Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

much. So was likely for that. Yeah, that that gas system admittedly my service line gas fired wall. So that around

Yeah. I remember being on a call. It made me jump. That was felt like it was really You got me still.

Yeah. Yeah.

Phoenix But I don't make sure it's got true. [Music] Margaret BS, Katie Souls,

Brian Svenic, Bob Gy, Peggy just stepped out for a second. Is Joy online? Nope. No, no Joy. So, yeah, Peggy will be back in here. Here she is. Nope. That's Clarks. So Peggy was is is here. Peggy Smith. She'll sign in a minute. And then Andy Miller. Okay. So we do have a quorum still even with Peggy not here. So just a motion. There she is. Sorry Peggy. So this report is here. In Peg Orange Peggy Smith.

Okay. So I call for a motion for an approval of the agenda. So moved. I'll second it. All in favor? I. Thank you. On approval of the consent agenda, which is the minutes from August 27th. So moved. Second. All in favor? I. I.

Thank you. Okay. So, open form. Anybody wants to speak in open form tonight about matters that are not on the agenda? Anybody online? and actor. Okay, thank you. So, our first agenda item is discussion and possible action on a draft code amendment prohibition of nonfunctional turf. So, if we could get a staff report on this, that'd be great. And Alan will be doing the uh presentation on this item.

Good evening, planning commissioners. One second here. Um I am Alan Celiff, assistant planner. Uh tonight I'll be presenting on a proposed amendment to chapter 19 regarding the prohibition of non-functional turf. So this is a landscaping code amendment um uh originating from recent state legislation. So the the titles here Senate Bill 2405 and House Bill 251113. Um these have been enacted in the past two years. Um and generally these bills encourage water-wise landscaping by limiting non-native and high water use turf landscaping. Um so um this is outgrowth of um kind of higher level state policy in terms of water- wise management um state state level policy guidance on conservation of water and then there's a few other pro um provisions in these bills uh relating to restriction of artificial turf um and then um prohibiting non-native invasive plant species Um Senate Bill 2405 originally did not apply to any residential development, but House Bill 25 uh 11113 added um that residential developments with more than 12 units would be applicable. So that's why these are being um brought forward together here. They do have uh different compliance dates um stated up top. Um the original provisions um were only due to go into place by January 1st, 2026. And then the additional House Bill 25 provisions um are required by January 2028. We're proposing to bring these together as a single consolidated uh code amendment

for efficiency and implementation purposes. So the the bulk of my presentation here will go through um the code amendment and go through some of the definitions as outlined in the the um the staff report. But really a lot of this ties to specific code language in the state uh legislation that we want to bring forward to ensure maximum consistency. So the proposed code amendment to uh section 194160 landscaping and screening just adds a new subsection E at the end of the existing uh landscape requirements. It includes three different sections. Uh section one includes the prohibition on non-functional turf uh non-functional artificial turf and invasive plant species. Um states that they're prohibited in applicable property which is defined and then for new and redevelopment projects as defined. Section two just lists some of the common exemptions for that right off the bat. So you're not hunting around with where it applies to. Basically, it applies to anything besides uh these A, B, and C's, which are residential uses with less than 12 units. Uh civic, community, and recreational uses uh such as parks, athletic facilities, and event spaces. So, these don't apply to that. And then, um any integration as part of a professionally engineered design for for civil infrastructure. others. Um the the state legislation includes definitions that covers things like solid waste facilities, um slopes, channel, levies, kind of specific engineered um uses to to stabilize the grounds essentially. And then section three, which is the bulk of it, which is various definitions that are carried forward.

Yeah. What are what are brownfield sites? brown fields. Those would be like redevelopment sites, existing sites that may have in uh environmental contamination. Okay? As opposed to green field, which would be fresh development area that hadn't been developed before.

Um so the um state legislation requires or defines all these different terms. Uh we had we didn't include all of them. we included the ones that were applicable to the proposed code amendment and then in um some of the the main ones here for the slideshow but essentially where it's applicable or not. So applicable properties defined in the legislation as common interest property HOA basically. So um kind of common areas not not um privately held areas uh street rightway parking lots medians transportation corridors. So the so um you know landscape islands medians and highways things like that. And there's a few images later in the presentation. Um for the private development side of it, it would be commercial, institutional or industrial property as defined. So essentially non-residential uses and then um the House bill from this year which added residential property um for residential uses over 12 units. Um included in the definition specifically is commercial institutional industrial. It's pretty straightforward in the terms of the definition, but it does specify that it includes uh uses by local governments and schools. So, public property is included in this new development defined as uh new construction that requires and we tweaked this a little bit to fit um some of our nomenclature a little bit better, but building permits, site plan review, or other design review processes as a catch-all. um basically anything that has to go through a a review and approval process. And then redevelopment project would be uh projects that qualify for that and um include more than 50% of the existing landscape area. So, if it's something like building addition on top of a an existing

building or in addition to the building that isn't necessarily changing the um the circulation or the general balance of the site and landscaping, it may not qualify only if it's um proposing to to redo more than 50% of the existing landscape area. Um, all these different terms for turf, functional turf, and non-functional turf are included. I won't read through all of these, but um, these all are pulled straight from the the um, state statutes. Basically, turf is nonnative grasses and grasses that have um, not been hybridized for aid conditions. So, the, you know, the traditional turf lawn, high water use lawns. Again, these would are still fine for um like single family residential uses, lower um density residential uses, but it would be in the kind of more for aesthetics uh arena where they're they're not being actively used um for as part of a park or recreational area. So Alan, where does it include backyards if somebody wants to

Well, if it So remember the exemption list is anything any residential uses with less than 12 units. So if it's a um you know a house, a duplex, town homes that don't have 12 units, the this uh prohibition doesn't apply. So subdivision coming forward with 14 individual lots then this those on their own as individual lots is my reading of it is it would not apply the be on a lot by lot basis. Gotcha. Okay. So this doesn't apply to so yeah this wouldn't apply to to those circumstances. So a new subdivision with multiple lots as as long as they're not like an apartment building or a condo building with more than 12 units. It wouldn't apply.

And that new subdivision if there were common areas like it would cover those common areas. common areas um were designated for some type of actual kind of recreational use or um public use. Really, what these regulations are getting at is that there has to be kind of some some justification for the use of it if if they're being utilized in a in a recreational way or other way that was that's defined here. Let me go back here.

Yeah. So, how come it's I mean I would think that new areas coming into town would be required even if they built one house in a subdivision. I mean rendevous all not native grasses. We don't allow turf, right? And I mean just coming from the the state uh the uh legislature or the legislative perspective,

some of the um introductory language on it discussed it as as not not intending to upend common practices necessarily, not intending to um have great impacts, but really seeking to eliminate kind of the the most obvious examples of of wasted areas being turfed, but we could make it more stringent than what the state we can. Yeah. So, individual jurisdictions can can add on um if if they so choose. At this point, we're just discussion state requirements. So, yeah.

Okay. Let me just jump back in here. So, again, functional turf right on here. So, areas that are located and this is this describes it as as youth areas. So, not necessarily the, you know, whether it's residential or commercial right off the bat. Whether it applies or not is then determined um based on the the use. So, if it's regularly used for community, recreational, or civic uses, then a a turf is still allowed or an artificial turf is still allowed. It would just be those kind of excess areas, areas on the peripheral, areas that aren't integral to a to a function of a of an area. Um and then the non-functional definition here right off the bat not functional turf. So everything else but again goes on to explain that it includes these uh street rideways or uh these infrastructure projects. Just a couple of the photo examples. So I included in the packet was some links to some of the state uh state materials in terms of guidance. Um, obviously on the left here you've got a soccer field that's functional, whether it's um, you know, something at a school or something from a recck district. You know, that that one's an easy one. The one on the right here likely not Colorado um, but medians, highway ramps, areas within the ride ofway. U, this would be deemed nonfunctional. And again, this would just be kind of the the high water use turf. Nowhere in this does it say you can't have native grasses. It would be some other sort of landscape and a drought resistant or water-wise use of landscaping. That'll just require a little bit more thought and design potentially. So included in these in this prohibition is artificial turf. So, this one's a little bit um of a different perspective in terms of of of water savings,

obviously, but it's included um in order to uh address concerns with storm water runoff from um some of the artificial turfs out here. Uh chemical leeching into the into the runoff and then urban heat island effect was cited. So likely something that's more of a concern in in more urban areas, but it's included in the uh state prohibition. And then again, there's a carveout. This was added by the um by the house built this year that allows functional artificial turf essentially in all the same circumstances as functional turf, whether it's recreation purposes or um infrastructure projects. So again, an example here, golf course. If you're going to have artificial turf integrated into that, that's allowed as a recreational use. And then on the right here, not a lot of context. I'm guessing this is right outside of like a fenced off pool area. So my take of this is if it was inside the pool area, it would be part of the recreational use and probably okay. But since it's outside of it, it's just aesthetic. It's not being utilized for anything. It would be prohibited as artificial turf. So ultimately should this um be approved um implementation and impact we'll we're also adding uh just a cross reference in the code. This is more for functionality into chapter 14 which also includes the landscape specifications. So it'll uh defer to or um site this section in the code is also applying. And then really for staff this is going to mean more detailed review of landscape plans. um like like I said more more thoughtful application of of landscape crown covered on private development and public development um town projects or C dot projects frankly this would all apply towards um and then

basically when something's submitted to us if it's showing as a as a turf area there just has to be some kind of justification for it. So my understanding, our understanding is there's fairly broad flexibility for application of this. Um but it, you know, we see something that's just a broad application without justification, we're going to have to scrutinize it a little bit more than previously we would have had to. So next steps, should a planning commission approve this tonight, um it would go to the board for um approval at public hearing. So the public hearing would uh take place during the board meeting. Um the earliest that could be brought forward is November 5th with noticing requirements and then if approved it would take effect 30 days later in December. That concludes my presentation. I'm happy to answer any questions um or discuss kind of impact and implementation a little bit more. It's an interesting sidlight on artificial turf. I just heard on public radio today was that it's actually generating quite a bit of microlastics.

