Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

for the Wednesday um February 18th planning commission for the village of Franklin. Uh could I do a roll call starting from the right? Uh uh Sarah Gresston present. Linda Novak present. Steuart Wooters present. Paul Brain present. Harrison present. All right, great. Uh, so do we have an adoption for the um agenda? Uh, the only I was looking at it says items six, seven, and eight. That seems to be not what we discussed last time. It was like 1, two, and three, and then 15, right?

So, I didn't know why if there was some change for six, seven, and eight or Yeah. So uh in feedback from yes come feedback from council and u trustes uh sal who's here will also take a minute and um kind of catch us up during um his uh council leazison um opportunity. Any other questions about the agenda? The only thing is then that it's really not old business because it's not what we discussed last time. Wouldn't that be new business? But either way, it's the Yeah, overall it's a general topic for but yeah,

we we will need to break them down into individual um topics and talk about them independently anyway. Um so even though it's technically in one grouping, um we'll uh this is going to discuss the feedback from council and where we want to start, how we break down each each of the different items. So yeah, we're going to do a few at a time just to not overwhelm ourselves. Correctly. That's right. Yeah, that's right. Pete, but I will make a motion to adopt the agenda. I will second. All in favor? I.

Any oppose? Okay, great. So, um, how about adoption of the U minutes from last meeting? Were there any changes or modifications that you anyone felt were necessary? said no. I did not. No.

Okay. All right. Then good. I have a motion to adopt the minutes from the January planning commission meeting. Motion adopt the minutes from January's planning commission meeting. All in favor? I. Any opposed? Okay. Do I have to abstain? You do have to abstain. Yes. And just we'll just make sure in the minutes that I was watching. Linda abstained.

Okay. Cool. All right. Uh now we can go into our um we don't have a really um yeah we can go into So I didn't remember seeing the budget. It was just on a piece of paper here when we got here. So

is it Oh yeah. Okay. So I'm going to uh I was I was actually going to request that um the office just give us quarterly updates on our on our budget. Um right now we don't um with what we're working through with our treasury um treasurer um less burden on them to uh do it quarterly. So um any oppo anyone any objections to doing that doing the budget our budget? We have very few line items anyway from month to month. Yep.

The only thing was that I know and Evan's not here. I don't know if they ever because it was in our minutes that we did talk about it if we figured out if we were the public hearing comment um the public hearing notice if we ever figured that out. That was the only thing I Oh yeah, I've not heard back from him. We've not we've not finalized that. Um I did make the the request. Did Did Bill have you heard anything on that? No.

Okay. Yeah, because I noticed I noticed um in the Birmingham Eagle that um Beverly um they announced their public hearings in the Eagle. It's it's like the one of the last pages. It's under community communication and their public hearings are there. So that's why I'm curious why they can get away with it, but Well, maybe we can. We just don't know. Yeah, which might be completely fine.

We typically don't through the open press site because They have been technically easier to work with and their publications come out more often which gives us a little more flexibility. But will we get the notices to them so that they can get posted? It sounds like we could do a tiered system then, but I would rather like it seems like I don't know. Well, I'll we'll talk to council. I'm not council. We'll talk to clerks more. Curious to see the price difference. Um I think I think Eagle's monthly, isn't it? Yeah. And I'm sure Open Press is more often.

Yeah. Well, they actually have it daily, but they typically run their public notes on a certain day. But Oakland Press is online entirely. Right. Right. They they still print a minimal document, but most of their services are online. But but it could just hold up our whole process a lot. It did work out better not just for planning but for you know we have so many board of appeals meetings. We have other public hearings that you know we have timing issues with too. Yeah that's a good point. No that was not raised previously when we discussed a cheaper option. Yeah that it may not

right. So I I mean in recent history we've had that situation where we did a site plan approval um and we did an like a not an emergency meeting but a non-normal scheduled meeting to be able to do the site plan review within a week or so of planning meeting. So, right. Yeah, I can I can see the advantage of that. I kind of notifications, especially when we're dealing with the zoning board, they only meet once a month and those those have deadlines

that are much tighter for people to supply information and get certain things and still allow us time to produce document that gets published and once a month just never did really fit into the meeting schedule and stuff like that. Well, and anyway, I know that this is off. We've now extended the topic a little bit more on this from just budget, but um just the just the history of planning commission public notices. Um we have been we typically if it's an ordinance that we have public hearing for, it lasts we've been talking about it for months prior to the public hearing. Um if not a year for a full year prior to the public hearing. Um the only ones that are um would be a problem for be of getting to a site plan late um for whatever very whatever reason. Um so I I don't know if it's anyway we can we'll we'll I'll continue to work with the count um the clerk's uh the off village office about that.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Um so move from to the official reports. Um since we have uh trusty salad here, thank you for being here. Um would you mind u as council leazison providing us um your input for from council?

Yeah, thank you. Um last council meeting we went through and looked at the recommendation related to um the nuisance ordinance and notably one of the things that we did change from a policy perspective was the prioritization. So we kept the abandoned v the I guess not abandoned inoperable vehicles and kind of that grouping. Um and then the other one that we kept along with that or not kept we added in was um the litter and then the rubbish kind of grouped together as well. Um and then dep prioritize because we were trying to do groupings. If your preference is three, we can always go back and add an additional one, but we wanted to kind of take it in phases. And the reason that we thought that uh we wanted to insert litter and rubbish is that was one of the things that initially brought this forward to get the issue forward to begin with. Um but I did talk with Stuart uh to acknowledge the fact that I think it can be difficult um to identify what constitutes rubbish. What is a child leaving their bike in the driveway compared to a rusty bike that's been sitting in somebody's yard for 15 years? um how do you create an ordinance around that? And so, uh as you go through the process, I'll stay engaged to make sure that if we run into those type of struggles that I'm communicating that back to the council accordingly to make sure that we're not wasting your time.

Fair enough. Thank you. Yep. Um the one thing that came out of the council meeting for me that I thought um from when I was there that made sense um to add to our discussion here is um the importance of staying involved in the various organizations within um the village whether it is uh Main Street or whether it is the historical district commission or um our the or the um or any of the different organizations within the village um MCA society. Yes, thank you.

There may be others and I know garden club is always a good

there's there's a lot of overlap also of individuals in those different organizations. um you'll see see many uh familiar faces but I just wanted to remind planning that u one of the things I think that we've done well in the past um recent past is is trying to stay engaged with those other organizations and being part of of those discussions zoning obviously we have someone on zoning um which makes it easier it's an um it's an easy win um but just you know as we let's not lose sight of that achievement of of trying to reach out and be be more engaged. I think I mean planning is one of those positions within the organiz within a village charter that um is essential um to the the um or our ordinance process as well as um site plan reviews. But um that means that it's also on us to make sure that we're um communicating well with those other organizations that can be impacted by the things that we do um and being relevant and having Mr. Den here um who works also closely with the code enforcement but also brings site plans to us is has been helpful will be helpful as well going forward as we are also drafting ordinances. So um and he has his ear on other uh with with other um organizations as well. So just as things come up please um continue communicating and working with those other groups. So that's all I wanted to say for my council person u report. anything from the commissioners that uh you'd like to bring up?

