice. Just trying to trying to save you some money there. Uh I'll take I'll take any suggestions on that on that note. Mr. Bailey, uh start with you if you have any questions. No, sir. No. Mr. Huffines, Mr. Besh would like to ask you about your storage. When you say vehicles and and such and then you put product as well, are you uh saying that it possibly put uh some type of storage buildings there as well?

No, sir. Okay. Thank you, Mr. W. A couple of questions for you. the outside storage. Nice nice fenced area there. Uh are you anticipating using any of the other property to store anything? No sir, that's just parking area. Okay. Are you going to be storing any kind of large equipment? You say this is turf management. Uh are we talking about just things like mowers or we talking about bigger stuff like cranes? It's back. Whatever.

These are just vehicles. They don't mow any grass. They don't cut anything down. They don't do anything. They simply treat plants and grasses, etc. Okay? So, we're not talking about back hose or loaders or bulldozers, anything like that. They don't do install. They don't do anything like that. Mr. Doc,

I got one for Cameron. Cameron, what's the surrounding neighborhood? What's surrounding this property? Can you tell me? So, if you'll uh bring your attention toward the screen up here, as I mentioned, there's pretty much everything on the southern side of East Parker or these similar types of uses with um kind of warehouse, contractor's office space. Um this 804 uh East Parker Street right here um is in church um that's operating out of kind of like a warehouse building. Um, so there's uh they're operating out of there and using some of the parking area around it. And across the street of Elm Street over here is the Spanish Oaks um mobile home development. Um down Flower Street, you do have some single family residential. Um and uh that's essentially about it. Some more industrial up here toward the the north eastern side. Um but as mentioned, if you can um take a look, it's just kind of um hatched out where our future land use plan shows all of this area being industrial warehousing.

There are some businesses that are obviously industrial in that area. Some large cranes and and large large equipment right right next to it. As a matter of fact, all it's all pretty much industrial. Yes, sir. Mr. Kpatrick. Couple more questions just um Sure. I guess maybe a competitor that would so the board will quite understand you. You're like a true green, right? Yes, sir. Something like you're going to have the trucks that go out and you're going to apply chemicals, seed, fertilizer, pesticide, herbicides. That's it. And that's it. And it's all on trucks. Keeping the lawns green. Yes, sir. Okay. I don't have any further questions.

One one other quick question. These chemicals, lawn chemicals and such can be toxic or whatever. That would absolutely have to be secure. Is that

Yes, sir. And I've already sent the list to the fire department. And I've talked to them about it, gone over everything with them, and the quantities that they have are lower just storage wise than it puts, you know, that it puts in another bracket to where you have to house them individually or separately, etc. But they don't have I mean the hazardous material the hazardous materials is not really hazardous anymore because they won't let you use hazardous materials. Right. Thank you Mr. Doc. I can follow you going to conduct any sales at this site at all?

No sir. Any further followup? Mr. H. Just one for Cameron. Yes sir. Does this go to TRC for parking and driveway?

It depends on the updates that they plan on doing out here. Um if they do look to do some paving out here, we potentially will um look at where their parking areas are at. So um depending upon the paving schedule of which they work with, um yes sir, there is a chance and that would also give us the opportunity to see um the type of material they're using on their screened in fence etc. Any further from the applicant? Thank you. Young anybody in the audience that would like to speak about this tonight? Since there's no one, I'm going to close this public hearing and we'll have some discussion amongst ourselves.

Well, Mr. Chairman, with this uh reasonzoning, would there be any future problems because of the reasoning if this particular change would were to be made and the tenant uh no longer needs the property and vacates? I that was one of my concerns that reszoning it back to a B2 because the convenience store uh fuel can be stored there, gas pumps, it opens the door up. Cameron, if you would bring up um B2 uh permitted uses. Yes, sir. Give me one second. Y'all continue talking. I'll get

that. That was one of my concerns about reszoning, doing a total reszoning because if they stay two months, one month, six months, and they leave, we've opened that up to a B2 zoning. Just so I'm clear and we're clear here, the current property is zoned B2 and they're looking to reszone it to I12. Yes, sir. So, just point of clarification. Okay. Thank you. So, it's going to be consistent with the It will be consistent with So, if you would not B2, bring up I1. I just want to look at a couple other Yes, sir. What was allowed in I1?

Let's see. There's a long laundry list. I wish I had something a little more condensed. um talks about office spaces, ambulance, fire, police, rescue stations, special uses for amusement, water parks, things along those lines, commercial kennels with outdoor storage or runs, uh arts and craft studios, boutique shops, large item stores, athletic fields, um auditoriums by special use permit, vehicle accessory and supply sales, vehicle assembly, painting, upholstering, rebuilding, reconditioning, uh vehicle body fender repair, conduct ed completely within an enclosed building. Uh vehicle sales, vehicle repair shops, not including body or fender repair, uh vehicle towing. Um, uh, let's see. banks, banquet halls, barber shops, batting cages that are outdoor, billiard halls, bingo games, bowling alleys, public amusement establishments, shops, bulk sales with storage yards, distribution centers, cabinet, woodworking, upholstery shops, campgrounds, commercial through special uses, car washes, um cell towers, cemetery mausoleums, both those by special use permits, religious services, uh communication or broadcasting facility without tower, Community centers, special use, contractor's office, no outdoor storage, convenience stores, convenience stores, uh, with or without gasoline pumps, daycare adults less more than six, daycare child, uh, meeting, uh, safety standards, daycare child operates a home occupation, dwelling quarters for operators in adjacent buildings primary for non-residential use, dry cleaning, laundry services, uh, electronic internet or sweep stakes gaming by special use. Equipment rental, leasing, repair with no outside storage. Equipment rental, leasing or repair with outside storage. Um, food processing,

wholesale, flea markets by special use, floor covering, drapery or upholstery sales, funeral home, crematorium, garden centers, mini golf, uh, swimming lodge, tennis lodge, clubs by special use, government office, home occupation, hospital by special use, hotel, motel, executive suites by permitted use by right, um, jails by special use permit, no junkyards, laboratories for testing and research, retail service with outside plant equipment storage, laundromats, manufactured home sales by special use. Um, and all of these are going to be the different types of manufacturing industry types, apparel, bakery, bottling, um, dairy, electrical equipment, fabricated metal, um, glass products, heating.

Cameron, that's that's Sorry y somebody need to cut me off there. I was going I could have gone all night. I felt like I was I was kind of in a flow state. I was trying to get there, but you you were on a roll. Yes, sir. I mean, you can kind of There are similar uses that are approvable in both the B2 and I1. Um, but of course, the I1 is going to allow more of your industrial, of course, more oriented businesses where the B2 would not. And I think they could currently go in there right now as somewhat of a contractor's office and it'd be approvable, but it's the outside storage part of why they're requesting for this I1. No, I don't think it's any different than uh Wallace Plumbing, which is right across the street. Yes, sir. They're running a plumbing company, right? So,

uh I don't have a problem with it. Does anyone else have any further discussion about this? I think I one would be a more compatible zoning for that area anyway. make it more attractive if somebody, you know, if they did leave more attractive and it fits in with everything that's already there. Yeah, I was going to say and it didn't he said it's light industrial. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, right there. Right there. Okay.

All right. I will entertain a motion uh on this. Chairman, I make a motion that we approve it as uh presented and that uh based on the Graham 2035 comprehensive plan and the city of Graham development ordinance staff uh that it meets all the criteria uh of uh 2.1.1 2.3.2 and 2.4.2 2 as put forth in the 2035 comprehensive class. I got lost there for 2.4. Uh,

where did you see 2? 2.4.2. Did I read it wrong? Unless I'm looking at the wrong one on No, sir. I believe that's correct. Yeah, you got it right. Be looking at the wrong page 44. Okay. It was a very fast uh 2.4.2. All right. I have a motion. Do I hear a second? Second. All in favor? Anyone opposed? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you, gentlemen. Uh Cameron, let's move on to the next one.

Yes, sir. Of course. Um so in front of you all is a another request to reszone conditionally reszone.22 acres of land at 602 Washington Street um from B3 neighborhood business to CB conditional business for the purpose of allowing a life counseling use to be utilized inside of the existing building on site. Our development ordinance does not currently permit the use inside of the B3 zoning district. That use being life counseling. Um and the applicant is requesting a condition um that all of the B3 uses for the property remain but allow for the life counseling use to be permitted at this location as well. Um the applicant has provided a detailed list of the activities of the proposed use and conditions they are offering for the inclusion of the life counseling use condition um that they are requesting. Uh this property is listed on the future land use map as suburban residential. The suburban residential land use area describes principal uses in the zone are predominantly detached single family homes. New neighborhoods and new neighborhoods may include a range of duplexes, town homes, and smallcale multif family units uh of 12 units or less. It also states that supporting uses in this area are places of worship, daycarees, park facilities, schools, civic spaces, and consideration of accessory dwelling uh units uh provided they are designed to maintain the single family character of neighborhoods. Designated neighborhood centers may include neighborhood oriented commercial, small professional offices, live work units, and home occupations provided they do not generate excessive traffic and parking. The applicant has requested a condition that the site plan requirement be waved due to the nature of this request as well. And that is all that I have.

All right. Is the applicant here? Come on up and talk to us. Hey, state your name and your address, please. My name is Brianna Hutchinson and my address is 409 South Second Street in Meban. I didn't quite catch your first name, Briana. All right, we're ready for you. Give us

Yes. Um, so Preach Tree Learning Collaborative is requesting a conditional reszoning to operate a small community. Could you speak up just a little bit? Some of us are hard of hearing. Good. Is this better for y'all? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Pull that mic. Pull that. There we go. Is that better?

Yay. Okay. So, Peace Tree Learning Collaborative is requesting a conditional resoning uh to operate a small community-based applied behavioral analysis therapy center servicing children with autism and developmental disabilities. The proposed site will service as a therapeutic educational and administrative space offering one-to-one therapy, small groupoup instruction, parent training, and staff collaboration. The business model um emphasized low traffic, low noise and family centered services consistent with the neighborhood compatible um professional uses. Um we are trying to uh uh add in a fence in the back of the building. Uh the fence uh as requested by the land owner uh Miss Janet is to make sure that it will be six feet. There is covering. Um we're not expecting to have any large equipment and small things like bikes, tricycles, um things for hopscotch, etc. Uh the proposed usage, uh we will be servicing children between the ages of 2 and 18. Um the business is owned by myself. Um and our two co-founders are here, Ashley and Charmaine. Um, we there will be no medical procedures, overnight stay or hight traffic services um will occur on this site. Our hours of operation will be between the hours of 8:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. with occasional um weekend appointments and evening evening parent workshops, no more than two per month. Um staffing on this site will be no more between the uh three and seven. Typical daily staff will be between 4 and six. Of the roles that would be at the site is a behavior analyst which is myself um registered behavioral technician and

administrative support. Uh we do expect uh daily client visits to be between four and six clients. uh we will be staggering uh appointments. So majority of our clients will have a morning session which is be between 8 and 1. We'll close for our lunch break and then we'll have children between 1 to 6. Uh the site will remain um quiet and professional atmosphere. All activities that will occur outside will make sure that is within the fence area. No children will be playing in the street where it disturb any of the neighbors. Um we do have to follow um ethics and medical guidelines. So we do make sure that all of the children are safe within the building as well as outside. We do have uh security cameras within the building and outside of the building to make sure that everyone is safe. The environmental and community impact there will be no hazardous materials, medical waste or industrial process, industrial processing done at the site. Thank you. That's all I have.

Thank you, Miss Carpatrick. You ready? I just think for the sake of all of us if you could maybe explain kind of what you do there with the children I think it would just be maybe useful for those of us that don't know.

Uh so majority of our children have a diagnosis of autism and what we do is we work with them onetoone developing um living skills adaptive skills. Um, a lot of our children are non-verbal, uh, sorry, nonvocal. Um, so we work on communication, coping skills, emotional regulation, um, help support them within everyday life. Yes. Oh, yeah.

About how many vehicles and what kind of parking uh, facilities will you have there? um currently is um we are using the parking that's already established there. We're not adding any additional uh parking material or anything like that. Um we shouldn't have no more than seven vehicles at the building. Cameron, is there room for seven vehicles on that property? Um absolutely. Yeah, I believe so. Um, I'm trying to think of uh previous uses. Um, and I can try and get it pulled up on uh Street View as well and we can kind of look at it. Um, and that was of course time since it was

almost three years old.

There's plenty plenty of parking, but I I haven't seen anybody in that building in a long time. Be a great great spot. a little bit update. I think this is relatively close. I don't know if there's still existing gravel or if more gravel's been put out. Um but I know um the addition of the handicap parking space was required. Um but I think that there's definitely availability in the grass area for parking area if they needed it. So I don't know if they have plans on adding in gravel or anything or concrete for any parking. Um, but essentially our ordinance doesn't really we have a maximum amount that's required. So we can't require them up to a certain point. So they can have as much or as little as they need up to what extent of that.

For clarification, many many years ago that used to be a convenience store, old fresh air market. That first awning there with the door, that was open air, just an awning at the time right there. Then they closed that in later back in 1920 1891. I couldn't resist. I had I had to get you on that. Mr. Where do you anticipate putting the fenced area? How big will it be?

Um, so in our uh site plan, it is listed as one second. Uh, the proposed fits will be approximately 30 ft by 20 ft by 30 ft. Um, and 6 ft in height with covering. It'll be in the back like around this area. Can you see my correct? 30 by it'll be 30 by 20 by 30. Gotcha. That's 30 by I imagine it's probably just going to fill in this corner back through there. And six feet. That's what I was have anticipated, but just wanted to verify that. 6 feet high. Would that violate uh any ordinances? No, sir. To put something in and we have to just change it.

