Planning Board - Regular Meeting

for Monday, December 8th, 2025. Uh, everyone, um, Natalia is on on the wire. You can hear us? Yes.

Okay. I think that'll cover that base. Um that brings us to our f first item which is public input. This is when anyone who wants to talk to us about something that's within our purview and is not otherwise on the agenda. This is your chance. raise your hand out on the internet or in the room or up here. I don't see anyone. No hands on Zoom.

Okay, that brings us to action items. Let's see. Let me just check. um acceptance vote annual parking and traffic demand management management report for the TUS Grafton campus/storm water maintenance plan certification from School of Veterinary Medicine TUS. Uh

so I'll just do a brief um intro and give the TUS team an opportunity to add anything that I might be missing. But this is the annual certification of the um parking and traffic uh demand management as well as this um certification of compliance with the storm water um on&m plan. So this is required through the zoning every year. um for verification approval by the board and we use it as a kind of a benchmark to gauge you know how the board gauges um reviewing future plans and kind of balancing parking needs and demand versus supply. Um I did do a chart here just kind of outlining the differences between reports received since FY22 through now. Um you can see that there's obviously parking de supply is um is increased over the years um and demand is is fluctuating but the um the university does have sufficient parking available. Um one thing that I did note and maybe the tus team will be able to clarify. I believe Heidi is here. I don't think that this report that was submitted included the 150 spaces that were permitted by the board in April of 2025. So that's another 150 spaces um that it appear you know that um you can add to the uh to the supply that was reported for this year. So, um, one other thing that I would like to call out is that does we, this will be discussed later, but we did receive a parking some parking numbers for, um, from TUS that are slightly different than this. Um, and that, you know, that will be evaluated during the public hearing process, but that verifies that there's even more spaces that are available on campus than what's listed here. So, there's a little bit of back and forth.

I think it's just two two different um people preparing two different um things. So, there's actually probably closer to I think 1,50 spaces that are actually um in the parking supply versus the demand. Yeah. When we get down to the public hearing tonight, uh they're talking about some additional parking spaces. Does this this is before those be before the changes that that hearing is about? Yes. Yeah. I was u interested to see that we're talking about essentially a thousand parking places over there.

Yeah. I don't I think that's the biggest uh entity parking for the big, you know, the biggest amount for any entity in Grafton. Mhm. By quite a lot. It's probably more than even the Wyman Gordon lots were when they were fully used, I suspect. Yeah. Okay. Does anyone have anything they want to talk to us about on this? Does anyone have any questions? Does anyone want to make a motion? Hand in the hand in the audience.

Oh. [snorts]

Hi, good evening. Robert Corbett, executive director of planning, design, and construction for TUS. I just want to clarify something that Fiona said just because you know it's pertinent to the next discussion which is that the parking report for June of 2025 included the temporary lot that eventually became the permanent lot. So we did not add an additional 150 spaces this year. there were approximately 90 already in the temporary lot. So the net gain between the time of uh June 25 and then what you're going to hear later is is about 50 spaces, not 150.

Thank you. All I know is when I drive by there, I don't see a lot of empty parking spaces. Anybody else have anything? Any questions? Anybody else? Well, someone want to move to accept. So moved and seconded. Moved and seconded. Any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor?

I opposed. So voted unanimously. Bond approval and acceptance. Section two, the writings, uh, DP 2020, 88 Adams Road. Is there anyone here that ought to come down to the to the microphone?

How you doing? Hi. Uh, name Ranken. Uh, Kyle McCrae. project manager over there. Um

um I can give a brief overview and then turn it over to the writings um to elaborate. Uh so this uh tripartite agreement um was vetted by council prior to being presented to the board this evening. There was a few iterations that went back and forth, but this is the final agreed upon um version. Um the applicant has read over it and is comfortable with the language. Um the board may remember there was a construction estimate approved in 2023. Um and that's what was used as the basis for this because nothing had changed significantly even after we conf and we confirmed that with Graves rather. Um um just yeah, all of the lots in phase two are um the following this the lot release will follow the ultimate approval of of the bond if the board is comfortable with it. Um and yeah, I think that that's pretty much it. This is this is pretty pretty standard. I'm happy to answer any specific questions that the board may have about what's in the actual document, but um they need to they'll need to secure this security um so that they can move forward with developing phase two. So, just part of the subdivision.

Now, this doesn't overlap into other stuff that I've seen. So, we just need to talk about approving the bond. Yep. [clears throat] Yep. Is approving the pres presented questions. Anyone out there in the room or on the internet?

I imagine a motion would be in order to uh approve and accept the tripartate agreement and the bond estimate. Second. Moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor? I I I opposed. So voted unanimously. Which brings us to lot release request section two of the writings.

So as I just discussed, you know, the natural next step for the developer is to request lot releases um once they have an approved bond in place. Um the applicant is requesting the release of two of the remaining lots in phase one and all of phase two. Yes. Okay. Um yeah. So they can get um underway with with um completing that portion of the project. So this is again standard. Our typical form um was double checked and um we you know as a department we have no concerns just they just need all the all the prerequisites for realizing lots have been met.

Yes. Um, there's a I think there's a requirement for modifying Adams Road a bit. Did that get done? There's as as you come out on Adams Road to the right, there's a it goes up and it it it uh makes it you can't see the intersection as well as you should. And it was supposed to come down foot, two feet. Um, I'm not 100%. You don't? Okay. Maybe I don't remember. I remember. Yeah. I don't.

It sounds familiar to me, but I don't know for sure. Well, in any case, we'll look into that. Yeah. I mean, we can continue. Yeah. Yeah, this now does this get involved in the radiuses of the turns and all that business the radius of the entrance of the roads. We have a bunch of I don't know if that touches on this is this is this is separate

from that because I wasn't quite sure how that all came in. Okay. Um, well, anyone out there, anything, anybody, anybody, anybody? I will move that the board approve the lot the lot re the lot release request. Second. Moved and seconded. Discussion. Hearing none. All in favor? I. I. Opposed. [clears throat] So voted. Good. [cough] Motion, Gary, unanimously.

Uh they would also like to um request that the board votes to release the $220,000 bond for phase one since the new trip party I don't know if that was I should have brought this up la last one, but um since the new trip party is replacing that bond and also it's covered in phase two. I but Sorry. Go ahead. I was saying I don't think that we can. This is not on our agenda for tonight. Okay. Yeah. At the very least, whether that's an appropriate thing to be on the agenda, I'll leave it to staff. But that's a we can't do that vote tonight. Yeah, that definitely needs to be a separate vote on a future agenda and I have to I have to double check if that's part of the 20% contingency. Okay. We won't be able to

they will be able to grant the rel. I tried to look at some of this and I couldn't tell about that. I I could you know I don't know triparty agreements. There's Natalia. Natalyia's hand is up. Natalia. So, this tripod agreement covers both phase one and two. The total amount covers 20% of both phases, and they've completed more than than the um Yeah. Well, in other words, we're holding more than than the work that's left to complete for both. I I think it's correct though that it really ought to appear on the agenda so that we can Okay. Yeah. Have the ground work done.

Yes. It feels straightforward to do but Yes. No. Exactly. Yeah. It sounds easy when you Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So plan on I like those easy ones. Yes. Yeah. Fiona Fiona will follow up on that for for the next meeting. Okay. I'll be in touch. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. [snorts] brings me to ecode 360 project update.

Okie dos. So, this was something that I learned about when I got back. So, I don't have a ton of information about it at this point other than um E-Code is a just basically an online kind of clearing house of all regulations and bylaws and associated enforcement mechanisms and towns. A lot of communities use e-code. Um I attached a few samples in the meeting materials just so you know you can get a feel of how different communities do this. Um, as the the reason why I'm putting this in front of you now is because I guess this was started uh a few years ago and kind of had a slower roll out, but now the new town clerk is starting to really kind of get the things going again with this project. and it's going to result in a recontification of the zoning bylaws and potentially some changes that help clarify and streamline the rags. So there's some areas where you know I think through the years you know zoning bylaws are updated over you know every year for I don't even you know Grafton has had several iterations and changes um since you know 86 and sometimes they're not always talking to each other very well. So, we're wanting to make sure that name, you know, names of districts um are consistent, you know, references to laws and things like that. We're trying not to do any like significant policy level changes, but we do there will be a lot of um cleaning up and that's part of this e-code update in addition to the recontification. So, we have nothing available to present to the board yet, but I just want to lay the groundwork early and have an introductory

conversation with you all about this so you're not getting surprised later on like I'm hearing that we're updating this like what's going on. So, and I think you know the the anticipated timeline um to bring this to town meeting isn't until 2027 I think at the earliest because there's a lot of coordination that's involved. I need to work with Tracy on um zoning bylaw language as well and what she's comfortable with because obviously she'll be enforcing whatever um the board approves. So yeah, this is just a high level conversation. Anything that the board wants to relay to me about the project or anything they want to make sure that I'm staying on top of or just general concerns that you have that I can work through with the consultant, um let me know. And

the consultant there's a consultant. Tell me about the consultant. The consultant, her name is Shelly and she works, she's a very good she is familiar with how towns operate and how town meeting works and how zoning bylaws are changes. I where is she and how are she being paid? I am not sure. This was funded like seven years ago through like a special budget line item I believe for the work. So, we're trying to get it finalized. You might want to is But they've been full. It doesn't sound familiar. They've been fully paid already. That's my understanding that they've been

they've been paid to complete this work. So now they're and now that they have we have a new clerk who's spearheading it. That's how that's rolling out. It's probably worth verifying that the [clears throat] they've been paid to complete rather than just paid for what they've already done, especially after years have passed. Sometimes there's lines in contracts that can change things. Mhm.