Zone leazison. Yeah, we did have a meeting last month and it was actually a sign board of appeals meeting rather than zoning. Um, okay. For the new uh sense center going in and we approved a ground sign because there are two little fences there and so it was it within 5 ft of the boundary. Um, but it what was what was it for? Who's whose building? Well, it's Lisa McDonald's. Okay. Place and the new place. And it's going to be uh branded as the Sen Center

Commons. Z. That's right. Zen's Commons. I'm sorry. Um Sens. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So, it's it's a cool project. Even have a picture. So science anything more about I mean I'm a little off topic but the uh so what will the sun center do? Well or the son's commons it's it'll be the two buildings. It'll be the two buildings. So it'll continue to be um you know what the main thing and the other one

it's going to you know I think it's kind of conceptual still at this point. Um, but I think it's going to be kind of a gathering place and uh you coffee and this is where the old farmhouse was. Yes. Okay. Drink presumably. Yeah. Yeah. So, it it's it's a very interesting concept and it looks very exciting and it's going to be great. Good. Good. All right. Um, then let's move on to public comments. Uh uh we do not see much from the public here today. How about the distinguished gentleman in

he might too busy. He's too busy. Uh yeah. Conference call.

Yeah, on a conference call. That's right. Um I remember when my son was in the same seat um here. Uh so I totally get it. So, I mean, I do put I do plug us every uh council meeting to uh for for the public to come and uh and share uh um hopefully at some point uh um they'll want to engage and hopefully not for something controversial um that we might have said or or or been they had been led to believe um but rather um be part of the uh process that we're doing um going through. And I think that the next two ordinances we're working on will hopefully bring in our public to help us actually shape um and tackle these ordinances. So, uh here's hoping for public comments next week, next month. Uh moving on. So, yes, this is old business, but uh we'll move them to new business as we um define them. but the revisions of the village code um as requested by council. So, they did take our input and I just you know we want to stay true to their goals and their priorities and I appreciate the effort we put in last week and I think it helped helped in that discussion. Um, so, uh, the old business. So, for today, um, uh, Chris, you've created a memo for us. Um, um, and those of you that had a chance to read through, uh, the memo. Um, it is, uh, um, not only includes the memo, but also line item call outs for with questions with regards to these ordinances. Um, uh, Chris, would you mind just going through and helping us, uh, summarize and and go over what you presented to us?

Um, just so we're only going to start with grouping one. We're not touching grouping two yet. Is that really the Is that a priority or we're doing because I saw you had both? I thought we were just doing one set at a time. So, I wasn't sure what the Well, I've uh focused on both of them. Okay. I wanted to point out, of course, that Sarah's done some uh Thank you. I'm just stealing a pen. I will be right back. Great work. also on this. But um

um I've focused on both group one and group two. And there's two sections of the ordinance uh chapter 648 and section 1268.14 that uh would be affected most by amendments that would relate to group one and group two. And so what I've done is I've made copies of those two and um I I um it would be presumptuous of me to go ahead and make revisions without getting input. So, what I've done is I've gone through here and I've made I've redlined comments um and u questions and um what I'd like to do is generate some discussion tonight so that I can get some input and uh also show you uh where some areas where um these two sections need some uh attention. And then the second part of my uh work is a set of definitions that um I've put together. And then um the third thing I wanted to talk about was municipal civil infractions which uh Sarah uh touched on in her memo as well. So, um, if you want to turn to, uh, my memo on, uh, chapter 648, littering, uh, because, um, the littering section not only deals with littering, but it also deals with accumulation of rubbish or rubbish or garbage, which uh is addressed in 648.06.

So, it addresses two of the items uh that we talked about um in our list. But um uh the first thing I wanted to point out was uh when we talk about uh garbage and um refu refuge and uh waste and um there's there's uh and litter. Um it's sort of confusing those terms but uh refuge is an all-inclusive category of waste and it includes both uh decaying waste which is garbage. So garbage is decaying waste and it also includes solid waste which is rubbish. So refuge refuge is a all-incclusive category. Now litter is also an all-inclusive category of waste but the distinction is that litter has the distinction of being scattered about. So uh that's the distinction between refuge and litter. Litter is uh the distinction is it's being scattered about. So that's um the distinction that you have to keep in mind. So anyway, when you look at the definitions under 648 um some of the things I pointed out is first of all in garbage um they use the word patrusible and um I propose to eliminate that word because nobody knows what it means.

Word of the day. Yeah. And um which means basically that it's subject to decay. So um um that's why I put that those words in parentheses there. So um you find that in a lot of nuisance ordinances and everybody asks, "Well, what does that word mean?" And it just means it it rots. Um then um my next comment and interrupt anywhere you want to. Um

so so real quick I think to answer um um um Commissioner Harrison's question um and maybe I'm just stepping back for a second. Um I my understanding was we would do work on two ordinances at a time. So group one and group two would be the two that we would work on simultaneously. I I I view that as six ordinances. But if you're using it viewing it as two, well,

yeah, it be it becomes two when we work can bring them down, right? It's three and three. Sure. That's that's kind of the way I was interpreting these is that is bundling them into a single ordinance for each group. Oh, so you want to combine all of these those three into one ordinance and not have separate ordinances for each of those. Yes. And not just address them. I guess

I mean and and then and this is where we have to you know with um as as we're going through this if we feel like there's a much better if it's better to demarcate them into individual ordinances then yeah let's do that. But as far as the initial scoping of these groups, I think right now it makes sense to to treat them as ordinance one, ordinance two until we dig into it and say, "No, you know what? This really needs to stand alone." Sure. Is that fair? Mhm. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Um well I guess the uh so there were the the other issues that we had talked about uh will we just treat those further on down the road? Yes.

Okay. This is just the beginning of a of a list. Right. Okay. and then private premises. Um when we get to the definitions uh that I put together, I've uh proposed a different different definition which is a lot simpler than this one. Uh this one is uh too long winded and is very confusing. Um it just it's there's too many words and um it just uh there's no need for it to be this confusing. So

and it should not include the word a pertinent in my opinion. A pertinent it's like protrusible. It's like what in the world does that mean? It's a realist. Yeah. I don't use it a pertinent too. Yeah. Got it. which actually some of it, you know, like even the mailbox because our mailboxes are across the street. So it right it does sort of have to be spelled out. Well, you Chris, you had proposed an alternate. Yeah, we'll get to that later.

Let me let me just ask this question though. So if the definition is too long, are there other places within our body of ordinances that define private premises? Because I feel like public space, public place, private premises are going to be already defined in other ordinances as well. And why would we have a different wording in one ordinance versus another? I can check that out because if this if if this is, you know, obviously if it's too long or or working out like let's please let's let's not have definitions flying all over the place. Yeah, I'll check that out.

