Conservation Commission - Regular Meeting

I'll call the meeting to order. Before we get started, let's introduce everyone on this meeting. Sandy Brock, when I call your name, please confirm you can hear me by verifying that you are present. We'll start with commissioners. Travis. I'm here. Amira.

I'm here.

And both Jonathan and Noah are not present tonight. Staff.

Leah. I'm here, but we have our new commissioner. Jonathan's out. Emma is in.

Oh, okay. All right. So let me take a pause on opening the meeting and just you probably sent me this information. But so hi, Emma, if you want to just introduce yourself. Sorry that I'm a little behind. The time work has been a little bit nuts.

No worries. Yeah. Good evening, everyone. Emma Coates, new commissioner. Excited to be here. OK, we'll give it just a super short why and what your background is. Sure, yeah. I'm currently a land use planner at Tyne Bond. Prior to that, I worked municipal for Conservation Department in Lincoln, the planning department in the town of Wellesley. I also worked in the Springfield Forestry Department. So a lot of mass municipal work, do a lot with environmental, local, state and federal land use permitting at this point. So yeah, was looking for the best way to support the community. And I feel like given my education and experience, this seems like a good fit. So yeah, I'm excited to be here and get started.

That's great. Yeah. So I'll just, this is not really part of the meeting, but Leah, we can chat about when everyone's here, talk about the, the structure of the conservation commission. So, so on the chair, I've been a chair for many years. I am not married to this position. And so and if someone else, you know, would like to do it, happy to kind of, you know, have different models to do it. But and again, you're just starting. You have a lot of experience, but maybe you want to get a little settled. Amara pitched in one one week and did a fabulous job for being put on the spot because I had to recuse myself. So it's one of those things where Travis does it a lot too. So we have a lot of options there, but we should talk about it once everyone is here, all five of us are here, so. All right, having kind of said that, I will say, Amira, if you could just give an introduction to yourself.

Hi, my name's Amira. I've been on the commission for, I don't know, a year and a half now. I don't have a background in land planning or anything like that. I'm just interested in wetland conservation. So I've been taking a lot of the MACC classes and just trying to learn as much as I can.

Thanks.

Travis. Hey, Travis Mast. I've been a commissioner for four years now, maybe longer. I work for the federal government overseeing environmental compliance on large transportation projects. And before that, I worked in the habitat restoration and wetland permitting field.

Great. Nice to meet you. Thank you very much. All right, now we'll get going. And Emma, as far as this being your first public hearing, what I usually say, and Amaris can kind of give you the heads up on this, Feel free if you want to abstain, if you want to, just because you're not familiar with the local regs or you're not familiar with the project. Now, if it's a new project, you're certainly welcome to participate. I'm guessing you've been through some public hearings a few times. So I'll leave it up to you. And if you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Both Leah and Jan are fabulous resources. And I wouldn't be here if those two weren't part of our team because I think I would not be here anymore. So, but yeah, feel free to, you know, use your own judgment. First meeting, let us know. But if you want to partake, that's absolutely fine. So I'll leave that up to you. Okay. All right. Now let's get going. Okay. Okay. I'll call the meeting to order before we get started. Let's introduce everyone. Sorry, I've done part of this. I'm Sandy Brock. Travis has introduced himself. Amara has identified that she is here. And so, Emma, could you just let me know that you can hear me and we'll go on from there.

Yep, present. I can hear you.

Thank you very much, Leah. I don't know if I already went through you again.

You did, but I'm still here.

Oh, that's good. Please don't leave. Jan, present. Thank you. Okay, now we'll get going here. This open meeting of the Conservation Commission is being conducted remotely via Zoom, pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12th, 2020 order, as most recently extended on March 28th, 2025. Access information for the public has been provided on the town website. This meeting is being recorded. Please remember to mute your phone or your computer when you are not speaking. This is done on the phone by pressing star six. As chair, I will introduce each speaker on the agenda. Please note that you will not have screen sharing privileges, but staff can display any visuals per your queue. During periods of public comment, participants must use the raise hand icon in the Zoom menu bar to indicate they would like to speak. This is done on the phone by pressing star nine, then star six to unmute when you are called on. Participants who raise their hand will be recognized one at a time and it will be promoted to speak finally each vote taken will be conducted by roll call vote as a reminder commission is concerned with state and town wetlands and stormwater regulations concerns outside this purview need to be addressed to the appropriate boards for example road conditions must be addressed with the select board and traffic concerns must be addressed with the planning board all right looks like we can just start right off

Yeah, nothing has a time certain this evening, and all three are actually continuances. So if you want to just go right through them, we can.