The other I guess I want to say is out loud, it seems like having looked at a few towns just from what you've shared with us that our existing by zoning bylaw signed bylaw and charter and all that can go into this without changes, but the changes are just a extra step that is good to do. And yes. Yes. And it's just Yeah. It's probably changes that are long overdue. Even if we're doing a presentation to town meeting for basically more or less an overhaul and recontification, we might as well do it now. And obviously the board will be able to take a Does anyone and a look at what we suggest.

Does anyone remember any hearing about this before? Uh, [clears throat] I don't recall hearing about a project haven't been having been funded while I was working on the general bylaw review committee. I remember this coming up in conversations with Evan that he had, you know, he had something that he, you know, he had in mind to do this, but it didn't sound to me like it was a project that had been kicked off or even funded, but whatever. Mhm.

Um, you know, they some of there's there's a lot I I don't know how much how much of the TA's bylaws and regulations are intended to be included in this just from seeing it. I you again going back to my work on the bylaw study committee and even before then I've you know from time to time looked at looked looked at other towns for the bylaws and ecodes 360 comes up frequently u a lot of a lot of folks have done it

and some of the work that might go into that is basically nonsubstantive you things like formatting things like consistency of references to the general laws. There's a lot of stuff that I caught and fixed during the bylaw study, but there was also some things that I had left, you know, we we the bylaw stud committee left for future work and it could very well happen as part of this.

Yeah. But uh you know we may be we may or may not be including the town charter in this the general bylaws the zoning bylaws the subdivision rules and regulations other rules and regulations. There's a lot of latitude for difference of town different towns have included in this. Um, I was a little bit surprised to see that this work is actually now getting the it's now underway or you know that we're we're actually doing something which is kind of kind of cool. But it uh you for all for all the stuff that I've done that's close to this topic this is this is really the first I've heard that things are going somewhere with this.

Yes. I think just my understanding is you know with bandwidth and trying to take it on and and it was just it was a difficult roll out at the beginning but um now that the clerk's office is more capacity they're really ready to jump into this the charter the general bylaw and the subdivision regs and the zoning bylaw are already uploaded but they're going through um a period of just kind of Q&A and kind of commentary internally among staff But yeah, all of those regulations that you listed, Dave, are in there. Well, whatever we should know, I'd like to hear

if and when we figure any of that out. I'd like to know about how things are getting paid for and um you know who has what responsibilities and what's going on since um really haven't heard you know I first I heard of it that I can remember so there's some stories but we don't you know tonight we got other things to do and I think we've gotten about all the information we have at this point yeah but this is a project It's the town clerk is is the lead with the assistance of, you know, myself, Tracy, Evan, and other, you know, key staff. But, but but who is this?

I don't know if there was a budget [clears throat] line item in their operational budget or or how they did that. How they did it? I'm not sure.

Okay. Anything else on it? Bills, I move that the board Approve the payment of the bills as drafted. Second. Moved and seconded. Any discussion? Hearing none. All in favor? I I opposed. So voted unanimously. Staff report.

Okay. So I've been just playing catchup because I've been out. So um the past week has been a little crazy, but I was able to apply for MVP 2.0 0. Um, I've been going into e-code and doing the question and answers. There's about 200 questions that were waiting for me upon my return. Um, so just trying to tackle that. Um, the uh, VHB's lid um, updates for our subdivision rags. I'm wanting to close that out soon. Um, I've kind of gotten my head back into that and was able to meet with the consultant at VHB. I think we're at the final the end of the road. Um if the board the board may recall, we did have um comment period throughout kind of 2023 and then we reignited that in 2025. We had discussed this over the summer. Some comments were provided from the by the board at that time. Those have been incorporated and now we're just ready to do the final close out if the board is comfortable with the changes as presented. So stay tuned for those um updates. Um we are we had our last our intern from Worcester State had her last day today. So uh she did do a lot of great work including um I had her doing some research for uh the affordable housing trust in term in terms of payment in LW and I had her working on a research project regarding tree preservation bylaws. So two top two things that have come up um have been requested of my office to kind of look into. So it was great for her to be able to to delve into that and and produce a really nicely nicely done report. So happy h reports rather. Um DTA applications are in to CMRPC for um the January 2026 cycle. Um, we're going to be going after a comprehensive permitting guide, which the the goal is to have everything in

one place, one resource, including, you know, information about what different departments permit what. If you want to start a business, this is in Grafton, this is how you do it. um if you want, you know, some state resources, we just want to have one really polished uh permitting guide for every use and the EDC will be able to utilize it when they're doing their networking events. And um we're really excited about it. And then continuing the flexible development um project that we had have been working on with CMRPC throughout 2025. So, continuing that research and um hopefully getting some recommendations for bylaw updates from Mike and the team there. So, um we're also advertising for the office assistant position again. So, um we're going going to be starting interviews and getting that underway. So, I'm happy to answer any questions about anything

that the guide um development guide tells you. Um I'd hope that we'd have do that in a way so that we know how we can readily update it when we change things. Mhm. Um Mhm. like have all have the materials we need to be able to go in and update ourselves. Update it ourselves. Um whatever. I'll make sure to get formats from them if [clears throat] we get approved so that we can do that.

Okay. Any other report? That's it. It's all the report. Sorry. That's that's the all the report. Uh yeah, that's Yes. So far [laughter] catching up on emails is done.

That's everything from Lake Wagon. Never mind. Um correspondence. Anybody have anything in correspondence? Reports from planning board representatives on town committees and CMRPC. Board members should have received the latest sign up form for uh the quarterly meeting if you'd like to participate. It's a it's a Zoom safe streets and roads for all.

Anybody else have anything on correspondence or in in activities? Nothing new from me. Nobody. Okay. Well, that brings us to uh needing to vamp for uh two and a half minutes. Did Mr. Chair, did you want You have something. Did you want to sign off on the paperwork while we have some time? Who Who signs what? Um every board member will sign the um the bond that you just approved and the lot release and Natalya will witness it on Zoom. So maybe we can do that while we're wait

um there's a form that should be I see a I see a sign here and there's a phrase what what you just tell him there's a phrase right there that we just say I Robert Hasser acknowledge the execution of the foregoing instrument to be my free act and deed. And I think I have to come down here to the tri party last agreement. Yep.

And uh I Robert Hassinger acknowledge the execution and of the foregoing instrument to be my free act and deed. Who wants it next? If it'll go back end. All right. [clears throat] The seven jumbo's path. We could get ready if you if anybody wants to.

About to sign the dry pretty agreement. I, David Robbins, acknowledge the execution of the foregoing instrument to my to be my free act indeed. And as to the lot release, I, David Robbins, acknowledge the execution of the foregoing instrument to be my free act and deed. Your turn, Greg. All right. Okay. For the lot release and um I, Greg Delamole, acknowledge the execution of the foregoing instrument to be my free act and deed. And for the tripart agreement, I Greg Delmaly acknowledge the execution of the foregoing instrument to be my free act indeed. There's no spot for me here. Or am I missing it?

Uh, that should have been your name there. So, I just scratch it. Yeah. Sorry about that, Greg. That's no problem. Uh, write it in. Write. Yes, please. Write it in. Print it to Greg. I had to do the same thing to correct mine. All good. Pass it. Pass it down.

All right. I'm going to slightly cheat, Natalia, but you can speak up if I if you need me to do it slightly differently. I, Justin Wood, acknowledge the execution of the foregoing instruments to be my free act indeed [snorts] so I don't have to say it once. I, Michael [clears throat] Palmer, acknowledge the execution of the foregoing instruments to be my free act indeed. Sometimes on me.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Natalia. That brings us to uh request uh the continuation of the hearing uh on a request for project plan review PPR 2025-03 7 Jumbo's path from the trustees of Tus College aka TUS University. We already did the reading of the notice last time. Okay. Didn't we? We I don't know.

We did. I I generally say this read it again for the very first actual hearing, but Sure. Yeah, I have it here. It says the 24th, [clears throat] but I have it here.

