Select Board - Regular Meeting

It is 7:00 and we will call the January 20th th meeting of the select board to order and start with the pledge of allegiance. I

pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay. Tax bills for quarter three and quarter four of fiscal year 2026 have been sent out. Bills are now mailed two times per fiscal year and each mailing contains two quarterly bills. This is a friendly reminder that quarter 3 tax bills will be due on February 2nd. The Small Stones Festival of the Arts will be held from January 24th to February 1st. Come to the Community Harvest Barn to see the exhibit of jured fine art and photography. Uh, first up, we have an announcement from the Memorial Day parade committee.

Welcome, Jets. Evening.

Good evening. Bob Doma. I'm the chairman of the Veterans Advisory Committee and I'm joined by Lucas Remalad. He's the vice chairman. And uh the reason why we're here tonight is to bring you up to speed on something that took place as far as the details of the Memorial Day parade are going to happen this year. Uh Carmen Pagleion, the uh commander of the post in town, has asked us to kind of take the helm on the parade. uh as their membership starts to age, they are um less and less uh they have less and less energy to commit to the to the parade. They uh they're still passionate about it obviously, but um they've asked us to to take the lead. So, that's really the sole purpose of why we're here tonight is just to um let you know that that change is going to take place and that um some of the items that the Veterans Advisory Committee has worked on in the past are going to kind of take a move to the side table, so to speak, so we can focus solely on the parade because we have uh we have a lot of learning to do. Um we have the playbook, but we have to learn the details. Um who do we notify at what date? who needs to be notified by this deadline. We have to work out u finances. I mean it's the whole thing from soup to nuts and um so that will be our central focus for the next uh you know 6 months approximately so that we can get it up and running and do the right thing for you know those that have sacrificed for the country. um we we have experience running the Fourth of July parade. So, we're not really do we're not going to sweat it too much, but um it was I thought it was important enough to bring it to the board's attention so that they know the um we are hoping to um to get strong support from the select board. People will take part obviously and um you know come up and present a reading. We have pages of

different poems and prayers and things that can be presented. And um we also uh I'm drawing a blank of the book. The um oh the format will uh pretty much stay the same. The dates, the times, the parade route, all of that stays the same. The only thing that will be different is that um we will host the event and introduce the players as they come up to the microphone. So when it comes to um when it comes to military protocol, we'll default to Carmen and and the veterans that are there. When it comes to presenting to the uh to the assembled crowd, we'll do that. And then because we change leadership every year, u next year's parade, Lucas would take over and um and we would all just be there and just rotate through year to year.

Yeah, we'll all rotate through the MC for the parade. So, that's the brief description of what we've got going on over the course of the next six months. And I do want to warn you, you have less than six months to prepare for Memorial Day. I was I was just picking a number out of the air, Andy, you know, so on television. Thank you for Yeah. So, at this point, we'll take any questions. I'm sure Lucas would be happy to answer them probably. Any questions or comments from the board? Something funny, but not so. You have a funny question?

No, I was Yeah, I was going to say you you prepared. What are what's the difference that you're going to you're going to make, Lucas? What are you going to do differently this year and next year and beyond? But kidding, just what do you even know? Oh, I mean I think the most important thing is the like Carmen's crew like they should be focused on being the honores, not the ones running the event, which is one of the discussions that we had of why we wanted to take it over. Yeah.

Was that we can do that and they could just focus on their part of being the color guard marching and not have to worry about being the people that are like, "Oh, we're planning it. We're trying to run it." And the MC is a hard job because you got to know the timing and who's speaking next. You have to read all the openings and the documents that we get from all that stuff. So yeah, that's great. Of course, our favorite question every year is when is Memorial Day? Yeah. Actually, does it shift around? Is uh Carmen I'm sure Carmen and and some of the other members of the post are going to help you with

Oh, yeah. Yeah. with a list of all the calls you have to make to the school for the bands and for the town side for details. And I mean, if you guys are doing that for some of that for Fourth of July, you you probably have a good idea about Oh, yeah. the list of folks that all make that happen. Absolutely. Um, have you thought about like, you know, where this is kind of a bit of a transition, although they're still going to be involved with the military piece of it, which I think is great. Um, some type of I don't know. um I don't want to say award, but some type of recognition for them running this for all those years. Maybe it's not the appropriate day, but um maybe it is.

Yeah, I I think right off the bat I would reach out to Representative Meridian and maybe could pull some strings at the state house and come up with some kind of award or presentation. I don't know how long it's been going on, but I know it's very well supported by the town, by the community. A lot of people come out.

Yeah. We we have one thing that I I'd like to accomplish before the transition takes place and and and Carmen um I'm sorry and Lucas becomes the chair is that um we're represented by the Army, the Navy, and the Air Force, but we don't have any Marines on the committee. I mean, we have a token civilian and um so we we need to fill that slot. It would be nice if anybody at home is listening and watching and uh and if you're a Marine and come forward. Um might want to call Dan Diet. Of course we can do that. Huh? We can do that. I know who he is. I see him at the gym. So

yeah, and he's a he's a Marine and he's passionate. Capital P. Yes, he is. And he he was he was the voice of that parade in the face of it for many years, you know. Um and he's fantastic. Yeah. So, Mr. Chair, one quick thing. Sure. Yeah. So, um thank you both very much.

Uh I always look forward to hearing what you have to say, Bob, when you're in the room and what you're going to be doing, Lucas, is uh it's special and it's uh selfless and it's great for the town. You always do a really nice job. I always, again, Bob, I always appreciate listening to you and um you know, not everybody wants to do this stuff and when you're in the room, I always feel like you're one of the best parts of this job when you come around, both of you. Especially you now, young man. You got to take it forward. You got to pay it forward. Thank you, sir. And you will. You'll do great. Thank you. So, guess what I'm going to do when I get home? Say that again. So, guess what I'm going to do when I get home? Tell my wife somebody actually likes to listen to me. You might have that in common. No, just kidding. Maybe she's watching. I don't know.

Or she'll be like you were talking to the mayor to yourself. I think that's it, Mr. All right. Thanks for your time. Hang on, Mr. Just just a couple comments. Um, yeah, I just wanted to uh publicly recognize Carmen and the Pope for their generosity over the years. I mean, they've really been amazing for carrying this to where it is today. Um, and you know, the fact that he feels comfortable uh handing this over, you know, it's a really good sign of trust between the Veterans Advisory Committee and and that post. So, it's it's fantastic. And finally, just thanks so much for taking this on. It's such an important event and milestone in, you know, in the uh the yearly calendar. So, I'm sure you guys do a great job and I look forward to to seeing the parade this year. Great. All right.

Yeah. Let us know what we can do to help. Okay. We'll do. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Have a great night. Okay. Um, we have no public hearings. Uh, we can take public comment at this time. Uh, and would ask that you limit it to anything that's not on the agenda. Good time for that hearing. We do limit it to two to three minutes.

Gloria Paradiso to Cole Spring Drive. Um, I just want to circle back on the health insurance for the town because that is a big budget item, although I know the budget is on the agenda. Um, I know that the town went with the GIC and that was probably the best choice at the time that you could make. But I'd like to just remind everyone that that's not the silver bullet. That's I don't want everyone in to say, "Okay, we're in the GIC. We're all set now for three years." That is no, you're not all set. You don't know for sure. Are you going to see the savings that the consultant said you would? Because it really does depend on who picks what plan. And you don't know how much of that cost savings, if any, is going to be eroded by the runout that you're going to have to pay the existing carrier, right? And thirdly, the GIC can change benefits at any point in time. So the plan could change over the course of three years, but I think it's very important for the town administrator and this board or whoever the board is going to be in the future to meet with the consultant and whoever that team of people is quarterly to understand what's going on, what's driving the costs, and what are we going to do about it? Whether you're in the GIC or not, because the costs are always going to go up, and this town has to contain that somehow someway. And there are many ways to do that. And I'm don't see any of them happening. I saw the consultant sit here and say he had a whole list of of ideas about cost savings and I haven't heard one of them yet. So I'm challenging this board in the town to kind of bring him in more often, understand where the claim costs are going, what is he doing to help mitigate this. And then for you folks, I hate to say it, but you're going to have the difficult job of making very difficult decisions in the future. And that's what this board has to do, right? It's not a lot of fun sometimes. And what I mean by that is you're going to have to have

difficult conversations with unions and other representation and talk about the idea of changing the contribution strategy. It's not going to be sustainable going forward into years into the future where it is right now. I mean, I work for the largest health insurance plan and I don't have that contribution strategy and I also don't have a $500 deductible. I mean it it it's things have to move in a different way and many municipalities are at 6040. Hangingham is at 5050 and that's sort of the wave of the future and I know no one wants to have that conversation. I know nobody no employee wants to hear that but it has to be this cost has to be a shared responsibility. It can't be just everybody gets what they want and then you go to the taxpayer and say let's have an override to cover it. So, I'm going to challenge this board and Evan to be more transparent. Um, and that's another thing. The way it's set up with the committee who works about learning and, you know, negotiating. I said, I guess for a lack of a better term, the benefits about 12 years ago, that wasn't the case. And I'm going to guess that probably changed when he brought this consultant on because it's a lot easier for him to have a contained conversation. But I think there needs to be transparency. So, I'd like to see that reorganized in a different fashion so more towns people can come and get involved and understand and help with creative ideas. What's driving the cost? What are we doing to fix them? Because it's not fair to this board to come and get a presentation from a consultant and say, "Well, here's where we are. This is where we're at. Go ahead and vote on it." Like, that's not fair to you guys and it's definitely not fair to the town. So, I'd like to see more open conversation and I'd like to see the consultant held a little more accountable um for updates that are available to the town taxpayers.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Think she made a lot of good points there and we should we should get engaged earlier. I don't know will do you know when they start when that group kind of starts their um starts meeting with with the insurance companies. I mean we're going to sign up. I don't know if it's for a multi-year deal we got going on here with the GIC, but we should get should be a part of that process. So, the GIC is a three-year deal, my understanding. And I believe the PE committee meets as needed. They don't have a a set schedule. I know leading up to the GIC decision, they were meeting every month, sometimes twice a month. Okay. So, it it really depends on what's going on.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if they have meeting minutes, we should I don't know how confidential those are, but we should we should be in the loop on some of that stuff.

I guess that would be my point. As needed is not going to cut it. Like there it is needed. It's needed like every couple of months. What are the claims looking like? And that should be transparent not just to the consultant and the PEK committee, but to you and Evan and all of the entire board should have access to that information so that you're not making a decision based on okay, we're out of time and we don't really have any other good choices without understanding how did you get in that situation to begin with. Where are the educational programs? If diabetes is what's driving the claims, where are those programs that are helping the diabetics in the town? Is is it stress? Is it behavioral management? Where is that support system coming from the health plan? I don't see any of discussion about any of that. So, that's what I'd like to see happen.

Great. Thanks, CL.

Okay. Next up, we have appointments. Um, for the first two, accessibility advisory and historic district. Mr. Brown has withdrawn his interest for the time being. Uh, we will start with the agricultural commission. Uh, we have one applicant, Miss Amano. Do you want to come up here before you get into Yeah, whichever whichever you feel like. Before you get into it, um, do you have a preference on the two? Are you willing to serve on both? Because we you're also up here for EDC. Yeah, I'm I'm willing to serve on both. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Um, hi, I'm Alina Amano. Um, I've lived in Grafton. I was born and raised here. And uh my parents, my father Jeffrey Surles and my mother Leo Amano who followed me here um have lived at 77 Potter Hill Road uh for over 40 years. Um so I spent about 10 years after college in New York City, moved back during uh during CO really at the outset of COVID and haven't really left since then. Um, since then, uh, I've become very increasingly obsessed with having my garden and berry patch and fruit trees and growing my own food. I've been volunteering at Paul Grady's farm, uh, which is directly across the street. um which has been great but has also made me want to become more involved and see if there's any way that I can help on a larger scale whether you know I couldn't find a ton of information about what what the agricultural committee does commission does but um yeah I think I would be happy to lend all of my relevant skills uh to help further their agenda whatever that may be.

Great. Um any questions or feedback from the board? Uh, it was really a a great um your note was great and you had me at hello. So, okay, great. Great. Yeah, farmers and the family and it's always been an important thing. Actually, I do, Mr. Chair. Yes, I think that's great. Um, and the more natural food that we can consume is probably better than the stuff that's coming out of machine and loaded with sugar and uh chemicals. So, you know, not to get on a soap box or anything. Yeah. But, um, helping manage those healthcare costs as well. Yeah. I mean, so so yes, you had me a hello. I think it's great. Yeah. Great. Great.

It's beautiful up there in Potter Hill, too. Yeah. Yeah. It is really beautiful. Um, and I'll just come back for the other the economic development commission. You can hang out for for a minute though. We're going to go into that one next anyway. So, great. Going to be on the hot seat for a few minutes. Sure. I just want to put a quick plug in for the community harvest. I'm not sure if you're connected to that, but if you're looking to sort of uh donate some time towards uh agriculture, that is a phenomenal mission up there, and they always need help. That is great. I definitely have been remiss to not be involved over there. It's like a mile and a half from my house. Um but I think between like my stuff and Paul's, I was like figuring out what is the best way. But this is going to be hopefully a great opportunity to get exposure over there as well.

Love it. Good stuff. Yeah. I'm in Phil's court. Yeah. Uh, I'll close it out. Um, from my understanding, we have, uh, a lot of great people who are very agriculturally based on that committee commission. Um, but maybe not so wellversed in like the organizing and and moving it forward. So, your marketing background may figure into that a little bit in terms of, you know, getting them some traction and and forward motion, you know. So, um, yeah, thank you for applying and and thank you for coming out tonight. Yeah, my pleasure. Take a motion. Mr. Chair, I move the board vote to appoint Elena Amano to the Agricultural Commission. Second. Okay. Motion and seconded. Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor?

I welcome. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now, let's talk about the economic development commission. Does she just before we we'll do it with the other one, but does she have to go to the clerk's office? You will have to go to the clerk's office to be sworn in. They'll send you paperwork for it. Okay. Great. No problem. Okay. So, we have one vacancy on the EDC and and two applicants. Um I don't know if do you want to uh customize your response for why you want EDC a little bit?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, basically, as I said, so I spent about 10 years in New York City. During that time, I was doing marketing at both small startups and larger companies, namely Vimeo, um the video hosting company. Um, when I came back, I think I was kind of surprised that there hadn't been more economic growth, you know, more new businesses popping up in the town. Um, and I was a little disappointed. And I think, you know, seeing this vacancy, I was thinking this might be a great opportunity to get more involved, especially uh, now that I have like a lighter workload. I'm doing consulting and setting my own hours. So this is sort of a perfect opportunity for me to become more involved and sort of help see and recognize that change that I would like to have seen in those sort of intervening years. Um so that's sort of the personal reason why. Um, in terms of relevant professional background, um, I would say cultivating skills for working with limited resources and doing lots of scrappy grassroots things like planning and executing events. uh you know creating surveys, making my own ads and whatever that may be at the small startups with smaller budgets versus you know managing entire P&Ls, $50 million budgets and larger teams um you know forecasting and reforcasting and all of that stuff. Um you know at other companies um in the more recent years I've transitioned from sort of the tactical marketing side to higher level business operations. Um, most recently I was uh VP of business operations and chief of staff at a uh generative AI customer service company. um where my biggest focus was essentially getting more and better quality data, whether that was through better tracking, user interviews, employee surveys, um

and then aggregating that and distilling insights from that and presenting those usually in the form of very painstakingly crafted powerpoints that were then ripped to shreds um by the executives. Um, but yeah, I think and also just doing a lot of other external comms and stuff for them, you know, putting together board decks and things of that nature. Um, but yeah, I think a lot of that would translate to this. You know, I'm not sure what the state of, you know, our understanding is of all the businesses in Grafton and what are their biggest challenges and opportunities and pain points and and all of that. But I think a lot of the things could probably become relevant in figuring out what the solutions to those things might be.

Okay, that was perfect.

Um, you know, your your business experience when you said marketing, you know, kind of the light bulb went off with me because that's a lot. I'm on the EDC. I'm the select rep on that committee and and you know marketing um and promoting events and you know trying to gather you mentioned like what what are the needs of the business community and you're right we haven't grown our commercial um inventory up you know as much as we would have liked and we have a lot of work to do there um but it sounds like your skill set really lends into a lot of the work that we do on ADC um and we have a pretty good group and we want to do more We want to mean more to the business community. We want to help businesses that are here survive and grow. And we want to, you know, open the door to to uh to new businesses. So

that's that's great. All right. Thank you for your comments. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. Anybody else? Is that your mom? It is. It is. You're pretty proud right now, right? Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. What a sharp sharp person she is. I'll tell you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Probably glad home too, right? Glad she's home. Yeah, she's glad glad you're not in New York City. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're I think they are actually which is looking for me. It's great. Yeah. Okay. All set. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. Uh second applicant is Mr. Gian Colola. Are you here?

