Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

committ regular meeting for Wednesday, March 18th at uh 7:01. Um can I get a roll call starting from the left with Sarah? Uh Sarah Greslick present. Pete Hock here. Stuart Wooders present. Paul Bragman present. So we have four members of the commission here which is enough for quorum. Um and so we can continue with this meeting. Um adoption of the agenda. Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. Um I just wanted to the agenda has a wrong date on your next meeting. So I wanted to correct that. Yes.

We are not meeting in the past in our next meeting. Um uh so yes. So what's the date that we um April 15th? Okay. April 15th, 2026 will be our next uh meeting. Um so we'll we'll update the agenda with that. Any other um changes reg or ch modifications to the agenda? The current agenda or the the current agenda? Uh I have none. No. Okay. All right. Um then can I get a motion to adopt the agenda for tonight with the modification of the upcoming meeting date being to the change to the correct date? So moved. Second.

All in favor? I any opposed? Okay, great. Um so we'll move now to um the minutes from the previous meeting. Um any concerns or uh questions with regards to the minutes from last meeting? Yes. Note of order. Uh my father was not here during roll call. Keep doing that. Um I was here. Should be Paul. Not should be Paul now. Randy makes sense. Okay, Mr. Chair, I am not the building clerk either. Yeah. So, um, thank you very much.

For the record, what do you want to say what your exact title is? Just building official. Thank you. Building official. That way we can get that updated in the minutes. Um, all right. Great. Um, anything else um that needs to be changed from last uh meeting minutes? No, no, because every motion I made is use my last name. So, it makes it easy for that one adjustment. Perfect. Okay. All right. So, then can we get a motion to adopt the minutes with the uh modification for the titled um and name um so build as title and then motion to adopt the minutes with said changes. Okay. Second.

All in favor? I any opposed? Okay, great. All right, so now we'll move on to um plan commission official report. Um Trusty Sal, would you mind doing your council leazison uh report for us, please?

Yeah, thank you. Uh at the last meeting I updated everyone just around the priorities and the conversation that was had around the nuisance nuisance abatement conversation and particularly highlighted the fact that uh again appreciation for honoring kind of our reorganization of priorities but also highlighted to them again that when we talk about things like uh nuisance or other sorry not nuisance but litter and other things uh similar to that within um somebody's yard, it can sometimes be hard to create a standard that's not subjective um and to really create that objective threshold. So again, I kind of told everybody that you all would look at kind of the best practices of other communities as examples, but ultimately um we should expect that that could be a hangup for you all and should contemplate and think about ahead of time how we want to be responsive to help provide you all direction.

Like bikes in the yard versus Yes, exactly. cars on blocks. Exactly. Exactly. So, both are toys. Both are toys. One is a power wheel, one is a nonfunctioning real. Exactly. Awesome. Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Um I don't have anything additional to say um um other than thank you Sally for uh giving the report for me um last on that during the meeting. Um, commissioners, any any updates um from your side that you want to bring forward?

Um, I've been working with Main Street. I know that they got their um Genesis Credit Union grant that they're doing a matching grant um that's um out there already right now for business owners to do rent assistant. So, that um is out as well as they are taking new board member applications for Main Street Franklin. So, I know that all went out with Evan. So if anyone is interested that is on I believe the website and in the newsletter but that's all I have. Okay. Is the Genesis credit union what is that? That

so they apply so uh Main Street Franklin applied um with Oakland County Main Street and they want a grant with Genesis Credit Union so that they would be the beneficiary so they could do a matching grant. So what it is is that uh Main Street will match the grant from Genesis um for the application in terms of um rent assistance. So someone could apply, a business owner could apply um to be able to do that within um those that are on Main Street. Um and they will match what Genesis is a new owner of the old.

So this was just a grant that they applied through Oakland County Main Street. their benefactors. What does Genesis credit union have to do with Frank? So, they sponsor this grant from the county. Yeah. Okay. Banks and credit unions with with uh in this country have to do a community reinvestment act and this is part of those are grants that do that. All right, that makes sense. Yeah. Does anybody know what's happening with the bank building? Yeah. Is there something we can share publicly yet? Huh?

Anything we can share publicly yet? Uh sure. It uh the previous potential sale uh did not commence through closing and according to the CBRE real estate person um he's had numerous conversations with many other people. Okay. All right. Good. Good. Thank you. Good to know. So I mean there's still activity toward the end of having it bought and used by someone. Great. Awesome. Thank you.

All right. Oh. Um, one other thing that um I guess Commissioner N the chairperson thing for us is um there we uh we received the village received a grant with regards to some um property u some sidewalk not pathway maintenance um from the federal government. Um we're going to get some more information on how that should be executed and distributed um later, but the planning commission will be um asked to assist um potentially the council on with regards to how we organize and and utilize it. It is a grant that's specifically working with the village administrator. It is a grant specifically for a per purpose. Um but it's um is sufficient that we can maybe augment um other pathways in the village. So, um there's some there's some discussion. We'll learn more as we go along and that will um we'll find out um how how how we'll be involved in future. So,

right. But yeah.

Okay. Zoning. Was there anything from zoning? Because I Linda's not here, but were you involved in all for the zoning? Okay. Nothing happened. All right. Public comments. Um still uh still no public uh comments uh today. Really want public here, unfortunately. Um I I really actually especially we start digging into these abatement discussions, I really want to make sure that people don't feel like they're blindsided. So the more we can get people here for the discussions on our our agenda, that would be great. All right, we'll move on. Uh no old business because um technically um the McKenna the review first um annual report is new and then the recommendation is new, but that will go to old business after today. So, starting with a the annual report provided by McKenna. I don't know if you had a chance. I hopefully you all had a chance to read through it. Um, it is um more than just us, but also the zoning board of appeals is also in there. Um, but I also recommend our public to read it as well um in case they're wondering what we do um and what we have done. Um, but are there any concerns with taking this to council? because I think we do need a motion to take this council and I believe did you want to read uh um the memo um in for the for the

I didn't uh I'll introduce I'm sorry I didn't Yes, please introduce yourself. You didn't do a roll call with you either.

