Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

6:30 we'll get started. Give them a moment to start the Okay. All right. 6:30 with the get started with the planning commission here and with the roll call, please. Brian Cvetic, Peggy Smith, and I think Margaret, are you online? Okay, there we go. They let me let me in. Margaret BS. Okay. And then Andy Miller. Thank you. Can I have a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. Second. All in favor? I I

I Okay. Thank you. And a motion to approve the consent agenda, which is the minutes from the September 24th meeting. So moved. Second. All in favor? I thank you. Okay. So, open forum. Anybody in the audience if you come to the lectern and have uh sorry, three minutes and hopefully discuss a discussion of anything other than agenda items of course.

Yeah. Hi, this is Clark Lipkcom. Um, I want to raise a real concern of an executive session that the planning commission held uh where you discussed uh subjects that are not allowed in executive session. And I I'm curious who advised that and would like to know who advised that. You can't discuss public policy in executive session under Colorado law. Peggy, you were in the executive session. I think Andy, you might have been here. Garrett was definitely there. Brian was here. Uh the other planning commission members there. So what y'all did was illegal. And I think our community deserves more than that. So who's advising the planning commission on matters of that nature? So, Clark, it's not our policy to to answer questions that during other business. We'll um take this up with the town staff.

Well, I would like you to take it up with the town staff and the town lawyer. Um there are only certain things that can be discussed in executive session. Your staff, since this is all they do, should very well know that. Your town manager, I think, was in that meeting as well, and your town manager should be well aware of what is allowed in executive session. And Kent Whimmer, your lawyer was in that meeting. So um but I believe what was discussed was public policy and that is absolutely illegal to discuss in executive session. Public policy is supposed to be uh discussed with the community and and provide community input. And if this town and this town board, this current mayor is looking to shut down community input and just go do whatever the town wants, I don't think that's going to work very well for our community. I'm very disappointed in what happened. Um I'd like somebody to investigate why and how it happened. Uh and on what basis uh you know was that authorized like who who I mean Garrett does the agendas for planning commission. I'm assuming Michael Brack your manager approves them.

No. Okay. So Garrett does the but we were we were advised by our town attorney just to provide a general explanation. We were advised by our town attorney to have that session.

Okay. [clears throat] But again I mean reading the law it's very clear that public policy discussions are to be held in public. So it's a public forum. You work for the public. You don't work for yourself. It's a public procedure and a public process that we have. So let's please be open about it. And I would like an investigation held. And did your lawyer advise you to have that meeting? And if he did, um, I'm very concerned about your lawyer and his knowledge of state law. So, I'd like to understand under what state law, uh, that you're allowed to have that executive session in Kit Limmer's mind. Okay, Clark, you you made your point. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. But would you please look into that? Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. Any other problem members of the public? If you give your name and where you live, please. Um Ryan Sharp, my wife Alicia, um we live in Winter Park. Um we lost our home in Hurricane Ian in 2022. Uh I have severe asthma and allergies and that's why people say, "Well, why'd you move halfway across the country?" Moved here because of the weather. I I certainly didn't move here to ski. I I don't feel like this mic's on, but anyway. uh didn't can't afford to ski. Uh can't afford to mountain bike and I not in good enough health to sk do either one. The only recreation that I

[sighs]

uh enjoy cuz I played competitively at one time uh is pickle ball. And I met with the board over at the rec center and they uh um basically it was a lot of meetings for nothing. Uh, the rec center is a country club for the wealthy and the truly poor cannot afford it. And my problem with it is is they're taking our tax dollars to pay for it. If it was all privately funded, I'd have no problem with it. Now, the reason I'm here at the planning commission is because I worked on an affordable housing board for six years in Florida and I saw the same thing happen there that's happening here. the truly poor. And when I say truly poor, I'm talking people that make 15,000 or less in a year. Uh they're not served by so-called affordable housing. There's no such thing as affordable housing cuz what's affordable to me is not affordable to you and vice versa. And uh I don't want my tax dollars going towards this monstrosity building that's going to be built. And it's only going to enable people to raise rents on the poor people like my wife and I because they're they're serving $86,000 to $120,000 uh annual fee residents. That's not affordable. That's not helping the the truly needy. Uh, I have no I I like Clark and I like I think he should be able to build. We need other business uh uh restaurants. We need competition in this town because the price of uh eating is way too high because we don't have anything. I'm all for development. Uh again, it'll drive down the cost of uh living for everybody, but what I'm not for is my tax dollars paying for the development. I do not uh affordable housing doesn't exist. The government

can define it however they want, but all it is is it's it's illegal racketeering. It's taking money from uh people that are not going to get any benefit out of it and giving it to the wealthy. And I'm sorry, but that that housing is for the wealthy. Um, so, uh, whether it be the YMCA, uh, of the Rockies, whether it be, uh, affordable housing, whether it be the anything else that's so-called nonprofit in this town, uh, if there's a fee involved, that is absolutely ridiculous, that's a country club for the wealthy. That doesn't benefit me. My tax dollars should not go to towards it, and I will do everything I can to make it public and fight it. Thank you, sir. Any other input from the public and other business tonight? Anybody online?

Okay. Parnell had his hand raised. Oh, sorry. Parnell's online. Okay. And could the the clock that's in the timer clock in the corner, could we get that so I can Yeah. monitor the threeminute limit and then let Parnell in if we would. Hi, this is Parnell Quinn Frasier.

You're losing guys. Just Okay, start my timer. Anyway, August 27th, um that meeting part of that was on the public, uh website still. It was online. We could see it. Um you guys went in executive session for legal advice about some kind of zoning. It was clear that you guys were talking about a certain project. And um there we go. There we go. I think we got your partn Did you not hear the beginning of this? No, we're just not sorry. We hear you now. Can you start my time over then? Yeah. Okay.

Thanks. So, Parnell Quinn Frasier, I want to go on to record about the plan the commission's uh the planning commission's executive session on August 27th, 2025 on the pres proposed zoning change in what has led to a request for a vote by the town board in an emergency moratorum without any public meetings. Um, during that meeting, part of the meeting was left online, so we were able to see what you guys were talking about, even though it was supposed to be a closed meeting. During that meeting, you guys talked about a specific project and how to stop that project. Um, this is what Clark was talking about. Um, so I'm not I'm just trying to paraphrase what I had because he brought up a bunch of it. So, the questions for the mayor, Brian [clears throat] Svenic, Mayor Prom, Peggy Smith, and Kent Whitmer. When you went into executive session, you cited the executive session was stated to be for a conference with the town attorney for the purpose of receiving legal advice on specific legal questions under CRS section 24-6-424B regarding potential changes to zoning regulations and the legal availability application and implementation of new regulation and was and was that the session and was the session limited only to the town attorney giving legal advice? vice or did members talk about whether imposed the emergency moratorum to stop the development? Did any member give direction to staff or discuss strategy for stopping the submitted development while you [clears throat] were in that closed meeting? If the town attorney told you about the legal risk of an emergency moratorum, why was that not shared with the public in open session before a vote for an emergency before emergency before a vote for an emergency moratorium was added to the prior board meeting to freeze private property

rights. If you discuss zoning policy instead of pure legal advice, that's a violation of the state law and the recording of that executive session could be ordered to be released by a judge. I'm asking you to do the right thing and release it voluntarily. Will you release the recording voluntarily? because if you don't and you cause uh individual harm, they have the right to sue you under a takings act, which doesn't cost you board members anything, but it costs us taxpayers a lot of money for your mistakes. So, I'm going to ask you again, Brian, Mayor Curvenick, will you voluntarily let people listen to what happened during that meeting?

This is an my meeting Parnell and this is also open forum, so I'm not going to respond. I'm going to have the town investigate it just like we said. Um Andy Miller, would you release it voluntarily? Um respond and you've got 8 seconds left. Thank you. I'm just waiting to see if you're willing to do it or not. Peggy, are you willing to voluntarily? Carnell, your three minutes is up. Thank you very much for your input. [clears throat]

Okay, anybody else online? Okay, thank you. So we have a first item is discussion discussion of possible action of proposition 123 fasttrack review requirements and staff report. Thank you chair Miller. I'll just uh get my presentation going here. So this agenda item is simply a discussion of a required fasttrack review process that the town must implement for affordable housing projects in order to comply with uh the provisions of Proposition 123. So in speaking to kind of the background and need of this discussion, in 2022, Colorado voters passed Prop 123, which established the state's affordable housing fund. Um the affordable housing fund is a totally voluntary uh funding program that municipalities, counties, uh local governments opt into uh in order to receive uh potentially receive funding from Prop 123. Uh in 2023, the town of Frraasier did opt into Prop 123. uh and that opting in uh essentially meant that we committed to increase the affordable housing stock in Frraasier uh by a fairly modest 9% over a three-year period. Um so for projects in Frraasier to continue receive uh to continue to be eligible, I should say, to receive funding from Proposition 123 beyond this initial three-year commitment period beyond 2026. Uh the the state laws around Prop 123 require that the town implement an expedited review process for uh land use applications that incorporate affordable housing.

So in speaking to what the minimum requirements of this expedited or fasttrack review process look like uh the main thing is that a final decision on the application is rendered within 90 calendar days of a complete submittal of that application. Eligible projects are those that include at least 50% or more of the units uh within the development as deedestricted affordable units. And Prop 123 defines for the purposes of FastTrack those affordable units being at a 60% AMI for rental units or 100% AMI uh for for sale units. I do want to note that Frasier has the option to go beyond these minimum requirements uh by either requiring a lower ratio of affordable units in the development such that uh less than 50% of the total units are affordable or by considering deed restricted units at greater AMIs to also uh trigger this this fasttrack provision.

So you hear we have some of those ratios already, don't we? we do um and I'll speak to that in a moment on the next slide. Um before I go to that, I do also just want to note that this fasttrack um review process even once we implement it, it's completely optional. Uh the applicant or developer doesn't have to pursue this fasttrack process if they don't want to. So, um, so to Chair Miller's point, we do have, uh, a few different policies, uh, adopted this year that relate to incentives for affordable housing developments that trigger based on varying criteria. Um so starting with the first two rows, these are um fee related incentives that either wave, reimburse or defer various fees and payments associated with land use applications. The next two rows focus on uh zoning incentives that were adopted by the uh board earlier this year. This built off our density bonuses that were present in the Riverwalk and St. Louis landing overlay zones. it tweaked them a bit. It added a new height bonus provision. Um and and these are the criteria to meet those uh in these two rows. So you can see that the fasttrack review process um aligns with um you know our current fee incentives trigger when you have 50% or more affordable units. That's the same as FastTrack, but our our zoning incentives trigger at a lower ratio, 20 or 30%. The other thing I wanted to note is that AMIs that the town has adopted for our fee and in and zoning incentive policies

um are greater than the minimum AMIs required for fasttrack review. Um, these AMI figures are in alignment with DOA's definition of affordable housing in a rural resort county which Grand County is classified as. Um, essentially this provision allows higher AMIs uh to be considered affordable units. So in implementing a fasttrack review, Frasier has the ability to uh match uh match match the criteria for fasttrack to be at a higher AMI similar to the other policies. Any questions about this from the commission?