Well, that'll be a hard act to follow. Um, my background, I went to an engineering college in Philadelphia with a with a concentration on business. And so I I come to a business problem with an engineering eye. Where I'm at right now in my life, what has led me to Massachusetts is undertaking contracts with um hotel owners, franchises. I've been to um Florida, Virginia, New Jersey, Philadelphia, now up here to Massachusetts. I've settled in Grafton. I have my family here. We've we've done well and I'm able to take a step back now. My kids are five and eight. My wife is pursuing her career. We are ground level to the problem of um school budgets and overrides and with an eye for topline and bottom line having to deliver uh reports and assessments to hotel owners to let them know if their hotels are still a viable investment. Um, I've ended up in NICK, Norwood, Framingham, Worcester, um, and and had great success. It brings me into contact with the EDC, the Chamber of Commerce, embedding myself. And between nine months and about two and a half years, I'm able to um, most times get them to hang on to the hotel, reinvest in the hotel because, as the saying goes, revenue cures all woes. You're able to reinvest, you're able to pay for your people. Um, so now being at this ground level of taking a look at our budget and saying, "Wow, guys, um, it's one thing to do the override this year, but this problem isn't going anywhere and and your average residents aren't really asking these questions or or once I start having these conversations, they and I get it. My father um, you know, he he worked. He didn't really want to worry about what went on with the revenue in his town." And that led to about 20 years ago, you

know, things like freshman sports getting cut and and and I said to my dad, I said, "Dad, you grew up in this town and you look around and you had freshman sports, you know, back in the 70s and 80s and the town's booming. The property values are going like there's there's businesses all on on the a in New Jersey where I'm from. Where's all the money going?" He said, "Eric, look, I don't want to worry about that." So, your typical residents, they don't they don't want to dig deep, right? Right. And so I I I look at the budgets. I see the line items. Like listen, you know, we can measure ourselves against the other towns. Most towns in Massachusetts are also going through it as well. And and this this this commission EDC has to be a part of the solution. And I have the time right now, the passion, the the the knowledge, the skill set. I know I would have to um be humble and do some learning. Uh but that's where I would like to start to be a part of the solution.

Thank you. Great. Thank you. Hang on for a second. Yeah. Hang on a second, Erica. Mr. Chair. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for uh uh coming in. Thanks for uh expressing interest. Where are you from in Jersey? South Jersey to Philadelphia part of New Jersey. Small backwater. Northeastern Bergen County. Nice. Okay. That's where most people from New Jersey are. The North Park. Yep. Not for 30 years now, but Yeah. Yep. All right. Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, we need more revenue. It does cure a lot of problems. Not everything, but we need help. So, Mr. EDC,

no, another great skill set, you know, um and um the committee, like I said, like I said earlier, we got a lot of work to do. So, um you bring another perspective um you would bring another perspective to the committee. So, um I'm glad you stepped forward and um if you get voted in, great. If not, I think there's there's a lot of um a lot of other opportunities with the committee and that goes for both of you. Whatever happens, you know, two bright people that we need we need good people to volunteer. There's a lot of openings um in town and and this is your passion. I get it. I'm glad you applied. Um maybe there's something else for for both of you if you know the one that doesn't get it. So, sure. Um don't don't you know you've stepped forward seem like a great guy and we we need good people. So

uh two things I've seen just to leave you here with it. The um the piece of property next to the Cumberland Farms there. I went to a great meeting like five years ago about with nice presentation about that being the gateway to Grafton. Something about the zoning needed to be changed in order to put a couple apartments up top, couple layers of apartments so that the investor could get the return on their investment, some retail space and some apartments. I don't know what ever happened to that, but um that that whole zoning thing and all that that that would be a great place to start. and the owner of the hotel that I was doing work for in Worcester, he owns the piece of land by the um commuter rail where there was a lot of activity and then that activity stopped and he was mentioning it can be a little difficult um to do business and really bring a project to fruition uh in in the town here. So something to keep in mind those two

those two places might be a good place to start. Yeah, we do have you know several land use committees and boards in town. So where they talk about zoning and you know um all all types of you know development u projects yeah planning might be another again depending on however tonight goes win lose or draw but uh the planning board might be another effective use of your skill set too um you want to consider that as well. Sales and marketing is a strong suit revenue generation so this was uh the the first stop so let me know. Surely you can. I'd love to help out. Thank you. Thanks, sir.

Okay. Um, yeah, they'll open up for additional discussion. This is certainly not an easy decision that we'll have to make tonight. It I mean, it never is. And both here we have, you know, both, I think, highly qualified and and seemingly very motivated. So, um, as Mr. do said regardless of how it pans out um please continue to keep an eye on vacancies and openings because we would definitely appreciate your help anywhere we could get it.

Yeah. Yeah. I would say that um I think both of them would be great on EDC, you know, even with the different skill sets that you guys would both bring a lot to the to the committee. Um and that doesn't mean you can't go to meetings, too. You know, just if you're not a voting member, you know, it's they're all public meetings. They're open to the public. there. You know, there's opportunities for input and ideas and if you have connections to to bring in speakers, we do that through EDC. We plan events for local businesses. So, all of that whether you're on the committee or not, um there's there's um an opportunity to participate. So, so this is tough. I mean, you got two two great people. So Mark,

yeah, I mean I the one thing I'm leading is uh is the just some of the Elena's um experiences might This is hard. This is hard. You two made it. This is the hardest one I think I've and almost three years. This would be the hardest one. So I'm splitting fine hairs here. I think maybe some of that marketing experience and um you know you talked about uh projections, managing a budget, uh puts and takes. That's Tuesday for me. That's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and every day. And I know what that means. I know what that's like. And that experience I think maybe in a 51 49% might lend itself a little bit better to supporting this committee that Craig's on, the EDC. And um then if I look at you Eric I think the other piece of it is pretty strong too but you might be good for like planning board or some of the other things too. I don't there's no current openings but there's just maybe something about your personality maybe being a Jersey guy a little bit that could work a little bit better in that environment. I don't know. It's a great committee. So I didn't make any sense just now did I? I didn't make it easier for anybody. Sorry. Sorry. It's a long week. It's only Tuesday. So, I do that. But yeah, maybe the marketing, sales management piece, operations management, just from a skills perspective might put me in the 51% category here.

Yeah, I'm going to make a motion. Sure. I guess unless there's other other comment. I'll just make a I thought it was going to be a pretty straightforward decision after Elena spoke and then came up and he shows up. I changed my mind. So very difficult decision but I think both uh excellent candidates and um yeah all right I would just ask you both to stay engaged like I said earlier I'm going to make a motion that we appoint uh Elena uh Ammano to the EDC second motion made and seconded. Any additional discussion?

All those in favor I motion pass unanimously. Thanks again Eric. Eric, um, spots open up regularly on EDC, so stay tuned. Please get spots on the interest.

That's our chief. Okay. So, Elena, you should be getting uh two letters from the clerk's office for for both of those committees, and you can make arrangements to them with them to be sworn in. It's no big deal. Okay, great. Okay, thank you so much. Thanks. Okay, next up we have a vacancy one vacancy with the e emergency management agency and uh Mr. Sigru. Oh yeah, I just wanted to listen. Okay.

Oh, good evening everyone. My name is Damian Shagru to Martin Drive. Uh we've been in Grafton for 21 years. Um I'm a 35-y year public school educator. 20 of those years as a building administrator and 17 of those as a building principal. In my work, I've had a lot of training in um various safety protocols and emergency planning. Um I'm a certified Alice trainer. I've written um safety plans for schools and districts in my career, dealing with things, you know, with with the basic fire drills and um evacuation drills every year up to and including um chemical spills, um emergency management if there is, you know, a tragedy somewhere in the town that needed our facilities. Um, when I first became a principal, I was in Douglas, Mass, and we were doing a a safety tour, and the first question I was asked, I think it was my third day in the building, was, "How many bodies does your walk-in hold?" And I had never thought of anything like that before in a school. But when you're thinking about, especially in today's time, emergency management, um, there's some pretty grim things you have to think about. Um, so in in my um career, I've dealt with a lot of different issues. A lot of them small and a lot of them people haven't been hurt, but you had to to work on, you know, traffic patterns and clearing a building and dealing with chemicals that are found in a building, things like that. So, I have a small bit of knowledge that maybe I could bring to the agency. I saw the posting and I thought it would be um you know something that I do maybe have a little bit of a skill set for and would like to to give back to the town a little bit and volunteer.

Great. Any questions or comments from the board? Thanks for coming. Thanks for volunteering. Well spoken. Thank you. Yeah, same. Um I mean it's a it's a great resume that you submitted. Um my gut is the the regulations in terms of what you're supposed to do when these tragedies happen tend to you know be a little more like federal and state mandated. So I think you know your skill set as a principal in communication organization you know organizing people all that stuff f will really factor into this well and all this work we worked of course with local law enforcement local fire you know all of the localord emergency

management people to make sure that what we were doing would also work with the plans they have for coming to buildings things like that so make sure it's all coordinated and uh Miss Cedarberg who oversees all this stuff for the town is very intense about all these things and I'm sure we'll be super excited to have you on board. Great. If nobody else has any questions or comments, we can take a motion. Mr. Chair, I move the board vote to appoint Damen Sigru to the Grafted Emergency Management Agency. Second. Okay. Much seconded. Any discussion? All those in favor? I. Thank you very much. Welcome. Thank you.

Uh same thing. You'll get a letter from the town clerk about being sworn in. Uh y'all are welcome to stay for the rest of the meeting, but under no obligation. Okay, last one. We have one vacancy for the historical commission and Mr. Flanigan. Hi everyone. Welcome. Thank you.

Um yeah, so just to share some information about myself. So I moved to Grafton about three and a half years ago. Uh my wife and I have uh two kids at home now and uh we're looking to stay in Grafton as long as possible and get involved. Um so some background about my uh you know interest in history. So I've been uh reenacting Civil War for um almost almost 13 years now. Um I also reenacted World War I history. And uh I was a member uh in college, so that would have been um about 10 years ago uh for the Sons of Union uh Civil War veterans out of Worcester uh Camp 25. and I uh helped contribute to setting up the uh monument in Webster, Massachusetts for the Slater Guards. They were out of a local uh Civil War regiment. Um so that monument's now at Memorial Beach. I also um helped contribute to uh every Memorial Day we'd go to Hope Cemetery uh in Auburn Westerline and plant flags up there. Um, so that's a little bit about my, uh, historical background and I do some, uh, amateur, uh, amateur, uh, genealogy as well. Um, but what I'd like to, you know, contribute to, um, you know, to Grafton is, uh, you know, I think a lot of people, uh, you know, have an interest in history, but depending on, you know, whatever subject that is, I think, you know, from what I've seen is it just comes down to what, you know, particular, uh, area of focus people are interested in. So, you know, just for example with Civil War, um you know, you look at the, you know, technological advances people are interested in. Um, you know, from a medical standpoint, uh, you know, there's all different subjects within history that I think everyone is really, you know, interested in. People love learning about their family. And I think, you know, coming from uh another town, I I lived in Webster um

originally, you know, I can bring some new insight and uh you know, with being a younger generation, I think, you know, a lot of younger people have a hard time, you know, really getting into history. So, I'd like to kind of boost that up as well. Great intro. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Uh any questions or comments? So many. So, you you you do the reenactments. That's right. I went to What does that entail? Yeah. So, um let's get into that.

Yeah. So, it it depends what what you do. Um there's World War I and Civil War. Uh so, Civil War, you know, essentially we'll go out on uh Friday, you know, we'll set up camp, we'll have tents, you know, you put all the gear on and from Saturday until Sunday, you're living in 18, you know, 61 to 65. And uh yeah, the public comes out. Um you know, for the most part, it's um a lot of like camp life. Uh, so you know, you show people how you cook. Kind of like an old Sturbid Village kind of feel. Um, and then, you know, there's always a battle that takes place. So, um, you know, not a lot of Confederates up up north here. Uh, but on occasion, you know, we'll, uh, we'll have some battles going on and really just kind of show people what it was like for life back then. Um, same goes for World War I, you know, just the environment's a little different when you're in a trench, but Yes.

And then the whole Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, um right. That's right. Well, technically it's a rifle because the barrels were rifled. But yes, um the 15th Massachusetts, as a matter of fact. So, a lot of uh which I'm that's the group that I'm a part of. They were formed out of Worcester County. Um a lot of the Grafton residents actually served in one of the companies of the 15th Massachusetts. Um but uh the rifles that they had uh later on most of them ended up getting uh Springfield rifles made over in Springfield, Massachusetts. So Smith and Wesson

that too that later on they um Smith Smith and Wesson had uh revolver that was pretty common he's an expert. Definitely not an expert expert in this room. What are you What are you thinking? Well, Springfield Mass was excellent. Very interesting. I'd love to sit down and have a cup of coffee and learn more. Not to do that tonight. Perfect. Anybody else? Mark used up all of our time. Sorry, we got to keep moving. We'll make it less interesting. Mr. Chair, I move the board vote to appoint Neil Flanigan to the historical commission. Second.

Okay. Motion and seconded. I want to take a moment for discussion and say it sounds like we have an inn uh for some uh for some additional people in our Fourth of July parade essentially. So uh that'd be great. Um any additional discussion? All those in favor? I I passes. Uh town clerk's office will send you a letter. Uh you are under no obligation to stay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for playing. Okay. Uh, next up we have an appointment from the fire chief.

Good evening. Thanks for having us. Um, reason I'm here today is for have you uh affirm the appointment of Nick Astrander as a lieutenant for station 3. Uh, Nick has been a member of the fire service for 10 10 plus years now. um works full-time in the town of Westbrook and he's been on Grafton for just under four years now. Um served the last few months as an interimm lieutenant and uh went through our promotional pro process which he aced um and he's got a whole list of stuff. I asked him for a quick bio and he gave me two pages of stuff and few highlights for you. Um, Nick is a paramedic. Um, has associates degree in that. Um, a business degree in business, uh, sorry, bachelor's degree in business. Um, he also holds his firefighter one two, his officer one, two, and is also part of um has Yeah, I got most of it. There's there's there's a bunch if I I know I missed stuff, but Nick can fill you in. Um, we're super proud to have him and his experience and the um, I say the love for the job and his commitment is just I I can't say enough about it. It's awesome. He's always available. Um, you know, for questions or anything, bounce things off of and I know a lot of the members look up to him and look to him for guidance as well. So, and I can't be happier than, you know, the way the process worked out and to have Nick be our lieutenant.

Well, he's got to love it. You can't do it full-time all day and then do it part-time in the evenings if you don't like. Right. Best job I ever had. Jeez. Okay. Uh any any questions or comments from the board? Well, just thank you very much and just great resume and uh yeah, if you love jumping into burning buildings and jumping out of them to help people, then good for you. It's awesome. Appreciate that. Of

course. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, just a quick comment. Uh, thanks so much. Uh, your skills are definitely uh, much appreciated and um, I think it speaks a lot about the um, maturing department and everything that we've got full-time firefighters that are willing to come here and work on a call basis and provide their leadership. Um, so yeah, super psyched. Uh, it's great to have you on board and um, yeah, you have my wholehearted endorsement for uh, for that position. I think it's

excellent. Thank you. Y same here. So, welcome. Thanks for thanks for being a part of the department and and bringing all your experience and knowledge to to the department and to all of the the the on call um men and women you're working with. Of course. My pleasure. At station three. Okay, I move the board vote to affirm the promotion of Nick Ostrander to the the position of station 3 lieutenant. Second. Okay. Motion made seconded. Any discussion? All those in favor? I I thank you very much. Congratulations. Welld deserved. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Okay. Um,

first up, new business, we have vote to sign documents associated with 1727 Upton Street. Um, I'm going to give uh an intro. I'm not going to say a brief intro. Um, just so we're all on the same page about how this came about, um, the purchase and sale contemplates the need for a soil remediation agreement. So, that was part of what, uh, initiated the process. Um, in some secondary soil testing, some additional contaminants were discovered that the town was not previously aware of. Um, at this point, now that we've been made aware of them if this uh sale goes sideways, town would be on the hook for remediation before the propertyy's listed again. Um, the developer hired a third party engineer in Tyin Bond, which is an agency that town works with regularly and and has trust in. Um that estimate came back uh to remediate the current contaminants at around $250,000. Although they stressed that um if the contamination in that in that particular area is worse than anticipated that that price tag could go up quickly. Um as well as if additional contamination is discovered on the site that was uh that the town was not previously aware of as well. Um we entered into negotiations with the developer. Um we settled on a number that we were comfortable with. There were a few stipulations that we tried to include in this agreement. Um the first one was an expedited purchase and sale. Uh our our uh current deadline is April 1st. That uh provision was rejected. the developer had concerns that if something out of their control came up, um it could potentially derail the sale of the property. Uh the second

one was an effort to protect some of the grant money that the affordable housing trust has invested in the project. That too was rejected. Um the third one was soil remediation oversight. Uh as part of the agreement, both parties will put matching funds into an escrow account which will go towards the the remediation. Um we wanted the developer to understand that this was not uh you know simply a check for them to spend up to. Um so the remediation oversight uh entails a a third party um that does testing every so many cubic yards to ensure that material isn't being removed for the sake of removal and charge. Um believe that's it. Um when we discuss this the town because uh the agreement hinges on the developer um doing the remediation with the oversight. Um if the deal were canceled and the town did have to do that remediation, uh that cost was estimated at roughly $650,000 for us to handle it. Um again because we'd have to coordinate with a company, we'd have to truck equipment in whereas the current developer will have all that stuff on site. Um it does say four four documents in here. Um I believe the regulatory agreement and decor declaration of restrictive covenants is simply an example and not something that um we're actually have to sign. There is paperwork that needs to be worked up between the developer and the executive office of housing and livable communities that will then once they arrange that stuff come back uh to the town administrator to sign. So um I believe that is the document that is merely an example. It was pulled

directly from the EOHLC website. Um the other three are what we'll be signing. The third amendment to the PNS just clarifies that that we have enacted the um solar remediation agreement uh or you know here called the environmental holdback and escrow agreement and and uh points to that new specific language. The land disposition agreement is something that we've worked on along the way uh which is also ready at this point for us to sign. Um we can open it up to public question or comment at this point. Uh I would remind everybody this is um you know to try and limit their comments to or questions uh to these documents specifically. This is not meant to be an indictment uh of the entire project or the developer or uh anything like that. Just uh strictly about the purchase update to the purchase and sale uh the the environmental holdback and escro agreement or the land disposition agreement. Is there any public comment tonight, Mr. Carol?

Go Patriots. Right. Go Pat.

