Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

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All right, Jeff, thank you. Yes, sir. Call the Franklin Township Planning Commission meeting of June 4th, 2026 to order at 7.09 p.m. First order of business is any public comment? Is there any public? Having no public comment, hopefully everybody's had a chance to review the meeting minutes of April 2nd, 2026. Stacey, are there any comments or motion to approve those minutes?

Stacey, those are the ones with my comments in it?

Yes, the version.

I guess I should ask you, Stacey, are you able to see all the attendees through the... Yes, I know.

Hold on a minute.

Yes, we've got the Franklin Township family here. No residents. We have Nate Klein and Guy Donatelli.

Jeff, is Rachel on?

She is not on. I'm waiting for her to come. So I wouldn't wait for her.

I'd get started. Right. So we're on the minutes of April 2nd. Anybody need further time to review? Can I receive a motion to approve the minutes? I make a motion to approve the minutes. That's from Mark Harris. Do I have a second? I second. Thank you, Chuck. Any discussion? All in favor of the motion, say so by saying aye. Aye. Any opposed? No opposed. Next order of business is discussion of data centers. Maybe it would be a good time with having Guy on the meeting. Is it something that you would like to start Guy by introducing

I'd be happy to.

Great, thank you.

So for the community, and I'm sure because everyone is aware of what's going on, there's an issue with respect to a particular type of use, which in many instances has been referred to as a nuisance. And that is data centers. And although our information does not indicate that Franklin Township is a, and I'm going to put these words in quote, a hotspot at the current time for data centers, you think matters. and development intentions can change. So it has been the recommendation of your planners and your solicitor's office that you consider an ordinance that's tailored to the orderly development of and placement of potential data centers, not that we're seeking them, but to provide for that ordinance structure should one come within our orbit. And in taking a look at that, we've looked at several forms of ordinances passed by several townships, some in Chester County, as well as efforts at the Commonwealth level to either promote the use of data centers or regulate them more strictly at the state level. So the reason that this has been a topic of conversation is that data center use is a especially certain types of data centers, are intensive uses of energy, water. They have environmental and quality of life issues that are different than a lot of other sorts of uses. They are not a hive of activity by humans. So some of the benefits that a township or community might see by a thriving industrial or commercial site are not there. And so there's been efforts made to develop these data centers in other jurisdictions. Recently up here, I'm in the north, recently in one of the Pikelands, I think it was East Pikeland, one was just denied. I'm sure the courts will work through that if there's an appeal. And in other townships, there have been efforts to slow down the rate of applications of data centers through the use of curative amendments and things of that nature. So that at 10,000 feet is why we're discussing this particular initiative. And just so that the appropriate notice is provided, we had an executive session with respect to this issue as to its legal implications so that the Planning Commission could get my legal views and opinions on it. So that's what we have. And that should start the discussion, I think.

Great. Thank you, Guy. So in preparing for the meeting tonight, we received much information in terms of suggested ordinances from other municipalities, the county's data center ordinance guide. Nate has had a Nate Klein, our engineer, has had some comments to help guide us to get started. Nate, do you feel like you want to say a few words before?

Yeah, I can kind of follow up. Yeah, I can follow up on his commentary real quick, guys. Yeah, so I think Guy summarized it very well. Certainly seeing it all over the county, all over the region, obviously being involved with the county planning commission. We've been heavily involved there, their staff. I think they did a very nice job working with Montgomery County on their data center ordinance guideline. It's not a draft ordinance, but guidelines. That's in the packet that Jeff had sent you, essentially this bluish document here. You know, I think... Not to get into the politics of it, but of course, in the state of Pennsylvania, it's all over the map. There's a lot of people, you know, screaming and yelling both ways on this. Politically, there's a lot of hot button things. I do think Guy is correct in air quotes. This is not something that's, you know, happening tomorrow in Franklin and something's on the way. But we don't know what these will be a year from now, six months from now, the technology changes. So it does behoove these municipalities to have proper regulations in place so that, you know, these potential applicants aren't trying to grab something else in our ordinance. enforce the issue or make something happen and try to get into a lawsuit and those types of things. So I think this is a very good proactive action that municipalities should be taking. And really, in my vantage point, I think in the email I sent Jeff that he included, I targeted maybe one, probably two different areas in the zoning district that if you guys were moving forward that seemed to be logical to me. I'm not saying that's Fair, right. Just what it is based on my interpretation of your zoning ordinance. You know, the converse, just as a comparison, you know, doing the same exercise with Westchester Borough. Right. So you can imagine how do you zone Westchester Borough to allow for a large scale data center. Right. So similar types of complications. And, you know, you guys would have different maybe setbacks. with the more rural nature of things out there as well. So, you know, I think tonight was really just to kind of start briefing you guys a little bit. I do see the action items as probably a couple things. One is, you know, my recommendation is always for maybe the solicitor to take the lead on maybe the initial draft. Two would be if there's specific feedback or direction from the planning commission that the guy should be looking at. Guy would typically prepare maybe a draft. Jeff, myself, maybe we take first crack at looking at it before running it by the planning commission and then going down the typical path. One thing that I would probably provide guide directly is we have prepared a very detailed, improved noise and vibration aspect to these ordinances. It's a very niche industry. I've got several professionals in our company that do this that are PhDs. So we had them work with a few municipalities recently and draft something that was. realistic and able to be enforced and able to be interpreted by code officials and be able to, while still needing professionals, something that was able to be much, much more workable. So that's one thing I would probably insert. And then otherwise, it's a lot of area in bulk and making some decisions on area in bulk requirements. So, you know, that's probably my overview. And while Guy is still here, I just maybe for sake of clarity, Guy, is it... Is it fair to say that something we cannot do is place a moratorium on these, right? Like that's misguided, for lack of a better term. I know there's a lot of social media buzz out there about that. That would have to come from the state. Do we have that correct? I don't want to put you on the spot, but.