That might contradict because we've run into that before, especially with um vehicles um commercial versus um commercially owned versus a commercial vehicle. Like so commercial, private owned, commercially used or a commercial vehicle by a commercial company. You come home from work in your car and it's a commercial vehicle but it is your car that you use every day. Okay. um under refues. Um I just wanted to point out that abandoned automobiles is defined under state law and um so there is a definition for that that we should include in the ordinance.

Good. Then um on the next page um we talk about village dumps. the official village dump. To my knowledge, the village doesn't have a official village dump. Unless I've been keeping it secret. Yeah. The unofficial one's the uh ledge off of 14 mile into the ravine. Right.

And then um under 648.03 03. Um I I think that should be rewarded. It's um very awkward. Um needs to be um uh rewarded better. Uh but um one thing that um you should be aware of which is common in most litter ordinances is that last sentence. Persons owning or occupying property shall keep the sidewalk, gutter, and ditch in front of their premises free of litter. And actually uh most um nuisance ordinances say that they have to keep their um own property free of litter. And a lot of people are shocked when they see that in an ordinance uh that um so I just wanted you to be aware of that.

Uh question for you. Where does dog poop fall into all of this? Because walking through my neighborhood, no one seems to pick it up. That would be garbage. But it's but it's scattered about. But it's subject to decay. Well, it's not if it's I guess if it's not in the the the gutters I walked or front of the premises. See, yeah, litter is the broader term. Yeah. The exact term is garbage from the handling, preparation, cooking, and the consumption of food. Yes, it does. I would really appreciate I don't have a dog. I really appreciate not having to pick up someone else's bag on my property, especially in the winter in the spring clean up.

At least if they bag it. That's more just poop everywhere. The Easter egg hunt. I'll make a note of that. That needs to be covered. I guess what made me think about that is that I think private garbage receptacles could be nice in some neighborhoods that that encourage people to throw their poop bags out. But that was what triggered that thought to me. I just don't know what an authorized private receptacle is. It's a weird thing, but that's just what made me think of dog poop. The only thing I can think of being an authorized private receptacle is everybody's trash cans on garbage day just being at the curb. What is the stuff at FCA is that? And we do have them.

FCA is owned. Yeah. Does that meet the definition of private? It's private property. It's public public and actually it's FCA is now quasi public. Right. Um yeah, that would but the property itself is designated as public quasi public institutional. Right. Yeah. Right. But would all the garbage cans over there meet that authorized private receptacle? Probably. Only because it's on it. only because it's public property. Yeah. I don't know. We might we might have found one. So, there we go. Okay. So, do we know what a priv authorized private receptacle is? I I don't know.

So, we should delete that or Well, does it include all the garbage cans over by the baseball diamonds? Well, okay. And so, um, I think the only thing the definition that applies to the authorized private receptacle for collection are things that are our waste management company would be willing to use for disposal of waste,

right? Um, because they're the ones that accept or reject containers for for waste. Um, for recycling, they define what they ask you to put stickers on to define recycling. for yard and landscaping waste. They also ask you to define what is that and then also for for garbage receptacles and um there's only a certain I believe they have set stipulations on the village of and for homeowners on what is considered a receptacle. Yeah. I mean I don't know if you can get a little pickup type container closer to your house but that would be an authorized private receptacle.

Yeah. But also like I mean we encourage our villagers to not make your receptacles convenient for dog walkers um and for dogs because you know then that means that they're at everyone's curb all week long, right? Sure. Would that also consider like Franklin like the restaurant's like dumpster? Like would that would that be an authorized driver receptical? This is a garbage can in front of a bu a store door. Is that a private private? So, so I guess I don't know.

Well, and they're not depositing in the streets or the sidewalks. They're They are next to the sidewalks. Some I don't know. Okay. We'll have to look that that up. Yeah, we'll have to think about that one. It's referred to uh in the next section as well. We we definitely need a definition of what an authorized private receptacle is. So, um I would prefer not to have one in my

We'll have to give that one some thought. under uh 64806 it talks about the village marshall which to my knowledge was there there was a marshall but there is no doesn't it fall back to the village administrator I think we've did that once before when we had that term most of the ordinances that refer to anybody that has authority is either the police the village administrator and or other authorized individuals such as the building official, the ordinance officer, that type of thing.

Yeah. But there is no longer a marshal. But what's Don's position? Yes. But I think I I think we should double check make sure I think if if anything that should village administrator and then they can and to whoever they delegate the task. That way it'd be more generic in that regard. So, um I mean the last time these ordinances were touched was 1962. So, they did a marshals a long time ago. Was that something in the charter that referred to a marshall? I'm not sure. I'd have to look

anyway. Now, the down at the bottom of that paragraph, it it talks about um the amount of time that somebody has to abate nuisance, that being litter on their property, and it gives two days to 10 days. And um my question is, is this time frame okay with you? 10 days is too long. That's what I thought. is not enough. So, so I look at it like you have at least a week till garbage like garbage day. So, it should at max be a week.

But I think like it's that would really be my maximum of like you have time to get rid of it before then. But if you don't then a week gives you at least one garbage pickup. Yeah. And 10 days gives you guaranteed two though. No, not necessarily. depending on what day of the week. Should there be some kind of a notice to cure in there? Like if they don't do it there is that's what the village marshall or whoever is going to replace the village marshall is going to do. What power? I I

well but but is there a cure as far as that if they don't get rid of it that the you know the village can pay to have it done and that they will be well there's two options well there's multiple options and most of this goes back to the part where Chris was mentioning the municipal civil fraction process almost each ordinance has somewhere in it or in a group of ordinances it has a penalty or a violation procedure attached. Okay.

Which lists what the penalties could could be or um is if as a violation unless otherwise designated anything with zoning or like ordinances are a municipal civil infraction. There are some ordinances and especially in your police powers that keep them as misdemeanors and they take different processes through the system. Um, municipal civil infraction there's there's a layout within the ordinance that says how that gets addressed and what you have to do, how that process takes place. Okay. So

I did actually um as the civil infraction I noticed that that was in most villages when I was looking at them what they did and I in my section 10 that is um standard practice was um on mine section 10A is that describes what most um that I found did. So like 250 for the first defense, 500 for the second, 1,000 for any other ones. and that they gave within between five and ten days of um was the average of time that they gave people to be able to clean it up. Otherwise, it does consider to be a lean against the property.

It just I think it depends on what it is. I mean, you know, if it's if it's something that's

an organic waste material, you know, keep in mind that it's already been sitting there for a while for somebody to complain about it or notice it and call somebody out there and to give them another 10 days. I, you know, we're it's cold out right now. You're talking July and if there's some kind of waste out there that could be attractive to rodents that needs to be deal deal with out here with quickly.