It's a It's Exactly. Yeah, I know. And one of the um the resource blurbs I read microlastics and and POS things that get into the water system, those were cited as as general concerns. I mean, on a small, you could still, you know, do this in a small area in your yard or something. on a small scale it's it's less impactful but if you know some sort of large industrial park business park application that could be a pretty alarming the other major thing that side you know you need absorption area for storm water control and you've negated it with that material so any other comments from the board or

no good job thank you have all of you been to the museum the what museum So now it's time for them maybe to take a harder look at that. Yeah. Because more research. It's very interesting if you haven't been, but they have one room that's dedicated to the amount of uh water we spend watering grass in Denver. And it's rather shocking. Yeah. Well, and they have a large selection of artificial turf. Um so, but PAS is we're worried about ski wax. You add that into the mix, you're really Yeah. You're not going the right direction. Yeah.

Well, and it it should be noted that in uh in in town 90% of our water in our houses gets back to the river.

Um a very small percentage of it that goes into the ground. Some of it goes into ground water. That's partially the way we charge our groundwater, but landscaping water generally is lost um to the to the system. So, it's a consumptive use and uh we really have to think hard about it. And Peggy, you mentioned this. I think we really should look hard at at um sustainable uh landscaping that's basically zerocape um with you know provision of course it needs to be it has to be irrigated in when it's first planted to get it established and in bad years like the summer we had this summer there's going to be a period of time even zeroscape probably needs watered and trees especially need water to stay healthy

but we can really cut down on the amount of landscape water we use in the community if be regulated because all you got to do is walk out in the woods and into our beautiful meadows and you can really understand that we can our landscape can be beautiful and not really be water consumptive. So, um I we need to set by example and that's really a lot of the reason that Grand County is so invested in the in the drought preparedness committee and I was involved in that for quite a while. The big the big flaw with the drought preparedness committee is that they can't call on Denver to cut back on diversions. And but Denver did say to us, you know, if you guys really want to talk to us about water conservation and us conserving water, you guys need to conserve water, too. So, it puts us in a better step when we end up in any kind of action where we're trying to trying to defend what little water we have left up in the basin. So, so I do think we should take a hard look at going further with this and at least researching it and starting that discussion to see if we want to as a community um really try and focus in on like you know outside of vegetable gardens, flower pots, some decorative flowers um but at least have most of our yards and and areas uh to survive on the water that's here. So comes from the sky.

I think I agree. I and I think one thing that I'm so excited my husband's been doing is he's weed whacked the entire yard now because of the fire danger. Right. And so I think it goes hand inand with protecting the water but also making the community fire safe in the fall. Yeah. And we'll be looking at what we have to adopt a code on fire safety by next April. So, I think that's a piece that we could say, okay, you get to mow your grass once a year.

Yeah, Boulder is uh finally working really hard on their grazing programs for all their open space. And I I just, you know, I'm working on a project through my watershed through the UC Wet the Wershed group I'm part of on a re reconstruction of a section of the Colorado River through the golf course, Grand Lake Golf Course. And all those houses are being rebuilt up there and they're all wood siding, you know, and I talked to I talked to one of them, one of the owners up there, and he said, 'Well, it's, you know, we've already had a fire. All the all the trees are gone. And of course, the grasses are coming up like crazy,

you know, and and so and the and we saw in Superior that a grass fire can be much more deadly than a than a forest fire. So, and the one fire the one house in that neighborhood that survived is on a pile a lot of dry stack rock around it because it's up on a mound. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all stuckco and rock and the house survived and everybody else was burned up and yet here they go back to wood siding again. It's kind of a no-brainer. Yeah. So, so you're right, Peggy. It's it's a big fire concern as well. So, and Clark, thanks for the cows. I guess we we got to come back. So, so yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. But anyway, we'll fire danger.

I think we should run them around up in rendevous, but You know, I seriously get the public. I was Well, I I'm sorry. Yeah, I was um I haven't done any research on artificial turf. Um what I heard tonight is the first negative thing I've heard about it. I I think artificial turf looks really nice. You don't have to water it. Like, yeah. So, I was kind of against this because I think artificial turf is was a good solution, but I guess if it's I mean, if if if if it's shedding stuff into rivers, I guess that's not great, but it surprises me that that's true. actually

might be useful just to have something to share with our board and the community when we go to pass this that talks about the research that shows that that yeah and the runoff and microplastics and then document some alternatives permeable pavers things that people because there it's often used in hightra areas and it is an nice alternative to concrete so if we talk about some other alternatives that might make sense for people. So, well, and it's not it's not like it's waterproof, right? It doesn't water. It is. Yeah. I And it may depend on the design. Some may be more

permeable than others. Plastic. Okay. So, any other comments from the board? We'll discuss with the public a bit or Yeah. Happy to open it up to the public.

Okay. Comments from the public. Hi everybody. Uh Clark Lipkcom uh for the record. And uh I mean first off, you know, I got to sit here and question, you know, how much government's already in our lives and how much government tells us what we can and can't do with our own properties, etc. This seems like a massive overreach. And I would be curious how it's beneficial to the citizens of Frraasier because I don't think it is for many reasons. And I also believe um there that you don't need to adopt this now. It's not state law yet and you can sit and wait and my gut is they probably will change it again and would avoid us changing it. And what I what I kind of envision you implement this and now you're having to hire um another person, you know, the turf inspector or the landscape inspector or you going to have your code enforcement officer handle it. I don't know who's going to handle it, but will they even know what they're looking at? Okay, we use drought tolerant grasses. In fact, we use uh a Texas fescue that's been engineered to use very little water. Okay, and it'll literally turn brown if it's not watered. And when it gets water on it, it turns green again. Um it's pretty cool. Where I just was uh up on the Grand Park West Mountain with my forestry crews, uh I had a good amount of cattle up there the bulk of the summer and it's very turf-like. It looks beautiful, Andy. It's all native.

Yeah, I've been up there.

It really looks nice and we're, you know, cutting the thousands of thousands of baby pine trees that keep coming up endlessly that are overpopulating the land. But but but nonetheless, we're trying to promote grass growth and and grass growth is a good thing for multiple reasons. Um, it one filters the water and the runoff. It stops erosion. It cools the earth. is cooler than dirt, rock, concrete, asphalt, et everybody knows that. Uh, and I just question the science and the thought and the ideas behind this. Um, because there is so much developmental stuff going on like I mean streambank wheat, streambank wheats in our cousins meadow. Okay, streambait we wink. If you if you plant your whole yard with stream bankank wheat and mow it, okay, that is a native grass and it will turn into turf. So, is that not allowed or is native turf allowed? I mean, that's what what I think you're really creating a problem. What the state legislature of the many many problems the state legislature and our wonderful government governor has created. I I think you're creating turmoil and crisis amongst government employees at a local level and citizens unnecessarily where there really isn't a problem that exists. And and I just I truly believe the science is not been studied well enough. And I hear, you know, the thing on the plastic. First of all, there's innumerable amounts of artificial turf now. And I can remember when everybody advocated for artificial turf because it didn't use and consume any water, right?

Consequences. Yeah. And I think it's a lot different than the artificial turf I played football on growing up, right? That would burn the skin off your arm, etc. I mean, artificial turf today, uh, typically has sand placed underneath it. Uh, it has a lot of material that goes into the turf. It looks very realistic and it's not always necessarily made with plastic. So I mean something to certainly research. Okay. So that like first time I've heard that was you know run off of

I'm I'm very sensitive to microlastics. I'm you know trying to be healthy and and I think that is truly a thing with all the plastics in our life but I don't know that it's coming from astroturf and I think there's other types of turf that we should be considering. And then the other thing that I think about I I like fighting to get grass to grow, right? I mean, anytime we do construction development, it is a battle here to get grass to grow. And we use native grass. I mean, I buy I'm buying a bunch of native grass seed right now. Um, it usually takes like two years before it grows in. There's like babysitting. But on top of that, in areas where we don't have a good solid turf bed,

um, we end up with weeds and noxious weeds typically. and I'm fighting noxious weeds all the time with chemicals which I hate using, right? So, I mean, I I think it's almost like discouraging um turf and and why not encourage like good turfs that don't consume a lot of water and that are good for our environment and they're good for our lifestyles and quality of life. And I I mean I think this whole thing of functional versus non-functional, it's just an argument, right? I mean, the strip of grass that Allan showed outside of a pool, I mean, I can argue all day long, guys. Totally functional. So, I can see myself standing right here with you guys talking about our landscaping and that's a functional piece of grass. You know, the kids are going to be playing bochi ball on it, right? And you know, Peggy's going to argue, nope, boall not functional use of the grass, Clark. Right? I mean, can you guys hear this right now? I can totally hear it. So, like, come on. I mean, really, you know, do we have to adopt this now? Maybe it can sit and wait. Just because our state legislature is doing stuff doesn't mean we should, right? And and quite honestly, a lot of things our state legislature has done, it's not good for our citizens and and our town and and frankly, we don't have to always do exactly what the state does unless it's state law, then, you know, then we do. But but right now, this isn't state law. So, I'd encourage you to wait. just wait and sit and wait and let's get a little bit more science. Thank you.

So Alan, what is the status of the state law? Well, I so I believe it is state law. It's the uh act requires that local jurisdictions enact it by a certain date. So that's why we want it in place by January 1st, but it was signed by the governor, you know, as part of the legislative session. The 2026 or 2028 you there was a few different years.