No, no, you can put me on the spot because that was a component of the executive session. And I'm happy to collaborate with you offline. And I've given my thoughts to the commission on that, which I would prefer to keep between me and my client, at least for the time being.

That's fine. Yep. So, you know, so to that, I guess, you know, maybe turn it over to the Planning Commission. I mean, is there specific aspects you would like to dig in on or like some feedback on? You know, again, I've been involved in these in a few different ways. We're not designing them. So that's maybe good or bad here locally. But we're not here locally, though. I know we've been involved in other projects nationwide. But if there's any specific questions, you want to flip through certain portions of different ordinances or, you know, if it's going to be easier for the planning commission to, you know, get a draft and then provide some feedback and ask questions at that point, if that's a more efficient way to do it. But, you know, certainly flexible to whatever direction you guys want to proceed with. And, you know, I'm here to help. I think I'm here to help and get something on the books.

Thanks, Nate. So to answer some of those questions that have come up, is the planning commission ready to dive in? to write an ordinance, or is there any flavor to look at a moratorium? I personally am in favor of trying to get this ordinance going and on the books.

Yeah, I mean, the moratorium seems like it's more fraught with potential bad outcomes than working on an ordinance and taking our time on it.

Great. Any other comments before we start talking about how to draft an ordinance?

I concur with that. Let's write the ordinance.

In getting ready for tonight, Nate and Guy, is there one draft ordinance or a county guide that sticks out that we should use as a guide, do you think?

No, I don't. I can provide a more critical view on that if I get a chance to dive into the three or four that I have, if I could get another day or two on that. Because each one of them, it's like the synoptic Gospels, right? If you read the synoptic Gospels, they're very similar, but there are differences and they're important differences. Then, of course, you have the Book of John, which is really different. But the the concept here is to collect the best from the ordinances that we have and then try to sort of mix, mix and match. And I haven't really done that yet. I don't know that I would say, hey, here's an ordinance. I've turned it. Here's an ordinance from. you know, East Jubbip Township that I like. Here's a word version of it. Work with that. I'd like to go through the ones that I've read and sort of piece together large portions of it for you to review. For example, the definitional sections are all very similar. And I would be able to take all the definitions from the ones I have and make sure those are good. A lot of the environmental protection concepts are similar. Setbacks are different. There's a lot of things that I would want to leave to the Planning Commission and And to a second look so give me a, give me a little time to put that together and I'll have something substantive for you to look at when you, you know, for your next meeting, and I do want to see what Nate has because I don't know that he and I have shared a bunch of things.

You know, guys, I think we're kind of on the same wavelength. I think it's going to be a lot easier to digest if we can kind of, you know, a guy can take the lead on creating something. I've seen probably more bad ordinances than good ordinances out there, and I'm not going to name specific municipalities or names. Um, so I'm kind of with Guy, if he's got a few things that he likes, I think we were better off trying to fit something together. Um, I'm happy to partner with him a little bit and I can feed him some of the good stuff I've seen on noise stuff, especially, um, and then kind of tee up the setback Balkan area for, for Franklin's. and its nature. And then I think even then kind of highlight some of these things that maybe are, hey, we could use some input or thoughts. Do you guys like these or which direction you want to go? You know, I think that could just be a more productive way to get to the finish line than bouncing around a little bit. Again, unless there's specific components you guys really feel strongly about you want to chime in on. But, you know, again, there's a lot of information to read out there.

Can I jump in? Please. One thing, that I want to make sure that we address is not only, so the county addressed the very large data centers. They go through and they define all the data centers, but then they say, we're going to really focus on the very large ones. I really think that it's important that we focus on all of them. Remembering originally with the The cell towers, cell towers came through, everybody only perceived cell towers as being what's in cross and park. And then three years later, we're evaluating mini cell towers. What do they mean? What's that all gonna be? So I can see just looking at data centers and some of the things that we've been looking at from an architecture standpoint, the low hanging fruit where you can build these giant data centers Those areas are disappearing very quickly. We're not in one of those areas. But I see threat that now there's going to be smaller, more niche. And I think it's important that we're prepared for that because we could be right in that.

I think that's really well said. The technology is changing so rapidly, it's hard to even stay in tune, right? Two years ago, give or take, they had to be next to the Schuylkill River or the Delaware River and pull in millions of gallons of water. Well, now they're now getting loop systems and now they're looking at different, you know, almost chemical type treatments to cool these centers. So the technology is changing so rapidly. Some of the original and even what even this county document we have there, some of the original perceptions like, well, you're only going to see it here, here and here, you know, could dissipate fairly quickly. And then we're still trying to play catch up. So I think, you know, that's a good forward looking way to approach it.