No. Um so currently we don't have any fencing standards here inside the city. Heightwise um uh even for coverings for outdoor play. I don't think that there's anything that's associated because it's not a daycare. It's not anything else. It's essentially just playground um which doesn't really have much requirements inside of our development ordinance, but it sounds like the applicant or the owner of the property has asked the applicant to make sure it's screened. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Okay. But six feet is not a problem. Got a question for Cameron. Building that's right next to it, just north of it. Is that building still active? It's manufacturing of some sort right here. This 604.

I really do not know to be quite honest with you. Uh I do not have an understanding whether or not it's still operational or not. I I would have a concern if there's any sort of impact from what they might be producing in the terms of fumes, whatever that might affect your kids. Do you have any information on what's in that building? So that's Miss Janet's office. I got a lady back here. Come on up. Maybe you can fill us in. State your name and address, please.

Janet Eckleberger. Uh 2872 Nerius Drive, Mebban. And I also own 602 Washington, 604 Washington, and the apartment complex to the south of it. Um that industrial building is our art studios. We do not have any chemicals in there. I also run a tax office out of there. It's just generally kind of a big art studio now. There's nothing going on in it. So, nothing that would affect the children. Nothing at all. No. No. Thank you. Mhm. It's all I had. I missed uh your operating hours 8:00 a.m. to what? 6:00 p.m.

6 p.m. And you said uh 4 to 6 uh clients per day uh per uh session unit. So that's 8 to one. Then we have an hour break and then it's one to six. 1 to six. And then so you'll be looking at another potential four to six between 1 to six. Yes, sir. Okay. And just out of curiosity, what is the average time limit you spend in a counseling session? Is it an hour, two hours, or is it 30 minutes?

Um, so it depends on the child's assessment. Um, how ABA works. We go based off units per week. Um, so if we have a hypothetical client that needs 15 hours of services a week, what we will do is try to schedule three-hour sessions every day. And is it safe for me to say that you're licensed with the state of North Carolina? Yes, sir. As far as your outdoor playground, what would be your age limit that you would allow out there?

Uh, so I we will actually have it where the younger children, so ages 2 to 12, actually use the outside playground. Our older clients between the ages of 13 and 18 will most likely be out in the community with them. Okay. And is there someone that's out there with them while they're out there by theirel or staff member? So we actually operate um using the requirements that daycarees use. So we make sure there's appropriate ratio outside and I'm assuming there's no regulations on how many patients that you could see. I call them patients but clients. How many clients that you could see in a given day

uh based on it would be based on available staff members. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Okay. You realize that with a conditional resoning that if this board was to consider approving it that there could be other conditions that we may establish that you would have to do, which when I say we're not the final say, the council would be the final say, but council may listen to what we say and they may change what we say, but you realize it could be some other conditions other than the fence. Yes, sir. Um, I think that's all I got. Right. Mr. Fesh,

I believe uh from your application you were saying that there would possibly be one to two uh children at any one time there. Is that am I reading that correctly or Yes, sir. So there's not a a great need for a lot of parking in that area then. Correct. No. Uh the parents will drop their child off. Most parents do not stay for services. They leave do other things and then they come back and pick up the child. So most likely the vehicles outside will be the staff. So is there any kind of security issue with that?

No sir. So, how we will have it set up is that the staff will go to the car, get the child out of the car, the parents sign in the child through our uh Bright Wills app, and then we'll bring the child inside. Okay. Do you operate or have anyone within the business that you have in other areas that do the same type of work? Uh, no. So, we do have inhome services as well. Uh, we do have two clients that's in a different county.

That's all I have for right now, sir. Yes, sir. I just have two questions. Basically, they're technical and procedural questions in nature. Um Cameron in the site plan Peach Tree Learning Collaborative KMA LLC conditional resoning request that's submitted the 1435 square feet that's the building's square footage. I'm assuming that's the case.

Cameron, just for the record, can you determine or tell us what the life counseling use is considered? low volume, high volume, and then we can an kind of an analyze the parking um technically on square footage and on use in the interest of fairness and consistency if if we move forward. Yeah, for sure. I might need to look at our parking table and essentially see what that says and because I don't like there's not a specific life counseling um uh we would say medical office type use at one per 600 square feet or one per employee or something like something similar that would be practically applied to this use

just so that we make sure we address this for future applicants.

Yes sir. I totally understand. Um and I guess that's the um the difficult part as well because um I mean say for instance I mean I guess if you would consider this to be the maximum use on this property of you know inside of that B3 area. Uh something else may come through. I think even convenience stores are permitted inside of the B3 use. Um which may require more parking than what their life counseling or office space use may require or state inside of the development ordinance. Um so if we want to just Are you asking?

Okay. So that helps me. So let's assume that the uh one per 200 rate applies. That'd be seven spaces and one handicap. There's obviously room to accommodate seven spaces. Yes, sir. So we can let that issue go. Thank you. I'm satisfied with that. The second technical issue is that the the petitioner applicant formally asked that the plan portion of the conditional zoning submitt be waved. Was that a formal process? Was that something that um is up to us to determine?

Yeah. So, if you remember back to the other conditional business that we approved for the home occupation um for the hair salon, they kind of presented a similar thing that they are showing as well, just kind of an overview of the site and didn't really give us much of a site plan. It was presented to the applicant that conditional resonings do typically and are required to come with a site plan. Um but I believe based on precedent that was set with the herology it was allowed for the understanding that this is really just to add the condition of the use to be included in the table and not necessarily require the site plan if that is my memory serves me correctly on y'all's decision on that one. That's correct.

Okay. I'm I'm good chairman. Thank you. Mr. Bailey. Uh I'm good. I don't have

any followup. Thank you for your presentation. Anyone else here in the audience that would like to speak about this tonight? Having not seen anybody raised their hand and I will close the public hearing on that and we'll have discussion amongst ourselves. I'm open to anyone starting. Mr. Chair, did we put a stipulation on here? out the hair salon that it would revert back.

I don't recall that as uh as that being a stipulation. I think it automatically reverts back when it's a conditional because it's business specific. Sure. Let me um because I think sorry I thought it but I think I question

from and I can look back in the plans of kind of what was recommended by you all. My thought and understanding is essentially it was permitted in that CB category but was only permitted for the home occupation of the hair salon and I think the single family home use and I think there might have been a garage in the back that was being utilized maybe an accessory dwelling unit and I think that is what y'all put on there was those are the only three things that are allowed on this property currently if that if

thank you for that clar I'll double check and look on here, but I'm I'm fairly not fairly certain, but that's my recollection of it. I'm happy to answer anything else as well while I look through this.

And if if in fact the the reasoning moves forward and is approved at council, would they would they be required to present to you at TRC for any reason so that she's aware of that or Yeah, I think it's similar to the discussion we had with the Parker Street area over there. If there is a condition that says that they shall install X amount of parking spaces on there, it's what we would look at. Um, and also the fencing that's going back out there. Um, I don't think that would apply, but if there is a parking aspect, we would likely need to see that on a set of plans that may not go through the technical review committee. Um, but it's something that us staff would look at um and probably go through the uh building department for their building permit to pave out there, I'd imagine.

Is there a fence permit that she would have to be aware of?

No, sir. We do not have any standards for fencing or permitting. I think it'd be a great use for that building is in a good location there. and sounds like she's got a good um job plan ready, business plan ready for this and I think it'd be a great use for it. I'm only concerned about the fencing um in the back around there that definitely that needs to be a condition that the fence has to be installed and that no other business uh can be run out of there other than what she's applying for.

I think it, you know, it's beneficial to note as well that um because the CB and I think this is what y'all should state inside of there, the CB bases off of the B2 zoning uses. So, if you are all are in favor of this, it'll be important to essentially the only condition that you're implying on this is that the lot shall serve for all the current B3 uses with the inclusion of the life counseling, if that makes sense. Yes sir. I just wanted to make sure that was kind of cleared that um it the request is essentially to include that. So um needs to be kind of addressed in that manner.

I guess I mean if it's a conditional business a business zoning request uh we could limit that to one business type. Is that not correct? You could indeed sir, but um I I don't know. I could not speak on behalf of the property owner if that is ultimately something that she would want. If you do limit it to one, if she, you know, Peach Tree moves out and another business that isn't life counseling comes in, then they have to come back in front of you all to permit a new business inside of there. Exactly. That's what I was looking at. Okay. If that's all right with the audience.

Um we've closed the public hearing. Wait just a minute. Um, I'm not opposed to leaving it as requested. I just don't want to tie our hands because if we impose conditions on the applicant, certain conditions more than what we've talked about here, then that goes with the next business owner that comes in that may not be running or operating the same type of business. So, best for them to have to come back without have another business come in with similar that they would have to come back and tell them either that or comply with the zoning that it presently that is correct that is correct

it is unless we put a condition we can add that condition to but it has to be I think she wants defense any for I think it'd be the most appropriate I think she wants that with children she especially from two to that age group from 2 to 12 time. I I'd like to open uh the public hearing back up. Does anybody have a problem me opening the public hearing back up?

No. Motion with no the public hearing. All right. Yeah. Do I hear a second? I second it. All in favor? I would the applicant come back up. Yep. I want to talk to something lighting. I want to talk about lighting and any type of landscaping and also like to hear from the take another look on while she's coming back up. I will note that this was the recommendation for the uh West Gilorth or Yeah, the West Gilorth prop. Yeah, for the other the hair salon. It was essentially that we limited the use to the primary single family dwelling, the beauty salon and accessory dwelling unit and the attached dwelling unit as well. And that was the essentially that is only allowed on this property.

Okay. Yes, sir. Thank you, ma'am. Uh outside lighting, let's talk about this. If you're going to go from 1 to six, you won't have a problem in the winter time. I mean the summertime, you will in the winter time it's going to be dark. Are you planning on installing any more additional lights on the building, the property that's already existing? Uh, no. So, we have a procedure where if it is dark, the kids are not going outside. Um, so they are only able to go outside during sunlight and then in particular uh weather conditions and at no time nobody spends the night over there.

No sir. We'll spend enough time with them during the day going home. Thank you. And Cameron, if if you will pull that uh site picture back up.

And just as a point of emphasis, I believe um somebody pointed this out um believe Elizabeth did that this is from 2023. Um, but I will note uh and it might even be something that the property owner would have to attest to, but there is some flood lighting um out there at the front entrance way. Um, I I'm okay with that flood. I just don't want it to to look like an industrial park down here, all bright light, and all the neighbors start calling. Totally understand. You're talking about like if they were planning on adding

planning on adding light. That's no problem what I see there. Ma'am, I think you had another question you wanted to talk ask. Thank you, ma'am, for coming back. I just want to make sure that I understand what's happening here. This property is zoned B3. Period. It allows for everything in B3 to happen to it. What we're asking for this evening is a conditional reasoning for this business only to be allowed to do life counseling in this B3. And under no circumstances am I thinking that we'll never be allowed to have any other business here except for a life counseling thing. I mean, I have already vetted out all the vape shops and all the convenience stores that have come to me wanting this thing. These are good people. They're running a good business that's a that's a benefit to our community. But I don't want to get stuck having a life counseling business only. You

You're not stuck with that. We're talking about if she moves out, another life counseling cannot move back into her spot. That's correct. Without coming back to course. Exactly. The conditions only just for that one business, not all of B3. Yes, perfect. That's awesome. I I had one more question for you. If you would pull back up the site or the uh also under that whole area there where the uh uh grass is, is gravel underneath that grass because it was Robinson's grocery store many years ago and that was all a big parking lot. So, it's Yeah, it's very hard to dig and plant anything in there. I'll tell you that. Put the resing sign out there. I don't sit in a lot of rock. Tell me your name again, please. Janet Eckleberg.

Janet Eckleberg. Miss Eckleberg, do you also own the property just to the left? What would that be, Cameron? I believe north. She mentioned she owns it. She owns the And the one beside it, remember? So, you own 415? No, she that one I do not. No, 413 and 411. She owns, right? That whole that whole apartment complex right there, the the the industrial building, the old mill, and then the old grocery store. Okay, good. That was one of our standard questions. Have you talked to the neighbors? So, apparently, you're the neighbor and you approve. I approve. I want these people here. This going to be a real good business for our town and something we don't have, you know. That's that's what I wanted to know. Okay.

Thank you. Thank you for coming back. Thank you. All right. I'm going to close the public comment meeting again and open back up for any discussions. If there's no discussion, I'll entertain a motion and I would direct whoever makes that motion to look at the stipulations uh in the packet. Okay. So, just so I'm correct here in the understanding, I think where this is headed is you're essentially agreeing to the allowing the B3 uses with the inclusion of the life counseling. But if they were to move out and another life counseling use separate from them wants to come in, they're coming back to you all.

Well, if they changed in any form or fashion because the conditions are imposed on one business. Okay. So if a new life counseling comes back in, I would think it would be most appropriate to come back before

Yeah. I don't know if that would cuz whenever you're allowing the condition is that you're allowing the use of life counseling. They would not have to come back here for another use of that's similar to a life counseling. Essentially, this is just a a very widpan text amendment that is putting in life counseling into the B3 uses. Essentially, what they're requesting with the allowance of potential conditions for sight specific things. Um, that's just how I'm looking at it currently. This particular business though, the request is for a life counseling. So, we should have been doing a text amendment then actually doing a resoning.

Yeah. So, that was also floated around. Um, we gave the applicant the rundown of what they could do to get their use approved inside of there. It was either, um, do a reszoning to a B2 where life counseling is permitted, write a text amendment that allows for life counseling to go inside of the B3 district, or a conditional resoning, which essentially is doing the same, but allows you all to potentially review it and impose conditions that you see fit on the property. Um, but the way I'm seeing it is that whenever you um allow for the use of life counseling to be included on this property and that's approved, you can't get another life counseling use that's not them if they want to come in to come back in front of you all because it's already approved for that use to be on the lot.

But but the use was with a specific condition. So, she says she's going to have four to six clients in the morning session potentially and four to six in the afternoon. She wasn't going to allow uh any nighttime in the playground. Okay. And they were closing at 6:00. So, the next one that comes in is going to be open to 10:00. Mhm. How are you circumventing it?