So what would the AMIs that we could what we've got right now or

Yeah. So, so this 60% and 100% are um a a floor. We could choose to allow higher AMIs um to to trigger a fasttrack review if that makes sense. So, a developer doesn't if we want to just go with the what is required by the state, it would be for example 60% AMI on rental units in the development. we could choose to adopt a policy that says as long as the AMIs are 100%. Um, you can you can go through this fasttrack review process and that greater AMI is a easier hurdle to clear on the developer end, right? So,

well, yes, I would I think 60% would probably be impossible up here. 100% 60%. Why can't you? How many units do you have?

They're not all at 60%. So, I I spoke to this a little bit, but there are some potential options and how we could implement this fasttrack review. Again, we could implement it with the state's minimum requirements, 50% or greater ratio of units at the AMI specified. Um, we could choose to adopt this fasttrack review process such that it matches our current lowest incentive threshold, which if I back up to the previous slide would be the the third row, the zoning incentives, which is triggered at only a 20% ratio of deed restricted out of market rate units in the project. Um or a potential third option would be aligning all of these incentives together to have the same criteria such that you know if you meet the fasttrack review criteria you're also getting the fee incentives and you're getting the zoning incentives. So, we could achieve this by some combination of um lowering the affordable unit ratio for the fee incentive down from 50%. Increasing that ratio for the zoning incentives up from 20 and 30% or doing some combination of the two and meeting them somewhere in the middle. [snorts] Any thoughts on a potential strategy or questions? What do you think is more seamless?

Yeah, I I think you know in speaking with other staff uh kind of I I think trying to make these incentives as attractive as possible is certainly the goal of staff. Um I think there is some discussion around well the fee incentives don't really move the needle a whole lot in the scale of a project. Um, you know, talking about things like building permit fees and and use tax could move the needle, but our site plan and subdivision fees are quite low. Um, you know, I I think really that the biggest impact to a developer is likely some of these zoning incentives that allow for greater density and building height, lower open space, lower parking, etc. Um, and as I'll speak to later, I think really the fasttrack review is likely not a huge incentive on the part of the developer. Um, certainly would welcome the feedback of uh of Mr. Lipkcom that we have here in the room, but as I'll show later, you know, our review process is already as codified, I would argue is already fairly quick. Um, you know, I I have a summary of a few projects I'll just maybe highlight over to that. um four kind of more more recent um major projects that all from from the determination of completeness to final approval by the board uh landed within the 90 to 120day range. So, none of these came in within 90 days, which is a requirement of the fasttrack review, but um this gives the the commission and the public a good idea of of how quickly staff is able to, you know, get get these land use applications in front of the board for approval, generally in less than four months as it currently stands. So the range is 90 to 100 days or is it supposed to be with supposed to meet the 90day?

So the requirement by the state is that you're supposed to meet uh within 90 days. Um I will note some some maybe caveats or details with that. So again it starts when the application is determined to be complete. Our code allows five business days from initial submittal to that determination of completeness. It's essentially staff ensuring that all the plans and documents etc are are provided and that the application fees are paid. Um this 90-day clock runs continuously. Um and this also includes the time when the application is kind of in the developers or applicants court, you know, addressing review comments. So that 90-day period includes that time as well. However, the 90-day period does not uh include, you know, kind of post approval steps, things that happen after uh an application goes to the board. This is, you know, obtaining signatures and recording final documents, things like that. Um, so I'll also speak to a few extensions that are allowed um within, you know, the the minimum requirements of the law. Again, these are optional, but I think they are logical to adopt. Um the applicant can request extensions um a one-time 90-day extension for any reason or you know extensions to comply with various one-off cases like complying with a state law or a court order or to address comments from an outside um approval authority that is not the local government. And additionally, the minimum requirements of Prop 123 also allow for the town to basically request or, you know, utilize an unlimited number of 30-day extensions. Uh, and this is to address, you know, additional review comments. Um, you know, Dola in in their recommendations and best practices, you

know, obviously recommends that governments look to minimize those 30-day extensions, but that is an option with this fasttrack review process. So, if if there are applications that do require additional rounds of review, uh, this is supposed to catch that provision. Um, the last thing I'll note is that this fasttrack review process only applies to certain application types. Um, summarized in the box above. So, most commonly, what the planning commission and board sees is a site plan. um very rarely or occasionally that that site plan may also be submitted with something like a a variance, a a conditional use permit um application that would be approved, you know, um simultaneously with that site plan. But this fasttrack review process does not apply to preliminary and final subdivision plats as well as reszoning. So even if those applications are, you know, in support of an affordable housing project, they they don't need to follow this fasttrack review process.

They're not eligible for the fasttrack. Yeah.

Or at least it's it's not a requirement. I I guess, you know, the town could offer that. we could adopt language that says yes, subdivision plats, for example, if it's in support of an affordable housing project would follow that same fasttrack review process. And I think likely just in terms of um, you know, workflow, you know, site plans and subdivision plats often, you know, get reviewed and approved concurrently. So, I think in the case where those two applications do come together, it makes sense to tie them together in their review process. condominiums, town houses. So those those are subdivisions, aren't they? Or they are eligible for for the fast track or

Yes, they would. Um, again, so subdivision of land, you're talking about lots. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I guess I would just emphasize it's it's simply not required that subdivision plats fall under this fasttrack review. I I believe we could still consider them eligible if we wanted to. Margaret, go ahead. Unmute. Yeah, for some reason I've gotten um muted and they won't let I won't let it won't let me unmute myself, so I can't I have to raise my hand. Is that normal when you're on online? Could you Yeah, I think that's normal. Wendy, could you make sure she's a co-host

if she's not already? Yeah, because I wanted to ask a quick question. Sorry. Yeah, we hear you. Margaret, go ahead. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Garrett, so go back to those three options and I think Peggy asked you what you thought was the most seamless and I'm asking the same thing. What which do you think? Yeah, I I would say probably option two or option three again with the the goal that we want these incentives to be attractive and and taken up by those you know in the private development community. Um, so going back to this table, I I think if if we aligned the fasttrack review with what are currently the lowest threshold to clear, which is that zoning incentives line right in the middle, then that means basically any any project that receives that zoning incentive also gets fasttrack review. Now, I I think there's an argument that could be made that um and I think this is ultimately subject to discussion and approval by the board because it was the board of trustees that end adopted the fee incentive policy. Um should that should the ratio of affordable units needed to achieve that fee incentive policy uh this 50% right here uh maybe should should the board consider you know lowering that ratio such that it's an easier hurdle to clear and and therefore those fee incentives are are more achievable and attractive to developers. But I I would maybe argue that's a a second step, a second disc discussion with our our board.

I mean, I think, you know, the public has told us that that affordable housing is the number one thing that they care about. And so, anyone who is willing to look at building affordable housing, um, we should we should fast track. So, I would agree that zoning incentives, I think we start there. Okay. You know, we we need more incentives so that more people build affordable housing. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Well, this uh that basically sums up my presentation. I appreciate the feedback from the commission. Some feedback from the from the audience. Hi, Cler Lipkcom. For the record, um I think a a couple of things that we should all reflect upon is how many applications do you have today pending, Garrett, for anything in town currently under review in the town's court? Nothing. pending applications total it's closer it's between five and 10.

Okay.

Yeah. So we have between five and 10 applications and this fasttrack process by the town was predominantly driven by huge municipalities like Denver uh etc where there's a mass amount of applications and they're backlogged and they can't get through them and they were trying to move affordable housing to the forefront. We don't have anybody trying to build affordable housing in the town right now. Um there with you just said you don't have any you're waiting on responses from the applications. I expect many of those are probably my applications. Um and so I don't quite see a need for fasttrack. Rather, I I think what we need is to encourage developers or someone to build truly affordable housing, which I think the mill apartments is truly affordable. [laughter] Excuse me. Um, and I don't quite think this is the way to get there. And I don't think we have I mean, granted, I will say I think we have a review timing issue uh in town. and and Garrett, uh, with all due respect to you and and Allen, we now have two planners and I think we saw baseline, uh, a third party consultant in the town uses, um, we I largely develop in PDD zone where all the studies were required to be done on the front end, but I can go back to really 20201 through call it 20112 and and granted we had an era of 2007 uh really 11 12 where nobody was doing anything like you you can beg anybody to do anything I was doing a few very small projects but nobody was doing anything um but during that era it wasn't it was

very typical for a project in both rendevous and Graham Park to go from PDD to final plat in 90 days okay there was one town planner uh it was Katherine there was one town engineer Jim Swanson it was fast, efficient, it was collaborative, and the town wanted and needed, frankly, development or it was going to die. Okay, the town was had no money. Andy, you know this, you were here and every meeting was, you know, can we afford much of anything, right? Uh, so, you know, I fast forward today and I find it interesting that, you know, we have a lot of money in the bank as a town now. And um I credit you know the developments of Rendevu and Grand Park largely and some of the business owners, the distillery, the vicious cycle and new stuff and current business owners frankly deserve credit for you know continuing their businesses and pushing to grow and enhance and improve our town. But we now find ourselves in a process that's mired down in reviews. And you all heard me at the last board meeting. Peggy was there uh on the village at Gramp Park and we're in our eighth review response. I think we have seven review responses and we're on our eighth working to respond. Uh and it had new comments from the engineers that I mean could have frankly relates to the cousins ditch and the pipe and that question could have been raised in the first set of plans also things that have been approved previously. So it really begs the question of um do we really need a fasttrack process or and then also I guess I would ask you guys what do you think um has broken that has taken our you know what was a pretty smooth well-defined process where the town wanted things to happen and and actively worked and engaged with developers and investors and and by the Maybe y'all are starting to find out how

hard it is to raise capital for projects, but it's extremely hard to raise capital for projects, particularly in such a small town. And with the record and the history that everybody sees, it's very challenging and and you guys may not know that because you maybe haven't built something or had your own business, etc. But but I know that our business community knows this. Um, and I know that the development community that is still here knows this. I know my counterparts are ecstatic to not be doing stuff in Frraasier anymore, my my exartners um, and to be where they're at. And and so I think you really should be asking yourself, you know, why why has the process become so mired down? What's slowed it down? You have more staff. You have double the staff today that we had during the era when we did this stuff. more promptly and efficiently and and nothing's changed. I mean, in fact, technology's gotten better and design work, I think, is far better. Uh, I'm dealing with water plans that the town built in 1999 2000 with our funding uh for the green zone tank and the red zone pump station in Rendezvous. And they're handdrawn and the town can't find a lot of them. I don't know what happened to the files, but the the town literally designed and built that stuff and then we paid for it and then ultimately that's what led to us taking over the design and construction of the major water systems and sewer systems and things like that. Um, and it's interesting to see the difference between those plans which frankly aren't that old. I mean, it's only 24 years ago to what we have today and the technology that we have today. It's only better. So, I really think the core question with double the staff, what's the issue? And why can nobody, including people that are trying to do things that will

benefit our housing inventory, get through the process timely? In other words, I don't think there's a need for a fasttrack. I think there's a need to focus inwardly at the town and the management of the town and the staff in the town and how they're being directed or guided to approve certain things or not approve certain things or delay certain things or not not get certain things done because I truly think that's the issue. I mean I personally with no plans I and no offense to Allen, I don't think we need two planners, right? I mean, I don't know what's going on in town that's so like mounting that we need, you know, all this extra staff, but we should have a more expedited process with doubling of staff and still consultants on the standby that can take stuff on. So, I I don't know if Garrett wants to address that and maybe he can explain why the process has gotten so slowed down.