Yeah. So Chris isn't feeling well so he asked me to step in uh to support you guys tonight but uh yeah this planning report is something that's required by state act the Michigan Planning Enabling Act. So, it's something that we do every year. And as you guys will see, we met or you guys met 11 times in 2025. Uh we got the commissioners listed on that right column. We did some zoning code and general code uh amendments. You'll see uh the regulations dealing with open burning, wireless communication facilities, amendments to the zoning regulations of the R3 district, and the nuisance abatement and blight reduction. And it sounds like we're still talking about that item. Uh we had a few reviews. Time and place hospitality Franklin Oyster Bar and Eery. Uh it looks like you guys at the end of 2025 recommended adoption of the master plan. Um don't know if there's more of an update to that at this point or not.

It's still the last paragraph represents where we are with it still. So

Gotcha. Okay. Thanks. And then for the future ideas for 2026 and going forward, uh obviously adopting the plan, it sounds like that will be easy enough. One, future code amendments. We're kind of talking about some of those tonight. Implementation of the master plan, so following those goals and objectives within that master plan you guys just recently or will adopt. And then a capital's improvement plan. Um and as you mentioned at the end, you also have the summary of the ZBA. We had six meetings. And in that table, you'll see specific variances that went to that board at that time. Uh there's any more specific questions, I'll uh try my best to answer that for you. Thank you.

No problem. Thank you. Hunter White Hill is my name if I did not say that. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, too. Thanks for stepping in. Of course. Of course.

Great. All right. Uh are there any comments with regards to master plan? um you guys when you read had a chance to read it through it. Some great pictures by the way um especially of the places where we had site plan reviews. Um and also good job uh summary for the zoning board. I think that um I I like this type of document. I'm I'm glad that Chris has had helping us do this every year now. Um, it's like I think I think this is our third year in a row that we've actually been able to do we've been doing it more appropriately. Um, and I I think it helps the council understand what we do and as well as the public to know what we do. Plus, if you don't like what we're doing, you can read it in nice print and then come tell us about it so we can actually help represent you better. So, um, that that would be great, especially with the nuisance statement. So, I appreciate that. So, uh could we get a motion to um uh um it's not present. It is mo is it a motion? Is it really a motion to actually declare to uh

It's not a motion for adoption. It's a a motion to maybe forward to council. Maybe that'd be the best way to Thanks, honey. So, can I get a motion to um to present this council as a um I will make a motion to present the annual report to village council. I'll second. All in favor?

You opposed? No. Okay. All right. Thank you very much. 100. All right. So the next um memo or topic is with regards to um the feedback and the homework that McKenna um took on with regards to um the News and Baitment direction that we gave them last month. So um if you go to um I believe page 17 of our packet um Chris wrote us a memo um based on the conversations we had. Um, Hunter, if you want to give the summary or I can do it either way or if you want to read through it, that's fine, too. We That's kind of normally how we do it. This presents it as a memo.

So, it looks like it looks like you guys kind of split up into groups. If I I took a read at this earlier today, it sounds like you guys kind of split it up and focus on tackling it uh to that effect. And then the really the three sections that are being amended is chapter 678, chapter 648, and then lastly chapter 1268. Um, and you know, we're kind of tackling a host of issues and some of them are related to each other. And when I took a look in your guys's code of ordinance, I spent a little bit of time and it looks like in some areas Chris beefed these up and in other areas we may have retained quite a bit but just added in language where it was necessary. Um, and I I guess it you know I have these three drafts in front of me. If we have anything that still hasn't been resolved, I can make edits to get to Chris. So you guys at your next meeting will have a cleaned up polished version. But to my understanding, you guys kind of gave him some guidance and hopefully these resolve some of those issues last month.

And we'll review the we'll review the um the updates that he gave um right now so that way you have a chance to make any um Thank you. I mean changes we can do that under direction. We can do that. Okay. Um so for chapter 678 for safety, sanitation and health um um he talked about um adding to the uh um sorry we gave us uh talking about different definition different definitions he's pretty much do you know the differences actually already of because he didn't do a line red line cross You know what that is?

Um, yeah. I'm looking for the red lining. Word for word. Now, what I will say is the code of ordinances I'm seeing online actually looks like that 678.01 was repealed. So, it actually based on what I'm looking at, is it potential that this is replacing that repealed section? Does that sound familiar? Actually, doesn't. Yeah. No, because we we had some stuff that we did take out, re-edited here. Yeah, but that's 648.1 678 though is a different one.

What What was 678? It was storage of building materials and residential areas. So, it's under sanitation, safety, sanitation, and health. Well, at 678 in our code that I'm looking at on am legal actually it said open burning. Um I'm wondering if that because it sounds like you guys admitted that um based on the annual planning report. I'm wondering if that got moved to a different section and then this new section 678 storage of building materials is to replace this chapter. Um Oh, I see. Yeah. Is that a maybe I'm speaking out of turn here. Well, you guys have more familiarity with it than I do.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong. 678 we it may have been mentioned, but we didn't have paperwork on that. So, that's a new section then for us. Yeah, that new section. That has to be the new section for us. Um, okay. Yeah, there because 6481's here. So, I have the changes here from there.

Yeah. So then for 678 the ordinance then is is is simplified is simplified in that the definition um building m is is basically defining what building materials are. So they shall include but not limited to lumber bricks blocks concrete cement and mortar plumbing materials electrical wiring equipment heating ducts and equipment um roof shingles fasteners and fencing material. So standard materials used for building um as as except except as a note in section C below. Building materials shall not be kept or stored outdoors in a residential zone or used district. And then order the orderly outdoor storage of building materials shall be permitted on residential premises where there is in effect a valid building permit for construction and the building materials are intended for such construction. Now we had talked about that briefly last time because not everything needs a permit for building, right? So we should mod I believe we should modify that in that regard because um because not not every construction um requires it. Like if if for example you're putting down a brick pavers, do you need a building permit for brick pavers?