I mean, at the risk of predicting the future, we were talking about the limited industrial zone. The limited industrial zone that is basically a giant rotating corn and or soybean field across the street from me that has the Pico substation in the middle of it. would probably be the logical location for them to put a, not a hyperscale because it wouldn't be big enough, but a mid-scale data center. And I mean, and Pico owns that land and leases it out for farming, but I'm sure some, you know, data center company could come in and offer them a lot more money, you know, so that, that, that, for me personally, has a potential large impact. So yeah, I definitely think, and I'm not the only one, obviously, but I definitely think that this is something that needs the attention paid.

Zach, I think that's really, really well said. I mean, when you look at and analyze the township, you know, again, your instinct is to go right towards any type of industrial type zonings. And again, when we evaluate your township in Franklin, there's really only two zoning districts where it even comes close. And then, like you said, there's really only one maybe track where it even is applicable. And frankly, we ran into the same scenario in Westchester Borough. There's really only one or two parcels where it could even be really, you know, quasi applicable. And maybe Guy can chime in on this. What we also don't want to be doing is writing an ordinance to allow something, but then inherently not allowing it because of that opens us up to potential legal issues as well. Right. So it's got to be something that's, you know, defensible while also being realistic, while also protecting residents and all those various factors. I don't know, maybe Guy, you could say it more eloquently than me, but that's kind of how I perceive it.

No, that's as well said as anyone could say it. I would say we don't want any unintended consequences either. So we should be deliberate in our analysis.

And I'm sorry, the last thing I'll just chime in on, too, again, between Chuck and Zach, those comments, right? A lot of what we're seeing out there in the universe right now, even locally, is, again, you know, sites that are like, oh, that won't be a data center because it's something else. And they're like, there's so much money out there in these. They're like. no no we'll just bulldoze all that we'll put them there right so you can't almost even assume just because something's there again if it's owned by multiple property owners that's obviously you know something different but we're seeing some of these business park type sites up in upper marion uh limerick up in the poconos that are existing business parks, or maybe, you know, with that business revenue on the downside, not as much office, you know, people looking to renovate those and move those into the data center world. So again, that unpredictability, Chuck, of where these things go, it's easy to say, well, there's a huge field that's hundreds of acres. But again, where this goes in the next few years, we almost don't know.

I mean, I guess another question, and this obviously predates me, I don't know if PICO and Franklin Township have an arrangement, an agreement, or whatever, that maintains the land around the substation as being an agricultural use in order to be placed there. I mean, you know, the utilities are their own special, you know, thing.

Zach, there is no agreement.

What is the use?

That's limited industrial and it's public utility, which is its own...

Sorry, Zach. Jeff, do you know what... It probably pre-existed. Do they have a declared use?

Chuck, that's That place has been there prior to 1976 when I arrived here. So it's not like we have something where I can go to the file for you guys and say, here it is.

The current zoning district map was well after Jeff arrived too.

But looking real quick, I mean, if you look at the use regulations, right, in that district, public utility structure facility, subject to various provisions, again, whether that was put in after the fact or not, Chuck, that seems to be at least address that as opposed to it being a non-conforming use per se. Right.

Something else that needs to be considered when you're thinking about whether you're creating plausibility for actual construction of this. We've got a fair amount of permanently preserved land, which just because you see a big open parcel in an agricultural area doesn't mean it's a billable parcel. So in addition to the fact that the light industrial thing, which is about 73 acres, I was looking at Chesco views. Yeah, that one parcel is the most plausible. Got very good access to a lot of electricity. And water. Yeah. So, you know, but at the same time, you're potentially looking at a loss of woodland, depending on where they want to build, although that is also where the woods are is where the streams are. But this is – it really is one of the most logical parcels.

Jumped out pretty quickly, guys, to me. Again, that's without going into a residentially zoned area, right? I kind of – jump that step a little bit. Unless, you know, in theory, could you create a special zoning district or change some other residential zoning to limit industrial? Absolutely. Is that something that will fall flat in the public? Also, absolutely. If we've got something that's viable in LI, I think that's got to be the focus would be my recommendation. Because anytime you try to change something that's already zoned to a low density residential, I think that's a losing battle, in my opinion. But that does exist out in the world, but we've kind of skipped past that a little bit.

You may have a spot zoning issue there, too, as well.

Sure. Should we look at SU?

SU is only this little chunk down here, I think, which is, I think, is it the Forrest Gump property?

Yeah. It's all residential.

It's all zoned residential right here?

Yeah, the big SU is all residential.

Yeah, it's not Forrest Gump. Forrest Gump was on the other side.

It's west of Forrest Gump, I think, is how it is, Chuck. Yeah, yep. Which I enjoy. I was out there with Jeff the other day on Forrest Gump Road. It's true. It's actually the name. But, guy, would it behoove them to zone something that's already developed, right? Like, does that fall flat? You know what I mean? Yeah.

It's like giving somebody the sleeves off your vest. I mean, what are you?