So, Clark, this is really outside the agenda item. No, no, it's about the fast track. I know. Well, okay. But I mean, and yeah, with all due respect, let me just finish. I'm wrapping up. the the the fasttrack is literally put forth by the state and and under this fasttrack program, you should with your staff and the lack of plans coming into this town, you should be doing every plan that should be a goal to achieve every plan review and every process in that time frame. Yeah.

And that's it. I mean that it shouldn't be a it it shouldn't be an incentive. We need our town to develop, right? We need to encourage development. Okay. Not discourage it by things taking years and years and years to get approved. Okay. So, let's let's not become, you know, kind of an aspen. I mean, I can tell you what happens when you do that, and this is directly related to this discussion, Andy, is cost and prices of everything go up. And I lived in a community for 12 years where I watched it happen. You delay, delay, delay, stall, stall, stall. Housing inventory gets worse. prices go up because the demand doesn't weigh and it's counter to helping our housing inventory issue because that's really what's driving our affordability issue and I agree with the gentleman spoke earlier that we have a serious affordability issue. None of these things that are being floated are going to help address that. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you, Clark. I'm sure I'll give you give you a little more history. I I served for six years. help us with your name one more time for the record in the recording. Yeah, I served for uh six years on an affordable housing board and

did interior design for 20 years in Florida uh commercial primarily and uh there's always the same obstacles um to affordability. And I'm going to step on everybody's toes here, probably even Clark's, but the Builder Association has an illegal racketeering going on with most counties because uh they purposely build things that fail. They they uh put in things that do not need to be there. Uh my job on the board was to drive down the cost per square foot. I got it down to where I could have built an affordable housing and I actually hired a or worked with an architect to uh develop affordable housing uh based on surveys that I I did personally. The city fought me because I found that the median income of the town I lived in which was Puna Gorta was not uh uh over 50,000. It was actually about 26,000. And the city had purposely fluxed the uh messed with the numbers so that they could uh you know increase that level of um income that you you had to have to have affordable housing. And I watched as the six years went as realators and builders were added to that board. All of a sudden I was pushed out because the builders hated me because I actually wanted to produce affordable housing. I was not allowed to present uh what everybody I surveyed said they actually wanted in their backyard, which was instead of a high, you know, fourstory skyscraper, a block if you will, they wanted a uh community of tiny homes. And and uh the people, I mean, I went to Walmart. I went to the mall and I surveyed people. And what I found is they're not opposed to apartments or

affordable housing. what they're opposed to is the design that always seems to happen, which is these monstrosities of, you know, four to six level block buildings that look like crap. Uh, but if we had if we uh would allow if code here would do what they did in Puna Gordo, which was uh minimize the uh minimum square footage for a structure, we could have uh tiny homes, communities. It would actually boost the economy. it would be affordable just by its nature. Uh the trend is with the younger generations, they don't want big houses. They don't want these mansions. So, it's coming whether we want it or not. The the what I would suggest is embrace the change, lower the square footage requirements for builders,

which we've already done, sir. So, okay. Yeah. So, look a little closer at our codes and and um and we need to kind of keep the agenda moving. [clears throat] I just say real quick. So ranch style uh building ranch style in terms of affordability and affordable homes is actually a better way to go as well. Okay, just something to add. Yeah, thank you so much though. Any other input? Parnell has his hand up.

Yeah, Andy. Um Parnell Coin again. Um, the biggest issue I've seen with the developers that I talk to, and I've I talked to about 15 to 20 every month that look at developing in Frraasier, the [clears throat] incentives you guys are offering are minimal, as uh Garrett suggested, they don't really help with what people want to do and it doesn't encourage people to build in the town of Frraasier. But their number one reason they don't want to build in Frraasier is the town of Frraasier has a reputation for not keeping their word. You guys make deals with people and if somebody missteps by a day, a week, can't get their building permit approved, you try to find some other way to screw them out of more money or back charge them or injure their project more. So, you know, you guys really need to clean up the act that you're doing right now and be what Brian said he was going to be and have a transparent town that holds the rules and the law. and remember that you guys are servants and not masters. And your job is to help us build a better community, not be in the way. And so far, you guys are getting in the way of what people want to do.

Okay. You talk about wanting more housing and then you put up roadblocks to block housing. You talk about more We have a We have a Parnell, I'm sorry. We have an agenda item that we're discussing. Yeah. And I'm talking about your agenda item. No, you're not. I'm talking about your incentive. You're launching general attacks on the community and on on this board, Andy. I am talking about why people do not want to build in the town of Frraasier. That's not on the agenda, sir. This is a this is a fasttrack system that the state requires. We will move on to this to the to to other to discussions specifically of this only, please. Yeah, I am talking. That's exactly what he's talking about. It's encouraging construction development.

That's right. That's what I'm talking about is encouraging. That's not on the agenda. Okay, that's enough. All right, let's um we're going to move on here. If you have something specific to say about the fasttrack process that's on the agenda, then then say it. Otherwise, you're then we're done here. We got to move on. Thank you. Okay. So, any other input from anybody else? Anybody online? Okay. So any other discussion from the board? So Garrett, just to clarify, this is the state requires this, right?

It's it's required if we want projects, including those led by private developers um within the town of Frraasier, to be eligible to receive any amount of funding from from Proposition 123, from the state affordable housing fund. And we do receive state funding for the for the project that we're doing now. the the town with our our development partner was successful in obtaining $12.9 million in funding through Prop 123. Yeah.

Um and again there there are other grant programs that other communities in Grand County have utilized. Uh Grandb has gotten a similar award. Um, I believe Kremling and Grand Lake have received uh what are called planning capacity grants to help help them, you know, set up review processes and and code amendments that support affordable housing. Um, but yes, this is required by the state in order for future projects to be eligible to receive this funding uh source from the state. Something I would just add real quickly to uh Michael Bracktown manager is that u this is actually tailored more towards private development than it is public development. Um it is a new program they are rolling it out but the majority of their applicants are private developers and I have spoken with one other private developer who is who has who has and is currently developing in Frasier who is looking at this program as well. So as far as eligibility is not just um to the private developers but they want to ensure that the towns that are facilitating that development meet this this criteria as well.

Okay. Any other discussion from the board and so you said it was discussion and possible active. What were you hoping for tonight? I think just general direction of the board of how to implement this as a code amendment. I think I I do have good direction from you all uh tying and and writing these fasttrack criteria to match um our current lowest threshold which is that zoning incentive in our code. So uh we'll likely bring this back as a code amendment in January. Sounds good. Yeah, thank you. Sounds good. Thank you. Thanks, Margaret.

So our next agenda item is um discussion of residential uses within the business zone district. And this is a discussion item staff report. I'll be presenting on this one. Let me uh get the presentation up. Okay. Good evening uh planning commissioners and chair. My name is Alan Celiff, assistant town planner. Um tonight I'll be presenting a discussion item on residential uses in the business district. So uh this item is being brought forward following um some concerns being uh voiced regarding recent development proposals that mainly include residential uses in the business district. um that as the town is currently underway um updating our comprehensive plan. Um it's anticipated that the comprehensive plan is going to be addressing broader land use um and zoning goals um and discussion items uh specifically related to mixeduse development, smallcale neighborhood surfing retail and development in general that expands the town's sales and lodging um tax as a as a fiscal base. Um these are excuse me u concerns linked to the long-term economic vitality of the town. So we're bringing this forward as a discussion item kind of ahead of some of the larger discussions with the comprehensive plan um targeting later next meeting in November and then um hopefully wrapped up by the end of the year. um that will further just explore this uh this topic

and others and then staff can potentially bring forward a code amendment if directed to um in starting in 2026. So currently just um kind of the reason why this is coming to a head is the business district allows uh a range of residential uses um multif family uses are allowed by right um single family uh dwellings attached and detached are allowed with a conditional use permit. different um different stage or different kind of allowances for um what's allowed and what kind of approval processes, but there's currently no requirement for commercial uses to be included in new developments. Excuse me. So just to uh start off a little review of the business district, the the purpose statement, the intent of it, it stated to um that it is to provide a wide variety of highway, commercial, uh community, retail, personal service, general office, and other business uses. It doesn't specifically mention residential uses. Um that of course could also be tweaked and amended in any sort of code amendment. Um part of the packet materials tonight included two attachments. The second attachment included a um kind of a survey of varying other adjacent communities. For purposes of formatting and whatnot, I didn't include the these purpose statements in this presentation, but those are included in that attachment to for reference um just as comparison items for some of these other communities and their non residential commercial districts. So for the Frasier uh business district, these are the residential uses only. Um in kind of in order following our use table uh just the uses that are permitted uh some varying specific uses but kind of the the bulk of them would be multifamily, single family uh live work units are included. Other specific

ones like assisted living and bed and breakfasts. So multif family again multif family and live and work are permitted outright. And then um single families would require a conditional use permit. The conditional use permit would just be a an additional level scrutiny required for approval. It it specifically requires approval by the board of trustees with additional criteria that would be evaluated. So here's our current zoning map provided for reference. We could always um come back to this as well, but just want to have it in the slideshow here. All the areas in red are the areas currently zoned business. Um, these include areas to the north of downtown, to the south of downtown, a mix of existing uh development from residential, commercial, um, kind neither use things like churches, um, uh, there's vacant properties, there's a fire station, there's utility u water and sanitation utility pond. So um a variety of uses but generally uh within proximity of highway 40 the uh as part of our kind of initial discussion here we wanted to do a bit of a deep dive into what other communities how other communities address the topic. So, um, we looked at each municipality within Cran County as kind of a first level of comparison and then some nearby mountain communities, um, focusing on Summit County and Steamboat Springs as pluggable resort communities, um, within with adjacency to Frasier and Grant County. and then a few additional communities just on the west side of Denver metro as kind of a maybe a baseline or a neutral comparison for larger communities within the region. Um so attachment one that was included

in the packet was was all I think it was 13 communities that we looked through and um indicated what level of residential uses are allowed in various zone districts. These next slides are attempt to kind of summarize that a little bit more topically um but generally covers the same information. So this table consolidates um all the zone districts that are included in these neighboring uh communities by uh zones that allow residential uses outright. So, exactly like the Frasier business district, um these other ones, Grand Lake, Graanby, Hot Sulfur Springs, I believe it's eight total also include um predominantly non-residential zone districts that do allow residential outright. Um, and I'll I'll note that a lot of these zone districts, just like the Frasier business own district, allow some level of residential outright and then maybe a different type that would in require an additional approval. So, some allow multif family outright and like the Frasier one, single family is more restricted or vice versa. So, you'll see some of these pop up in kind of both categories. So Ellen, the ones that are blank don't allow residential in business or

I'm sorry. Can you So you got Kremling doesn't have anything listed. So So that Kremling does not allow residential in their business own right. They have the they allow some residential but they'll show up in our third category of ones that are allowed but with a specific requirement as part of that. And that'll really be the bulk of this presentation. After these next couple slides, we'll be going through what those additional requirements are as kind of points of comparisons, ideas, um things that that may be of interest or may not be appropriate. Thanks, Alan.