Sounds good. You picked the right night, Emma. You get to hear me talk for a lot, and then we get to have a quick chat and say goodbye. So here we go. All right. Pursuant to the Massachusetts Wildlife Protection Act and the Braxton Wildlife Protection Bylaw, Conservation Commission hold public hearing to act upon an abbreviated notice of resource area delineation for 104 Creeper Hill Road. The applicant has requested a continuance to? July 14th. To July 14th. Anything else to add to this, Leah, before we? Nope. Okay, so again, I'm just going to go around just because it's Emma's first time here. Amara and Travis kind of know the process, but Emma, do you have any questions? Because what we'll do is there's really no discussions that's been requested for continuance. So we'll have a motion in a second. Let me know if you have any questions.

I think my only question is just point of order. I would have to abstain because I wasn't present for the prior hearings for this, correct?

Actually, was this on a prior hearing?

Yeah, they're all continued from before, but I don't know that it matters for just voting to continue, but it matters at the end when you actually vote on the project.

And my understanding is because you're new, it's not like if I miss a meeting, I can go back and look at it and then still vote if I've been involved in it. But as a new member, you have to be present at the first meeting. So thank you for bringing that up. uh okay so i've i've read the um uh introduction for this particular uh yeah abbreviate uh notice of resource delineation they requested a continuance do i have um a motion to continue to uh july 14th i'll move to continue the hearing for 104 creeper hill road to july 14th thank you do i have a second second We have a motion and a second. We do a roll call vote as we are remote. Travis? Yes. Emma? Yes. Amira?

Yes.

I am also a yes. The motion carries. All right. Next one up. Pursuant to the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act and the Grafton Wetlands Protection Bylaw, conservation commission will hold a public hearing to act upon a notice of intent and application for Grafton Wetlands Bylaw permit for the construction of the geothermal trenches in for a single-family house at 66 Brigham Hill Road. The applicant has requested a continuance to July 14th. Do I have a motion?

I'll move to continue the hearing for 66 Brigham Hill Road to July 14th.

Do I have a second?

I'll second that.

I have a motion and a second. Roll call vote. Amira?

Yes.

Emma?

Yes.

Travis? Yes. I am also a yes. The motion carries. Next one up. Pursuant to the Massachusetts Wetlands Protection Act and the Grafton Wetlands Protection By-law, Conservation Commission will hold a public hearing to act upon a notice of intent and application for Grafton Wetlands By-law permit for the construction of a single family house at 21 Meadowbrook Road. Do I have a motion to, excuse me, the applicant has requested a continuance to July 14th. Do I have a motion to continue the hearing to July 14th?

I'll continue the hearing for 21 Meadowbrook Road to July 14th.

Do I have a second?

Second.

We'll call vote. Amira? Yes. Emma? Yes. Travis? Yes. I am also yes. The motion carries. Jan, is there anyone in the public on the line?

Yes, we do have some attendees.

Okay. So I reach out to the attendees. All of our hearings for tonight have been requested to be continued. If you have any questions about your particular one, all of them being continued to July 14th. But if you do have any questions about the process, or just want to ask a question, we can't talk about the specific application, but if we can give you guidance on what happens next, if you'd like, just please raise your hand. We're happy just to let you know what's going on with these continuances. All right. Jan, let me know if anyone raises their hand.

There are nothing yet.

Okay, great. All right. Okay. So next up is the meeting minutes. I would say, Emma, because you weren't, not that you weren't in attendance of the previous meeting minute, but you weren't part of the commission, I would abstain from that. And then the rest of us to review that. So for the meeting minutes for June 9th of 2026, does anyone have any comments, questions, or suggestions for revisions? I'll start with Amira.

Um, no questions. I think this is the one that I wasn't at.

Uh, let's see. Uh, correct. Correct. So, yeah. So you can, if you, even if you don't attend because you're not ruling on anything, you can actually accept the meeting minutes. If you don't feel comfortable, just the stain. It's fine.

I watched it anyway.

So, okay.

I was there.

There you go. Sounds good. Um, Okay. So do I have a motion to, oh, I'm sorry. I should go around. Travis, did you have any questions?

No.

Okay. And neither did I. And just for Emma's FYI, our staff is usually really good. We're all caught up with our minutes and we usually get them as part of our package. So you have an opportunity to review them ahead of time. So thank you, Jan. And thank you, Leah. So having said that, do I have a motion to approve the June 9th, 2026 meeting minutes?

So moved.

Do I have a second?

Second.

So a motion is second. I will go through everyone. So Amira?

Yes.

Emma, you can just abstain. Yep, I abstain. Thank you. Travis?

Yes.

And I'm also a yes. The motion carries and the minutes are approved. All right. Minor change requests, Leah.

Yeah, so the last two things pertain to Highfields. So we have Joe Antonellis in attendees. Jan, if you just want to give him the ability to speak in case he wants to chime in on anything. But if we start with the minor change request.

Hey, Leah, before you go any further, I've got to recuse myself on all things high fields, right?

Yeah.

Thank you, Travis. Is there anything else on the agenda tonight?

No.

Enjoy your evening.