Yeah. The the bulk of it is January 1st, 2026. The House bill from this year that added the residential component and the allowance for functional artificial turf is 2028. Let's let's confirm that and then let's do some more research on on on the non-functional tur the astroturf type substances. I can't I can't can't imagine there aren't better products out there. So, but this becomes this becomes an education thing. And and Clark, I I agree with a lot what you said, but but if people want to plant a Kentucky blueg grass lawn, then it does have an effect on all of us. Um, it threatens our town water supply. It threatens the river that we all depend on. It it it is a it is a a community concern, I believe, because water is a is jointly owned by everybody in the state. We have water rights in the state. We have rights to the water, but the water itself belongs to the people of Colorado and to our community. So, we we have legislative responsibility, I believe, to help protect that resource. So, and as far as the enforcement goes, we have an excellent town gardener. We have an excellent town enforce code enforcement officer. And this becomes a matter of education and also becomes a really important tool during planning. When we have development proposals, they'll show us what their landscape is and what their what their proposals are, what's going to get planted. And I agree with Clark 100%. It's extremely hard to get vegetation going on our ground without, you know, we were over pulling daisies, the invasive daisies over by the library the other day with 12 of us and we had bags and bags of them just around the the public library because that's what comes in and it's it's a nightmare. So it it behooves everybody to get right on their landscaping and we need to as a community give them all the tools that are possible in the ways of grasses that are that are maybe not native but are

lower lower consump consumptive. So anyway, but there is I think there's a need for a regulatory framework. Andy, in my reading of the Senate bills, um what I got out of it was that the prohibition on cool season turf in nonfunctional areas of new and redeveloped commercial, industrial, and institutional properties goes into effect. Pulis has signed it and goes into effect January 1, 2026. Uh and then House Bill 1113 expands it. But uh the turf and grass regulations under the bill say that cool season non-native turf grasses such as Kentucky blueg grass and tall fescues are prohibited. Uh and then non in non-functional areas. Now I agree with you, Clark. There's going to be a lot of debate on what a functional versus a nonfunctional area is. So, I don't know how we're going to deal with that, but you're right about that. That's that's going to be a problem. Uh, so they're saying that warm season native and climate adaptive grasses like buffalo grass and blue gamma gramma. I have no idea what that is, Clark. That is a complete hybrid genetically modified grass similar to hyperblue which is a fescue modified genetically modif but yeah

that's the hyperblue that we use which is so that's that's fine we could plant that

I'll add that in one of the the resource guides that was part of the packet within that there was another reference to different like species lists and plantings lists that are put out I think by the CSU extension um that deals a lot with plant species and horiculture in the state. Um there's one specific to um native plant guide for mountain climates above 7500 ft in elevation. So there'd be some additional there's already literature and research out there that we'd be able to utilize share with developers applicants for their project whoever the landscape architect is. So Allan, it sounds to me like we are required to do something because it's going to be a state law January 1, correct? 2026.

But we could uh I'm not sure that uh well, I think we could look at what could be planted, the warm season grasses, and basically, you know, figure out what those are and put that in our codes. Yeah. If you're going to landscape, you're going to have to landscape with these grasses,

warm season grasses. And then the one question that I had that I was dying to ask, is are any of the plantings that we do around town, which our our town uh landscaping does such a beautiful job with the flowers and everything. Do we have any invasive species that we're fighting with at this time or would some of the plantings that we've done in the town fall into the nonfunctional category? Well, that's where ornamental ornamentals are important to keep those keep those allowed. Yeah. So,

and and are they water tolerant? What we've been planning? Yeah. I don't know if I have a great response, frankly. I mean,

I I mean, I've spoken with Kathleen a little bit about it. Everything that they're planting in the median very low water requirements. None of that is artificial or anything to that degree. Uh we do have uh Knox's weed control that we have to maintain all over the summer, which is always a challenge. And that's primarily along the Frasier River Trail and the Customs Branch Open Space areas. Um the big tall Mus. Um I can't list them all but she's actually got them on the website on our website and uh and she engages property owner different different folks too that have those properties.

Might suggest that when this comes to the town board that Kathleen might attend to answer some of these questions. She's such a great resource for our community. So, but in finishing, Andy, I I echo what you've said already, and that is that let's provide a little more research for the board to consume as they're considering this adopting if we send this forward to them. Uh because right now I I wouldn't be able to identify uh a cool weather grass from a warm weather grass from an invasive species weed. I mean, I'm just not

Well, and again, I'll remind that a lot of this isn't going to come up for the everyday citizen necessarily. What you're doing on your individual property isn't subject to these. It'll just be the the new projects at a larger scale, the the commercial or the commercial projects that are that are new. Think about it for residential moving forward. I mean, it works fine in rendevous. Right. Going above and beyond the requirements. It's natural. Yeah. Well, it is. So, Clark, I'm I'm sorry. We just so we can get it on get it on on mic and everything if you could. Yeah.

I think it's an education process that we are all going to have to do about fire safety. Yeah. and the tall grasses are are definitely at risk. But I think there's a way that we can work and make it work for both. Yeah. One one of the reason you saw more cattle this Clark clips coming more cattle show up is because of I didn't get all my grass eaten down and um and Jeff Durb and I were talking uh and he was in Longmont during the Lewisville during the Longmont fire which was a grass fire. I grew up in Texas and grass fires were always what we were scared of. We weren't scared of forest fires or you know I mean we have oak trees and stuff but

remember the night that we finalized him leaving the town was the east troublesome night. Basically the day he started down there was the superior fire and I when I talked to him one time I pointed that out. He says yeah that is right. I said good point. Maybe it was following him. But uh the point is though I asked him I said you know what did what the town do after that and what was their solution because it was a grass fire it wasn't a forest fire and I mean kind of like insurance is a huge issue as we all know for fires but seems like they focused on forest areas and not necessarily eastern plains where this tall grass is an issue and they they actually bring in uh goats and sheep uh that the city does now to to graze

uh their park and open space lands etc and to eat this stuff down to keep it down low. So, I mean, I think I heard you say it could be mowed once or weed whacked once, but like um in in a lot of cases, you're I just my house in steamboat has very tall grass around it. It's all been mowed out pretty far from the house for the same concern. It's native, you know, it's but it's freaking tall and I just think about like a fire comes through there. So, I just think you got to really, you know, kind of balance all of these things and I'm not sure, you know, we don't want everything to just be rocks and gravel. that wouldn't work very well either. So, I mean, I don't know what the solution is,

but you know, animals help a lot. And I mean, that's given it's in the Forest Service manual that cattle I actually think one of our problems is they don't have as much cattle grazing on Forest Service lands as they used to. Yeah. Um I think that's a huge problem. Um and um yeah, I mean I I I don't know what the solution is, guys, but I don't know. This seems kind of like shot from the hip by the state legislator. They did run into us. CSU student the other day her field of study is grassland management for fire. So it's starting to take some tow hold in the universities too. So but thanks appreciate that. Yeah.

So I think you know if we can with Kathleen's help and maybe some feedback from Clark for some of the grasses that would have worked for him to be able to identify those species that really do well do work well up here. And um regarding the fire danger, um I noticed it, you know, at Rendevous and up in um uh by Silver Creek going up the hill to um resort. The grasses, they're planting these grasses. They're this tall and they're a total fire hazard. Yeah.

But I actually reported it to the fire department. Dennis had already retired, but took some pictures and sent it to the new fire marshal saying, "This is a huge concern." So to the right of the Catholic Church, these grasses are this tall and they go up right up to the houses, right up to their gas meters, right under, you know, up to their decks. So I think um we really need to take a look at those grasses and if they're going to be that type of grass. Maybe it belongs out in a hay meadow, but not necessarily in a residential area in these times of drought and high fire danger. but some some possibly some language in the ordinance that that um allows for people to come forward with other varieties too with research because this is a pretty unique climate up here. A lot of this at the state was designed for the front range, but we should be open. I wanted to share. So, so this was the document that I was referencing earlier about um guidance put out by the I believe this is the CSU extension, but it's a specific planting list for mountain elevations above uh 7,500 ft. So it goes through different types, ground covers, perennials, um some information about it. I believe this is a this page is split in half, just the formattings.

So is this grasses, shrubs, etc. Is this from this is from CSU extension? It's not from the actual law that's going to go into place January 1. It will Yeah, it was cited and part of the implementation guidance put out by the state. So it's basically a recommendation to utilize this guide or and so how often are they reviewing this? You know, are they updating it with new hybrids or anything like that or is this once it's in law? This is it.

This isn't specifically part of the law. night and one of the blurbs in the guidance was they actually recommended not inserting specific species and inserting things because the best practices do change so often that it's easier to just have a reference guide rather than to codify this sort of stuff otherwise that might lock you in and um have it get um antiquated pretty quick. Right. So that's that's one of the issues I have with the artificial turf is it just says like no to artificial turf. But of course new things are going to be invented all the time and or maybe out there already. Yeah.

Right. Exactly. So I just I don't like the fact that it's just like no on that that kind of stuff, you Besides besides the microplastics issues, which we should do a little more research into, I've always thought that the issue with artificial turf was that it acts more like an imperous surface. And we want groundwater to be absorbed and recharge our groundwater tables and our aquifers. Um in fact there are number some cities actually have requirements on how much imperous surface you can have on a site. Yeah.

Um Clark I don't I know you an Austin guy. I think there's a in Austin you can't have more than 50% of your site impervious materials. Huh. U depends on the size of lot and the type of product that you're doing. Yeah. Um, yeah, but they're trying to encourage having at least half the site or something like that where where you can get water to soak into the ground and the ground water. Yeah. We use grass. I would think that would be a more productive thing for us to look at. Yeah. I mean,

artificial turf whether we accept it or not, especially if it's not impervious like I'm I've assumed it. It always has been. University of Texas when they redid their stadium right after I left went to turf from natural and it literally had like all these layers of sand underneath etc. And they could have you could have a goalie washer of a rain and the field would be boned dry. It all went into the field. Yeah. Into this massive crazy draining system. Uh they now changed that like three more times. But um actually you might have marched on it Garrett. But um the bottom line is I mean yeah there's all kinds of like you go to the home go to a home show. go to the home show, you'll you'll see so many turfs, it'll blow your mind,

right? I I look I think at the I think all of you all had a great discussion and it's going to keep evolving the they're going to keep genetically modifying plants and flowers and grasses and trees and everything else to be less and less water consumptive. That's just a given with all of the water focus in our world because it's not just a Colorado issue. It's a global issue. Um, and I mean I think you know I doubt we'll see cactus up here. Uh, we might I don't know another 20 or 30

change all the uh all the animals are coming north. They say the animals that are down in the tropics, they're all migrating north as the get climate gets warmer up here. Yeah. I mean it's of course we I don't we're at an elevation we don't have to worry about it.

Okay. Anyway, I mean it sounds like you got to adopt something, but at the end of the day, I think, you know, maybe just adopt the state law and let it evolve and and I think what you're going to see is, you know, people come forward primarily sounds like to me it's going to be mostly commercial focused initially and like big like El Creek condos where we have, you know, 84 units and five buildings which has a fescue drought tolerant taff turf limitedly because it's got a lot of native grass, but like right up around the buildings is like turf that we mow and we take care of and it looks really nice. I think that's where you're going to see it. And then I think you're going to see a lot of people just come in and they'll need to have their species and say here this is all stuff for our climate or our environment and it should work.