No. No. But you have bricks that you're storing until you can lay down the brick pavers um or um painting stuff like or paint. Yeah. Like so how do we want to handle or how do we want to make recommendations with regards to situations where I mean if you're building a garden box it's the same thing, right? We don't need you're going to you can you can have Menards dump the lumber in your in your driveway and then you know build the box at home. may be difficult to draw a line in the sand, so to speak, and say you can have these materials because they're not part of a permit, but you can't have these if you don't have a permit. It might be hard to with a whole new can of worms.

Right.

Right. It is. It totally is. So, is I'm assuming the intention behind this was there's been some storage of material. Yes. That's okay. So the question though is is it possible to I mean I think we had talked briefly last last month though that about having some sort of um notification to the village saying hey um I'm going to have these the building of material on on on a property for an extended period of time for XYZ project. Not necessarily a permit but letting the village know to get out ahead of or at least if the compliance officer reaches out to us reach out to them they have a recourse without having to have a permit. I I don't know, Bill, how what would you recommend would be the best way to manage that without having to pull a permit because that's that's causes adds cost to a project. It also adds unnecessary documentation for something that doesn't necessarily need it.

That's a very difficult situation to try to get a handle on. Mhm. Um I don't think that issuing a permit for such activity makes real sense, but I think that allowing certain construction items to be there for a period of time, short period, whatever it is,

um makes perfect sense when there's activities that are allowed to take place and or are not regulated. You mentioned both of them. You can have a raised garden, but it takes treated materials usually or some type of construction materials to do a raise.

Yeah. How about something like um if you were to just say or an ongoing project for um a reasonable amount of time, which leaves it fully discretionary. um to the to yourself and and the code enforcement. Um does that sound like something that might work just so that we don't prohibit, you know, building materials for someone who's doing something that doesn't require a permit? Partly the problem with that is Pete and I understand where you're going with that and does make perfect sense. The problem is

if it goes past that time and we start enforced in activities. Now you've drawing the question what's reasonable to you time frame may not be reasonable to me. So that's what I'm I'm actually offering that thing we're having a hard time pushing it's true. It's true.

I think allowing certain building materials I think it would make sense to put some kind of a time frame within the framework. notify the building department. You now have 45 days or 60 days or 30 days to put together your project or allow for an extension for reasonable cost.

That's fair. Uh just adding in I was just trying to brainstorming under section C the orderly store outdoor storage of building materials of projects that shall last more than a week shall be permitted on residential premises where they're in the effect for the valid building permit of construction. So like it took me three days to do my brick paper patio you know but it was a lot of bricks there but it was only there for three days. So I think putting wording where we have a time limit of a week I think depends on the project. It does depend on the project too much though. We got a project going on for a year.

Yeah. But that's a large scale project that requires a permit. What's reasonable? I completely agree. So sorry. Yeah, please. Oh your laptop. It's not like a wallet.

Yeah, fine. Um, hate that laptop. Um, what I was going to say is that, uh, for things like the project on 13 Mile, uh, I think we should just tie it to the permit, right? Like it's re we don't even have to put reasonable. We can just tie it so long as the essentially it's good as long as the permit is. Um for smaller projects though I would go with like rather than saying a project that lasts more than x amount of days I would just start with a threshold of it is good for this period of time subject to and then you can ask for discretion at you can ask for extensions at the discretion of the administration and what that does is it kind of forces project timelines as well as creating that necessary objective threshold. Well, the also the starting point of it as well though that there may be an issue is again it comes down to code enforcement and complaints because we don't know when somebody's starting a project that's small. We can have stuff storage there. So it's definitely important for residents to keep receipts of the delivery of the storage material. So we can say okay where's your receipt for the delivery then okay it's it's been here for I can see two weeks right

so you have to talk to code enforcement now. So, let me ask this question though because I mean is it a problem if it's in your backyard the backyard and no one can see it, right? It's kind of up to your neighbor,

right? Because this is a report based this is a report based thing. I mean I I I mean I'd be more offended I'm not offended but I guess I'd be more frustrated if um if it was in someone's front yard or the or the side side front sideyard um because then it's you know more visible. If if how Let me put it this way. Um it is not uncommon for um people that build a patio to have spare tiles that sit either in their shed or by a shed um in the case that a tile cracks and they need to replace the brick tile the tile and and and and so we're if they store it in their backyard and no one sees it then I mean are we enforcing that and if that's the case then how are we how are we going to equally distribute I mean enforce this this this this ordinance

our ordinance enforcement activity as much as you have ordinances and and it wouldn't necessarily be but a lot of it is complaint driven is other words we don't run around looking for every little thing to out of sight out of mind I mean if it's blatant it's clearly visible Um, but a lot of it's complaint driven and we just don't go around backyard looking for extra bricks. I mean, that's not what we do. Well, first off, we can't, right?

We cannot end around private property that's trespassing even if there is a violation. But be that as it may, um, I think it can also be addressed with similar to what the building code does. The building code says if you have inactivity for a period of time, your permit's not good anymore. So I think addressing this type of situation with a simpler approach, in other words, you can have it as long as you continue to work on it, but when you stop doing it for any period of time, it's it's over. Get rid of it. So,

I have a question about um I guess first of all, do you think, Bill, that it's practical or is there a way to make it easy for a homeowner to let the village know that they're they're um building a raised bed garden? Because if we can't have that part where there is if we don't have a way to really take keep track of that, um then a lot of what we're talking about won't follow. So, do you I guess I know we've talked about this type of thing in the past where you know it's easy with the fire department. They just call up and say, "Can we I'm going to be burning leaves." Actually, go to the website. It's even easier.

You go to the website. Yeah. And and it's a pretty easy form to fill out. But in this case, what is your opinion? I could see something like an email that goes into some mailbox somewhere, you know, but then we would have to have to build that into the ordinance. Um, I don't see that that would be a difficult thing to do to register what your that you'll have this stuff and get a an approval for a period of time. Mhm. Um, I think that period of time needs to be flexible. I I know I can't work at the speed I did 30 years ago. It just doesn't work that way for me anymore. Yep.