Um Bob Carol, 72 East Street. Um this should be pretty painfree. So just some clarifying questions. Um, I think Andy, uh, what you summarized, um, is kind of my understanding to how it all works. You can't outrun the responsibility and cleaning up the site and all that stuff. So, um, I I think, you know, on the one hand, I'm kind of torn, you know, um, and I I don't, you know, where Evan's not here, I was going to ask him, so, you know, the agreement is for, you know, $100,000. So, you know, that's $100,000 that's going in um to remediate the site. So, on the one hand, I applaud you because I think that's a really good number, but on the other side, I'm like, you know, is it enough? And then, you know, I think um the selling price is like 650 or something like that for the property. So, obviously that's less money that goes to, you know, what's further down on the agenda for the for the budget discussions. So, but I you know, 100 grand.

I if I can just jump in quickly. Um I I forgot to mention that this agreement um shifts the responsibility in perpetuity as well. We are on the hook for that first 100 grand if it is not completely expended any uh you know additional funds returned but any liability for any additional contaminants moving forward are the responsibility of the developer at that point. The town is has removed all liability. Yeah, I would talk to the attorneys on that one because you know when they served you this this was done directly through our council and

but when but when they served you with the notice of responsibility, right? It kind of the way my understanding it works is like you own it and you I mean if it's all remediated and you get the sign off then everything's good. But you know whatever. I'm sure you'll you'll work it out. Well, we have to sort of have some trust or faith in the attorneys that are sharing this information with us. It's a very fair point, but if you're me in the room and you're listening to an attorney to walk through this process, Yeah. Yeah. I have to believe that,

right? I would just ask them the question, you know, and reference the um the department documents. It's it's in there, you know, about um the responsibility. And there's also, you know, citation that was sent to the town um by certified mail that, you know, we're in non-compliance. So my next question you know in in this process will that fulfill all the reporting and the remediation for the non-compliance is the so the new owner as I understand it the non-compliant so we had done

a certain level of soil testing prior to the RFP um and then a secondary set of testing was done you know in more depth and detail and and because contamination was discovered then that triggered the non-compliance So, now that we have the agreement ironed out, that that should be moved at this point. Okay. Um, so kind of where we're on that topic, um, in the, um, the, um, environmental holdback agreement, um, I think you said you were looking to close the first, right, of April. We have to. Yeah. Yeah. Uh the the purchase and sale date with the two extensions.

So my only question is um I think the correspondence came from Evan to um the department of the EPA that you had to get documents by June 4th of 2026 to them for the response. So my I guess my question, you know, if you close on the first, right, to do the whatever due diligence and the, you know, studies or whatever this guy has to do, is that going to be enough time? Are you going to be able to make it for, you know, June 4th? I don't have the information to speak to that directly. It's something that we can definitely uh have. You might want to look at that get into

because the town did commit to that in the the plan. So that would be, you know, my only question on that. Um, with respect to the the escrow, so who oversees the escrow? Who who's the agent for that? We have an they they me back that up. When we approved the agreement in executive session, they were still working to find an escrow agent. It's possible that they have since we concluded that. Um, we have not. So, both parties pick the agent or the agent works for the town or for the buyer. Both both parties agree to the escro agent.

Oh, so you both have to agree. Okay. because that that wasn't clear to me. Um and then the last part um well one other minor thing um in in the um the agreement um that references the um the RTN the release tracking numbers there's actually two but the agreement only calls out the one. So, is that something you guys want to put in there so you're covered? Because there is one I think it was from like 2012. I And Craig probably knows or someone has been here longer. I think there was a tank in a um surrounding uh you know concrete that had to be removed. It was the the walls failed. It was leaking. It was removed and all this was like 2012. and that is on the website and there is an RTN for that. So my point is do you want that in the document too so that doesn't come back to bite you down the road? So you might want to take that up with council. Um again kind of a minor point. And then the last thing is um when when you were discussing with council, did the notion of um environmental insurance ever come up and being a you know listed party on um either the developer or yourselves having a policy? So in the event something happened that you know the that limits the exposure for the town.

I don't I don't believe that was discussed. I believe again my understanding is the what was negotiated in in the remediation agreement uh is is what ultimately protects the town.

But I I would I would strongly suggest that you investigate that because the the scenario could be you know we we we all know and it came out of the AHT meeting you know the the buyer you know form this LLC. the LLC really doesn't have a whole lot of assets or, you know, it's just a shell essentially. Now, if if if this thing really went sideways, if they found all kinds of stuff, theoretically could walk away and the town is on the hook. That's why you want insurance. So, I would strongly suggest you you look into that. Um, and then the last item is, you know, uh, I'll leave that one. the um that's an Evan question. So, and I think he's at the school committee, right? Yep. Yeah. So, we'll hold that one. Um that's basically it. So, you know, nice job with the 100 grand is what it is.

Um to that point, uh is this something that we wish to uh pass over temporarily until Evan is back and can answer a couple of those questions or do we just uh do we wish to move to a Mr. to trade your finger. You do have one hand on Zoom. It's up to you guys. I mean, the insurance thing might be important and then that other document number, right, with the with that tank being a part of that, but whatever whatever the wish of the board is, waiting a few minutes and coming back to it if if everybody's agreeable to that.

Yeah. Okay. just, you know, he he they may be simple explanations that he is able to quickly provide um that that we just simply aren't. Is that about this topic? That hand that's on Zoom. Yes. Okay. Why don't we go to the Zoom? I see it. Hello. Hello.

Oh, hi there. Um this is Shannon Failen. Um, I'm at 159 Old Westboro Road and I just had a comment a couple of comments about the the um environmental holdback. Um, I was I was just a little bit concerned that it looks like the town is going to be staying the responsible party, but that another um entity is going to be doing the work and ensuring that we get closure. Um, similar to what I believe the the previous gentleman was saying, I was wondering if possibly um we could just make the the mass D or the overseeing agency um aware of that and see if it's possible to to change the official responsible party to them. Um, I'm just concerned in the situation as if like they back out or they run out of money or something happens and they found all sorts of new contamination and now we're on the hook to deal with it. That was one concern. And then um kind of related to that is I would suggest that if any that any future work um like scopes of work or estimates or you know boring logs results anything like that I would suggest that it's all addressed not only to the developer but also to the town of Grafton so that we can legally rely on it and that if again if something did happen that we would actually own that information as well because we will be paying for it at least in part. Um, and I'd also just like to make the general comment. I'm I'm kind of new to this project. I just jumped in, but this is what I do for a living. And I'm I'm a little bit surprised that to see that they I'm surprised to see that the developer was surprised to find

additional contamination when there's been pretty extensive sampling done out there even since like 1998 it looks like from online documents. Um so I would think that they would have done due diligence before entering into any kind of agreement. I think they would have seen that contamination. That's just my opinion.

So, to that point, um I I'm gonna I think I think the developer did do reasonable due diligence. Uh the town had had indicated that there was no other underground tanks or contamination that that uh we were aware of and um in that that second level testing, we were quickly proven wrong. there were tanks that we were unaware of that we had no um you know corresponding paperwork to indicate that they were there. Obviously this other um portion of contamination. So um yeah, I think that's also why in the purchase and sale it it contemplated the potential need for this agreement because um you know short of testing every square inch uh there are going to be question marks regardless.

Okay. So Okay. So, they're saying that you're saying that the town didn't know about these other tanks and they're saying there's no other way they could have known about them. Correct.

Um I I I would disagree with the second part of that just because there these documents are all online. I mean, I found them in five minutes, so it's I'm sure they could have as well. Um but I I understand that that's beyond the point now that there's nothing that really can be done about that. Um, I would just say that I would just say the recommendations that I gave earlier and then also um just to maybe have more eyes on on the scopes of work and what they proposed to do. Um, I'm happy to take a look at it or you know like pro bono or if you if you need any advice on that.

I appreciate the offer. I'm not sure how much we could involve you in in something like this, especially if um you know, executive session and and such as a factor. Um but we can we can certainly make a note of that. No worries. Yeah, I appreciate it. Okay. Thank you, Shannon. Thank you, Shannon. Any other hands? No, sure. Any other comments or questions? Okay. Uh we will hold off on this one until Evan gets back. Uh, next up we can welcome the delightful Amy Barry, our town clerk, to discuss uh the 2026 political calendar. Good evening. Evening. Good evening. Happy New Year.

Happy New Year. Um, does anybody have any questions? It's more of like a document that was all the dates are set by either the bylaws or the state except for the nomination papers are coming out on February 2nd at 8:30 a.m. We'll be ready.

Y I'll just say that um I think this is great that it's all here and we have it early. You know, it wasn't always the case. So, I appreciate you getting this this out. um and making it public and we all know what's what the the rest of the winter and the spring will involve. So, I think this is great, Amy. Thank you for for putting this together and doing it in a timely way. Well, thank you. It's all on the website, too. Okay, perfect. Yep. Great. Yep. Awesome. Have a great night. Thank you. All that for that, huh? Yeah, it was worth it. Have a good night. Thank you, Amy.

Thank you. Okay. Um, this is another next up is discuss withdrawal from the community preservation act. This is another one. Um, I'm going to ask the board, is this something you want to kick off the discussion uh without Evan being here or would we prefer to uh come back to this agenda item tonight uh and and deal with some of the other housekeeping stuff first? Um, I guess I'll this is just a general discussion about it, right? I'm just thinking, you know, we don't have the full board here tonight. This is a big thing, right? It's big deal. So, um, if it's just a general discussion, I guess it it's up to the chair. I mean, I don't care if we do it now or do it later. We need Evan for this or

I'm anticipating there'll be questions that we want him to answer or, you know, some sort of feedback. Will, is this something we should speak to or? Uh, no. All the information that Evan and I have discussed is in the email that's in the packet. Okay. Uh, there's no new information beyond that that I'm aware of. Okay. guess to see if people are here for that too. You know, people came here to discuss that. Yep. Yeah. Happy to talk about it.

Okay. Yeah, we don't we uh we get into it and uh kick off. Um, so one of the questions that I had and you might be able to answer this well is the first requirement um in the two-step process is that we would um put a bot ballot question or warrant uh on uh town meeting floor. Um what it doesn't say is what's required to pass that. Is that a simple majority? Do you know?

Not for sure. My inclination is that that would be a simple majority vote. Okay. Um I thought so too, but it'd be good to just clarify Yep.

what that actually is. Um and yeah, just as I understand it, so um uh CPC would continue, right? Um, and because it has uh ongoing obligations, um, Evan kindly put those ongoing obligations uh into the packet, which was great. Um, and from what I read, um, CPC has enough money to fulfill those obligations with its current funding level.

I'm not sure. I don't see that in here. I believe we had we were going to have a bit of a shortfall. Okay. Based on what is currently in the account, do you know what that is? Will I'm sorry, I was reading something. What was the question? What's the What's the Sorry, Matt. Go ahead.

Um, so CPC has uh current obligations, just ongoing obligations. Um I one of the key pieces for me um is does CPC with its current level of funding so uh are they able to meet all of those obligations because I'm not sure how that would work with CPC having outstanding obligations and us uh discontinuing CPA involvement and not being able to meet those commitments. So that is a phenomenal question that we can get the answer to. Okay.

Can I ask a question on this? Are you done, Matt? Are you more uh for the most part? I'm done. Like I don't I wouldn't vote for withdrawing. Um but I think it's a reasonable line of conversation that we would offer it to the voters uh given that we have an override coming up. Um it's not something that I would support or like to see. Um so yeah, well I'll share the time. I'd like to hear what other people have to say.

So Mr. Chair, my question is are we talking about the process of withdrawing from CPA or are we talking about whether or not we should withdraw from the CPA and then dissolve the CPC? What what are it says here discuss withdrawal from Community Preservation Act? So, if that's what the if that's what the agenda item is, I'm thinking maybe we can talk about that before we talk about the process of withdrawing from it. Sure. Yeah. This was something that was floated at the budget. I just want to make sure I got that right. Uh last Tuesday, um we asked Evan to gather some more information about it. Y um so I mean that's basically where we're at. It's it's

initial discussions um what that would look like uh you know what sort of financial impact uh we can we can expect. So, I don't think anything's really off the table in terms of discussion tonight. Whatever you're Whatever you feel like.

Well, I'll just I'll just jump in then. In terms of the of withdrawing or not withdrawing. I I I'm with Matt. I'm not for withdrawing from this. This is the as far as I can tell and I'm definitely not the same level of expert on the budget that maybe uh Mary and Evan might be, but this community the CPC funds feels like the only place that has this fence around it that does only things specifically to benefit the community. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. There's four buckets and those buckets are to benefit the community from AHT, open space, recreation, etc. And in my view, like if you take that away, sure, you'll save a few bucks, but you're what are you giving up in return? And I'm probably someone that if you knew me a few years ago, you'd be like, "What are you talking about? That I'm more of like a lower tax base, probably kind of an individual, but I recognize that there's buts and takes." And that what you get out of this, I think, is worth more. I think it's worth keeping. In fact, in my mind, it's worth keeping. And I'm not comfortable even bothering to vote to uh withdraw from it. It's personal opinion. Again, it's just that that last place, that only place that has this fence around it that says this money must benefit this community. Period. Down the end, turn the page. Move something else. Go to another bucket. Find your money for anything else. Leave this alone. And uh I don't know, there's things that we've done that I think look good. So that's my personal opinion. I'm going to share uh some flip side ideas to that uh that were kind of floated at the the last meeting which um you know you were unfortunately unable to attend but um that one and a half% brings us in about $750,000 annually. Um I'm again not not taking a position on on whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. Just trying to be factual in the

presentation. um you know if uh just to use round numbers um we were proposing a a 3% override um this is one and a half% that would basically shift you know we would we would withdraw from CPA removing that 1 and a.5% search charge from the residents um but it's a one and a half% they're already used to paying for so that 3% override then looks more like 1 and a.5% because uh that that first one and a half% just more or less transfers over. So again, we're talking about you potentially creative solutions to um you know figure out how to address the budget shortfall.

So there's two things. Uh the first is I I definitely did miss last week and I was traveling and that was an unforeseen meeting scheduled. So uh my bad for Miss I really wanted to be a part of it. No, I know you know that and I know you've you've all been really um flexible with me in this uh new thing that's going on with all this travel, but um I I didn't know that the 3% override was a foregone conclusion. Done. Let's move on. It's not I I pulled that number out of thin air for and then the second thing would be I know that when you do the I mean

I'm trying to think how I can equate this but 1.5% might not equal to whatever that reduction or addition might be could be $750,000 and that's good. Now where does that money go? Where's who gets that money? And if you're in the community, you might be thinking, well, there's a lot of money that goes in a lot of different places for a lot of different departments. And I like my 1.5% to, you know, fix up a park. I like that. And I that might be an unpopular opinion or position to take. And if it is, so be it. But, uh, I just think it's just this it's a short amount of money to protect that we could keep an eye on that would help benefit the community. But fair point because there is, you know, I love the creative idea of it, that aspect of it. I really respect and appreciate that. We have to keep doing that. We have to keep being creative and innovative and as and as strategic and thoughtful as we possibly can. And I realize that that's this. So, I'm only offering, you know, my my feelings about this particular topic about withdrawing. I don't know. For some reason, it doesn't feel perfect for me. Just one voter. H

um I guess if we're talking about it, I guess I guess I'm gonna agree with Mark. I you know, initially I'm like, "All right, this is going to save some money." Um you know, um for the taxpayers for, you know, kind of offsite a potential override. Um but it's once it's gone, it's going to be gone. And that committee has done an incredible work and we all see we all see their efforts when we drive around town whether it's a park land preservation historical uh restoration and um it's something that if that goes away I think it's it's going to impact the quality of life here. So and I don't want to see us us continue to eat away at town quality of life services to fund our operating budget. you know, that's just that's just a bad policy and it's just um not a good way, I don't think, to run the town. Um we we need to keep our eye on land preservation. We need to keep our eye on recreational opportunities and and with this gone, where that where's that money going to come from? Because we know we do have capital money, but we have a lot of capital requests every year. A lot of it safety related. So I I don't see those projects continuing moving forward. And so um there would be a savings, but I think at the end of the day, um there would be a lot more lost than gained. Um yeah, Craig, you mentioned um quality of life and uh that's what CPA is about. Um and I I agree with what you've said about that. Um I do think that uh the operational budget though also contributes to quality of life too. So that we have all these other services including you know public safety and schools and whatnot.

So um I I don't know. It's uh I think it it's a one of those things where I I think we could make the case that we want to um allow voters to make the choice because we're having to make some really difficult decisions this year about what our service priorities are and how to how to make the budget work not just this year but ongoing. Um, and to me, this uh could factor in for um allowing voters choices about what their priorities are and um and what they want to fund. So, um I'm I'm a little bit on the fence about this. I'd be interested to talk a little bit more about the process and what it might mean longer term, but um I I approach it more from the standpoint of giving the voters choice. Um but as I've said, like you know, this is the sole funding source for affordable housing, which I'm a strong supporter of. Um if CPA were to end, there would be no ongoing funding at all for that. uh which I'm not in favor of. Um so I just want to sort of be clear on my position that um while I I may support offering the choice up, it's not something I support personally. I think it's a reasonable distinction. Um, I think I think it is possible that we could uh earmark funds annually for the affordable housing trust outside of the of the CPA if if you know that that um continues to be a priority. Um, you know, I I think the the flip argument can be made that uh you know, things like schools also improve the quality of life in town. So, you know, it it's uh different priorities for different

people. Um, again, it's I agree it's not an easy decision. I think we've we've done well with our CPA funds. Um, but you know, uh, worth considering. I I also had a couple logistical questions for Evan because, you know, it's like stereo instructions. Um, it it didn't seem like we could withdraw this fiscal year um, if we have insufficient funds to meet our existing obligations. Um there is one section that outlined uh that un uh you you couldn't use um where is it tax levy or available funds and then later on it says uh or it says you do not have the option of ending the search charge and paying outstanding obligations from the tax levy. However, you can pay it using the tax levy or available funds. Um so I think you know we need a little clarification there. Similarly, uh in the example they they list it would it would take uh both a town meeting vote and a ballot vote and there's not 35 days in between um those two dates for us to uh you know get one approved and then put the second on the ballot. Um so I don't know if that's something that we can kind of parallel path uh like an override or or whatever some you know another vote that that requires both of those things. So, um, you know, logistically there's some questions. Um, I know we have members of the CPC in in attendance. This is not a decision we would make without, uh, you know, not having you in first and and giving the committee a a chance to um, you know, make a case as to why we should stay in and and the the the benefits of the program. But um like I said, this was

just uh the initial initial kickoff and conversation. Um

just one more thing when you're done. I would just say that you know just to Matt's point just we're not hearing an outcry from the residents asking us to do away with this program either. You know what I mean? So, um, so I think it's this board's decision that, you know, whether whether we agree whether we do or we don't and then move forward based on that on that vote. But I I don't I don't hear people telling us to do away with CPA. Um, never heard that. So, I think uh just make that comment. feel like I'm devil's advocating all night, but we do hear people routinely asking us to lower their uh you know their taxes and their tax base.