Anyway, good luck with it. So, uh, more public comment, Bob. Yeah, thanks. Thank you, Clark. Bob Wolf, uh, 566 on River Drive. Um, I'm pretty knowledgeable with artificial turf, believe it or not. Um, my father 30 years ago put in artificial turf up up here at our Winter Park house

and it still looks good to this day and the water soaks right on through it uh without any problem whatsoever. He also did it in Denver at their house in Denver uh out in Littleton. He was one of the first ones ever to do it in Denver, I think. And um he he ripped out all of his lawn because of the amount of water it was taking to uh water his lawn. And uh so he he ripped it all out and put uh the same artificial turf down there on his house. And um you know it's it soaked up the water. I I watched it get um installed and everything else. So I think it's, you know, this first I've heard about microplastics, but everything in this world is microplastics right now. It seems like we have a big uh concern about it going into the rivers. Um on grass seeds, you know, we used to when I was building, you know, you used to be able to get a building permit and get a bag of grass to go along with it the county would give you.

They still do. And I don't know what they're what brand or what design grass they're using. the CSU extension. It's all it's all tall grass. Yeah. Because that's what's going around all these That's what would go around all these houses, believe it or not, was was that. So you go over to the county extension over there in Kremlin and still get this bag of grass. Yeah, probably. And it still comes out with the building permit.

I think we actually have some down bags. So, um, you know, I think I don't know if, uh, if you could, that might be a losing battle trying to change over grass seeds up here that, uh, are around. You know, you know, I have a lot of natural grass over in my my house. I mow it down. I put Margaret out there on the lawn mower and down. That's a riding mower. And it's a it's a push mold at the but you know I mean it's it's amazing on how fast it grows that natural grass. I mean you can uh you take it down and within a week it's it's another 6 in during the summer water. Pardon? How often do you water?

I don't water at all out in one part of that island. I don't water at all. It just grows. I think it's getting I think it's getting fed by the stream, the groundwater and everything that's around it. You know, we have a pond nice and everything. So, lovely. Always looks,

you know. So, um so I it just grows once it gets rain. It's going to grow. Now, we did have a dry summer this year for sure. Um the chem I think we're concerned about the the amount of water going in, you know, chemicals and stuff going off maybe off the grass, but I think another issue to really concern ourselves with, and Michael and I have talked about this, is the the way the town is plowing all the streets. We have a big problem with uh winter removal of the snow with all the chemicals that are coming off of the street that are getting pushed into the river up there at Safeway. We stopped the Safeway pile there, Bob. Last one was a pile didn't exist. So

Oh, no. It was there. I walked by the the pile between Safeway and changes and on the what? Right there. Just uh just east of the bus stop. Right there. Wow. Okay. Right. They plow, they come in, they plow the bus stop, and then they just push it all right into the river. Right. They do stop the plow between changes the Safeway. So, that one Oh, I'm I I don't walk by there in the winter time. So, we're This is part of the storm water Yeah. plan that we're working on. So, it's not really grass,

but that's there's not that much grass, but I mean, they're really there's a big pile of snow. Yeah. that ends up right there uh east of that bus stop right there that they it just I remember when the skier used to literally plow the parking lot there into the river fill up as and fill up the complete river drainage and make more parking out of it. Yeah. All righty. Okay.

So, um so those are just my my observations. There's a lot of places, you know, we got the hardware store over here. They've got artificial grass now. you know, they they changed their stuff out and made artificial grass. So, I think there's I don't you know, I don't want to say it's all bad. I think there's a lot of good artificial grass out there, you know, that can be used in certain occasions. But I think I think the important thing is aside from the microplastics issue is the permeability of the product. Yeah. And I I don't see it being permeability. I don't it it drains through. I mean there's a the stuff I have been involved with it it just drains right on through. Okay. So yeah, make that part of a Yeah. Yeah. We'll look into parameters for the product.

Yeah. Any other comments from the public? Okay. Any followup from the board? Uh just a question. So the legislature, this is taking effect uh January 1st, 2026. And so what we're trying to do is enact something that is consistent with that is in compliance with it. Yes. And if we don't, it's kind of a gray area, but then we're not in compliance. Um you know, whether anyone called us on it or not,

I I I don't know. I mean that Yeah, that is probably something we don't want to push too much, but I guess I don't think there's a giant hammer necessarily. I think Clark had a really good point. Sometimes, you know, we we do these things without really fully understanding the ramifications down the road. And I I don't know what I'm really suggesting. I'm just saying I'm a little concerned that we're doing this without really fully understanding the ramifications of it. But um you did a good job. I think you did a really good job with what you propose. Um

I I do want to ask I guess if this isn't going forward tonight some specificity on what you're looking for because you know there's the state definitions the state kind of structure for what they're trying to implement. I don't know if we can necessarily vary back from that. We can go further potentially. So if that's the direction we could look into it, but in terms of like the definitions of artificial turf and types of grasses, if it's that kind of detail, I guess from my You don't know if we can do that?

Well, I don't I'd say we can't we can't do less uh restrictive than what the state's requiring. We could always do more, but we can't. Can you could we somehow build in more flexibility that um you know if somehow you look at it more of a case by case basis? Margaret, you can only be more restrictive. You can't you can't provide flexibility in areas the state doesn't. But it sounds like there's interest to separate things that are re that are required by the state to be implemented in 2028. maybe separating out those things from this ordinance and highlighting the areas that that are required for 2026 implementation. I think that's a good idea. That's what I'm hearing.

The the difference between those two is just the uh residential component. So that's what I'm hearing.

By 2026, it's still all commercial non-residential. The not not integrating the residential component would allow two additional years for other residential, higher density residential. And then um the the House bill from this year that isn't required till 2028 actually added in the definition of functional artificial turf. So that was seen as an omission and added in as allowed. So I assume we'd still want to allow functional if that's what people are concerned about. Again with all of this I think we can be pretty broad in terms of our application of what is functional and not functional. Um, it would be, you know, if we're taking a more heavy-handed approach that we'd need to dial that in.

Yeah.

Well, I Well, you want to make a motion? We'll move this before. I don't know what this motion about. Just ask.

Yeah. follow up from what you were talking about, Margaret. If we were to not move forward tonight and do a little more homework on the bill and also grasses and artificial turf and all those things. uh if it delayed us in bringing it to or trustees uh such that we don't get it implemented or approved by the board of trustees until after when the bill legislation goes into effect January 1, 2026. Um, but if we followed behind that somewhat, would we be in any trouble?

And would we use the time accordingly that we're delaying moving forward to sharpen the bill up? I

I believe the trouble would be is we'd be following our current code, which would allow larger stretches of non-functional artificial turf or um or regular turf. So, we'd be allowing that where the state's asking us to not allow it. You know, the actual imp implication of that, I don't know, that might need to be a question for our town attorney to ask what that looks like going forward, but ultimately these regulations wouldn't be in effect. So, it'd be more of a everything still goes up until we adopt something more restrictive, which is what this initial attempt is. Whether it's more restrictive than this or not, I guess is to to be seen. And I guess my to follow up further with what you're saying, if we delay, what exactly are we asking the staff to do in the meantime? What exactly were we asking them to do?

Well, I think the permeability of artificial turf is is a big one and also the microplastic generation of artificial turf is worth some research and I think that all that research and product information should be out there. I think that the outlines for the turf that can be used is effective. We've got a long list from the extension office and some some ability to change that if other if other species other plant varieties become available, but it seems to me that the focal point here is that there are there could be more uses for artificial turf. I mean, the the hardware store is a good example there. They had hight traffic areas. They were hard to keep keep the grass growing on because everybody's walking back and forth.

Functional and and but it is functional what they've done there. They instead of laying down concrete, they laid down artificial turf that looks better and it's and it's holding up and not not all the maintenance that was required for the for those sections of lawn that were in over there. So maybe it's the crust maybe that we add kind of our own language to the definition of functional to allow or maybe a broader application of it with more specific design requirements such as drainage. Yeah.

Would that address the concern? And I would think with some some research and some some work on that before it goes to the board, we could if we're not com I' I'd like to see this pass tonight. But if we're not comfortable passing it, it could obviously go to the board without us approving it. That correct? Or or we could or if it's, you know, if we're okay to implement some minor tweaks to this general language and structure, I believe we can still take that to the board. Do ask us for the condition on the article. Is that what you would do? Do you would you agree with that, Carrot? Yeah, I was just going to say that um so the the resolution as written is recommending that the board

approve and adopt this ordinance essentially as currently written. I do believe it would be appropriate to add some conditions. Okay. Conditions of this recommendation to that that addresses the points that you just raised, right? [Music] Katie, I was just Yeah. taking a look at if we if we did wait for that. It does get under the wire because we don't really cut back on meetings in December. Yeah. For the holidays,

I I would think with conditions that this I mean the the spirit of this is good. You know, we're really trying to conserve water. We're trying to improve the groundwater with permeability. We're trying to prevent runoff into streams. Part of the part of the problem with these non-native turfs is that nitrogen fertilizers go into it. That's really bad for the river

for algae growth with with warmer temperatures. So, a lot of these things, this is extremely important, I think, and I think we could pass it with the condition that this this question of artificial turf and possible other areas where it's suitable, but mainly it permeable. What effect does it really have on the groundwater and on runoff? It's worth looking into too. So before the board considers it, uh if we were home rule, we would still have to adopt this, right? Like if it's a state I don't actually I don't know. I believe so, but that's my understanding. Yeah. Yes.

Okay. Just Yeah. Curious. the the uh the bills that were passed by the state legislature and signed by legislature and signed by the governor, I believe, contain language stating that uh these restrictions, these regulations are a matter of statewide concern and therefore apply to both home rule and statutory municipalities.

Okay. Um I I will just quickly share um our resolution that is on the table maybe ask for some assistance in drafting these uh conditions. Um, so it sounded like uh staff providing some additional information and research on artificial turf um permeability permeability and um and possible runoff concerns from from uh substances in the turf and yeah the composition

and there may be something else too just to see what what the runoff effect is off of these turf products. So hopefully the industry is looking at this and addressing it already. So and then doing some possible research on alternative turfs and what their ramification is with fertilizer and watering and it seems like that's pretty well covered, isn't it? As far as the ability to CSU extension office and the ability to look at the different turf types for height and that sort of thing. Yeah,

I I would say by adopting the code amendment as written, um maybe it doesn't directly reference some of the native plant species lists that um Allan pulled up or other resources like that, but I do not believe that not mentioning them means that they cannot be utilized by staff, by applicants as reference material, certainly um and and evaluating specific proposed species types and things of that nature. Uh but I I think it would also be appropriate to have a second condition just stating providing some more research and information on native turf species and I think specifically fire specifically also fire

okay

that we you know over height looking for varieties that aren't going to require to be grazed and mowed so that hopefully that the kind of situation and that's where I'm living now by the way in inbrook. So um that you that we we have some regulatory ability to prevent those type of grasses being planted unless there's a management plan. So okay. Okay. So the conditions um town staff provide additional information and research on artificial turf permeability and storm water runoff concerns. Town staff provide that's number one. Number two is town staff provide research on native turf species and varieties that are fire fire um that do not exist that well fire I'm trying to think something different than tolerant.