The way I look at this though is not less than meaning that they can't set a time limit less than two days and not more than 10 days meaning they they can't set longer than 10 days. That's the bound which you have that they can set the the code the code enforcement officer can set to take care of things because I would argue that some ordin I would defy someone to remove some things within the village be able to do it within 48 hours in some cases depending on what they're trying to remove and abate and and making a stipulation that's harder for the v just as hard for the village to get rid of for a homeowner um or a property owner in the village I don't think it makes sense But um some things some some things take take more time to remove and you need to give take give allowance to that.

Right, Bill? Yeah. As an enforcement and of this whole process, uh flexibility sometimes is the key to success. Yeah. Right. Don's great at this. He has flexibility to weigh out that time frame and be able to work with the people. And that's that our whole emphasis is compliance not penalization. So we look at it from a how do we get compliance? Well different people do things in different ways and they have different motives for doing it and so on and so forth. Some people are hardliners. Okay. I've had to take numerous people to court. Right.

The municipal civil fraction. I've had to get injunctive orders out of judges to get certain things done. The the bigger problem is setting up an ordinance where it allows us to go on to the property. Now we got issues that the ordinance may say so but then you got some trespassing potential issues and then if we do that we the village incurs a cost and most ordinances where that is allowed to happen there's a cost recovery set up in that ordinance. uh such as weeds. You know, we just we're going to put notice out next week for we have a weed ordinance and that ordinance says we have to post in the paper and you have to keep your grass cut at 8 in and if you don't, you're going to get violations and the end result of that is if you don't do it, we can come on to your property cut and we're going to send you the bill. The problem is if they don't pay the bill, then you got to go through the process of putting it on as a deluent tax.

I mean, this becomes a real administrative pain in the neck. I will say not set up for it. It gets worse for for the weed one. I will say you there are two posters in the village office. You should probably take down that

because it talks about creating rain gardens and natural waterways for our village. And that's that's the other part of the weed ordinance is um you got rain gardens, but you also have a lot of properties within the village that are basically natural areas. Does that mean everybody's got to cut every weed down on every piece of property? You know, it becomes a real nightmare. Um, but I just as a point, if you're going to go on somebody's property that generally takes a court order to do so, and then in doing so, if you're if we're the village is going to do that, somebody's got to pay the bill, right?

And typically, uh, village councils don't necessarily want to spend tax dollars to clean up a individual's property. So then you got to set up a system where you bill it back to the owner and then if the owner, like I said, if they don't pay, then it ends up a process where you have to put it on your tax bill. It it gets really crazy. It can be done, but it is very definitely administratively labor intense. So we want to just focus on a finebased system and not a village correction based system. Yeah, municipal civil I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt, but municipal civil infractions are one of our best tools.

Well, to accomplish that, since we segueed into municipal civil infractions, let me um the the ordinance currently addresses that in chapter 212. Now, I spoke to Evan earlier today and he said that we have we're not implementing that in Franklin. Is that true? Evan's not the enforcement officer. We we don't like doing that. If we can get compliance without going through that process, we trial. We go to the end to make Let me just There's

Let me ask a question there. It calls for setting up a municipal civil infractions bureau. Is that It's in our ordinance now. Yeah, I know. Is that set up? Yeah. Who's ahead of that? Well, it's supposed to be the clerk except for we keep changing clerk. I'm not sure the current clerk knows exactly what all his responsibility. No, he doesn't know yet. I can assure you he doesn't.

But that's for a municipal civil action where the person responsible. We can accept payment here under the m municipal civil infraction. We can accept payment if the person accepts responsibility. If they want to give explanation or if they want to deny it responsibility, we have no choice in the matter. If you follow through municipal and civil infraction law,

issue them a municipal civil infraction citation and they go to the court because the judge is the only one that can accept a accepted excuse and or uh try the fact whether the person is responsible or not denying guilt. Now, if they accept guilt, have have the fines been established here by resolution? Oh, I didn't know that. Uh Evan didn't know that. We haven't been down that road with Evan yet. Yeah.

Yes, it is. There. Okay. It's it's under the feed schedule which is adopted by resolution. It's part of that whole book that has fees attached. Okay. So that moving ahead then on to the next page on 648.99 where it says penalty and equitable remedies. That probably should refer to chapter 212, municipal civil infractions, instead of saying it automatically goes to a court of competent jurisdiction, right?

If if in fact the actual particular ordinance that there is a violation for should state whether it is a civil infraction or if it is a misdemeanor. But almost all ordinances with the exception of personal injury things and a lot of your police ordinances they they still remain miserable. Well, these are pretty much anything that has to do with zoning or keep the village clean or anything like that is should be a municipal civil infraction. Right. So, so should that also connect to then the fee schedule as well as that? Okay.

Yes. because I couldn't find that either when I looked. I didn't see that either. It's under the masterpiece. That's Yeah, I think that it was a separate thing that I did. I I suggested that years ago because well, two reasons. One is if you put a fee schedule in the ordinance to change that schedule, you have to open up the whole ordinance to adjust money. That's that's it's that's a poor way to do it because you end up discussing a lot of things in the ordinance that it has nothing to do with how much fee for fine. Yeah. The second part of that is if you do it by resolution, which you're allowed to do,

it's easy for us to amend certain parts of the fee schedule, bring it back to council as a resolution, you can get it approved. building fees, um, fines, uh, all sorts of fees that are attached to things are in that schedule. And it was agreed years ago that we would create a master fee schedule, which allowed easier processing of that information. So, I guess my thought with allowing the flexibility for enforcement needs to be met with neighbors dealing with things that drag on for months and months and months. Um, and I don't know how to necessarily balance those two. I think 2 to 10 days from it would be nice if there was a time where they have to make a decision within the time of notice they need to you know issue a civil infraction or whatever within 24 days of them being aware and confirming its presence and then but like I because I don't want it to drag out for 6 months a year more so I guess I don't know how to balance that you know flexibility that you like to have compliance but then people living with garbage for ever. So I don't know what your thoughts are, if you have any insight um on how to address that

because I've done this for 40ome years in numerous municipalities. Um I I think it's helpful to make your desires known as far as a time frame is concerned, but I really find it a bit limiting on your enforcement staff when you start putting exact dates on when certain things have to happen. I don't disagree that she shouldn't have to live next to a house that's got junk in his head for 50 years because you got a hoarder living there. I I get that. But and that's part of what I think brought this whole thing up for discussion. But at the same time, your ordinance has to be definable enough to make that violation make it through the system

courts or otherwise. can't be that ambiguous. It's got to be pretty nailed down. So, um I'm not sure where the time frame says that something's got to happen when this happens or that happens. What What are you suggesting when the 10 days is gone? Well, you want it to go from there.