Thanks. Nice to meet you, Emma. See you all in a couple weeks.

All right. Thanks.

All right. Okay, so... So the minor change request, we issued a determination of applicability a little while ago for them to realign one of the golf course holes and do some restoration work over there. So they've finished that work. Art's been out. He checked that area as well as the wetland replication that they had to make up for for the subdivision. Both have been successful. They don't need to do any replanting, but there was some patches of knotweed at the whole realignment spot. So Art's suggestion was to ask the applicant to get a quote for two seasons of treatment of the knotweed and hang on to that amount from the bond that we're holding. They went ahead and got that quote. It's $1,350. So one item we need to figure out is the bond and how much we want to hold on to. But we also need a vote as a minor change to allow this knotweed treatment to happen because it wasn't part of the original scope. And then I can pause there if you'd like and we can just handle that or I can talk about the next item as a whole package.

So I'll just check in. Amira, do you have any questions on that?

I don't have any questions yet.

Okay. And Emma, if you're going to recuse, that's fine. I just want to make sure you include it. Because even though you're not going to vote and so forth because you weren't here, you're still part of the quorum that's here. So that's fine. I don't think I have any questions. I mean, we have to make a motion, Leah, to hold that particular bond. How much is left with the bond?

So the bond we're holding right now, which was basically our insurance for the plantings of the wetland replication and the whole realignment, it's about $13,500. I put the number in my agent report. It's $13,628.81 because it gains a little interest. Yep. So we should at least retain the $1,350, but figuring out the bond amount kind of comes into play in the next item. So for now, if you'd like to just vote on the minor change itself, and then we can return to the bond conversation.

Okay. So we can do that separately. So I'd like to kind of just go through the minor change, and the minor change is really just to do that work separately. for the knotweed. So do I have a motion to approve the minor change to be able to take care of the knotweed invasive plants? Do I have a motion?

So moved.

We have a motion. Do I have a second? Second. Okay. So a motion and a second. We'll call vote just on that. Amira?

Yes.

Emma? Yes. And I am also a yes. So the minor change is approved. Next item, Leah.

Okay. So Highfields, the subdivision, is also still seeking their certificate of compliance for their last file number. Okay. We've talked about it on and off for a little while. They had some homework to do in the background. So where things stand now, the remaining item... is the conservation restriction that they need to put in place on the open space. It's been submitted to EEA for review. We don't accept and sign it until after EEA finishes their review. The applicant's proposing recording a copy of the restriction as it stands now. as kind of a temporary holdover measure, which would create one of those 30-year restrictions like we've seen a couple times recently. And then intends to re-record the full CR once it's approved by the EEA. They're trying to keep the ball rolling forward toward acceptance at the next town meeting. I would suggest if the commission's open to that, we need to capture... the re-recording in an ongoing condition. So we make sure that they come back with that later. And I would also suggest probably holding onto more money from that bond we're holding. So we have a little bit of leverage to ensure that that happens. Um, so that's, that's one piece of the conversation is the conservation restriction. Um, we still gotta go back to the bond and how much we're releasing or not. And the last piece, um, Jan, if you could just pull up Jeff's last comment letter, the one on the as-built review. His comment number seven, he called out a bunch of spots on the CR plan that doesn't appear to have monumentation. So the commission just needs to decide what you think about, you know, do bounds need to go there? Are we satisfied with what is there or not? Those are really the three pieces that are left.

Okay. So as far as... and i'm not an attorney so i don't know the answer to this i'm just going to ask the question so you make a uh you record the you know the the open space for a 30-year time frame and i am not a again not an attorney and then they come back and they say well we'll do the permanent one and then you have the transfer of land to the town correct or to the no to the uh where's the Who's going to end up owning the parcel of land, the open space?

They're still going to own it because it's got the golf course on it, that they're going to own and operate. We would just be the holder of the conservation restriction. We do have Joe Antonellis online. He is the applicant's attorney, and he has his hand raised. I don't know if you're ready to take him or not.

I will in a moment because this next question will probably help him to answer that question. So I don't have a problem with that. I'm more worried about just the legal ease of putting something in for 30 years and then putting in something right afterwards for, and I don't know what takes precedent from a legal standpoint. I don't know what supersedes. So that's kind of my question. So if Joe wants to, if you want to promote him and he can unmute, let me give you, give you the opportunity to give your legal kind of take on it and Okay. Be my guest. Yes, you are. Thank you.

Well, good evening, everybody, and welcome to the commission.

If you could just give your name and address. Oh, I apologize.