That's why I think we can cross off SU very quickly because it's already developed.

Well, we did discuss, I mean, we did, we have, we have discussed that not to disclose and, and it's, and it's potential. So that's something that Nate, I think that's something that can be discussed, but I would, I would recommend that we address the issue head on because of concerns that I've been relating to particular impacts that data centers create.

Right. There's a couple other areas that SU is in.

They're very small though. Very tiny little guys though. I think it's a township building site maybe and something else or no.

No, it's just a house. It's just a house. Okay. It's a house. And then it's just another house.

Yeah. I don't know the history of that per se, but yeah, just two little areas. So again, they're more or less developed.

Yeah. There's one, two, three, four, five houses. Is size a concern guy?

You mean size of the properties zone for that?

Yeah. In totality.

Well, let me make sure I understand. You mean an assemblage of properties or the gross total acres of properties that might be separated?

So looking at the one that's the development, if that's all zoned as SU. Somebody could go in and buy out all those homeowners and develop an SU. And it doesn't even need to be necessarily a data center, but anything for SU. Do the courts see that as that the township is playing a little underhanded?

No, I don't think so, because a lot of times, there are a lot of instances, and I've seen it from both sides of the table, and I've seen it most commonly with the larger developers will go in and try to assemble if for no other reason to get road access or things of that nature, that's not frowned upon. That is a legitimate commercial transaction. So to provide for that in your zoning ordinance would not be something that would immediately be considered a bad faith decision. Okay.

Okay.

I mean, so looking at that right there, it's kind of isolated from residential with the exception of Forest Gump. The land on the top and the bottom, less densely occupied. I think it's worth a conversation whether or not we move towards SU or LI.

You're saying a conversation either or? Either or. Well. When you were talking about you wanting to address all sizes of data centers, I remember in the county, they talk about some data centers associated being very similar to a solar panel being accessory to a primary use. and a data center being an accessory to a different primary use. And that we, I asked Guy and Nate to pay attention that we, if we open ourselves up to other districts, because as technology changes, the data center can be small enough that it's accessory to a different primary use that's allowed in a different district. village or commercial.

We can certainly look at that. Sure.

I think we have to look tell me if I'm interpreted this wrong. I think we have to look at all our zones to make sure that there's not an unintended zone that somebody come in. People don't come in and look for where we want it, they come in and look for where they want it. So therefore, if they could find the verbiage for putting it where they want to put it, they will put it there. And we can't say, well, no, we didn't intend that.

Right. That's a good point.

Is that what you were alluding to?

Yeah, that's a good point.

Is that what you were alluding to, Dave?

Yeah, I mean, just that our wording didn't preclude somebody adding a data center to their primary use. A large commercial business that requires the use of what a data center does.

Yeah, addressing it both as a primary and accessory use is what you're saying. Right.

Okay. Understood. And I'm not pushing for SU. I'm just saying, I'm just questioning.

That's what we want to do. Any other thoughts or feedback for Guy before he starts putting pen to paper and collating everything a little bit? I think once we have something for you guys to look at, I think it's going to be a lot more actionable for questions and specific debate about do we want this much, that much, this setback, that setback, minimum, maximum, those things. Once we have that kind of set up, I think we'll be able to have a little bit more robust decision based on that.

You talked about this. Sound, my information is sound is the Kind of a surprise. Everybody knows about the power and the water, but sound is a big, from what I saw, sound is a big deal.

It's absolutely the case, Chuck. I think that's probably almost the number one complaint in a weird way because that's what the impact is. I would say the construction is obviously an impact, but that could be short-lived. It's the noise and vibration after the fact. Again, a lot of the existing data centers out in the world It becomes, and this is going to be just, again, a little outside my expertise, but you're getting this noise, hum, vibration that's constant because all these data centers that keep the temperatures down are running generators and the electrical equipment. So there's just all these different factors of electromagnetic pulses and noise and vibrations and this whole spectrum of weird things. that you're like, oh, it's just a warehouse over there until you're kind of like, wait a minute, why is this whole thing humming? Or, you know, it's just, that's what's out. And I was moderately skeptical at the start of all this when I started getting educated and I've gone the complete other direction. Like there's something to it that is a little bit odd. And that's really why you want those landscaping setbacks, residential buffer setbacks, but you also want something that's enforceable from a noise and vibration standpoint. And what happens is I'm sure guys seen over the years is, Almost every municipal ordinance we see, the noise standards are completely outdated and very limited to specific situations. And oddly enough, as we're making these data center updates and inserting new noise stuff, we tend to end up actually also updating the municipalities' noise and vibration ordinances to new standards as well because we realized how out of touch those are. So it's definitely a little bit of a niche industry. And like I said, I had to get my... Ph.D.'s on the call with Kristen Camp the other day guy to like walk through everything and figure it all out for Westchester Borough because it's definitely gets into the weeds a little bit. But I think we've we've we've got something better than a lot of samples we've seen out there, which which I wish I think I'm happy with. So we'll copy and paste that for everybody.