So, this next category, um again, I'm saving the the one that's kind of a little bit more in between. This will be the zone districts, examples of zone districts that prohibit all residential uses. Um when I when we uh categorized different zone districts, generally it was anything that was non-residential. So we looked at mixed use, commercial, and industrial. Um the ones that prohibit it outright are generally more industrial in nature. There are a few in here that are commercial. Um I believe Frisco has a couple of them that don't allow it. Um yeah, and then Breen Ridge has some. And then Arvvada has one, but the rest of them, especially in Graham County, are just industrial. zone districts that don't allow residential. And then this is the last grouping of of zone districts. See, it's a it's a um kind of a more filled up table. Um a lot of these communities just have a larger variety of zone districts or a larger uh catalog of zone districts. So um maybe they're a little bit more specialized on the ones that do and don't allow it. then um have various ones that are mixed use like commercial, ones that are outright residential and commercial. Um that's why you know reading these tables kind of in conjunction with the purpose statements and then the specific regulations uh helps tie it all together. So for the the balance of the slides, I believe there's four or five here. I I just pull excerpts from the zoning code of these different um communities. Uh so we can read the the text from the code to kind of um see how detailed some are and how some are more broad. So Grand Lake for example includes allowance for multif family um multifamily units, condos, town houses. I believe that's the whole range of of

units besides single family detached homes. Um but the requirement is that they are required to have commercial space dedicated commercial space within the first 50 ft of um of that building. So that would by necessity push the residential either behind or above the commercial space. Um so points B and C here are they they appear to be crafted more to close any loopholes in in design of that. So that letter B specifies if there's hallways, elevators, kind of service areas included in this area, then it requires commercial space on the second floor. And then that uh letter C just specifies phasing that the commercial has to be built at the same time as residential. It can't be pushed to a later phase. Here's Kremling that was uh just asked about previously. So in their non-residentidential zone districts um they have the requirement that any dwelling units cannot um compromise comprise more than 50% of that building. So that um necessitates a majority of commercial or at least I guess 50/50 at the maximum in terms of requiring commercial space. Winter Park has a provision in there. They have a downtown business overlay. So it's it only applies to um properties within 75 feet of Highway 40 and it requires ground for commercial. And then Breen Ridge is u one of the more non-escript requirements. It just states that commercial uses uh or residential uses that are included in with commercial have to be secondary. So we read that as being accessory of some form. It can't be the predominant land use in a development. Um Dylan goes into quite a bit of detailed I'll just pull out a couple of excerpts here. So they've got two different zone districts. Um their core area retail zone requires um any

residential units to be above commercial uses on the second floor. Um and then their mixeduse district allows a greater proportion of residential. I believe it's up to 80% can be residential, but it has to be developed in conjunction with some of these specific uses that they want to help activate that mixed use zone district. Um, they also specify there's design specifications in here about location. So, occupies the primary street front edge, any commercial uses. Um, and then there's an exemption in the in the Dylan one that um allows uh developments that are for workforce housing um by by agreements as executed agreements. So deed restrictions presumably that those would be able to be built without a commercial component. Running through a few of these other ones. Frisco includes a bit of a different approach in that they specify specific streets um within the applicable zone districts that those street frontages have to have commercial uses. Um Silverthorn is similar to I believe it was Bracken Ridge just states that it could be it has to be an accessory use. So not the majority of the land use. Steamboat Springs has slightly different provisions for some of their different non-residential zone districts, but um one grouping requires commercial on pedestrian active building frontages. So presumably there's additional uh definitions in the code that would kind of define that and better direct that. And then in another grouping of uh commercial zone districts, there's a cap on the uh unit size of any residential uses and um location regarding ground floor 50%. Finally, uh these are the last couple of

communities here. Golden includes examples. Um they set a 25% threshold um of total floor area that could be for um residential use. So up to 75% could be residential excuse and only 25 would have to be commercial. Uh they also have a carve out in here about um yeah 100% use being um affordable units. So that another way that we can potentially tie it to um some of the town's h affordable housing incentives would be to allow it in areas that um maybe just market rate affordable or market rate units wouldn't be. And then finally, the city of Wheatidge includes a lot of these some of these similar ones in terms of uh majority commercial uses. They cap it density. They include a density cap at one unit per 5,000 square ft of lot area. And then any new residences can't be the principal use. So again, relying on that accessory use definition. So pretty wide survey here. Of course, there's, you know, you look up any number of other communities, we may be able to find additional ideas or or approaches to it. Um, this is kind of the starting point. Um, again, it's we'll be kind of diving into the comprehensive plan in more detail in the upcoming meetings and then with the town board. So, we want to have have these um these discussions in mind. we can continue it in those meetings and then ultimately in uh January either if we have direction prior to then to have a specific code amendment or um kind of tie it all back together at that point we could come forward uh in February potentially at that point. So, um, again, no dis no, uh, action tonight, uh, as much or as little discussion as as warranted, but happy to answer any questions and, um, obviously we'll be we'll be following up this in the coming

weeks. I have a couple questions. Uh, Margaret. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, Margaret. Uh, go back to the map which shows the, uh, business uh, the with the red. So why what uh okay so looking at the map the um St. Louis landing property why is that striped?

So that is uh the St. Louis landing overlay district I believe it was applied prior to the the approval of St. Louis. So that was before the town had the Riverwalk district I believe. So that was the tool utilized in order to um help facilitate that specific development. Um, so it's it's zoned business with St. Louis landing overlay, but it's really kind of separate from the rest of the properties um shown on the zoning map.

So, and another quick question cuz uh you know, we have a home and it's actually in a business, it's actually in the business. So, in the business zone. So, for those of us, if our house burned down, is it non-conforming then and we wouldn't be able to rebuild it? Well, there's there's provisions in our our code about non-conforming uses being allowed to continue. Um, if it is a totally um removed use and rebuilt, that may become an issue if um there aren't specific provisions included in any code amendment that would um allow maybe pre-existing uses. So that that would be something that we would have to take kind of a finer grain approach to. But currently um actually currently that a single family home is a conditional use. So it's technically um would I I believe would require a conditional use permit if you were going to have to rebuild it.

Who issues the conditional use permit? Sorry. Who issues the condition?

That would be the town board. It goes into a process like a site plan. It would go to the planning commission for recommendation and then the town board for approval. So, it would be possible that it wouldn't be able to be rebuilt. Um, okay. Another another quick question. So, um, when we did the Riverwalk overlay district, we, one of the reasons we changed that was because, um, somebody wanted to build a single family residence and we, we added the commercial uh, requirement in there for uh, for that. Why at that time didn't we look at other at that at this issue at that time if it was indeed a a a problem for us that we don't have enough commercially zoned prop business zoned property? Why wasn't it looked at at that time? I'm just curious.

I not being with the town. I don't know if I could speak to that Garrett or maybe Michael you have any

I can take a stab at that. Sure. Um part of the discussion of that was there was we were gaining some traction on interest and development interested on Clayton Court which was non-existent for a long time. Uh that was a trailer park for for the uh all the history leading up to now um to my knowledge. And with that development interest coming in and uh the acknowledgement of the value of the Frasier River Trail and the Frasier River Walk areas, um it was identified just as a an area to look at reconsideration that zoning um to to really highlight those different areas and the potential for a commercial venue located in our in the downtown areas of Frraasier right along the Frasier River Trail to be able to uh really just use that I think as an economic driver and really to see to to showcase and and provide for the development that the community really wanted to see um along the Frasier River which there used to be you know the Finneans used to be down there that restaurant right on the river and has since you know changed to residential um and uh and it was as as things have been progressing and and more development been taking place in Frraasier um that area was just kind of highlighted as a topic of discussion and went through a workshop series just like this. We'll go through um with community uh input and to see what the town and uh the planning commission town board ultimately want to to do um for those areas. So we went through that exercise for that and really looking to preserve the sales tax of uh current and future um uh properties there in Frraasier which is very similar to the discussion here for the business owning. Does that make sense, Margaret?

Um, kind of. Um, yeah, there were there was certain certainly a lot of master plan, the downtown study, the low do study. Um, a lot of this focused in on that Riverwalk district, but as we focused in on that over the years, um, over these last last few years, we really began to focus in on Oldtown, too, along the highway and the existing businesses there. I mean, and all of this is driven by by a couple things. is we're a tourist based economy where sales tax is what keeps this town alive. I mean, we've got what is it? 5 mil levy is our property tax. 5.86 5 588

which is a min minimal mill levy to say the least to try and keep a town alive. So, it's always been the philosophy of the towns and up here all the years I've covered it for the newspapers and as as a town board member that we that we that we need to build infrastructure for tourists and for people that come here for the fact that we have literally thousands of beds that aren't very often occupied. uh we need to develop streets and keep that infrastructure without saddling the local residents with with high mill levies and and the expenses that can go along with trying to run this type of economy. So we've pro in some ways we've overly depended on sales tax. We've I don't I don't think we could ever up the sales tax again. It's uh what nine uh we're over 10% in Winter Park and we're what's our total sales tax in Frasier? It's nine. But well, but the total sales tax the county and everybody

I'm sorry 9.2 and the transit tax on 9.2%.

So So anyway, it's it's a it's it's it's a tough balancing act. And Clark commented earlier that we're we're doing better and we are, but we're still challenged with the fact that over half our town income comes out of a single store, the Safeway. And um it's it's it's difficult. And so we we're trying to preserve the business uses and and pres and encourage business uses in in the areas that that have been zoned business. So so it's it's a these are these are thorny questions and tough ones, but um I think that we're taking we're we're we're at least having this these discussions and trying to see what next steps might be. So anything else from the board here? That's well said,

Margaret. Just to follow up on a your your question about um existing non-conforming uses, our our code is currently written allows that um like a 9-month period. So, just to use your own example, if your house burned down, uh don't wish that on you obviously, but in that example, um if if your house was a total loss, I think so long as you applied for a site plan and received approval and got a building permit within 9 months, uh you would you would be in the clear. um anything beyond 9 months, our code states that if that non-conforming use is uh not active for that nine-month period, then any any further development has to conform with the current regulations.