I think it just falls under that realm of life counseling and what that definition imposes. I mean, I'm open to other thoughts associated with it, but from my realm of thinking, um, if you allow a use inside of there, it's the same thing if you allowed the inclusion of a convenience store, um, and they meet your conditions, another convenience store could come in and do the exact same thing. The same thing for a residential site. If you approve a residential conditional resoning that has a specific site plan that's shown, they come have to come in there and build the exact same thing. So, I guess I mean I see where you're coming from essentially is imposing the list of conditions that they're this is the only type of life counseling use that is going to be allowed inside of there. That's right.

They want to be a family therapy or a um I guess more of an adultoriented counseling service. You would say that that would need to come back in front of you all. I I I kind of see where you're coming from now. Um Cameron, let me let me see if I can narrow it down just a little bit. If we put a motion out that says it's going to incorporate all of these conditions which are in the request. Yes, sir.

Would that not narrow it down so that if another life counseling um service came in and wanted to occupy that building, would that not prohibit them since it is all of these conditions would be applicable to that one zoning? I think that's fair. Um, I just wanted to make sure that I was understanding where y'all were coming from as well. Um, so if you essentially said this is the condition list that's going to be approved here, um, with the inclusion of all the other B3 uses so it doesn't handcuff Miss Echelberg back there to this specific use, then um, that's fine with me if it's fine with y'all. That was what you were driving at,

right? I mean, I think there's a way to get this approved. But I don't want us to open the door up that she's calling her business a life counseling business. So, a substance abuse counselor comes in here and wants to utilize that building to treat substance abuse and it's within a thousand feet of a church. Yeah. So, then we run into that problem. So, that's why I'm trying to say is I think there's a way to make this happen, but I think the most appropriate way would have been the text amendment.

But then you're getting to the same thing of where we're at. if we were permit a text amendment that would allow that whole bubble of life counseling inside of there or you're defining their exact type of use that's not life counseling because if they write a text amendment and you say life counseling is now approval in the B3 zoning district you're and this is hypothetical because there might actually be something for substance abuse that is not permitted inside the B3 um or the life counseling aspect you open that realm up to not just their type of life counseling but the life counseling of behavioral adults or anything along those lines of marriage counseling, anything else that's more um I guess I wouldn't say severe, but more intensive use of life counseling, whereas theirs is not. So that's where I'm coming from is essentially if you're permitting the life counseling, it is a whole bubble that you're approving inside of there. But if you approve life counseling only specific to the conditions that they have provided, that should likely be sufficient. um that essentially if you're going to bring a life counseling in here, you have to abide by everything that the Peach Tree Learning Collaborative stands by and you cannot go 601, 602, 559. You guys stay up until 6:00

Unless they come back before. Correct. Yes, sir. I'm good with that. I'm fine. I think that would be the best way to go. Y'all understand what I'm saying? To include all of these conditions. Oh, absolutely. If we include all of these conditions as is, are they going to have to come in here if they decide to change their business hours to 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 pm? Because that that's their business hours are in here if they decide to have eight employees instead of seven. Are we saying that they are going to have to come back and get permission to do that?

If that's a if this exact site, this exact plan that they're giving us is the condition. That's my concern. We're not going to use the We might use the hours from 8 to 6. It can be open with I wasn't going to use the client number. We keep saying these conditions. I just want to make sure we're not saying every single sentence in this condition list is what we're holding them to.

That is more or less I guess where I was coming from as well. There's a long list of things and we do have specific administrative amendments to allow for them to alter, but a lot of those are specific more or less to residential type things. um and small very minor operations. But when it comes down to the operations of things that you all have specifically permitted, it's likely going to have to come back up here. Like I said, if they want to change to 601, they're going to have to come back in front of you all to get that extra minute, which seems crazy, but that's unfortunately how it has to go.

And I think that I would I would go ahead and give some leeway on the time. I would go ahead and give some leeway on the time. Yeah. to um when I say some leeway maybe to 8:00 from 8 to 8 that would give her a couple more hours if if she wanted to stay later without violating anything that was approved by the board. Yeah. Um I don't want to put a specific number of clients that she can have by no means. I don't want to limit her growth at all. Actually, I'm all learning so bear with me. We'll ask question.

Oh, that's fine. Are we able to limit the condition to applied behavior analysis therapy which would then prevent us from having substance abuse disorder come in? It would prevent us from allowing any broad bucket of counseling. We can say if we want to move forward the condition is the only other business allowed within is those doing applied behavior analysis therapy. That's a good idea. And you could limit it to serving children if we would like. I don't know because she said she was going to have adults there too. That's a good idea. to 18. 18 that would technically be adults. So I don't No, no, I think that's more than appropriate.

Just just to address Elizabeth's point for a moment. Um I understand what you're saying and I'd agree with it, but I don't want us to have so much leeway is that they could be there till 10:00 at night or later. Uh there's some leeway, but with that leeway is we we don't want to we don't want to have people there at 10 o'clock or midnight. That might happen. Uh plus the fact total staff on site, 3 to 7, that's leeway there. Typical daily staff, 4 to six. It's a small building. It's not going to take the building doesn't have a capacity.

It's U so there there is some merit I think in in imposing these conditions. I mean you've written the conditions she's written the conditions for what she's seeing right now not particularly for growth because the building just doesn't have a whole lot of growth potential. Um I think it's fair to say that you Elizabeth stated like the ABA um type of counseling is the only life counseling with the limit of the time and I think you know that is kind of where you are leaning towards. So the condition would be to only allow that type of life counseling and limit the hours of operation until 6 or 7 o'clock at night, whatever y'all would deem. And I think that kind of hits all y'all's points correct because you seem to be fine with the um number of people because you saying that you can't have but so many people inside 1400 foot building. So, if those are only two things that you're kind of hitting on, I think y'all think y'all got it. So,

I don't think the the number of clients that she'll have will ever interfere with anything that we're talking about anyway. Got room to grow. I I just I don't want to confine her to that time from 8:00 a.m. to 6. I'd rather give her a little bit more time. What about seven? Because then sometimes a parent late picking up that child. You know what I'm saying? You don't want to lock them in and they go to that the parent don't get there at 6:30 to pick up their child. I'm sitting here I was thinking 7:30 to 8:00. Okay, that's fine. I'm okay with that. That sounds good. I'm okay. And still she can still do appointments on the weekends. Right. I'm fine. Y during that time frame of on the weekends from 7:30 to 8:00 she can have all the appointments that that she can in her schedule.

I'm just trying to I want to help you as much as I can, you know. Uh, do you see anything else? You okay? Two question. Two questions. Can we look for the definition of life counseling as it's written in the UDO? Yeah. I'm going to piggyback on what Elizabeth is working toward and um Dean is working towards what the the board is trying to accomplish. Let's see where the UDO says specifically. So, UDO defines life counseling as counselors working with individuals or groups providing counseling and education in a non-residential setting. Oh,

but doesn't address anything about the minor children. Doesn't address anything about the substance abuse or the more intense. That's why I said it's term we're working on. So, if we go with Elizabeth's uh what she said, behavioral analyst, BCBA and RBT, is that correct? Uh it's ABA applied behavior analysis therapy. If we go with that, that pretty much puts it to a should we ask the applicant that that is exactly what the state lensure. I don't have a problem. We'll open it back up. Come back up, please. Thank you. I just want to get it on the talking to you.

I just want to get it on the record. What is your act uh actual license with the state of North Carolina? What? Okay. Um, so here's the tricky part. Okay. So the certification board, so uh that's the BACB, behavior analysis certification board. I am certified to provide the service. The North Carolina licensing board of applied behavior analysis licensed me to practice in North Carolina. So I have both. Um, so um, I can give you guys a copy of Oh, no. No. Okay. We just want to make sure that we are putting the right credentials down. Yeah. Putting in the right stuff.

So to clarify when you like if you're telling someone what you are practicing, are you practicing applied behavior analysis therapy? Okay. Yes. Exactly what you Mr. Dr. Hav, I think you were going to say something on the Does that does that ability allow you to treat someone who has a substance abuse problem that is highly violent or is it uh so my area of expertise is children and young adults. I wouldn't work with anyone with substance abuse.

We understand that. But the f the the following the following uh life counseling bucket uh assuming you stay there 10 years but or or 20 years but there's maybe six months later a a different life counseling. We want to make sure that the definition we apply to this particular case protects the surrounding neighborhood. Will you um and this I don't even know if I can ask but like the A will you what do the acronyms stand for again if you'll kind of uh so it stands for applied behavior analysis. Okay. Yes. Go off of Mr. Huffine's question I think to what we're trying to get at. What are you allowed to within that therapy? Yes.

What are people allowed to practice outside of what you're doing there? Is there anything else that people can practice within that? Yes, we can practice anything. It's the study of human behavior. So um we develop behavioral intervention plans. So we work on help training them build new skills and new behaviors. So there can be a behavior analysis that their expertise is in substance abuse. Is ABA only specific to children with autism as well? No, it's open to everybody. Is your specialization is that autism or is it

Yes, it's autism. Yes. Thank you for the education. Yes. November. Let me let me make sure before she sits down. Okay. So there there could be substance abuse. She said under under her license she could do that but that wasn't what her specialty was. I think you could easily just say no aspects of so sub substance abuse or anything like that be included in your condition. It's real simple. Real easy and simple. Thank you. Have we missed anything? No. Should I sit in the front? Yeah, I'll sit in the front.

Come on up here. Sit with us. I would love to. Thank you. Okay. Well, this has been a pretty interesting uh proposal here. Any further questions? Any further discussion?

We're going to let you make this. Okay. I'm gonna let Mr. Okay. I was like, make sure we get yours in. Y'all

y'all listen real carefully and uh help me with this. Right. I'd like to make a motion that this request be approved pursuant to the staff recommendation uh listed on page 44. Resoning property would be consistent with the suburban residential land use areas and consistent with policies 2.1.1 2.1.6 and 2.3.2 as put forth by the Graham 2035 comprehensive plan with following conditions. Um the conditions that are stated requested by the uh petitioner as listed in the staff report with the addition of the fence. And then what else? the verbiage that verbiage that MC verbage that she was talking about with the

if you want to um take a step back as well. I mean if we want to actually like write this thing out and I guess get it in a clear consistent um discussion as well. I mean, I think that'd be beneficial as well because even when um we're talking about all the conditions that are listed inside of the the plan, I want to make sure again that we're not necessarily holding them to that um as we talked about before as well, which I mean I don't think there's a problem with what you said, but I think for trying to be specific for the whole ABA thing, like let's make sure that we're listing this out so we can provide an accurate Yeah. Well, it the APA thing and then the the hours

of operation. Are we looking for um just autism related therapy at this point? What she's asking for? That's totally up to you. That's the question. That the therapies be listed to autism related issues and the hours of operation be changed from allowed 7:30 to 8 7:30 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. by appointment only and by appointment only on the weekends as it states there within those hours. That covered that's got everything Liz. Would that cover you or you want some more specific language? because

I I just think I would prefer to say applied behavior analysis and then exclude the substance abuse disorder than limit it to just autistic services only because there may be children that fall outside of the autism range that do have some other something on that they have medically that is diagnosed that they may want to treat that is not technically considered autism and once again we would then have to ask them to come back to ask to treat that patient. So I know the substance abuse is where we're having that issue and I think if we can say applied behavior analysis therapy, however you want to word, but no substance abuse disorder excluding substance abuse disorder.

No, no to that. But I would just like to make it a little Therapies provided would be for autism for applied behavior analysis therapy analysis excluding any therapy related to substance any therapy related to substance abuse. All right. Got it. Ellie, can you put that back to us? All right. You had to come out for this tonight, didn't you? That's the first thing you make the fence first and then last. Oh, right. I was going to say I just want to make sure we got the fence in, right? 30 by 20 by 30 by 6 feet tall. Yeah, I said that.

Yeah. Yeah, but we went around and then we went back. So, I just want Yeah, that might we have a motion and uh is any further discussion? All right, there's a second. No, I'll second the motion. And all in favor? I. Any opposed? Sorry it took us so long to get there, but we want to make sure that you're able to operate. Thank you. I hope you have good. We We actually do listen to our constituents. Uhoh. We try. Thank you'all for coming. Thank you. Sometimes we get confused, but Lord knows we try. Right. I've lost my first page in my You're good. Papers. Let's go to Is it We got a

dwellings. Yes, sir. Of course. Um uh so the at the previous city council meeting um in I think it was January um a citizen uh attended the previous council meeting and requested that the city explore um the idea of adding in language addressing accessory dwelling units. Um language was drafted by staff based on previous discussions associated with accessory dwelling units. And that's essentially what you have in red in front of you. and the staff member or not the staff member but the uh citizen that came to the city council meeting is also um in the crowd with us tonight. Um so this isn't necessarily a public hearing but I don't think that there would be any issue with uh um him coming up and speaking if need be. So but um yeah essentially all the verbiage has been drafted and provided to you all. Um it may look a little familiar because this was pretty much not copy and paste but a lot of similar things that have came before. Um there's been discussion um surrounding whether or not any accessory dwelling unit language has been approved by the general assembly. It turns out that there is not any currently. Um there was one that was tried to be passed in 2023, but it got killed essentially at some senate committee hearing. Um, and they currently have Senate Bill 495 lingering around, but it's kind of in that same state of kind of being passed back and forth and is trending um in the same path. So, this essentially text amendment would allow for accessory dwelling units to um encompass on pretty much any residential lot here inside the city of Graham subject to the specifics um of the notes inside of here. We talked about this a couple years ago and I don't know maybe there's only three of us here. Everybody else is new. Chad might have been involved two years ago.

Chad was involved two years ago.