Yeah. Um you say resistant or well no it's firewise or firewise. Yes. Perfect. Yeah. Firewise and low maintenance. Who the heck knows what that mean? Well firewise means that you don't have tall grass growing up next to it. Firewise is a pretty common term for wildfire. mitigation. So, and so I mean the way this was worded, it's for things moving forward. I mean, and maybe when we get to the point where we're doing the fire stuff, we might have to address existing conditions, knowing now that things have changed considerably when 20 years ago when memix was the answer to all everybody's problem and it

has now created another problem that needs to be addressed and people need to be educated on the dangers of what grasses. Yeah. Does that look like it'll work? Yeah, I'm okay with that. We'll call for a motion. I'll move to approve uh planning commission resolution 25 2025901 with the conditions that were just stated by Andy. Two conditions. Yep. Okay. Second. Second. Okay. All in favor? I I

Any opposed? Okay. Thank you. Thanks for all the input. It's great. Appreciate it. So, the next um draft code amendment is uh for item B on our agenda is vehicle sales and storage regulations.

Thank you, Chair Miller and Planning Commission. Um the second item on the agenda this evening is a uh proposed draft code amendment uh that would modify chapter 19 our land development code and provide some regulations relating to vehicle sales and storage. So a bit of background on this request. Um, in recent years, uh, there has been somewhat of a pr proliferation of unregulated vehicle sales and long-term vehicle storage, um, occurring on specific properties, uh, with a high visibility from US Highway 40. Um, town staff has also observed other, however, more isolated occurrences of, uh, vehicle sales or long-term vehicle storage on other properties just generally located in our business and Riverwalk zone districts. um staff has tried to work with Frasier Winter Park PD and our code enforcement officers on trying to address these issues. Uh but uh our code enforcement officers uh have stated that they are unable to adequately regulate or address this activity with our code as currently written. So therefore, staff is presenting this code amendment that seeks to balance the needs of property owners uh with the broader goals of maintaining community character and reducing the visual clutter that's created by um vehicle sales and and storage. So I'm just going to talk through uh what this code amendment is proposing. Uh the first is it adds uh two new definitions and modifies one existing one in uh this section of the code. It adds a definition for heavy equipment as well as vehicle so that those terms are clearly defined as well as uh outdoor storage. This is an existing definition and simply the word heavy equipment is added to it. I recognize that the

definition of vehicle is inclusive of heavy equipment. But just so that there is no ambiguity, um outdoor storage covers vehicles, heavy equipment, other you know mechanical means of transportation of all variety. So with regards to outdoor storage, this is a use that currently exists in our code. However, a additional section under supplemental uses is being added to the code which provides some additional uh context and conditions related to outdoor storage as a a permanent use on a property above and beyond just simply whether it is a permitted or conditional use uh based on the uh schedule of uses table which is copied here below for outdoor storage. So although uh outdoor storage is prohibited in our residential zones such as lowdensity single family up to highdensity multif family, there is this carveout exception that would allow one RV on residential properties to be placed in outdoor storage. Um the reason for this going back to the definition is that outdoor storage is defined as um something being kept in the same place for more than a 24-hour period. So RVs, recreation, recreational vehicles more generally uh are generally not used on a day-to-day basis and uh by the letter of this definition would trigger that 24-hour period uh which is the reason for this carveout for one RV on a res per residential property. I will also note that if an RV is under a covered carport or within a garage, um that is also not considered outdoor

storage. Again, it only applies to keeping in a unroofed area um for more than 20 a 24-hour period. And this is an addition to our code to our current code. Correct. Yes. So, this does not currently exist, but this would be added if this code amendment is ultimately approved by the board. Is an RV a vehicle? It is. So, going back to uh the definition of vehicle, recreational vehicles are covered. That includes trailers. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Trailers as well. So, basically it's these these vehicles have to be licensed, have to have a current license plan.

Yeah. So, so what if someone has on their own RV in their backyard and then friends come to visit and they park their RV in their backyard? That would be a violation under this if if it was for like four or five days.

Sure. if if their friends uh are living and staying within the RV on that person's property. I mean, generally speaking, regardless of the length of time, this is likely not something that town staff would regulate with a heavy hand, but something like a few days to a week or so would fall under the definition of camping as currently codified in our code. So any anytime someone is living in a recreational vehicle for longer than two weeks, that is considered camping. That is separate from other general residential uses per our code. And camping is uh generally restricted in our residential. I want to say a majority of our zone districts. I'd have to double check which ones specifically, but

uh camping is is broadly not allowed. Two weeks though. Yes. But but two weeks is generally a time period that wouldn't result in any enforcement or or penalties.

Good questions. Um returning to the topic of outdoor storage, um this proposed code amendment would also uh provide some additional regulations for any commercial property uh that is approved to have outdoor storage. So, um, that storage area must not be visible from a public street and any vehicles or heavy equipment that are stored must be registered to either the property owner or the tenant. Um, I will note that um, property owners can seek a conditional use permit that allows exceptions to any of these three. So, if there is a residential property owner that owns two or more recreational vehicles and they do not have a carport or garage to accommodate them, they could seek a conditional use permit. Similarly, um you know, if if a property cannot accommodate outdoor storage without that being visible from a public street, that is something that could be allowed subject to our conditional use permit process with which ultimately requires board of trustees approval. Any questions on these?

So, what constitutes a roof? Yeah, I was going to ask that, too. Yeah. Poleb barn. Yeah, that's a good question. I think um you know, a a roofed area need not be a enclosed garage. Um I do believe that our code defines carports as a um type of accessory structure. Um, so I think we would just rely on on that

on the definition and the Oh, so somebody put a tent over their RV. You know, there's a lot of these canvas uh vehicle enclosures, several of them around town. Do those constitute a roof or probably not. Um, as our code goes, I don't know. Yeah, I know we dealt with something somewhat similar recently with a property that wanted to put a um canvas color or covered um type of storage building. Um my understanding is that generally that's not allowed unless it is um you know engineered as a permanent structure.

Needs needs to meet the snow lower requirements. Exactly. Yeah. That's pretty much it. That pretty much prohibits Yeah. anything. Yeah. So, if you had outdoor storage and you had a fence, which would prohibit it at what's the height of a fences? Can't go over six feet with the fence, can we? Or you can go taller than six feet with, but that requires a building permit and you know the things that a building permit requires. Um, but 6 feet and under a fence does not require a building permit. Question. So, an RV is a vehicle. Yes.

Okay. What is a snowmobile? What is a UTV? Because you can drive through Oldtown Frasier and you can see people parking their snowmobiles on their property visible from the street. Are we going to only allow them to have one snowmobile park? It's a great question. I I will pull up our our definitions in our code right now. kind of segue or sidebar over to this um because I do believe there are separate definitions for some of these, but I want to and don't are current regulations um already say that you only allowed x amount of vehicles on your property or or they all have to have um current plates. Don't we already have something like that? This just seems like it's creating a whole another level of government intervention as telling people what they can do and can't do. I mean, if there's something that's how could we change it? So, the definition is if there's something that's a hazard, a health risk, but

well, there's a lot of things that are visible from Highway 40 and from the streets and but this stage One of the issues is, you know, out between communities. Can you use your mic? You're too quiet. Well, one of the issues is is the used car lot that has basically grown up out by the liquor store. Yeah. I'm not a afraid to say that. And that lot of that used car lot sat on town property until we went out and planted a bunch of trees and made them move at least some of the cars off of it. And it is um I I'm not after a designer community either, Katie. But Right. But there's ways to sell cars without parking them out on the highway for months on end with the for sale sign on.

So, and then abandoned vehicles, too. Is is a an RV. Snowats. Snow Cat. What's that? Or Snow Cats. Yeah, Snow for Whose Snowcat is that anyway? No idea. What's that? We know. And how about the towns? Use the mic, Bob. on vehicles and he just parks him around town and any place he wants. Yeah. Yeah. And I've spoken to him. So, Mr. Wolf, we can't hear you. This is in the public. You have to speak into the microphone, sir. Thank you.

That guy is owned by Michael. I forget his last name, but he has parked that up there. And I've spoken to him about that snowcat being there, and he says, "Well, um, I don't have any place else to put it." Yeah. Well, that's you know, and that's the problem with a lot of the stuff there. People are parking their stuff there because they just they are parking the stuff there. You have the you have the trailers that are up there that are I don't know if they're just advertising because one's you know for spa, one for hot tubs, one's for uh

you know the food food trailer. You have the other trailer that I believe is got a conditional use permit on it that goes along with the liquor store there. But that's the only item there that has maybe the permit that goes along with every other RV that's up there. You have an RV out there in the in the meadow between the carpet store and the liquor store that I mean that guy looks I mean he's got a smoke stack coming out of I think he's got a fireplace in the middle in the middle of it that I've seen smoke coming out the last couple days. And I mean it just it's an eyesore. And I think what Katie's problem is or not problem or concern is is the residential. And I don't think this is actually controlling the residential. I think this is controlling the commercial properties.

It's residential out there. Is that defined? That's defined is the commercial property is is it currently defined what we're looking at? Thank you, Bob. Yeah. Yeah. So that snowcat would look pretty good at the other end of town. You have one coming in and one as you go. That's true. But, you know, on a day day by day, there's a different vehicle that shows up there. We've had a a camper show up there last week. We had another uh camper show up there today. Um I mean, it it's a rotating and uh used car lot up there.

And I don't think it's fair to Clark when he's got a multi-billion dollar development right across the street from there and people are coming in. I was I stood here three years ago and brought this up to the entrances of Frasier here and about all these cars that are parked up there. Yeah. And so I mean I'm glad that we're doing something about it because I think something does needs to be done about it. And I think it's really just for the commercial parts uh Katie that this um amendment goes to. We'll have our staff address that but I think it's all zones. But thanks B.

The the one other example that I can think of which would impact a business is uh Frasier Snowmobile. oftent times they have a fenced area where they keep some of their snow cats that they're working or snowmobiles that they're working on, you know, but they also do consignment sales out front along the highway there. True. But they might have a license to do that. I have no idea if they do, but I don't know either. I'm just saying that this would impact their their ability to advertise sale of snowmobiles

in front of their properties. They could get a sign a couple of them spas hot too. So I think it's you know a conversation about they fence it to remove visibility otherwise if if they just simply can't do that condition. Okay. Well, I'm just saying we we got to think about how it impacts our business owners here in town as well. Right. So, just to clarify here though, so we're talking about all zones here. Yes. Okay. Yes.