Um, some people have different abilities. you may be able to get something done in three or four days and somebody else,

it's definitely a hard one needing help from neighbors and whatever and it may take them longer. So, I don't I don't know that there's a cut and dry answer for this, but I think there could be a way to uh put some type of parameter to it where it doesn't go on forever. We'd have to add some language about what what I mean, if we were to make it easy for a homeowner. I would propose that we could add some language that would have an email address or at least say notify the village um in a documented manner that uh specifies the that you will be storing building materials um for a um period of time. um probably something like not to exceed 30 days and if you need to extend it then you need to apply for that. So I mean it seems like that way your neighbors not going to be complaining and there is an objective way to u enforce it. So, it would be nice to know what neighborhoods around us do with regards to that kind of enforcement, if it's even I mean, I know that some of our neighbors do have nuisance um abatement um laws, but it would be nice to know what is kind of standard um in our area of Michigan. Um so, that maybe that's something research we can have um McKenna do for us is just to look to see because

let's put it this I'm going to put it I'm just going to blunt blunt. There's certain people that are rule followers and they look for the rules to follow where they actively look for the rules and you know a lot of times they're first children personalities um that do that and and and there are people that are like you know I'll just you know I I'll ask forgiveness um rather than permission and that's and that's how it's going to be right. So, regardless of what we put in here, um, no one's going to read the ordinance necessarily ahead of time and and they'll only look to the ordinance if they feel like it's it's either not it's not helping them in some way. So, so it'd be nice to know kind of what's standard from other

I mean, it's almost I mean, you're suggesting because you can you can you could we could do it add infed item, right? Everything everything. So if you just don't put any language in there regarding this, right? And it would be curious to see I agree if we if what other communities might do.

I agree with you. I think in Chris's memo he gave us this thing about the rubbish and garbage and I think that this like even construction material if it's not like a permitted thing it would be considered rubbish. So like he gives the accumulation of 14 days. So that way that's two trash days, right? So if we build in that beyond that, I think then maybe it can be like a hey, if this is an ongoing project, then maybe let someone know because if then we can tie it into what's already in there, then it becomes easier for us, I think, to be able to do that. Work work smarter, not harder. No, like as long you're saying you're saying keep them similar to each other. So that way the the wording so it's under

the wording overlaps. Well, yeah, because the construction material would become rubbish after 14 days anyway. So then instead if you're not using it, it would. So then beyond that, if it is meant for a project, just let someone know kind of thing through that kind of thing what Pete was saying. I think that way it sort of hits both ends where it becomes hey you have two weeks figure out your plan understand the weather XYZ but beyond that figure you know like have a plan so your neighbors can know

okay so the direction seems twofold is first let's in my mind is is find out what our communities ne neighbors are doing for that already and then twofold if we can steer both of the two ordinances to be similar in um execution time then it reduces the burden on someone to know like they can assume they can have a better assumption that the that both the time timeouts are going to be similar. Yeah. Okay. Makes sense to me. All right. Do we want to talk 64 678 anymore? I think we kind of we good to move to the next one. Sure.

Okay. So 648 the litter rubbish and garbage removal. So mostly this is kind of summing summarizing changing wording from last meeting. Yeah, it was a clean up and looking at this it exact word for word is cleaned up in 6.01 or 48.01. Yeah, most of the definitions were cleaned up. And then yeah, it's every everything's matching from what we took out last time. Mhm. So, we've already discussed there was something about a private garbage can on public property. I think that was removed entirely. It was correct.

Yeah. And then that was 648.06, right? Yeah. 648 the entirety of it from last meeting is covered and updated to reflect what changes we've already discussed. So, that looks Good. Now, yeah,

I do have to say it because I watched the council meeting where David was talking about like the trash and like the leaves and stuff and all I could think about when the weather was really bad is all of our neighbors garbage flew everywhere during that time. And I'm like, and I'm like, every time I'm on a dog walk, I'm like bringing a garbage can and cleaning it all up cuz there's just garbage everywhere. And like it's whose responsibility? And I feel like everyone's just playing the waiting game now of waiting till it just blows into their neighbor's yard cuz there was just so much garbage that blew out away. And I think things like that maybe it would be helpful to lift up in communication of hey in times of you know like high winds

recognize that keeping you know our neighborhood clean everyone's responsibility kind of thing. Yeah. Also uh if times of high winds um like take your cans out in the morning. Oh yeah cuz that's what I did because I leave fix done. Those are things we might want to think about just in terms of like what we can do to sort of support not having to have some of these issues that I could foresee happening. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but as I said, I see six uh 648 is just Yeah. Any Yeah. Oh, go ahead.

I was just say if you I'm willing to discuss anything you want in there if you have any questions. I just No, exactly. It's exactly updated word for word how we did it. Yeah, I think it's fine for 648. Um I do like I said reflect back on let's just double check on local regional or ordinances to make sure that the timeline also is similar to Bingham and Beverly and um Bloomfield and the areas around us to see maybe Farmington just to make sure that we're consistent with our neighbors. Um, a lot of theirs was when I looked it was between 5 to 10 days, but then we had specifically said, "Hey, if we miss a garbage day last, so I think that's why we needed at least 10 days."

Yes. But I think that was when I was looking 5 to 10 was the standard I kept finding. Yeah. Okay. All right. We'll confirm because I I think um once we know I think it'd be good to have four 648 and 678 um Yeah. done at the same time. Okay. All right. Let's move down to chapter any other comments on 678. Okay. Uh 648. Sorry. 648. 648. Yeah.

