Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

world. Okay. Yeah, she said to say [Music]

um I messaged Chris. We were talking about something else. Stanford. Yeah.

Yeah. I didn't know who it was. I saw picture floating around. I was like, "Oh, so like we had the kids out had all the water had all the water going and I didn't know.

It was fun." It was a fun. Oh my gosh. You want to bring them next year? You want to welcome them, too? Yeah. Bring them. They would love that. Absolutely. I don't know how to think about it. I know how to think of it. No, that's okay. Yeah, I remember that. A will be old enough next year, too. Trust

What's up, did you say again? Do

you have a front? Yeah. Thanks. Usually I cut my buttons up here. Oh, there they are. It was hiding. I think there's one she I think she got that was just the old nonsense. You guys got the right one via email though, right?

Um, yeah, we did that. Okay. Um, it's Wednesday, July 16th at 6:05. This is Georgetown Planning Commission. I'm gonna call roll. Kathleen H, Alex, Christian Dixon, Georgia Kofz, no longer on the planning commission, Chris Stanford, Natasha Jackson, present. Shane Henry, present, and Jeff Golden.

And myself, Jer. On the agenda, we have training for commissioners and we're going to discuss the comprehensive plan. And I'm going to add the a little bit of audience assistance. Miss Cindy, start up. We'll start with that. Yeah, we'll start with audience.

Good. Thank you. Um, my name is uh Cindy Neely and I have worked as discussion projects coordinator for the town of Georgetown for more years than I care to think about. One of those projects was the development of our gateway and actually 23 years ago we came when there was no roundabout, there were no sidewalks and there were no bridges, no street lights, there was no seven street bridge even. We came up with a lovely plan and uh we took us 20 years but we did plan. Then people started building down further. Our plan went to 15th Street. So what we basically did was just sort of mentally extending and we now have the sidewall continuing to go down there, the lights continuing to go down there. The thing that we didn't do in back then was we did not take a look at what would happen to the town property on the west side of Argentine Street. This being Argentine Street down there. Um the town owns all this that's in purple as you're heading down. That's of course on the left on the west side between the um it's between the frontage road our Argentine north project. Our Argentine north project is right here.

Y

and this is the street and this is the interstate and the helipads there the you know the parking lots there road and bridges are there but we never took a look at we never incorporated it in our design plan. Um and so our new administrator said to me, um we really should incorporate that in the plan. And he asked me to reach out to the folks who did this which happened to be THK and associates and say say how would you like to do a little design session and see how people feel and what they would like to see. Obviously there are some givens down there. The helellipad may be one of the givens. There not very many places we can move the helellipad to. I mean, we can move it up and down that area. Um, and and who knows about parking, but the net result of this is THK is made sure they'd be happy to come up and do a design chet. And so, they plan to arrive on July 30th at 6:00 p.m. at the community center. It's a Wednesday. Um, and they have a map that they've done which is actually better than I have.

Is it more of a is it a plan set or is it an idea? It's it's idea gather. They have a they have a whole, you know, they'll have three tables that'll have a big layout and say, "Okay, here are some thoughts. What other thoughts do you have?" It's it's a plan session and um we have sort of made that arrangement and so they're online to do that. And what time is this on the 30th? It's 6:00 and it's community center.

And yes, it's called a design char. So what that means is somebody throws thing out there and everybody stands around they I don't know you probably been in half dozen of those kinds of things before and gives you best looks it over and gives funds for the various sort of ideas. Um we we do have I'm not going to say we have money left over but we do have a little bit of a fund still associated with Argentine North. I think the dealing is that that um given we've made one side of the street look very passible and and nice it would be nice if we did the same to the other side of the street. Also a big consideration then is um trying to do some kind of not a shield but but trees something to sort of define us away from the state because the interstate is so trees would be nice

there's so president so anyway um this is a wide openen discussion that's the way we started this years years ago was city, you know, put a map on the table. Can we just build like a 30 foot concrete wall all the way down from Plume Pass so that way we don't hear the traffic noise anymore? Or I want to convince the county or somebody to stay up all night at least one night. We now have a muffler law. I know we do. And they're not listening. They don't listen. Well, it's not I don't even see any signs for it at the

end. But but it's there and but the truckers all talk to each other so much. My figuring is if we spent a couple of nights because the guys who are between about 3:30 and 5 in the morning that you really But where's there's no I I I all night long for do I but it's the early morning that just until I fall asleep. There's no enforcement. So what good is it? Well, I mean, that's a common issue. I share something once, but anyway, if you would all write down Wednesday the 30th at 6 PM at the community center, we would love to see that. I will do my best to be there and I'm going to put it in my calendar. Okay.

An email minutes and stuff. Yes, the minutes will show. You won't probably get minutes until like the second week of August. So, I'd write this down in your own time. Yes, it depends. We can play one as many people and like particularly like you guys. Okay. Input. All right. Is there anything else that you have for us? Okay, that's it. Thanks, Cindy. Thank you. Thank you, Cindy. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Next up, Jerry, give us your spiel. Okay. fourth or third or fourth time. I think

I think it is the third or fourth time and I I'm I

I'll just keep quiet and let you talk. You know, I appreciate your your all being here. I'm Jerry Doll. I'm a town attorney, but you you do that. Um and I do this usually when there are new commission members. We have attorney members. Uh and so what uh you all have kind of it's sort of old school actual paper, not a PowerPoint. Um, but what I'd like to do just touch on kind of what your role is, some of the things to be concerned about and just to be aware of as you wear your plantation hat. Uh, uh, it's not on the outline, but I want to thank you all of you for the service that you provide. You know, this is my job. I really love it. I've only done local government work my whole career and I'm really devoted to it and it's it's it's something I feel strongly about. But nevertheless, it's my job and I'm paid to to do this work. But you aren't, you know, you do it for love and that occasional, you know, Kit Kat and room temperature. And that's true for all the cities. I represent a couple other cities as their city or town. is true for all the elected officials I work with. they do this work which is often very thankless because the room fills up with people or there's no decision you make that someone isn't upset with you usually you know occasionally there's a feel-good moment but very often there's a difference of opinion and and so you you're doing all this and spending your Tuesday night or Wednesday night whatever it is and and uh for no renumeration other than the occasional candy bar and I a huge respect for that and we wouldn't be able to have legitimate government at the local level without people like you that doing this work. It's it's hugely important and I

want to recognize that. Uh what I do want to do is be done by seven as I told uh I told K 45 minutes and Jake's going to keep me uh he's going to keep me honest. uh he's he's got his watch there and and uh none of these points are written in stone necessarily, but uh they are I think good good guidelines. As I say, I've done this for many many years now and try to put in this little outline things that I see out there across the state in the other communities I represent now and have over the years. So, a couple of things. What's your role as planning commission members? The statute says what it is. There's a Colorado revised statute that says that you prepare and submit a comp plan and you're going to look at comp plan later in this agenda. That's one of your jobs. And the other job is you review the matters signed by your land use code right here. And the reviews that you undertake are reszoning reviews, especially use permits that we'll talk about in a minute. basically land development by applications are what you review and typically are in the position of making recommendation board of selection. So if I want a special use permit to do some kind of outdoor events, I come to you first and you make a recommendation and you give that to the board selectman. I will say the board selectman takes the planning commission's recommendation really seriously. uh they don't always go with your recommendation because the recommendation, you know, and the buck stops not with you, go with them on land use decisions, but it's uh they always take it seriously and more often than not go with what you're going to. So, you're appointed by the board of selection. Uh I was the town attorney of the town of Silverthorn for 20 some odd years and they had a good uh practice there when they would have people

interviewing to be on their planning commission and their other commissions and the the mayor would always ask the inter the candidates, do you have the time to do this job? and the time is inclusive of not only the meetings but those damn packets that you're going to get either electronic or physically and do you have the time to actually read that stuff and be ready before the meeting. Uh, and I live in the rural world and I did it that that kind of like book club. Some people show up and they haven't read the book, you know, or they read the cliff notes. But, you know, part of the job is being prepared and being ready, not just showing up at the meetings.