So, when you're talking all zones, that's residential and commercial. Yes. What have you? And so and and do you think any differentiation between snowmobiles and and smaller recreational vehicles? So

the way I read our code and I'll share my screen again starting first with um the definition of a recreation uh recreational vehicle. Okay, there we go. Um, so it's defined here uh in our code. I would not include a snowmobile, UTV, OV, etc. under this definition. Um, however, uh, so, so therefore, because a snowmobile is not a recreational vehicle, if a property, if a residential property owner has an RV and a snowmobile and they're both on their property and uncovered and they sit there for a long period of time, that would be allowed in my opinion. Um,

we're not regulating snowmobiles and ATVs. So, in smaller recreational vehicles because they're not and are defined as such here. Correct. Recreational vehicle has to be habitable. Somebody wants to live on their snowmobile, then we right. Um, and one other thing I I the um the definition of vehicle as uh is proposed to be added to our code with this amendment. um says includes but is not limited to. Um so

maybe again we can certainly add in um snowmobile is defined as a vehicle. Um OV, UTV, etc. is defined as a vehicle. Uh we we can make those additions if uh the planning commission believes it would be this vehicle definition is this tied specifically to this ordinance? It is our our code does not currently define vehicles and if this code amendment is adopted it would make uh create that definition. So I guess that's where I have I don't know some issues. I don't know.

I mean, I can see Katie Fischer saying, well, I won't say it because we're on public record, but you know, that is just an overstep. But I do understand the issues that we have with the the used car lot on Highway 40. So, are there that many other places and making like the spa or even the folks at the um uh the old Frasier market with the snowmobile repairs having those vehicles out there in visible public is probably how they sell a lot of them

and you see it from Highway 40. So, I don't think we should deny people that ability. Not regulated here though, Katie. They're not a vehicle. Well, I think the Yeah, the the two vehicles in this list that we ought to look hard at are golf carts and motorcycles. So, do we have footprint? So, so this property that's our our problem property. Um, do they have any kind of a permit to be able to to have that? No.

Is there do we have any obligation for them to be able to have property? Or maybe that's what we have to look at. If you're going to have something for sale on your property that's considered a vehicle, you have to meet these certain regulation. I don't know. Well, it's a lot of broad for sale. Yeah. Right. I mean, I I like keep Fraser funky, but I like keep Fraser not junky. Not junk. So, but but again, Katie, we're not we're we're not calling out snowmobiles or ATVs. Yeah, I think we do need to probably not call out golf carts and motorcycles because those are similar footprint to the right

to those. We're just trying to get cars and RVs and trailers. Yeah. Um to to live up to at least be licensed,

you know, and not not stored in and part of the h it's part of a habitation problem, too. What's the sanitation for the guy living in the trailer without any kind of hookup? You know, where where's where's his waste going? Is it fluid? And if he's had a house for a long period of time, do we need to talk about a tap fee and impacts to the water and sewer systems? So, you know, two weeks your guess that's not a big deal, but a trailer becomes a seasonal housing, then then we we it does have an impact to the utility system. So, it's helping the housing problem. Yeah, seems like it's a privately owned commercial property and then if they are don't have a license to provide to rent space that those vehicles shouldn't be allowed there.

Well, but this is helping define that. Yeah. a problem is the code doesn't really the problem they're having with enforcing right is that there's they really don't have a mechanism in the code to to attach um to that particular location so this is an attempt to do that it just seems beyond this though the overreach could be I don't know so behind me Katie for about a year and a half I had an airirstream trailer with no windows in it that he was going to someday re refurbish and rehab. It finally disappeared, but it was, you know, Borl Brian and Katie had to look at it right outside their window for a year and a half.

So, and it really didn't serve any purpose. It didn't need, you know, but that's a residential area. I know. No, it's commercial. I'm in commercial. But this is all areas. And this is all areas too we're talking about. So, I don't know. Just guarantees some kind of level of um of junky, not funky. um standard without trying to turn us into a into a designer community. Funky funky funky. Not junky. Yeah, funky. Not That's pretty cute though. Can we put Can we put that funky but not junky?

That is an abuses code section. um that it does state like only one unlicensed or unregistered vehicle is permitted for property. Okay, that's really the point and and vehicles that are in disrepair disassembly are possibly being stripped or dismantled unless the garage. Okay, so this this piece of property are all of those licensed vehicles that are over there by the owner. I've checked I look at those plates and some are but most are not don't have current plates on them. Yeah. So, isn't that enough? Licensed by the owner. That's Well, not necessarily. Yeah, because then who knows it's junk. Sorry.

Okay. Addressing the issue with store for sale in these these are highway reference. Um, something else things in the residential area that are like old used appliances that aren't vehicles, but they're junk. We do have a junk ordinance. Yeah. So, this Well, I think I need to take a harder look at it in print. I don't think I vote on it tonight. If I can read what you're thinking is that folks in Oldtown Frasier will not be pleased with this kind of ordinance. Actually, I'm not thinking that.

No, I'm definitely thinking that. I'm just thinking about property owners and Oldtown's cleaned up quite a bit. Yeah. I mean, I just think, you know, there's so much of Frasier that are in HOAs already that are governing stuff like this. It's it's very few. It's old town Frraasier and it's some up with Wedi and stuff that aren't in HOAs. That's Yeah, Charming doesn't have a HOA, do they? Right. So, those are the only residential spots that are going to get affected by this that that'll see a change from this. Sure. Um, but those people probably chose those locations because they didn't want to be in an HOA and they didn't want somebody telling them what to do.

So, so it's too bad the property owner isn't here for us to hear from him what he's got to say. I don't know what have you guys I'm sure the town has spoken with them and yes with Scott. Yeah, but I mean it's none of these vehicles are are his. It's just but it's his property, isn't it? It's his property. He's really I don't think he really cares. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. So interesting. Try to enforce variety of ways of Okay. This is really

So, do we want to stick with 24 hours? That seems kind of abrupt, too. Is it just easier that way or a little longer period of time?

Um, look, if I could just maybe say a few things. I think the intention of this is not to have our code enforcement officers running around and issuing citations for every little thing, especially on residential property. We are all aware that there is an issue that has been unresolved for years and this code amendment would address that issue. And partially part of the if I could share my screen again, part of the intention and reasoning behind this is that the Rocky Mountain Moonshine property that use is as a liquor store. I would classify that as a commercial retail or personal service commercial use which is permitted in our business zone district. um that does not include vehicle storage, outdoor storage more broadly or vehicle sales. Okay, so that is that is part of the issue here. Examples about well what about the snowmobile repair and um sales business off of Highway 40 that is in our Riverwalk zone. Um that's pri its primary use is snowmobile repair sales and storage. Now, would that be considered a conditional use if a new business approached the town and say, "I want to open a snowmobile repair business." Yes, they would have to go through a conditional use permit. That is the case right now, I would argue, um, based on our code as currently written and our schedule of uses table. um nothing that existing uses are are doing. You know, there's there's grandfathered uses that are existing non-conforming, right? So, maybe they don't have a conditional use permit, but that use has been established. Um it's it's been the property's primary use for a number of years, likely predating any

sort of zoning regulations like this. So I I think you know at the risk of singling out you know an individual property frankly that is the issue here where we have um you know a a use which is not consistent with that primary use of the property and our current code lacks the ability to identify this non you know nonallowed use on what is a a commercial property. Um, does that make sense? Yes. I mean, we we built a lovely trail through there that Yeah. Yeah. So, so I I think it's it's a valid

You sum you summarized it beautifully in a much shorter. So, it's that intended use versus what they're using,

right? So, anytime we make a change to these use regulations in our code, more broadly speaking, um you know, something that is an existing primary use almost certainly is going to be grandfathered in. We do not have that case with the Rocky Mountain Moonshine property. Again, to be clear, vehicle sales and storage is not the primary use of that property, right? Um, but other businesses that are more adjacent to that, you know, um, I think sometimes like Ace Hardware has materials outside

probably for longer than a 24-hour period. you know, it we're not seeking to, you know, bring a hard hammer down on uh everyone and and really, you know, again, some selective enforcement here is is kind of the intention and certainly to work with property owners to identify appropriate solutions. So, so like would you be grandfathering in the hot tub guy or would you suggest that maybe a fence might be more appropriate? Right.

Yeah. I I mean I think I'm frankly not personally familiar with the length of time that hot tubs are being stored outside on that property. um you know is an outdoor storage area for um goods and materials that are related to a retail or service business. Um you know does that meet the definition of outdoor storage? It's it is a bit of a gray area given that it's clearly incidental to that retail or service business. But I I mean I I do think in the case there, town staff could certainly try to work with that property owner to see what avenues would be available to screen or create an accessory storage building or things of that nature.

Can you go back to the previous slide, please? Sure. Um it was this one. The next one that's got the Yes.

Yeah. This is the regulation. So again, just as a reminder, when we're talking about outdoor storage as a use and these regulations here, we're talking about that is the only use on that property. It's not um I have the hot tub business or I have Ace Hardware and I do have some materials stored outside occasionally. I would argue again in those cases outdoor storage is not the primary use for those properties. Okay. So that's where this falls in. This is addressing those that are not the primary use. Correct.

Or clearly incidental to the primary use. So I wonder if that second bullet point if it were dropped and we kept kept this focused on vehicles that might make things a bit easier. Um cuz the outdoor storage we do have junkheads is but I mean there are ways to do outdoor storage. I mean Burdox I think has done a reasonable has done reasonable you know they've enclosed it. It's doesn't look trashy. It doesn't just look like somebody just threw a bunch of stuff there and Yeah. hope that it landed right side up back

except out back. Yeah. Yeah. So, does our junk ordinance cover this fairly well as far as outdoor storage goes or So, outdoor storage, it mainly pertains to discarded items. Um, you know, structure materials need to be stacked and organized. I think maybe language can be added to this that supports the business operation or the intended youth behind the business. Um, work well. Um, not too short. No, the business is is fairly short. Um,

and you go back to you don't have any enforcement capability. You just go over and say, "Hey, Mr. Hot Tub guy, I really like a hot tub, but can you move back there so we can't really see all of them?" That's not enforcement really, right? No. So on that second bullet, should it just say out outdoor storage of vehicles, right? Is your Well, that that's because RV is a vehicle. I think if Yeah, my focus is I mean if I lost Derek and Frasier Snowmobile, I'd be

walking through the woods regularly trying to get to my hut for sure. So, and he does small engine repair and part of his income there is this assignment snowmobile sales and stuff moves through there pretty pretty pretty well. The hot tub guy that's there is large merch merchandise. It's hard to hard to put a roof over. Yeah. So, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. So, I know which I don't we don't want a big building there. Look, I don't think it' be. So, anyway. Yeah, but I mean a fence around it. Screening. Yeah, screening. Doesn't have to have a roof. It's tall enough fence. Okay. So, fences take care of it building.