Yeah, I have heard the description of data centers. Someone would say to me, do you know those big green boxes that are on every four or five lots? Have you ever gone up to them? I call them a transformer box. There's probably a better way to describe it, but that's basically what it is. That is a huge complaint. And if we have... if we have a decibel level in franklin and that hum can be measured on a meter great but i don't know that it's that simple because you could stand on the property line and it's not the sound it's not the how loud the sound is it's it's almost like a presence

um i've never experienced it because i've never been that close to a data center but i've been close to the transformers in my front yard so i i sort of get i sort of get it yeah vibrations and sound waves again it's a whole specialty type thing i was involved in a lot of legal lawsuits and testimony with the sunoco pipeline when they were doing that same thing a lot of noise issues and again what we found out with a lot of municipalities was their noise regulations weren't great, right? And when you've got this like vibration effect and this low humming sound from these generators, our noise ordinances really did not capably address those concerns, right? It's one thing when you got a construction site and someone's banging a hammer loud, right? It's another thing when you have all these other variable things compounding on these low frequency issues, it gets a little bit nuanced.

Yep. Can we impose specific noise restrictions without having those noise restrictions equally imposed on the rest of the township?

What we've been doing is having data center specific requirements.

I'm going to say, I'm going to answer it this way, Paul. Yes.

Yes. So, okay. But the question I'm really asking is, so if another... property owner happens to somehow manage to violate those restrictions, they're okay. And the data center isn't. That's the way we're looking at it.

By now you're changing the question. Property, same type of property owner or a different? No, no, no.

Any property owner who manages to produce the same noise level. This is why I'm asking. Because once you, I think our noise restrictions are, relatively low, if any. And so once we start imposing an upper noise restriction on a specific zoning area, would we not have to at least accept that upper noise restriction for the entire township?

And that's a that's a different question. But the answer is yes.

Okay.

Yeah, that's what I meant to say.

Let's put it that way. And the other question I have is a little different. Can we do something about regulating backup power sources to prevent excessive pollution? Because diesel pollution is, when these things start to cluster, becomes a very real problem.

Can I add something, Paul?

It's about that.

So, Data centers that were running into electrical problems, so they didn't have enough electricity, what they do is they generate the power on site. There are definitely data centers out there who have taken 737 engines, old ones that no longer can fly around the planet, but can really generate a lot of power. That is how they generate the power for some of these data centers, 737 engines.

Not to mention small nukes. The mock conditional use hearing that I attended, the power generation was going to be accomplished through the use of a small nuclear power plant. I don't know anything about the science, but it cracked up everybody in the room, because who knows?

SMRs require more water than what we have here.

We have to talk about water too in a minute, but I guess ground source water, because I've seen that people in surrounding areas are losing their water, and there's nothing but wells around here that I know of. But I know China guy is making small modular reactors that are on semi-trucks, and they can drive them around.

Really?

Yep, they're already making them. So that's coming soon. And at first when I read that, it was hard to believe, but you think about we've had nuclear submarines floating around for many, many years, and they're small and capsulated too.

And who knows, 25 years from now, what technology they're going to have. And again, I'm not a skull and crossbones guy. I sort of plan for what I can see. But when I heard that testimony, we were all lawyers, we started to chuckle. I was not aware that they have them on flatbeds. That's new to me.

Speaking as a former submarine sailor, pressurized water reactors are what you're talking about. They're an entirely different beast than an SMR or a traditional SMR. uh, reactor. Uh, but yeah, the, they've, they're moving towards, uh, a liquid salt cooling, uh, solution, which reduces, but doesn't eliminate the, the water requirement. Um, that's, I mean, I actually follow this stuff and I know that the NRC has not yet approved of, um, that liquid salt design yet, but it's coming.

To your point, Zach, once the technology gets to that point, you know, the water draw from a stream or public water supply or whatever starts going down or disappearing altogether, it starts changing the equation, Chuck, of the locations, right? Those locations become much more flexible in that those needs aren't required. So it's going to be really interesting to see where it goes.

So all this detailed discussion gets back to giving Nate and Guy the direction that each section is very important to us.

We're not going to skimp on any section, it sounds like, right? I don't think we were going to, right? And that's why I said I think there's going to be a nice space here that'll draw out some good questions and feedback once we get something over to you guys.

Any more global discussion to get Nate and Guy started?

I know I had mentioned this before, just to let you know, because the person who gives the planning commission update will hear this from one of the board members. So one of the board members supplied the Chad's Ford ordinance. I'm not saying it's the best, but it was important to her that you guys see that and consider it. So for what it's worth, I'm just mentioning that.

Yeah.

You give it some consideration when you're going through it. Yeah. We'll take a look. My coworker was somewhat involved in that. So I'll bounce it off him a little bit. Um, my initial reaction is there's a lot in that ordinance. Um, It might be over overcooked a little bit, but let me let me dig in a little bit. I'll make sure I think you have it as part of this pack.

Yeah, I have it. And that was Chad's for Delaware County, wasn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Was there any do you see need? I don't frequent Delaware County as as much as perhaps you do. But are you seeing different techniques or different considerations being raised there?