And I thought that was a useful question that that mayor would always ask those candidates because I've been guilty of this. I've shown up at some council meetings without having gone through the packet very carefully and then then I get caught with the question, wow, let's ask the city attorney about the agreement that's said on page 33 of the 102 page packet. And it only takes one or two of those times to to to get the fear of God. And so I I try to be ready and you should too. And there's the reason for that.

Terry, you're an attorney. You're good at getting yourself out of those little predicaments. And as I've gotten older and greater, the older and greater you get, the more experience you have with with that. Jake's right. I try not to put myself in that spot. When I am, I thought I'd be as ashful as I get. Jake's right about that. He's right about that. There's another reason to read that stuff, and that's that, you know, the you owe that to the applicant. You owe that to the public when they show up. And if the public's, you know, all concerned about uh the setbacks on on something, it's useful if you've read the packet and can decide whether you agree with them or not. Uh and that's it's a matter of respect for the for the applicants and the public. So, uh that's has to do with, you know, your time. Uh the scope of development review. Couple of things I guess I'd point out. Uh that's the applicant that's in charge of it application, not the commission. you know, you get you review what is brought to you and you might rather that the project be uh 10 fewer units or that the commercial ought to be over on this side, but you know, you're not that the applicant buy that they own property. They have the right to decide this is what I'm bringing to you. You can choose not to like it, but what you can choose is to design is to try to redesign it.

We have to follow the code. you do. That's exactly right. You know, the code has standards. You can say yes or no based upon and recommend yes or no based upon what the code says, but you know, you're not also the applicant. There's a one sec. There's a temptation, I think, on any board to say if there's if there's problems with a certain aspect of the application, you're thinking about saying no. It was kind of a temptation to redesign it on the spot, you know, and uh resist that temptation because again, kind of remember role clarity here. Who's the owner? Who's the applicant? What's the situ? You get to review what they bring you and they they're grown-ups. They made a choice to bring to you this this application, not some other application. and they might have chosen poorly and what they bring to you might end up getting a recommendation and denial from them, but that's that's their job and their risk. You got a question.

Quick question. Does the applicant normally ask for their answers? Sometimes. Okay. Uh we've got a variance process as and it's a separate process that an applicant can ask for. Um, often that's after they've gotten an approval and they come back in and say, "Well, it's not working out. We need a sort of error, etc." Okay, just thought it is.

Yeah, Jerry was something I wanted to mention. Also, when you're going over an application from an applicant or something from an applicant, you see that there's things on there that are missing or not right. Um, instead of saying no, um, you can always table it. you know, you can make a motion to table that to so that those items can be fixed or addressed and it can be on the docket for the next meeting instead of just tossing in the trash and moving on. applicant like these things are missing. Can you provide X, Y, and Z?

Exactly. Yeah, that's kind of a Yeah. And Jake's right. You know, we're not in the business of doing gotcha here. A small community, you know, we when people bring applications to us, it's a serious thing for them. They they own property in town. They've got a right to have that their application reviewed and if you see you know this is this this and this uh we think you ought to think about it and we'll table this application we'll table this hearing and continue to have a nice meeting that chance and that's that's actually it's good for them it's good for you it's the right thing to do but you are limited by the code as I've said in this uh in in this memo and I know we're going kind of slow but it's going to speed up but I'm going make set of thoughts that comes. One thing that I noticed in Silverthorn was I had a a board member, a commission member, his name was Keith and he was a realtor. Realtor and Keith would always ask, "Yeah, but now tell us what the price point of these units are." And I would have to remind Keith that that's not a relevant criteria for approval of a reszone or for a site plan approval. He was interested in the price point, but he would want to argue with them about what the price point should be. And again, this is sort of rule clarity. You know, it's you're you're reviewing a uh an application for site plan or a reasonzoning, whatever it is that's based upon the code. And the code doesn't say, okay, you can say yes if the price points here or no if the price points here. It was his personal interest which find ahead, but it was the wrong forum to follow up on that and sort of just kind of remember what are the what you know between the locks is the commission and uh you know that was just not

so standard language regulatory tools you have I'll go a little faster on these planning obviously we're going to talk about comp plan in a minute uh Your comp plan isn't regulatory meaning it's not the comp plan isn't in by the set is the 90s code uh for a very good reason it's a plan and plans are by their very nature more general plans have a lot of shoulds and not as many as shs right uh that got litigated I was actually in that in that case on that that case up in Summit County and then you're driven from Frisco to ridge and you go to the very upper end of the of Dylan Reservoir as the river comes in and there's a little kind of commercial area there. It's called Farmer's Corner. In the day there was nothing there. Now there's a lot there but in the day 19 whatever was 80 there was nothing there but one bar everything and the sewage plant forage was is right there. Uh there outalls just in the border above D. Um and the county did a comp plan sort of creating growth areas within the county and they did not designate farmers corners the growth area and the fields who owned all that property uh were upset county saying you downzone and the Supreme Court said no that brought the lawsuit too soon. That's a that's a comp plan. It's not zoning. Nobody's down zoning at all. The comp plan is not regulatory. was a recommendation to consider it not be a growth area. Now, I'm sure in the intervening 40 years shown my age, uh 40 years, 45 years. Sad. Um very sad. Uh but you know, they they've outzoned that sucker by now, but the comp plan and the zoning shows growth area because it clearly didn't behaving that way. But

the point is the comp plan has a future vision. Uh but in order for that vision to get realized, you have to have zoning that accompanies it. So let's look at some other tools. Zoning is another tool. Conditional or special uses. I'm in the middle of it. Second page here. Uh all communities or most communities with zoning. You know, zoning code says in this zone district, here are the things you can do and here are the things you can't. Uh in fact, usually they say here are the things you can do and if it's not listed, you can't do it. So for example in hillside residential I forget all the terms here you can do single family duplex and multifamily but that's it you know another list but that list usually also includes things that can be uh done there as a special use but that's sort of specific zoning for that one parcel and it requires uh separate hearing and you apply these standards that I've shown here and that are also in the code that say, "Okay, this is a use that might fit here. If you're single family, you fit. You don't need any further permissions than a building permit to build there." But if it's a special use, you've got to come in the planning commission and plan commission makes a hearing and a recommendation for a selection. And the real issue is is the special use kind of compatible with what's around it because it may or may not make it. That's why special uses are special and in other communities they're called conditional uses, but they really are allowed on a condition or a series of conditions. Uh best example I can think of was a I think a a car wash in one of the cities I represent and it was listed as a special use in the groom's own district. application came in for the car wash to be there. And the real issue was the neighborhood, how close the car wash was to or that property was going to be of

the existing residences and what the noise level from the dryers from the automatic car's going to be on the neighbors. And that was one of the the the bases upon which the uh commission allowed it. but had some distance car and some sound walls and some hours of operation on the dry on the car wash itself. So that the dryers wouldn't operate all night. But that's a really good example of a use that may or may not be appropriate in that area and could only be approved if there are conditions that make it compatible with credit. You'll see applications like that in front of you and your code has the a similar list of it's longer than what's in this paper but a list of issues that mostly all about compatibility. Is it compatible? Is this operation compatible with what's around it? Uh let's see exceptions and conditions. You can apply you can you can approve applications especially special use with conditions. uh but those conditions need to relate to the the the project itself. And the two cases that I've mentioned here are the Nolan and Dolan case that I'm on page three. Uh you've got to have a reasonable relationship to some governmental interest. Uh the uh the Nolan versus California Coastal Commission. The Nolan's own a small home uh on on the coast. California Coastal Commission is in charge of permitting for any development within I forget how 1500 feet it's about more than that of the the Iowa on the Pacific coast all the way up and down California. So the Nolans wanted to blow away that house and build a big car. So they had to go to the California Coastal Commission and get permission to do that. Postal Commission said, "Well, we'd like to impose a condition that you uh that you

uh grant an easement along above the high water line parallel to the beach for the public as condition of our approval." And the reason we're doing that is it's hard for people to get from Highway One down to the beach if you ever driven Highway One, right? Highway one, and there's a whole bunch of houses. This must be a true story because I've heard more than once. Yeah, exactly. by the places you can't get to the beach.