That's what I'm saying. Like I would like to I think residents would like to know of a time frame where they could get like a final resolution whether or not they're going to people will be issued a ticket or they're just going to continue trying to work on compliance for a longer time. It would just be nice if there was but like you have a hoarder that's been there 50 years. They're going to clean it up in 10 days. But like, you know, other things can be resolved quicker. But I I don't know what the exact answer is other than putting guidelines on there. If you have a notice, someone's in violation, you give them 30 days, it's not done, and the consequence is a civil infraction, then they get a civil infraction. That's right. And and and

that's been my philosophy over the years, but that isn't necessarily the philosophy that always transcends around town. So that's why I'm saying what is it you want to happen at a certain date. um that can be defined. Your ordinance can say that, but when you do that, you take away some of the flexibility from the ordinance staff to get things done,

right? And and and I think whatever date or time frame we put in there, council's going to have the opportunity um during their readings to uh adjust or or change based upon what their pulse on the village is based upon the electric that have elected them. And so, um, I think it's on us to, um, study out what makes sense. So, and why we pick certain time frames if we choose to do different time frames. Um, because because I know from from communication that I've had with villagers, um, I'll get a text message, you know, initially I'll get a text message multiple times in a week about a specific issue. I'll talk to count the clerk um, about it. um code enforcement officer will go out but I have um but but the close the feedback loop I I tell them to go and talk to the village office to um to close the loop on that but then in a month later I'll get the same text from that same person about a similar the similar problem and I don't know um the status of it because I haven't followed up with them because I told them to work work with the village office on it

and they should

and they should but but then from my standpoint Um, I it would be nice to be able to say within x number of days the village is either going to enforce or choose to enforce or not enforce and if you if you're texting me 30 days later and it's still an issue. Um, ideally the village has made a determination whether or not they're going to enforce or not enforce and that person has been notified um already to to the enforcement. So, so from a and that's that's more of an administrative um um requirement where where I say if someone texts me and I say well afforded I'll talk to the village about it but also expect you to talk to village office about it. I'll at least know I can put a timer on myself and say if they come back to me in 30 days and they have the same question they did 30 days ago either they either the office hasn't done anything or they're not satisfied with the response that the office provided or something. So at least know that yes they've been notified the village is not going to act upon it if you're hearing about if you're still having this problem and talk to them to make sure it's been taken care of. But but I several of these problems last 6 months to 8 months and I get text messages

18 months. 18 months. Yeah. And has been a verified complaint. Yes. What you're saying? Yes. Then that should go to the attention of either the village administrator or the orchards officer there. He is the one that's actually processing that. And I talked to them and they have talked about it and they have worked it through, but the but there's no resolution, right? Like there's no final conclusion on on whether or not the light has been changed or lighting. There's one in particular I know. Yeah.

And and it was determined by not only the ordinance officer, we've had policemen out there at night to verify this. We've had uh numerous pe I've been by it myself to see if it's really an issue and we event I believe that eventually that person was told it's not something that we can address. It's not right. No. And and that's but he just doesn't let it go. He continues to head down the road.

But okay, sorry. We're I I I think I think I'm using a specific but we're we're we need to talk more general. I think that the point is is that it would be nice not necessarily in the ordinance, but to have an administrative understanding for for us to know um what the what the minimum or maximum time period which the village is going to say. We will we will either make a determination by this time period from the time of the report or or um you know you unfortunately villager uh neighbor um village can't do anything about it and it's been 30 days they've investigated for 30 days and they can't do anything about it like there's or they don't see a vi there's no measurable violation or some something along those lines but I think it's it is frustrating for villagers

um and it's not it's not something it's not that it bothers them in a driveby, right? Most of the time, most of the complaints that I get are not from a driveby. I saw rubbish on the road. Um, this needs to be cleaned up right away. Most of the complaints that I I receive or that other people receive that I've heard of um tend to be where the village where the neighbor is impacted by another neighbor directly. And many times you can just reach out to the neighbor and say, "Hey, you know, my kitchen window sees your flood light and it shines right through my kitchen window every night." and can you change the angle? And I use that example all the time because in that case I was the go-between but I didn't need to be and they changed the direction of their flood light and solve the problem.

Lighting becomes a really difficult issue for enforcement. And here's part of the reason why during the summertime it's night till you know 8 9 10:00 at night. We don't work those hours. We've actually had the police go out on the midnight shift to to verify some of these complaints. Yeah. Um I know Don encourages people all the time talk to your neighbor. Yes. You know, half the time you can these things can be resolved between neighbors, but for some reason life's changed over the course of years and people probably don't even know who the neighbors are, let alone talk to them.

Well, from a safety standpoint, you should get to know your neighbors regardless. on my street. I live on a dead end street. There's 11 of us. We all know each other. We all look out for each other. So on. Yeah.

I I guess I'm confused on like a scalability. So I look at it like there's a problem such as changing a light maybe to maybe something, you know, like much larger, right? How do we put that sort of like have that frame and lens when we're trying to give a time frame of like the idea of like hey I someone could actively do this within a day versus know the hoarder's house you can't clear up you know like within that time frame. I know like we had a neighbor who inherited a house that you know kind of was that situation. We wouldn't have called on them but like it could have clearly gone on for a very long time. So like it's hard for me to like look at it in a lens of like scalability of like I can give you five to 10 days when it could be a problem that couldn't that could take much longer than that. And I wonder to Stuart's point if it's maybe just like a matter of hey we are addressing it looking at at it this day documenting it we are determining or giving them sort of flexibility of like what sort of range is appropriate in that way and also it yes it is great to talk to your neighbors but like plenty of my neighbors are snowbirds and that you know like they're out of town for six months out of the year that I couldn't get a hold of them if I wanted to in Charleston for 6 months. So then it's like, okay, what do you do then? Right. So I I think that there needs to be some teeth in it. And I think part of what it's coming from from council is like there needs to be more like enforcement ability on it and a couple of those places. So I do think that there needs to be something in it and we need to give some time frames, but also recognize that like it's not a one-sizefits-all

sort of scenario. And I think that's where we're going to really have to dig into the nuance of it of just like how do we figure out what that flexibility can be to and to who?

Yeah. I think I think what would help a lot of our villagers is if they knew the process of code enforcement. What what is what is the flowchart that Don or someone goes through depending on time of day, depending on the type of ordinance? what does that flowchart look like with regards to or enforcement of an ordinance? Um, especially an ordinance like the ones we're discussing tonight. Um, so that they can at least see we are here in the process of code enforcement from the time it was reported to whether it there's there's there's a loop back mechanism in the flowchart. understanding that process and making it clear for the villagers to understand both the reportee and the the person reporting and the person being reported on so they know kind of how the process goes and that's not an ordinance that's a that's a government process document right

administrative process yes administrative process

I mean that's suggest I I have worked for numerous communities over the years and very few ordinances I've worked with has time frames of when things have to be done because like you were just saying, every situation is just different. They're not with each other. Maybe the ordinance needs to say instead of uh specifying 2 to 10 days or something like that, it needs to say give the uh ordinance enforcement officer the um ability to say uh to specify the time that it takes that the applicant has to remedy the situation. This is a 30-day project. This is it'll be this is a 30-day project. This is a 14-day project,

right? So, give the enforcement, but it needs a deadline though. It doesn't go out for 6 months, right? Yeah. Right. If it's a matter of health and safety, I think there's got to be some kind of a priority schedule. Well, that would make importance more important on the ordinance officer to do something about it. Yeah. I mean, if somebody's leaving putting their trash out, so two and not putting a cover on it and there's food in there and the neighbor is seeing rats. Um, that's an issue. That's an issue. I mean, this is what's happened in Berkeley. Berkeley's had a huge rat problem.