Well, there's a lot of ways to say that every five minutes. Um I vote for that too, Andy. Yeah. Hey, we lower my taxes. This is this is a lever uh you know. Yeah. Putting it up. You thought you went home. Would they keep you hostage up there? First of all, nobody remember that was an option. Thought it was an option. Got some. Sure. I shouldn't say yes. I'm not sure. Julian Duncan, 6 Apple Lane. I understand what you just said there. Sorry, now I lost my thoughts. I think because Evan walked in the room. I am very distracted. I apologize.

I know. Um, you know, to say that people are telling you that they want their taxes lessened. I get it. And we're looking at an override. I get it. The override is going to be for the schools and probably public safety. The CPA, as Craig and Mark both eloquently said, helps everyone in the community. The schools, I'm a firm believer, good schools, good community, hands down. But not everybody has children in the schools. Public safety, knock on wood, they've never had to come to my house. But I love the fact that they're keeping all of my neighbors and me safe. CPA, all of those things that we want the school children to have, mental health, um what's the phrase they use? Health, wellness, and something within the school committee. the outdoors, the historic aspects of this town, um the fields to walk away from this 17% of $750,000 is more than zero. The other thing that people have to remember too is my understanding is there's a hund $100,000 is exempt on your tax bill before that search charge is applied. So when you start talking about well if we take away this one and a half then that helps with the 3% of the override it doesn't it's not a complete comparison there and I don't think it's fair to put that out to people when you haven't kind of laid out how exactly the act works and that 17% that you're getting that varies and the only reason we're only getting 17% this year is because we're at 1 and a.5% search charge. If we had a higher search charge, we would go for that second

round of funding and then potentially the third. That number has a lot to do with what's in the trust fund at the state level every year. So that 17% next year could be 25%. It's hard to know. Has it typically gone up in the past?

It's It varies. It's been 25 in the past. It's been I think it was 13 one year, but then it went back up. Ken Hullberger or Colleen probably could give you more accurate, more current information around that. I don't often come up to this podium, but this one I was like, you got to be kidding me. I get it. But is this an attempt to make it really really think about this? This is shortsighted. This is really shortsighted on the part of this board. really think about this long term and what that means because it might help you get an override passed. Work harder on selling the override. Mr. T, you do have one hand on. Sure.

Greetings. This is Michael Rock 8 Trinity A. Um, just wanted to bring a quick question to this. Uh, the CPA was passed and I'm guessing any tax measure that increases people's tax bills was hard fought and may not be something we can replicate in the future. I am all for funding schools. I am all for funding public safety. I am for some CPA and the CPC. Um, you know, $750,000 is $750,000. Uh, I feel like we're lacking some nuance here on the CPA and the CPC funding. Uh, instead of totally considering obliteration, perhaps we could consider a reduction. That would keep the CPC in force. That would still allow us to continue some of the services to the community, but it would reduce the tax bill, making the override a little less painful. Uh would you consider a reduction in the CPC funding rather than complete obliteration?

Yeah, I don't think anything's off the table. We're uh again just um you know trying to come up with uh some options for people to choose from. Yeah, I feel like a reduction you know keeps the institutional momentum in place would allow us to access you know some of the money. um and should be considered. I have a question, Mr. Chair. It could be for Colleen or Joanne or John. Thank you, Mike. Uh if it's we're 1.5%. If we go to 1%, I'm not saying I want to do that. I'm just saying if we did, does that change the matching funds? Not the percentage of matching funds.

So, it would just be be able to do it. It may not be legal. We don't I don't know the answer to that. What may not be legal? to reduce. John, if you're gonna Oh, yeah. Right. Sorry. Thank you, Mr. Chair. John, 1% is low. But we're at one, but you're saying 1% is low.

John Stevens, I'm the chairman of historical uh sorry, that too. Um, committee presentation. Um, I don't know if you can legally reduce it from one and a half because we're currently one and a half to 1%. You could increase that 100 $100,000 exclusion to 200,000 or whatever amount you choose to because we tried to do this to make it affordable. It that would then reduce um the amount that would be collected. I think that that you can do. Um I think I answered that question. I wasn't going to say anything because I didn't have any notice and I otherwise I would come better prepared to answer these questions. I would have talked to the coalition to find out the answers about the votes and the requirements and what you can and what you cannot do.

Um, but I think this is penny pennywise and pound foolish. It's not just if you're saying $750,000 because we leverage dollars. The grants that we have, we always ask if not require if possible a match so that it's not just our $750,000. it's from the organization like the Lions Club, nonprofits. We ask nonprofits, we ask the churches that are doing things to kick in. We ask uh or we go to grants sources uh for um matching grants. The state Mass Historical gives us grants. They're matching. So, we don't have to spend the whole amount of funds for the grant. So, that $750,000 is only a piece of what the benefit that you're getting. And you could say, "Okay, we're going to save 750." But you could be losing a million and a half dollars

annually. And then you're not going to have the townhouse. You're not going to have that half million dollar property purchase that we just did last fall along the Blackstone River. You're not going to have all our parks handicapped accessible. Or you will, but then you're going to have to have another override to do it.

And that will be difficult. Are the pro are the projects excl uh avail projects open to those grants because they're exclusively CPA projects or they just general anybody that wants to write a grant. I mean that's we ask that the people requesting funds get funds and we will I will give them information they may have their own grant funding like trust for public land paid for half of Hasset Woods. The land trust will match money a lot of the time. You know that we have there local foundations in town. There are lots of places that you can get money and so we're a resource for that as well as being a funding source so that we can put them in touch with other groups. Um but they may have their own. They may like the fire station is applying for funds. They're going to use some of their own money. They raised their own money just like the the bridge in North Craft. They did it for Steve Rooney. They raised their own money. So, it's a you're you're throwing a rock in the lake and all these ripples and these ripples are going to bring back different sources of funds. It may be $100 for this project, but a half a million for another. And it's so it's not a straight line. It's not dollar for dollar every time, but you we definitely get a lot more benefit from CPA than the $750,000 that we collect in the assessment. And that would be really hard to replicate in a one-stop shop that you would have to have all these different group all these different independent people trying to do things and it's going to be more staff work I guess on planning I don't know what recreation all the different um departments that would have to support trying to coordinate these projects where they're now through us and we're volunteer

but do you guys do that grant writing and application? We help them with it. We will help people. We I don't write a grant for you, but I will help you. I will talk to you say this is a good place that you can go. These are people that can help you. You know, if need be, we would we certainly because we want people to get the money, so we'll do what we can to help them. John, can you um just uh thanks for coming up and uh and outlining all that. It's a really good context. Um I hope it's clear that I support CPA. Um, I engage in this discussion more as an exploratory idea. As a part of that, um,

can I just sort of confirm and clarify that the $100,000 exemption is basically the first $100,000 of the value of your house and land or whatever, right? It's exempted and the one and a half% is for everything else, right? So that and again, the assessor is going to have a better answer than I am. Sure. Or more accurate answer, but that's the way it works. So if you want to raise that, you know, you could say half a million dollar cuz houses are now a million dollars in grafting. Sure. You know, that's going to you're still going to get a lot of money. That will hurt that will reduce the amount of projects that we can fund, but at least it wouldn't kill us. Gotcha.

You know, and I just you this is some This is the goose that laid the golden egg. Please don't kill the goose. It's free money. I I hear you. Thanks. Sure. You got a lot of people working really hard. I know.

To make this happen. And I know everybody in town does a lot, but to have a funding source to do a lot of these things and this has always been the icing on the cake. And that's when I first because I've been on CPC since day one. And that's how it was described in the training that they had. This is the icing on the cake. These are the things that you want for your town that you couldn't afford to do otherwise that you will never be able to fund unless you live in a town like Welssley that has unlimited resources and you're getting other sources to help you pay for it, which is the bonus. So, Mr. Chair, I just thank

one last thing that I need to say is um that's all true. Um, and we're in a situation where we can't fund our schools. So,

well, we can fund our schools. We we we're funding our schools, Matt. That's that's a that's a little bit of an exaggeration. Our schools are everybody's going to get funded. The question is, how much funding are they going to get more than the prior year? They are going to get more money than they got last year. The question is, are they going to get less more money or more more money? So, they will be funded. The schools will be funded. So will all of the other departments in the town, but it's not easy, right? Because it costs a lot of money to live here. And we keep putting this burden out there. We keep saying, "Well, we're not funding. We're funding the schools. They're getting funded."

Not to the level at which they need.

Well, I'm just then you get into, well, what do you really need then? Like what is level services? Like if someone has a job and they want to make 10% more money, but you pay them 5% more money, they can still do the job. So when you say they're not doing level services, they're probably going to get level services. And that is a very getting every email saying the exact same thing. Level services, you're going to get your level services. It just might cost a little bit less money or it might cost the same amount of money. It might cost more money. We might do a full override. But to say that we're not providing level services for the schools, I don't think that's an accurate statement. I think that's a little bit like it's an exaggeration. They're going to get funded. They're going to get funded.

How how can you argue that reducing 18 school staff positions is level? That's not what I'm arguing. It is though. I think that is not what I'm arguing. See, my argument so it's not it wasn't here last week. My argument would be

is it all or nothing? Is that what it has to be? Is that what we're discussing? were saying we're going to get another $1.5 to2 million or we just have to lay everybody off or and and that's what some companies do and I never understood why a company wouldn't say hey guys we're in a position we're going to have to lay 150 people off unless you take a pay freeze unless you don't get 10% more you get 3% more and by the way those are called colas cost of living adjustments. And in my personal experience, and I know the discussion is is that it's different in a town than it is in a company. No, 1 plus 1 equals two. It's not different. My experience is you get a 3% cola period done the end and you're welcome or you get 2% or you get nothing. In my career, I've had a a blend of everything from nothing to getting laid off, which isn't fun, which is what we don't have to do. We don't have to do that. Or we could say, hey, instead of taking 6% or 7%, how about we just give you a 4% cola? Would that be okay? I don't even know if we can do that. So, my position is not do it, don't do it, and just lay everybody off. That's not I don't think that I don't even know anybody whose position that actually is. My position would be could we scrutinize it a little bit more? Could we get that a little bit tighter? And if we can't, I will be the first to vote for putting an override on the ballot and voting for an override. But I think Andy, it's not what it's not so much that people it it's all or nothing. People just want to know that if they can't get their own three or two or 4% in their own lives, why are we giving it elsewhere? Why do

we all have to make that sacrifice? Which, by the way, I haven't had a kid in school for years. I'm paying paid before, during, and after. I'm all in. So, this is not when the keyboard warriors start heating up tonight about whatever it is that I'm saying. I will just simply say save it because I've invested in this town. So, I'm not speaking selfishly. I'm trying to speak objectively. The point would be, is it possible instead of six, could you do five? Instead of six, could you do four? Instead of five, could you do three? And that's my point about it's not that we're not funding for level services. And I think I understand what that means. But it's about making shared sacrifices and not laying everybody off or 12 people off or six people off because that is your risk. I don't know if you've noticed, but there are new names calling in, there are new faces jumping into this this discussion and as much as we are talking about being an override dependent town, I think that's the phraseiology that's used. There are people stepping up saying, "Huh? For wait, what? What does that mean? And what am I getting?" And if we take that chance of all or nothing, if we get to nothing, that could be really bad news. That is what I personally would like to avoid for anybody who's listening and watching. And for my my uh my fellow members of select board, I am not trying to be a jerk about this. And in fact, I don't think I'm being a jerk about this. I think I'm looking at this as my personal experience is I'd rather make 2% or 0% than get laid off. And that might be the possibility here, Andy. That's a real possibility. Going back to, you've seen some of the new names and faces stepping. I don't know who these people are, but now people are tuning in. They're waking up. They're

listening. They're dial in. The last select board meeting I had, we talked about this, the one before this. I never received more feedback than that discussion, that meeting, than that one in all the near three years I've been here. And that's because they're saying, "Yeah, please keep saying that. We want our schools to be funded. We want our highway department to be funded. We want our fire and safety to be funded, but we want to be really responsible about it. We have to be who somebody said something about, you know, we got to save the 1% the 1.5%." Yeah, I will. Um because we have about this later on. So we Yeah, I feel like we're gonna get there right now. Sorry. Yeah, I apologize. Thank you. Okay. Is your comment CPA related or budget related?

Budget related. All right, let's hold on to those. I'll hold it. Thank you. Um, is the potential withdrawal something that we would like to at least explore further? Uh, discuss further, invite the the CPC in to discuss, or um, is this something we don't wish to discuss? Uh, an option we we wish to take off the table moving forward. Do you want to say anything? I'm asking you because you're on CPC. Well, there's that's a This isn't up to them. This is up to Okay. Sorry. Didn't know if you wanted more input from the crowd. If I was up there, I'd have stuff to say.

This is just Do we wish to continue the discussion about potentially withdrawing from CPA or not? Not Not for me. No.

No. Me neither. I mean, I I don't I don't there's probably zero percent of chance for me changing my mind on this. I mean, Marie isn't here. So, um, you know, we don't have, you know, we don't have her her viewpoint. Um, but for me, I'm not interested in in doing giving up this the value that it brings for trying to, you know, ease the pain for an operational issue. Um, so I'm not interested in doing it, but I'm one vote. So,

um, so where I'm at on this is, um, based on the discussion that we've had tonight, um, I think it's not something that I would be interested in pursuing in terms of withdrawing from CP CPA. Um but I am interested in the exemption and just considering um let's say we went from a 100,000 to 200,000 in terms of the exemption. What would that mean in terms of CPA funding?

That's something that I would um be interested in looking at. And the the main reason for that is uh for the folks that are on fixed incomes that that exemption may help them significantly in a way that could help mitigate the uh impact of an override. Um but I'm you know after tonight's discussion and just I'm not in favor of withdrawing but I am for looking at other options related to CPA. Um and I would like to hear what Emry has to say. Yeah. So, could we run like a to Matt's point, could you run a what if like on I don't know if you can do that calculation on what what it would mean at 200,000.

Yeah. Or a 1% instead of a one and a half%. If you can do that, sounds like maybe we can. Uh

oh. So, if I could jump in for a second. So there is an IGR um from the Department of Local Services that um does talk about the um simultaneous revocation and amendment to questions of whether or not you can revoke uh but the amended rate applies to any search charges that must be assessed the wind up blah blah blah. So does look like there's an avenue for it. Um I would think that the community's best path if this is the direction the board wants to go is probably to look at the exemption number and not the percentage applied to the the portion thereafter. I agree

by by what the IGR is and these are all on the fly questions obviously but from what I'm gleaming from this particular IGR right now it seems like that's that would be the the better way to approach that exercise. So are we happy with just running that number? You can change Joanne. You got to come to the microphone. Joanne Duncan, six apple retain. I don't think you can change that 100,000. I think that's written in the act. Yeah, I you you could very well be right. Again, I'm doing it on the fly. So, I'm happy to I'm happy to be wrong on that, Joanne. You I don't know, but I would I think your best bet is to check on that before you do a lot of work.

I've heard of Joanne, quite frankly. But so, but the chair just said that that was an option. So, well, we'll let me do some due diligence and then we'll we'll come back. But, like I said, I got to Can we do this? Why not? Can we could we have could we have Evan look into it and then have him maybe for the next regular meeting? give just do it under um administrator reports and kind of give us an and then if based on that if we want to put it back on the agenda to to tweak the number if we then we can do that but I yeah you know I'm fine with that

again I don't see people's you know complaining about it and I think it's we should we should keep it in the form that it's in but I think it's worth going through it. Okay, let's do that then. Mr. Chair, you do have one hand on him. Um, can I be forehand, please? Just I'll send the IGR out to CPC as well, just so that you all have it to know what I'm talking about. Oh, Joan's not on CPC. Hello.

Uh, all right. Well, if you want to join, you know where I am. Hand on Zoom, please. Hi. Uh it's Dan Kusher, uh 79 Keith Hill Road. Um I'm also the uh chair of the Grafton Affordable Housing Trust. Uh but speaking on my own behalf, um the uh so the affordable hous gets you know considerable amount of money from uh CPA and uh I I was also very much in favor of keeping it until I started to hear the things that Mr. Alamo is saying about possibly not even proposing a level services override uh for the voters. Um and I I think what I said what does this have to do with the uh

that's not what I said. Stop. We have comment right now. Let's let's let the comment finish. So am I am I okay? Can I can you hear me? Yeah, proceed, Mr. Ker.