So, that could be something that could be amended because it's unrealistic to expect you could design a house and get a building permit. Yeah, we want to link just about lost his house. I lost my house in Florida and and and it's already been a year since it went, you know, and we're still not we're still not, you know, building yet. So that nine months is unrealistic. Yeah, we should look at that. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. And I was going to bring that up. So, thank you, Commissioner Smith and others. Yes.

Any other input from the board?

Okay. And I I really respectfully request that the input from the audience deal specifically with this question. So anybody from the audience? Hi, it's Clark Lipkcom um again from Grand Park and um this is a broad question Andy so we're going to cover a lot of stuff so please don't interrupt me. Um, I won't get off topic on the broad subject of what is being discussed here. Um, my first question, you know, it's amazing that like when your staff asked, "Does anybody have questions or comments or ideas?" Like I never hear anyone other than Margaret. Good question, Margaret. Um, ask questions. It It's amazing to me. And it begs the questions, do you all understand what's going on or what we're doing or where we've been?

Mark, if you're gonna make these things personal, then I will cut you off. And on this, you know what the beautiful thing of our country is? Dissent and disagreement is not a real good question. Like you're a planning commission that's an advisory board and if you don't have any advice to give, you shouldn't be on the planning commission. You made some comments. I appreciate that. So now let me make mine and and I'm sorry if you can't handle the personal attack right at this point and listen to me. Okay. So my question is what is sir if you will not listen to me for

sir clerk I'm running this meeting I'm the chairman and I'm I respectfully requesting you abide by our town civility ordinance which does require that you not attack people personally and you keep it non-personal we keep it to the regulations then we can listen to you we'll keep our ears open you'll be able to make better points but please keep it non-personal I won't I won't get into your civility code and the violations of that that have happened here. But regardless, um, what is the goal? What's the goal of this, Clark? The goal is to move the town forward. Right now, we get $750,000 a year in property taxes,

which is how much bigger than it was when you moved here? It's considerably more. Thank you. But yeah, what are you spending on your metro district oversight? Five mills. We're talking about 5.8 88. We have a police department. We plow the streets, water and sewer. I mean, so the only way that we can afford to service your development and rendevous is to increase sales tax revenue because there's going to be a lot of roads to plow. There's going to be a lot of extra police. There's So, we are running a business. We're dependent on sales tax.

Okay. So, the goal is sales tax. Is that what I'm hearing? The goal is to get sales tax. Okay. That's what I want to know because I want to know what what the emergency was. There's no emergency. It's just the reality is we're sitting here of doing a comprehensive plan. Okay. And this is becomes obvious when we're in the budget season that we're looking at the budget and going, well, what as stewards of this community can we do and think forward 10 years down the road? Maybe everybody's going to order by Amazon. Hopefully not, but you know,

well, I've actually have that as one of my points. Um, but you know what? What I do know, the emergency that I've heard that we've had, and I appreciate that, Peggy, as a board member, you recognize there's not an emergency because you guys had an emergency ordinance on your agenda at last week's town board meeting. Um, and and so I agree there's not an emergency. Um, and if it's about sales tax and generating sales tax, I think there's lots of ways to try to focus on that that haven't been done. Uh, or and I have even a greater concern that's a far much and I'm not going to get into it, but it it is a a significant concern of the Grand Park homeowners. I've been in a bunch of homeowner meetings lately about the lack of maintenance on our streets. And since Allan Nordine has left literally our streets in your neighborhood, Mayor Cousins Meadow have not been cracked. Crack filled. And it's they are bad. Really bad. And you know, you were the mayor. Allan had a road plan. It was detailed. I'm very very concerned about where the focus is of the town and where the money is being spent. But I'll remind you that when I started here, the town had zero savings. Zero. Okay. And you have, I think, $18 million in fund balances roughly today. So, you're a far cry from where you were, Peggy. And that's because of developers like me and my ex partner, uh, and, you know, some other small business owners that have come in and done things, etc. And thankfully, you know, a robust tourist economy that keeps our Safeway jenning out the dollars. Andy, and I remember when City Market opened and oh my god, the sky was falling. I think you might have been on the board, Andy, when City Market opened in Graanby. Remember that?

Sure. Sky was falling when Winter Park said they were gonna develop a And then when Winter Park was doing the Exactly.

So, you know, I mean, I think I think the the being a developer for 30 years now and and I grew up in a really small town and that small town today is still 3,00 299 2,992 people, right? still still to this day same like you know if somebody dies and their kids replace them I guess um and that town economically has survived it's it's done fine but it can't you can't force demand where it doesn't exist and that's what you're trying to do and so we have a housing crisis and and I think that's admitted and I think this is largely driven by our last planning commission meeting where we brought forth a very wellthoughtout plan for Meer lot one and I think Peggy you said Clark's wiping off the commercial or something like that. No, what I'm trying to do is address our housing inventory issue and that plan had 240 approximate units, residential units in it and a little tiny piece of commercial in the front I believe. And and what I think is important to recognize um is that area um before well I bought I'm the one that changed the zoning. It was Forest Meadow Solar Subdivision. Andy, you you know this you were here when that was approved uh in the basically 798 to 81. Uh and and it went defunct. But we bought the Forest Meadow Solar Subdivision from Walter Meyer and we re we overlaid it with we didn't overlay it. We basically changed the zoning wholesale from that what was a kind of a PD plan I'll call it to the Bzone and we did that because of the flexibility and and at the time the town was very focused on more big box and they wanted Walmart, they wanted Home Depot, right? They wanted basically if

gosh if we could emulate Safeway two times over or even bigger oh my gosh think about how much money we would have as a town and it would be great. Um so so that's why we went through that reasonzoning and but that resoning also had the flexibility for residential and that was studied by us because we're like what if that demand doesn't exist? What if we can't get those big box guys right? So roughly 22 years has passed since we bought that land. And guess what? Walmart's closing stores today. Home Depot's closing stores today. They ain't coming. And we've wiped that off our plan. And rather we would like to focus on housing. And here's what I've learned by operating a few retail businesses here and and you know stuff, but I may have to consider some more. Um is employees. They have nowhere to live. Okay. So, none of you guys Well, one of you operates a business, but you a lot of your employees now live in Denver, right? And you reverse your system. You don't have drivers in Denver parked anymore.

Zero. Okay. I thought you did the reverse thing where you had them down there and they were driving up here and going back and forth. So, anyway, good on you for employing local people. That's what I've been also Clark. So, what's that? I've been employing seven to 10 people every year. And that's awesome. But my point is Andy as business you are a contractor. I thought you had retired and not doing that anymore. But the point is one of the hardest things that every employer faces here is a stable, reliable, solid workforce. Sure.

And moreover having customers other than you know there's six great weeks a year. Okay? And I'm happy to share charts and show you those six great weeks. I know you know those six weeks. You probably live off of them the same as I do. And then there's six months that are okay. And then there's four and a half months that are really not great, guys. Yeah.

And and and so I think it's a misconception and a farce, frankly, to um think you can force commercial development particularly with a cost of construction of building nice new places and places that demand and then and then to fill them. Okay, so let's fast forward today. We have Arrow in Winter Park. It's been sitting empty now for six years. Okay, they have one lease signed for a very small space. I I know the guy. I wish him great luck. Um but six years it's been sitting there. Now think about the boom that Winter Park went through and that space is still sitting empty. Why? Um when did Clark did they finish that? Six years ago. No. No.

No. The building shell has been finished and it's been sitting. The the commercial on the first floor has been sitting for six years

and it was driven by that commercial on the first floor. If you talk to Brian Novak, he wanted to change that to residential, which frankly they could use for the strip center across the street. Winter Parks code prompted the, you know, front 70 ft of Highway 40 has to be commercial. He went, I think two or three times with them and asked them to change it and or to give him a variance because he had this big residential demand. He sold the condos on the upper level and paid for the space below. But meanwhile, it sat empty and it literally has been it's been years. We at Market Street uh and we don't need to belabor the fact that you know it is like it is but it's getting finished. It's 40,000 square feet of Shell. I have zero leases. Zero. Okay. Now, the other thing is we could put uses in there that don't generate any sales tax. Okay. that doesn't really do anything to help the town in in terms of what your goal is, Peggy, and I appreciate the collaborative discussion because I think that's what we need more of. Um, and I guess the point I'm saying is, do we really have the demand for commercial, right? I mean, between Arrow and Market Street, we

do not have the demand right now, but I expect when you get built out, there's going to be a lot of demand. if it's nothing else than just restaurants. So just ju just uh throwing an idea out, Clark, is it possible in a building to do your first floor that could be commercial in the future and use it as residential until that demand happens? So you design with high ceilings of possibility of your first floor becoming commercial when the demand happens. Yes, it's it's it's it's it is it's expensive. Mhm.

Um, and like it depends too on how you do the heat and air. I mean, you're talking about gutting a residential unit. Residential is probably way more expensive to finish out than commercial when you're talking about big spaces. Yeah.

And and you're not going to gut it. I mean, what what I have seen uh and we have some of them in our uh current uh plan for my lot one is I call them man caves, but but really they were industrial work. Uh and that is commercial on the first floor. theoretically if if let's say an electrician bought it and was using it as a warehouse but they had 12 foot high garage doors um and that that would be an easy one to actually repurpose later as residential if that demand there I think you're more likely I actually had somebody trying to buy my garages on um behind the brewery I don't know what alley am I on there uh Garrett but basically the building that Katherine lives in that's the duplex um and I own two of the garages that for Paul Jones that are right behind the brewery and they wanted to convert them to residential. So, I think there's it's there's more of a residential demand and need today. People are just looking for a space. I mean, I had a a a girl that moved into um she was actually a really good friend. She was living in a garage in Frraasier and moved into one of our apartments above the ski broker.

So, you see our dilemma. It's your dilemma too, Clark. It's just chicken and egg. So, so, so once we once we lose uh these business parcels to purely residential, then there there's no bringing them back. Well, but I mean, I think this is where the analysis is kind of flawed. Yeah. And and with all due respect to Allen and your staff, you're you're studying towns that have no relevancy or comparison to Frasier. Okay. You're studying towns that have full-time populations year round that the businesses don't have the cycles that we have. And I highly doubt we'll ever be in a situation where we have no offseasons. Okay. Just given where we're at. Okay. And county has some parallels. Don't you believe? Or

Well, very little. And here's the difference of Summit County and Steamboat. I I I have a home in Steamboat. And um I spent a lot of time in Steamboat. I have a lot of friends in Steamboat now. And I know a lot of the business owners in Steamboat. Steamboat has a 15,000 person year- round population. Right. Okay. I hosted the mountain bike, the high school mountain bike team, state champs, division one state champs. We beat Golden and Boulder and a bunch of pretty cool. Hosted a hundred people last night at my house. And actually, I had this discussion with a guys like I'm like trying to go out for dinner and it's like offseason, but it's hard to go out for dinner. Okay. So, the locals there go out to dinner during the offseason. Now, there's 15,000 people. Sure. Yeah.