You can't get to the beach. And I I get that. And it's a legitimate governmental interest to get the public to the public beach. But the the tool they chose was to just take an easement parallel to the beach. Well, that didn't get anybody from the highway to the beach. So, it didn't have any reason the condition didn't have a reasonable relationship. Now, had they said, "Give us an easement or a pathway or stairway down from Highway One to the beach that would have that would have made it." Bring me to the second case that Jake, remember, not only does it have to have a reasonable relationship to some governmental purpose, but it has to be reasonably proportionate to the seismic impact you're trying to correct. Uh Florence Dolan at the Aboy plumbing supply store in Tyiggard Washington. Yeah, Washington. And business was good. She wanted to expand the plumbing supply store. So she came in for a permit. Pyard said that's fine, but you know behind the scar is uh routine that we really would like a uh to own for a bike path purpose. And so that's going to be uh our condition because additional people with soy is going to result in more use and and we need to expand like that. And the court said that's not a legitimate you pass the Nolan test. That's a legitimate government interest. If the business is going to expand, more people are going to come. So you're going to need to have access. But I don't cast the is it roughly proportional to the impact test because really how many people go to get their straight L's and pipe joint compound on their bicycles, right? Not that many. So yes, you could have required something, but honestly, Tigard just wanted ownership of that RV

for its kind it public parks and trail system, and it was way out of proportion. So those are the two things to remember. Why are we doing this? Is there a legitimate government reason to require it and is there the right size of a condition or are we taking advantage of the opportunity we got these people under our thumb? Let's get a little more. And you know the courts are sensitive to that and that's why we have these these two cases bringing me to quad judicial bottom page three. Most of what you do other than your comp plan work is quasi judicial. Comp plan work is basically legislative. And the difference is this for quasi judicial matters you're like little you're you're sort of like a little courtroom really. When perk comes in and wants uh to do the next next project he's an individual that's asking to approve or deny or recommend approve or denial of a project based upon the rules in the code. So you're applying basically the law to this project and you sit kind of as judges on his application. You make a judgment about the application. That's a judicial rule. You're not wearing robes. It's not usually four months. That's why it's positive judicial, but it has some constraints. If Cine comes in or the staff comes in with a the comp plan, you're not judging an individual person or or their application. you're thinking, you're helping to establish broad-based policy for the committee, which is really legislative, and the rules are very different. Uh you would expect, for example, that for legislation, you could button Cindy in the in the uh grocery store and talk to her about it. That's perfectly fine. That's legislation. When I was the attorney for the car mically, my job was to lobby bills in the legislature. And you literally you're talking to a legislator in the lobby. You know,

that's it's a well name and it's a bedum in the lobby and you're trying it's like trying to do something serious in a in a at a cocktail party. It's a real challenge. But but you know, I'm there with the legislator. No one else is around. The other side isn't around, but I can do that because this legislation shift over to your rule your your job wearing your quas judicial hat. That's where you're acting on individual things. zoning requests, special use permits, uh, site time requests. Those requests are judicial and that comes with some rules. They have the right to notice the hearing. You got the right, the applicant, to show up here and talk to you. The public has the right to see that hearing to be here and to comment. I'm on the top of page. Four, the applicant's got the right to present witnesses, evidence, legal argument. We don't often get lawyers in here arguing for for for against a a project. I see it on the city attorney for Wheatbridgeidge. I see it more down there. We were a little more intigious community for whatever reason. Don't tell them I said that, but they uh but they, you know, that's the right they have just like you got a right to representation in court if you're uh if you're in a court case. uh significantly there's two things here that you I want to talk about the no exparte context I'll mention in a minute and the right to an impartial decision maker because you are judges and we expect judges to be impartial and to just look at the evidence in the case and however the chips fall and the evidence of the case and the hearing that's how it is rather than judge saying you know I've never liked development or I there's not a development that I don't like So I'm always going to go against her. I'm always going to vote for that's not impartiality, is it? That's not making decision based upon the case people make. Sometimes they make a lousy case. Okay, that's their problem and their

fault. But uh you know you try not to bring your prejudices to bear. So there's two rules. No exparte context meaning no context outside of the hearing. Now when I mentioned lobbying that's outside of even the Senate committee hearing. I could lobby the Senate committee members outside of the hearing because it's legislation. But uh for a court processes, for example, uh Jake sells me his truck, which is a I think very good truck. Let's say for whatever reason that I thought it was a a lemon and I sue him and Cases the judge. Jake would be upset if he saw me taking Casia to lunch before the hearing. That's an exparte contact. And why is that wrong? Because Jake doesn't have the ability to hear what I'm telling her, right? And it should be it's a it's a you want the tables to be even. Everybody gets to hear everything about that case in this room, not individually outside somewhere. So, we'll we'll talk a little bit about that. Uh you also have the obligation not to to prejudge the case. Now I live in the real world. It's a small community. We is a larger community but they act like small community. They all know each other and they know the developers etc. Uh and they have opinions. I can't tell you that you have a completely blank slate uh on on Kurt Sov's next project. Of course you don't. You are small. We all know what that project is and there's history. But you do your best to say yes. I know there's six feet here, but I'm not going to bring that history with me when I'm looking at this case. You try to as much as you can bring an open mind to to that case. Some examples of exarty contacts happens all the time talking with the applicant outside of

the hearing, talking with citizens and they will try to button you and say, you know, there's this hearing coming up. uh I the citizen would much rather be at home watching whatever is on TV on a Tuesday night and so can I just tell you how I feel about it and to vote against and you you know that's an exparte contact and you need to do your best to say look I really can't be taking this now please come to the hearing send an email to staff and they'll copy it to everybody um but you know often that's not enough for people or they they're not going to take that signal so I other tricks. You say, "Well, uh, you try to get them to come to the hearing. They still want to rattle on." And you say, "You know, I if I hear any more of this, I'm going to have to step down and not vote on the on the case." And that appeals to their self-interest. They're talking to you so that you'll vote one way or another. And there's that. Door number three, there's always three doors, but door number three is if they won't buy that, you say, you know, I think I hear my wife calling me for and I've got to go. So, you're or you can say, I I can't fully explain it. Jerry all the town attorney says I can't talk to you. You know, use me if that's the way to get how you get out of the fine. Just use any of those tricks to get out of that call. But necessarily, you will have to hear something from them. And uh depending upon how much it was make a little disclosure for the chair begin to connect so watching know that person X talked to me I told them that they needed to come here doesn't matter if they came or not what you're doing is making the disclosure to the chair but if person X talked took you to lunch and you know beg your all lunch time on this case you're going to have to say I'm sorry I'm going to have to so that's how to handle X part 3 contacts before you move on from X forte. Um

um do you want to go over recusing yourself since we do have um real est real realtors in the room meeting being a contractor? Yeah.