No problem. My name is Joseph Antonalis. I'm an attorney in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. My office is on Worcester Road in Framingham, Mass., and I have been involved in this project since its inception. and one of the reasons we're having this conversation is at the very beginning when we began the process of building the golf course we had the opportunity to pick one or two ways to go about it and um it was i lobbied for the conservation restriction and lear is correct the property will be burdened by the conservation restriction it will be owned by mcgill associates incorporate or or some other entity uh whatever but it is it the the property the 221 plus or minus acres that are subjected to the conservation restriction will be burdened by that restriction. Now, the question that's been raised is, restrictions in Massachusetts are frowned upon. Opposing a restriction on your property where it can't be built on is frowned upon as a long-term effect on the availability of property. And so the conservation restriction statute in the Commonwealth allows it to be in perpetuity. And the document that I submitted to you and the document that has since been submitted to the Commonwealth has specific language in it that it is to be set forth in perpetuity. Now, it's the Commonwealth signature on that document that creates the situation where it goes beyond the 30 years and makes it impossible or the grantor, which would be today, the McGill Associates, to undo the conservation restriction without legislative approval. But for the next 30 years, we can't do anything anyway, because you will control what happens with that property as it relates to whether or not there's a restriction on it. What's happened... is we submitted it to the Commonwealth, and much to my surprise, I was told that the process of reviewing it is going to take three or four months, and I was really, really surprised by that because this is a restriction that does not include any provision for the grantor, which is McGill, to obtain any tax relief or other benefits as a result of the conservation. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but there are conservation restrictions, especially those put on to protect habitat, where sometimes a person who has large acreage of land will place a conservation restriction on the property to protect habitat, and they will actually get paid for that restriction. So there's consideration paid. Same thing with historic buildings. Sometimes there's consideration paid for those. In this particular set of circumstances, there are no federal or state funds or local funds involved. There is no benefit to McGill by placing the conservation restriction on it. The benefit to McGill was the ability to build the golf course. So what I'm trying to do, and again, we've been at this now since 1996, And the reason the conservation restriction had to wait till the end was simply because we couldn't get it on record unless and until all the roadways and residential lots were completed, even more importantly than completing the golf course, because obviously we couldn't affect someone's residential lot and or the streets and ways. Those have been completed, so now is the time to move forward with the conservation restriction. And again, I used the form that was provided to me by the Commonwealth, made no changes to it. In fact, added a few things that are more restrictive on the land, including giving the Conservation Commission, its agents and et cetera, the ability to park in the parking lot at the clubhouse, which is not part of the conservation restriction. So I put that in on my own because I had a conversation in the past with prior people at the Conservation Commission that we would make the parking lot available if, as in when, anyone from the town and or the conservation commission had to come and make inspections because that is, in fact, you would be the body to do that. So again, it's a very comprehensive document. And what I anticipated was recording the conservation restriction plans and this restriction. And then once the state approved it, simply re-recording the document in what we would call the confirmatory conservation restriction and the preparatory language in the confirmation confirmatory one would say that this document is recorded to confirm the prior document, but was done so because it now bears the signature of the of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and it would be therefore subject to being in effect in perpetuity. So that's where I wanted to go. I recognize that, you know, it's it's a bit of an ask. But again, I think that the McGill family has always done what they were supposed to up there. There've been a couple little bumps in the road, but over the 20 years, I think we've developed and we continued an excellent relationship, both with the planning board and your commission. We don't think it's an outrageous request, and I'm more than willing to leave some money in the bond to make sure that we come back. And again, I'll just say this to you, it's not related to the process, but I've been at this particular project for 20 years. I'm pushing, or I'm over, I'm 76 years old. I still work and I still like my work, but I'd sure like to finish up the high fields. So I would tell you, Sandra, that I expect to be back to see you early this fall when hopefully I get an update from the Commonwealth that we're all set. So that's the story. I don't know if it's a good explanation or not, But that's the reality of it. I think, you know, I don't come in and make misrepresentations to this commission. We're trying to get it done. Again, I was really, really surprised. I went so far as to ask the person at the Commonwealth whether they needed more funding because I was just shocked that they're that busy that it was going to take four or five months to review a 15-page document.

So it's not that they're so busy. They are busy. It is the reduction in staff. I mean, across all the environmental agencies have been reduced pretty significantly.

That's what I was told.

Yeah. And we've, yeah. So that's my understanding. I don't work there, but that's my understanding.

And Sandra, that's what I was told. I had a pleasant conversation with the woman in there. And, you know, it's the kind of conversation that you and I are having now. And she did say that their staff has been significantly reduced. That's when I asked her if she wanted them. wanted me to call my state rep and try and get them more funding.

Yeah, good luck on that one. So really my concern is not so much that this goes in. My concern is always, what are we leaving for the next folks that are on the commission? So that, you know, so, you know, it's fine if it happens in the fall or whatever. That's, you know, a reasonable time. And even if it happened next year, it's a reasonable time. But if all of a sudden it's 20 years down the road, I will be very, very retired. But a lot of other folks may not still be on the commission. So I'm always concerned about things that can slip because we inherited a bunch of stuff like that. So, yeah, so that's my concern.