Yeah. Yeah, they do. Well, remember uh remember the um the vehicles that were stored that was um the repair place and we the big issue we had and we ended up making them put a fence around it. Uh, Hilly, remember that? Yeah, Hilly. The same same problem. Yeah. Yeah. Behind Ace there. So, sure. We made him put a fence around it. Let's uh let's open this up to public input just a little bit if we could, please. Any any members of the public like to comment on this?

Hi, Clark Lipkcom. For the record and Bob, thanks for your comments. Um, I think this is a a good effort. Um, kind of wonder what drives it. I do have some questions like, you know, we have a big equipment yard, right? It's

what happens to my equipment yard. Uh, I haven't seen any heavy equipment at Emry's. Uh, I had two skid steers for sale on my property. I own them, but, you know, they were clean. They're actually very new. They have nice for sale signs on them by my gas station. Actually got tired of looking at them. Told the guys I sold one and I told the guys get the other one out of here because I'm tired of looking at it. Um, but you know, I I think what's maybe not addressed, and maybe the dealership thing does address it, is, you know, if somebody owns their vehicles and they're selling them, but having a limitation, you can only sell one every six months or something is kind of problematic when you have the number of vehicles I have or, you know, Brian, you have a few vehicles. Is it a good example? So, let's say Brian wanted to, you know, move some transit vans, you know, and it would present a problem for he's going to sell one every six months. Um, I mean, I think we

So, but I I can I interrupt you for just so this ties into your primary use though of the property, the business and the property, right? So if yeah but his if Brian's is his primary use his home James and if he needs to put a for sale sign on one of his vans that should be allowed because you think because it's under our primary use his office is upstairs in the shopping center. Yeah. His primary use is moving people in vans not selling vans. That's right the problem. And that your heavy equipment is a part of your yard. It is and I own it all. Um yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess that's kind of what the heart of what I'm getting at is, you know, perhaps it's more focused on like and by the way, like I've had junk cars just like just show up in our yard and like we're all over it all the time, but I've literally had two metal dumpster off with junk cars in them, pick them up with a loader, put them in the dumpster. That's

And I mean, we have to call the police because then it's a burden. It's a really it's it's a hassle, guys. I'm happy to get rid of junk cars for people because it gets them from not being around our town. Um, but I got to call the police. You got to clear the VIN. You got to clear the license plate. All this stuff before I can get rid of it. And I got to look at this junk, you know, until it's gone. That's a problem. Our equipment yard will be moving. As you all know, I've got 4W.1 approved there, four more condo buildings, and that yard has to go away. Now, having construction material storage at the scale that we build, uh, is, you know, pretty important. And, and so, you know, we try to keep it neat and clean. It does get messy from time to time. So, I worry about how some of the stuff's written uh targeting, you know, us and then it's just another unnecessary big fight that is completely not needed. I, you know, I don't think our yard looks great and I think it presents a sales impediment for us in certain ways. And certainly, I'm motivated and focused on one keeping it neat and organized, but more importantly, making it go away and put more buildings there. That's my ultimate end goal. Um, so I mean I think you know everybody's talked about Emory's property on 40 continues to kind of you know amalgamate a bunch of junk stuff. Uh, and I don't know if there's a more targeted way. I mean I can JNL was not the best looking. Still not the best looking right in the dead center of town. Um, you know it's better since Larry's gone and operations aren't there etc. It's been cleaned up a little bit. And I think they sold a bunch of stuff. But I why not have a situation where somebody's selling their private if it's their vehicle and they own the vehicle and they're selling it that that's you know allowed on their property. I mean Bob wants to put a for sale sign in his car in his drive. We have really strict covenants at Grand Park. Really strict. And um but if Bob wants to put a for sale sign and park in his driveway where people can see it with a for sale sign. I don't have a restriction against Bob selling his car in his driveway as an example.

Yeah. Um, so I mean I I think maybe there's I think there's a great goal and I fully support like clean up the town. You know, you've you've heard my you know the trash of Frasier and seen my powerpoints of the dumpsters and you know frankly behind Murdoch's I was picking up trash in our field last week. No, two weeks ago. It was last week I was gone. Two weeks ago it's like endless. I mean my my store manager I called him out there. It's like where is this coming from? And it's all coming from behind Murdoch, right? And it blows into our field, right? And I mean our employees go pick up trash all the time outside our buildings, but it's really annoying when it's not your trash or not related to your business. Okay.

So, it's all I mean, I think this is a common related item to the junk ordinance that I referred to because I remember they passed the junk ordinance and maybe it's been referred to now as a nuisance ordinance. I think here this ordinance is presented if you removed stored materials and let the nuisance ordinance take care of materials. I think that I think that would help. I'll do more research. I don't want to, you know, change apply. Yeah,

I think if you remove stored materials looking at the business code, it does address uh construction and build building materials to be neatly stacked organized. Um and then anything that's abandoned any abandoned objects obviously are not good. But that takes care of the issues related to Ace Hardware. Um the snowmobile snowmobile. Yeah. And the jacuzzi. Yeah. Various spas. So we can we can continue to we address the core issue here

and then as we see that okay we want to address this maybe this next level if we really see it as a problem um we can address it. Yeah. But right now, the nuisance code has several things layered as far as tires and how they're supposed to be stacked and organized in this building, construction material being stacked and organized. I think that if you remove the materials part, maybe that handles the issue. I think that would I think that's a really good suggestion. Yeah. And just kind of narrow the focus. The other thing I'd caution you on is the suggestion that you could screen it with a fence. And and what I could envision is Scott going and putting a great big fence right up along 40 and you're still gonna see all the junk behind it. Okay. So,

there's a reason we call for a building permit on anything. Well, and yeah, why couldn't you? My family's in the car business, right? I mean, we have car dealerships all over. Why not have It's my older brother's stuff. Why not have a situation where, you know, if it's if it's an approved permitted Yeah. car lot that is a licensed dealer and maybe that's the intent that they could do that but then they still have to come to you to get approval. Yeah. To be able to have that use in that location, I think. Yeah, they right. Yes. So, I mean, yeah. Versus all the

Yeah. Just kind of random. It is. It's random. It's not good. I agree with Paul on that. So, I just want to make sure we're not getting targeted on on the heavy equipment, the construction side. I'm very sensitive to that obviously as you can understand and and of all people you know I want to make sure our town looks great all the time. So make Frasier classy. Thank you sir and not junky classy. Thanks guys. Thanks Parkin Frasier. Um would shipping containers be considered appropriate storage you know on residential or commercial properties? They they're already regulated out of the business zone and I've got a non-conforming shipping container if you want to go there. Well, I wasn't bringing up you. There's other ones,

but we did I believe that's already been regulated out of the business zone. I believe so. Containers. Yeah. So, because I know they're not allowed in the Riverwalk district, nor storage units, but we have two of them in there. Yeah. No, so that that's already been I I remember that came through the town board. So, if this helps, um, the state law has it that you can sell four vehicle, I believe it's four, it may be three, but four vehicles a year before you need a state license to be a dealer. So, you can only sell four. I think you guys were trying to restrict it to two for personal property sales, one every six months. Um, well, we hadn't talked about that at all. We just said that. Yeah. Yeah. It was in the reading materials. Well,

uh, just, you know, the state has it at four, I think, is what they have it at. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um um what about the garages? You brought it up, Margaret. What about the garages that are working on cars? Because there's at the two garages in town, there's probably 15 cars sitting out in front of them. Well, primary business. That's a primary. No, but remove all of his cars at the time. So, I'm not saying we need to. I just I'd like to see him fenced in or something new location.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No worries. I'm I'm all for it. I like they do a nice job. They're watching the floor. So, it's all concerns too much. Yeah. I just want it knowing a few people in town. I'd like it to keep be fair for everybody. That's all. Sure. Sure. Otherwise, we're going to have more upset people coming in and screaming. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, sir. No screaming. It's not

Bob Wolf again. Um, concerning the heavy equipment last winter, uh, there were two um, heavy machine uh, snow plows that were parked there and and then they had big old snow blower uh, in there. So winter's approaching and they, you know, they were plugging them in right there to keep them warm and then they were just parked there when it when it didn't snow. So I don't know where their big snowblower went and where they were using, but it seemed like they were basing out of the the liquor store there, you know. So

So there were two heavy caterpillar uh machines there for for the winter last year. So this s sort of thing that can be the staff like like the artist has said several times that they're not going to hone in on things that make sense. Yeah, that made sense last winter of course. So I think the other good discussion points have come up tonight, you know, about what's related to the business and what's not related to the business. So um I think that's a good clarification on all of it. Clearly none of this is related to Scott's business at all unless he's in the business of renting out parking spaces, but we don't know about it.

Scott doesn't care. I mean, we've talked to him. He doesn't care. Just Yeah. Go ahead and do it. And you know, like like the last six days there was I don't know if you've noticed the Rocky's roofing van around town lately. Yeah. You know, it's bright purple. It's you know, and u you know, it's I've seen it up in Winter Park. It just sits up there for six, seven days. It sat at Scots for six, seven days here. I've seen it. Yeah. I mean, it it just he just moved it this morning. That's good advertising. Well, that's how he's advertising. And that's how Bullfrog the trailers are, you know, the spa dealer in Graanby. That's how he's he's parking his trailer. And I've seen the trailers that are people are

they're also kind of basing themselves out of I mean, there's materials in them. They got people that that uh pull up, they open up the door, they're pulling materials out of them. So, it seems like they're working out of them. Yeah. So, there's a lot of miscellaneous uses that are being uh done with the vehicles that are that are parked there that Scott has. You know, Scott lives in Grampy and he doesn't really care. Yeah. Okay. So, thanks, Bob. Okay. Thanks, Bob. Okay. Um any other public members? Okay. All right. So, any more discussion from the board? It seems like if we drop the materials section out of this and focus in on vehicles tonight, that does that make sense?