Uh the Grafton Planning Board will hold a public meeting on Monday, November 24th, 2025, commencing at 7:30 p.m. in the conference room A at the Grafton Memorial Municipal Center. 30 Providence Road, Grafton, Massachusetts, to consider an application for a project plan review for the Cummings School of Veterary Medicine at Tus University, pursuant to section 9.6.1.2 of the Grafton zoning bylaw for the construction of a Cummings School Learning Center building on property located at 7 Jumbo's Path and shown as Grafton assessor's map 21, lots 1.A, 100.A, 101.A, and 102.A. A said property is located in an office light industrial OI and campus development overlay CDO zoning district. The applicant owner is trustees of Tus College aka Tus University. Copies of the application and the plan are available for public inspection at the planning department during regular business hours or on the town of Grafton website at www.grafton-mma.gov on the planning department development projects web page. Okay, if everybody's happy.

So, Mr. Chair, I think the TUS folks have a presentation they'd like to share. So, instead of doing my spiel, I'll just let them do it. [laughter] Thank you, Julie. If you want to There you go. You You want to give your name right?

Yes, I will. Good evening, everyone. I'm Liza Perry. I'm the deputy director of government and community relations for Tus University. Um thank you to Chair Hassinger, Vice Chairman Wood, uh members of the planning board, um Fiona, Natalia for reviewing our proposal for the Cummings Learning Center, otherwise referred to as seven jumbo's path on the agenda. Um next slide, please Julie. Tonight, uh we will go through a team introduction. Uh we will go over the project's purpose and need. um provide a site context plan, floor plans, um show you the exist what the existing site looks like from Route 30, um and what uh the new view would look like, uh consistency with the approved master plan, parking plan, um the waiverss requested, and the project schedule. Um I'll now introduce our team. Again, my name is Liza Perry from Tus University. I'm joined here tonight um with Dean Alistister Crib um from the School uh Robert my colleague Robert Corbett the executive director of capital programs for Tus University uh our architect procon Jacob Mercer senior project director um our civil engineer niche engineering um we have Chris Hogney in the room representing NICH tonight um and then our um project managers who are our consultants Um Christ is here in person behind me and then Julie is controlling uh the slides on Zoom. Our construction manager um is Deacon and they are not uh present here with us tonight. I'll now turn it over to uh Dean Kreb to go over uh the project need.

Thank you. Thank you for having us again uh tonight. And as Eliza said, I'm Alistister K. I'm the dean at School. So you all know that coming school has been part of the graph community since like probably the late '7s and we renovated and built the first buildings on the campus back in the 1980s and we've grown a lot and changed a lot over that time with Grafton. We now employ about 700 people, second largest employer in Grafton and we bring over 45,000 visitors um to the community each year coming to our uh clinics and hospitals here on campus. Five years ago, um we undertook [clears throat] an extensive strategic planning exercise looking at how to move forward and keep the school vibrant. And um out of that process came a recognition that to contribute to serve the needs of Massachusetts and New England and beyond that we really needed to grow and revitalize the campus um so that we continue to remain important part of the Grafton community. Over the years since we started the school, which would be about 40 45 years um plus ago, um the way we now teach has changed a lot. Um we've done that to make it more relevant and effective for today's today's world. We've grown from a class of 36 students in 1983, that was the first graduating class, um to a class size of 130. So we now host 520 veterary students and about 50 graduate students each year. and the small animal hospital. That's the one if you drive by on route 30 with the glass out front. That's sort of the flagship small animal. In behind is large animal. We've got uh two other clinics actually on campus in other places. But that small animal hospital was built um looking well into the future and trying to accommodate 12,000 visits a year. And now we have 35,000 just to the small animal hospital alone. So that's just an example of all the things we need to

update do to update and expand our infrastructure and you've seen that happen over the last few years since I've been here. I not sure exactly how many times I've been here now but several. Um and we really appreciate the the support. So the new building we're presenting today is called the learning center or the veterary learning center. And we need that because we change the way we teach. So we don't teach so much with students sitting in a bunch of bleachers and the classes are bigger so they don't fit into our existing classrooms. So that's um the important driver. Um what is special about the building too is it will support many of our other programs such as continuing education events. So we just had one on this past weekend. We host uh several community events and we frequently get calls for community events where we don't actually despite the size of the buildings have capacity to hold them and we will in the new learning center and it will also support our K to2 programming. So it's going to give us a flexible teaching environment. It's going to have a large um social space for those functions. Uh the classrooms um are one is completely flat, the other one just has a very small rake and they're built to be um flexible. You're going to hear more details about it, but that's the the fundamental principles um behind the building. It's about 30,000 square feet and it's located and again you'll hear more detail about things underground and that sort of stuff, but it's located on the south side of Route 30 because we're trying to stop all the students from having to cross Route 30 during the day, right? There's a lot more traffic on the road and there's a lot more students and so with students going back and forth, the faculty and staff going back and forth, we do want to um reduce that. We're also going to take out the parking lots that are in the center of campus and move them to the periphery. So, this will go where one of the parking lots was. And, you know, I don't think um I don't think parking lots in the center of campus are

as nice as a nice green space with buildings around it. So, that's uh what we're trying to do, make it safer and more welcoming place for the students, our community, and for the Grafton community uh and surrounding areas as a whole. and we're hoping that it will be done in the fall of 2027. So with that, I'll turn it back to Eliza. Thank you, Dean Kreb. Uh Jacob Mercer from Procon will now provide a site context plan.

Good evening everyone. Uh Jacob Mercer, ProCon, project architect. Um on the screen, you can see our project site outlined in red. Um again, as Alicer said, it's to the south side of Route 30. um the animal hospital adjacent to the east uh and the Agnes Vera Center adjacent to the west. Um you know the thing that we really like about this site, it provides us a great opportunity to begin to consolidate those student facing functions towards the center of campus. Um as Alister said, displace that um parking to other areas um and still leave enough green space uh to provide a a campus pedestrian quad to the south side of the building. Um, inciting the building, we try to take advantage of this particular area with a relatively flat site. Um, so we don't have to do too much soil import export. Um, and um, we've also situated it to avoid some existing utilities that run through campus. Um, additionally, you'll see in addition to the um, parking lot demolition, there is the building G15, which is a small uh, stick built residential structure that's on the the left edge of that building there that will be uh, demolished as an enabling project for this building. I think at next slide, uh, Julie, I think Chris is gonna come up and speak to this. So, hello. Uh, Chris Hodney, project manager with Nich Engineering, civil engineer on the project. So, just going to walk you through some of the zoning aspects um of the project itself. So the the project site itself is about an acre and a half uh within the larger 375 plus or minus acre uh campus. So we we always try to balance the site from an impervious area perspective. It helps us

on the storm water front. We actually got this within 21 square ft. So you can kind of think of this as the building is taking the place of the parking lot which is going away. Um but from a land cover perspective it's it really is kind of unchanged in that from that perspective. Um and again being in inside such a large parcel, the only zoning setback that we really had to think too closely about was the front uh the front setback. We're pretty we're very far away from the other ones. So uh the required is 50. We're going to be a little bit more than 50 um with this building. Uh, one other thing we are proposing just for fire access and for, you know, potential fire issues, uh, which they hopefully will never happen, but there is a new fire hydrant proposed in the northwest corner of the building, um, kind of right where that sidewalk, uh, meets the sidewalk along Route 30 on the top right hand side of the plan. Um, that'll connect to the water man in Route 30. Um, and then also just providing, um, access around the building. So fires fire engines will be able to access the site from West Road Route 30 um and then also from the backside um by where the temporary classrooms are the transitional classrooms on the bottom of the plan. Um so it's going to provide that access um around the whole 360 sides of the building. I think I turned it back over to Jacob.

Thank you. Yeah, Jacob, do you want to do the floor plans? Actually, one more thing before Yeah.

Um so we had we made this change very recently. We haven't submitted this to you yet, but I just wanted to we wanted to um just let you know and get your thoughts on it because we will be submitting this. Uh one thing that we've added is another driveway entrance uh during construction. This is temporary um off of Route 30. Um the intent here being it's it's easier access to the site, but it also is preventing or really minimizing the amount of construction vehicles that have to go through the heart of the campus um down Jumbo's path where you know all the students are going to be. So this will give us access um from route 30 so that we can just shorten that path. Uh we would keep the one that we already were proposing on the backside just as you know if needed. Um but that will be submitted to you. Just wanted to bring that up. [clears throat] Thanks. So here's a look at the schematic floor plans of the building. Again, it's roughly 30,000 square ft with 20,000 plus or minus square feet on the first floor and 10,000 square feet on the second floor. On the first floor in purple purple color, you will see the two large classrooms. Um the one [snorts] on the top left is that low tier uh low rate classroom. Um, and the one on the right side is our flat floor flexible classroom that has a divisible partition um able to turn it into to uh smaller classrooms. Outside the classroom space, we have um student gathering spaces, uh student [snorts] kitchenet and lockers. And finally, uh in the upper right corner of the plan is our our restrooms and our mechanical and service spaces. Uh and on the second floor uh the second floor is served by or accessed by an elevator and two stairways. And really the function of this floor is office

space, um some small meeting rooms, uh restrooms and some ancillary support spaces. Uh moving to the exterior, this is the existing view of the site from Westboro Road. Um you can see the parking lot there uh in its current state. And here is uh a proposed view from again from that Westboro roadside. Um this is a one-story volume here facing Westboro Road. And we've kept it relatively simple and utilized brick to um tie it together with the other campus fabric uh along Westboro Road being the Animal Hospital and the Agnes Ferris Center. Then moving around to the south side of the building, this would be facing that uh future potential pedestrian quad. Um this is the main entry of the building. Again, we've utilized brick here at that entry piece to tie that together with the surrounding fabric. Um, the second story or the sorry, the two-story volume behind is um we're showing fiber cement panel on there currently um as sort of the the body of the building. Um in front of the building we're showing um some you can see some activation with gathering spaces um and outdoor seating um to begin to again activate that quad and and uh provide a a student um a studentf facing building in the center of the campus there. Next slide, Julie. And finally, uh this is just a view from the west. Uh to sort of tie it together for you, um that again, the twotory volume with the office space on top is in that fiber

cement. You can see the front entry to the right uh in brick and the one-story volume along Westboro Road again in brick to the left.