Okay. Um, sorry, that really threw me off. Um, so okay. Uh, if we're not if we're potentially, I guess, not putting a level services override on the ballot for the voters to decide on. Uh I think not giving this option to reduce or uh get out of CPA uh seems to me like that is then putting um you know these really nice things like parks um and historic preservation at a higher priority than education. Um, and I I think once you start letting our schools uh the the quality of our schools deteriorate, uh, you're going to see the whole character of our community begin to change and that'll be a whole lot worse for the town than uh losing some of the CPA funding. Um, so I I guess I think my point is I don't really feel like this can be if it's being considered as something that can help offset some of the increase of an override, I don't think it can be considered separately from where the board lands on an override uh number to put on the ballot. Um, and so I hope it would at least continue to be part of the conversation uh as as that conversation continues. Thank you.

Thanks. Do you want to answer that or do you want me to

You can I'll just say this, Dan. I think it's it's a real stretch for you to say that it's one or the other. We're not picking CPA over funding the school. And that's what you said. This isn't a this isn't a you know, pick one or the other. It was an idea that was floated and we're talking about it, but it's not like, yeah, we're going to keep CPC and then underfund the school. That's basically what you said and that's not true. So, we're going to bring we're going to bring this back. We're going to have uh Evan get some more info for us. Um, we'll coordinate that and get it on a upcoming agenda, part of the future budget discussion, what have you. Um, we did have a couple questions on the 1727 paperwork. Um, we opted to hold off on the vote on that until you returned and in the event that there were things that were um, easy to to answer. Okay, Carol, do you want to come back up for us? I have to remember what I said.

I I got it written written down. We'll we'll send it to me if you one on environmental insurance and one on the RTN number. Yes. Yeah. If you can. And then the budget where where for the to fund the um agreement the 100k where is that coming from? Uh so the 100k would be uh proceeds of the sale. Correct. So it's just it just gets held in escrow essentially is how that would work. Right. So instead of the like what 650 we would recognize, you know, 550,

right? 550. Correct. Yeah. Thereabouts with, you know, um um as far as the environmental insurance, my understanding that we won't the town won't need environmental insurance um because once we convey the property, it's not our liability anymore. So the the remediation agreement shifts that liability from the town to the developer. Um, but I I'm perfectly happy with uh following up with council if that's what the board wants me to do. Um, and then uh I don't understand why we would need an additional RTN number unless I'm misreading this. What's your what's your thought on that, Bob?

Um, so you want to hit that one first? So that one it's listed in the database, right? As our as an RTN number that's connected to the town. Yeah. Yes. Correct. So there's two. Yep. And and one is the one the more pressing the more recent all the other one the other one the correspondence I think was back with um well I think it was actually the documentation. So we had Tim but then we had a temp right? Didn't we have a temp TA for a while? Correct.

I think all the correspondence went to that individual. So, I'm just saying if we're if we're creating these covenants and and legal documents, you know, instead of being mis have a have a swing and a miss, just have it in there, right? So, so they assume both of them because it is listed in the database. You can go look it up. Yep. Yep. Okay. I understand the question now.

Yeah. And then the other one, and I kind of touched on this and you know, we've got all these documents from um EPA, right? But the the one where they sent to the town the notice of responsibility and I think the other woman that brought it up was right cuz this this is dated the 20 uh 2020. So we knew about this you know for for a long time. Y

um but this notice of responsibility and again I'm not I'm not going to go down the the lawyer path on this but in talking to people that are knowledgeable in these matters um because it's a municipality um at the end of the day you can't run away from that because when the we'll just call it an incident right when the the transgression of the incident happened the town owned the property so the town is essentially on the hook So you can hire third parties, you can, you know, contract with other people to do the remediation, but if they were to go bankrupt or something was to happen, the town is still on the hook. So you can like never outrun it until, you know, it's been fully remediated and and approved and signed off. And that's where it kind of led into that conversation about the insurance, right? so that the town has yet another layer and and kind of limits the exposure and be a listed party. So, you know, instead of um being tied to the um LLC that was formed between um John Grant and uh Brendan. Yep.

Right. you would be tied into BR to Brandon Properties, which obviously has much more assets, much more property, and be listed on their insurance as an insured party. So, that that was what that was all about. Okay.

So, again, it's more protecting, you know, cuz it I get what's going on here. I mean, it's it's, you know, it is what it is at this point. It's more, okay, let's make sure the town isn't exposed. you know, whatever happens happens and we don't get into limbo somewhere where, you know, they dig and they find something else that wasn't part of the wells and around, you know, I think the the incident had to do with um drainage or the, you know, the drains went in and whatever. Yeah. And, you know, we all know it was a town barn and we all know what kind of maintenance and stuff goes on for what, like 80 years there, right? Long time. Yeah. Yeah. you know,

so in my and I'm not an environmental lawyer or a regular lawyer uh at all. I guess I don't have to be specific. Um but in my conversations with council about this issue, the entire purpose of that uh remediation agreement is to shift that that burden. Now, you're you're right. If the developer were to go bankrupt or anybody we sold the property to with a remediation agreement went bankrupt, it it's going to trickle back to whoever created the mess. Um but at the same time, so so not at the same time, but you know, you can't mitigate every aspect of the risk. Um and we do have a pretty solid mitigation agreement, right? So, um, the idea is that they own it. They go bankrupt 50 years from now. Um, we we could be on the hook, but the odds of that occurring are that coming all the way back to the town. Um, when there's a building on it and a parking lot and everything else or

Yeah. Not so much then. The concern was once the site the site work started, right, and they hit something that Yep. Um, but that's the whole point of the remediation agreement is they find something new, they find something we didn't know about. Well, I get that. That's that's a them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them problem and not us problem which is um and I I don't I don't have an opinion uh which way the board goes either way on however the board wants to act is how the board acts but from a town administrator perspective you know shifting that liability to the developer uh you know is is kind

then the other part is you know and I and I I I know you guys the board you know did a lot of deliberation negotiation you know to get in the executive session to get down to 100 grand which again is masterful and you know applaud you for that. Um so there's you know yes it's you know a decent amount of money but you know I could see it being a whole lot more money right. Um and then the other thing was and I didn't hear you say it um was the timeline. So, you're going to close on the 1, right, of April. Prior to Yes.

And then um the um response to the um violation said we we the town had to have that to them by June 6th, I think, or June 2nd. Yes. Is that enough time? Are they going to be able to meet that? Yeah, because we're we're doing our we already have things in motion, right? And they're using the same environmental firm. Um Tai uh No. So, Parker. Yes, Parker. So, we'll be able to That was part of the consideration of the conversation. No, it was a it wasn't a statement. It was a question. Yeah. So, that's the idea there is that we're just going to hand that off and they'll Okay.

they'll be able to meet that timeline. Um I I honestly have no I'm not even going to try to answer the RTN number to be honest with you. I mean, I I the way I think about it is they're taking ownership of the property and they're going to own everything that's connected to that. So, you know, they'll have to call it the other one, consolidate it, right? Um but I I don't know that that poses any particular liability to the town. Okay. It's just a suggestion. That's all. Well, and it's not something that we can't bring up or mention. I just don't know that it right. I don't know that it matters. Uh if you go through the AR that that database, there's archaic numbers that just float around out there that they seem to just create a new one and there's a lot of stuff in there.

There's a lot of stuff in there. Yeah, I've I've But with 1727 there there's two. Yes, I've I've I've seen both of those RTM numbers. Um but I I don't know I don't know that that presents any okay greater liability to the town. Yeah. Um if that's an uncomfortable position, then we can go back and get more uh information. I I don't I that's as far as I can go on that. Right. Right. Okay. Those are just those were the points though. Thank you. Thanks, Bob. Thank you. Appreciate that.

Sure. Um thoughts or comments? I I'm I'm comfortable moving forward um and voting to sign at this point. Uh Mr. Chair,

Mr. Uh so before we do that, one of the reasons why I was hoping that we could have this discussion, give people a little advanced notice as to what's coming versus a few weeks ago was because uh you know this is not one of those um you know um low-key issues. This is something that people have a lot of eyes and a lot of opinions and a lot of feelings about it. And so, um, I do want to just walk through some of my personal rationale for why I wound up where I did on this. If that's okay with you, I can do it in just a couple minutes. Sure.

And I do that because I want to be transparent with the people that voted for me and that are curious about this topic. And just I'll start with addressing you, Mr. Carol. You made a few comments about um us doing our due diligence, and we actually really did. And so it isn't it wasn't just a a quick conversation. It wasn't one conversation. And um and it wasn't without a lot of like due diligence and deeper thinking and and more research. And so just if anybody's wondering about that, there was a lot of good conversation and this board of five really did uh scrutinize details. I mean they were documents with all kinds of red lines, blue lines and yellow lines all over it and a lot of back and forth on it. And ultimately one of some of the reasons I will be supporting this include this the initial agreement that we made about this part of the remediation. I want to be careful how I say but it felt like a little bit of ambiguity. You could say that it's it was our responsibility or someone else could have concluded well it's their responsibility and you've asked some really good questions here Mr. Carol and as you navigate through it with attorneys who are um that's their job to to understand this stuff they walk through it and there was a little bit of ambiguity around it. So if we were to say we're not going to deal with this the second thing or really the first thing that was on my mind was just saying we're not going to do this. you know, there could be some sort of a response to that. And that felt risky for me relative to supporting something like this for the town. Whatever could come back our way might be just too much. And I don't know that everybody shares my opinion on that, but I felt like a little risky to to call it off and just say, "Forget it. You figure it out. If not, we walk away." That was a

lot for me. Um the other piece for me for whoever is interested in this is that this was uh introduced many some years ago and it was introduced to other people on this board and you know there's a part of me that you could come back and scrutinize it and disagree with it and maybe it's the jersey in me a little bit but if we're not we're not good for our word what are we? And there were people that voted for this on this board that had the authority to vote for it and call it. And there's a part of me that wanted to honor and respect that because if we come up in agreement on something tonight and in four years somebody peels back and says, "I don't like the way Alamo or Dandy or whatever, I don't know. We're supposed to honor that." And people voted for that. And then the last piece um for me is that we are going to have to pay for it at some way one way or another. I mean at the end of the day we're on the hook for it. And you made the best point of the evening Mr. Carol and we nailed it. We did really well. We did really for all things considered $100,000 compared to what it could be could have been. Um that's the remediation is never going to go away. So that is in fact why I will be supporting this and I know there's a lot of other opinions but I just wanted to share that and Mr. Chair and and and Evan thank you for giving me the opportunity to express this. This was important to me to share this with people that are interested.

Thanks. Welcome. Anybody else? Um I'll just just chime in quickly. Um, I won't go into a lot of detail, but I will be voting against there's four votes. I will be voting against all of them. Um, this is this is um this this is a bad developer.

This is a bad project. This is a bad place for it. This is going to, I think, um, do irreparable damage to to the common and it's it's not in in keeping with the character of the town. It's certainly not what the RFP said when when the town put it out. There's been so many mistakes and bad decisions with this project. I I will not be a part of it. Um I did not support any of the any of this, you know, um executive session uh stuff. I just thought it was all wrong and um just want to just put my feelings out there. When this thing is built, we will see. But this is this is bad in just so many ways. I'll just leave it at that.

Um yeah, I'll be brief. Uh, and Mark, this is this was a it was a difficult conversation we had um in executive session and I really appreciate every single board member's willingness to engage in meaningful discussion and to think about the needs of the town overall. Um, I don't I don't think this was easy for anybody and I'm not sure if any board member was really happy totally happy with where we ended up, but I think as a board we we came through it pretty well. Um, I don't want to comment too much on this project, but you know, this was something that the town voted for at town meeting. We put an RFP out. If you look at the drawings on the RFP, pretty similar to what what's being built. Um but these agreements to sort of just stick to that. Um this is a very inexpensive uh insurance policy as far as I'm concerned. You know, we had assessments from 250 to 400 in terms of the remediation. We're getting out of it for hold back of a maximum of 100 and then we're indemnified for any additional liability. Um, and for me, um, you know, the the project has already gone through the planning process with the special permit and all that stuff. So really for us, it's just how do we deal with this one individual issue of the environmental remediation. And as far as I could tell, this was a very inexpensive way for the town to move through that um, and to uh, secure that long-term, you know, perpetual indemnification. So, I think all in all, this is a a good result for the town. Um, even though I would have preferred to spend no money on it, which uh I I think this is a good deal for the town. So,

for that reason, I'm going to support it.

Yeah, I'll um make it four and piggyback off that. um those the points about the the current deal have have been made in terms of you know what the what the estimated costs and and whatnot were. Um again going back to if if the deal went south and the town were on the hook for this and we assumed uh you know that that that remediation would cost us say 600,000 as opposed to the you know 250 that it's estimated at now. um you know that that to me makes it an even better deal. Um when you then factor in that that this h 100,000 protects that and the approximate $1 million investment uh that the affordable housing trust has in that then we've protected roughly a baseline of $1.6 million in taxpayer funds to the tune of $100,000 insurance policy. Um, again, I think should this project go sideways, uh, because of the actions of this board, it would be reasonable to assume legal action from the developer and from the trust to try and recoup some of that some of that grant agreement money. Um, so that 1.6 million can can continue up from there. Um, so, uh, yeah, to me, this was a this was a slam dunk. So,

well, to to say that the trust is going to take action against the town, I mean, I just think that's that's a really unfair statement. You know, what the trust does with their money is their own business. I thought what they did was was not was was not the right thing to do and not didn't use good judgment. Um, but but for to say that they were going to come back on the town, I don't consider that outside the scope of possibility. Well, likely we could argue I don't think they can do what they want. We own the land and we're getting a project that's going to destroy the common. So live with that. That's what's going to happen. Okay. That's exactly what's going to happen, Andy.

So I don't believe we need to include the regulatory agreement and declaration of restrictive covenants. That was just an example. Correct. Yep. Okay. Um we we did we said we'd put them all in the packet, so that's why they're all in the packet, right? Um, so we could take a motion that excludes that one particular document. What's the document that we're the last one on there? The regulatory agreement and declaration of restrictive covenants.

Okay. Uh, I move the board vote to approve and sign the third amendment to the purchase and sale agreement, the environmental holdback and escrow agreement, and the land disposition agreement for 1727 Upton Street as presented.

Second. Well done. Um, motion made second. Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor? I I opposed. I motion passes three to one. Okay, next up, um, we have a renewal of a class 3 license for Mike's Care at 101 Wester Street. Um, again, as I understand it, there was a a zip code error that caused this uh license reapplication to come in late, otherwise it would have been in our full January batch of of renewals. Um, so that's why it's uh kind of split out as a one-off tonight. No, no changes, no updates. Same same license they've had, just seeking to renew. Any questions, comments?

Nope. All right, let's take a motion. Mr. Chair, I I move the board vote to renew the class 3 license but held by Mike's car care center. Second. Okay, been seconded. Any discussion? All those in favor? I

opposed. Okay. Uh, board of registars's annual appointment. Um, so for this one, I I uh believe you only need a request from us to send a letter to the Republican Town Committee. Uh, and you know, for for resident edification, we um are are tasked with trying to maintain a balance between both the prevailing political parties and the state. Uh the the board seat that is up this year is specifically Republican held. So we will be reaching out to Republican Town Committee to submit a list of names, eligible names for the seat that's expiring uh at the end of March. So um if you could instruct Amber to do so, that would be

I I think uh you need to vote though um to send a letter. Yep. That's how Amber has I'm just going to go by what Amber told me to do. Yep. I'll make a motion, Mr. Chair. Sure. I move the board vote to send a letter to the chair of the Republican Town Committee requesting a list of free individuals to be considered for the seat on the board of registars. Second. Motion and seconded. Any discussion? All those in favor? I I next up uh vote to withdraw from Mass Strategic Health Group.

Yep. So, as we've uh been discussing, uh we've switch we're switching our health in healthc care collaborative over from uh Mass Strategic to the GIC. Um we've already done our onboarding with the GIC and gone through that process. So, now it is time to um let Mass Strategic know officially uh that we will be withdrawing uh June 30th um to move our service over to GIC. Okay, think we can uh go to motion on this. I move the board vote to terminate the town's participation in the Massachusetts Strategic Health Group effective 11:59 11:59 p.m. on June 30, 2026.

Second motion made second. Any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor? I I Okay. Uh next AMA. Uh I am due. So, I will put my name out there um as one of the participants. Could I join you? I would love for you to join me. Perfect. That would be great. Be great. Um it's been a while. Yeah, same. Um everybody okay with that? Yep.

Okay. Uh we will work with Amber to figure out a date and location and get that announced. Okay. And returning to a degree back to the FY27 budget. Um we talked about this the budget itself being a standing agenda item so that we can discuss any updates and numbers. We can do that here as well. Um, but I also felt like it was as we've uh I think had a good amount of discussion so far on what the reduction looks like, we should start uh discussion about what an override would look like, what sorts of numbers uh we could potentially be floating, etc., etc. Um, so I'm going to let Evan kick the discussion off and then circle back. We have a few slides. Sure. Okay, this is just a recap slide. Currently, the budget sits at 1.428 million uh in deficit. It's kind of it's backwards though. Green is the deficit. I just realizing that now. Um just keep clicking. Yeah, oh, there's a delay. So, just give it a second. Okay. So, this is just forformational purposes for the board to consider um as you have further conversations on the budget. So, what I did and we will send out these slides so that you can look at them or in depth attach them to the minutes as well. Um, we did override calculations based on uh millions of dollars from 1 million to 10 million. Again, uh, not for any specific reason

other than our million-doll increments. And I can show you about what that looks like as we go up the scale. That's a good starting point.

Well, and I just want to make sure the public understands. I'm not saying that we're at a 10 million and I'm not saying we're at a 1 million or that we're doing anything. This is educational. Thank you. Yes, sir. Um, so to get a little more granular, I picked $5 million because it's in the middle of that scale. It's not, again, not tied to anything. Education. Um, so if you were to do a five-year a $5 million override and said, um, you know, we're going to spend that money out fairly equally over five years. We're not going to hit everybody at once with the full 5 million in year one. This is about what it looks like. Um, so in year one, your taxes would increase by about $146. Year two, it's 292. Year three is 438. Year five is 560 or year four is 560, sorry. And year five is 736. Um again that that each increment includes the uh amount before it. So it's not year two is an additional 292. The difference between uh year 1 and year two is that difference between 146 and 292. Okay.