And then we can tweak the junk ordinance later, talk about some possible changes to that. And you guys are all good with the 24hour. Well, the problem is with with that longer time period is he shuffles them around. He gets license plates. It just it just becomes the code officers back and forth all the time. I think that's what's been going on with some with some of this, isn't it, Garrett? I mean, that's part of the reason for the It's kind of like a feeder. You know, if if you set it at 35, you might allow 45, but if you set it at 45, then people are going to go 55. It's a whack-a-ole type routine. Yeah.

Interesting. And again, we depend on staff and our code enforcement officer to be reasonable and and work with people, but they need some tools to to be able to finally bring the hammer down if it's necessary. So, I'd like to make a motion. Okay. Thanks, Peggy. Uh for uh Frasier Planning Commission resolution number 2025902 focusing on unregulated vehicle sales and display Um, and removing any references to what's the section there, Garrett? Uh, give me one second and I'll I'll pull the resolution up. I apologize.

Sure. She'll get you'll get you the section number, Peggy. So, essentially, it sounds like the request is to add a condition uh that removes materials. Is that it? Where's the amendments going to be equal to me? I will share that.

Maybe it's in the title. Outdoor storage. So the the concern is with um the definition of outdoor storage. Yes.

Um and the key concern is having these words equipment, goods, junk, material, merchandise, right? By amen amending the definition of outdoor storage to remove see it but equipment and goods and material references and merchandise junk.

I think you can remove the equipment that doesn't address some issues we have with large file plates that nature. on these properties. The material is really the key component I think is material or goods. What do you guys think? Material and merchandise. Yeah. Goods could be related to a business. Material. Material could be related to a business. Merchandise could be related to a business which is a primary purpose. But junk, no. Yeah. So just remove the words goods, material, and merchandise. Okay, that makes sense, Peggy.

Yep. Yep. Reference session. But by leaving equipment in there, does that affect? No. Well, it's defined equipment is defined as um so all of this is abandoned for sale. I mean equipment that's in use is not going to be a problem and parking equipment for sale for a brief period of time isn't going to be a problem. So, but if it's his equipment on his property that he owns,

right? I'm just saying it and it is the use. What do we mean when we leave equipment in there then? Well, we mean that that you can't have three payloaders for sale for two years out. So, the snow the snow plow, the snow cat, it's got to go. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. That's And again, we we trust in our code enforcement officer, our staff to work work with people and and uh work out a resolution. We're not trying to shut We're not trying to shut down Clark's equipment, right? It's equipment that's not related to his primary business. You want to put a parenthetical in that's not related to the primary business. Would that help?

Okay. No, we can intent behind this. We did the previous resolution. Is that a condition? Yeah. Thanks, guys. resolution for recommendations. Yes. So you can tweak your condition to address merchandise material storage. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

The junk. I wouldn't worry about the junk because that's already addressed in the news code. Mhm. So anyway, Clark, his suggested condition is staff shall evaluate removing the words oops the words goods, material, and merchandise from the definition of outdoor storage from the ordinance. Okay. Okay. Sounds good. I second it then. So, the motion would be to pass this ordinance with condition number one. Um, and a second by Bob. All in favor? I I I. Any opposed? I'm going to oppose it. I'm sorry. I'm opposing. Okay. All right. I'm in favor. So, let's let's take a a voice vote, please. I I

Nay. I I I I Thank you. Thanks everybody. Okay, so other business. Um, email retention policy. We're getting piled up emails. Thanks, Antonet.

Hi, Planning Commission. Antinet McY, town clerk. Um, so the matter before the board is um the staff has gotten together and we have written an email retention policy. Um, in March of 2023, the board adopted a resolution um 202304 adopting um an updated open records policy. Um, and the email retention policy aligns with an updated open records policy and the state retention schedule. Um, it's part of an ongoing effort to improve all of our email management, security, and compliance with the Colorado Open Records Act. The town is implementing this policy um, effective of January 1st of 2026. Um managing email retention is a critical to efficiency and responding to the open records request and reducing unnecessary data storage and security risks. Um email is a communication tool. It's not meant to be a records management system. Um we are finding that a lot of um staff is using email to store information rather than putting it where it should be. Um and it creates a lot of challenges when you do open records requests. Um and then so the reason it's coming to the planning commission and it will go to the board of trustees next week um is because the town staff or the um planning commission and the board of trustees do have town of Fraser email addresses um you do not have access to the town servers to be able to save emails. So the as a result the emails are stored in Outlook, Office 365 and um yeah they cannot be retained beyond the two years. Um you guys don't have access to store any of that information in our servers. So, if an email contains information with long-term or permanent value that must be retained beyond the two years, those emails need to be emailed to to

the town clerk and the town clerk will evaluate um the content to determine if it meets the criteria for long-term preservation. And this might in turn this might also bring in the town attorney or the town the uh town manager to also evaluate these emails. Um, so what's going to happen is starting on January 1st of 2026, emails will be automatically deleted on the first of each month, um, and this will include all emails that have reached a 2-year retention period across all folders. It means your inbox, your sent, your delete, your junk drafts, any subfolders that you've created to store your emails. Um, this will be done automatically by our IT team in the background and this is not a manual process that will happen. Um, so it won't take any work on your end for these emails to be deleted. Um, but it's something that you do need to think about as we're coming up to this January 1st that this is going to happen and that those emails that beyond that two years are going to be deleted and they will not be retrievable and they will you will never be able to find them again. um which is why we're bringing it to you guys now so you have the time to evaluate which may be in your inboxes or in your outlook um that may need to be um stored for any historical purposes. It would really be have to have real real retaining value um that might help the town down the road with a decision that was potentially made um or conversation that might have been had that could the town may need to refer to that at some later point in time. Um, so you have to think about all correspondents from any of the town attorneys or any of our special counsel are considered confidential and are not required to be disclosed to any open records request that is written into our open records policy currently. Um, and an email chain, this was an important one. If an email chain has been running or existed that will reach a 2-year mark, only the emails of that chain that

were originally sent or received two years ago will be deleted. But the contextual tale of the details and the replies and the sense will remain in the newer emails to house that information. Um but the original emails themselves would be deleted.

Um because this does follow um the actual retention schedule of the state. There's no action required um for this to be adopted by the board or the planning commission. But we wanted to inform everybody that this is happening. Um, we did sit down, we with our staff, um, we did go through this and we did bring in a group and we all sat down and made sure that this made sense for everybody. Um, and try to make sure that everybody would have the time necessary to implement this policy. Does anybody have any questions for me on this or what this could look like? Well, I think these emails would go evaluated, you know, if you think that a certain email relates to a certain project or an address or a ordinance or like that that can go into laser fish that can that document can go as like a readable document that's just in organized folder in our record. um if you feel like that's necessary and I'll you know this is something that u and I have been talking about for a while and you know sometimes for me it was kind of a shock it's just like man there's things that I sometimes reference but honestly when I to reference something there and I think there's going to be value in being referenced there really in my experience of looking through all these things because everything's either recorded in the minutes for public meetings recorded in documentation um all those different things. But if you feel like there's something of value that pertains to a certain thing, um you know, we can put it with that thing and then it's it lives there forever. Um

so, uh this helps address issues when we get a core request that requires what's the biggest time estimate given for the last year. I mean that that one it was I I can't even remember it was we were looking at months to fulfill the the request because it was thousands. It was so emails from one individual or any email that that had a specific word in it that goes back to the you know 15 20 years. Yeah. Oh that's crazy.

I mean that's not a good use of our staff time. No way. and uh and everything else that requires adequate storage. We have good storage. Um Ant's been a huge part of that with our our our online or cloud-based storage system that can access remotely or here in town hall. Um, so

and it and it it really for this as far as the staff goes, it really helps us to um, you know, when your position uh, when a staff person ends their position and a new person comes in and you're giving all of the emails from that previous staff person. Nobody has the time to deal with that. Nobody wants to do that. Um, but any really pertinent information that should be saved needs to be again located in that folder in a repository that refers to that very specific item um that maybe that next person coming in could find that information. Um, it's really trying to cut down on um any of those those again those open records requests or a lot of information that's just really unnecessary to have anymore. I mean basically emails lead to a work product eventually. That's what you're that's what you're after and that's preserved

minutes and through ordinances through correct plans I mean those are the things that we preserve in that are important to the public but these email chains that go back you know three four five years like you said you might think there's some value there but you go back and what really do in my experience you had a waste of a lot of time. Yeah, really it's already better captured in minutes or some type documentation whatever the email was working to produce. Right. If anything it's probably it's not people that sent or may not remember the cont.

Sure. Um so that's just my two cents except for just like oh it's kind of a scary thing but in reality um we we all think this is the right so we don't need to do anything you don't need advising us. Yeah, correct. Like there's something that this is burden this should in store with this particular item and just being more thoughtful that more active to it versus something falling through the cracks that you probably forgot about that could be relevant to a project. The idea that email will last forever, you know, and I mean really and you must all know that all of your emails are open to the public requests. Yeah.

Everything unless it unless it's the town attorney or the town council. We our IT team can pull all of those emails. So again, I just reiterate, be aware of what you write in emails. The public can can read those emails. Don't ever copy anybody other than staff. Correct. Right. You know, so always keep that in mind when you're emailing with people. Sometimes it's better for a phone call. Yeah. Yeah. Come by and see us. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks, Anthony. Okay. Any discussion of future agenda items or other business?

Okay. Please. We've been having discussions about this being a whistless stop. So that did you I was thinking I was thinking about bringing it up and I was like I don't know if we want Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. So, I talked Paul about that today. Um, we're going to be moving forward with u bringing that to the the board for that become the whistleless guys because no we so we did a study of that and we found it was like a half million dollar project. I thought I think they've changed the requirements

discussed with C do to meet for the requirements and right now it meets the requirements. If you want to add like additional signage or additional safety precautions, you could. But it does meet the requirements now based on the seed requirements for submitting an application for a list of stuff that meets that requirement. Okay, that'd be great. Because that was the reason it was not not put forward before is because the previous study showed it was going to be a half million dollar project change or something updated this spin that fall had directly. Yeah. and with we had it with our the state legislature also with Julie and their their office. So yeah, good. That's good news.

Great. Move to adjourn. Second. All in favor? I I thanks everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Sorry about you. I