Thank you, Jacob. Robert is going to come up and talk about the master plan. So good evening, Robert Corbett, executive director. Couple [clears throat] of uh technical boxes that we need to check with the application. The first is that it is consistent with the master plan. The master plan was uh approved by this committee in 2021. Uh in that plan we showed a expansion of the uh new of the existing large animal hospital [clears throat] that uh was described as having academic medical and clinical functions. Uh what we are doing is effectively accelerating the academic portion of that project. uh we will come later for the expansion of the clinical and the medical hospital but effectively it's in the same location. We're just bicting it and creating two buildings where previously in the plan there was one. Uh the balance of the attributes of the master plan we believe are are exactly the same. We are limiting pedestrians crossing uh Westboro Road. We are creating the courtyard that is in front of the building that was uh identified in the master plan and uh we are keeping the academic uh and learning uh in close proximity to the hospital. Next, uh we have to show adequate parking. Um as the uh as we discussed earlier this evening, the parking, traffic and storm water plan that was approved by the committee was as of June 2025. Uh the starting point for these

calculations is the current parking at the time of the application. So there have been slight increases in both the supply side and the demand side. On the supply side, we completed what was a temporary uh parking lot at the um lower valley road which previously had 88 spaces as a temporary lot. We increased it to almost 150 um by uh completing paving and expanding that lot. On the demand side in the school year 2025 2026 we have approximately 36 additional students from the 2425 uh academic year. So the combination of those two things we showed a surplus of nine additional spaces uh in the in the June submission. The starting point here is that we have in actuality 40 additional spaces presently. I'll also remind the committee that in that report it mo it mentions that our utilization is under 80%. So that means that our demand is actually overstated by 20% by calculation versus reality. So even when supply and demand is calculating to be even there actually is a surplus of 20% spaces. Uh we are reducing the supply by 56 spaces by eliminating the parking lot in order to uh construct the building. Um we are proposing to construct a new parking lot for an additional 116 spaces. And so and we will have an enrollment increase that will require us

to have an additional 91 spaces on the demand side. So the supply will increase from 1,58 to 1,118 and on the demand side we are required to have 1,19. So, a condition of the approval is we are requesting that you concurrently um link the new parking lot at building 18 to meet the requirement for the additional parking. We additionally have to meet the requirements for the electrical vehicle charging stations. Um the calculations are in the um in our memo. Um for a level two parking station, that's um medium energy required to have 10 spaces. Of the 56 spaces that we are eliminating, four of them were EV stations. So we propose to replace in the new parking lot 14 EV ready spaces. Next, our calcul application is complete. It checks all the boxes with the exception of earthwork calculations and a traffic study. We are requesting technical waiverss of these two items. the earthwork calculations we provided a cut and fill analysis which we believe meets the standards. Um we showed that there is little to no net import and therefore we didn't go through the process of determining exactly where each foot of

the dirt would go once it was on the site. the traffic study we provided in the uh update of the uh parking traffic and storm water as of June 2025. Um therefore we did not feel that it was uh necessary at your discretion. Um so we're requesting a waiver for that as well. Next, as the dean mentioned, um we're seeking approvals here in December. We would start construction in February. Um take us approximately 3 months to do the foundations and the site work and then approximately a year to build the building and then we would be um ready for occupancy in the summer of 2027. That concludes our presentation and we'd be happy to take any questions.

I haven't been able to figure out where the [clears throat] new parking lot would be. Um, and I want to know about losing the old spaces before the new spaces are in or how do you have that program? Yes. So, Julie, can you bring up the campuswide site plan? Do you remember the big the building we tore down recently? We demolished a an old building on the hill. That's where the parking lot's going to go. Old building 18.

Someone's going to have to point. Yeah. And I can't see where you right behind you. Behind you. No, right here. Right here. [laughter] We need a map for people so they can tell where things are. Ah, that's over towards where the the the little business things were. The technical part, I guess. Yep. Yeah. For those watching at home, if they would do the This is the very bottom of the screen to the left hand side that building just off of

Wow. Okay. God, zoom that in. Wildlife Drive. No, Wildwood side of that. So, [clears throat] tell me about the phasing. So, we do plan on making that building 18 lot a temporary parking lot in the interim for the 56 spaces. Um we will need to work exactly through the phasing in order to build that lot basically over the summer when peak demand is low so that we don't have any issue with you know trying to address all the parkers at the peak time of the of the university season

because as I say when I drive by there I see an awful lot of cars and uh I don't want us to be I don't want any parking on Route 30.

Yeah, I think that the the reality is if you go deep into the campus, we do have parking as the dean mentioned that's very remote. When you go to the remote locations, you actually find out that there is a substantial amount. Some of our lots actually have very few cars with many, many spaces. So, that goes to the total utilization. Yes, this the spaces are a little farther away and take a little more time to walk. Um but there is adequate parking on the campus

and uh how much [clears throat] traffic uh traffic study um how much is this changing when it's done the um trips per day in and out of on and off of Route 30? We didn't do the full analysis and didn't submit. However, we believe that uh with car pooling and other offsets, we believe there'll be less than 50 trips per day. Added added and that is all due to student enrollment.

If I can just add a clarification or some additional information about that and also the parking and you know mentioned the 77%. So our total numbers are spread over 7 days 24 hours a day. Right. So because the students are during the day, but our hospitals are open at night. So there's a significant portion if you go to the hospital, it's full of people at night. So there's a significant portion that park out of the regular hours, which spreads people out. So that's that's um one one part of the actual demand being lower than the absolute number as as Robert um said. And the actual um the building won't actually change much. We're already now um 30 students shy of the we only have one more class to add with 130 students. So the number of students that will be on the campus um two years from now and that building on is on is only 30 more than are on there now. So it's not it itself is not going to cause a big jump. And what we're hoping, one of the things that, believe it or not, the students do right now is they'll park up in the top right corner and then they have to do something over the top uh sorry, the top left corner, they have to do something over on the right side. So they'll get in their car and they'll drive it across campus and park on the other side. So I'm hoping that with this and centralizing things in the center, we'll actually reduce some of that movement. It's not a lot, but it it there is I think probably enough in there that'll offset the 30 extra students. Do I remember that's that was before you got there that was a gymnasium and now it's a library.

That is correct. Yeah. Library and study space. Yeah. And there's a they do cross you know you were trying to keep them from

Yeah. We're we're trying to keep them. So right now what also happens in the library there's a lecture hall in there. So they go to the lecture hall and then if they have to go to the anatomy lab or they want to go to the lunchroom or whatever they have to cross over. So what we're doing is moving the majority of the teaching um to the under route 30 of the DVM students and then we'll move the graduate students into the north of Route 30 so the graduate students won't have to cross and the student the DVM students won't have to cross and so that's the the goal to reduce the overall movement back and forth. Okay, questions.

Few comments for from you at the moment. Number one, since it was mentioned that we submitted curious about the board's feedback, at least for me, I do like the idea of that temporary construction parking. I think that, you know, right after Route 30 probably makes more sense to me than having these vehicles have to travel through the entire campus. That that's a good thing to me. Um the one of the other thoughts I had and I don't know if you're familiar with the phrase desire path but seeing some of the renderings of this desire path is basically people in general are going to walk their desired path even if there's a you know laid out path in front of them. So like I saw one of the renderings where there's like an offset thing for the front of the front of this new building there. My imagination is students might go, I'm gonna skip the corners there and just walk across the grass. Nothing I'm really concerned about. Just a a thought to say out loud that you know like I've seen pictures of some colleges you in general in the country that have completely redid their their walkway layout because they just go, "Okay, well there's where the grass went away." [laughter] So just figured I'd mention that thought, you know.

Yeah. Do your walkways have to be handicapped uh accessible? So, you have some limits on how you can build them? Yes. Um there is a parking lot in the lower right hand corner that's going to remain that already has uh ADA spaces and we're creating an ADA path from that parking lot to the building. Okay, more questions. More questions. any Oh,

yeah. I saw comment from fire about fire access. Have you Yeah. Have we has anybody followed up on that? Is is we will I'm sure we I'm sure the board would be would want to make sure that fire is satisfied that they'll have adequate access to the building. We agree. Yes. Um, what we've done, if you could go to the site plan again, what we've proposed is that the pathway that runs on the right side of the building in this diagram is extra wide so it can accommodate the fire truck. Okay. It's not just the width, it's the weight. Mhm.