In town. Okay. And there's full services. It's like you you have a full hospital, you have full schools largely driven by schools. Think that what we do when we get we could reach that kind of population level. You know what? You're not going to be alive and I'm not going to be alive when that happens. And the main thing is to make the town successful today so that it can think about how it can grow. But once we lose these business owned parcels to residential, two generations from now, they don't get them back.

No, that's not true. Because like for instance, you know, if if the demand is strong enough, then Margaret who has a cool house uh on the in the river district and it's Bzone, uh she can scrape her place and turn it to commercial. I've actually seen that happen in areas in Florida.

We have to be thinking further down the road. I mean, Clark, I was in Vale in 1969. I had no idea what it was going to be like. And you have to start thinking steamboat. We could become the next steamboat. And having a commercial along the highway is critical to steamboat. It's critical to Frisco. We didn't even You talked about the main street in Frisco. But what about Highway 9? What about what goes on in

Breenri? Let's talk about Highway 9. Okay. It was strip center hell, right? And we don't want strip center hell in Frraasier. I mean, that is the uniqueness of what we have. by me saying there aren't there going to be no big boxes on this on my lot one and two that's avoiding and I had a really good friend that moved from Aspen to Silverthorn and was at Alpine he's still at Alpine Bank 30 years later he's kind of the same job like me u but he was in Silverthorn at Alpine Bank for a long time he's like I I can't believe I moved over here from Aspen this is now this was like 15 years ago fast forward um Highway 9 and Silverthorn coming from Kremling has literally totally been transformed from what what I would characterize I don't know if yall have been over there but you should go look at it strip center hill

okay another great one to look at um and and not dictated by the town but driven by a a you know a very you know um creative couple is Bu a Vista South Main okay that doesn't force commercial it it rather um kind of provides for it in a fashion and what it did it actually remade their main street. Like their whole main street now is actually pretty cool. I was over there for a mountain bike race about 3 weeks ago. It's pretty fabulous. Um all driven by a really cool, you know, hotel that they did in a third park along the river. But it's cool. But Buista did that neighborhood of mixed residential and commercial too over on the river. Right.

That's what I'm talking about. It's called South Main. Yeah. Yeah. It was a couple. It was It's not a couple. It's a brother sister. Yeah. Uh that did that and it was driven largely by the Surf Hotel and then all that River Park stuff that they did. Um but similarly like you know talking I was over there for a long weekend and talking to the business owners etc like yeah it's busy like now and during the summer winter like ghost town. Yeah.

Right. But but it it encouraged development on their main street and I think what we need to do is we need to be setting examples of highquality experiences that that work like I mean credit Nathan the vicious cycle. I mean you know I that it seems like there's cars there and it's busy and steady all the time. I will tell you, and I think he will support this, that it's largely driven by the residential that we built around it. It's like the neighborhood bar. I can walk down there and I might run into Brian or I might run into another neighbor. Um, it is driven by that. And that gets to the heart of what I wanted to talk about is we today, you're worried about space. I'm not worried about space. and we have um in other words I think you need to not do anything with respect to this Bzone area. Um there's only I think maybe three or four parals. I mean think about like the summerall partial the OVR5 parals next to your house Brian. I mean what commercial could you possibly put there that would be viable that's surrounded by residential? It's it's Bzone. Okay. Like I I remember Steve used to talk about putting a pot shop there. That was his big thing. Somebody's going to put in a marijuana shop here. And I'm like that's about the only thing that would work with somebody having to drive to back then. But it was like fallacy. It's going to be all residential. We know that the town's seen multiple plans on what we're going to do there. And it only fits because it's surrounded by residential. Um that in turn will help Nathan and Vicious Cycle and it'll help parks at the coffee shop and all the other little retail businesses that are right there that they walk

40 so it's would be perfect for residential and well but I think that's the core question are is frontage I was going to be one of my questions around is frontage defined as highway 40 frontage well that's a big part of it but also as close to highway 40 as we can get okay but I mean it's got to be close to other commercial

there's got to still be demand you can't like fabricate demand Okay. And and if demand's there, private sector guys like me will come in and make hay with the demand. If the demand doesn't exist, you've got to somehow nurse it along to get some kind of prompt like a surf hotel to cause it to happen. I mean, without that, I mean, Wayne Vista, even Meredith, my wife, was like, "This is like a different place than it was the last time we were there." And it is. Um, it's still very small, but it it's very different. And I think the the the predominant thing that is is kind of missed over and over again and I really think the town is hyperfocused on its river district and the St. Louis landing and that whole corridor and frankly it doesn't look great. I agree with that. And I mean there's lots of issues there. The trailer parks are kind of going away. They probably could have gone away faster if Greg and Kevin's projects could move along a little smoother and faster. But

but but Clark, that's a perfect example. When that when that first went up for sale, we had several buyers that came forward that wanted to put houses down there along the river and that that district would have been lost. Yeah. But okay, Andy, let's talk about that here. Here's where here's where I think you all made a critical mistake in your river district and your design guidelines. And and getting back to my point about not studying and not opining, if you have an opinion as to how things should be done, Greg and Kevin built residential right on the river. Yeah. And where's their commercial on the street?

I thought we were creating a river walk with commercial like I mean I go to Taco Cabo almost every Saturday morning and have a breakfast burrito on the Yampa River, right? and hang out with Kent and you know have I mean that that experience is what I thought you were trying to create. Okay. For whatever reason, okay, your consultants didn't get that message. Your staff didn't get that message. And then when it happened, I remember sitting here and everybody's like, "What do you mean the commercials not on the river?" Do y'all remember that? Yeah.

Okay. But I mean, guys, this is the kind of stuff I eat, live, and breathe this. Y'all are volunteers advising, but I literally study these towns. I study how they work. I live in these towns. I've raised my kids in these towns and and it's just like a lot of things happen that are so frustrating. Another idea, you know, change in direction here would be to look at our business zone and do some resoning.

Would that make some more sense? Because, you know, as Peggy said, close to 40. I mean, we're it seems like it maybe this may be the right time to really look at the business zone and decide if we need to and talk to property owners, look at the market conditions, think about the future this through the town master plan that we're working on right now. Is this the time that we need to look at at our business? Well, here here's my kind of thoughts on that. I'm going to jump down. Um, sorry to keep interrupting. No, no. I I appreciate the dialogue and and just bear with me because I'm going to kind of bounce around on my notes that I just kind of wrote to myself. Um, Rendevu has 60,000 square feet of commercial. Okay. In their density, they have 130 lodging units. They're building roughly on

I think they only have 20,000 is what I just

No, no, they have 60,000 and I know this for sure because I was actually just working on something for the water plan and and it's part of our partition agreement and I was deep into densities and I've been on with Jeff Sheet. So, they have 60,000 square feet of commercial. Um they built the bank building uh and that's it, right? Which doesn't generate sales tax for the town but meets kind of commercial demand. They've got the hotel lodge that should generate good sales tax um and lodging tax for the town. That's a those guys are great. Don and Grant are awesome. I think that's going to be a fabulous successful project. Um I think 102 units. So you know theoretically they'll have 28 units left. Okay. So that's on the east side of 40 down on the south end of town, you know, next to me. Um, Grand Park has 360,000 square ft of density. Um, and and Garrett, correct me if I'm off a little bit, but it's a lot. So, it could be plus or minus, but it's a lot. Um and we have not including the rendevous lodging we have I think it was 1456 in the original PDD I think we have 1396 so we have 1396 lawsuits and I I highly doubt all of that I know the commercial unless something dramatically changes does not get built to that level okay because I don't have anybody contacting us now about the 40 that we have built and that doesn't include like the bowling alley theater which was on a different lot you know that's separate but you do take out my office the rec center doesn't count against that so that's more square footage that's not in that 360 but I mean generally speaking today we have taking out market street taking out the

hospital and taking out my office 300,000 square feet ballpark that we could still you know be building and there's land to do it So, I mean, you guys are focused on land availability. We're having fights over over where I put open space and my private open space. So, I mean, think about how contradictory some of these discussions are. It it's it's very frustrating when you're in my shoes. Uh, if if there were demand for that commercial, I can promise you it would all be built. And y'all heard me the other night with that the ones that are on the board that you know I made a personal decision bad decision and and built move forward the market street buildings when my very intelligent very smart partner was going Clark I would rather not do this and for me it was emotional it was emotional decision I find when you make emotional decisions in business they generally don't work um but I was tired of looking the gravel lots and wanted to go fulfill at least a part of this idea that we had and maybe I'll be wrong and one day it'll be the surf hotel that was the impetus to like push it all along. Well, we thought the rec center would help and then we thought the bowling alley would help and and I think those things have helped make Frasier more attractive. Like one thing I heard last night at the party was I can't believe we don't have a good rec center in Steamboat. Right. This was from people there. We have a better rec center than basically most of the towns except maybe some of the front wage front range ones that you studied. I mean, we do have some really great facilities here, but yet we still don't have that commercial demand. And I think what I'm I'm going to kind of leave you with because I could go on all night long about this particular subject, um, it's population. And the core difference in what he studied in our little town is full-time population. And and how do you get a larger full-time population? Okay. And I know

every one of our businesses struggle to get by. They own their jobs, okay? They're not killing it. They are literally making wages owning their They're their own boss. And I know a lot of them really like that, but they struggle. And I know that because I own businesses and people go, "Oh, they're those are great." They're they're not killing it, okay? They're getting by. Um, and you know, I I think until we see businesses flourish, the demand's just not there for more business. So, it begs the question, how do we garner more sales stacks,

right? Which I think there I agree with you totally that we need to focus on more full-time residents. I think they're right over the hill. They'd love to live here if there was some commercial and some things that I talked to people and like why would I move up here? There's nothing to do. Well, I said, what do you want to do? I want to shop. I want to go out to dinner. So, those people want to be here. And you've got lots of land. You got 300 acres in Buyers Creek Ranch. It's flat. Easy bill. Could be really easy if you brought it into the town. We'd have a expedited approval process. So, she's never going to give that up, Amy. I'm not going to give it up.

Me neither. But there is a lot of acreage over there and you could fill that up and we could have a new school. We could have sales tax revenue. We could have people eating and shopping and everybody'd be happy, including you. sold. Well, let's I think those are great dreams and I think we should work together, but at the end of the day, to garner the the capital um and to get the investment, we've got to have more robust performance by current businesses because that's what people look at. Those people are happy to share, right, when somebody calls and like, I'm thinking about doing another restaurant or doing a new restaurant. The chicken of the ski shop conundrum.