And u I see a lot of the same stuff that we talked about then is still here today. Uh one of my concerns were that if you you're designating that they have to have a separate water and sewer hookup. Yes sir. So if you look at um section N um it discusses for lots where primary dwelling is connected to water and sewer service then both the primary and accessory dwelling shall be connected to municipal municipal water and sewer service and each shall have its own separate water sewer and electrical meters. Um lots with septic system shall consult with Alamance County Environmental Health to determine the septic system can accommodate the accessory dwelling unit in addition to the primary dwelling. I I want to know why we're pushing that extra tap. It's one lot. Yeah.

And it's already got a water and sewer tap on it and we're going to push them to spend $6,000 to put in another water and sewer tap.

Yep. Totally understand. I think that's why this is included on here to initiate discussion. Um and is another reason why I brought the Senate bill along with me of drafted language. Um and essentially Senate bill states that is proposed. it's not been approved by any means is that it would require the city to not allow for them to install a separate a new meter. If the current capacity load for the private uh tap connection could serve accessory dwelling unit, then they would be able to be allowed to have that ability to connect to it privately. Um, but I think that capacity piece of it is definitely the most important that you would like to include inside of there is if there is effic sufficient enough capacity to serve that unit based on the private connection then it's fine.

What about the um read in here also that um who how how are we going to enforce rentals, short-term rentals? who's going to enforce that?

And so that was another one that was tossed in there just for more or less discussion piece because prior to the drafting of this, there was really no um language regarding some of this stuff. Um I know long-term rentals didn't seem to be an option, an an issue. Um of course, now with the ordinances that have been passed, all short-term rentals are required to get a zoning permit here through the city. Um, and essentially that would how the enforcement would apply is they would uh if they did not have it, they would receive a violation and then just have to fill out a zoning permit here with us.

Okay. But of course, as it states inside of here, it mentions that there shall not be any aspect of it. So, um, I understand where you're coming from that if they are having short-term, how exactly we're going to enforce that. Manufactured homes. I know what the definition of a manufactured home is, but I want to make sure that we're on the same page with you. Are you talking about a double wide? I'm talking about Yes, sir. Um, anything that meets our definitions of manufactured homes being wheel car title. Yes, sir. Any mobile home. So, the difference between manufactured and modular homes is there's two different modular is built off home and is still considered a single family residence by

NC building codes for single family. So, if they had a modular um accessory dwelling unit, that would be approved. Um, but if it was a mobile home, no sir. So the the current rate in tiny homes, where would that be classified? Modular? No sir, that is Oh, well, it's as long as it meets NC single family building code. It's classified as single family. Um, so that is currently where we're at and the city only permits for single family dwellings. So, if the tiny home did not meet the criteria for NC single family, um it would not be permitted and would likely have to be taken into consideration with maybe a manufactured home, I'd imagine. Right. I'm seeing a lot of advertisements for things like Tesla tiny homes

or these Chinese like ones you get off Amazon or something like that. Facebook, they're all over the place. So, the unfortunate part is they're going to have to get a building permit through us um in order to put these things out there. I mean, if they get the building permit and they have something like that that's just prefab brought in that you can fold up and do everything, it might not meet the single family building code, which we can't approve. But if it's under $30,000, does the city still require or is it $40,000? City still require building permit? So, if I want to build a building in my backyard over there and a 20 by 20, if I got to come get a building permit for the city,

I believe Miss Doll Miss Jolly may be able to answer. It's 12 x 12. Yeah. Is it 12 x 12? And I think those are just for and those are just for storage buildings, right? Like I think if it's any aspect of dwelling, any size, you're having to come through here the city because there's water, sewer, electric hookups that have to be reviewed or not reviewed but inspected by the staff out there. I also seen that there was another section in here and I'm just briefly I've read it two or three different times and didn't write my notes down like I should have. Um, I think it said in here no storage building could be used as an accessory dwelling. Is is that correct? Do you know which uh

JJ? Yep. Oh gosh, let me find it. J manufactured homes, shipping containers, RV, temporary structures, storage buildings, and similar structures shall not be permitted to become ADUs. So that's essentially what it says. I mean, I think it just and that might have been something that was discussed previously as well. Um, I think just from the aspect of a storage building, um, that is a storage building. Now, if you could upfit that storage building to meet single family building code, then it's no longer a storage building.

I think you already have them in the city that are being utilized that way. And I mean, I'm sure I know it be non-conforming use. Yeah. If this was to pass, it would be a non-conforming use. But I just noticed that that was in there. And I think we're getting ahead ahead of oursel here trying to push this through because I think the legislature have got something on the agenda to not allow accessory building. So what would you do on a third of an acre lot and how would it meet setbacks on a third of an acre lot? So, if we do do con something like this, I think we need to consider a square footage of the lot cuz we did consider a square footage of the house. Yeah.

It can only be 50% of the original dwelling. The size of it could only be 50% of the original dwelling. Mhm. So, I think we originally talked about on lot size it had to be an acre or a half acre or more.

Yeah. I believe that was something that was maybe even included at the city council level um whenever they had the discussion about it um and it got tabled and moved back was I think that's what they were saying is anything that's an acre is the only thing that's allowed to have it. Um, as for like I said, you're talking about getting ahead of the these things. But if something like this does get passed, the Senate bill does, we're eventually going to have to rewrite everything potentially to what their standards are, which essentially states that any lot inside the city or any municipality has to allow for accessory dwelling units. I think the one thing that we do have the ability of currently is the setback requirements which is essentially stating that the accessory dwelling unit has to meet the setback requirements that is required for a normal single family structure whereas you know sometimes with accessory uh buildings per se you're talking about they're only 5t off the rear inside property lines. Um and I think there's something else in here that essentially states you can't push it past the front line of the existing building as well. um which is also something that we don't permit for any other type of accessory buildings either. But um yeah, as for your non-conforming uh question, I think there is something inside of here that addresses the non-conformings is if they're currently out there and they don't meet our requirements, then yeah, they're grandfathered non-conforming uses and if they are subject to change, then they must meet our non-conforming standards of our development ordinance.

I'll take a break and allow somebody else to ask some questions. I got just so um because I'm going to try and keep a little bit of track of this as well so we can kind of uh you know have discussion. You mentioned potentially the one acre of the maximum lot size or minimum lot size. Um you talked about water taps and sewer taps being be able to be essentially off of the existing structure. Um but I mean I guess you would still want to leave the option in there if they do want to have an extra meter. They can do that. Um which is fine. Um, I I don't I'm not opposed to that. But what I I I just if we're going to approve something like this, let's don't hinder Yeah, for sure.

someone from being able to utilize the water meter that if they think it's adequate for them and they can get by with their 3/4 tap. I I think we shouldn't hinder them if we if we're going to approve something like this uh and add that unnecessary expense. Yeah. Now, does it bolster and build our water and sewer plant and help there? It does. for the impact fees of actually installing. But it's the same amount of water is going to be used whether it comes through 1 meter or whether it comes through 2 meters. The second thing is is in here there was another thing that talked about addresses. Yes. Why do we want to assign another address to the same parcel of land? Because it can't be off the same partial. Why do we want to try to assign another address?

I think that's specifically for um probably emergency service purposes. Um, if there's a building in the back, I think every single family dwelling or any type of dwelling is going to have to have an address associated with it. It's still one partial of land, but it's a separate building. It's the same thing. You could say the same thing for town homes or even multif family developments. I mean, all of those have to have their own specific addresses associated with them even though they're on a single lot. So, are you saying a detached garage would have to have an address? The what?

A detached garage on someone's property. They got a house in a detached garage and are you saying it should have another address? Not necessarily, sir, because it's not classified as a dwelling anymore. If it's an a detached garage or an attached garage that has no aspect of, um, you know, uh, address or use of dwelling aspects, it's not going to have to have any bit of an address from our 911 services, probably from the fire department. Look, it's hard enough to get a an address for a piece of property to begin with, and not saying so in the city, but in the county. I've got some property here in the county and because I don't have a house on it or at the time didn't have a permit from the environmental y

health for a septic system, the county didn't want to give me an address for a 20 acre track of land.

I I think that is based on their standards. I think we adhere to all that stuff inside the city of Graham here too. All of our addressing comes from the county. It comes from Katie Harper. Yep. In my relationship with Katie Harper, she has been relatively responsive to getting uh addresses for new homes, also for reviewing plats for subdivisions. I think, you know, she does a relatively good job over there of getting those addresses addressed. I mean, Debbie works with her a lot as well. Um, but I think addressing really just boils down to the requirement from probably the fire department and public safety. Um, same thing as if they're required to have uh, you know, if they do have a new meter out there or what if they're getting new trash cans. Um those trash cans are need to be tied to an address as well. So

yeah, I'm gonna let him talk. So suggestion maybe if you're talking about an additional address to the same piece of property, uh for instance, say it's 100 Border Street and you have another dwelling on that same property, you would have 100 Border Street A and 100 Border Street B. That depends on what the county would address it. Yes, sir. That totally they won't do that anymore. It to we don't have any impacts over the addressing here inside the city of Graham. It would all boil down to what the county requires with their addressing.

I I agree with a lot of what we're talking about. But here's a good prime example. My address on Moore Street, I've got one address there is 483 and I've got another address is right beside my partial that used to be my partial that's 586. Mhm. Police are never going to find it. 483 and 586. and they're side by side. Yes, sir. We're creating a nightmare.

Okay, I understand. Um, like I said, I'm just providing y'all with the information of what staff is deemed to be I mean, not necessarily appropriate, but things that should be discussed in regards with this. I don't know if if you all feel that the addressing requirement is not necessary inside of here. I would just make a suggestion that you include that in your motion whether to approve or deny to include or remove it. Okay, thank you for that. But I what I'm really getting at is something that's already the city is pretty much built out. Yeah. And we're talking about adding on a lot, not a lot, another dwelling on the same property. So when Katie Harper has the problem over there getting an address close by, it's going to create a nightmare for our police department, fire department because let's just use Webster Road. Yeah. There's no other land on Webster Road. So all the addresses are gone on Webster Road. So now when you go in there, somebody at the first of Webster Road, which might be 231, and Webster Road might go to 600 block,

she comes in there and she gives you an address of 550 and you're 231, the police will never find it. It's uh it's something that we need to that's something that if it's going to be considered by council, if council is going to prove it, that we need to address that factor because it's going to be a big problem. Everybody uses a cell phone now. Everybody don't have a landline where it shows up. So when you call 911, your cell phone shows up and yes, they can ping your phone and show you where you're at. But physically, can they tell you that you're at 586 West Moore Street versus 483? I don't know. I think it's definitely beneficial to have an address to tell somebody rather than say I'm don't know where I'm at because this building doesn't have an address. Does the city have any input on A, B, C, and D?

No, sir. Because it's all through the county. So that that's where I think the problem going to be if you could label it as 483A 483B. Yeah. Okay. You can find that. Yes, sir. Totally understand. That's where that's one of my big concerns. Yes, sir. I've talked it up for 10 minutes. Let somebody else have it. Sure. I'm gonna get the gentleman in the back, too. Ricky, do you want to I can answer a couple your address question. That's I used to do it for the county. Um, the reason the new address get you to use the mic, sir.

The reason a new address has to be assigned is by Duke Kennedy. They require every address meter has to have its own address. That's the That's the reason. And for the alphabetical characters, the US Postal Service does not allow alphabetical characters anymore. They did away with them. That's the reason they did away with uh with mailboxes on the side of the road and started making people put in game boxes so they actually have a physical address. Well, with that response of you saying just the letters A, B, and C. Yes, sir. So, if it was 100 border, now it's 100-1 border.

No, can't do that. So the only other thing that they physically could do is do a gang box at the driveway. Just take the first physical number and do a gang box of whatever. All right. My question is with what you guys are proposing um how will it affect um subdivisions that who have covenants? We we do not want this in any subdivision that has a covenant. That's another good question because how would that be enforced? So if it was approved, how would that be enforced? Cameron,

because because if you set the precedence, it goes beyond what the covenants the city takes precedence over the covenants. So there was something and of course I don't know why it's not inside of here, but there was something essentially that stated all that was included on here. It is. It is. It is. Okay. I was about to say because I essentially pulled this from the state statute and it says, you know, nothing in this section shall apply to any of the following. The validity or enforcability of private covenants or other contractual agreements among property owners related to dwelling type restrictions. Your natural HOAs. If your HOA covenants say that you can't have an accessory dwelling unit, that trumps everything inside of our development ordinance. Okay. Thank you.

And and sir, I've seen you you've been here quite a while or you here just for this what we're talking about. Okay. Good. I'd like to hear from you, too. You want to come up and put some input in here and we might answer some of our questions. It might lead us to something different. State your name?

Uh Todd Mundy. Uh 1624 Granada Lane. You're in Graham. So, um yeah, I've just kind of been hanging out, listening to you guys. I appreciate you guys having this discussion. Um I came last month and spoke with them. We have uh we're down Rogers Road and we have about six acres just under. Um, we're looking at building a cottage for our son. He and his uh fiance are getting married in June and so we were looking at b building a cottage and I talked to these guys about permitting and you know you can't we weren't allowed to to build another home and we were and you brought up like shed homes and that's kind of what we're looking at doing. We have uh cottage plans. We are going to have it's Liberty sheds. They're going to actually custom build it for us. not it's not gonna not gonna bring it in in a truck and then we're just gonna make it into a a perfect home for them. So, um but and we've looked at the statutes of like the edge of your your yard or for us kind of the our property lines has to be close to I think like uh road frontage. We've looked at that. we so that they can get because we have um we have septic with our home because when we built 10 years ago, the city would not bring us sewage without $40,000 extra. So, we put a septic in and uh it's done fine, but we would have to have sewer for this house and electricity, all that. So, I mean, we kind of we want to make sure that we go by all the standards here. Um, we want to go by all the standards of course, but you know, and I don't know if there's a special use or if we could at least get this thing kind of going, but we've just kind of held off everything because we also know people that have a garage 200 feet from their house and there's an apartment there and people live there, you know, all year round. So, we're trying to do it the right way. We obviously want to come to you guys and try to get it accomplished. So,

and you're trying to do this without subdividing the land. Yes, sir. and we looked at that, but it's very expensive to do that and there's um I mean we know there's going to be expenses. We're just trying to help them out a little bit. So, thank you. I'm glad you was here to give us your input on that. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you guys. Anyone have any questions for Mr. Monday? Thank you. Thanks. All right. Who wants to take the role and roll on with this? And I'm talking about discuss this further. If you guys got questions, you have I've got one Cameron for uh one question for Cameron. Yes, sir. I see short-term rental and long-term rental, but I don't see a definition.