Under penalty equable remedies. Um I think this one may have gotten missed under the municipal civil infraction ordinance. Um I think that it would be who it would be. planner maybe to look into incorporating this as a municipal and civil infraction. Um that allows us quicker activity into the courts if we have to go that route. But under the mun municipal civil infraction citation, it also allows us to request injunctive orders. So wait, that's 648.99 though, right? Yeah, it would be in that particular

Yeah, it says section. Yeah. guilty of a misdemeanor or a municipal civil infraction as determined within the village's discretion. So that's what you're saying. So it could be either one. Most most ordinances in and of themselves, they're either misdemeanors or there's civil infractions. They're not open to both. Are we not allowed to do both or is or not an option? Um no. The ordinance has to be pretty clear. Well, what the ordinance says on mun municipal civil infraction is if it's not a misdemeanor, it's automatically a municipal civil fraction. Okay. But if this says that it's either or

Okay, that's really not a good option. So, are you suggesting we remove civil municipal civil infraction and just leave that misdemeanor? I'm suggesting you remove the or remove the misdemeanor. Yeah. Well, I was saying and leave the municipal civil fraction as as the course of action. Okay. Under an enforcement activity. Yeah, I see what you're saying. So, yeah, remove misdemeanor would be the idea then. Okay. Yeah. Mis here's here's a difference between the two if you're not aware or a misdemeanor we have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt where a municipal civil infraction is a prepoundonderance of evidence.

Okay? In other words, we just have to believe that you created this situation. Okay? We don't have to be there, see it, see that you did it. That's beyond a reasonable doubt. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, it allows us a much more flexibility to be able to work through the court process that way. Gotcha. Then, okay. Besides that, the fine typically is not in jail for because I had some building materials in my Okay. Um, so then yeah, that's why it's so tough. Yeah.

The penalties for a misdemeanor, which is a lower crime where a municipal civil infraction is not typically a crime per se, but you are in violation of what the or Okay. Well, if that's the case, then let's remove mismeter if it makes it easier for the village to enforce. Yeah, I agree. Besides that, we can do that in house. We don't have to run around finding attorneys to to submit this stuff for us. Exactly. Hunter, if we could remove this. Yeah, I got I I know you're tired, but I just want to say it for the record. Yeah, thank you. We told you. Yeah, I appreciate that. I mean, and if if if you come back next month and give us a reason why it needs to be a misdemeanor, then that feel free, but

let us know. Those are typical in under the police actions. You know, there's some things that have to be misdemeanor. I mean violations against or offenses against other persons. Yeah, that that's clearly misdemeanor material. Someone's rubbish is might be but some junkyard doesn't qualify. So misdemeanor for putting chemicals near a well entrance that's not that's a misdemeanor or is it just a little fraction? Well, if you violate eagle um like the environmental, you're you're going to have different um problems. Yeah.

Um okay. Uh so let's move to 1268 for supplemental supplementary regulations. Um so parking and storage vehicles, equipment and storage containers in residential area. Um,

what I saw was added uh, which made it easier was the definition of abandoned motor vehicle based on this public act. Yeah. So, that was that. I like having that there. It's a broad cover, so that's good. And the purpose was summarized. Yeah. Differently which it meets what we had here

and the de definition of commercial vehicles. They updated the um uh No, I'm sorry. No, the uh where's the RVs? I'm looking for that vehicles. Private passenger vehicle, the license private passenger vehicle. Okay, there it is. Chris did a nice job of summarizing the uh the pods and the storage containers in the residential districts. It went through everything. I know we had talked about. Yeah, there we go. I went through that. This keeping a vehicle for reserve store. There's recreational vehicle.

Yeah. Yeah, there it is. Recreational vehicle and then Yep. They removed it from there. Yeah.

Where you at? I'm um looking at regulation C um one with regards to surface parking storage. Yeah, that one's a little tough because I mean are we are crushed limestone? People have gravel too in our neighbor in our village. I mean I have a good section of my yard that is used but then again by visitors not in the winter time. So well I mean I have neighbors who have gravel driveways intentionally because they like the way that it

it is nice. My grandparents have one. And that's not that means it's not crushed limestone. Um yeah, we might be limiting um we might be inadvertently limiting um people that have different types of surfaces. Um, so I guess I guess what it means though is like um Yeah, let's You can't park on your driveway cuz it's gravel. Yeah. Can Can we recommend uh revisiting one? Uh C1. Yeah. Under regulations. Cuz

like I said, like like I could get a ticket in the winter time just for parking on my bottom of my hill. So there's a timeline on it too, isn't there? in a different section, I think. Yeah. So, it's the crushed limestone they're thinking about. Well, not just the I mean, there's more than just crushed limestone that you can park on, right? So, pavers. All right. That was my point that we would probably not want to say just crust, limestone, but you know any appropriate driveway, gravel, stone, sand under the parking ordinance. If it is gravel, the ordinance requires it to be crushed limestone.

It does. Interesting. So you don't get the option of 21A or does that seem unfortunately the parking part of the ordinance requires that? Mhm. And the only reason I would think it has something to do with that is the the parking ordinance needs to be adjusted. Yeah. Yeah. Can we um this is opening can of worms but yeah let's revisit surfaces. Let's let's look at surfaces um in more detail in our next meeting if we could um because section 1262.02 02 um C because I think um depending on when it was written it might be limiting in what people actually use um today.

Yeah, there's all sorts of I mean there's grid systems that let grass grow through the grids. So the reason behind the crushed limestone is previous materials that weren't crushed limestone had fines in it. When you have those spines, that creates dust. Yes. Okay. It's a crushed limestone. There is not the dust attached to it. And I think that's I that's just my opinion of what was behind this. But today there are other materials out there

that like 21A when you first put it down it can get a little dusty but once it packs in it's there's no dust attached right and then it's also I mean for our village we actually encourage permeable surfaces for our for for driveways and sidewalks and we have what permeable surfaces can be per which is What do you mean by this guy right here in the R3 district that wants he's got to grab the rideway and it's it's causing him trouble. So,

right. Yeah. And I think but we we as a village we've because we're all on well water, we want to encourage that our rain water stays in the village and doesn't run off somewhere else. So, um, in fact, and we've run into this before, um, you know, with regards to permeable services and accessory buildings and as well as other basketball courts in the backyard, um, tennis courts, things like that which create, you know, there are permeable ways of doing it and there and there's non-perable ways of doing it. And so, it's it's something we want to encourage. I don't think we want to we don't want to limit people. What? No, I just know there's like an a product that is like um an asphalt, but it absorbs water through the ground.