You know, [clears throat] so it it it has to be designed if if that's going to be a path of the fight, it has to be designed as a road. Mhm. So that's it's like I said, it's not the width that's Yep. Yeah. So we'll just I I guess we'll have to get that resolved. Yeah. Follow follow up with Mike to make sure that he's [clears throat] he's satisfied that fire's requirements are met here. Yeah. Which means they they have to they have to give us something more, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, just a ultimately what we'd want on the record is a confirmation from Mike Colleen that uh that

what we're approving fire is comfortable with what we are approving. We we always like to close the loop with fire and sometimes it sometimes we go a couple rounds before that happens. Maybe doing better now. Yeah, I think I think recent and re recently we have been more consistent on that. Okay. Anyone else? Anyone else?

You talked about expansion up to to trying to target 600 students somewhere in that neighborhood, but it seems like your growth has been even better than that recently. So, is that going to, you know, be a little bit low? It seems like you're you're you're underestimating the amount of growth you're going to have.

So, the what I'm giving you is sort of our current growth level. So if I want to grow my DVM program, I actually have to get approval from accrediting agencies. So I can't just decide to go up. So we have built we're building that we can go up to 150 um students. That's why the classrooms, if you look, they're 160. They always have to be a little bit more than you ultimately want because somebody falls back, etc. And ultimately, we do want to grow our graduate students, but the 160 comes from four times the 150 DVM students a year. So, we'd have to grow 20 more in each class, but that will take a while to happen because we have we'd have to get approval. We have to show that we're doing everything correctly with 130 first. Okay. Yeah.

Thank you.

And the reason we're this is complicated. The reason we're only going up 30 more now is that up until ne this when we finish this next year in the fourth year of the program we take 20 to 30 international students in. So they're international in that they're going to veterary school in places like Ross and St. George in the Caribbean. They don't have the clinical year there. So they're they're all Americans but they're going to school there and then they come and do their fourth year in veterary schools here. So we already have 130 in fourth year now which is why next year it'll only be 30 up and then we're we're we're full because when we do the next year with 30 we're we're not with 30 more. We're no longer taking the international students. [clears throat] What are the capacities of the new classrooms class spaces?

There are 160 each for the two for for each class. Yeah. And then the one that can be divisible into two is you can break it down to two groups of 80. Okay. [clears throat] So 320 students could be in that building. We'll have 260 to start could be in the building. Yeah. What I was thinking about is I haven't noticed a happening in recent years, but in past years there have been community things in the whatever theater. Yeah. Amphitheater. Yeah. That you've got. And uh

there aren't a whole lot of places in town to have like I can remember planning board hearings with hund and some odd people wanting to be there. Um, so I hope if if your class schedules work, maybe someday we might be able to any evening for sure in pretty much any weekend um during the dayings.

But um yeah, and so ultimately in that that one classroom that will be our only building with more than one classroom in it. So if you want to have something where you've got two or three things going on at the same time, we'll actually be able to have three separate classrooms and then the social area in the front. So it'll be much more amanable to, you know, continuing ed things, community stuff, um, etc. And [snorts] so and we've [clears throat] we've hosted um, uh, we've we've hosted the Anamaniscoco fair on campus. We've done, you know, a bunch of things like like that. So I do think it'll be an asset to the

when the time comes. I do have one more thought SL mostly for the board is where they are requesting a waiver on the traffic study. If the board's inclined to not grant that waiver, they have a lot more to do between now and when this can be approved. Does the board feel strongly one way or the other or do we want to vote on granting that waiver tonight? We have done that in some cases in the past.

I support the waiverss. Both I support both waiverss. Same here. I I given the circumstances here, I don't see a strong need for the traffic study. I I agree on uh on both waiverss is that everybody is okay enough or do you want to vote? No, that's fine. Okay, thank you. Okay, so we'll we anticipate a favorable uh vote on your that waiver request. Thank you. Okay,

I had a question, Mr. Chair. Robert, can you just explain when you were mentioning earlier about the parking lot and how what what you're asking the board, you had mentioned that you're looking for a certain approval from them now, but we will need obviously to see plans going forward for the details of the lot. Oh, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. I know that you list conditions in the approval. All we're suggesting is that you l as a condition you list that those plans will be Yes. further developed and submitted. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, I think it it should be, you know, it's sort of on the record, correct? [snorts] Via what via what you've said tonight. It's kind of on the record.

Uh obviously, we'd ultimately like to see it in writing, but I think we can incorporate that in in the decision in an appropriate manner, but basically just to reiterate the there will be temporary parking created at that building 18 site. Yep. And ultimately that will be more fully developed as permanent parking. That is correct. But so the temporary parking is essenti essentially going to be created soon. Prior to start construction, probably after the snow [laughter]

and will you have temporary EV spaces as well? So, we did not plan on doing that and actually the reason is that the utilization of the EV on this campus is very very low. Um, it's kind of an anomaly because in Boston and our Grafton campuses, we're seeing 7% of our our spaces um we have electric vehicles, which is a pretty high number. Um but we're seeing nowhere near that demand yet on this campus. Um we're hopeful that by 2027 there will be a need and then you know we [snorts] could meet that need at that time.

I could tell you the reason why cuz I drive an electric car. We all live close, right? And so I don't charge my car at work. Most of it there's several people in my building and we all just park our EVs out in front. We don't go and park because we just drive back and forth and charge them at home. We have a few people who come from distance and they're the ones that that use them. But there's a lot more electric car use, which is different than Boston by the time you get there. Even if you're that far away, it was a slow Remind me what level two uh amounts to. How long does it take to

It is not fast enough to make my Nissan Leaf catch on fire. That's a level three is the real fast charging 30 minutes. The level two, it takes about four to five hours. And the level one takes my leave um [snorts] like 16 hours. So my son just got into a huge leaf and uh he seems to get by. Um okay. Um more conversation.

Is there any any followup from the peer review? The peerreview report was submitted into the record on the 5th. So, um, and I believe I I don't know if I Sorry, Liza, I might be blanking, but we would, you know, want to see a response to that. There's some concerns and some changes that were requested in that report. Um, Mitch will probably need to do some changes and I did have a couple of comments in my letter as well. So, you know, a com a combined like one document like answering some of those answering those concerns um is fine. Um but yeah, we definitely do want to see a response and confirmation if the changes are incorporated. So, yeah.

All right. My my reason for asking was that there is additional information to be received. Therefore, I would not recommend that we close the hearing tonight. Mhm. But uh I I would think honestly that it's more tweaks at this point. But yes, the changing of the PL details in the plans, maybe a couple of additions, minor stuff

on the assumption that there's not a lot of additional work required. It should be possible to respond to the peer review, provide any additional details as we've discussed tonight, uh within two weeks. So if I mean obviously it's it's really up to you guys how much time you think you might need but on the assumption that two weeks is sufficient time we would the the path forward then would likely to be to continue this hearing for two weeks. Our our next meeting is December 22nd which is Christmas week but it's Monday night but it's before Christmas.

Yes it is. [laughter] It's not in between Christmas and New Year's, which is usually problematic. If there's that's usually when we don't have a meeting because it's between if there is travel or reasons you guys can't do that date. The next meeting date we have on file is January 12th. I can join the 22nd by Zoom. Yes. Yes, I can be here. I think it sounds sounds like you you you guys are probably motivated to get this wrapped up and we are before the end of the year. If you want to ask for a continuation until then

um you tell us and then you sign a form that she's working. And meanwhile, subject to the availability of staff resource to do staff resource to do resources to do so. Uh it's conceivable that a draft decision could be available available for us could always [laughter] always subject to staff resources. Actually well we would like to ask I yeah I will not make any promises on behalf of staff here. Thank you, Dave. [laughter] Um, subject to staff availability, we would like to ask for a continuence to December 22nd.

I move the board grant the applicants upcoming written request to continue this hearing until December 22nd at 7:30 p.m. Second. Moved and seconded discussion [clears throat and cough] hearing. None. All in favor? I opposed. So vote. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Good. Yes. [clears throat]

And that brings us to 6B request for site plan approval SPA 2025-04 9 and 12 West Street Ada Investments LLC and Roman Catholic Bishop of Worcester. Um, this is a continuation of the hearing, but are we going to read? We do not need to read. We actually we did have testimony last time.