Oh, I understand. and that I I guess that in my head I'm thinking old cars that haven't been moved in a while and pestilence. So, you know, very I I don't know if there's a way of of you know depending on if it's a matter of health, safety, or aesthetics. You know I well then not not to step on anybody's toes or not to aggravate better not I just hit a

but I'm going to do it anyway having done ordinance enforcement again for 40ome years not every shoe fits every situation and to require somebody to do something that doesn't make sense from an an enforcement standpoint point. Um I I guess what I'm saying is councils are legislative, planning commissions are recommending bodies, administration is how you process that information. And for that ordinance to dictate how the administration performs its functions is going to get really tough.

Yep. It's just probably isn't what everybody wants to hear, but it's it's a reality. No. And we've had we've had ministers that um don't want to enforce anything and we've had administrators that um have been very lenient in or not lenient. I I've not actually experienced any that have been too uh

but I have been here long. I've been here for only nine years right in the village and I'm involved with four different um administrators right and in in some cases some were you know this is it it was not their priority and enforcing an ordinance is not the priority because it created more paperwork for them and they could and council necessarily might not be might not at the time council might not have been looking at the results from those enforcement activities um as as as as as seriously as as you know they may be looking at it now.

So I would like to make a statement. Bill, do you mind if I just add one thing? Um so you know right now we're in like this litter uh section. Is that correct? Yes. And um you know we're looking more generally at nuisances,

but I think Lindy, you pointed out like a car is very different from having trash in your yard. Um, so would this enforcement declaration apply to all violations, cars, trash, anything nuisance related? That seems to be one solution is that you do have different enforcement declarations or enforcement policies for different circumstances.

Yeah. And you and you think of it in terms of of scale um which allows some discretion rather than trying to put a number on everything. You know trash in your yard is 10 days or you know hoarding situations are 10 days. Well it seems like they should be different. Right. Right. I think that's where we're headed. Yeah. Yeah. David, can I ask you a question? Sorry.

I was going to say one one other thing. You know, to me, the process is very clear. I don't think we need a flowchart. It's pretty much, you know, you you get a letter says clean up, take care of your thing, and uh if that doesn't happen, the police department is going to become involved and then you're going to go to court and a judge is going to make a decision about what needs to happen, right? Actually, the ordinance enforcement myself as well as them, we have ticket writing abilities. Mhm. Many

and and and I'm sure that you know the considerations that you know we allow our administrators to make our our staff to make judgment calls. We talked about this earlier hardship cases, right? No one was interested in people who have hardships, but it's a reality and we do allow our administrators to make make decisions that that consider that. But obviously once you start to litigate, you know, our costs go up quite a bit too. So um but you know that is the flowchart right yeah and there's judgment involved in each step and it it is hard to you know put super firm constraints on it. Can I offer just one more quick thing?

Okay sure please. The people that are complaining are complaining about another resident. We try to treat all residents with a certain amount of respectability. So just because somebody's complaining, right, complaining about another resident and from an ordinance enforcement standpoint, I got to deal with it from both sides. That's right. Okay. Or Don's got to deal with it from both sides. Y.

So we're not going to run out there with a ticket book and start flying tickets to everybody just because, you know, we're going to work with both sides to try to get. Now, I think you're you're correct in the point that people don't the general public really doesn't understand the process and and when they don't understand the process, they drive home every day and they see the same thing sitting there every day and it wears on there. It grinds them. The village hasn't done anything. Okay, I'm going to get a hold of Stuart. He's a buddy of mine, you know. Okay, I I dealt with you for years that way. We do the best we can to try to resolve all the issues from both. Correct. I appreciate

that's why I'm concern that's why the flexibility to me is a must if you're working with the effect. All right. Chris, do you mind um um moving to the next?

I just gonna ask David a question just from his perspective on council and your legal mind. Um, we're obviously talking about like there's administrative, there's planning, there's council, there's all of these people that are coming together to try to sort of figure out all these different sides of this. Is there like I guess your council lens? Are you looking at it like we do want it to be like a more scalable, flexible sort of situation in terms of like how we present it or are you wanting us to be more detailed and like finite on things?

Um, so I'll answer it kind of in a multi-ter just based off the conversation that was happening. Um, so I think to address kind of Peter's concept around how do you go in and like is a car equivalent to dog poop from from that fine standpoint? I think we can handle that from a if we have an active schedule already and doing different classes, we could maybe just call out different categories. Um, that would be more of that onetoone. I think from a responsibilities standpoint I the recommendations council wants to be informed on the policy that they're making. So for instance I give high deference to the research that you all do um and what's coming to me. Uh from an administrative standpoint, I completely agree that we would want to have some type of enforcability policy because I think we've always done informal enforcement, which is like listen to us or else. And then there's never teeth, right? It's a common conversation that we have. And I think the more that we establish a policy on the administrative side, the clearer line of due process we deliver to the person that we're enforcing against so that if we do actually start to enforce this, which is the intention, that it would be s that we it would be able to survive. It wouldn't just go to a court and it's like this is all over the place. Um, and then as far as the the for lack of better term, human element of like how we handle things, due process is designed for a process in which you are enforcing, not a process that requires you to always enforce. I think there's of course similarly situated people, right? So there's that aspect of it. Um but I

think it still goes down to like a speeding ticket. Officer does not have to give a speeding ticket to every single person that's speeding, right? Um I think code enforcement is a similar thing where there will be flexibility for consideration of circumstance, but the process is needed on uh our administrative side to ensure that when we go into the court that things were kind of met through milestones. So I think taking that lens of an approach of you don't have to have that defined administrative side because that is their responsibility that you deliver over a policy that can sit fit inside of that framework and then it would be on us to manage both the expectation of like what are the words that we're approving and then working with the administration to help set up um that due process side on that side of the house as well.

Okay. So, are there certain things that if it ever did go to civil court on this that we would have to evidence-wise build into the ordinance so that way No. Okay. Just wanted to check my base on that one. Yep. No, you're essentially defining thresholds. Okay. Yep. Just want to make sure. Thank you. Thresholds that can be even evenly administered across the board, not just evenly administered and objectively identified. Yes. Okay. Great. Thank you. I appreciate your perspective on that. Yeah.

Okay. 648.07. Um, that section just needs to be worded better. And 648.99. I think we've u beat that horse pretty badly already. Um,

we're going to substitute a discussion of municipal civil infractions uh for that language. And then going on to the next page, this is where we deal with uh parking and storage of vehicles and equipment in residential areas. This is where we would get into the uh inoperable vehicles and so and uh recreational vehicles. Um on the first page, the only um uh revision that I uh initially wanted to point out is in the first paragraph crossing out the words large or numerous before the um term vehicles because large or numerous is that's a term that is open to interpretation. What's large to one person is minuscule to another person and what's numerous numerous vehicles to one person is not numerous to other people. So I don't think we want those words in the ordinance.