Uh because those are listed out inside of our development ordinance already. What are they? Okay, one second.

Three months, six months short term, is a year short term? That's that's the question. Yeah. So, short-term rentals is a furnished dwelling that is rented as a whole uh for periods of less than 30 days consecutively for compensation. Um these should be rented for traveling activities including but not limited to vacation, leisure, recreation or employment. Um and not including hotels, motel, boarding homes or bed and breakfastes. And I think, you know, really the only reason why I included this in here was to initiate discussion um to include probably the highest maybe potential level of uh regulation over this to see where I guess the ball fell in in y'all's court on something like this. So, um seen it elsewhere where it's not permitted to be any type of rental outside of long-term um and figured it was worth the discussion. Yes, sir. All of the um ones that are listed inside of there are defined by our development ordinance.

Okay. Should we refer back to that as defined or is that just assumed? Um let's see. I think you could definitely refer back to it in regards to um let's see where we I'm looking for clarification. That's all. Yeah. No, I'm uh certainly happy to provide it. Um yeah, I mean I think it already says it inside of here. Accessory dwelling units shall not be used for blah blah blah defined by section 10.16 of the city of Grand Development ordinance. Thank you. Yes, sir. Sure. I'll go my telephone. Don't worry. I know. Ask Elizabeth what she did.

I was getting a little nervous about the feet. Aliens.

Aliens. Sounded like it. I I I don't know if to I'm gonna make myself sound young generationally wise. I think that these have become a lot more prevalent. Um, so I had some fun reading and these are already allowed in Mebban in Lexington obviously you know places like Raleigh and Chapel Hill and I know we don't want to become those areas but there's a lot of talk of aging in place um aging and allowing your family to come and live with you and be nearby and I think that's something that I um appreciate about this there. I do have some concerns. So something I noticed and I know that we took this language and I don't know obviously every municipality is different but we have attached dwelling units we have within uh or detached within and a lot of them reference attached dwelling units. So the addition onto a primary dwelling that would be then considered an ADU and I don't know how if that's something that we want to consider or something we want to explicitly state that we're not allowing. Um, if you look at Lexington's, the drawings that they've provided on that would allow people to add on to their actual home and consider that an ADU. Um, and I think that's fairly common across other municipalities. It's not necessarily it's different than within because within can be adding a separate entrance. Um, and I think also for me, we don't have any mention of allowing an ADU to be a garage or a studio or a workshop. So that is also something that I am seeing a lot is having a garage, a shop on the left and then the addition of a home on the right. And I think, you know, we keep saying the storage building thing. I want to make sure that that is clarified out that we're saying you could or could not. I don't know which way what we feel but that if someone wants to build storage on the left and a home on the right we are allowing that.

That's correct. I think the only thing that um would have to come into play it depends on which comes first I guess as well because if the house is there um our accessory buildings we only permit for like 20% of the rear yard. Um but that's for any type of accessory building that's on the land. So that would come into play as well for the buildings. And then I think I personally find 1600 square feet to be a very large maximum. Mebban caps theirs at 1,000 square feet. So that's something I would feel more comfortable limiting that maximum probably to,200 square feet.

So I'm going to jump back to your attached I guess right. So, um, essentially what you're saying is the way it's currently written inside of here, it should be referenced in a way that is not within a principal single dwelling or attached. Send you what I read.

The way that they had reported it is it's you have within, attached, and detached. So, there are three separate ADU types. And I I just think it that it almost came down to the difference in build and um access. And so we say right that you're not allowed to have it extend past the front of the home, but when they were doing attached ADUs, you could extend it as far to the side as you wanted as long as you reach those setbacks. And they're still meeting the setback requirements for one of

I just they had separated out different from within. So, I'll send it to you just for the difference in how they worded within versus attached versus detached.

Okay. Yeah. I like I said, I think um based on what we've provided here, it's kind of um hitting both of those. I think it's really just boiled down to whatever is attached or within is requiring their own particular entrance into the building that is not subject to the initial or the primary dwelling itself. Um, you know, my my thought at least was that they're both kind of in their own because if it's within or it's attached that requirement of having your own singular access that is not directly related to the primary dwelling kind of meets that criteria in my eyes. That's what I thought too and then I read it and I was like, "Okay,

sure. We can you send it to you own to separate but or you could just say that we're not allowing anything within and it has to be attached.

Come out.

Um, let's do the let's do the languages proposed first." uh 10.252.3 item G 50% of the heated gross floor area with a maximum of 16%. If a home on a certain piece of property is 5,000 square feet, they want to build a modest to scale slightly smaller half scale that's 2500 square feet. I don't I don't necessarily know where we are in establishing a maximum that a private citizen can do with their land if their land accommodates it. Uh moving to next section, same section item J. Uh manufactured home, shipping containers, RVs, temporary structure, storage buildings and similar structures shall not be permitted to become ADUs. Maybe we embellish or did add to the end of that sentence unless they are brought to the standards for North Carolina building codes for single family.

I think that's fair because we're with building houses out of shipping containers putting manufactured homes on permanent foundations and and put modular homes.

We're putting modular homes on permanent foundations. Item M. Uh, I think um I think we already got to the specific definition of short-term as 30 days as long as that's referenced in the UDO and maybe incorporated into this by reference so that the next citizen that looks at this immediately knows what short-term is defined in the city of Graham. So, you're saying to establish like if beside that short-term parenthesis 30-day rentals or or the reference to the definition of short-term rentals within the city of Grahams UDO. So, that if that definition changed, this piece of language wouldn't necessarily have to.

So, you don't think I guess because it references back to our definition section um where you would then of course have to search through that definition section for short-term rentals. I just don't know if there's another way unless you want to specifically define it inside of this, but then I feel like you'd have to define every single one of them by mistake. It's defined as tight as we can get it for the average researcher to find. Yes, sir. All right. I'm sorry.

You're fine. Um item N. I take exception to the ability to um enforce additional burden on a homeowner, a mother-in-law, a grandma. Uh if we're if we're trying to provide affordable housing in the framework of that affordability, we would then encumber the potential development with another water meter, another sewer service and the design that comes into that and the construction of such. So, I I've had a an edit to item N that where capacity would suffice um within the city that those accessory dwelling units could ad hoc or piggyback or continue on with the services provided to the primary structure. However, it is uh very important to consult with the Alamance County Health Department when there are systems that are served by on-site soils. In the event that those additional bedrooms cause a capacity problem, you would want a professional to look at that. A 4in service can handle a lot of sewer. Uh a 6,000 square foot septic field in a three or four bedroomedroom house is is about all you're going to get. So, I think we're um we need to edit item N.

Yes, sir. I totally understand that. I think that's feasible. Section 10.252.4. This is where we're inside the structure. Yeah. Uh I still think that the 50% 1600 square f feet is none of our business.

Yes, sir. I think that's uh that is y'all's prerogative. And then now that we've addressed the specific language or or the way this uh piece would be written, there are a lot of historical references at least in my short time on on the earth uh where many bright people were raised in an accessory dwelling unit and uh many families were able to survive. have because of that. Um, I can take personal examples of citizens in within a 100 mile radius of of the chambers that are able to survive u in a storage shed because they don't have a better place to live. I can I can personally attest to some of the most brilliant people um living in substandard housing. What we as citizens of of Graham would consider substandard housing. Uh so in no way want to encourage that. But I do think that the u ability for a private property owner to build an accessory dwelling unit since we've given it a name or a place to live for an additional member of their family or for a tenant that may provide income. If that can be accomplished in a way that doesn't violate an existing uh deed covenant, an existing neighborhood covenant, and it doesn't endanger or burden either the private water and sewer system for that given lot or the public system that serves it through the city, then that ought to be left to the private property owner. And then I'll pause there for Tony's opportunity.

I'm okay and I'll finish.

Well, Mr. Chairman, I I don't really have much to say at this point. I think uh Mr. Hines has covered basically every point that needs to be addressed. My my main concern is to be able to to provide adequate housing for our seniors. And if a homeowner has a way to provide that in the on the same property um without having to endure financial hardship to do this, I think we need to address it uh in a similar terms of what Mr. Huffine said. I think the uh comments that have been forthcoming are are very very good, very I would agree with what's been said. I also have a concern as tell me your name again, please.

Yes, Mr. Monday's comments. Uh Six Acres wants to put a ADU for his family. I see a lot, as I mentioned earlier, of of advertisements for these small homes, whether they're the tiny homes on wheels or whether the manufactured like the Tesla home. That's that's an up andcoming thing. I think that's going to be a very prominent thing in the days to come, especially with the cost of housing, cost of mortgages, and that sort of thing. Uh I'm I'm very much in favor of of finding the best way to accommodate not only seniors but people who are just getting started, that sort of thing. I' I've often thought of getting some acres, five, 10 acres, having all my kids there as well. This allow me to do that without subdividing as it stands. No. No. I bear the cost of subdividing that property. Probably I could probably do it. But, you know, that may be a burden for a lot of people. I just think we ought to give consideration for what the market is looking at down the road. Not only now, but down the road in the ways that we can not hinder people's getting good housing. Chad has commented. I've seen I've seen that same thing, Chad, numerous numerous cases. Um, I think what we can do as a board to help provide help encourage good affordable housing. Well, time well spent. That's I I'm not necessarily I I think I'm in agreement of what's been said, but I think we ought to consider that as well. But it says

manufacturing home, shipping containers, RVs. Know a guy's living not inside the city. I know a couple older couple who's doing just exactly that. He's living in an RV, a big RV, very nice RV, but he's sitting on his son's driveway. May be a lot of people who could who could live and live comfortably like that. I don't know that I could. I don't know that my wife could, but I don't know that we need to hinder if that's all you could afford. That's exactly right.

I don't think we need to be hindering people. Well, I guess, you know, currently there is that hindrance, right? And that's where we're coming into play with this to remove that to an some ability, I guess, right? So it's we can try and tick all the boxes. Um but you know what goes through my mind is what you allow on one lot you have to allow on every other one here inside the city of Grammar. I understand the the the basis from which this is is written. I understand that and and sympathize with it. But I think a larger concern would be how can we encourage affordable housing. I

think this is a step in the right direction. And I think with Chad's addition to that section J um adding on to the N unless brought into standard of the NC single family building code that then again allows you to take that storage shed that you may be living in and actually get an address for it. Be able to get mail at this location, take your trash out. Now you start to feel like you're actually living inside of a home that's been upfit. So exactly. Yeah. And I I would agree with what Chad added to that wholeheartedly. I was going to ask is the manufacturing modular home. They're the same modular is built to North Carolina building code, right?

A manufacturers built to HUD code, which is not the North Carolina building code. Code. Okay. That's what I So, it's mobile. It's on a frame. It comes with a car title. And once you set it on a piece of property, and you set it on permanent foundation, you send the title in. Right. One's a house, one's a mobile home. Essentially. Essentially. My I got another question about the um He's got six acres. I've got six acres right over here in Graham. So, I put my one accessory dwelling on. Next year, I decide I want to go in there and subdivide. Okay. I subdivide and now am I entitled to another accessory dwelling? That's a brand new lot. Yes, sir.

So, essentially I could create Well, yeah, you would definitely Yes. Thank you, Miss Debbie. I appreciate it. So that So I put a $10,000 tiny house out there, $15,000 tiny house, and then I'm entitled to another accessory build. That's correct. What are we creating? It sounds like more density housing. I agree with the affordable housing part of it, but it sounds like density. A lot of density.

I think if you look at anything inside of our development ordinance, there's ways to get around it in a way that could benefit somebody in that capacity. Um, you know, it definitely takes a clever person looking through our developer to find that way to benefit them, but um, it just comes with the territory, I imagine. I mean, you know, if you start trying to get into the weeds like that much, you're talking about a lot of things that have to be in place regulation wise that probably need to be addressed on a larger scale with the grand UDO aspect because you're talking about subdivision time subdivisions like this whole minor subdivision stuff that we talked about, you know, is that where we're talking about you can't subdivide until x amount of time, things along those lines. I mean, are you going to put a time restraint? If you do subdivide, you are not allowed to put an accessory dwelling on it for the next six years. I mean, that's stuff that you could put in here, but it's really it's it's not what the meaning, I guess, of it is.

And and I'm not trying to hinder Yeah. But we as government has a tendency to do a lot of overreaching in my opinion. We're wanting to require a separate water meter, sewer tap. We're want a separate power meter. All that comes with cost. Yes, sir. If we're really promoting affordable housing and I've got a 400 amp service over there and I can run another house and it meets the city's inspection when they come out and inspect, why should I be in having to put another meter?