I understand your concern. And again, I think that's why if we hold some money in the bond, and again, I hope that my client and I have developed a significant relationship with your commission and that we would be afforded this opportunity. We'd like to get the streets accepted in the fall. And this is the last piece that we need to do that.

Okay. And from my perspective, and I haven't even been on the commission since you guys started this, so. So I get it. You've been doing at this for a very long time. From my perspective, I don't think this is a huge ask. I want to make sure everyone understands it. And holding some of the bond, that is absolutely fine. But let me go around to the commissioners and find out what their kind of take is on this. So, Mara, do you have any questions or just your take on this? Is this too big of an ask?

So I am not sure I fully understand.

Okay. So let me, I'll attempt to explain it and then Leah can jump in and so forth. So generally on a project like this, a part of this type of development is that you have a certain amount of open space that will be held under the conservation restrictions. So it's never developed in the future. Obviously it's a lot, usually a lot of wetlands and so forth, but there's a specific process through the permitting, through planning board and through conservation that this is all done. So it's kind of, you know, you can increase certain densities, but you have to have so much open space protected for forever, right? And no one is arguing that. No one's arguing the limits of the conservation restriction. That's all been, Leah, correct me if I'm not correct, that's all been in the original design plans. It also has to be recorded. All those types of things have to happen. A big part of that is there's a standard procedure through the state. And then it's a lot of legalese. The first time you get to read one of those, you'll enjoy it very much. And this one here allows certain uses in the golf course and different things like that. So there's a whole process and there's a standard kind of CR that's used. And then that all gets put together by the applicant. And then once they get to, as you heard here, once you get to the point where they're looking to get streets accepted because they're completely done, stormwater's done, all those type of things, there was what we talked about previously, the realignment of one of the holes because of some happy chainsaw folks that kind of went into some of the protected area. So That's kind of where we're at. So from my perspective, nothing is changing in what was originally approved. And Leah, tell me if I'm wrong. So that's been constant, that the open space is still the open space. It's still going to be a conservation restriction. The other part of that, Amira, is that when you have a conservation restriction, that cannot be held by the owner of the property. It has to be another party. In this case, it's the Conservation Commission. So when land is donated to the town, typically we have the conservation restriction underneath a local, basically, land use, open, I'm sorry, I'm going, all right, land trust. So we have the CR underneath the local land trust. And so we've done that a whole bunch of times. So it's a permitting mechanism. It's a great way to have open space maintained. It's part of the whole process. So we're at the end now. And so what we're trying to do is they're looking to get something very specific. We have nothing to do with that part of it, i.e. having the roadways approved. That is planning board. That's not us. So we have nothing. Our stuff is just what Leah was talking about. It's that last golf hole, some of the restoration work that was done because of someone was a little bit off on what they were supposed to be doing. And then there was just this recent inspection where they found some of the invasives. And so that's what the first part of the discussion goes. Big picture is we're going ahead with it. My questions had to do with, I don't want to stick this with someone in 10 years because it didn't get done. I totally understand the backup at DEP. A lot of consultants are running into that. So that is what it is right now. And in this case here, we have been doing a lot of this for many, many years. So did I confuse you or did I actually explain it?

No, that helps a lot.

Yeah. And so my kind of question was, I want to make sure that this is done in a timely manner. What Leah said is, hey, we'll keep more of the bond. So there's an incentive to actually take the updated sign by the Commonwealth. That signature then makes it perfect, make it forever. And then that gets recorded. So when you record something for $250 or whatever the present cost is, there's incentive to do that because they don't have anything else to do other than receive that signed copy back. But once they do that, then they can get whatever, $2,000, $5,000, whatever it is that we determine we want to hold. And so we're basically trying to incentivize that. the fact that, hey, when you do get it signed by the Commonwealth, it gets put into the Registry of Deeds, and then you've got a clean record forever. So that's kind of the conversation. I know, Emma, if you have any questions on that. You're muted.

No questions, I don't think. Well, my question, I guess, would be related to the bond. Is there um a lifetime i guess on the bond like is there a point at which the bond expires or expires or yeah is that just something we would hold in perpetuity if for whatever reason wasn't satisfied my understanding leah can kind of chime in is it is up to the conservation commission to release that bond and we do it through a vote at the commission

So it doesn't get released until we vote on it. So that should, yeah. All right. Anything else we should know about this? From me? Yeah. From your perspective as the agent, and you'll have to track this.

I don't think so. We just need to figure out the amount if we're holding back funds. And you indicated there was how many thousands of dollars? It's currently $13,628. And you have so much for the... Yeah, if we're hanging on to the $13.50 that... Hang on, I've got to find my calculator. So that leaves $12,278.81.

I'm into round numbers. So I think it's really just figuring out. I'll go back to the attorney. And again, we can pick a number out. Do you have any specific amount that you're looking at? I need it to be an incentive to do it.