Oh my gosh. I mean, it's like, listen, if it weren't for the ski rental business, I wouldn't still be in the ski shop business. Yeah. Right. And I mean, you know, I think we have the biggest ski retail shop in town, including Winter Park. Maybe the ski area is maybe a little bigger, but I mean, we have an enormous amount of retail, and I wish I didn't. And I think if you're truly worried about sales tax, you have to look at um the growth of you know the the the state passed a law that if if online sales are sold into an area, then those have to pay sales tax. So the one place that was up in your sales tax report last week was online sales. Online sales 17%. 17% increase guys. That's not going away.

Yeah. Okay. I just think they Amazon.3 billion packages. People who come here think this is a third world country because they can't believe that we don't have any services. And we all have lived here long enough and we've evolved and we think Amazon's the greatest thing that ever happened because we're got used to driving. Don't leave out Murdoch. So listen, I don't go I just had somebody's like, "Hey, why don't you come down to Denver and go out to happy hour?" This is like I I basically avoid Denver like the plague. I like my small town, Mountain Living, and and you know, I only go there if it's if I absolutely absolutely have to. I have no desire to be down there.

And I truly feel that way. You like what you're talking about are the social cultural weaknesses of Winter Park Frasier that have existed and were far greater before I started our development. They were far greater. I was instrumental and helped amongst a number of other people that were instrumental to help bring the rec center along that had failed two times before. The bowling theater was, you know, I made zero on that, right? The medical center, another bucket list of mine. Okay. I have families with kids that have left when their kids got out of fifth grade because we don't have a 6 through 12 school right here. You want to know when the predominant differences

takes population? Yeah. Crested but um Telleurai I have a good very good personal friend living in Telleluride that moved there full-time that was a ski bum with me years ago. Um uh Aspen Baltt frankly even Vale. It the big difference is schools. You know what his study doesn't talk about? All those towns that he just referenced, almost every single one of them with the exception of Breen Ridge and Silverthorn have schools in their backyard. And I've heard you pegged so many times talk about Crested B. But that's but that's the school question. But it's not Andy. It's a population too. Okay. But we're talking economic development and sales tax. Yeah. It is a direct correlation.

Sure. Okay. And this 300, we can't do two of them. But let me just tell you something. The East Grand School District, yeah, is not going to come put a school in Frasier Winter Park without Frraasier and the town of Winter Park pressing for that school. Sure. They're not. But not with the population we have today either. And that's Well, that's not that's just Okay, but you're putting your school hat on because I know your dad was the superintendent or principal years ago. Except but schools, you know, let me tell you what I know. I grew up in I graduated in a school of 56 in my grade. Yeah. Okay. Crested but has like 55. Uh Telluride I think is just a hair over 60. Okay.

I mean these schools are like Kremlings. Kremling can have a school and we can't. Let's let's let's come back to the basics. But I mean this is about sales sacks. And so it's we talking about core question. How do you get a more robust full-time population?

And I go and I will go this last this next Friday night is the la this coming Friday night. the last home football game I think is I go to these home high school football games guys I think I'm like back in high school in Texas I mean oh my gosh you go to this game in Graanby and there's nobody in the stands the entire town is at these football games right and it's in the center of town and you literally can walk you know two blocks to Main Street what you have is a younger population with kids that can spend honey that are raising their kids in these towns and I'm a poster child for what happens when your wife says I'm not doing junior high in

Grammy 25 miles away and and that's not a knock on the door 16 miles away okay but regardless whatever I mean you don't live in small town America for your kids to go and so that is the last item on my bucket list with you you all know I tried very hard to get. But I truly believe and I I can site several Cousins Meadow homeowners that all raised their kids here until fifth grade, still own their homes and are in Denver at schools in Denver with their kids. Okay. Um and and and that is a loss though, Andy, of really a 365 day spender to maybe a weekend a month. Yeah.

And they'll stop at Whole Foods coming up and not even hit our Safeway. So there's two key components I think we need to focus on to really help with the economic development. And it's not a lack of land. Okay. Because I mean frankly, let's say the demand existed, Peggy, and we have all that land that you were just hiding. You you [clears throat] just go and change the zoning on some of that land. If the demand were really there, I'd be in here with zoning changes saying, "Guys, I don't need residential. I need lodging and I need commercial." So that's not the case. Let's come back to the zoning question then. That would be a better way to approach this it sounds like.

Well, and I I don't think it's Yeah, but I mean it's it's we don't I guess my point is there's not an emergency. You should not be doing moratoriums. Instead, you should be I'm focused on what I can fix and where there is demand, which is housing inventory. And I've got really a three-prongong. I mean, we've got the housing we're building that's for sale, which, you know, Peggy, we'd love you to sell a home someday for us. Uh, and that's a more expensive, nicer, you know, very customized homes. We've got our apartment product that we're now going hard and heavy on. That's a whole another component of our portfolio. Hallelujah. That that's finally going. The low-inccome piece was great, but the rest of the stuff that we're doing is free market, but again, it's inventory driven and it it's great units. And I think where we've run our rents, um, you're going to find that it's what everybody classifies as middle income, right? My rents are modeled at what y'all rent, your rents are. Actually, mine are actually lower than what yours are now. But I don't have a deed restriction on it, right? But I'm building it with private investment. I have private bank financing on it, and that's what it takes. But I don't have rents that are even close to what some of the people are being charged today here. Okay. And Andy, what that's geared towards, that's geared towards addressing the employee issue.

Sure. Okay. and and I firsthand know the employee issue very well. So I feel like if we can get housing inventory that starts to address even that transient like a lot of people don't necessarily need to or want to buy their homes. They don't want to take that step or have that responsibility and and maybe they just want to rent. and when we are a transient community particularly for the service worker industry and a lot of the really younger kids are going to come here and be here two or three years and maybe move on etc. So I think first step is housing and an ideal spot for the housing is my lot one and it was almost all housing when it was Forest Meadow Solar when I bought it.

Oh it was going to be his pop-up sewer plant. Remember that what? No, no, no. That was on a piece across the street. That's on that's actually on my lot too. Well, I get confused with still that actually is still on the books because we have to keep those scary just a week away. But I would I you know, here's a hard thing. I would need that's commercial, by the way, the sewer plant. Uh and I would need employees to be able to run the sewer plant. So, we need housing first to address the employee issue. But, but those employees and and I liken back when I was a ski bomb. I went out every night, spent my paycheck, you know, I lived right in town. And y'all have heard me say more times than I can count, I want every employee in our town to be able to ride their bike or walk to work. Yeah.

I don't want them going on a bus and going to Grahamby. I don't want to be paying for a bus going to Graby. Oh, by the way, or subsidizing one or hot sulfur or I mean, when you look at the the evolution of ski towns just since I lived in Colorado, just since the early 90s, literally the migration down valley is is massive except in our valley. Okay? And why is that? Because we still have all this land. We are missing a lot of those social cultural elements but I mean Telide their workforce lives in Montro right Crested but lives in what's Gunnison Gunnison

um I mean you go down through all of them I stayed in Basalt this last weekend for the state mountain bike races at a friend's house that used to live in Aspen right basalt Carbondale heck they're all the way down to gypsum and rifle and same thing with veil veil is a gypsum and rifle we can avoid that and have this critical mass that is getting paid paid to do their jobs and then going out and creating, by the way, that social element that you're talking about. That's what it takes to create it. Then they're helping to sustain the breweries and the bars and the restaurants. That's what has to happen. But you can't force someone to go do commercial. Okay? This land has sat forcing anybody to do anything. We're just trying to protect the opportunity for future use. But you but it discourages investment in the community and investment in the community

land that you can develop.

Hey, if I had we have we can put all the commercial the town could ever handle down at the village at Grand Park. Okay. There's there's no demand. We have to solve for the problem. And what you want is you want really nice restaurants to go to and you want to have nice plays to go to or music events to go to. I get it. I understand it. Right. I I don't know that I can ever get my wife to move back here, okay? But I'm not leaving here. I'd rather be here, frankly. I think we have the best recreation there is, period, in the state of Colorado. Um, and I think we're sorely lacking on social cultural elements, but nobody I mean, even Bob F has tried to do this kind of stuff. There's there the demand is not there because the population's not there.

So, trying to change zoning. Hang on, let me change zoning to force someone to forego putting residential where they otherwise would because they want commercial on the bottom floor. You're going to end up with that land sitting empty for another 50 or 100 years, right? And that's not good for our town. It's not good for employment.

Okay? So, I'm going to leave two key components. If you want commercial demand, you got to focus on having housing and diverse housing and and we are doing a lesser expense. I call it an apartment style condominium that we are going to sell. We're going to have four rent and four cell product that's at a lesser price point than our very custom condominiums. And and again, that allows those people that want to commit and be here longer at a lower price point because it's about all we can do. I had micro cottages 123 on 12 acres. It was awesome. Took me six years to get approved by the county. Got killed by the county. It's in a lawsuit currently. And it was at Buyers Peak Ranch, Peggy. And that was exactly the goal. If I had that product today, oh my gosh, it would be flying. It was beautiful. It would have been cool. And it would have been putting a lot of people right here where they can walk to the brewery here.

We can, you know, we could put it in the town. Yeah. But I I don't know what kind of zoning we'd put on. I'd be afraid y'all to change it and require me to make it all commercial. So, but the long and the short guys is I really think you're going down the wrong path. It's it's a little misguided and it neglects what is already approved to happen in the town that is strict commercial and lodging zoning particularly when you factor in rendevous and grand park and what you're doing is not helpful to drawing investment or creating employment etc. So let's focus on the two key issues. And the second one, let's get six through 12 schools here. Okay. I know Andy disagrees with that, but I know some people agree.

That's another question. So let's focus on this one. Okay. But I mean that will Andy that will Okay, this from the sales tax perspective that will drive sales tax like you can't believe. And one reason Graanby will fight it is because they know the sales tax that brings to their town every day with parents delivering kids to school. Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it. Thank you. And u sorry sir when you come to the lectern just say your name please. Ryan Sharp helps helps and I'll tell you what I told the Grand County Rec board that I'm here to on be uh in the spirit of Johnny Cash to represent the poor and the beaten down living in the hopeless hungry side of town. Brian, I'm sorry. We're talking about the donate. Okay. If we could. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's getting late and we're I'm just trying to keep this moving along. So, well, I need to get time, too. Um,

just cuz I don't have millions of dollars doesn't mean I don't have a right to have equal time here. I I actually think uh I was involved in a lot of the planning down in Puna Gorda, which is a very similar size town. Uh, I stood in front of 6,000 people at a convention center and we I heard comments like, "Well, we want a this is a resort community, you know, we want art centers. We want all this." And I said I said in front of 6,000 people, I said, "Somebody has to flip your damn burgers. Somebody has to work. There's no such thing as a resort community of all wealthy people because somebody, my wife has to work at the stores. Somebody has to work and flip the burgers. Somebody has to uh my pastor, he he's a janitor uh part-time. So, I agree there. I think there's there's a lot of what Peggy said is exactly right. There's a lot of what Clark says is exactly right. Uh we we uh we can't go out to eat. We go to uh Wendy's on Sunday morning and get their two for three meal and that's it. We can't eat anywhere else. There's nowhere else in this town we can afford to eat. So at the same time, housing is an issue. So you Yeah, you have to have a place to live, but you've also got to have a place you can actually go out and eat. We we go to Granby. You talk about Safeway. Safeway is a joke. We go to Granby to City Market to buy food. Uh, and believe me, we don't buy meat. I haven't had meat in ever since I got here. I can't afford it. Um, I think he's got I think he's got a good plan. Uh they they tried to work this out in Puna Gorda down there where uh you know

the the people for housing was fighting over downtown land uh which was 10 times less square foot than what you guys got. Uh the people for commercial were fighting over you know let's make it all commercial. what they ended up doing, which is what they should what all counties I think should do is is have the uh residential option, mixeduse option, and allow people to live in the basement or on the second floor. I think that that uh solves a lot of your issue right there. Um, but we we you know, I agree with Peggy and I agree with Clark both. We we've got to have uh and I know nobody likes to talk about um Taco Bell and Walmart, but god damn it, we need it. We need it to survive.