And I think that's a totally fair statement. Like I said, it was really only put on there to the highest extent for this discussion to happen because if I don't put it on there and the question arises or doesn't get brought up and then it's after the fact, why didn't we require this? So, it's easier to come down than it is to go up after the fact. Um, and I think that's more like I'm totally in agreement with you. And I think that's what the first draft of this essentially said and that I think it later got reviewed and maybe people wanted to have that extra tap meter and fee associated with it. For what it sounds like, they are going to have to have another electrical their own single electrical based on what Mr. Hall was saying because that's required for their address. But if we can reduce the requirement for water and sewer, then that's one piece of it. I mean, I that's not not for us over here. So,

why do we have to in why do we have to include you getting another address? That's that's a requirement. The city don't have to require that if they're going to run off the same electrical service, the same water service, the same city don't have to require. So, why are we pushing that? I think it is required. I mean, if you're pulling a building permit, your power up. You could use my present address. That's what I'm saying. Yes, they will. I've done it numerous times. You must have No, no, no, no, no, no. Uh,

what they tell us? We have to have action. I just got power from that 20 acres the other week and the county was going to get me an address. I said, "Okay." I called Duke Hendry. They said, "Well, you got to have address." I said, "I don't want hours, but nothing more than a light out here on my property. I want a light." But they they they're charging me for the light. I don't have no address. So, welling unit, the house that we're saying that house is safe to move into,

but we're going to allow that. I understand. I hear you, Miss J. I'm not arguing with you, but I hear you. We're going to allow someone to build a house on a property that already has an address. If I built a shop on my property and I called Duke Energy and I said, "Hey, I want you to set a meter out here on the side of my shop," they'd come set it. But because we're going to say that it is a dwelling that someone's going to live in, they're going to say, "Well, no. if I got my permit from the city to build the shop building that I'm talking about and I wasn't telling you guys I was living in it or nothing like that and y'all come and inspected my shop and I had my one light switch and one receptacle within six feet of the door,

people would come set a meter there. So that's what I'm thinking is that Have you ever seen that chair? Yeah, I won't have any trouble getting meters. I I want to I don't want to delay this Mr. Monday out here because I know what he's trying to do. He'd like to get started as soon as he can, but there's questions that need to be answered and Okay. So, where is the addressing piece in this language? I'm I'm having trouble finding it. No, you're fine. I think it's um

the very last one. Uh M essentially it states anyone seeking an accessory dwelling unit in a freestanding or that's for the freestanding one or anyone seeking an accessory dwelling unit in a freestanding structure shall coordinate with the Alamance County GIA addressing and city of Graham Emergency Service to ensure any address to be assigned will work for all agencies. That's that's that's none of our business. That's up to the county. We don't even have a we're going to have fun. Whether we include him or not include M the is irrelevant because that process has to happen.

That has been my understanding that if you were building a house and you are pulling a permit that you have to get an address. The same thing if there's a vacant lot and you want to put a house on it, you are reaching out to the Alamance County Department to get an address for that house so we can permit it. Correct. So to Dean's point, why is that in this ordinance? Just to let people know. I think it's a reference point to let them know that you have to get it. So that they're not assuming that you I can just build this back here and not have to get any emergency services stuff or address. It doesn't say we'll have to get an address. It says you shall coordinate with Alamance County. And that's perfect because the county county addressing is who's going to assign the address based on EMS or based on Duke Energy.

You can put it on your building permit when you apply for it. I don't think we have to worry about him. I think it's a benign piece that alerts the citizen. to get an address when it's applicable. Talking about two different places. It's O in 255.3 and then Oh, yeah. One's O and one's M. One's for the interior and one's for the exterior. Yeah, it's listed on both. Yeah, it's on both. Okay. Okay. Because even your interior unit is or attached unit is going to have to have an address for itself, too.

So, you could leave O and M alone. That would take us to the size or scale or in in most jurisdictions it would be simply based on what coverage. How much can the land itself accommodate? The massing of a structure in percentage based on square footage. It's just a tool. You could build a rectangular piece of oddball threetory structure that grossly outmasses and outscales the primary structure like a silo in the back of a farmhouse. You see the silo but you don't necessarily see the house. Uh I think the point is you don't want the accessory dwelling unit to become the primary dwelling unit. And I think that's where the percentage up to 50%.

For someone who lives in the Peach Tree LLC healthcare house before it became a store, that would have been a,00 foot house before they closed in the front porch.

Was it's tough to live in a 550 foot house. I mean, people are doing it nowadays and they call them the tiny home, but the 50% cap on a small house is is prohibitive. Um whereas the 1,600 square f feet cap is arbitrary. However, to Dean's point, you are governing and there has to be some type of framework. I'm open to any any kind of help here. Uh I'm floundering with the percentages. Yeah. Yeah. And the cap if but they're both necessary. If I can quantified correctly. Sorry, Cameron.

No, no, no. I was out of turn. I mean, I'm thinking of like say for instance, you're on an R seven lot and you have a home that is X amount of size and you have enough area in the rear to build the exact same size home. Is that what this ADU dwelling or this accessory dwelling unit is trying to accomplish, I guess, in y'all's eyes? because at that point it's not really an accessory dwelling anymore. It's a two single family homes on a single lot. Um and I think that's where our thought process is this is just for accessory purposes. This is not for you can have two family on one lot um and sell them both as is. Um I think it's just specific to that lot. And that's like I said for you're talking about density and the amount of housing outside of there. Um, as I mentioned earlier, I mean, our storage buildings, we only permit for 20% in the rear yard, but that only encompasses the rear yard. What if they want to put it in the side? Um, so it could be a matter of you're taking just a percentage of lot area that they have outside of there, but that lot area could also constitute that that house is going to be the exact same size as the one that's built out there.

Let's let's be revolutionary for a second and and simplify the language and see where it goes. Yeah. The accessory dwelling unit shall not exceed the size of the primary dwelling unit.

I mean, I'm with you there, but that could also be it's one square foot less. That's exactly right. Okay. And it makes it a secondary structure and let some some other board or some other legislator or some uh someone with more knowledge or common sense than than I do. But if it's a sec, if it's a secondary structure and it's not bigger than the primary structure, then Hey guys, I've got another question. Where it goes?

When we're talking about the accessory ADUs within a principal single family dwelling, what's going to be the determining factor that says this is an ADU within an existing building or just an addition to a house? Certainly an example at more street and I think there's a what because I'm trying to make make sure I understand here because there is are you talking about like because we do have duplexes right house okay

and I want to add on to that I've got plenty of room plenty of land but in my mind it's eventually going to be something I can move into and my kids move into my house. Mhm. It's going to be what we used to call a mother-in-law suite. Yes, sir.

Okay. So, when I build this, what's going to be the determining factor that says that building is going to come under this as opposed to just regular building code? Whether you want it to be or not, I think that's really what it boils down to is if you want to have an addition onto your home that is not private to the existing structure inside of there and it's just an extra area that has no aspects of a separation from the primary dwelling and it doesn't have another form of access to it, then I think that's essentially what separates. If I put if I build this, it's going to have an outside entrance cuz, you know, it's big and I don't want to have to go all the way through the house to get out. So, it's going to have an exterior entrance.

Mhm. Um, and it could very well be as big as the uh the primary dwelling. If is it going to be it probably have a kitchen in it? Would that that be the determining factor? It would definitely another kitchen. Okay. This is going to be a separate dwelling unit.

Yeah. I think it really just boils down to that aspect of separation and whether or not it meets um what does it say inside of here? Um uh its own exterior access any interior access to the principal dwelling use must be lockable from both dwellings. So I mean if you're not providing I mean if it's not being used as separate and it's really being used for your own personal aspect um I don't think it's going to be viewed as an accessory dwelling unit. It's just going to be additional onto the home. Um but if you want to create it as an accessory dwelling unit that's attached, then you could certainly do that by meeting these standards as well. Doesn't that fall under how it's connected?

Yeah, I think that's what was mentioned is uh you know, if there's a separation between the two and there's a clear intention of separating one family from the the next, then yes, sir. I mean, I think that definitely the definition of the connection is it an outdoor corridor with a roof? Uh from what it says inside of here, it is an uh an outdoor where is exactly that? Uh its own exterior access and any interior access of the principal dwelling unit must be locked from both dwellings. So like I said, if it's which section here ABCD what? What was that? What section? What section? What section are you asking for?

Yeah. What what alphabetical section? G is it G G 10- 2-5

creating a bunch of duplexes. Yeah, that's what we're doing with create a bunch of duplex lots. Creating a bunch of duplexes. I think so. That's fair. We haven't even talked about the barn dominions and right and I think also the main reason behind pushing for a separate meter and the water is for tax purposes. I don't think I have any any instance over tax purposes. I think I mean I'm just it was literally just inside the book there that Okay, I understand that as well. But my that'd be what the county to me would be pushing this envelope. The county. Yes, sir. Okay, I understand.

What do we need to do to move this along or not move it along? It's going to be difficult to move it along tonight and we either can send it on to the council and let the council battle with it as he wrote it or we can try to tackle it or we can table it and bring it back next month. Uh I think it needs some work by us. I do too. Have to bring that back. There's a way to to make something work. We just got to get the best version of it. Okay. That's what y'all want. Does anybody disagree with what I'm good with that. I think it does need some work. Does anybody think that we should tackle this and take action on it tonight? So, how would you like it to be addressed? I guess if it needs work, what would you like me to do?

I guess we're going to have to go through here and pick what we can live with and what we can't live with and see what kind of consensus that we get to move. So, I'm asking what you would like to task me to do in regards to this. Is there anything that I can do to currently update it or is it all going to come from your review between now and the next meeting? I mean, we certainly would love to have your input, but we got we got your input right here. And that's pretty much about it. So, like I said, I think it's just uh to have that discussion. So, if y'all don't think what I've written is sufficient enough, then you were certainly uh the board to do that.

I I know there is a a purpose here and I think there may be a way to achieve it. But I know that two years ago when it come before it was a unanimous decision that this board turned it down and kicked it up to the council and then the council voted it down really and then now we're coming back and council's pushing for this to be revisited with no direction. I don't think there was any push from city council. I think it was a request on behalf of a property owner for city council to assess or have staff take a look at it again. Um, and I thought it said on behalf of city council.

Yeah. From a person of the public and that city council has requested that staff review and draft something. I there's some there's a lot of there's a potential way this could work. We just got to get to it. Okay. If y'all feel comfortable. It's needed. It's needed. We got to get to it. But how are we going to get there? I don't know. because I mean I don't agree with a lot of this and I could strike out a bunch of it right now and okay so I'm good with the rest of it but everybody else is gonna have their own what they can live with and what they can't live with. That's perfectly fine with me. I'd like to give the board

just in the interest of time, I I would suggest that we uh table this this evening and then everybody who's found something that they would like to see changed, write it down, bring it back next month and we can we can iron it out then. And if you get your stuff done in a timely manner, I'm not saying you have to work on it 24 hours a day. If you would if you would send it to Cameron so Cameron could maybe get something typed up where everybody could be reading it. Just to me, by the way, just to me to everybody. Don't send it out and don't send it back out as a response where everybody sees it. Send it directly to Cameron and let Cameron send it out. Happy to do that. Ladies and gentlemen, throw it all in one package.

Cameron, I'll make a mo a motion that we table this item. Uh, as discussed, all in favor? Any opposed? All right, Cameron, let's get this last one. I'm on y'all at this point. I don't think I have to address anything. Yeah, I don't think you'll be Mr. Could you stay the rest of the night with us? No, I've already seen him. So, the wording already be there. All right, Mr. Wooten. Thank you, Mr. Mundy. Thank you, Mr. M. Thank you.

Yes, ma'am. I think it's uh back up to y'all. Um I made the edits that y'all requested at the last meeting. Um and there was discussions about um the whole aspect of section seven and also some discussion of boundaries and uh um also some discussion of outreach. Um and so I'd once again turn it over to you all for your review and edits of our future land use plan draft. Thank you. Mr. Wooten, would you like to start on this?

I would indeed. And I'll try to keep these remarks brief. If you look at page 64, as you're turning, let me just preface these remarks with a comment that I I've I've shared before. I've done dozens, maybe hundreds, either written or contributed to presentations like this in the past. You come to a section like this, there's usually a question that you ask the requesttor. I've had this for both internal and external clients. Do you want this section to be a true comparison and contrast or do you want it to be a foregone conclusion? And what I'm looking at right here to me strikes me as a foregone conclusion. There was an ideology that they started with and then they wrote the comparison to reflect that ideology. Uh if you look at 7.1 u it's it uh diminishes the importance or use of whatever you want to call it of strip development as opposed to commercial center. Uh those statements that it makes the bullet points could be accurate but I think it's incomplete. Personally, I like being able to get off out of my driveway, get out of my neighborhood and hit the State Farm Agent on, you know, South Main Street, go few doors down, go to True Line, go through the uh Little Connect, go to Food Line, maybe get lunch at uh, you know, one of those little restaurants there. I mean, there's there's a use. There's a a good thing. I like being able to park in front of Food Line 20t from the door, especially when it's raining. Uh, you know, I look at this uh strip center right across the street. You know, I

like the restaurants over there. It's nice looking. Could be better. But I think this uh this comparison is not really an accurate. It's it's a conclusion drawing you to except the commercial center. I would say the same thing. If you look at the next page 7.2, it it has the same kind of feel to it. back in the uh data section. I think it clearly indicates that we have been for some time and are continuing to be a bedroom community. People leave here and go other places to work. Uh people come in here to work. Quite frankly, the u the unconnected roads or culde-sacs uh every city that I've I've lived in, those were the prime lots. Those were the lots that people hit first. Those commanded the most money because they were lowest traffic. Your kids could play out on the in the street. My wife grew up on a street like this. U you know dusk to dawn. I mean it was a it was a playground. It was a place for community place for neighborhood to get together. I grew up in a in a neighborhood that looked like the one there on the right. No road network. lived on a busy street, didn't much care for her. Little girl next door to us, ran out in the street, got killed because she was chasing a ball on that kind of thing. Now, there's some good things that are said by by both of those, you know, sets of bullet points, but I don't think it's accurate. I think there's room for both, just like I think there's room for both of the uh commercial and the strip development. Same thing. I could go ahead 7.3 and then 7.4 the same kind of an idea. It's a foregone conclusion that mixed

use is better. Open space development is better. I'm not advocating one or the other. I think both are legitimate. Both are necessary and we need to to be aware of that one grammatical error. um Cameron that I would point out to you on 73 on page 66 the right hand side the third line down concept of mixed use goes back to a time before zoning when many uses were not where were found in a neighborhood um I grew up in in Memphis Tennessee there were a lot ofh places like this mixed use people had a store downstairs people lived up above it's You don't see this much anymore. It's it's very uncommon nowadays. What you see is separation of uses mostly. Is that a good thing? Not necessarily good or bad, just the way it is. Now, again, we can look across the street. You can see the strip center and you can see the uh buildings just on the uh northwest corner over there. It's combination here, you know, right outside our door. Both are good. One of the things I could say concerning mixed use, the thing when I saw that picture, I thought immediately of Mount Ary, the main street, all these storefrs, beautiful storefronts, wonderful shopping center, but to get to parking, you had to walk 10 minutes. Heaven helped you. If your wife had been on a binge and you had five dozen packages in your hand, you had to make that walk back to the parking lot. Like I said, I like being 10 steps away from the front door food line. I like both of them. I think there's a place for both of them. I don't think we should be

promoting one as as opposed to the other. what I think we should what we should be doing is finding for any given spot the best use. So that that was all I want to say. I just comment that uh I think it really should be a good honest comparison and not this foregone conclusion. So that that's all I had to say about that. Thanks. Come on now. I've talked enough. I got a lot more to talk about. But Mr. Bailey, go ahead, Mr. Tai.