You know, things like that. Yeah. Very good. Uh very good. Thank you. And I'm not sure where it is in the outline, but this is a good time to talk about it. Um there's sex context and there's also a personal interest in an application. And um this comes up a lot, but they're really pretty good rules. Uh the the rule in Colorado is that that if you're sitting in judgment, if you're if you're on the quasi judicial board, uh you can't have a personal per or private interest in the application. And what's that mean? It really is. And the analogy I use is uh is what um is is what u uh let's say it would have been uh Tom Cruz said at Cuba Gooding Jr. in the locker room.

Show me the mic. And there was some Jeremy choir. I might have to update that reference. I'm just not getting the same. Yeah.

But he he said, "Show me the money." So the point I'm acting here is the personal private interests are defined in Colorado on the case law. Do you have the ability to to gain or lose money as a result of uh how have how the applications either approved or denied here? Uh the fact that you're a realtor and this might increase the um the the inventory of properties available to sell, you might end up getting listings on is not a person is not a direct financial interest. If you are the realtor for the applicant, then yes. Uh so again, it's sort of a show me the money, but think about what whether you have the ability to to directly lose or gain money as a result of your action on the application. And that's a really good uh line to draw. The other way to look at uh and I'll talk about accus I'm glad Jake mentions it. Uh the other thing that gets you off is if you've got a direct personal relationship with the applicant. That's a sort of the first level of blood relations, right? So husband, wife, uh father, mother, brother, uh sister. When you get out to cousins, uh the case law is really pretty good about saying, you know, you got to draw a line somewhere. Everyone's related. Six degrees of separation. If any of you ever have a doubt about it that you think you may need to recuse yourself, any doubt in your mind, just call Kasia or anybody in the town. If they don't know, they will find out. They'll call Jerry because the last thing they we need is a lawsuit.

Yeah. And that's exactly fact. That's me. He's he's been the reason.

Uh that's exactly right because you know each fact pattern I get it is is unique. I had one where the it was Excel wanted to some easement or whatever and one of the council members had three shares of Excel stock. Okay. Uh how about that? And I said, "No, that's denominous, you know, but I'm glad they asked me." And these are all kind of unicorns, you know. The easy ones are okay. You know, I I'm I'm a 50% owner of the applicant, you know. Um but the hard ones are these the the fact that really do vary. And Jake's right. just make sure that you you observe that you and go, "Okay, I'm going to ask." And then we can make a little record at the beginning and if I'm here, I can say, "I've spoken with uh Commissioner so and so and uh confirm that that he or she could participate or not." Uh or the question gets given to me in case or staff can report that. So that's if you got any question at all about how do I navigate this one? Is this an exarty issue? Is this a conflict issue? Is this a recusal issue? But if you have that relationship, you will you will need at the beginning of the hearing to say, "Mr. Chair, at the beginning of the hearing, I'm going to need to recuse and step down because I've got this interest in the outlook." And my advice is always not only step down, but leave the room. And that way, no one can say that you you didn't that you sat in the back and tried to give signs, right? Uh the statute even says if you're going to recuse, you have to uh not vote on the matter and refrain from influencing the other members. Well, what's that mean? Thank you very much, legislature, for putting that in the statute. But I gota I uh used to do special counsel work for Steamboat

Springs. And in that in that era, the mayor worked for the ski area and about every third thing that was on the council's agenda there had to do with ski area. And uh so they'd get to that item and everyone would look at the mayor and go, "Yeah, no, no." And can have a little mayor prot. And that really caught my attention because that was such an easy way to eliminate any question. You know, when they were done, they send somebody to go get him. It's not a big deal. So yeah, you had a question. So we could excuse ourselves from a project or due process. Yes. Okay.

Yes. It's not going to be held in cases because absolutely not. And and in fact, it'll be held to your favor. You identified that you've got an interest in this project and that really for reason for reason for reasons because and if again if there's a question Jake's right.

Uh that's my job is to field those questions and to give you the answer that you can then take take the board and announce to everybody in the room and make it my you can say Jerry D says I got him. I've got to step down. And Jerry D says, I do not have to step down. In fact, I should stay. And we make a record of that. And that's, you know, that's my job. And I'd love to be able to do that. What I hate is having these questions laid on me halfway through the meeting, you know, halfway through the hearing. If you got an issue, bring it up at the beginning so we're not like putting band or even before the meeting when you see your package, you see what's on it, and you see, oh, I'm working this project. Let me contact the town and see if I need to recuse myself or um this is a property that I'm selling that's on our agenda. I need to contact the town and make sure I can still be on the um I can vote on it.

Yep. Um yeah, I haven't had to recuse myself yet that I can remember, but I mean it'll probably come I'm sure. Yeah, it's community if you're the I had to ask, but I don't think I'd have to. You didn't attend you were in Mexico one meeting you worried about. Sorry. Oh yeah, that's right. That's the other way to recuse forotely forgot be on the beach.

So I've said here uh on exparte context a couple of points about them. I've told you how to deal with when people grab you in the grocery store and then one two three four. Uh what about site visits? You can always do a drive by site visit and I really recommend them. There's no substitute for having been by the site and go, "Oh, yeah, that big blue spruce is there, isn't it? It's not There's only so much you can learn looking at plan stuff." No, but if you're there, just avoid a conversation with the owner and because that's the next part contact. The next question is, can you have calls with the staff tasia administrator B the town contract planner? And the answer is yes. That's not an exparte contact. Why? Because judges all the time talk to their law clerks and their staff about a case outside of the hearing if they that they're your staff. What you can't do is your staff to the human telephone where you say to staff, can you ask the applicant this step goes and ask the applicant and then staff rings the answer back. That's like you using them as a as as a human telephone to stop talk to the applicant and that's an exparte contact outside of the quing. If you've got questions you want the applicant to address

questions. Hang on one second. Sure. Sure. If you've got questions, you you've read the packet, you go, you know, I I would really like the applicant to address this in the hearing. I'm fine with that. In fact, the applicant would appreciate that. Again, we're not in the we're not in the business of gotcha here in town. So, if you've got issues after you've reviewed the packet before the hearing, feel free to ask staff to communicate that to the applicant so that they can address it or not. They're grown-ups in the hearing. Yeah. Should we let the rest of the board be aware that we are making a site inspection? No. Uh, no. Uh, other communities are more formal about that.

I'm not. So long as your driveby doesn't interact with the owner. I'm talking to another. Yeah. I I had a site trespass in there. Okay. Yeah. No trespassing.