So 146 I'm sorry I was just going to say 146 a year just Okay. By the end of year five you're paying an additional $730. That's if we Right. So, so the idea is you go bank, I want to make sure I'm explaining this correctly. So, if the board said we're going to we're going to request a $5 million override. If we took all of that money, $5 million, we increase taxes by $5 million in one year, that's an additional 736 for the average singlepayer tax bill. That's the impact. That's the impact. So that's above and beyond what what they're paying

the the increase that they would already have. So I think that's a really important thing to note with this slide is these this is the impact. This is in addition to your two and a half% right. So so what did the a what would the average I was going to ask what the average tax increase. Um um you want to say we were at 300 was our last average tax increase. Um so if it's three it would be the first year would be 460, right? 446. Right. I can I and I haven't done all of that math yet. This is in response to the initial question on top of the 2.5 increase. Correct.

That's right. So this would be again year one is if we spent 1 million out of that 5 million. They're all equal increments all the way down. That's about what it looks like. Okay. Um now you can go. Yeah. shot.

This chart's going to be too small for you to read. I have a I have a table on the other side on the next slide, but this shows um our existing debt in the town of Grafton. So, yelling yellow is what's already exempted debt, and we'll talk about what's in there. Um green is CPA debt. Um blue is existing sewer debt. And purple is um what we have for bonding that's inside of the tax rate, right? That's not exempt. Um, so this is what's living essentially um in your your current debt payment. Um, in 2030 is when our first bond for Grafton High School rolls off. That would net an a decrease in the average tax bill of $86.28. um 2031, another part of that GHS um bond, $99.55. And then you're now we're talking well outside of the scope of kind of what we're looking at here, but 2039 is when DPW would roll off. Um 2041 is when library and uh DPW2, which is a much smaller amount, but it is tied to that original project. It just was u a shorter bond anticip anticipatory note um until we went out and bonded for the whole library project. What's that little thing on the side there?

I don't know. That can't be good. I think that's your first chart held over there. Yeah, something's happening there. Okay. So again, this is the same slide I showed earlier with the you you you did an override for $5 million. You space that out over five years, except this denotes that and the fifth year would be the first year we're not paying for that GHS1 bond. So instead of it being the 736, you're at 6 5042. 5042. That that that's all it's showing. Okay. Next slide. Gotcha.

Thank god that is it. Um so um knowing this was on the agenda uh illustrative purposes to kind of give you a a thought of what that looks like for the average singlepayer uh tax increase. Um, and I do have full sheets from basically the the bottom of the appraisal list up to about 1.5 million that shows those impacts across all of that and what that does to the tax rate. Kind of too nuanced to put on a PowerPoint slide, but we do have all of that data. Um, yeah, that's all. We have a new bond picking up soon in George Hill Road, correct? We haven't we haven't bonded that. That hasn't hit the tax bills yet.

Correct. Hey, look who's with us. Joined by Emory. Nice.

Okay. um comments, questions, I guess feedback to what has been shared so far and and um yeah, let's just start there. I'll start. Um so uh I have uh heard some concern um or some questions on whether this board uh supports uh putting an override on the ballot. And I think that's an important probably the first question to sort of tackle. Um since we have the full board here um I'd like to just talk about that a little bit. I um looking at the projections and the impacts on the on the schools that we've looked at, the impacts on the town. Um I don't have any questions about whether we should be offering one, you know, putting one on the ballot. Um but other board members have may have very different perspectives on that. So, um, for me that's a pretty straightforward yes, we should, uh, give the voters the option, um, you know, to, uh, basically approve an override, um, to, uh, yeah, increase the amount of revenue that we have uh, to fund services um, on the town side, on the school side. Um, that that's pretty straightforward to me. Um, and you know, over the last two years, we've talked about this exhaustively, but we've used some budget tricks, best practices, I don't know what you call them, but uh to basically

bridge the significant funding gaps that we've had. Um, but I do feel like we've exhausted most, if not all of those, uh, lowhanging fruit, significant dollar amount type of techniques with the budget. Um, and so I don't think we're going to be able to do that this year or any of the following years. So for me it's um not so much a question of should we put it on the ballot, but more what does it look like, how many years and how much and what service uh priorities we have and and potential impacts are there. So those, you know, the sort of sketching out the framework of it is a slightly secondary conversation that I'm interested in talking about tonight. But um I just would love to sort of just talk about that first and um so that we can that this board can give the public um a pretty clear uh indication of of where the board stands with regards to putting an override on the ballot. So I guess

that seems like a good starting point. Um so I'll uh open it up to the other members for discussion again and I I think that's an important distinction. Um you know a we won't have whatever the number in years look like at this point and b um a vote to support putting this on the ballot doesn't necessarily mean that you support the override itself. It's it's a commitment to letting the residents choose. So, um, with that, open to other input. Well, I really didn't think we're going to be talking about this tonight because when we added this to the agenda, it was just a it was just supposed to be budget update. And if EPA had new information um or not, there was a placeholder there for us to discuss it. But then I see a good change to override discussion. Um, so we're waiting for the school, you know, we're waiting for an accurate budget from the school department. We don't have that yet. So to talk about an override, I think is premature. Um, I to Mark's point earlier point, I think they got some more work to do. And you know, if if they don't have enough funds, then they need to figure out what they can do to close that gap without going back to the taxpayer. The plan can't be to keep passing overrides. We are not an override dependent community. That's not true. We can live within our means. And we seem to be having the school department seems to be having a hard time doing that. So, they have some more work to do. And when that work is done, then I will take a position on whether I support putting

an override in front of the voters. But in my mind, we're not there yet. So, um, they need to figure out how they can close that gap so we don't have to keep going back and asking for more money. So when they come in here, when they have their budget, when they've gone through it and they have accurate numbers, we can have that conversation. In the meantime, I think the ball is in their court. It's not it's premature for us to make that decision. That's that's where I'm coming from. you know, they can get creative and figure out ways of closing that budget. And to Mark's point about the real world, you know, about how in how increases happen and how they don't happen is what's driving this. And they need to go back and they need to have conversations. There's a way so everybody can keep their job and they need to go back and have those conversations. We shouldn't have to lay people off and see other people get 6% raises. That's not fair. And it's not fair to ask us to go ask the taxpayers for more money when that's what's happening. And that's the truth. That's exactly what's happening here. So, they're spending money that the town doesn't have and they're coming back and asking us for more money. So they need to go figure that out on their own and then come back.

Mr. Elmo.

Uh yeah, I mean I I think I'm a little spent here. I said a little bit there earlier and it's all intended to be uh creative, constructive, and thoughtful. Um I do believe Matt, you are probably referring to me, but you know, I don't want to read into it. Last time I said that I was wrong, but if you're wondering how I feel about presenting the town with full transparency, I am actually for that. I said that uh weeks ago. I've said that many times in this chair and I've said it many times to people outside of this room that were cur that are curious about it. So the idea of um I I do agree agree a little bit with Craig that we're a little bit um sort of cart before the horse. We're a little premature on this. We're saying we're going to give an override for what did we are we done? Are we done? And so that's really for me. So ju just there's a few things here. The first is that as it comes down to whatever it may be, whatever form an override may be, it is highly likely that I would support putting it to the town to vote for. Period. Done. The end. How we get there is a little bit of a different discussion in my personal opinion and it's based on my personal experience and I think it's one of the reasons why I'm sitting here. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe because people wanted me to share that personal experience. And that personal experience comes back to whether we're spending money we don't have or have and all that. And I and I get it. It's just if you said right now you could not cut one single one more single dollar from the budget, that'd be great. But can you say that? Can you really say that? And I'm not talking about just the school budget.

I am a person who believes one town, one budget, multiple departments. So, and there is a lot of reasons why we need this money. And if we need it, I would be comfortable in asking the town for it. I'd be really comfortable if that shared reward also shared and that there was some shared sacrifice, too. And that's not an an unreasonable position to take. And in fact, I think it's extremely reasonable to say, would you consider cutting more out of your budget? I'm getting that right now. I just put up a thing in my meeting today with my team, stop spending money. I just said, you're not spending any more money, by the way, in a budget that's bigger than the Grafton Town budget, for the record. So, there's a lot to manage and people are disappointed. It's either that or I could just get fired and I prefer not that for that not to happen. And I don't even think it has to be an argument or because it feels like it's the same playbook and the same play is being run. It feels like last year like the same copy and paste emails, the same, oh, we're all or nothing, the same thing. And I don't understand the strategy. I thought it we could be a little bit more not this or that, but we could be a little bit more nuanced than that. And I hear like, nope, don't ask questions. This is what we got to do. It just must be done. And the problem is like I don't I don't just that doesn't doesn't sit right with me. And it doesn't mean that I won't ask the town for their vote. I would. It just means could you cut a dollar? Could you cut a thousand? Could you cut a hundred thousand? Could you cut a million? If you can't, fine. It's a fair question to ask. And for those that want me to not ask that question, sorry. I'm going to keep asking that question respectfully, of course. So, if you're wondering, Andy, where I stand on the override and

putting it to the town, yeah, I've already said this a number of times. I'm for asking the town what they think. I do think this is the kind of a decision that should be shared with more than five people. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Miss Holey. You're on mute.

Yeah, I I wasn't prepared to speak this evening. Um I'm on route. So, um if you're asking me, do I want to vote tonight to place an override on the ballot? Um, you know, I'm going to say I'm going to align with Mark, but I'm just here listening to the tail end.

Okay. Um, yeah, I'm in the same boat. Um, I'm I think it is critically important that we let the residents choose. Um, I'm I you know, I'm going to I'm going to disagree a bit on on some of the some of the ins and outs. um you know because I don't think it's as as black and white uh per se as as um you're you're kind of alluding to there Mark that you know

no we cannot say that we can't cut a million dollars but what we can say is if we need to cut an additional million dollars that that equals this many salaries you know and I that's that's the discussion that we're having right now it you know it's not without um without pain points and I you know we we went through this last year we cut what six and a half positions from the school side as well as you know another few hundred thousand in funding uh for supplies and and whatnot. Um we warned that those cuts would be deeper this year that that last year was you know we did enough to get by for another year and here we are the you know we're we're looking at potentially 18 cuts on the school side another five and a half on the municipal side. Um you know this is this is a scenario that we're in. Uh it's I if if we need you know we we cut we cut everything that wasn't people uh over the last few years and this is this is the the position that we find ourselves in now. Um I don't you know I I agree if uh you know part of the reduction budget stance is that we want we wish to go back to the unions and ask them to you know go for a colar freeze that that's certainly on the table but uh it's also not a sustainable solution that we you know we can't move forward with that forever. Um it doesn't it doesn't you know change the the drivers or or anything like that. Uh it you know if anything it it just kind of kicks the can and and buys us a little more time. Um you know and we keep every year we talk about different cost drivers in this scenario that are out of our control you know inflationary things health uh healthcare what have you. Um, and I'm not trying to get nationally political in this, but um, I think that uncertainty is is a reasonable assumption for, you know, the

the next three years anyways. um with how frequently tariffs are placed on you know other countries other goods and services uh adjustments up and down um you know this this type of volatility I think factors into how a municipal government runs and and you know and that we're beholden to these private contractors um you know to to their going rates and and have very little control over those things. So, um, you know, those are certainly discussions that we can have, but they don't fix the root problem. They don't they don't, you know, serve a long-term solution, nor does an override. Um, but, you know, this is this is a scenario that we're in. And and I I do disagree that that override dependency is not a thing. when you know the the town prioritized single family homes for a long time and when you don't have a broad tax base the the burden of running that town is going to fall on single family homes. It's there's really no way around it. So, um yeah, I'd love for us to be, you know, better with our spending, but I I think I think we're really good with that. I I think we we keep a really strong eye on that bottom line. Um, you know, I I don't think we would I know you did Evan did it for the sake of of ease, but you know, I doubt that annual increase would be the same year-over-year. you know, it's it's probably got some ups and downs um between the five, but um you know, it gives us a good starting point and um you know, I think it's it's an unfortunate situation that we find ourselves in and and it can be a combination of the two, but to me, the both of these possibilities need to be need to be fleshed out and they need to be done soon. Um you know, I did bad

math last week, but uh you know, Craig, you said we had five or so months to figure this out. we have town meeting and and the you know elections where it'll be on the ballot in in May. Um but we have to have this information buttoned up roughly by the beginning of April if we want to get this override on on either of those things. And it's now the third week of January. So realistically that's about two and a half months. That's that's half that timeline. And in my mind with both these scenarios, we still have a lot of work to do in terms of what we're going to figure out um and where we're going to go with it. And then to that, you know, to that point, I guess a a degree of outreach um you know, uh listening sessions, whatever it is we wish to do to help engage the public further and and educate them on the topic and these in these issues. So um that's why I don't I don't think this is premature. We have we have broad strokes of what those numbers are going to look like and they may dial in but they're not going to dial in 1.4 million that you know unless we go with the reduction budget and and that may be the way people choose to go but um to me we have to be working on these things in tandem they're equally important they're they're both going to be a solution that we put before the town and then it'll be on the residents to decide. One one thing Andy.

Sure.

So this whole discussion just think about is all reactive. We're reacting right to having not enough money to fund everything. We we've gone to the town twice and asked them for more money and they've given more money, right? What what have we done proactively, strategically to avoid putting ourselves in the same position? So we're not here, you know, arguing about what we're going to do. What have we done proactively to to do that with the school committee, with the school department, sit in a room and say, "How do we keep this from continuing to happen? How do we stop spending more money than we have? We know what the state gives us. We know it's not enough, but that's what they give us. We know what our tax, you know, increase will we'll do every year. We know how many staff we have, right, and that we need. Why do we keep putting ourselves in this position over and over and over again without some kind of a plan to avoid doing it? Wouldn't that be a lot more proactive and positive thing to work on than sitting here and figuring out how we're going to pull more money out of the taxpayers because we're spending too much because that's what we're doing. Mr. Chair,

Mr. Alma, uh the part about uh the amount of time that we have uh it does I I think I agree with your math on the amount of time that we have to do this and the amount of time that we want to give Evan to get this all prepared. But I do think that we're doing things right like it's not like we haven't done anything. Budgets are being scrutinized. School committee is working with with Jay. We're talking about it. We're going through it whether we agree, disagree, whatever. So this this has been happening since early since the beginning of the year, right? Some hints of it at the end of last year. So we're doing that, right? So when you say that, I just want to make sure at least while maybe we don't have six months, five months, we have two and a half months. We're doing the work.

Cool. Yeah. Okay. Just want to make sure because I think that's where we I heard that criticism from last year and I feel like um we've addressed that by getting on it early, working on it, working through it. Agreed, disagree, like it, don't like it, whatever it is, the work is being done. Okay. Agreed. And I think we've been a little more direct with our feedback this year, too, which has helped the process. And but yes, the the work is being done. And yeah, here we are, Mr. Ros.

Um, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think I think the work is being done. Um, I asked to make sure that this was an override discussion as well as budget discussion. Um, I'm going to keep pushing. So, if it seems like I'm pushing the board, I am. And I'm going to keep pressure on because I think it's it's important the timing that there's a lot of uncertainty that we're dealing with. And that's really challenging for any board to sort of navigate through to come to a good decision that we all feel comfortable with. Um, and so I think we just need to we need to keep at it and we need to keep going aggressively. Um, I think what I heard tonight in in the straw poll was we had four board members that, you know, we're not talking about how much or how long the override might look like, but but we have four board members that are on board with the idea of putting it before the voters. Um, so we'll play out those discussions about how much and and how long and all that stuff over time. Um, those are nuanced questions. Um, and I do think that they need some additional discussion, but uh, I don't want to be afraid about talking about those topics um, in the meantime as this information plays out because I do see that finishing the budget um, and making decisions on an override to put before the voters are two different processes and they're not they're not wholly dependent on each other. We don't need a finalized budget from the school to make a decision about the override. I just don't I I don't really understand why we why we would wait to have that discussion. their budget may swing, I don't know, couple hundred grand here, you know, but especially if we're talking about a longer term override, that doesn't it's not going to really matter longer term in, you know, in five years, the town administrator and the superintendent are going to be reacting each year to whatever they're presented

with, making decisions about how they're going to balance the budget um based on whatever le levy this board agrees that we're going to uh present the voters with with the the opportunity to vote for. So they're going to have to make that work over time. Um and uh so I just want to be a little bit careful about waiting too long for the school budget because they may not finish for another month. And uh I don't want to wait that long to to start having these discussions about because I feel like I could already have a discussion about how long um you know one three five each sevenyear override. I could have that discussion tonight very easily. So, I don't want to wait on those things. Um, but I do appreciate that that board members need more information and would like to, you know, continue getting that feed of information in as we have these discussions. Um, I I want to just uh I feel like I I need to address a couple of things that that were said and and uh Mark, I I wasn't singling you out in terms of um like public commentary that I've noticed about this board's support for an override or not. It really was just it was about the board as a whole. Um, but I think we've we've sort of answered that question tonight with, you know, we we have the votes that we need to put it on the on the ballot. Um, it's just more a matter of teasing out those conversations and making sure that we get the numbers right. Um but uh the the commentary about um particularly on the school side, you know, does it have to be layoffs or could it be maybe we give everybody a little less, right? In the corporate world, that works for some businesses, but anybody that works with represented labor, if you're dealing with unions, we would have to go back and renegotiate contracts. Um, and