But that would be fine if they call that if they call it asphalt. Asphalt. Yeah. But it's still it's a it's like one of those, hey, it's a permeable ground. Why does it count towards my permeable surfaces asphalt? But it goes through. My interpretation of what the ordinance says about that is is if you can prove to me that a particular material has a certain permeability of rating I will take the permeability a part part of it and not count it against the lack coverage part right because it is permeable right um there there's a large project going on down on 13 mile where one of the varian es that was taken to them. They

Yes, I know this. Yeah, this was zoning. What what actually the builder did was went out and found the product that allowed him to create that driveway space, but he's got the product and he proved to me that this stuff has like a 90% permeability rating to it. Cool. So 10% of that area is not permeable. The other 90% is. There we go. Perfect. So I mean that's how I interpret what the code was meant to do, right? Yes. Spirit spirit of the code. That means that meets the the intent of the code. Yeah. Perfect.

Understood. Okay. Um going down um parking and storage of commercial vehicles. Um, this one's always kind of um I've I've um I've always been a little concerned about this one because um it does we do have uh people that you know take commercial vehicles home um in the evening and park um and the recommendation that they typically get is park in your garage because that way no one sees your commercial vehicle. on the road and that's the typical recommendation that's given by by a village. Um so um but it does it does does put but but that does does that mean that someone that has an F250 as their daily driver is that I mean that's not not a commercial vehicle to them? I mean and if you're in Texas F-650 is a daily driver for some people.

Yeah. Which is almost a semi. Um and uh um yeah, nothing like pulling up to a restaurant and parking next to one of those. That's I've done that before. Um but yeah, no, they're huge and they're are commercial they're intended for commercial use, but they're not being used in a commercial vehicle. So, is it fair for um is it the commercial vehicle that we're trying to avoid or is it like all the tools and everything that's attached to it and the signage? Is that what we're trying to avoid? And that's I think what they're probably trying to avoid is the gravel hauler, right? Which is what they drive coming home for the night.

Yeah. And I think there I was here before when this was discussed once before. And that's what came out of it is what you find in the ordinance trying to define what is a commercial vehicle and what is not and what do people normally drive or not drive. I mean up where I live it it's not unnerving to see a 350 parked in your driveway and dueling. you know, and so uh even then if somebody has an excursion that's a 350 that's modified like part of the problem is is some of your older homes don't have the capability. No, my my home

these vehicles in them. Yeah. I can't I I the truck I drive is the I couldn't get a Colorado because the antenna would would get broken off first thing. But my Toyota Tacoma fits perfectly in the old garage, but is meant for a sedan. It's not meant for a truck to drive into. I've got a 150 and it is about that much clearance to get into my garage and I have to stick with just a crew cab. I can't go to the super crew because then it's too long and it hangs out the out the building. My garage is 25 foot deep, you know. So, it's tough. How do you do this?

Well, I I want to throw another wrench in there. Let's go the other direction because I'm looking I me personally, I'm looking for all drive car for myself, but one I can afford. I'm looking at these new legalized K trucks that are coming out from uh imported in like they're really cool but I'm using as a daily driver. Is that a commercial vehicle? Moa has a hydraulic bed. Yeah, this is um the new vans they have today. Oh yeah.

All right. Well, let's um I think we need to do a good job of let's go back. Let's let's go home tonight and and let's look at summarizing how we what we what we really think the intent of this is meant to be because you're right. It I mean some it the K truck is so cool. I'm glad you like it. That one's so bad. Maybe we'll have a public comment on why we shouldn't have K trucks or why we should have K trucks. Listen, man, don't do that. It fits in my garage. It hauls what I need.

Well, if it fits in your garage, it's not a problem. Um but yeah, so anyway, so the point though is that how do we how do we manage manage that? Um I I I mean a previous neighbor of mine, he he was a contractor and he was basically just told to park in his garage. So he had a side garage that would fit his truck just because of that complaint from neighbors. So, so let's let's talk about Oh, do you have

Yeah, I think this is a good topic for me also to bring back to council to the question that you were asking cuz I think I can speak to my own opinion, but I don't represent all of council. So, I think it's an appropriate one for all of council, which is like what are we really seeking to regulate here, right? Is it a van, a minivan that has markings on it? Is it or is it the size of the vehicle that we're we're truly concerned with? Yeah, I I personally believe that this is targeted specifically towards vans that have and trucks that have logos on them that don't fit the aesthetic of the neighborhood essentially that which no one realistically is not I don't think people would be bothered by it.

And so that's my personal opinion, right? Like as one council member Yeah. I don't love the fact that like we're interfering with somebody's like that's how they that's how they make their living, right? And so like that's where personally as one council member speaking like I struggle with that and limiting somebody's ability to do so. Um and so I'll I'll bring that back to council to get alignment of like what are we truly seeking to solve with this one.

Yeah. Cuz I have I mean just just as an example I'll tell you I was at the barber last week and um the barber was said pointed out to the park parking lot out in front. He says this guy has come every day and parks his car every day. He's a painter. He parks his car in their parking lot and the parking the parking lot owner is getting ready to want to tow him because he lives in Farmington and there's an ordinance he can't park his painters truck in his driveway. And so every morning he drives his other car to the parking lot, picks up his painters truck, goes to work, he loads and he doesn't leave things in the truck because he doesn't want it stolen. So he takes everything out of his one truck, puts in his painters truck, drives to work, comes back and changes truck. So the car is not there 24 hours a day, but it's there overnight and it, you know, it takes up a parking spot from the businesses there, but at the same time, it's created because of an ordinance that says he can't he can't park his work vehicle at home at his home and unless he's

he has to have two vehicles cuz he can't park one at his house,

right? So anyway, yeah, please take that to council. We can bring that up in our next council meeting. But yeah, that's it. It's it's it's yes, it is definitely something we probably should get better direction on what the intent is in our village counsel now. Okay. Um uh parking and storing of non-commercial vehicles and residential districts. So I mean it makes sense inoperable and unlicensed private passenger vehicles. Obviously we um or recreational vehicles. So, I think those are things that we are definitely trying to address this time around um with this um and and even recreational vehicles. I mean, you look at the neighborhoods around us, those that have recreational vehicles, there are a lot of uh accessory buildings that store the recreational vehicle if they don't store it off site. And you know I the reason why I say that because if you drive I drive my son to high school every morning and when I leave to go out of the parking lot there is one there is a clearly an RV garage that's part that's right next to the high school. Um and and I'm like well I mean that's how they're getting around it. That's how they're covering it.