I had a site visit in Silverthorn. The last time I did a group site visit and I've stopped doing them was we were going to take the whole counselor. Okay. Fine. Uh so we do and I instructed the applicant applicant's engineer who's going to be the guy to open the gates and show us by states where the boundaries were. Uh, and I said, his name was Gray, somebody. And I said, Gray, you know, we can't have you like testifying here because the public isn't here. We, this isn't the hearing. We're disciples. So, open the gates and let us in. And that's it. And he could not restrain himself. He could not help himself. He said, "Well, just as a matter of information, I want you to know that there's this this drainage, and that's a good thing or a bad thing." And I cautioned like twice. He could not he he just could not resist. So I said, "All right, we're done." You know, the side of this is over. We're going home. And that taught me that that's just too complex. So I advise people do the driveby individually. That's going to be good enough. Uh I talked about talking to town staff conducting public hearings and that you do that a lot. You got a good chair. Jake runs a good uh a good uh tie hearing that's respectful. you and it it has the appropriate dignity even for a small community. You're still doing the public's work, you know, and it's reported and it's there forever. So, a couple of points. You've got a good chair. Most of these rules are ones that I I make sure uh the chair knows, but that the uh you can always ask the speakers not to repeat each other and they always will. And over the years I've gotten more relaxed about that because then I used to get impatient about it. But now I understand that part of what someone wants when they come to speak to you is that their statement,

you know, that the uh this is going to be subject to flooding and I think it's a bad idea. And you hear that like three times. But the other part is they want you to hear that from them

and they're different than this guy over here who said the same thing. But now you're hearing it dock on it from me and I have the right to say the same thing to you because it's from me and that when I finally kind of realized that a light bulb went off and uh you know yet it means the hearing goes on longer but you kind of signed up for that you know when when you said yes to this you signed up to get the brass bottom of the word and just sit there and listen for people that choose to come again they're not getting paid either. Uh, so the fact that you're hearing it three times and three different people, it isn't the same thing. You're hearing three different things because it's three different people, right?

And once I kind of absorb that lesson and I found myself being a lot less, you know, impatient. One one thing you will get in here and we'll get it more the selective meetings. Um, they'll get come people come in here, they'll use, you know, inappropriate language sometimes or they'll they'll get pretty angry and you'll want to make a you'll want to react and and your face will show an expression. Try to avoid that. Just keep a straight face and show respect to that person that's talking cuz that can go bad sometimes. They're watching you. Jake's right. They're watching you again. And there's kind of no taking that back, you know, when you're up there and uh that stays with you and they remember that

and it's recorded and they won't forget that. They won't forget that. And it feels unfair because the audience can be impolite to you right all the time. And uh you can't and that's just that is what you sign up for. Fortunately, we don't we don't deal with that as much as the select would do. Yeah, they hit the bottom of that.

Yes, they they they do. They they do. Uh I'm looking at uh we got failed motion. Not worried about that. Stick to the to the request in front of you on page seven. Uh the applicants in charge of their application. We we covered that. Cover the conditions approval, ethics, and conflicts of interest. What about gatherings of the commission? and no more than two members at a time cor outside of right meetings correct

yes that's right thank you open meetings law the open meetings law Colorado says that that no meeting uh the the members of a publicly constituted body and you are uh three or a quorum whichever is less so or a class but the statute says three members or a quorum whichever is less sad And they say whichever is left to cover county commissioners which are mostly three member bodies. So two county commissioners. So then we can have three together. Is that correct? But no one you can't have three. You can't have three together unless they're together is fine.

If you have three that's an open meeting. Uh and so if there's three of you in a at a restaurant that's an open meeting. If I'm the president, I come and sit there and listen to you. If you have four, that's a quorum and potentially you could take action. If that's the case, there need to go a 24-hour head uh notice published posted. Now, you typically don't have that problem. You only meet here. You meet regularly. Once in a blue moon, you have a special meeting. But what the open meetings law addresses is kind of the the the temptation I suppose in some communities for business to get done more informally. Camille years ago my first house I I lived in Alma, Colorado. Hands up everybody knows that

I lived there before. You did? Yeah. 1,400 17 18 19 years old. Okay. I did not know that. Um and uh they I was the only attorney in town, so they made me the town attorney, of course. Um and after the after the board meeting, many of the board members would adjourn to the Almost Bar, which was right across the street from the other bar, the A that's no longer there. Is it no longer there? I've been there. Hill used to own it.

Yeah. And they would talk about town business. And I was younger then so it was harder for me to like assert you know myself. But uh today I would say look board members I you're allowed to be friends. You're allowed to know each other. This four of you are allowed to be together at a wedding or a bar or whatever but just you're not talking about public business. And the statute actually has an exemption for quote chance social gatherings at which the discussion public business is not the primary. So St. Christian has a party at his house and both Shane and I are invited and we all show up there. That's that's perfectly fine because that is a social gathering. Okay.

You know, and happily the law actually recognizes. Of course not. I mean, you're right because that's the last that's the last talk about you know the laws.

You know, you have lies outside of here. Yeah, it's a small town and the law recognizes that and it says you're allowed to to to to have those lives. Just be mindful of it and also be mindful of the appearance because other people know, okay, you're on the planning commission. Uh uh just, you know, avoid even casual references to, you know, her poor subject like, you know, ah he's got broad shoulders. He's fine. Uh but you know just keep mention of him and his project out of the the the conversations at the wedding reception or wherever where as you you are. But but if you kind of count those to go hm there three of us here we're not talking about finance commission are we? Okay we're good. So just be aware of that. Uh, so in terms of of conflicts, if as I've said before, if you um if you believe you've got a conflict, you feel free to contact me through staff or directly ahead of time. If you do have one and we determine you do, you get the chair's attention before the meeting starts and say, "Jake, I need to make a little record. Uh, I'm going to step down, but I need to make a record of that." Uh, and Jake will say, "Okay, I'm going to open the hearing on the XYZ project and I'm going to recognize this commissioner." And uh, you'll say, "As it turns out, I'm the uh, applicant's father and uh, on the advice of the town attorney and always use me. That helps. I think not that I'm great, but it helps people. It just it it it signals to people that you're not just making it up, you know, which is use me in any way you like that way." And on the advice of 10 attorney, I'm going to have to refuse him. I'll be leaving the room and and um call me when you're ready. And uh that's that's how to uh that's how to handle that. If you weren't in the room, nobody can say that you tried to, you know, use that Steamboat Springs mayor's approach, which is really a good one. Other

communities I've seen the person were accused to do one of several things. Stay up there on the D, you know, at the table and like how's that look? If you're in the audience, you know, I had one person stand there and decide that he could ask questions, just not vote. Basically, do everything but, you know, no, you know, or sit in the bath and, you know, make faces and why put yourself through all that? Take a break. Go get coffee for God's sake, you know, go to the bathroom. U put a quarter in that machine down there and get some M&M's that are 5 years old. They took it. Wait, there was a machine down there. We had a candy machine.

Yeah, a candy machine. One of those little quarter ones. Yeah. Yeah. They uh they went out of business. They took it back. I know. I went down there and I seen guys uninstalling our candy machine. I was like, "Can I get the candy out of it, please?"

But there were some selective meetings where that's sustained. you know, and I I put two quarters and I put them all in my jacket of profit and that I told him I'd be done by seven. That gives me I always do say uh my job, you know, I'm here for you. That's my job to answer questions no matter how small or large. And I encourage you to to direct those to me, especially if you've got questions about open meetings, open records, do I recuse or not? There's this thing coming up. Is this a condition I could actually ask for? That's all stuff on your staff. And so feel free to get with KA and get that question directed to me or she'll just give me your number. Give you my number and I I'll I'll respond. Uh being a small town, some of us own homes here. Somebody came to us was like, I want to develop this thing and it happens to be right behind your property and it's all up to code, but you don't want this thing there. you could in that situation where I have to recuse myself so I can't be partial. Yeah. About this existing.

Yeah,

that's a that's one of the toughest questions because you don't have a financial interest necessarily. People will if I've heard it once, I've heard it a million times. Someone doesn't want the reason because it's going to devalue my property and that's the financial interest and and and I hear that a lot and it's not that compelling. Um, but at the same time, it's very hard to say that you don't have a preconceived notion about that application. And I think that that's fair for you to say. Uh, I I believe that I have I cannot render a impartial decision. I prejudge this application. And we make a little record of that in a kind way. Hi, I'm the next door neighbor. Uh I honor the fact that he's got the right to present, but I've spoken to the town attorney and given my views, I believe, uh I would not be an impartial decision maker. If if it comes up that way, then we can we can design the state on the record and then then you can step down.