that is just not something that ever happened with the teachers union. And I don't think it's fair to ask to renegotiate something that we've already committed to. Um, and uh, so, you know, I've dug into this a little bit, looking at where Grafton is relative to other communities. Um, my wife happens to be on school committee, so she sent me some uh slides comparing Grafton's teacher salary bands um directly to other towns in the area with similar populations, we're on the bottom in many of the categories. And so to lose ground, more ground by paying people less over the coming years so that we uh can uh fund the gap, the the revenue gap that we have. That's just not a I just don't think the renegotiation is going to be a a feasible approach. And I and I think it's it that's really shortterm thinking to to deal with well we need to look at just this this year because once you've lost ground you you really can never feasibly make it back up because it it just doesn't work that way. So So I I don't I don't think for the schools that's going to be a real feasible approach. Um, I think taking that approach with trying to reduce the amount of because we're already on the lowest end of the pay scale, um, there's going to have some pretty, you know, potentially serious long-term consequences to the quality of the teachers we're going to get in the school system if we're not competitive. And that and that's, you know, so I have some real concerns about that that approach. Um

on the issue of spending money we don't have I just have um you know this this board uh approved a contract for the fire chief which gave him a pretty big bump in one year well above and beyond the two and a half%. The reason we did that was because he deserves it and we we we recognize that people who work for Grafton in any capacity should be paid market rate and I think that's true for teachers too. So um I I don't know. Um I think we're already looking at some nuance mark you know we were exploring some things with CPA tonight. Um I'm open to all options in terms of working through how we navigate this this issue. Um I think you know a lot of things are being discussed and having having been discussed already. Um but we've got to make some decisions as a board and we've got to uh kind of bring that all together pretty quickly. Um, we ended up with a lot of, you know, we we had some nuance discussions with a lot of options and asks and and a fair amount of back and forth last year. Um, and, you know, that we sort of got there. Um, but we ended up having, you know, reductions in the schools and we had a $600,000 draw from stabilization. Neither of those are are great. I don't want to do that this year. We we I just I would support that. So, I think we, you know, we really need to um get through all of the questions. We need to make a decision as a board as as far as what the long-term vision looks like. Um and we need to just move forward with it so that we have some uh some time to message this and to educate

the public and uh and all that. So, um, Craig, as far as as as far as, you know, what have we done, um, to sort of position ourselves differently? You've been on the board for lots of years, you know, while an override, what would your answer to the question be? I mean, you were on the board. You've been on the board. So, like, I get that. I get that question, but And I know you're working on things like science park and and other things like but those are things that take a yeah they take a really long time to to happen and you know that so

to I feel like the quality of that part of the discussion is well what can we do this year to position ourselves we we can't there's nothing we could do right now but I'm totally willing to have discussions about what is you know what do we need to focus more but but those discussions have already been had like every time the the override discussion you know it's it's we got to bring in more businesses and figure out different revenue sources and

that's really not my expertise and that's one of the things that I really appreciate having you on the board for is because you can bring developers in and you have that sort of uh skill set um to negotiate and to see that kind of potential um I'm totally in support of it. Um, so let's go like let's let's create that plan to position the town different, but that's that we're not going to do that in the next 3 months. I mean, that's that's my problem with that is I I agree with you. I don't want to do overrides. It's it's not my, you know, it's a tough thing to go and ask people to raise their own taxes, you know. Um, but here we are. I I'm not in support of, you know, I looking at the the impacts to the schools and the town just this year and if you play that out over the coming years, I I don't think the live within your means strategy is at all a feasible long-term strategy. So, do we need the the full amount for uh everything that the schools in the town have asked for for the next five years? I don't know. But but let's have that discussion. Um but I'm definitely not in support of just saying we have to stick with the two and a half levy limit um forever. I I I just I'm really opposed to that idea. So well, we've passed two. I was involved with the first one and that was after many years of pulling it every lever possible. Mhm.

Um, and back then, well, I forget, we had a meeting in the new high school in the mezzanine in the cafeteria with the the school department and it was a difficult discussion. At the end of the day, we finally agreed that we needed to do it. Um, I was myself and I was hard on everybody in the room to make sure that we were we really needed to do this and that there was no other way to do it to the point where, you know, I had friends on the school committee and they were like, "What's the matter with Craig?" And the board members were like, "Nothing. That's just who he is." And he speaks for the people that are outside. We we're all, you know, in this room singing kumbaya, saying this is a good thing. and he, you know, is speaking his mind and he was more representing the people outside this room who maybe don't want it or don't understand it. Right? So, I just I when I look at it, I look at it factually and you know, my experience both with unions and with running businesses says when when when we negotiate a contract, we have to make sure that we can pay for that contract. So, when we hand out a 6% raise to 500 teachers or however many he is, and I'm not blaming the teachers, they negotiated, I'm sure, in good faith. They did they did what they, you know, they did a good job for their for their representatives and for the teachers. But when we sign a deal that we know we can't pay for, that's not fair. And you know, and for that gentleman that that the uh the the the gent the young guy who was works for the school department who was worried about keeping his job and did a fantastic job speaking to us and I totally get that and I feel for him because I want to see him stay too. But I can't help but say if we had given

a 3% raise and it wasn't a $2 million increase, it was a million dollar increase. and a 3% raise is pretty good. We may we wouldn't be having this discussion, but that's not what's going on. And I hate to bring it up, but we got to talk about it, right? When I see that number, $2 million in in in school department salary increases. It's not just the teachers, it's everybody. And I'm not saying, you know, everybody likes to get a raise. But if we're doing it blindly or we're doing it without knowing how much money we have to spend and I don't know all the incidents. This is why I want to ask the school department like what's the strategy going in like when you go and you sit right and you decide what you're able to to give for increases for staff like how does that all work? How are people going to feel when we we see we're giving out I mean that's a big raise and then we're asking people for more money. Do you think that's I mean that's a fair discussion to have and you can bring up the points that our teachers are paid less than the majority of the state. We can you know that's a good point. We can have that discussion but at the end of the day that's what's driving this and that I guess if we do put it on the residents will decide whether it's fair.

Yeah. Right. But that's my issue with it because I think it's avoidable and that's why I wanted to have yeah we you know when I was talking about what do we do from having this happen again but what have we done are we going into negotiations with a not not to exceed number and what we can do without having to go through this torturous process you know because this is not a lot of fun for anybody you know are we having those discussions I I don't know. I wasn't here when when when that was going on. So, um to

Mr. Chair, just before you move on too far, uh Amarice would like to speak, but she's having trouble getting the raise hand function to work. Oh, okay. Yep. Miss Bley.

Yeah. I'll just uh just a couple of things. Um, so I am the person in the room that wants firmer numbers and that is not just to delay things similar to last year or to, you know, I I'm I'm aware that it they might not be, you know, 100% um etched in stone, let's say, by, you know, the end of February, the beginning of March. However, they need to be firmer than what they are right now. And you even just said it, Matt. You said something, you know, along the lines of, you know, do we really know? Is it is that exactly what the school needs and ex is that exactly what the town needs? Will it it change? I mean, for me, those questions aren't sitting well or the answer to that question right now being yeah, they might change. We're not really sure. That's not sitting well with all the people that are reaching out to me. Um and and additionally the other I'm coming at this from the angle of if and when an override is put to the the voters and to the ballot. Um the assumption would be that we have all determined that yes in fact we really need this and we would like it to pass. Right. So in my opinion being somewhat trying to rush this process so that you know we don't have exactly the numbers but we think it might be this we think it might be that it's just not the right optics in my opinion. I want them to be firmer to to Craig's point or maybe Matt you made this point as well like here we are back in the same position. What has been done? What has been looked at creatively? I brought things to Jay's attention last year. I heard that, you know, a couple of weeks ago that no yeah, we haven't done that yet or we we'll look into that. Um, you know, on the town end, what's going on creatively over there? I'm not sure. I haven't really heard anything new and exciting. And and actually just a question to um Evan, you don't have to answer this this evening at all, but I meant to ask it last time with the things I asked Jay to get back to me on. I would like to see similar how he did it, like, you know,

what are our raises looking like kind of across the board over the last year or two? um just to give us some ideas like in terms of percentages. Um so again my my my push back and wanting to have decent numbers is to help this actually go through. Right? So, and that if maybe it's only a difference of $100,000 or $200,000, but that means a lot to me. And I will tell you that I again, we all hear from different people, but I am not hearing from anyone who is is feeling like they want to to have this happen. And so, my charge then is to try to explain to them where we're at, how we got here, what we're doing about it, so on and so forth. and not to have to say, well, it's we think it's like 1484, but it could be down to 12. It could be this, it could be that. It's we just have to, in my opinion, make it firmer before I'm going to say like a full ra. Yes. And I that'll be it. Thanks,

Mr. Chair. Just to that point, I we are going to drill drill down on all these numbers. We we will have more firm numbers as as the process goes along, but I understand that you're not I mean we have but not needed

you know I I just I don't I'm in a similar position where I I think these these two things can happen on a parallel path. We can continue to work on what the reduction budget looks like. We can continue to work on what an override would look like. We have to have those them all dialed in by that point. Um you know could be splitting hairs. I don't think it's accurate to say that we haven't heard from anybody that, you know, would be in favor of an override because there are seven emails sitting in our correspondence uh you know in our inboxes from from residents who have reached out expressing uh that they would like to see an override on the ballot and and that may not compare to the number of people that have spoken to us individually, but um you know factually I think that conversation has begun. Um, you know, and just getting back to the point about the schools and negotiations and whatnot, I think arguably while the b their budget may have been close this this fiscal year, you know, with uh $2 million worth of increases, um, you know, I I don't I don't think it's necessarily accurate to to point to that and say that that is that's what's driving it here. We could I to in my opinion we could easily point to um the three students this the the three out of district students that were added that we have no control over that drove that budget roughly 1.2 million uh between tuition and transportation costs. You know that's not something that the school could have anticipated or um you know it's it's definitely a tough thing to uh budget around. But you know when when we're talking about 1.4 four uh is our current delta and 1.2 of that we can point to as as you know three unexpected students in the district that we have to you know fund. Um I I just I think it frames that conversation a little bit differently. So Mr. Almo you still

Yeah, just a couple things. Matt, I agree with you on the union negotiations. I'm not an expert there and I I'm not trying to reopen um a negotiation that we're not allowed to legally or any other any other way. Um um as much as I think what I'm hearing tonight from everyone I've heard this before is an attempt to try to be creative and innovative and think through the possibilities because Amarie I'm I'm kind of like I she's she articulated where I'm at a little bit on this and that is to say yeah you want to be able to sell it a little bit. you want to be able to convince people this is the right thing or if you're not for it you can say this is on the ballot and I'm not for it and here's why. Um, so that's the first thing is yeah, if there's a way to do that, we should consider doing that. Matt, if we can't do that, then okay, fair. Stand corrected. I'm just asking and exploring the possibility. The other thing I need to say though is is that when we talk about this, if we want to win this discussion, if we want to win this argument, I I got a funny thing about these are cuts. How much money did we spend in 2025? Wait, you asking me the question?

What was the budget a year ago? Three million. What was the budget the year after? It it goes up by the almost the same amount. Yeah. Every did every department get more money? Um, generally, yeah. So the thing I'd say, Matt, and I hear this a lot, and this is it, whether it's something that everybody believes or it's a tactic. To say that these are cuts is profoundly misleading. It's just spending less more money. So when you say we spent more money, how much did we spend in the prior year? Did you say it again? You said 3 million, but it wasn't 3 million. Three million less than we're spending now. Just so call it 82, not this one. The one before

$82 million. And the one before, the one after that, then the next year, the one that we got, we did the bags for and we cut some things, some other areas. How much money did the schools get? Did they get less or more money the prior year? More. Okay. So, that's all I'm saying, Matt, is like each year that will get more money. And to call it a cut, it is a it is it's a reduction because I laid off two people, right, for the same amount of money because costs go up. Mark when you do that though, but people are hearing sweeping Can we Can we let sweeping cuts?

Yeah. It's 18 positions to maintain level services and and I I I got to tell you, I don't think our staff are going to love hearing things like this is how it is in the real world and that things aren't different. But they are. We have to we have to navigate this with these people. I have to tell in the next week I got to tell five and a half people that they're going to lose their jobs. I don't have anywhere else to go. And I know that I don't know what you're looking for from me to say I've made all the cuts I can make. I I've done that over and over and over again. I don't have anywhere else to go but people and these are real people. And so I I I think that, you know, I I understand what you're saying and I think it's it's unfortunate that we need to continue to go back to the well. And if you don't go back to the well and ask the taxpayers, I'm going to make the budget work. That's what I do. That's my job. I don't have a dog in that fight. But to say it as though these aren't real people. These are eight these are 14 people on the school side, five and a half people on our side. And we're about as lean as we can get. I'm the maintenance director now. I'm the IT director now.

Yeah. I I put RAM in somebody's computer last week to save money. That's what we're doing. Yeah. Thank you. And and we're not and I'm not I'm not attacking you, Mark. I don't But Evan, you can't say that I don't see it as real people. Please don't say that. That for for whatever it's worth. And I don't talk like this with you. That's just not cool. That's not how I see it. I see them as real people. And some of them are probably my friends for all I know. Like there are there are a few. Yeah. And I don't So I don't mean it that way, right? I mean in my experience,

right? This is al they're all real worlds. They're all real people. I mean, I've been laid off twice and it really hurts. And if you can believe it, the the mo my motivation is to never see that happen to someone. That's my motivation, right? Because I know what it did to me. Yeah. And I was able to kind of absorb it and manage my way through it and I'm okay, right? As do a lot of people. But just some of the some of the I don't know. It just feels like fair enough. Thank you for the clarification. But some of the tactics are like you don't have to. You just let's just try to get it as tight as we can and ask the town for the money that we need instead of I don't know just it just

my argument would be like the tactics maybe. And so and I'm not saying you no and I'm not really saying anybody. I just hear it. And so I'm not trying to I'm not trying to single anybody out, but you hear it, right? And it's like, well, wait a second. We spend more money. So we do. Yep.

So is it enough? Okay, maybe not. Okay, that's fair. So let's find a way to make it work. And that's it. And as tight as we can get it is what I would hope for because then we get to that point. We did the best we could. We were all super honest and brutally considerate with one. Brutally honest and very considerate and thoughtful about it. We need more money. Can you please vote for this? That's my position. Same as it was before. Okay. I don't feel like we've on this board have been overly catastrophizing things. So maybe you're hearing things sort of uh from other people.

I feel this board has been reasonable.

I've been pretty careful to not do that because I feel like we need to maintain our credibility. Um but I'm definitely not going to shy away from uh talking about 23 position cuts. Um, and the fact that, you know, 18 positions in the school, that's that's not level service. Yeah, they're getting more money than they did last year, but that doesn't mean that uh they're able to provide the same services with 18 people less. So, yep, it's more money, but it's not as much as they need to fill the classrooms with the talent and uh the number of teachers that they need to be able to provide the same quality of education that they did this year. So, um, that's all I'm saying.

Yeah. And I'm I agree with that. That's all I'm saying. I was trying to say, could we just could everybody take a little haircut? Because if they could I just don't we can't really Could that change things? Almost all of them are represented by by unions. So, I don't think that's a possible thing.

That's not possible. So, just to that point, because that's kind of been 30 years of my life. um you can do it. Um it's not a pleasurable conversation to have, but I think the you know I and it's not our job to do that, right? It's not our responsibility to do that. But I think but I think the you know the bargaining groups have have some skin in the game too because if if we don't get an override, you know, 14 of their people are going to get laid off or whatever, right? So, so, so they they're going to have some blood on their hands, too, because they could have a choice, right? Are they going to eat their young, which unions tend to do, or are they going to are they going to say, "You know what? We want to see everybody keep working, so we're going to make some concessions and and and take one for the team, right? And keep keep all the stuff like that that young man that was here last week, right? Again, I want to see him keep his job." So, but that's a conversation to me. That's a lever that we need to pull at least at least broach the subject. And if the union says, "No, we're not doing that.

When the people get laid off, they can go to the union and let them find them a job." You know, because they're going to have some responsibility in this thing, too. Said difficult things to do. I've been down that road many times. Um, but I think we should I think the conversation for me should should be had. And if the answer is no, then it's no. Not looking to delay anything either, Matt. Andy. Yep. Want to move this as fast as possible, too? Yep.

Okay. Well, well, I guess I'll just say this. Um maybe I'm not sure what the timing on the school side is, but I don't think that their numbers are going to go up or down that much. Um so maybe this board could proceed on the basis that we decide everything else and as soon as we finalize the numbers, we can plug in the next fiscal year and just be ready to go. you know, that might be a an approach that we we could take because I I want board members to get their questions and concerns addressed and answered. And um but I don't want to get I don't want to hold up conversations um you know, all the conversations until we finalize the the school budget for this year. That that just doesn't make sense to me. Um so that's where I'm at.

Yeah,

I'm not going to lie. Uh, I also wish it wasn't all sitting in our lap. Um, no, realistically, you know, we're we're here and we're holding the bag and we're arguing about the budget and that is to a degree our responsibility. Um, but you know, I'd love to come together and and set a fire under the some of the seats at the state level. uh you know in in terms of getting us more funding when when it's been uh minimal increases and and things like that. You know, I I I don't enjoy that we're the ones on the hook for this. Uh whereas the people above us aren't. You know, they they seem to be able to to skate by in this conversation. So,

no, you're right, Andy. They're underfunding us. But we know that it's not an unknown. It's not like one year they given us a million and then they cut it to 100,000. we know would be nice though. So we have to plan accordingly.

I agree with that. And maybe one idea um would be to partner with the school department to have discussions about their next contract and say, you know, as we look forward to an over, I'd say, you know, let's look at the numbers together so that they have that idea for the next contract negotiation because that's, you know, they they do have the biggest contracts in the town. So, um I' I'd love to see some partnership with with the school department to say, you know, okay, we're considering an override. Like, let's think about your next contract. Let's talk about it. 100%.