Well, thank you. Appreciate that. My thought was to take the bond. You need $1,350 for the Japanese knotweed. That's recognized. If you added $5,000 for the conservation restriction, that would make it $6,350, which is basically half of what you have now.

I like the way you do your numbers.

And I can represent to you that that is acceptable to the applicant.

All right. Thank you. Amira, do you have any comments on withholding the $63.50, which is $5,000 for the conservation restriction?

No. I guess I wouldn't know what the amount should be.

It's an incentive. It's something so that they do it. So you want it large enough for them to say, yeah, I just got to walk down to the registry of deeds, spend a couple hundred bucks and get it recorded. And I just go back to Concom and I get $5,000 back. So that's the incentive part. So it's a judgment call. So that's kind of there.

Sandra, may I say something in that regard? Yes. And I appreciate the concern that the commission has. I might not be saying this if it was a client that wasn't totally tied into the town of Grafton. The McGill family have been in Grafton their whole lives. Jay McGill and Beth Shropshire, who are the McGills, both live in Grafton. Jay is involved in a construction project in Grafton. They're not going anywhere. And they're not a company that's come into Grafton for the purpose of developing and then leaving. This has been family property that's been developed. And again, that's why I feel comfortable with the amount that I suggested.

I appreciate that. So Emma, do you have any questions, comments, the amount? Does that seem reasonable? And again, we don't need specific answers, but just let me know any questions or comments.

No questions. I think that amount seems reasonable to me.

Okay. Sounds good. All right. Now back to Leah who gets to tell us what we have to do for this. So we don't need, we don't need anyone from the public. because we're out of actual hearing, so that's fine. We're just talking about wrapping things up.

The first thing that we need is a vote to reduce the bond to $6,350, refunding the rest. Someone can say, so moved.

I would suggest that.

So moved.

Do I have a second? Second. Okay, we have a motion and second. So the first motion is to reduce the bond. And so, Amira? Yes or no?

Oh, sorry, yes.

That's okay. Emma? Yes. I am also a yes, that motion carries. The second one, Leah?

Um, to, to just interject before we return to the larger conversation, did anyone have any thoughts on this comment that's on the screen? Number seven. So it's a, it's a list of spots that the conservation restriction plans don't show monumentation being in the field.

Oh, okay. Yep. Yep. Okay.

So, and Jeff defers to the commission. So I just need you guys thoughts.

Okay. So what was the monumentation? What type of monumentation? Is it iron bars? Is it stone bounds? What is on the plans, I guess, is what I'm asking.

I think it's stone.

Joe, do you know? I believe we went to the planning board at the time and we had a modification to use iron pins, I believe.

Okay. Okay. So one of the questions by you saying that is, are you going to put them in anyways because the planning board has already required them?

We went back to the planning board and modified where they were going. And again, I think that we, I'll be honest with you, I'm not completely positive on this one. So I thought they were done based on my last conversation with Byron Andrews.

Okay. So from my perspective, I want to be on the same page as the planning board. We do a pretty good job of making sure we coordinate everything. So I want to make sure if they made amendments that we have the same information to make similar amendments. I look at corners. I mean, you have a little bit of an overlap. Obviously, planning board's going to give property line. They'll do restrictions. And they'll do all the right-of-ways. But it kind of overlaps with us with the restrictions for the conservation restriction. I just don't, I don't know if you have any information on that kind of going back and forth between planning board and conservation.

I don't know about changes through planning. Um, I think Jeff's comment is just going off of what's shown on the conservation restriction plans. I don't think it means he walked out there. There's a chance there's more in the field than are on the plans. I mean, we could hold off and ask for some field verification. It's just that those physical markers in the field help going forward when we have to do an annual CR inspection.

Yeah. so yeah so i think for the um for the the the cr markers whatever it is you know that's something we just want to make sure we're on the same page i don't think it changes a whole lot uh go ahead um let's just make a suggestion why don't we add a thousand dollars to the bond and figure it and we'll get it done um whichever way it happens do you think that's what it costs for a surveyor crew to go out there for a day

I think that everything's been surveyed to the nth degree out there. Right. Yeah. So I think it would be just going out to the points where they're shown if in fact they're necessary.

Right. So the short answer is if it's on the plans, it's necessary unless you go for a change in the plans. And for my concern, that's both for conservation, but also for planning goals. And so the one thing I don't want to do is get different between us and the planning board where they have one set of locations and they shouldn't. And Leah, you went out to the site. Did you not see them or was that based on Jeff?

We didn't walk the whole CR boundary. Okay. This is his as-built plan review letter.

Okay. So he received as-built plans. He looked at it, compared it to the design plans, and there are not as many monuments, whether they're iron pipe or whatever they are.

In this letter, yes. He does also do a separate construction completeness letter. That's from being in the field. But as part of that letter, this whole boundary wasn't walked.