That's if you're impartial obviously, but if you can make a y impartial decision based on code, then you should

That's exactly right. And Jay's right because there have been circumstances where uh commissioners or council members have come to me and said, "Well, uh you know, I've got this history with these people uh that on the face of it, you would think for whatever reason, but uh you know, I believe that I can I can render an impartial decision or I've got a expparte contact that was pretty minor, but uh how do we deal with that?" So, I said, "Look, we'll do a little Q&A at the hearing." And the Q&A is, "Okay, Commissioner X, is it true that you uh you know, you had this conversation or that you got this relationship?" Yes. Uh what's the extent of the relationship and was described or what was the extent of the conversation you had? Do you believe that you can render impartial decision on the application based upon what's heard here tonight? Yes. you know, now I made a little record and and I can always give that Q&A to casure and the staff I'm not here that really establish that you are are able to uh it could go the other way too and very I've had to do it a couple times where uh is it true that you're you have this financial relationship? Yes. Uh uh and because of that relationship there's a a potential for profit or loss. Yes. And then usually it's me saying on the basis of this, Mr. Chair, it's my opinion that the commissioner so and so uh is not able to participate and I would ask that he be excused. So you see it can go either way but either way we made a little record. People don't think something's fishy and we're kind of making it up based upon how we want it to turn out. You know, you want to have the I'm all about the you want to have decisions that have uh the respect of the people that that come whether they

like your decision or not because we said yes or no and that's another matter but they have the process was fair and open and that if we achieve that we've done a lot what I what I've learned on being on this commission and it was it's been ups and downs. It's been hard to understand some of it, but the one thing that I did learn is that you're here to serve the people and make the right decision for them. You have to set aside all of your hate and vitrial for somebody that you may have. Um, cuz obviously we all have people that we don't like. I have plenty of people that don't like me. Um, but you have to be able to set that aside and do what the code says and what's right for that person, their property, and the town.

That's that's all there really is to it. But it's not even our not even our purpose to say whether it's good for the town, right? We're just strictly saying is this sometimes special uses in particular you're looking at some things are pretty cut and dry it's enough but some things you do get like it's within we still don't remember or you might be able to add special conditions for the benefit of the town. I remember Sam Yianis the clear the special use hermit or was that a was that a special yeah so remember there was conditions that they were recommending yeah pull that

and we we granted the special use without conditions we could have put conditions that's kind of an example got a vet or something you wanted there outside and uh yeah asked you have a list of conditions that they have to so typically if someone has an outdoor event then that has amplified sound. They have to get a permit every single time, but Lloyd is having events like every weekend. And so he he created a special use in the code. So anybody can do this. It's not specific to Lloyd.

Um anyone in that zone can apply for a special use that allows them to have an amplified sound permit in perpetuity. Um but there are condition like restrictions on that. So 75 dB at 75 ft which you know they sent me picture of the decel readings 9:30 p.m. I'm sure time yeah you have a time restriction everybody has to go inside at 9:30 or I think it's 9 but they you know they end their events at 8 so that everybody is inside by 9. But I was just using that as an example of what's best for Is there equal restriction too as far as the number?

The building itself has a higher restrict and we also set an additional uh occupancy limit outside which is not fire code. That was one of the conditions. Right. I was thinking back, I wasn't on the board yet, but I sat in as an alternate hearing on the shaminity where we all had opinions on that seemed like it'd be more like, yeah, it's appropriate use according to the code, but we all had opinions on whether building that was the special use grant permit granted to a business in the commercial Gateway Commercial

Gateway Commercial District. But it was it was unique because it was um um what what is it called? impatient in impatient um facility because they're it's a rehab facility that they're living there. So um I mean I was very much on the fence about it, but all the questions the gentleman was asked, he answered them and they were he made us all feel a lot better about it. sound. Yeah. But like Jerry was talking about earlier with a different application uh the car wash you can ask for sound walls or sound reduction or you can make them change the orientation or you know you can ask for reasonable

uh not accommodations reasonable or those are those are the conditions that we're talking about that are what's best for the town. Yeah. Yeah. And again those don't always go into effect. They that can go to the board of select and they can appeal it. board select could say, "Okay, we're not going to give you these conditions. We're going to do it this way." Yeah. So, you guys do have the final say on something. Special use in particular. You make a recommendation to the board and then you do the final stuff,

but they take it seriously and honestly, you do a lot of the homework for them. You know, the planning commission really does homework for the board because they've got other stuff, not just, you know, they've got budget, they've got, you know, what are we going to do about a IGA for police? you know, they got they got a lot of other stuff and and you're able happily to focus more time on on land use projects. So that's why they're, you know, your recommendations are are always really meaningful to them. Well, I appreciate your time very much.

Thank you. Do you have questions for your new members? Nice to see you. It's good to see you, Jake. And and uh I'll Yes. and I'll uh I'll split and let you talk about comp plan and with any luck you'll get to see me again or one of you'll have a question and I can I can answer it and uh you'll see me at the future. All right. Thanks J. Thank you. Um,

how do you want to go over this? You just want to brush up on for the new members or Yeah. So the comprehensive plan for the new people if you don't know what that is um basically it's each town or city has a comprehensive plan and its intent and purpose is to guide us in our future planning. So it outlines goals and priorities for the community and it informs like Jerry said it's not a legal thing necessarily but it informs our decisions about what kinds of legislative initiatives we want to take. So, our particular comprehensive plan is in your binders. So, Jeff, I again I will put it in a real binder for you. I'm sorry this didn't arrive in time.

Sure.

Um but it's going to be I believe it's uh eight in your binder. So, that's the comprehensive plan from 2016. So, feel free to review that. Um, now last year we put together a schedule which is on the back side of this meta that I wrote um to review the sections of our comprehensive plan. Um, and I think that's definitely useful for you to understand where we were at, but I do also want to encourage you when we're planning for our future one to thinking about and brainstorming what you think our community priorities are. Now, you know, we do them every 10 years because stuff gets outdated. Um, one of the critiques of this existing comprehensive plan is that it's pretty broad. It covers kind of way too much stuff actually.

There's also a bunch in there that stuff in there that's already been done. Correct. Yeah. Well, yes, definitely. We have And how often how often is the calc 10 years? 10 years. Every 10 years. When we do it again next year. Next year. Next year. Yes. Okay. That's good to know.

Yeah. So, that's one of the reasons we're talking about it is because you guys are going to be directing that effort. um the account administrator and this is normal. Typically the volunteer commissions and staff we will hire a contractor to come in and do things like speak with the community about what they think is appropriate to include in the comprehensive plan. They'll do community meetings. They will do um status updates on things that we've been working on. They will come and talk to you guys and figure out like what you guys want in the comprehensive plan. And so we'll probably end up hiring a contractor. That's well everyone hires a contractor unless they're like a major city that has their own there. Um we certainly don't have that capacity. So um so the board of selectmen will decide whether or not we are going to conduct it next year. As I said it's typically every 10 years. So we are due for it next year. But that doesn't mean

the board of selectman's going to decide that. Yes. They decide on the budget. So, and they will direct you guys to conduct a new comprehensive plan or not. Um, you know, staff intends to recommend that we do so, and I think that the board of selecting them will want to. So, but they actually have control over whether is there any way we can bring it up to them sooner rather than later so we can sell it on.