Right. Wouldn't it just be governed by you can't block the street and it's on your property? It's Right. That's what I'm saying. So, like if you're blocking the street, then you have you have numerous vehicles if you can't keep them on your property or something,

right? And that would be covered later in the ordinance. Um on the next page um um under owner um um this section deals with more than just commercial vehicles. So, I think we want to cross out the term commercial. And um and then under item six, recreational vehicles, I uh propose a different definition of recreational vehicles that is much more comprehensive. We'll get to that in a couple of minutes. And then down at the bottom of uh that page um talks about inoperable or unlicensed private passenger cars or vehicles. Uh my question is do you want to allow any time to park outside for maintenance purposes like two or three days, one or two days? or is that something that you want to just confine inside if they have a inoperable vehicle?

I don't know how rare that is in the village for that one. I understand why it's there. Um, but I also understand that there are some people in the village that have classic cars they collect and like to do maintenance on their own and sometimes they get halfway through doing the maintenance and realize they have to order a part that is overseas and it will take 30 days to get here and they can't put the car back together until that part arrives. Well, I haven't again that's okay if it's inside. But that's my point. It's They did it outside because they thought it'd be a day thing because it was a nice day and it got stuck now and it's now covered with a tarp. Well, that would be uh would that

inappropriate based on the current language? Correct. But I'm saying I've seen it once. It was maybe 20 years ago and it was only 15 days. It was not my car. The other thing the other thing that is going to be some notable exceptions is there just in my neighborhood I can think of two homes. One that has a tractor outside uh decoratively another one that has an old manure spreader um out front as a decorative item. What's that? That's a yard of art. Kind of.

I mean, that's how it's being that's how it's being. No, but that's that's other yard around town. That's kind of weird, too. Well, so I mean, that's that's going to be There's alligators, too. And I I I have a 20 foot sculpture that's in my backyard. I I I understand the the uh spirit of the definition being like, okay, nothing blight outside an eyesore and all that, but it's also again like as we've been talking all day, know your neighbors. Yeah. Like,

well, if if you want to allow inoperable vehicles to be worked on for a period of time outside, we should put some language in here. I think that's reasonable. Does this also uh oh repair and maintenance is on the next page but um does this also because I live off Telegraph so regularly cars will break down on telegraph and then pull onto my street and like leave a note on the windshield of hey someone will come back for this does this also apply to that like that happens probably six seven times a year that's on the street that's not it's on the Okay so that does not No man.

I I normally just wait it out, but it happens a lot more than I thought it would. You for number five though on this one, you should tell my neighbors when they have a uh when they have a party and park in my yard. See? Yeah. I don't like number five at all. What? I mean, yeah, the the valet don't care. They just park the cars wherever they can find parking spots, and my yard is one of those.

Oh, so you know, I'm I'm against number five for the opposite reason. Because, for example, in the winter, I live on a hill in the wintertime. We need to park our car somewhere for it to be plowed. We have a perfect fourc car spot at the bottom of my driveway that we park in so they can plow. So, by this definition, we should get fine. But yet, is it a yard? It's my front yard. Okay. But that that's what I'm saying is gravel it up. You want to Hey, listen. You pay for it. I'm in. I've been barking at that tree for 30 years. Um my point is though, it's like no one's complained. Well, and you're moving it. You're not

It's being used every day. It's not for storage. But this specifically says for parking vehicles without license with whether licensed or unlicensed except vehicles with current license not prohibit the temporary parking of vehicles of guests or invitees. Okay. Of the property owners or residents, right? Yeah. My problem is that they're not my my guests. Yeah. But okay, I should have finished reading I got angry before I Well, maybe even just it says guests invite, but maybe include property owners or residents. They can temporary park then because technically you couldn't park your own vehicle there, but someone else could park theirs. Yeah, but there's a right away as well. I I'm just

trespassing when somebody It's not It's in the right way. It's not trespassing. It's in the right way. You got a complete different issue. Yeah. No, it's just, you know, I get to patch it later. That's all. What's the difference between one you're looking for maintenance purposes and four that there is four does it the rest I just wanted to make sure I was yeah on second reading it does yeah so you're allowed to repair for three days outside is 3 days long enough I like a good project yeah three days is not very long I guess throw a tarp over it there's so so few people that's market for something to consider

work on their vehicles, right? It seems pretty rare. It seems like one 2% of people work on their vehicles. I I was bring Michigan. What? We are in Michigan and we do have a lot of people that have enough space in their garage. I mean, I've been working on vehicles since I was a young kid, you know, and I still do, but I feel like like I'm the only person who ever works on a vehicle. I mean, who else works on a vehicle in their yard? I don't know. All right. Good. Good. Good. Because yeah, I would, you know, carry. I changed the transmission on a car a little while ago and yeah, that was out there in my driveway for a couple days. It can be nice to have a few days to do it, you know. All right.

Well, this says you have three days to change that transmission. Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, we'll we'll mark it when we go to call out these ordinances specifically for the next month. We can start looking at those those times. real quick. Um, just based off the conversation, I think one of the considerations that you could do if you run into circumstances like that is to write in the availability of granting a limited a defined but limited exception at the discretion of the administr code enforcement or the administrator. I like it. Good idea. Yeah. Would that be like a burning permit? You call in and you get two weeks of excess. Good call, David. Thank you.

Well, I would just like the random email. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, weighing on a part. Give me three more days. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. Uh next uh next points. Um how we doing on? So I've got three pages here and then I believe these ones are the proposed definitions, right? Yeah. Yeah. First one deals with the abandoned motor vehicle. That is out of the uh Michigan Public Act 300 of 1949. So I think we should probably stick with that in the ordinance.

Well, this is on public property, not private property. I thought was the issue. I mean, if it's a if it's a a public that if it's a vehicle on your property that's not your vehicle, it takes into that. Like what about my neighbor's car has not moved in the last decade and a tree fell on it and smashed in the roof. It's been sitting there for a decade. Well, that's look under inoperable vehicle. Well, I know, but I This is not This is just public. The property owner gives It's It's not, you know, it won't cover all the situations. I guess the junk or scrap motor vehicles, but

uh that's a good point. Uh, it should be expanded to include your own car on Y. Okay, I'll make a note of that. Um, I think a bait is pretty much self-explanatory. Garbage. We've um eliminated the uh can't even remember the uh word

the the term patrrucable. uh and um use some different language to uh to uh describe the type of waste that uh uh is included in the garbage definition. Hazard or hazardous waste. Um we've included a definition of that inoperable vehicle uh since we're dealing with that. subject. I've included a definition of that junk or scrap motor vehicle that also um has a definition um that's related to uh the Michigan motor vehicle code. Then we've included de definition of litter which is garbage, refues or rubbish that is strewn or scattered about which is simplifies the definition. We've included the definition of owner and then um we've simplified the definition of private premises. See what we've got there. it's much more easier to understand. Recreational vehicle uh we've uh included a much more comprehensive definition which includes all the various types of recreational vehicles that are out there these days. Uh we've included a definition of refu residential composting and then on the next page ref rubbish

and um unlicensed or unregistered vehicle. So, um, without going reading through them, I'll let I'll let you go at your convenience to read through those in detail. Do you want to keep that other word in rubbish? The non I can probably eliminate it by Right. You don't want it to say unlicensed, unregistered, or inoperable. No, because it can be operable and still be on licensed or unregistered. Okay. But there's nothing.