You know, I would actually put Chad's Ford in a very similar bucket to Franklin with the exception that maybe, you know, they've got the Brainy Wine Peak running right through it. So maybe a little bit larger river per se. They've also got Baltimore Pike, U.S. Route 1, you know, four lane highway running right through it. So again, maybe a little bit of a. transportation energy, you know, aspect there. And then I can't speak directly, but I know they've got several high tension lines running North South because of the brand along the Brandywine as well. So, um, you know, I think that was part of it, but they, you know, they might've been one of the first, right. Not necessarily, I don't want to speak, right. But sometimes the first isn't always the best, right. It might've just been one of the first ones out there. Um, but I think there's some stuff in there when you want to look at, but it's in the packet and I'll get some feedback from my coworker too, if he's got any pros or cons out of it for you guys.

I mean, I think a lot of what we can do, and I say this, it's going to require a little bit of coalescing, but I think a lot of good thought by folks not on this call have been put into these ordinances and simply looking at them and giving them some thought, you can cobble together a pretty good working draft for your community, I think.

Do we have to worry about our gas lines being used as power?

Do we have to worry about our gas? You're saying gas in natural gas sense? Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's fair. Yeah. If you've got natural gas transmission lines running through the township, again, another potential power source, both for regular power backup generators, all those options, I would think.

So we have both high-tension electric and gas coming through the township.

Good to know.

Gas can run those jet engines too.

Exactly.

Anything else, everybody?

I think this was a good start. I think I have the direction. I think I know what direction you'd like me to take, and I'll work with Nate on getting something together.

We appreciate it.

Thank you. When is your next meeting?

I guess we might need to discuss that, right, Jeff? The second is the first Thursday? Okay.

July 2nd?

Yes, it is.

Okay. Do we do July the 2nd or the 9th for July? Just because of the holiday. Anybody? I don't think we want to do July 2nd.

Yeah.

So do we want to do July 9th?

9th. I'd be in favor of the 9th. I'd be in favor of the 9th too. Sounds good.

When do you guys usually get your packets?

Guy, I would need your stuff no later than June 30th. Because I'm asking for it a little early because staff's going to have a couple days off.

No, that's fine. No, I appreciate that. I just want to diary it and work towards that date. That's completely doable.

So I'm going to advertise that date for July 9th at 7 o'clock. Everyone agrees.

Yes. That's not a Wednesday, is it?

It's a Thursday.

Okay. That's fine.

All right. It sounds like everyone agrees. So the next important question, who's going to give the planning commission update at the next board meeting?

Which is when?

Would be June 17th.

My calendar.

I can always do it. I don't know. We'll be there anyway.

I was going to say, we've got Paul Lagasse. We have John Gontars if he wants to do it or, or Zach or Chuck, just, just pick one.

Yeah. You know what? I'll, I'll, since I messed up the last one, I'll take this one.

Thank you, Zach.

Thank you.

Welcome. Zach, if something happens, I have two reasons to be there that night, so I'm an easy fallback.

Nope, nothing else on my calendar for that day.

Oh, Rachel Griffith just came on from the county. Do you want to talk with her for a couple minutes?

Sure. I think that would be useful. I think that would be useful.

All right. She's very apologetic, so I'm going to let her in now. Again, her name is... Rachel Griffiths when she pops up.

Rachel's a rock star, so I would be happy to accept her apology on behalf of you guys. She's great. I just want to give you guys, I got like 15 minutes. I might have to duck out, but I want to listen to Rachel as well, even though I've listened to her do this a few times. But I've got a little bit of a hard-on at 8.15, so I'm going to stay as late as I can.

Okay. Is Rachel? Oh, there she is.

I'm so sorry. I had a family emergency come up, and of course my phone ran out of batteries, but I'm here now.

Rachel, thank you for joining us. Jeff, did you want to summarize where we've been?

Well, I was going to let you summarize, but then ask Rachel to introduce herself and her position at Chester County Planning.

Rachel, we've over the last hour talked with Guy Donatelli, our solicitor, and Nate Klein. Obviously, you know Nate as our engineer. And we shared our global concerns with data centers and came that – over the next three weeks Guy and Nate will work to give us a draft based upon obviously the county's guide and as well as some other ordinances that have already been written by other municipalities. So we're more than happy that you were able to join us. Hopefully everything's okay with the family. And if you're able to give us your comments for us all to over the next four weeks, that would be great. Sure.

Yeah. And apologies again. And I'm sorry to have missed the discussion. I've heard a lot of data center discussion over the past couple months. So I suspect I know what some of your concerns are. Um, so I, my position is that I'm the sustainability director in the planning commission and energy planning has fallen into my purview. It wasn't something that the planning commission did a whole lot of prior to a couple of years ago. Um, but with the county's adoption of a climate action plan, which has a lot to do with energy planning and energy transition. That has sort of fallen into my purview. And so with the advent of data centers coming to our region, because energy is such a prominent issue surrounding data centers, they fell into my division's work program. As you guys know, a lot of municipalities are grappling with what to do about data centers. There's a bunch of legislation at the state level that doing proposing to do all sorts of things to regulate data centers or to facilitate their development through sped up permitting processes and things like that. It's not clear to me whether any of it is going to pass just because of how gridlocked things are in Harrisburg. And so that's why it's so important for municipalities to be prepared because the state may not do anything. It may do a little, but you guys have the ultimate authority over what happens from a land use perspective. So, That's why I think it's important to regulate data centers. Even if it might not be super likely that one is proposed in Franklin Township, it's still better to be prepared than not. So as you guys know, you're probably all, have you all read through our ordinance guide? I don't know if it makes sense for me to go through some of the things in there.