We're going into our budget cycle in August. So, we will be talking about that soon. Um, yeah. So what I want to know, what I want to get direction from you guys about is what you what kind of information you want ahead of time to prepare for the comprehensive plan. Do you want us to review the 2016 comprehensive plan? Do you guys want to bring what you like prior like a have a work session where you bring priorities of the town? I think outline kind of thing. Yeah,

I think it would be good for the whole entire commission to take like a not like a regular scheduled meeting, but to just sit down and go over the comprehensive plan in its entirety, but remove everything that's already been done because I feel like we don't need to discuss any of that. Most of the things in the comprehensive plan are fairly generic. So, as far as like things getting done, it'll say like we need to enhance transportation. So, we've done some things that Right. We get some ideas going over stuff that haven't already been done. So yeah. So I don't think anything can definitively be said to have been completed per se.

I bet we could probably have a three-hour special meeting and get all of it. We can totally do a work session special meeting if you guys would like to do that and we review the entire comprehensive plan. Three hours. Well, two or three hours. Yeah, I think two at least for the entire Yeah, it seems good. Once you get to three, it gets tired. Yeah, it wouldn't be in any way. It probably wouldn't be an even meeting either, would it? You guys can tell me when you want to do it. We'll break it up into two sessions. That's up to you. So, how do you want to proceed? You want to do a review? That's what I'm hearing. Yeah.

Okay. So, we'll do a review of the 2016 plan and we can either do it in one meeting or we can break it up into multiple meetings. And Jake, I think, is advocating less time. I'd rather just one meeting's better for me. Yeah. Would you rather I mean one two to three hour meeting to go over the whole entire comprehensive plan accordingly plan this and it would be a an unscheduled meeting. It would be just not one was in it. Um yeah I think one yeah I I'm leaning towards going to just I would say reach out to the rest of the

commission and leave their differences. You guys do form the majority of it. We're only missing Chris and Alex and Kathy. So, well, let's get their input, too. I don't want to just, you know, make a decision without them. Okay, that's fine. I'd rather everybody be here. Okay. Um, do you want to schedule out for August or September? Let's see what everybody else says. See what their time frame looks like and if we can get everybody on the same page for a day because I know he runs a realtor company. I run a construction company. He's very, very busy down the hill. So, I know you're very busy talking Monday through Friday 8 to 5. Yeah, we can figure something out. I'm sure.

Oh, my worry about breaking it up is we're going to forget first meeting and that's half the second meeting like recapping what we have. That's been my experience with the last few going over. Okay. just get some ignore one just

yeah I I know just from doing the sections we we do have some really great conversations about each section so I would say in order to keep if we do one meeting in order to keep it kind of concise I'll say we can do a staff presentation and then you guys can write down questions as we go but ask after the end and we can have a more comprehensive discussion at the end does that sound Okay. I Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. Somebody want to want me to keep us on on time on sections, too, because we might go long on Well, this is what I'm saying is if staff has a presentation on the entire comprehensive plan and then you guys ask questions at the end. Oh, I

got a full discussion at the end so that we're not getting bogged down in each section because we could probably spend two hours on each section. Your laptops and write down notes that fashion, right? Well, I can't, but

um Okay, that sounds good. We can do that. And then um as far as next year, you know, we'll we'll know what we're going to do once the board directs you guys to start working on it. But I think you can all start right now just paying attention to what's going on in town, writing down things that you think are things we should focus on, and remember that this is a 10-year plan. So these are long ranging concepts that, you know, so it shouldn't be like, oh, we should put up a stop sign at this intersection, you know, should be we should do a comprehensive ch, you know, re-engineering of all of our streets because they're crazy or what? I still need a gym in town.

Mhm. Right. Totally. So car wash. Yeah. Car wash. Gym. So, you know, instead of saying a gym, which we could still do as a sub thing like fitness, you know, what fitness goals do we have for the community? You know, CCMRD was originally supposed to be in Georgetown. Yeah, you mentioned that. Wait, where? It's right where Cabin Creek sits. Oh my gosh. It's walking distance from my condo, man. I know. Oh my goodness. Could have been subject. Yeah, at least I think that's where we're supposed to be, but I know.

Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. Okay. Does anyone else have anything they want to say about the comprehensive plan right now? Okay. We'll send out an email trying to figure out a time and Yes. Okay. Um I would say the only thing is like guard rails on what is too too extra you know costwise and just real realistic or can we well so we're not making the comp the next yeah we're just having a discussion be as big and bold as you want yeah I I don't think we need to have guardrails on that kind of stuff because ultimately we'll be hiring a contractor

community input if You're like, I want you're like, I want to plate all of the buildings in gold. I don't know. We can throw it out there. I think the community will go for that. But dream big. Like there's sometimes the big ideas push us further. You know, when you keep it realistic, we don't, you know, we can't surpass that if that makes sense. You dream big, it anchors us towards that goal. And sometimes we don't achieve it, but that's okay. Yeah, we want everyone in Georgetown to be millionaires. Why not? Let's Let's aim for that economic I don't know. You're right. You're right.

Yeah. Then we all be able to afford to live here then. Honestly, with the race is doing with the gondola project, you know, like we might be the attractive place for people like that want to go do that, don't want to stay down in the middle of the zoo. Right. That's exactly what I was thinking. I was like, we're gonna get so much more influx after that because people are going to ride the gondola and then go somewhere else. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, that kind of visioning like, okay, we want what kind of community do we want to be and then putting it out there to that contractor, getting community feedback on it, and then putting it in our comprehensive plan so that it's guiding us into the future. You know, do we want to be a less busy place that's an attractive location for these? Do we want to be the second place that people go? You know, do we want to be a ghost town? Maybe. And some people legitimately want to be a ghost town. Some people are start a lot more people are starting to wish we were. Yeah. But we can't survive that way.

Uh and that's going to be a conversation with the entire community. Like make I know some people do feel like we are growing too fast which I think is funny. Our downtown is kind of dead. I know. And why so many people on the streets? But the thing that they're concerned about is that they're being priced out of their homes that the traffic on I7 is too intense. And so, you know, we got to take those comments for what they are. People want to be able to afford to live here. So, how do we promote affordable housing? How do we promote the things that make it what they're imagining? You know, more restaurants doesn't necessarily that might not really be what they mean when they ask those when they make those statements.

Affordable housing is another statement that's kind of a joke too. So, but affordable housing is not affordable though. Like when you look at other municipalities and affordable housing, it's fractional. You can't say $700 a square foot is affordable. No, it's not. No. Right. Well, yeah, we can talk about what our actual affordable housing code is. It's a little different than how other people do it. So, we do a um we limit who you can actually sell or rent 10% that's not that the I understand that, but like there also has to be like

it has to fall into a certain income. You can't make more than a certain amount and it has to be affordable because what they're saying is affordable is out of reach for someone who's Yes. in that income bracket. Yeah. So like it's not it's it's true. I know that I know that Idaho Springs does have true affordable housing and isn't those new apartments I'm not sure about the new apartments, but there are some apartments that are right next to the ones right behind um the um hardware store. Um, those units are all affordable housing and those are true affordable housing. Um, I know that because I have a friend that lived there and he was paying for a twobedroom, I believe, $850 a month and he could qualify for that

and you had to be We don't have like you have to sell it back to the affordable housing and you're Well, no, these are rental these are rent principal. So, and they I guess they're I don't know how it works. I'm not not pretend to know how it works, but um we don't have anything like that in Georgetown.

So, if you guys wanted like more aggressive affordable housing, that could be an initiative that we talk about with the contractor and then work with the, you know, talk to the community and see what they're looking for. But again, you know, also with that type of affordable housing, if we were going to do something like that here, I feel like it would need to be if you're going to live there, you would have to be employed in this county. I feel like cuz otherwise it's pointless. Like if you're not employed in this county, you shouldn't be living in affordable housing in our county. And would the affordable housing be in historic district or around the lake?