I'm sorry. Uh, I'll just immediately bring our attention to the future land use map on page 63 and the um I'll just say it again. The the the need to have it consistent with what is actually taking place or what is actually proposed to take place or what is likely to take place in the next 10 years. I'm going to take it home and mark it up and be a whole lot more helpful to you than I am right now with areas that are designated as certain types of districts or future uses. I mean, is there anywhere in particular off top of your head?

Yeah, there's specific places that are in conservation easements for in perpetuity that will never be industrial or mixed use or educational or employment districts. Um, somehow that information has got to get into the hands of the author of this and and I guess I'm the gap bridger in that case. think that's I'll just take it on myself to to try to help you get it as accurate as possible. Um I mean I understand because you don't know um and it would take Sorry. No, no, no, you're fine. Um it would just take research of the deeds to to figure that out and it's it's

I understand. Um, and maybe I guess because we do have some conservation on here that essentially identifies where you really can't build it all, it's the flood way, all that area, potential flood plane area, but that's not exactly what you're talking about. I understand um if there are specific areas that need to be taken a look at, um, it would be beneficial to have those from you. Um, however, I know that this has been an ongoing discussion. This is three months now as well, and I know you all want to provide your insight to city council. Um, but I guess I don't know how long I guess this can kind of continue along. I don't know if y'all want to look at it another month or however it wants to go, but even just a simple, I guess, statement from you all as such that this needs to be taken a look at um and addressed in the final draft of it may be sufficient enough for city council to take a look at it and include it into their recommendations for changes as well. Um yeah, I know I'm more than happy to sit here and discuss this for the next five months if we have to. Um, but I want to make sure that we're progressing in a manner that is appropriate, I guess, for this plan itself. Um, and for the whole section 7, like I said, I'm happy to provide any information um that you all deem fit to over to them um so that it can be addressed and changed um in their eyes. Essentially, that's just my two cents currently and where I stand. And I'll stop and say that I'll um my personal version I'll get it edited with this um ADU and get it back directly emailed to you so for distribution as soon as possible.

And I've got some stuff fixing to come on that may already he's going I was just letting everybody know after you see it may be addressing what your concerns are.

Mr. Chairman, my only concerns are basically or to echo a lot of what uh Chad has just said because uh Cherry Lane has become a hot box for not only residential uh it has gone crazy as far as large 800,000 square foot buildings and the amount of tractor trailer traffic down there. Uh the creation of more and more uh traffic is really putting a burden on that entire area. Uh Graham, I believe, has sat back and did uh if you will a reactive role instead of a proactive role on what has happened out there. And now we're trying to catch up. And so it's going to take a tremendous amount of work, not only by our ad advice to the city council, but it just there's so much involved in Cherry Lane and what's going on. Anybody lives out there, u most people are would tell you it is just changed the whole complexity of the area. it's no longer a a place you want to want to live to be in all uh truthfulness about it. So I think handling it uh takes a lot of a lot more personal insight as to what the language needs to be in in part of this emerging growth conditions which is on 53. as to what um was said a while ago about strip development versus commercial centers. My my biggest deal is I don't like generics and I and I agree that we don't

need to to just become a city that is overwhelmed with no way to get around and just because it seems to be uh a better commercial area uh for downtown growth when actually it it may hurt business more. or so than help it. Uh the case in point being with Mount Ary, uh we were down there not long ago. Yes, beautiful little town, but to go anywhere, you got to park miles away, it seems like, and walk. And it's all uphill in Mount Ary, unless you're carrying packages, then you fall downhill trying to get them to your car. So, I think we need to be careful with preserving the city. And I I think the language needs to mix the two areas that he talked about uh commercial and strip development as as well as mixed in separation. that that mixed use, you're allowing a tremendous amount of business and buildings to come in and it kills the the downtown uh preservation that we're trying to achieve here with the city of Graham. I don't like to see a lot of change. Yeah, I'm old since 1891 as it was brought up earlier, but th those are my concerns.

Yes, sir. Thank you. I scared you wrong. I'm trying to get back to that. Um, my stuff is really seven. Would you like me to pull it up? You can pull that up, but I'm going back to my notes that I had originally for chapter six there. I had some. I'm sure I will have had everything that lead

I don't see my notes but I had notes

come back to see um most of my stuff tonight's on chapter seven section 7 and um pretty easy and pretty simple that the strip development

um I don't think any of that language there the characteristics of a strip development include uh I think we need to x all that out and start over with that and I got some comments down there if we can make it bigger where everybody can read it should maybe go there. I I don't know. I I kind of wrote some things out and just I mean the steering committee when we had that meeting time after time you know the committee and the public displayed their dislike of strip development. I'm not saying that we need to do away with strip development, but I think we need to change it a little bit. And if you could scroll on down to the next one with the photographs, that's our typical strip development in Graham right now. And it's generic. It's not uplifting and it's not inviting. It's generic. Scroll on down this little bit further. I think we need to be doing stuff like that on our strip centers. different roof height, different facades.

That u Alamance Crossing right here, that one building right is the Malamax Crossing. Yeah.

Which would give us a more I don't know if it's going to attract more business, but it's more inviting in my opinion. It may not be in just a comment about what what you're seeing down there. come in to Dean earlier that one prime example to add to what he has there is a little town just east of Memphis called Germantown. They enacted this kind of a an approach probably 25 30 years ago and it made a huge difference look and the appeal the overall tenor of the the shopping areas. it will make a difference that that kind of an approach

that is uh you know we've got so many driveway ins driveway outs curb cuts we need to do something and on the number of curb cuts that you could have on a partial and do more infield of from parking lot to parking lot which we're already trying to do we do have some of that on South Main Street but to keep you from having to to go back out on Main Street to get the next building down or two buildings down. If you could funnel those stubouts from parking lot to parking lot be more appealing in my mind. Now, you don't have to agree with me. I'd love to hear everybody's opinion. Like if you go to Chapel Hill, you go to Harbor, you go to Hillsboro, that's what you see. You don't see the standard traditional strip center anymore. They are there, but they don't feel like a strip center. My only thought is yes, you can reference some of this stuff. Say for instance, they come in front of you all, right? But when they come, a development like this were to come in front of city staff with no council or planning board interception of it. How exactly could we require them if it's listed inside of our future land use plan?

Take that out and put this in. That would have to be inside of our development ordinance. That's not hard to make some modifications. I don't know that we want to get that far and go that far to do that. But how are we ever going to make change if we don't change development orders?

I completely understand and I agree with you. I think this is also a good step in the right direction if that is something where you want to match your future land use plan with a potential new updated development ordinance is we have presented inside of section seven of how we envision this going along the South Main Street and East Harden corridor. And thus, you're changing your overlay district language that states it shall I don't even know how you would define this, but I'm sure more highly educated author of an ordinance could probably draft something up to where it meets more of these standards rather than just a block, right? Because I mean, I think that's typically there's not a requirement. It's just you has to be clad with brick or stone or masonry and that's it. There's no architectural elements that are associated with it. And maybe that's the inclusion that would have to come inside of the development ordinance. But I'm not saying like this is what if this is something that y'all would like to see inside the development ordinance, then it's easy or not easy, but better to put it in here to refer it back to the development orders if it gets updated

like something like variable heights and structures. Yeah, I think um you know you could reference that into um like inside of here but inside development ordinance is when it would actually have your nitty-gritty like what exactly is required. This this is a guidance document. It's not law or correct. This so this is the design philosophy and then the UDO is going to be the fleshing out. Okay. So I think if this is going to be this this is a design philosophy, it needs to be in this document like what uh what the chair has has out there. I agree. Yes, sir.

That was just one of my concerns there that I think that we need to look at is changing those comments there on 64, page 64 right there under strip development.

Changing some of that Going down to 66. Add comments under the concept of mixed use. Go all the way to the bottom and add some com uh com comments mixed use. And then I put that there. Nobody's going to hurt my feelings. If you don't if you don't like it, I mean, it's okay. That's pretty well said. Then if we take on from there after those comments, if we scroll on down and go to uh section 8 under Graham City Council, I want to add some comments There

is CP comp plan. out. I got tired by that point. The pack with that paragraph meekly says arbitrary because a lot of times regardless of the insight that is given they make those arbitrary decisions and getting push back on it. That's very well.

Well, I encourage all of you don't be afraid to pick up the phone and call UNCC school of government because they will talk to you. The reason behind it a lot of times and I'm not taking sides with it. A lot of times we do all the leg work as a planning zoning. We we get out here and bust our buns trying to get the right stuff done. We present it and it goes on deaf ears and then they wind up making such arbitrary decisions is what he's pointing to, I believe. Yeah, that will have to be something y'all will take up with

that's not that's not directed towards anything. I think we just needed a good laugh there. You wouldn't you wouldn't offer.

No, no, no, no. Like I, you know, I mean, I think, you know, as a planning board, right, you've talked about these specific sections to a good extent of these are the ones that you all feel need a deeper look at, right? And this document that Chair Ward provided is that bit of insight to, hey, us, the planning board, we're not really satisfied with what was listed inside of these specific sections. we can go through and mark up every single word, change every single paragraph inside of here until we're, you know, here for a couple months. And that's I'm not like I wasn't trying to be rude when I was saying that earlier, but if there's a general consensus with I mean, even if it's what Chair Ward provided that this is the planning board's view on this with the markups that we've already provided is that these sections are not sufficient. This is why this is what we think should happen. Then that is essentially what you pass along. And like I said, it's like we can mark it up and do everything if we need to, and I'm perfectly fine with doing that if that's y'all what y'all want to do. But I think with what you provided expresses your opinions and thoughts associated with it, and it I don't want to say it'd be sufficient enough to pass along unless y'all would deem that such. So, but that's just where I'm looking at it from a staff perspective.

Well, perfectly understood. I I just want to reach back way before your time and even bring up something that happened, if you will, uh with the Family Dollar down here in the old Hardies building and things were brought up about after the fact and they put this thing in the historical district and now we're now we're stuck with it. Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Um no, I understand. So, um that's the things we're trying to avoid. I bet that's what this is.

I also understand I mean your concerns about Cherry Lane area. Um and again like that was also something that I believe was heavily discussed in the 2015 updated this and that's been you know 11 odd years ago. Um and I believe at the time there was an discussion where they saw it being that type of area over there and that's what has grown to be. Um whether or not it got the public input it needed I don't know. Well, part of that discussion uh was not part of the original plan. It got overlooked, I believe. I don't know intentionally or not, but

uh most of that area along Cherry Lane was to remain residential. It wasn't for high impact industrial. Yeah, I understand. It's just um some of it was zoned industrial, of course. And when it's that, this document, like Mr. Wooten said, is not law by any means. and they're just a year to wire development ordinance. So, exactly. Well, thank you. So, does anybody have any problem with the three pages that I submitted there inserting or deleting or hashing anything out? Because I I'm I'm not opposed if you don't like it, we won't put it in. I like it.

I mean, I the only thing that I would kind of request is essentially a blurb, right, from you all as I kind of stated earlier and like I don't want to put words in y'all's mouth, right? If essentially what I said was planning board expressed their um disagreements with section seven and eight as listed and provided this specific document associated with it um that also accompanies other edits inside and Chad even your aspect of the future lane use map as well. Like I said, I mean, if we want to table this again to allow him to make the edits to it, we certainly can.

Absolutely. If they have a like a brief blurb or something that essentially states, you know, there is a lot of conservation area here that still needs to be addressed inside of the future land use map. Um, like I said, that could be taken and looking at and addressed in that sense, too. said and you'd want to include in that how these sections seven and eight correlates to section four goals to guide us into the future like uh goal 4.1.2 two strategy to encourage internal connectivity between commercial plazas with sidewalk trail. And what are we looking at that? Are we going to have trails

inside subdivisions potentially if there's a green you're talking about this? This is the reduce the proliferation of commercial strip development. That's where that strategy too is trail in regard to commercial strip. How do those two correlate? Maybe crossing property lines to get to another commercial development. A little vague. The other one 4.4.2 strategy 3 require bricks stamped concrete crosswalks. That's still valid at this point. Is that for all commercial? Is that just talking about the historic?

That's improve the walkability of the city. Is that still a valid statement at this point? Could be. Depends on who you ask, I guess. Okay. So, section seven is going to have correlation with section four. So, that needs to be addressed as well. Uh, yeah, totally understand. So, that's essentially they uh expressed their concern with section seven and 8 and not only that, with how it relates back to section 4. um and provide the document and everything else that associated with it.