We did. Yes. Had discussion. Okay. See. Okay. So, um, since the last hearing, um, the board had requested some follow-up information about, um, the overlap of the application with the Dover amendment, um, as well as requested some changes be added to the plans, uh, including some dimensional information about the parking lot, um, any information about, um, improvements to the sidewalk for accessibility, um, some details about the play area, area. Um if there was specific area allocated to loading and unloading um and some other um just kind of basic kind of site plan elements including you know neighboring properties and whatnot. Um the applicant did provide a um additional uh some additional information in exhibit 12 which did include um the dimensions for um the perimeter of the parking area. Um and also elaboration on the location of the crosswalk which is going to be further south than the lawn space. I think it it was a bit um difficult with the first plan set um because it looked because the crosswalk is actually connecting to a lawn area. Um so we just the board had to request a clarification about that. Um and so that that information was uploaded. Um, I did reach out to council and I had followed up um as well um about what the board can and cannot require. Um, so I'm happy to kind of just reiterate that. Um I believe it was

mentioned last meeting but uh you know do amendment limits the board's authority to um you know basically bulk and height of structures yard sizes lot area setbacks open space parking and building coverage. So it's really um specific to the site as well. So the sidewalk and the crosswalk and those elements that are kind of outside of the site and the roadway and the public right of way the requests can be made but the private way private way. Yeah. Um but it's out of the jurisdiction of the board is my is my point. So you can't [clears throat]

but it should be within our jurisdiction to decide what submissions we need in order to do that job. Right? In other words, the bylaw calls for a site plan with a certain amount of information. And that's where where we are. We're at not having a compliant site plan uh and what to do about it. Can I can I um give some clarification? So just let me Mhm. Yeah. And that's right that the details that are pertaining to the list that I had just read and requesting that information is is definitely within the right of the board and you can have you can do that.

Well, thank you Fiona.

Good evening board members. Thank you. Um thank you so much for giving me an opportunity to come here and talk to you and present the site plan uh one more time. Um so one of the things that I had requested in the waiver document for our um site planning board was a request to wave our site plan requirement. That was the very first waiver in that and the reason I requested it because we are not planning to do any changes or modifications to the exterior of the building. Most of the project is going to be inside the building. And we are only doing flooring, changing the some of the walls to create classroom spaces and painting the building. The only thing that's outside the building that is being changed is addition of a playground between the garage that's part of the property and the church building. Um, and it's shown as part of the sort of smaller site plan that we submitted. But um I'm hoping that is sufficient to give us a permission to move forward with the project.

Mr. Chairman, [clears throat] I really want you to do this. I really do. But you've filed for a site plan approval review approval and you we don't have a site plan. So, so that's kind of part of the whole thing, you know, site plan approval. You don't have a site plan. You have not submitted a site plan. You submitted that the this other drawing that that shows the parking lot, but there are no property lines. There are no It's got to be a site plan.

There are two documents that are submitted as part of the application. There's one that shows the property lines and where the church exists. And there is another document that shows the parking lot, playground and where the building is in regards to it. So there are you are absolutely correct right that there is no big site plan that has been submitted as part of this project

but before we we are a very small business family business we are trying not to move forward at the speed of 100 miles per hour and create everything before even closing on the building. We are hoping that once we are close to closing the building, we are working with the title insurance company that will sort of dictate if we have to what are the requirements for the site plan. So if as of right now our hope is that we can move forward with the documents that we have the ones that show the property with the dimensions of it and the other one that shows the parking lot and the building. Then yes as we move forward we can make it a conditional approval that the kitty time will present a survey at a future point.

Yeah I think I think the board needs to keep in mind that under the do amendment there are eight specific things that we can regulate. we can we can insist on receiving information sufficient for us to evaluate compliance with those regulations. Beyond that and there there are a number of elements of a typical site plan that don't enter into you know there we can't demand as part of a do project. Um again bulk and height of structures we don't have any regulations related to the bulk of structures. We do have regulations relating to the height, yard size. We have regulations on on that on lot area. Uh the lot is an existing lot and it's not changing. uh we can regulate setbacks under do and uh the existing building presumably uh actually I should should mention this this is a became important to my thinking that the existing use is a do use

yes it's a religious use

yes it is now a do use the proposed use is also a do use the different paragraph of chapter 40 section 3 but importantly the child the child care is the exact same list of items matters that we are allowed to regulate. So from that from that perspective what I see here are the changes from the existing doy use to the new do proposed do use and of those changes that are there are exactly two one is the parking requirements for this use the parking requirements are different than for the religious use the other is the addition of the play area which has to meet setback requirements. So if nothing else, I would want to see the parking calculations which I think we've been presented with.

It has been. I would also want to see playground dimension documentation of whether that play area meets setback requirements. I haven't seen that yet. I mean I mean I can look I can look at the pictures at the aerial imagery and I can see that it's pretty obvious that it does meet setback requirements but that needs to be documented. Beyond that I don't think the board can ask for the full spectrum of site plans that the zoning bylaw accounts for because a lot of that doesn't relate to matters we are allowed to regulate under do. We can ask for documentation of everything that we regulate under do.

But Dave, just just a if you look at this drawing of the of the parking lot, we have no idea whether that's even on the property. We don't know where the property lines are. We don't know if it's over the property line. Nothing. It it's it's really not it's really not a it's really not a difficult thing to show that parking lot with the property lines. That's all. Yeah. And you you you can't understand setbacks without knowing the property lines, right? Correct.

Well, no. And but this isn't going to I mean I wouldn't I would assume that this is not going to relate to setbacks. This is going to relate to is the parking lot that's shown here that's shown as 42 spots and two handicap spots 100% on the piece of property. Do we have sufficient sufficient documentation of the parking? And we're not quite there as Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. But we're we're not far off. But you know, you'd want to show you'd want to show the the the parking lot in relationship to property lines. You'd want to show if you want to be really picky. You want to you want to know the dimensions of each parking space. Are are they compliant? I mean, it it's it's partly a matter of just show like having I'd like to have one drawing. Yes. That shows the property lines, the position of everything within the property lines, the setback lines. That would do it for me. Okay.

And through you, Mr. Chair. So just to kind of you know my thoughts in a little bit to Dave's point and Mr. Reed's point there I the the site plan that you mentioned is that was submitted in the you know initial materials that was 2004 shows the rectory doesn't show any of the parking at all. It doesn't even show the opposite side of West Street. You for me you I number one agree with Dave that we can't ask you for things that do doesn't cover. That's fine. But I do need to see the plan that shows the existing site conditions where the where the building is. You you know I'm not as worried about does the buildings, you know, meet the exact setback because they're not changing the building. But I do need to see that the play area does need to see that the you know parking lot meets that meets the setback is fully on the property. I would like to see the dimensions of the parking spaces so that we do know there the actual parking spaces you're saying fit in there will actually get laid out and fit in there properly.

Yeah. And I I think if that and that a a drawing you know drawn to the appropriate scale. Yes. With parking parking area parking spaces delineated for that scale. You don't Yeah. You don't need to label all those dimensions. Absolutely. Can I ask a clarifying question here? So even if we are not doing any changes to the parking lot, not even realigning right now, we are we did the calculation based on what parking we need and we submitted that as part of the application. Do we have to do um the parking line calculations

for for me? I want to see a I do want to see a properly scaled parking laid out in the parking lot that is there for your use. the the church's use, like I like I said last time we were here, they parked pretty much wherever anyone could fit to go into the church and then they left. I have no current confidence that the parking lot as it exists will necessarily have this number of parking spaces you are saying it it should with the turns that people need to make to come in and out of the parking lot. So that's one reason that's why I would want to see that that shows us in a site plan that the parking is adequate. So as of right now the application that I have submitted it shows that per our use based on our calculations we only need 35 parking spaces. The current parking lot has 50 parking spaces plus nine spaces that are behind the building. So that and that is documented by our architect. She has created that site plan. So that's on your side of this or the church's side of the street

or are you including the parking across the street when you say that? I'm including the parking at 9 West. That's across the street. Yep. Um yeah, I'm um do Who thinks that the that this plan you're looking for has to be stamped? I well it's gota I mean if you're gonna lay out the property lines you're gonna have it done by you know I would well that's what I'm you know I can draw I can draw something with the property lines

I would go as far as saying if you can show in the you know like property line stamp thing at least the number of parking spaces that you actually need with the you know beyond that yeah if you if you can show some if there are calcul ations that show that that parking area is sufficient to accommodate at least that many vehicles. Yes, that under the current requirements for how big parking spaces are and how big aisles are, which is where um I'm maybe Ray knows.

When was when was that built in the parking lot put in place? The church was built in the ' 70s. 1977. Yeah. Yes. When? 1977. 777. That was an existing parking lot from the from the church that was there. So that parking lot's been there for since the 40s. Well, but it was a different church. Like they No, it was St. Phillips. It was just a they building. New building. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Took down a building and put up a building. Yeah. Um, what rule what rules and what review would there have been at that time?

In 1977, Frank Noel was on the on the planning board at that time. [laughter] I can tell you that. I didn't realize he was ever on the planning. He was on everything else. He was on the pling for a long time. No, the the do the do amendment amendment was in force at that time. Yeah. Well, but um [clears throat] as to any assumptions you might be able to make that it was it complied with rules in order was found to comply with rules. Um no clue

you can't. Um, oh, and the other thing was whether there's any any wiggle room around uh uh nonconforming prior um uses uh and whether that helps at all. As best as I can tell, the existing building and site uh appear to conform. It certainly conform to all the current u regulations of the zoning bylaw in terms of use. It's an it's a permitted use as religious use. It's a do use.