We're getting way way too. These are things you can write down and we can talk about it during the comprehensive plan because I I'm just guessing here that the people who have lived in this town for a long time really like affordable housing historic district like it well you're assuming what affordable housing means in this situation which you're assuming some negative implications but a place being affordable to someone that lives and works here I don't think anybody's opposed to their neighbor for, you know, working at a restaurant or something like that. Well, we just need it for the workforce. It doesn't matter which part of town it's in. Yeah. Um

it doesn't matter even if it's in Georgetown proper. It could be, say, for instance, Craig Abrahamson owns properties on on Sixth Street. if he wanted to somehow get a government grant to turn some of those units into affordable housing where he gets I'm assuming that's how it works where he gets um money from the government in turn using those units to rent out to a person that qualifies for that affordable housing they get to pay this amount and the government covers the rest I think that's how that works right like subsidiz I mean then that would be one way to do it but again I'm just guessing here so I don't know how that works works, right? I think it does.

I think that's the only way you get section 8 in public downtown.

So, most things are private transactions. We don't have section 8 housing, which is the government subsidized housing in Georgetown at the moment. Um, that's typically a federal program that's administered, not at the local level. Um, so our affordable housing ordinance requires that any development of three or more has 10% may only be sold to people who make 120% of the average median income or less. And half of those units, so if there's uh 100 units and 10 of them have to be affordable or accessible to 120% AMI, half of those, so five of those have to be sold to or rented to someone who lives or works lives and works in the county absolutely live here. So they be living in the unit, they have to make 80% of their income in the county.

Um and that's you know the buyer can be multiple people. So that residing in Georgetown or Toyota County. Well, of course they're going to be living in Georgetown. They be living in the actual unit. So, they can't they also can't um like Airbnb it or anything like that to someone else. They have to be living in Georgetown and commuting and working in other springs. That's fine. They're allowed to do that. They have to make their money through Creek County and we we want that because we have a lot of employees who go back and forth between Georgetown. Absolutely. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. I think around like employee housing part of it I guess that would be another idea too is employee housing. Yeah. Yeah. Like directly direct employee housing. Yeah. For clear recount. Not like a certain business, but like I don't know if that's even possible, but like county employee housing. Yeah. So half of our or our ordinance requires that half of those units have to be employ. That's right. Okay. So that would be that.

Yeah. And so you know, but like in uh Lake View Flats, for example, he's decided to extend that so all 10% are employees of the county actually. So, he's adding that additional restriction to the other five units even though he doesn't have to. So, and the person that owns the unit ever sells it, they can't make money off of it.

Uh, it's deed restricted. So, in perpetuity, so the deed forever, we add a covenant to the deed that says you may never sell this to anyone unless they meet our affordable housing requirements. Um, so they can make money totally because uh the they can sell it to someone in 10 years or whatever to anyone that can make 100 that makes 120% AMI or less and lives in the county. Okay. So the way it's like can't let's say you're going to 10 years but in order to get out of the affordable housing you have to wait 20 years. So after 20 years you can sell it for market value. Okay?

You you like grow out of that, right? But like if you're going to sell before that 20 years, I want to say it's 3% per year in gains that you could go. So if the market went up 10% in a year, which we had in like 2020, 2021, 222, whatever it was, then if it was affordable, housing like could only sell for 3% more than what they bought it for. Does that make sense? 10% more. Makes sense. So it just has to But I don't know what the criteria is for Georgetown. Georgetown doesn't have and it's in perpetuity. There's no time. It's not 20 years or anything like that. It's in perpetuity. And it's not based all on the market. It's based on the income. And

so if our income doesn't go up in a hundred years, too bad. The average med income is this much. You have to sell someone that makes this much money or less. And why, I may ask, why would it be the highest and best use for the town of Georgetown to have affordable housing? Because we are a service industry economy and in order to keep our businesses alive, we have to have employees to work and our workforce can't afford housing.

So we want to create housing for our workforce. There's something called the tourism trap where you build a beautiful place. People with money want to live here and they buy up all the housing. But then what happens is this the people who work to make that place beautiful end up getting pushed out of that community. And so we're trying to preserve spaces for our people who make the community great to stay and live here and be part of that community. Yeah. Here I work in Summit County. Yeah. I live here and I work in Summit County. I can't even my husband and I bought a condo because the houses here are more than what we could afford. So, we're in a condail instead of a house.

And perhaps I can emul after something's been done like a Dylan or Gre or Silverorn um to see what they've done. Well, they have it already. All of them. Yeah. No, they have tons and tons. So many for all the people that work at the places. The resort community have a way worse problem than we do. Honestly, you know, they have they've been trying to impress for a long time. They have employees that that come there seasonally from all over the world. Yeah. And they stay there and condos that are all I mean it's they have they have it set up pretty I know Aspen doesn't have it.

Aspen does have it but they bust them back to Springs. They don't have enough. Okay. So I want to just draw us back in. We're getting really bogged down with the housing in particular, which is a great conversation to have, which is not for today. So, everybody, um, um, the only ones that were here for last week or last two months ago, it was MA's meeting were me and you and you as well. Um, technically, you two were here also, but you were not commissioned. That's right. So, we have the the minutes for Wednesday, May 21st, 2025. Does anybody want to read them or are you all good with them? Yeah.

Do I have a motion to approve the minutes for Wednesday, May 21st, 2025? Yes. Motion for that. All in favor? Okay. Wait. Sorry. That was You did it first. Natasha. Who did a second there? Oh, we both did. So, Natasha and Shane, let's go. Motion passes. Okay. So, in the future, the way this works, I'll ask for a motion. I say I motion for you to approve. No, I would say you would say I motion to approve the minutes for Wednesday, May 21st, 2025. Or you would you would motion to approve whatever it is we're approved, but you would read that out. Or if Jake reads the motion, you can say so moved and not repeat all.

I can't make a motion. But you can say, would anyone like to motion to approve the minutes of Wednesday, May 21st, 2025? And Natasha would say, so moved. And then Shane would say second. Then we're done. Do I have a motion to uh adjurnn this meeting? Yes. Make the motion. So you can say so moved or I motion to adjurnn the meeting. I I motion to adjurnn this meeting. All in favor? Yes. Second motion. All in favor. All motion pass. You already

Thank you guys. Thank you people for being here and hopefully more meetings will be competitive. We had a smoke. Oh yeah, wait. You better be careful. Those are blank slicks. Do you guys know about the development moratorum that has right now uh for the water taps? Yeah. So, anybody that wants to um do any kind of development project? Yeah. Six months from when we passage, which is about two months ago. Where's the where's the location for the July 30th meeting? The community center right across from the post office. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. I thought I was just want to make sure I got the right place. Um, now I will beat up. So if you want a new binder, I can I got plenty at work, too. I had to cannibalize some binders for you. Thank you. Appcate. Awesome.

See you guys later. Bye. Hi, Chase.

How are you? Nice to meet you in person. Last time I was here. Nice. J, you going to karaoke? I don't know. When did you start? 8:30. I know that just having um I have some things I have to do, but I did tell some people I would go today. So, someday I'm going to make it to that baby. I always see people posted in the community page. It's really fun. Like, someday I'm going to get there. That little one, but my husband's great. So, sometimes he's like, "Just go." Is he a good singer?

Uh he is, but um he was great. He was like, "Oh, no. You you go and I'll stay home." Good night.