I know everybody shared different viewpoints that tell me they have, that we have to go through.

Okay. So I guess I'll hit some of the high points of things that I think are important to regulate and to be thinking about. So have you guys done an analysis to kind of determine like what zoning district they would go in and if you even have any sites that would be appropriate?

Yes, we probably spend 10, 15 minutes tonight even adjusting that. Okay.

So assuming you've got one or more spots where it might be feasible, I guess I'm just scrolling through the guide and the first thing I'm getting to is setbacks, which is the thing that there's probably the most contention about, I'd say. So I'll tell you sort of the span of what I've heard. So some municipalities, just totally based on their context, have an industrial district. It's not really near anything else. And they feel like it's not that important to have really big setbacks from property lines and from other sensitive uses because there's really not that much around. And so I've seen setbacks of 150, 200, 250 feet from property lines. On the other end of the spectrum, there's a group called Food and Water Watch that is feels that there's a science-based reason to have 2,500 foot setbacks. At the Planning Commission, we didn't feel like that was reasonable for our area and potentially not legally defensible. So what's in our ordinance guide is 1,000 foot setbacks with the option to reduce those setbacks if there are performance metrics in place that the developer can meet. And that's a setback from a sensitive use, like a residential district, a residential lot, a school, things like that. And then otherwise setbacks in our guide are 250 feet, so from the property line. So it's totally a context sensitive thing, the setbacks. But we do feel like just because of the the information that's out there about data centers, the context in terms of how strongly people feel about them, we do think that a much larger setback than what's typical would be appropriate if they're not producing, if they're not doing things to mitigate sound and vibration or emissions or things like that. Another huge thing is the energy usage. And so if there's not access to a high voltage power line that has extra capacity, which in our region, there's no extra capacity anywhere, it seems, it's likely that they could bring their own generation source. And what that's been looking like is natural gas combined cycle turbines. And so that's like a a separate use that we are advising municipalities to develop regulations for separately and have as a separate principal use on the site. Because like, if you think about the impacts that you're requiring, potentially requiring data centers to provide information about through different kinds of reports, You would want any kind of on-site power generation to be included in those reports, like making sure that any sound was considering an on-site power plant in addition to the data center, but also that the that there were specific regulations around the use of that power plant facility and its own setbacks, its own dimensional requirements to the extent that that can be known even. So unfortunately, our guide does not cover that. And I don't know of... any really good examples to point to. That's sort of like the next frontier. Nate, have you seen any municipal regulations on power generation facilities?

Only in that like agricultural world that we've been dealing with a little bit, Rachel, you know, in some of the other Chester County regions, but I don't know that I have on that specific aspect, but I can poke around and ask around as well. Okay. Okay.

Yeah, I think municipalities aren't used to regulating them because they're typically a public utility and it's not like a private power generation facility. So if it were public, it would be exempt from zoning requirements. So I think that's an important thing to think about as you're thinking about your ordinance. Yeah. Let's see, what else? I think that the generators can be perhaps one of the most impactful things on the site from the standpoint of air quality and also sound. So we have been seeing some ordinances, not necessarily in this area, but in other areas that require a certain percentage, if not all of the generators, be batteries instead of generators, which is... doesn't have any emissions issues, is very quiet, is better for the environment from a carbon emission standpoint. It's probably more expensive, but the municipalities have such leverage when data centers are being approved because they care most about speed. They care about the approval time and just getting to yes. And so... It would be easier to get a data center to say yes to something like no generators, but batteries. Whereas if you were asking a housing developer to do granite curb instead of concrete curb or something that might cost a lot of extra money, they might fight you on it. But there will probably be a lot of latitude to ask for things. because of the importance of just getting a quick approval. And this is how things are right now. They may be different even a year from now, but this is just sort of the mad dash environment we're in right now. Water usage, so, We think it would be much, much, much, much, much better to have a data center connect to public water. I think when we're going to be updating our guide in the next couple of months, and I think we're going to make that change in our guide, is to require the data centers to use public water. There's just so many unknowns and challenges. and things that could go wrong for residents when they're drawing from ground or surface water, especially for a water-cooled data center that's just using a tremendous amount of water.

Jeff, are you Chester Water Authority?

Who provides your water? We have Chester Water Authority in the north, and then down just above the Kimbellsville area, there's Aqua PI, but they're in limited areas.

Okay. Can you give me or not give me? When you get a chance, could you let me know where you keep a map of those franchise areas? I want to take a look at that.

If we have it, Guy, I will give it to you.

If you don't, I can get it from both. I mean, if you don't, I can ask Aqua and I can ask CWA.

Why don't we just cut to the chase and let you do it? Okay. Okay.

And then the last thing I wanted to say, I had a question for you since we had a little, we weren't talking for a second. I did a little calculations after you said a thousand feet for a setback. And so that would indicate that it's a, like a 200 acre lot minimum. So is that a negotiating thing? Or can we, will we get in trouble if, I don't know, was the PICO property even 200? That was the biggest one we looked at. Did anybody notice? You're saying 200 acres? It was 70-ish.