To me, that, you know, that that's a a more productive conversation than saying, you know, going back and and second-guessing contracts that have already been done. Um, yeah, you could in theory renegotiate a teacher contract, but I'd be shocked if you could find one that's actually been done that way. Um, well, that's what I was talking about early about being proactive and trying to come up with a strategic plan for these things rather than us here reactive saying, "Oh crap, we don't have enough money right now. What do we got to do? Oh, we got to do this." Right? Sure.

So, I agree 100%. We should always have those conversations and and you know give some guidance you know through through Evan really because he's the numbers guy. He's the guy unless Mark asked me stuff off the cuff like that again. Sorry. My apologies sir. No kidding. So it feels it was just a private meeting just the four four or five of us here tonight. Feels nice that we've gotten back into a little more agreeable spot. It's only 10 o'clock so and and it is getting late. I want to I'm just curious though, Mr. Chair. There's some people that want to ask questions. Do you mind if I ask hear what those are?

That's what I was going to get is I think I think uh this is a a decent place for us to pause the discussion uh as a as a board. We can take a couple uh public comments questions. Colleen had her hand up first if if you want to and then John you can Mr. Trish know you have two hands on and then we'll deal with Zoom.

Hi, keep it quick. Colleen Roy, 53 Elwood Street. I heard a lot of great discussion from everyone tonight, but I didn't get a good feed on where the board is sitting. Is it 4 to one? Is it 3 to2? Is it 3 to2 in the other way as to whether you're going to ask for an override or not? And when we're talking about being proactive, wouldn't it be proactive of the board tonight to vote yes or no on an override so that at the next meeting you guys can be prepared on how many years, what kind of number? So you're you're proactively going in the direction of what you need versus having this conversation of should we or shouldn't we again. Now you'll be moving forward one way or not. Um but I think tonight seems like tonight you have the full board. Everybody's been weighing in. Yes or no seems like a pretty easy um ask of the board tonight. Thank you

to that I guess comment question. I I had us at 4 to one currently tonight. in favor of uh putting this on out to vote out to the resident vote on the ballot at town meeting. Um are we Does that sound right? Make motion. Do we need one?

Yeah. If I'm the one, if you're looking at me for the one um I see you looking out your corner. I just listen. For me, I need to do my due diligence and I want to see when the school committee comes back. I want to see what those numbers are. Matt, I hear your point about these can run concurrent. Um, I'm not I'm not going to put myself out there when I'm I'm uncomfortable with it until I I see harder numbers and then I'll re-evaluate it and give you my maybe I'll change my mind. That's why I said as of this point tonight, you know, like because because I do understand that you are open to future information. I was thinking that I was the one. So I'm I'm not ready.

Okay. You are the one. Amarie,

no. Craig was Mark had indicated that regard again correct me if I'm wrong that um he was in favor of making sure the residents had the choice one way or another and then I believe you said that you were in the same boat as Mark. So that's why I took that as a 4 to one endorsement. I don't know. Um I have mixed feelings about whether we need to move on that tonight. you know, to me it's either way it's it's a promise um you know, or a notion of our intent. Um it's on us for to follow through with that. So, um anyways, that's where I stand. I quickly reviewed the information that I guess you sent to Mary and they responded u an email about CPA

and it looked like but it's not terribly informative and it's terri not on point on a lot of things but it looks like possibly depending on because it's sending you to other Mass General laws to be able to change either the search charge amount or to change the exemption. So without being able to follow those lines, it's hard to know which you can or cannot do.

I did email Stuart Sagenol, who's the uh the director for the community preservation coalition, who assists towns with CPA questions. And hopefully I'll be able to talk to him tomorrow and have some answers uh at least initial discussion of of what is possible and what is not. Um and then back to the tax situation or the um what's the best way or what will be a way because I reviewed the materials that you provided here and there are a lot of budget lines that I don't understand to be able to say what is that how many people does that include so that I mean I'm one person I would think a lot of people might have a lot of questions because a lot of times it's like a big number 100 grand 200 grand what is that going for what's the best way so that you don't have 500 people calling you are will there be meetings where like you ask the selectman whatever to address that

yeah I we'll get into that further at the fincom level however if you go on to clear gov you can drill down on each of those lines and probably 85 well 80% of them have an explanation in there we've been building over time and over time trying to clarify those lines, what each and every line is. Um, we'll also um kind of waiting for finality on some things, but as we move stuff around, we also will create that document as part of our budget book and push that out both as a PDF and as a as a link

because some departments, I mean, I'm not going to name departments, but some departments I know that what staff's there. Yes. But it and and looking at the numbers, it's like that can't be for that person's salary. I know that's not what they're making, but it says assistance or something like that. So that assistance must encompass a whole lot more than somebody that's sitting at a desk. Yeah. A lot of our lines take money from different pots, right? So like just for example, Paul Canoyer, if you look at the budget, he makes, you know, whatever $40,000, but that's because the sewer enterprise fund also contributes to part of that budget. So parts of his salary live other places. Um, some of that is explained very well. Some of it is still being

worked on. Um, did I answer your question? Okay. And then another thing is I I'm not a depression baby, but my parents were.

So, I grew up with the understanding of doing without and I've learned that lesson and I've done without and I work in a job where I have to do without because I don't make a lot of money and I'll full disclosure I work for the schools and we fought real hard. I work on a para and we fought real hard for our pay increase and I make $26 an hour and I can't live on that and so I'm using my retirement to live and my one bill for my well two heating bills normally $200 a month when it's cold have been $400 the last two months. That's your override just in two months and I still have three or four more months of winter to go. The problem is I can pull money from my retirement. I'll be sorry when I'm 80 if I lived that long and there's nothing there, but I can do it. There may there are other people that cannot do that. And I think that's what people need to keep focus are the people that have nowhere else to get the money to pay the increase for the override. Whether you create an exemption, you create something. That's something else I saw and I don't know. I don't think I even realized this. There is there are exemptions for CPA over 60 and low income. I don't know if anybody's ever availor somebody in the town or if you have to go through the state to but there's you can if if you do not have enough income you can and you're all of it 100% is exempt. So there are ways to help people that are lower income. Um so again that's again a resource that to to be fair to everybody in town so that if they can't afford it there are ways and I don't know who needs to know in town so that people understand they're like the senior center you know

to to have somebody come and talk to them um from CPA. I'm sure they would. Um Stuart came and talk to us. Okay. So, excellent. I I took all that down. So, thank you. Yep. Come on up.

Hello, Bob Carroll, 72 East. Um I sit and watch this and um it kind of lines up too with um one of the things I had to do today um which was my um annual conflict of interest training for the municipality. So in my line of work I start with kind of like foundational questions and I guess I got to ask it. Um, does anyone on the board have immediate family that work for the schools where they may be conflicted? And no, not me. I have a family member who works in the schools.

Okay. And so from the um this is from the training and it actually states a municipal employee may not participate in any particular matter in which he or a member of his immediate family parents children siblings spouse spouse's parents children and siblings have a financial interest. I'm skipping to the next sentence. Participation includes discussing as well as voting on a matter and delegating a matter to somebody else. So kind of calling that out

exclusively about the schools though. I'm not negotiating school contracts. I'm not negotiating teacher contracts, anything like that. This is a town matter. This is an overall town matter. I would I would not any particular matter any those but I'm I'm not excluded from an override discussion simply because I have somebody who works in the school system. But you the the law further goes and says even the um optics and the appearance of impropriy and I guess I could argue that right because it it it doesn't come off very well if if you're if we we're saying your spouse or whatever works for the schools and you're lobbying and basically pushing an agenda to have an override and get more money for the schools. I'm sorry. I haven't pushed any agenda tonight. I've been very factual.

Well, whatever. I'll I'll leave it to the board, Carol. But thank you. Okay. Two hands on Zoom. Yeah, sure. So, wait a before we get to the Zoom. I mean, I didn't know your wife worked for the school, but you've been advocating for an override this whole time. So why why wouldn't you recuse yourself from this conversation, Andy? I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I have a right to discuss an override. I'm a resident here. Yeah, you're a resident, but you're you're not a resident now. You're sitting as the chair of the board of selectment and you're and you're talking about an override

that affects the town. It does not affect just the school system. If this was specifically for the school system, it would be an issue. This is a townwide issue. Well, it includes the school system and it right now it is specifically about the school system. It is not. Well, we've we talked about all night, but it does include the school department. It does include it is not exclusively the school department. So, you don't think you have an ethical responsibility to step down for a conversation about passing an override to fund one of which the schools, which you have a family member that works there. I just find that I would have stepped down.

Did she work there last year, too? I would have stepped down last year. just for the perception of you know I have family member that works at the school. So hey I'm it's your own decision but I don't discuss it with town council and ethics to make sure that this is a viable conversation but to me it's a it's 101 I strongly this is not a direct interaction schools it does not benefit the schools directly like it is it is a townwide issue. you do what you think is right, but I I would have stepped out a long time ago if it was me.

I don't think you would have, you know, because we've discussed zoning issues at town meeting uh about businesses and, you know, and commercial uh properties that then were allowed to or were proposed to allowed to have uh rentals up top and you got up and you spoke and you had much to say about that where without mentioning the fact that that is exactly what happens at two graft in common. You have a business on the first floor. you have rentals above it. That wasn't disclosed. Like that's a direct onetoone right there. What's your point about that? I don't understand what you're saying. Hang on. I would say no. Um when he when Craig stood up, he was not on the board on the select board. Certainly he was not the chair of the select board. He was not on the planning board. He was on note board. He was standing up as a a citizen.

Yeah. We when we talk about the old fire station, I recuse myself. I did it when I was on on um on um EDC um when they were trying to some people in the neighbor were trying to push an agenda. I even recused myself when you were doing a common victual's license cuz you had a list of aundred companies and my wife was one of them. Our business was one of them. That's a direct thing. Well, yeah. For a $25 common vicular license, but we'll get to the bottom. You do what you want to do. I'm just saying I just Mr. Kusher.

Bad decision. Oh, hi. Uh, Dan Kusher, 79 Keith Hill Road. Um, I, uh, just want to make two quick points. One was it, it sounds like there is some disagreement among board members about what exactly the phrase level services means. Um, I I mean, I could give my opinion on it. I don't feel like that would clear things up. I so I would just suggest that you ask the superintendent to present the slider or two um and just clear up what what it is that he and the school committee are referring to when they talk about level services. Um, when when I've talked about this, when I've used the the cut word, uh, I try to be very careful to say cuts to services, um, and try to be clear that, you know, uh, the dollar amount might go up, but if class sizes go up, that's a reduction in the quality of the services we're getting, that kind of thing. Um, and the so the other point I wanted to make was um with the with regard to needing everything tightened up and getting finalized numbers from the the school committee. Uh the 2020 override was meant to last 5 years. Uh it ended up lasting a sixth year by spending down some circuit breaker money and then a seventh year by making a few cuts that the superintendent said he could live with, plus some uh stabilization spending uh and other um creative ideas uh from uh from Evan and from uh some additional revenue that was generated um on the school side. And uh when you when you think about that big picture of an override that's meant to

last 5 years and how things can shift by uh like high six figure amounts from one year to the next, uh looking to shave off another 100,000 somewhere in this year's budget is I mean if we can do it and still provide the same level of services, we absolutely should. We shouldn't be spending money. we don't need to, but it shouldn't be something that we need to wait on in order to make a decision about whether to move forward with an override. And I think we shouldn't need to wait on that to decide the number for the override because we know in those later years of it, it'll be uh it's not something we can predict with that amount of precision anyway. And uh just like the um the town and and schools did uh in this uh the 2020 override and got the most out of those last few years and stretched it longer than expected, I would expect that similar efforts will be put in uh on the tail end of uh another override. Thank you.

Thank you, Dan. I'm next. Okay.

Am I on? Yep. We can hear.

Oh, hey guys. Ed Prisby, 25 Daniel Drive. Uh, this isn't why I logged on, but Craig, man, that was rich. Like you just said that the Upton Street development was going to destroy the common and you have a business on the common. You just participated in a discussion about CPA that has given millions of dollars including these big bronze arches right across the street from your business that obviously helps you out. So Andy's having a discussion about a general matter that doesn't impact his family in any immediate way according to section 19. no matter what anybody wants to chat GPT in the room. Okay, but look, my other comment here is this was a bad night tonight for the select board. I mean, just the sheer lack of depth in the discussion that really should have been 3, four, 5 years in the making was really glaring tonight. And you guys missed it on three beats. So, I'll give you the first one. The first one was the single best public comment I've ever heard in my entire life was right at the beginning where a woman and I can't remember her name asked you guys about how we got into the spot that we did concerning health insurance. And she was giving you some concrete examples about what drives health insurance costs. And as if you guys were paying attention, if maybe Mark had met that meeting, he would have known that one of the cost drivers was health insurance and addressing things like deductibles and the splits that are negotiated in the contracts would be important. As Matt pointed out, it's too late to do that. And no one really addressed that over the course of the past four or five years because Grafton operates in silos, right? It's the schools on one side and the town on the other. And even amongst the town, it's one department versus another department and what other guy is getting. So you miss that part. And it's not something that you could just pick up once there's an override and it comes up and we're

out of levy capacity. And I never heard the term levy capacity tonight. It's as though it doesn't exist. It's like we're dealing with like one year's budget and that's it. We got to make people live within their means for one year and it goes away. That's not how it works. What you're doing with an override is you're raising the levy capacity so you can continue to fund the programs and services that you already have. And the second beat that we missed was I mean Amber Ree saying, "Well, I haven't heard from anybody who would support this." And and frankly, I was motivated to call in just to get it on the record to say, "Hey, here I am. You've officially heard from somebody who supports this or would support it in concept. Nobody in town has an unlimited amount of money to give to town on services. Yeah, I want to keep as much money as I can in my pocket. At the same time, however, if you understand that costs are increasing faster than our funding is, you understand what a structural deficit is, you understand what it is to be override dependent. And the third beat that you missed was Craig calling that project, that housing project, the death nail of the common where one of the things that you guys are funding when you give out raises is the ability for your employees to be able to stay here. And I heard what Mr. Stevens said about his housing, his house bills. That's a real thing. And the reason why we create housing is so that people can live someplace cheaper. your employees, and I don't know if you know this, Mark, but the the pay matrix for teachers who have degrees and are there for 25 years is less than six figures. How on earth is anyone going to be able to afford to live around here on that amount of money? That's what's driving your costs. You guys refuse to build homes, home prices go up. That's

why your taxes go up. You're missing it. You're all missing the big picture. And it's too late now. Now you've got to vote. And I urge you, Andy, call the vote. What's the difference? It's this week or it's next week. We all know what's coming. Call the vote. Let the voters see who's on what side or not, and go from there. Cuz it's too late to make these big, sweeping structural changes that Mark, if he had paid attention for 3 years, would have been able to come up with on his own because this isn't private enterprise. You can't just renegotiate a contract on the fly because you decided to show up to a meeting and decide it was convenient for you. That's not how this works. Call the vote.

Okay. Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Chair, you do have one more hand, don't you? Okay.

Hi, Leora Braum, 74 Adams Road. Um, I am a member of the school committee. I am speaking as a citizen. Um, I've heard a number of folks on the select board tonight uh talk about their business experience and what they would do in business. Um, while I contend that municipal services, including schools, are not businesses. I too own a business. I have worked in business for many years. Um, one of the things I do is manage multi-million dollar uh, budgets for publicly traded companies. So, I kind of know how businesses invest. And the fact is that when you have a business unit like the schools that way outperforms its budget, you invest more in that business unit, not less. And you certainly don't start punishing the people who are delivering those results. Thank you.

Thank you, Leora. Okay. No more hands. No, sir. All right. Let's move on. Uh, select board reports. Hey, buddy. Do you want I'll take your seat and hire me?

I don't know if you want to do that. All right, I'll go. Uh, charter review committee had its first meeting last week. Uh, there's not much to report yet, but we organized elected officers, discussed some ideas, existing ideas for charter updates, and set our meeting schedule. Um, I also attended the Grafton Water District meeting last week. The site work at East Street is done. They're moving over to Worcester Street now. They have approval for their bond for Worcester Street. Um, and also we'll be looking to coordinate with the town and the state's paving schedule um on Route 140 in an effort to replace uh some of the oldest remaining water manes from the American Legion up to the common.

They say the American Revolution. No, they are not from the American Revolution, but not that. Yeah, that's it for me. Anybody else? Okay. course uh town administrator report.

Uh to to be very brief, um been working on this quite a bit. Um running some numbers and trying to get this all buttoned up. Um we do have we are in anticipation of that final uh letter. We got an email last week from the Army Corps engineers agreeing to all of our stream changes and stipulations. We need this one official document, but we have released everything else um with the engineer um to be ready to go. Slide that in the packet and off we go. So, we're right there. I I I don't have a full accounting of what we saved by going through this process, but it is substantial. Uh maybe well substantial couple hundred,000. We'll have a full accounting of what we think crown at the end. But so it dragged it on but we saved some real dollars. That's all I have. Thank you. Uh anything correspondence? Anybody else wish to discuss? Um I had two things. There was a request for us to consider uh 2026 motorcycle safety awareness proclamation. Is that uh something the board would be interested in? seemed easy enough.

I am. You are. I got a rider. Absolutely. We can uh we'll get that on an agenda. Um the other thing I' I'd like uh if the the TA's office could start looking into um the updated laws around cannabis social consumption license licensing. We had a correspondence about that. Um and we can consider putting that on a future agenda as well. Uh meeting minutes. Mr. Chair, I move the board vote to approve the meeting minutes for October 9, 2018 as written. Second. Okay. Motion second. Any discussion? Hearing none. Uh by roll call. Mr. Offen. Hton. I. Mr. Do I. Mr. Almo. Alamo. I. Miss Foley.

Foley. I. Is this yours? No. Uh, I can take a motion to adjurnn. So move. Second. Okay. Uh, by roll call. Mr. Offen. Do I. Mr. Do I? Do I. Mr. Alamo. Alamo. I. Miss Foley. Folley. I Jefferson. I