Okay. And I have no problem using a stamped – survey plan by a registered land surveyor as evidence that something is there. I don't have a problem. It goes with the stamp and they're responsible for it. It's more like if they're not the same, they're not the same. So, you know, if when you compare the two and the original had more than the other, I think this is probably something that can get resolved pretty quickly. Let me first just check in with Amira and Emma just to see if, Amira, do you have any questions on this?

No questions. I agree with what you're saying about trying to stay in sync with the planning board.

Sounds great. Thank you. Emma, do you have any questions or comments?

I think I'm in the same line of thinking as you and Amira on this.

Okay. um so i'll go back to the attorney um i think this is something you hopefully can resolve if it's all been located already and if there's a letter from our peer reviewer that says hey i compared these and these aren't showing up on the plans are they there or not there and if they're there then someone needs to make a revision and they need to stamp it and that's good and they don't only need to stamp it for us they need to stamp it for the planning board

And Sandra, I can tell you this has been a point of discussion over the years with the planning board relative to this. And I can represent to you again. That's why I suggested if you want to put a little bit more pressure on me, if you want to grab another $1,000 and I'll go out and get you the answers. And if they need to go in, they'll go in. I'm not going to leave it hanging for 20 odd pounds.

Right, yeah. It's just that if they're not in, you're going to get charged a lot more than $1,000 to put them in.

Oh, I understand that, yes.

Yeah. OK. Amira, do you have any comments on that approach of basically retaining more of the bond so that this also gets one of the things that they need to do before they get released?

So just, I don't disagree with it. I was just curious. if we were to not accept the bond? Why is a bond being proposed, I guess?

So the bond was proposed a long time ago.

I think for this specific thing, for this.

OK, I got the question. So it's the same reason for the $5,000. There's nothing like a little incentive of money. to have someone clean up something as opposed. And then the other part of that is, you know, with the bond, you can always hold it and actually hire someone to do it, which doesn't quite match up with this. But again, it's both us and the planning board. So we have to make sure we're all on the same page.

And so is this in the interest of keeping like this project moving? Is that what the...

Yeah, pretty much. The goal is to keep it going, meaning we get the answers. So that's what retaining some of the bond is.

Can I add something?

Yes, please.

So they're aiming to have us issue the certificate of compliance. Once you do that, we lose the leverage of that mechanism. So that's why in this case, we're trying to rely on holding a bond. for these outstanding items so they can have their certificate of compliance and continue to pursue road acceptance at town meeting. But we still have an insurance policy, if you will, to get the last few things cleaned up.

Got it. That's what I was trying to understand, like, is there a certain type of thing that this is trying to get done, and then that's why we're going to Bondra as opposed to just having them do this and then come back.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's like when we put the CR and let them, you know, put it into the registry, that's saying, okay, that's fine, but we really expect to get it signed by the state, and therefore that becomes permanent. So that's, again, to what Leah was saying, is the incentive to hold that bond. And we don't have to hold up the certificate of compliance. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Thank you.

Any questions?

I guess my question would just be about the amount because your point, Sandy, isn't the point of a bond if the applicant or owner doesn't do what the bond is for, then the town has the ability to pay to get that done, but $1,000 would not cover.

No, I agree with you. I think I think the way to do this, because if you do this 6350, and you just say, this is for these three items, and you have to complete each one of these items, then if, you know, as far as we have a quote for, you know, the invasive removal, and then a kind of a random 5000 for them spending a very little amount to have the CR, you know, recorded, and then you have The additional just for the doing the property markers. So I think that, you know, when you take the whole thing together, I think it's more than enough. But you're right. That's a good kind of comment. Yeah. Okay.

No further comments from me then?

Thanks. Leah, anything wrong with that rationale?

Are you wanting to change the amount to $73.50? Correct. Okay. We can do that. I think you just want amend your motion from earlier.

Okay. So based on this last conversation, we're looking to amend the previous motion to include an additional $1,000 regarding the regarding the property markers, those three items that we're talking about is the property markers, having the CR recorded and having the invasive removed all go together and they'll get the 7350 once they complete all of those. So do I have an amendment to the motion previously done?

I move to to approve the amendment to the motion. Is that what I'm supposed to be doing?

So yeah, basically you move to do the amendment to the previous, yeah, to the previous motion.

All right, so I move to make the amendment to the previous motion, increasing the amount to, what was it, $73.50?

$73.50, yep. The most important part is William and Jan will actually write all this stuff down and get it right in the minutes. So, all right. Do we have a motion? Do we have a second? Second. All right. Very good. We have a motion and a second. Leah, did we miss anything?

Uh, in that regard, no, but we have the last item is just if you're wanting to issue the certificate of compliance.

Right. That's a different discussion, but yeah, let's get to that next. Um, I'll go back to, I'm sorry if you go by Joseph or Joe, um, Joe. Okay. If, um, if that is, you know, that approach of saying you've got three things to do, here's what we're holding for the bond. And once you get those done, you get the bond back.