I would suggest our great bard over here take a look also chairman at 7.2 and 7.3 come up with some good verbiage in your copious free time. It's amazing what AI help you with that. I

mean I think it goes to say that there's still a displeasure with seven as a whole. I mean, it's not just the ones that he has specifically listed out, but you provided emphasis on displeasure with all of it, not just ones. He just provided comment on these, but feel like city council should take emphasis on all of them and use their guidance based on what y'all provided. So, like I said, that we can mark this thing up forever if we wanted to. I I would propose carrying this over, but also sending a draft to council just for review to let them know what we're working on.

I don't think we can do that because it has to be advertised as a public hearing and they have to review it during their meeting.

But then don't schedule anything next month. Well, you already tabled one thing. So besides ours, if we it comes for a reason and we're going to have to put them on the agenda. So well, you let me know and we may have a second meeting next month. Okay. If that happens. Yes, sir. Depending on because I then that way I can poll each one. I can send the email to each member here to see what how much time they think they're going to need for what they've got and see if we can work it all in. If you've got a big agenda or something like that, if we can get it all in, I'll try to get it all in on one. If I can't, we'll do two.

Okay. Yeah, that's fine. I'm just trying to figure out what getting it all in is right. I mean, I think, you know, we've edited a lot of things inside of here and we have expressed all these things, but these are the same comments that we were talking about at the last meeting and we still have the same document in front of us outside of what you were provided essentially. Well, I didn't see any indication of where we changed anything from the last meeting. That is completely false because I changed Oh, no, no, no. Of what I changed tonight. Okay. I didn't I'm not saying not what you I changed tonight. I didn't every time I read back over it, I I I can do this for another year.

Yeah. I mean, I think that's the anybody could do it for any You could read through a brand new development ordinance and do the exact same thing and find plug holes. Same thing with you can look through our development ordinance and find loopholes to build a accessory dwelling unit and another one after you subdivide it. I mean, there's any type of ways that you can look at this episode for the next 15 years, 10, 15 years. So, I'm just trying to make it the best that I can do and let everybody else do your part and then we'll send it on. All right, that's fine with me. If that's what you all decide to do, that is fine. I'm just uh

Let me ask one question. Am I the only one that is concerned that we have not received any public input at this point and I'm not I'm not necessarily calling for a public hearing, but I've seen your emails that you have right to be concerned. I'm concerned, but I'm really concerned about this whole document that was written. I really think the city wasted your money. They didn't really get what they should have got. I think you got what you paid for. I think we stayed and we got exactly what we paid for. Understand? There was not any engagement that was associated with any public aspects.

Wait a minute, Cameron. We as a board have not been able to talk to the authors of this document and understand their rationale. how they wrote this, why they wrote this may it may make a difference, but are we as a city we we can't afford to bring them back in here? We can see I mean we should be able to address them because they could have answered that question about public comment. You haven't been able to answer it. I haven't been able to answer it about you know there was a lot of public comment but I can't remember exactly what all was said at every meeting and yeah because I was not there either but there was public comment that was gathered during all these events and there was comments that were gathered during steering committee meetings and that's about all that I can provide.

We started with one group and that group left out and then we finished with a different group. It was the same entity that did it but the authors changed not different group. Okay but the authors changed. So what the first guy heard did the last guy hear or the author hear? So the draft was provided by the first author and the edits to the imagery and some small tweaks of uh language were done by the uh other person in the department. So, the Dawn, who you had experience with, was the one that provided the initial draft um and presented that to us and then gave it to um Jesse to essentially add all the imagery and everything with it.

Would it be beneficial? Does this board think it'd be beneficial to talk to the author? Would it would it clear up any of your questions? It would. It would have been far better if because you can't go back in time that if you had some input in the beginning with the bill, but now we're having to do it after. But the steering committee did have input with the author u from day one, but it was tough for everybody. Yeah,

it was tough for everybody. Staff, the authors, the meetings, the people coming, going back and forth. But there's no possible way I could remember what all was said at each one of those meetings. But it may answer some of your questions. It may not. But there's like some parts there that definitely I think need we've addressed a lot of the parts, but there still more parts there that need to be addressed even more, especially over there in section six.

I know we all want to be done. So I'm not trying to open a can of worms. I'm just asking a question if we're going to table this so I can do my homework. This section seven is titled comparison of development patterns and this may be an author question so I'm not trying to get us into like an debate here. Is it required that we keep this title and I am only asking because what I continually hear from everyone here is that we don't like having a comparison of development patterns. what you want to see is what we prefer the development pattern of Graham to look like going forward and then we can tie that back to your section four right because section four says we don't want to have strip malls is essentially what that section is referring to and if we can actually say in section seven we're not because what I'm hearing right take out the recommendation sentence right we don't like that is recommending this I am reading this as just this is a strip development this is a commercial center. These are the two differences. And what keeps being repeated from what I'm hearing here, and I know I missed the previous conversations you guys have been working on, is that there is a desire to keep this strip development, right? We all want to see it. That's what you love about the city of Graham. What you don't like about the city of Graham is what those strip developments currently look like, how they are built. So, can we is it allowed and I know we're getting to the point where we just want to say we don't like it.

We're working on it, but is it allowed that this section is moved into here is what we want it to look like going forward? Because to me, this is the future land use plan. It's a plan. It's not a comparison. It is a plan. This is what we desire for this city to look like in the future. And I'm asking that because if we are going to table this for another month and do our homework, I would love to rewrite this and say these are the comparisons and here's what we would like it to look like. I think what you would get, Cameron, correct me if I'm wrong, is you're going to get this in and then you're going to get our section as the planning board recommendation. Right. So the uh town council will see both sections. That is correct.

Right. So to your point, no, there is not any requirement to keep anything inside of here title-wise. We are just obligated by general statute to have a future land use plan. Got it. Okay. And it has to have x amount of factors in those. We were doing this for a reason. No. Well, the reason is to establish a future land use plan as you're saying, right?

I don't have anything else besides that because I was not directly involved with a lot of the writing of this. It was I was tasked to be in the back of the room. So it was supposed to be a lot of the public aspect which there was some gathered and meetings with the steering committee which those those happened. Um and now that is what we got based on both of those instances. If if I can reiterate maybe in a little bit different fashion what I was saying, the point of what I was saying is that if we have a comparison of these things in section 7, it first of all needs to be an honest and complete comparison both good points and bad points, pros and cons of each particular one. And there may be another type of use, who knows? but an honest and complete comparison of each one of these that it makes in sections of these four different things. And then uh for all of these sections, what Dean has done is to have okay, these are the pros and cons of both these approaches. This is what we would like to see. This is how we would like to see progress. what we want to see in the future. This is the direction in which we want to go. As I said earlier, this is a guide. Guide is useless unless we have some sort of verbiage in there that says this is the way we want to go. This is the map. This is the route that we want to take. So, right here, like I said, you've got a foregone conclusion. It's an idea philosophy, a design philosophy that came from somebody else without a lot of input from the steering committee apparently. And so that's that's all I want to say. It's just honest comparison

and the best of both worlds. But somebody, you know, in the future can take this and say, "Oh, that's what they were thinking. That's what they intended." That makes sense. Is that reasonable? Very much so. Like you said, it brings it to a point to make it want to receive. So, we going to tape it.

Maybe we want to receive public comments at the next meeting. I mean, we're going to make a recommendation to town council and we've got no public input. Now, talk to Cameron and it's not required. I understand it's not required, but if it goes to council and we haven't received any public input and it's going to be why didn't planning board consider some of these comments?

I think we've received the public input that came to the steering committees. happened. We received it. Now, we don't have a copy of it here. I don't know. Is that something we can do? Because you're talking about advertising this out. I mean, it was tough getting people to come to the steering committee to begin with. It wasn't every 20 or 30 people was the biggest one I think I saw. And the rest of them were seven or eight people. Comment for that. Nobody shows up. Okay, we made the effort.

May get 10, you may get 20, you may get zero, but at least we made the effort to receive public input on what is supposedly the final document from staff at least.

It's just I'd have to look at it, but I don't this isn't a public hearing item on behalf of the planning board. And that's the only thing that I can really relay over is that it's the same thing for any text amendment that comes in front of you all. And it says that this is to be treated like a text amendment in this sense where this is a reviewing and recommending board to the city council. That recommendation to city council could include that we deem that there is a massive amount of public comment that needs to be held on this document and that be essentially your recommendation over to them. We can't open up a public hearing according to what I think right now. I have to look more into it, but it's this is not up for a public hearing at this board currently. I don't think you can ever go wrong by receiving public comment. Now, I I've been out for 10 12 years now, so it's been a long time,

but I believe this board has the right to call for a public hearing. Well, it may not be required, but it's an option. I'd have to see if it's allowed or or we can call it a public comment, not a public hearing. We can call it a public comment section for an agenda item. I mean, what are we going to show them? I guess is the question. You going to start back over from the very first of this document and go all the way through it again and let them have comments. So, they gonna have to sit here while we go through the whole document and then we hear their comments or we just going to let them come in, give comment, and not hear anything that we've discussed.

Back in the old days, okay, you used to make a copy available in the clerk's office and they could go in and review it and then bring their comments in. So, you don't have to publish the whole document. You just make it available at Miss Ward's office, I guess, or even Cameron's office and say it's available for public review and we receive comment next month. I don't have But that's that's the old days, folks. I'm assuming that's still the way it works. Yeah, I can't give you a definite answer right now.

I'm certainly happy to look into it and see. I mean, because essentially that's what it would be. I mean, it might not even be people speaking here in public. It's a matter of these are what the comments that we received online here to you all or that. And if it is monumental enough to where we're going back and rechanging everything, I I I guess that's where we're at. But at some point, like I'm kind of trying to get at. I'm not trying to move this along, but there has to be a point to where it does proceed past this board where you fish or cut bait. I mean, we're doing our job. If it takes us another three or four months, that's what it takes us. Okay. If that's what it takes, I

If it takes that and if council wants it before then, they can call over here and get us to send it over and we'll be glad to send it over. Yeah. But we're just doing what we've been tasked to do. I understand. And uh we're making progress every month. It just so happens to be there's a month in between a meeting and whether we have anything on the agenda or not. But I think every night that we've had a meeting about this, we've talked two to three hours about it. Yeah. So I think we're really putting in the effort. I mean I can throw my hands up today and say no. I don't want I'm not going to do anything else. I don't want to do that. I live here in Graham. I was born in Graham and I want to kind of know what the plan is for the next 15 years.

Mhm. And I'd like to know that we had an opportunity to to make it the best before we sent it to council and hope that the council adopts 100% of what we changed or maybe they don't adopt any of it. So not not only for next 15 years what we do with this over the next 15 years. It's going to be foundation for 25 50und 100 years to come. So I'd like to get the foundation right. So Mr. Stalker has got a valid point. Does anybody disagree with Mr. Stalker's point? I I agree with it. Then Cameron is instruction. You check into it.

You check into it and if it's appropriate and we can do it, put it on the website, advertise it. Anybody wants to review it for next month's meeting and leave appear or leave comments. You can write a comment or appear. Well, I think that's what we'll have to determine, right? is I think it's just really understanding between y'all is if public comment in the meeting is appropriate, would you all allow it? If it's not, is it appropriate just to receive the sets of comments? Vice versa, if it's allowed, do you just want the comments on a piece of paper or do you have to be here?

I don't think there's no question. I I'm that person that everybody has a voice and if you want to come in here, we ought to hear and if you talk about it for an hour, I'll listen to you for an hour. Okay? I don't give time limits. I didn't want the time limit on anything. I I believe that everybody ought to have a right to speak. We're the governing body of this planning board and how else do you make change without communication. Understandable. If that's a consensus of you all, I'm happy to look into it. So if that's if that's appropriate, please do. Once again, even if you don't have a public hearing, if you have a public comment section related to this document,

well, that's essentially a I don't that's why I have to look at because that's a public hearing, right? I mean, because the only public comment that's allowed is on non-aggenda items. Um, so like I said, it's an easy look into it. on agenda items. That's what it states on side of the uh town council has public comments every meeting and better on non-aggenda items. They're on agenda items. They sign up for agenda. Sign up for it. I come I come to the council meetings. But what comments are are about the actual meeting itself, whatever's on the agenda. So, you know, it's not like they're not talking about

Yeah, I think Yeah, I'll look into it, but I mean there there's been a lot of public comment and I think it was more or less making sure that everybody that wanted to speak on public comment was here during that period and was accounted for. I'm happy to look into it. I'm just not to consider continue the argument, but a lot of councils, county, and city put their public comment period at the beginning so they can exactly discuss or debate or comment on what's coming up on the agenda. So they know what's being heard as opposed to putting it at the back of the meeting. Uh after take up with All right. We beat this in the ground enough tonight. I think unless y'all want to stay for another hour.

So since nobody's want to stay for another hour, Cameron, do you have anything further you want to discuss?

No. Um, I know I I may come off as uh maybe negative in some instances, but I'm just providing input on my side of things. Um, I don't want that to be taken. I don't take anything that you all say to heart either. I know we are a working board over here and our relationship extends past comments that are made during this meeting. Um, and I'm happy to have you all and thank you for the review of the two reasonzonings we had today. And I will look forward to talking with y'all next month in regards to the text amendment and what updates y'all can have to that and updates to this as well. And I'll provide y'all with whatever I can find out. Thank you

very much. Whatever comments and and modifications, send them to him. Send them to Cameron direct directly. All right. Now, I want to just remind everyone that we are a public board. Our business is to be conducted in the chambers here. If there's three of us together outside talking to someone, we've constituted a meeting. Is that right? Nope. You're fine. It's four.

Four. Four. We've constituted a meeting. So, be careful in your emails. If you send an email and you're responding to something, if it's related to something that should have been public publicized and advertised, we're violating open meeting law. So, let's try to be We hadn't done that yet, but let's try to keep it for sure. Y'all have done a very good job because if you got your comments and stuff, you can send it to Cameron and then Cameron can send it out in a package to us and it's advertised and we're all covered there. Other than that, uh, anybody else have any non-aggenda items here to talk about? Motion to adjurnn, sir. I second it. All in favor?

I. Does anybody oppose? Ah,