Yeah. Yeah. Which limits about the problem we have. But uh but in in terms of the uh it appears to me from the measurements that are shown on that um ANR plan that was submitted as part of this and uh it shows some of the setbacks and distances but not all of them. But that's as best as I could tell, it appears that there are no nonconforming aspects of the current use. Mhm. Based on that drawing

based on Yeah. based based on that drawing based on what I could see. [clears throat] Based on exhibit two, right? Pardon? Based on exhibit two. Yeah.

Yeah. Mr. Chair, I think it's important to know for the applicant this is site plan approvals. So that means you're going to get it. It's they cannot deny it. So wouldn't it I I just I think it might make sense to if you have to produce the information at some point. I mean the build the construction can't commence without engineered stamp plans with the details.

Yes, absolutely. So, I think it's and I know you were mentioning that there's some, you know, small, you know, smaller business operation. and you're trying to deal with closing and all of that. But if you're if you're trying to close on this property and it's that's contingent on the decision of the board to during this hearing process, I mean, it's almost a non-issue it's a non-issue here, which other than the details that they're requesting and

you will get you will be able to have the use out on this site. And I will reiterate one other thing. Even without do, I don't I haven't heard one person on this board say they're against what you're planning to do here. And one thing that I do want to just add to what Fiona was just saying too is it may be frustrating for us asking for this now and needing it when we have these sketches. But the when we make a you if we approve ex exactly what we're seeing right now the issue comes down the line someone may try to bring us a site plan or a situation with exactly the level of detail you're providing but in a much more you complicated and difficult situation that then if we deny them after approving you it goes to court because they'll say you know why did you approve them and not at me. And then it's a it's a big it's sets a precedent basically that the courts will then require us to make the same process for everyone where we have this process we need to you know follow it. It's procedural but it is something that you know I feel we need to do.

So have you I'm going to ask you a question. Do you have you signed a pro a purchase and sale agreement? Yes we do have a purchase and sale agreement. So, so within that, prior to you financing this piece of property, the bank is going to re require you to have a site plan done or or to have the the uh Worester Dasis provide a site plan for that piece of property that that has the parking lot on it. So, the Roman Catholic Church, you were asking, no, there they do not have access to any site plans. Okay. So, so but the bank's going to require you to do a site plan. They the title insurance company might ask us to do a altar survey which sort of does like a high level.

You know what that's an altter survey might work in this situation but somebody's going to ask you to do a site plan. I agree alter survey cost $10,000 to do it. We are trying not to spend all the money and find out that this building won't work for us for some reason. So we are trying to see go one step at a time and see if this will even work for us. Right now, as of right now, you're in due diligence, right? We are in due diligence. Our due diligence ends on January 22nd. We extended it from November 22nd to January 22nd. So, we are in due diligence. We are trying to figure out if this is something that will work for the town, work for us. So, so and is everybody okay with it?

So, so let me just let me throw this out and I'm a non- voting member of this board, by the way. So, you know, I can't you can tell me to go pound sand. Um, but if you've if you, as Fiona just said, this is going to be approved. So, that's if that's part of your due diligence, you can take that to the bank. Okay, that's that's good. That that's a good thing.

But prior to the board voting to approve a site plan, there's got to be a site plan. So, so you can take that information and say yes, the Grafton Planning Board said, you know, conditionally that it's it's going to get approved and and as as Justin said, nobody on the board's going to complain about it. No, no one here is saying, "Oh, by the way, we don't want that." Everybody wants it. So, so take that to the bank. I don't know if Bang will take that take my word on that, [laughter] but here's here's where I think we are. I think we're close to an agreement, but this is where I think we are. For parking lot, there is no conf nonconformities or non-compliances. In the past, church had an occupancy of 200 people. We are only asking for a occupancy of 81 people. Based on our calculations and based on my architect's

[snorts]

calculations and summit the document we submitted there is 53 parking spaces we only need 35 we are not changing anything in the parking lot we're not changing any setbacks or anything but the playground I understand there is a setback requirement there is no dimensions I understand playground should have the fence is going to be under six feet so there will not be a permit required by the building department because it's a under six feet fence that that won't block anything. It's still on the property, but I'm happy to work with the architect to come up with the dimensions and show the setbacks on the playgrounds. Is that where is that is something that is all needed for us to move forward with the project?

It it could be close. If I were to take if I were to see the the diagram you have in the first page of exhibit 2, which shows the, you know, the the the the footprint of the building, the the the the parking, the walkway, the play area, if that were to be laid on top of the property lines, the the the the two property lines 9 and 12, and if those were if if if basically If that were expanded to show the property lines. Okay. Okay. We we can work on that.

For me at least, that would be sufficient to demonstrate compliance with the appropriate regulations under do. The architect would have to do that. Somebody would have to do it. Well, the architect probably has the hopefully a civil engineer. Hopefully a civil Oh, I know. I understand that. But um the drawing now is from the architect. So the architect drawing if the ar if presumably that's all to scale and it is a stamped drawing. So I'm assuming it's up to the scale. I can ask the architect to

Yeah. And so if the architect were to expand this diagram to to show the property lines so that so that we can see everything [snorts] in the context of the property lines you could we would then and perhaps it could even within the product lines it could even draw interior to the property lines could draw the setback lines. Sounds good. The front front side and rear can do that. Anything else? Does that does Oh, as I said before, I I want I want to see evidence that shows that the play area is complies with the setback requirements.

Setback requirements. And to do that, I need to see the property lines and I need to see where the play area is re relative to the property lines. Okay. if they didn't build the part the play ground the play area that wasn't on the plan and they went through and you know purchased and did whatever and all and then would they come back to us for an approval for a playground? My understanding from council was that we because of

there's a there's a modification process that we kind of have as a standard for all kind of site plan approvals but with do you can't overly like burden the applicant by having them come back all the time. That's why we were and I think what the board is trying to do here is I'm saying this is a project doesn't have any playground. It's just the the current church and the current parking lot. And we say, "Good." And they go ahead and they do their thing. Then they come back. We've gotten this bright idea. We want a playground. Now, this is a new thing. And um do they have to

I think that would be considered a modific with with the board's conference that would probably be considered like a major modification. But if they had the play area on one side of the building and then moved it, you know, 50 feet over, we couldn't make them come back again. You have to it has to be it has to re be reasonable what what the board is asking for.

We wouldn't have done anything and they would have developed whatever you know whatever we said whatever they asked us for and then at some future time that's a different thing you know that's an added use um or a different use um so it's a separate subject. Yeah. Is the requirement of your loan to be to have this approved prior to prior to closing on property? We're we're hoping that all the things are in line before we there's a bank requiring it. Bank is not specifically has said that but we want to have everything done before we complete our due diligence. We want to make sure that

maybe you should ask the bank. Yeah, maybe you should ask the bank. We can ask the bank. Yeah, I'd be surprised if they're not going to require it, but that's, you know, that's maybe you should ask them. So, what do we want to I think I know what you were getting at, Bob, though. for one just to kind of say out loud what I'm what I think you were getting to and but it takes away from the actual objective of of what this organization is. Yeah. If it's a daycare facility.

No, I'm not telling them not to do that. I'm just saying if by chance they were asking us for a plan that didn't have this play area which seems to be causing the problems with property lines. They're just, you know, we're not we're not putting it in a decision or anything. I'm just saying maybe a little different request would be easier to get approved and then you could have a new request for more. Um but

yeah, I think to kind of restate what what I understand from you is if we get this exhibit two just minus the play area like everything else is exactly the same. Would that be enough for the board to say you know what we can approve this right now? We don't you don't need to spend more money to get us to get an approval from us for now. Then after your due diligence is done, you purchase this and you start start work, you start opening it or whatever. Mhm. You can then go, you know what, now's the time I want to do the play area. Let's give you that you dimensionality, whatever, you know, setbacks.

You and it's entirely up to you how you want to. That's what I think I understood from what you were saying, Bob. But I think I said that two or three times. Yes. Um, but but it's beyond, you know, wouldn't that be require requiring them to have to do a refiling of and a modification and kind of going through this? Well, I don't know whether it be a modification or, you know, I don't know, new site plan, whatever. Um,

I think the bottom line is is that come back with a site plan, shows the property lines around the parking lot, shows the outdoor area that Dave's talking about and the setbacks from that. And I think then the board at that point would have a better idea of what's going on and then may vote to approve it on that, you know, based on that. Yeah. But but you really need to you really need to have the property lines on the on a site. Yeah.

Can I clarify the playground piece of it for a second? Um so if we take off the if I understood it correctly if we take out the playground from the exhibit to page one then the board is at a point where we can make a decision to move forward and then in future no it's not it's a is that by the bylaw tells about site plans and it doesn't as I recall give us any power to wave gave information on the site plan except to the extent that [clears throat]

what we ask for on a site plan if it doesn't fall within the parameters of do we cannot insist on getting that as part of a site plan. So what do you mean by site plan? Where does it say that in our bylaw? It doesn't have to say that in our bylaw. Dober says we can't demand anything that is not relevant to the matters that we can regulate under do we can regulate setbacks. No, can't we?