We have a couple here and okay we have a few here too. You know in order to build them because of the height limitation and accessory buildings you have to build them as an addition to the house. So, it's attached. Y, huh? It has to be attached to the home. Structurally attached. What's that definition mean? 2x4. We have one that parks a great big huge motor home. It's huge and it's got a roof that goes between the two. Like a breezeway, but there's no walls to it. It's just a roof. Yeah. That's structurally attached. It's parked under it. No, no, no. That was before my time, but I didn't Yeah, I know what you're talking about. So, okay. Okay. Um,

well, that's you'd be surprised how many cars parked in houses here. Um, but I think one of the biggest updates for us though is that we do close the loophole up inoperable recreational vehicles um in E2. Um, okay. Uh, any other points that you guys from your reading previously that you'd like to bring up? No, I'm happy we addressed the pods here. Here. Yep.

Okay. That's I like I mean the permit makes sense, right? Um I I but there is there the fee structure on that though? I don't think there is. Right. I didn't see one. I don't think the permit fee would be incorporated into the ordinance. I think No, it's not. It's outside, but it's usually added to the fee structure um table, but I'm looking for referencing that. I remember we talked about it. F1F a permit fee may be established by resolution of the village council. Okay.

Yes, there it is. Thank you. Look at this one. That's s print on my machine. Mhm. Okay. Um, it's actually E3 F1F is where that line is. Do we want to restrict? Um, I guess there's not really no there. I think I do like the restrictions on the placement.

Yeah, that seems reasonable. So, we have um P obviously on a hard surface, a durable surface. Um, I mean, and it's just good practice to have it in a safe upright position. Um, hopefully, uh, that's a common sense thing. Um, but not in the public right road or right away. I do appreciate that. Um, or utility easement. It's

the only thing I have on that is container shall be maintained in good condition, free from graffiti, etc., etc. Uh, this they drop U-Haul, for example, they drop off what they drop off. It's not the renters's fault if there comes pre- graffitied. I understand why it's there. They're just why are we holding them at fault if that's what they end up delivering?

But is the permit required? So, I mean, is it also in the best interest of U-Haul to not have graffiti on there? Completely agree, but depending what franchise you're going to I'm sorry. I think I mean the thing is here's here's the here's the ch the challenge though is um is is is it first amendment right free speech on there and can they use that as a complaint?

Which section are you in specifically? restrictions. Uh, it's under E is what I free from graffiti. So, is graffiti protected protected by the first amendment? Depends on what the graffiti is. Depends if it's Yeah. No, it it shouldn't it should not me matter what it says, but so you'd have to do it in basis of um Well, if it's hate speech, it wouldn't be protected. Correct. Hate speech is a is a uh border border case I guess right I wouldn't say so I wouldn't say so

no in many places it's illegal hate speech is defined and illegal David charity as far as goes we can ban it you just can't do it content based yeah right well we can ban but I'm saying in the reference of you're ordering you go to U-Haul hey I need a pod they deliver the pod it just happens to have graffiti on it are we going to hold the renter responsible for that graffiti if they're just using it for a couple. So, here here's the thing. If you're pulling if you're pulling a permit, they're going to have to read their ordinance, right? Yeah. And so, if they read the ordinance and it says no graffiti, that then they can say, "Look, I'm not allowed to have a pod that has graffiti on it. Is that going to delay me in getting my pod?"

Yeah. Okay. That's that's the route I was thinking would be addressed, but I just want to make as long as we can do graffiti just blanket statement graffiti um maintaining good condition, right? Yeah. So, and honestly, if you're using one of these, you don't want to have excessive rust or look dilapitated or or falling apart container anyway. Fully agree. It's just So we have a a line a permit fee may be established by resolution of the village council. It's unusual to see a line like that.

No, we have it a lot actually. Now we we we went through our ordinances and changed a lot of our fee structures that way. So that way we don't have to change the ordinance to change the fees. The council can do it more dynamically. Yeah. Without change they they change that single Huh. You could require it, but it would be by resolution, right? So, may is subjective. You could or you don't have to. If if the language was that a permit shall be I think you can require the fee, but the the it still needs to be through a resolution by council to set what that is or to change it. I mean, do all permits require a fee?

Typically, there's some processing fee. Well, what you're doing is if you require a permit, a permit is requiring staff to do something. That's why there's usually a fee attached to try to offset the cost of what you're requiring the work staff to do, right? So, all right. Well, well, it'll go to council is to be established by resolution of council or shall be versus may. So really right now they're right now they're going to pass this ordinance anyway. Well, let's put

I say what they can also change that they can also change the the wording from may to shall if they choose to anyway because that they're allowed to do single word like do word edits when they pass the ordinance. We make the recommendation but they end up oh potentially changing the wording. Yeah. Well, what should we recommend? I would recommend that as is a female. I think May is fine. Yeah. All right. Because it gives flexibility but doesn't make requirement. But I guess my question is um what is the fee? I I believe that so I do apply for a lot of permits and uh generally there's always some kind of processing fee, right?

And there's a fee structure resolution that u that the that we that it's basically just a single sheet that tells you what the fees are and that's all they're changing. It's not sheet or a bunch of them. But typically when fees When a resolution is put together, staff usually puts together why this is a fee and then council by resolution says yay or nay or changes it or whatever they do. Um the the fee if you're going to charge a per you really need to provide a function because otherwise it's not a fee anymore. It's a fine right. Yeah.