No, it was 70-something.

Yeah, 70-ish. So my concern would be that if we say 1,000 from, everything around it would have been residential. So it would have applied to all four sides that we then made a requirement that was impossible on the zone and therefore nullifying the zone and then they could go anywhere.

Yeah, I mean, that's a very real concern. And I think that Like I said, it's totally site-specific. And Guy, I'm curious to hear what you think about this. The data center thing hasn't been tested in court yet, to my knowledge.

You're right. No, you're right.

And the setbacks for it. So say there were a court decision that upheld large setbacks for data centers. And a municipality just didn't have a site that had those requirements, that had that dimensional standard available. Do you think that, like, what would happen if you picked this PICO site that you think would work? It's only 70 acres. You said a thousand foot setback because there's residential uses on all sides, right? Like, do you think that that would be defensible or would it be better just to say we're not doing data centers because we don't have a spot?

So just addressing this initially in public without having taken a deep dive, I would incorporate the same concepts as I would with any piece of property. I would perhaps draft language that might permit through special exception or conditional use or variance. uh a a standard for the reduction of the setback if certain conditions were met uh number one no number two uh just thinking of the what is it the hertzberg case where they said that um you know if you if you really can't use that property because of its Now, that was a case where they were re-energizing an old industrial site, but there are concepts that reduce the variance requirements for property that has special characteristics. Let's say the property is in a valley where it could be screened better or where you could engineer certain sound or vibration reduction technology, I would sort of I would sort of leave an avenue or at least consider leaving an avenue for that. If you know, if you mentioned I think you suggested almost, what did you say? In my mind, I'm like, my God, that's a mile. One of the setbacks was almost a mile. If that was something that the court said, yeah, because of these things, you can do a mile, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I would say, well, any data center requires a mile setback. There is no zoning district In our township that could that could accommodate that, but I said, answering your question just kind of. Without all of the emotion I was, I would handle that. Like, I would handle any other bulk and area restriction. You could you could have a relaxed. Relaxed standard on that if certain conditions were met.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And so this. Based on what your potential site is, it seems like a. a good case for having some really strong performance standards to reduce that setback.

If I could just jump in, Chuck, to speak partly to what you were raising about the setback and the parcel. I was looking at a map of Franklin parcels by size and just looking at single parcels, not something that might be put together by somebody. I don't know that we have a single parcel that might be able to accommodate a thousand foot setback. Except for preserved parcels.

Yeah, Paul, that's kind of like what I was getting at earlier, right? With like Westchester Borough, right? Like, you know, we had a draft of data center ordinance for Westchester Borough. And you can imagine the size of the properties and the setbacks. So again, those are great recommendations. And I'm not going to get into the whole political thing and the arguments we've had with state reps and etc. But like, again, you have to be real and you have to deal with the circumstances you have in front of you to a point as well. So it's something that's legal, enforceable, defensible, all those variables, right?

So one more thing I wanted to bring up was the idea of transparency. So we have heard and experienced that a lot of the data centers Like the amount of power they use, the amount of water they use, how they're constructing their facility, they feel is like a trade secret and they don't want to disclose it. However, if you have requirements in your code, that's a requirement of approval to disclose these things. then they'll have to. There's lots of non-disclosure agreements floating around out there. So to the extent that you can reduce, require no non-disclosure agreements, As a condition of approval, I think just because these are getting so contentious and people will, it'll create terrible relationships between the residents and the township, feeling like the township is in cahoots with the data center developer. We've seen it happen, and it's not pretty. So, yeah. having things in the ordinance that make it clear that you're going to require the information to be um publicly disclosed i think is important anybody have any questions for rachel thanks those are some good points that we didn't talk about earlier so

Can I summarize them, Rachel? The big five, consider the zoning district, consider the setback, consider power generation, consider water usage, and consider the proprietary nature of the information that might be required for the application. Are those the big five?

I think so. I mean, the noise is another big one. I'm sure you guys already talked about that. We did. But like full disclosure, I think there's other ordinances out there that are more technical than what's in our guide. We didn't hire a sound expert. So we wrote the language that we were comfortable in. with understanding ourselves. But I do know that some municipalities are including more technical information for sound requirements, but that's a really important one to consider as well.

Excellent. Yeah. I thought we had a good meeting. We had a better meeting with Rachel joining us. Yes, thank you, Rachel.

I'm so sorry it was late. Thanks for having me. I can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

Rachel, we were all late.

We were all late. The meeting started late, but if Rachel was here, she could have done all of our work for us, Guy.

I don't know. She would have had it done in 10 minutes.

Exactly.

We were going on and on.

I don't know about that.

Any other discussion before I ask for a motion to adjourn?

Rachel, at some point, we may ask you to come back at some point. So just want to put that out there. Sure. I'm good. You did a great job, Dr. Hoffman.

Even being late, I'm going to do my best for July to I have my own screen. I got to fix my microphone. All right. Thank you, Mark. I'll take your motion. We'll adjourn at 8.21.

Good night, everyone.