Yes. We don't have a stamped plan to allow us to conclusively decide that the setbacks are [snorts] acceptable or compliant. [clears throat] Yes, it is [snorts] what I'm I'm not going to try to look it up right this moment, but but there's a long list of things that we include in what we ask for in a site plan. Not all of those will be applicable in this case.

Well, um I don't know. Well, you gota figure you you got to work all that out, I suppose. But I think setbacks and abutterss um that's an example of something I don't think we can ask for under do a butters. We can't site plan. So So has to know what we can [clears throat] ask for a dimensional site plan. Yes. Yeah. And that's and that's really that's really all

we're saying with the money to do it. But I understand [laughter] I understand. But you're also you're also purchasing this building and and you're working with the bank and and all of that's got to happen. So we're not purchasing the building yet. We want to make sure that we can Yeah. So is your just to be clear. So is your concern that the the use as a daycare center wouldn't be allowed completely or is there specific things about how you want to place the the uh playground and such on it that you're worried about?

I know the use is allowed. I know there is a need. Community needs it. I know there is a need in Grafton for a daycare. Yeah,

that piece was part of my feasibility study and I did that. So I understand all that pieces. The part my concern is that if the project gets stuck, we move forward with the project by the building everything but the project is stuck in the details and the planning board hasn't approved it or the we don't get the construction permit then we are paying mortgage which is a huge amount and we are paying it every month and still trying to figure out the planning and construction pieces of it. So I think just just quickly I would also add my um like I support the use. I think everybody supports the use. I think what I'm hearing is this the document you've submitted the actual document isn't up to the standard of what a site plan needs to be for us to approve it. So we can't discuss our way around the document, you know. So you can either I think what people are saying is you can either move forward for forward with your process knowing you'll get the use and that the rest of it is just a conversation about getting the the other pieces in there or you you've got to come back with a a document that can get approved because it's that's we don't have that right now.

I don't know. We [clears throat] talked in a circle around it for a while. Yeah. So can we give the the applicant like exactly what they need to have in the document and then they can make their choice about if they want to move forward knowing they'll get the use or if they want to

pay to have the document created. So if you look so if you if you look at section 133D the site plans under site plan approval there are 31 items that are listed as being required as part of the site plan preferred prepared by a prof professional architect or registered professional engineer. Now quite a few of those we can't ask for under dober but some of them we can you know so you know the the essentials again are the property lines setbacks uh so I mean we can go through that list you can go eight things eight things the eight things are what we got to focus on

and those details need to be added not all the extra but the board the board's point is that and even for your mortgage I think you might need to to do it anyway But I think if you can provide if you could get stamped set of plans with the setback area included with some of the with the parking details at least with the property lines. Those three things seem to be the kind of core criteria that they're asking for. Have you seen a deed? Yes. that the the um dasis should have a deed and it should describe the property. Um there is a deed from 1850.

I don't that I kind [clears throat] of it was written in cursive very hard to read. [laughter] Well, but it's a deed and it probably has numbers on it. Yes, it has it has latitudes and it has numbers and longitudes too. That might be helpful. But my other thing is the dasis is interested in selling this to you. Maybe the dasis should document what they're selling to you. They said no. And that's because they don't want to spend any money on creating a site plan. So they don't want to sell it very badly.

No, they do. Trust me. Yeah. Well, maybe someone needs to have a conversation. Yes. Well, generally speaking, I think when you're selling a property, Yeah. you don't the It's assumed that the description and the deed is adequate. Correct. And the and the and the purchaser does all of the drawings. Yeah. Really? In this case, I think I I think we've kind of nailed down the minimum of what we need to see on a plan. Setbacks. Yeah. And you know, for forget that long list of things in 133D. I think Fiona Fiona can go through that list and point, you know, these are the things that the board that that the board needs to see. Okay?

You know, and it's not a you it's not it's not the level of detail we typically see on a site plan with things like landscaping, proposed signs, wetlands, all that stuff. But it's just enough. I mean, I think we've we've we're probably almost that horse is almost dead, I think. But if it's Fiona, you're clear on what the board is looking for here. But

and you and hope hopefully hopefully we can, you know, you you between the two of you, you can figure out what's the least amount of work you have to do to provide us with the documentation we need. But if I may, but it won't it won't be a stamped set of plans. Well, is what is what you're saying. Dave just read over a requirement that I don't think over overrides, which is stamped by a registered blah blah blah. Right. I just don't want to have if the architect puts in a line and puts in a measurement the next time and it's still not, you know, what they what they're what they're asking for. I just want to make sure that's

I think we need to provide like separate from this conversation because it's hard to hold it all in your head in writing exactly what needs to happen for the for the submitt of a new document and then the applicant can make their decision about how they do that because it's just tough to follow all submit a site plan that's con compliant with our bylaw right but there's sort of a subset of items Fiona can point to that they can work that out but Ray Why why couldn't the dasis lend her the money [laughter] to get to get the plan? That's not going to happen. But the diosis can't possibly want to sell this.

I have so many comments. And by the way, the an architect and I just want want to say that an architect can do a site plan but they can't stamp it as a civil engineer. So, so an architect can stamp it, but it's not unless it's unless it's a civil engineer that have has done it. It doesn't it doesn't really mean much. How do we get site plans in general? The site they're stamp normally stamped by both. No, no, but these people have a problem having a site plan before they buy. Yeah. Um, everybody that comes in here is

looking to get, you know, a special permit or a site plan or whatever. They're all required to have that and they haven't purchased the property yet. Um, and what what they have to they put the money up. Yes. I I do know some architects, you know, in architecture firms may have a civil engineer on their staff. Correct. They may also have someone in particular they typically work with. They might literally [snorts] share the plans they have with the civil engineer and might in some cases it could save you money. It might not who I don't know but that's you how I to answer the question how do they get one that that's one avenue that could be pursued.

Okay. Well, what now? So, we need we need to understand we need um playground setbacks information and we need property lines. You need a stamped site plan. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm looking for what's the least amount of work the applic can can do to provide the board with the information it needs. And basically again we're looking at the differences from the current use the current do use to the new the proposed new do use. What's different? Two things. The addition of the playground and how that relates to our regulations is we need to we need to have documentation that it meets the setback requirements. And we have the parking. We need documentation sufficient to show us that there is at least enough parking for the proposed use. [snorts] You know, and as you've described,

right, you you've got a calculation showing how much parking you need. You've got a parking area that pretty clearly accommodates more than that, right? So, do we need anything more for parking than what we have already provided in the narrative and the documents? Just the lines. copy lines and setbacks to the parking. The bylaw says stamped by registered professional engineer. Yeah.

If if I that's a required submission item and um we can't we don't have any power to overlook it. The bylaw says prepared by a professional architect or registered professional engineer. I don't see in 133D anywhere where it says it has to be stamped if you want to get if you want to be I wouldn't I wouldn't I Yeah, I think it they should be stamped plans always. It's there professional certification.

Yeah. Nobody's going to put those drawings out there without stamping. Yeah. A professional architect would Oh, is that right? They they put their they wouldn't put their name as the person who drew it. They might give you a drawing. Yeah. But it's it if you're worried about a civil engineer, the the site plan is can be prepared by a professional architect and not a professional engineer. But it has to get stamped. Has to get stamped. Whatever it takes for the architect to stamp. And I don't know. I mean, if if what you're saying is you got to have both. The architect never stamps his plans on his own. Site plans. No. Plans prepared by an

plans. Yes. Not site plans. We got like four dead horses at our feet right now. I would. Yeah. Breathe. Right. I would I told Linda I'd be home much earlier tonight. I got to tell you, if you come back the next time and you bring all the stuff that we're asking that the asking, we're going to be in and out of here in five minutes. Yep. And we'll give you a big hug and wish you well. [laughter] Do you think she can get a plan done in that much time? So I our next meeting, as I said earlier, is December 22nd. That is potentially very very tight for getting a stamp plan. Yeah,

it's possible. eventually if you have to figure out it's possible but it is tight the like I said the next one after that is January 12th I think I said yes January 12th that brings us very tight to your current due diligence deadline so it is if you do say you wanted to continue till December 22nd and you're not ready but you think you close

you easily ask staff to to continue the hearing like we've done in the past and that can be done. The the alternative we can just go straight to January if you wanted if we go we can't control your deadlines and you know we have the things we need to meet but beyond that you know it's really up to up to you and how we proceed. Okay. So we'll continue for December 22nd and we'll try to get the documents. That's so I move that the board grant the applicant's forthcoming written request to continue this hearing till December 22nd at 7:30 p.m. Second moved and seconded. Discussion

hearing none. All in favor? I opposed. So voted unanimously. We'll get through this. Believe me. Okay. Thank you so much. She's got a form to sign. All right. I don't think there's anything else that can lawfully come before us. Move to adjourn. Second. Moved and seconded. Not debatable. All in favor? I opposed. So voted. You will have to sign the form. She's getting ready.