Okay. And and fines can only be imposed by the courts. So is this I mean but this is the fee is for filing the permit to cover the cost and it would be minimal. Yeah and that's why it's May in a nutshell. We have garage sale sign fees. It's a buck right. I mean that that doesn't cover the cost of what we do but it's it's something that you that requires a person to do for a sign and they're not getting it for free. they do have to pay something.

And then the time limitation, the permits for the time limitations, like, hey, I'm coming in. There may not be a fee associated with the first time filing for the permit, but filing for an extension. It's like, okay, now we're going to charge you a filing fee. Yeah. Right. They could do a a a But that makes sense. Extension fee. But that's what I'm saying. That makes sense to me. It's like, okay, thank you for telling us you're going to have it for 30 days. It's not going in 30 days. You'll get a fine if you don't register the permit. on a lot of our like building permits that get extended if they're going past a certain time. Yeah. Then there's a fee for doing that. Yeah. Temporary certificates of occupancy are usually given for a period of time if you need extension on that pay. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Anything else for this? Um I think if if everything is okay so far, we can come back with any recommendations or changes um from McKenna and then do a public hearing the next month. So be May would be our first public hearing possibly. So uh one of um are we okay closing this topic? I do have one last thing I wanted to share that I forgot to mention earlier um from from the from the from I know I know I'm turning I'm I'm I'm doing terrible today. What? I'm shocked. You're shocked. Okay. I'm appalled. You're appalled. See, actually.

So, actually, one more thing. Um, with regards to public notices, because actually why I meant to meant to bring it up in the, um, previously, but the public not so basically for public hearings, um, not public hearings, um, the public notices, um, they are looking into using the eagle. The challenge with the public um notices using the Eagle versus Oakland County is that they the lead time for the hear the public uh public hearing is um further ahead for because the Eagle comes out once a month and so that's where so that's so that so I talked to Rachel about it and that's that was the conclusion that it would be great to do that. However, if we're going to do something like what happened with one of the permits where we gave basically had a week to give them to do another to to do a public hearing.

Um the question is can we switch between and she has to find this out. Can we switch between venues? Is that legal? If people are looking for public hearings in the eagle only and then we decide to go to the Oakland um county I think we'd have to do a notification of change of venue before we do the change. So, we'd have to do a public notice for a public notice of change. Yeah. So, anyway, so she's she's going to look into that, but that's that's where we stand on that. So, since we brought up public hearing, how does the Oakland press get around that? They're they're more frequent. So, what is um it's not actually a uh paper document, right? It's a No, it's a web web document, but they charge us still to to publish there. And the eagle is

I just it's it's odd that um you know I guess it has a lot to do with circulation. Supposedly the Oakland Press has a wide broadcast. A lot of people will see it. I just don't think that's the case anymore. Well, I get it every day email. Well, good good kudos. That's great. But I have 12,000 unread ones. But I just wonder if there's other, you know, it just seems like there should be other um electronic boards that um would be suitable, perfectly suitable and probably better than the Oakland press for Oh, yeah. Yeah.

No, 100%. I agree. And that's that unfortunately the state of Michigan has to change their laws to accommodate maybe a public hearing email or No, my question is that that that's what I'm getting at is just is is it does it have to be some type of newspaper? Is that what it's saying? Something like that. Public circulation. A newspaper publication. Well, I know we get what's going on in Franklin. I get those emails and I know most residents do. Why can't we promote it? Very This is the law thing that has to be updated. That's why that's why I asked. Yes. Okay. Okay. So anyway, I just wanted to say where her status was. That's all I wanted to say.

Well, you didn't. But there are other commissions within the village that have to do public notices, too. So I'm wondering if that's all inclusive. Yeah. Right. So anyway, the Zodia board of appeals to have to wait a month. Right. Well, and this is this is uh this is also a you know this is something that the it's not the highest priority for the village ministry right now. She's got higher priorities right now, but it is something that we'll continue to look at and we'll make a change. It's it's a cost saving for us. Why we stuck with press? Because we used to do the reviser or whatever that weekly publication was out of Burger King.

Yeah. um similar to the red binder that's up on the northern part of the county. But the the the reason we stuck with the opal press is because of their circulation in their timing. Yeah. But what is the dollar amounts we're talking about? Like $1,000 every I don't most of our most of our bud a lot of our budget is McKenna and our public hearing. So obvious Yeah. So, it's appropriate that we talk about it and that um yeah, that you know, even though Rachel obviously it's not huge on her radar, it's worthy of

No, and she's aware of that. We're discussing it. They they're trying to save money anywhere they can and this is a way they could do it. So, we have to figure out how that works. We'll get the motion to adjourn. Wait. Oh, I do have one question. I'm sorry. This is more for David, maybe. Um I've noticed that Evan and Rachel aren't here at our meetings anymore. Is that like standard practice now? Just so I know. I am happy to follow up on that one. I know the discussion was essentially subbing you up for them. Um, for tonight, Evan is out at he is at

so I agreed to come unlock the door, start the recorder and provide whatever function I could. As far as that is concerned, I don't not plan on being here on a regular basis. Right. My overall expectation is like ideally unless there's logistical reason and again this is up for them on how they want to but just how I would expect would be one person. Okay. Administration would be here um so that we don't double up on kind of people staying late. Okay. Yeah. No, I feel like it's been like three or four months. So, I just wanted to make sure like that if I did need to call someone last minute that I had someone or

there are other commissions in in Oaken County that also that they have they just need someone to take minutes and they just provide just wanted to be updated so we know the same page. I asked Rachel about it already. So, is it policy related or um convention for us was to have a village administrator and clerk here. But remember at that time for a long time our village clerk was also an elected official as well and that was one of their duties as elected officials as clerk. So yeah no I mean you know I just think of it what cuz if they don't need to both be here that's a cost and a burden. I agreeing something. Are you cheaper than them?

No we don't see you guys. No, we you this is great timing, Bill, cuz you've been so so helpful. Second to the motion on the table. No, no, we're still talking. You second. I'm not going to second. All in favor? I look good. I definitely second. Second. Okay. All in favor? Can you oppose? All right. Thank you.