We can't survive on uh Wendy's and then and then try to get by with one. We go to City Market and we go to Wendy's. That's it.

And yet we're working here. Uh, I know every resident that works over or every person that works over there at the uh, ski lodge, none of them, most of them don't even have transportation. They ride their bikes to work. Uh, and certainly they don't go out to eat. So, you know, you talk about businesses, uh, if you don't if you don't allow development, and you don't allow Walmart, you don't allow these places, um, you're not going to have a anybody that actually will flip the burgers for the wealthy. It takes both. There's no such thing as just a retirement community. And I I I proved this down in Puda Gorda. They had this mentality. And and two years after I made that speech, all the restaurants were gone. You go to Chili's, you go to they had a nice uh Steak and Shake. You go there and there's a lock on the door. It's not because there's a problem with the building. It's because they couldn't nobody could work there. The library closed down because they couldn't afford to. So,

I'm sorry. Could you just Yeah. make your point? And we're we're trying to keep this thing moving along. We're talking about this specific zoning question and it's interesting the history down there, but we're

Well, and as far as your zoning map, again, I I agree with Clark. You got you got plenty of land here. It's just you got a bunch of environmentalists that are running this thing that are afraid the bears and afraid all this stuff's going to get killed. Uh they had a moose over there at the uh right there at uh Trails in Merkantile, somebody's going to get killed. because we can't, you know, take care of wildlife responsibly. Um, and actually remove the moose. Um, you know, again, I think there's too many environmentalists that are afraid the m scenes are going to be tore up here. And there's plenty of land for housing. There's plenty of land for commercial. So, I think you both need to increase uh, you know, I see open space up there on the map. Hell, that's plenty of room there to put a Walmart. Okay. Plenty of room to put housing.

Thank you. I appreciate your input. Thank you. Why do I only get five minutes and he gets 30? Because I don't have a million dollars. Thanks, Brian. Any other input? And I pay your taxes. Thank you, sir. And I flip your burgers and serve you guys while you're arguing over land. your name and where you live, please. Will McDonald. I live in uh Winter Park in Frraasier. Okay. Um I'll be quick. Thank you.

Um I was just listening online and I was just concerned um how I keep hearing the idea of a school getting shut down um based on our population. And when we don't have the population because we don't have the school, the chicken,

it's not chicken or the egg. there there's a clear difference between every other mountain town that Clark was was naming. Our ratio of housing to population is a fraction of every other ski town and it's because we don't have a school and that is the domino effect that is going to generate everything else that you guys are talking about with the zoning and the sales tax and that is the catalyst that needs to happen for everything else to happen that that we're talking about here and it is absolutely crucial. I've studied this my entire life. It is absolutely essential if you want to develop this community to start with the school and then everything else will fall into place. Thank you. Thank you, sir.

Thanks. Well, Parnell has his hand up.

All right. Thanks, Andy. Hey, U. I just wanted to say, you know, Clark hit on a lot of the stuff I had, so I won't regurgitate what he said. Um, Brian, the gentleman that spoke after him, I I feel your pain. Sometimes you don't get the time you want, but that's what happens. Um, however, Peggy, I agree with you. Uh, the future is unknown and taxes are how the town survives, and waiting [clears throat] for the compre comprehensive plan is not an emergency. If the need for more taxes is the town's goal, then you should let Grand Park build all the development they can north of the rec center and get out of the way of all other developers and understand the need for taxes is more important than the private open space near the highway. And one other thing, Peggy, the guy sitting next to you that's leading this town meeting, he's the reason Buyers Peak Ranch is not in the town.

Thank you. Thank you, Barnell. Okay. And so, Gregory uh Beckler has his hand up.

Hey guys, sorry I'm joining a little bit late and missed a lot of the conversation. So, if I say anything that uh you guys already talked about, forgive me, but um I kind of I saw the agenda and hopped on when I could. Um I think the town should really think hard about adding additional commercial restrictions right now anywhere. Um the area we develop in is the Riverwalk mixeduse district which has a mandatory commercial requirement and uh we've been building that our first development on Highway 40. We built it before the requirement was in place. our current development at Stro we've built that required retail and uh I have luckily buyers and in that retail for a 750 foot bakery that will not have a sidewalk in front of them may have utilities in front of them only because what we've done and so I think to say that you're going to require commercial anywhere else in the town where infrastructure is not there, sidewalks aren't there. You know, there's a big responsibility of the town to build out this infrastructure to require this sort of infill development. That to be honest, building in downtown is not infill development right now. It's it's greenscape. You got to bring infrastructure. It absolutely does not make financial sense. And so we can make sense of it in the Riverwalk district because of density bonuses and whatnot, but I mean outside of what Clark's trying to do, I don't know what you guys discussed or what he has coming down the pike, but anyone trying to redevelop a lot in the

business district on a single family home lot and require commercial, zero chance they can make it pencil. And that's just my opinion. I do think there's a massive need for a vibrant commercial district. I think we have that with the Riverwalk district and I think we can build to that because of the density on top of it. But to require private developers, you know, forget me, forget Clark, forget anyone who's doing anything bigger. Someone to develop a, you know, 10,000 square foot lot with commercial with no sidewalk in front of them. Have them upgrade utilities, build a sidewalk, build infrastructure to have a real retail business. I just don't see that happening. So, you know, I don't I don't know what caused this moratorum to come to the board. And I apologize if I missed a lot of the conversation earlier tonight, but I I don't see how requiring commercial throughout the business district when half of its residential homes right now makes any sense. So, if I miss something, forgive me, but just from jumping in late, that's my two cents. Thank you, sir. We have a hand up from Adriana Scott. Hi. Uh, this is Mike Scott right now. Adrienne's here with me. Uh, our question when Margaret was asking for the picture of the zoning areas, uh, and her area up there close to St. Louis, uh, Sun River Town Homes. It showed that all in red as business. Is that zone business now? Because it didn't used to be business where the town homes are at. And we own Sun River number seven.

I I can verify and follow up with you separately if you'd like to maybe email me, but my my understanding is I believe that area is currently zoned business. Yeah. Court zoning map. We we'd have to I guess dig into the property history to see if it was something else. And yeah, look look and see because uh it they zoned it for the garages and the warm store and we owned we've owned it almost 30 years there but Sun River Town Homes were not in the business that that was divided that plat. And if you look uh the last plat does not include the town home side of that.

Yeah. So that residential use was allowed in business when it was built and I don't believe there have been any major reasonzonings in this town for a long time. It it wasn't reszone business until Ron Jones owned it. If you'll look at that plat, you'll see where that only included that and the garage units in the warm store. Okay. Well, let's have our our town staff do some research on that if that'd be okay, Mike. That would be great. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Any other input?

Brandon Kleti Jung with Grand Park. Um I heard Brian and we all know this a lot and really trying to start to work a lot with the town and really build bridges instead of we don't want our history to be our future, right? And even in this hearing or meeting, Brian mentioned the citizens of this county or this town really need housing. And then to make a move of ordinance 527 to declare a state of emergency with imminent danger to public health because of an unmanageable influx of land use applications sends a very clear signal and flies in the face of what St. Louis is affordable housing what we build and bring to the market tons of housing. And if we're able to, for instance, the Mill River Apartments, which maybe one day we could get it back into the town, but 427 apartment buildings that come online immediately reduces it it it encourages competition and reduces housing across the board. So, when looking at ordinance 527 and how I mean, what where's Spring Hill Suites employees going to live? I mean, it's a big hotel, big operation. And going back to the point that's been pretty salient throughout the entire night is residential or homes first that then drive commercial and doing things like ordinance 527 to the citizens. It seems like a witch hunt and very directed. There's no other land use applications that have come in. and then to try and use an a declaration of emergency and using police power to to move this agenda forward, whatever that agenda is. I'm still confused as to are we partners or not. Does the town

and its citizens think that the market at Village uh the the Village Street Market is a good thing, right? I mean, I would have loved to have seen that been completed five years ago. Developer would have loved to seen that completed five years ago. costs a lot of money to get into these things and it continues to happen. And really what we want to do is partner with you guys to get what the citizens are screaming at the top of their lungs what they want and desperately need. So when ordinance 527 comes up in public hearings and stuff like this, expect a lot of people to show up for it because declaring a state of emergency around a reszoning deal to restrict the very needed housing is very convoluted and contradictory all in one little nice parcel. And ordinance 527 really shows that, you know, declaring a state of emergency to reszone to get residential out of a Bzon district on on this. We just need to be really careful and it's really our intent and drive to work closer with you guys and really build bridges, not let our past be our future. Thanks for the time, guys.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Brandon. I think it's an opportunity for the town to educate the public on how important sales tax is to this community and if we develop everything residential, we won't have any sales tax. So, it's it is a process. Uh it's a dialogue that we're having now. It's a planning process and that's what we're starting. Today is day one. It's not going to happen overnight, but I think the community needs to understand that we don't run on property taxes. You know, you have to start somewhere. All All it does is put it on pause

so that we can discuss it. That's all it does. Brings more because it brings it to the safe way. Let's come back to the lecture. Okay. So, okay. Thank you. Yeah. So so any more other board discussion? This is just a discussion. A lot of good points have been made. There's a lot more that we need to discuss um regarding all this stuff and more discussions will happen and so thanks for everybody all their input. Um no decisions are going to get made tonight. So yeah. Okay. Um yeah, it's it's an important topic and it's good that we have concerned citizens.

Yeah. Anything else? Okay. So, any other business from the board? Okay. Um, any future agenda items? We've got a reminder next meeting is November 12th. Mhm. So, that's the master the part of that agenda will be the master plan. So, to discuss that, correct? Yeah. We'll bring the comprehensive plan forward for review, discussion, and hopefully a recommendation of adoption. Okay. Anything else? I don't think so. Take a motion to adjourn. To adjourn. I'll second it. All in favor?