Right. And it's my understanding that, again, as we've said, that's the surety for the issuance of the certificate of compliance, which will allow us to move forward. And we have a few things to clean up with the planning board, too. So we've still got some work to do.

Gotcha. I understand that. Don't take this wrong way. What you have to do with the planning board is your business.

Yeah.

I don't really want to get involved in anything. The only thing I don't want to do is have different approach or something different between the two departments. Yes.

Thank you, Sandra. I agree with you.

All right. So for this amendment, let's do a roll call vote. Amira.

Yes.

Emma. Yes. Yes. And I am also a yes, that motion carries. And now the last one, Leah, if you want to do kind of what your recommendation was based on the request for certificate of compliance.

So I was just going to say make sure to capture in an ongoing condition that they return with the EEACR for recording. Okay. Other than the ongoing conditions that already exist in the permit, that would be a new one.

Gotcha. And that obviously has hopefully a sunset date when they actually do it. But until they do it, it's an ongoing. Got it. Okay. Anything else from your perspective? I don't think so. Okay. So next one. Can I have a motion to issue the certificate of compliance with the addition of an ongoing condition that the bond would not be released until the EEA conservation restriction is recorded at the registry of deeds. Is that pretty much it, Leah? Can you repeat that? Okay. Adding an ongoing condition. that the applicant will have to, I'm sorry, I messed it up the first time. The applicant will have to record the signed CR from the Commonwealth at the Registry of Deeds, and then that's it, right? Because it's not part of the bond. The bond is a separate bond.

Yeah, that'll do.

Okay. All right. So do I have a motion? So moved. Do I have a second? Second. We have a motion and a second. Roll call vote. Amira?

Yes.

Emma? Yes. I am also a yes. The motion carries. Good luck with getting everything wrapped up.

And thank you to all the commission members. Appreciate the time that you've given me tonight. And thank you to Leah for all your cooperation. Really appreciate it.

Yeah. And we don't have to see you again, hopefully.

So that would be great. That's okay. Okay. Thank you.

All right.

Have a good night. Thank you. You too. Bye-bye.

All right. We, anything else? That's all I got. Okay. I have a quick question. Certainly.

So the Lake Consigament Commission meeting is tomorrow. I checked the agenda. That doesn't really seem to be anything relevant to Grafton ComCom on it. Was there anything that you guys wanted to, to share with LPC. I was hoping to not go tomorrow.

I mean, if all they're talking about is, you know, motorized, I think it's like the boaters and the motors, the motors and the, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I mean, I don't have a problem. We, is there anything on the, um, you know, staff side that needs to be discussed with them? So, and then to Emma, what it is, is that, um, you'll get to, um, partake in this at some point. So we have several different other, I'll just say committees that people volunteer for. So Amara is on the Lake Quinsigamont because Lake Quinsigamont in Worcester, guess where it flows to? Right through Grafton to the Quinsigamont River. So we have a seat on their, you know, on their commission or whatever they call it. And so we have, it's a voting member The problem is majority of things that are done has nothing to do with Grafton. We get involved when they're doing invasive removal or doing something else so we know what's going on, what's going downstream. But most of the time we don't really need to be there unless Amira really feels like she wants to go. She's been a few times. And so from our perspective, You know, I don't if she doesn't need to be there, I would say just reach out, reach out to the, you know, to them to like quit segment and just say, hey, I reviewed the, you know, agenda that doesn't appear to be anything Grafton related. you know, will not be attending. Please let us know if there's anything that's brought up, something like that.

So I sent him a message. I just was waiting to see if you guys had anything. So I'll, I'll follow up with him.

Yeah, I, I, I, that's how we've been doing it. And for Emma's kind of thing we have, and I'm going to mess up. So we have someone on open space. That's Travis, correct? And then I'm on the CPC, so I'm representing that. And every year we go through about who wants to do what and that kind of good stuff. The next thing when we get the whole gang together, we'll talk about really the makeup of our commission and if anyone else wants to be chair. I don't mind doing it, but I'm not, you know, I'd be happy to step sideways and let someone else do it. I'm pretty flexible that way. Anything else, Leah? Nope. Okay. So Emma, if you have any questions, please feel free to reach out to me. Feel free to reach out to Leah or Jan. They probably know more than me. So that's always a good source. And if you have any questions, please let me know. If you feel uncomfortable, you don't have to you know, vote on something like this whole conversation on Highfield. Okay. That started 10 years before I was on the commission. So, I mean, it's an ongoing, it's been, I don't know, 20 something years or something. It's so we all have to kind of deal with that. And Travis, cause he lives down there always recuses himself. So other than that, we have one final motion and I bet you America knows what it is.

I move to adjourn the meeting.

Thank you. Do I have a second?

Second.

So we have a motion and a second to adjourn. We'll call vote. Amira?

Yes.

Emma? Yes. I am also a yes. Emma, if you have any questions, again, feel free to reach out.