Okay. Okay. I guess yeah, my only thought with all there's like lots of different We have inoperable inoperable vehicles, abandoned vehicles, junk or scrap vehicles, unlicensed vehicles. Are we creating a lot of headache by having all the different categories? Do we but just do we want to have one spot to reference definition of vehicles in violation? It includes all of these instead of differentiating between Yeah. I just included all the definitions in one spot here. But yeah, I think

it just how do they apply? It's like when does so this is a nopable vehicle in this situation, but does that I don't I don't know. just just where it appears in the ordinance maybe it'll become more we can do some like nuisance vehicles are defined as abandoned mower vehicles it's like yours is inoperable is not but it's not unregistered so then how does that you know which ones any of the above right but that's what kind of list it all together it's not that maybe unallowed vehicles nuisance vehicles a through whatever But see, yeah. So, grouping it within the grouping of proposed definitions is what you're what you're recommending. We just like put all the vehicle stuff in one spot. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, this is this is the definitions doc um location where we would keep everything in a unified location for definition of nuisance. Anyways, since we're consolidating all nuisance regulations, the definitions will need to be in the same spot. But how we order it to make it more readable or understandable makes sense, right? keeping right even though we're you know we may not start with abandoned vehicles we can start with a bait and then have you know I mean it's alphatiz 100% no but like we could have a category within that but it might be junk scrap or inoperable y

you might be able to throw those together abandoned vehicles could probably be separate and you know unregistered vehicles kind of does fall under um a junk scrap part B any vehicle that's not registered pursuant to the Michigan code, but then you have just unregistered vehicles as being somewhat different. Doesn't mention Michigan code. So just like put those together maybe. I was looking at differently. I was saying, you know, we could have vehicle definitions and then like

Oh, well I think you do that, but I think you could comb like or like but some of them like junker scrap part B kind of covers already what's unlicensed and unregistered vehicles. I guess maybe it doesn't say unlicensed but like is a vehicle license what would unlicensed don't they really mean current just a current license plate so yeah unlicensed unregistered license plate we just make a section are you saying just make a section called definition of vehicles and because it's not a current license plate if it doesn't have registration yes so you don't need a current so like maybe that makes the most sense

which definition includes yard waste Um compost compost is well that would be the very first one be vegetable waste. Would that be garbage? Garbage. See I think it should be changed to like organic and inorganic rather than saying where it comes from. Garbage is garbage. Well, but you would put but you put your like they separate even our garbage out like your yard waste goes somewhere different than your

Well, it's like decay that would be. It's like decayable versus non-deable. Like we got rid of our whatever petrusible. We could just divide it as I said biodegradable. Petrusible and non-petrucible. But what something like that maybe? I don't know. But if you could just maybe put where that goes. So that way we in terms of like what if we have to put Well, could we just say including yard waste? Yeah, just wherever it goes. Yard. Yeah, including organic yard debris.

Do do we care about what the difference between waste and debris is? Do we need to use those terms consistently? Is debris inorganic the result of demolition and waste is something different. Is that but anyway just debris is inorganic. Yeah.

The uniform tree that's debris. Okay. All right. So, Chris, what what do you want um in preparation for next month? Um what is a more meaningful um input that we can provide as a plan commission that would help u move for move things forward for our discussion month? I think I've gotten quite a bit of feedback this evening. So, I think I can uh provide a first draft for next month on uh group one and group two.

Okay. And um I'll probably take a couple of iterations, but I think I can provide something for you next month. Okay. And then we can um fine-tune it in the next several months is weird. Okay. That my my only thought is with item six, storage of buildings and material. Um, I think this was brought up last time that the state of Michigan highly regulates all of these things if you already have a building permit. So like do if we have a building permit, isn't that kind of governed by the state of Michigan? So are we just confusing things by adding more on top of something that's already covered by the state of Michigan? Which one are you talking about?

Number six. So the storage of building materials, that's kind of beyond the scope of what Franklin can do. As long as there's an active building permit, an active building permit, you're going to have building materials on site, right? So just limit it to locations without active building permits if we want to talk about it or we just don't say anything. Um or it's just because building materials are waste. There are sites around the village that had building materials where there's not active permits, right? enforce conditions. But is that would that fall under waste or litter rules? I guess it's not waste. It's not litter. So, it's brand new materials. It's just there.

So, it's just identified as being outside of situations covered by active building permits. I think I think we're concerned about that don't require building permits where you need rael bed. We're concerned about, you know, that kind of stuff. We're concerned about not just new building materials, but old building materials that people have old projects that they have excess building materials that they never dispose of. When does it turn to garbage? How long?

30 days. Yeah. And then it turns into waste. Well, somebody somebody does their roof and has, you know, 19 extra things of shingles that they leave outside for the next 15 years. Please don't do that. They're useless for that. But it's out there. Anyways, I just the balance between what the state allows versus what we want to control versus coming up in a definition when my 2x4 is sat out, how long is it waste versus building material versus

building code does not address building materials in way of being put in place. They don't address that. It doesn't address that. However, it only makes common sense that people are building something and they have a permit. They need to store the material someplace close together. Yeah. We're not we're not interested in in in regulating that.

No. Well, but it's the storage of building materials for indeterminant. But just like just like you had mentioned, we had mentioned earlier with regards to um the working on your vehicle in your driveway for three days. Um I think it makes sense that if you're going to have building material that you don't need to pull a permit for that that after a certain period of time, maybe you should tell the village, hey, you know, I'm I'm building a raised bed. I plan on having it done by the spring. I'm in case I I found a great deal on a bunch of lumber. I'm going to have it in my yard for two weeks and it's not it's not weight rough use or whatever. But if it's if it's there I'm building a a per a raised bed and it's I've been meaning to do it for 10 years then you know

an issue at that point. Yeah. Yeah. So it would make sense to have a separate category not covered by state law or building department that says storage of building materials is right. Yeah. Just a xxx. Yeah. One one thing I didn't see in here is like yard ornaments. You know which house I'm talking about?

There's numerous yards. Well, yeah, but there is one house that their entire front yard and probably their backyard is filled filled with Yeah. I mean, is that I know that the a neighbor bought a very expensive house and wound up literally planting a million arbor just so they wouldn't have to look at it. But I mean, is that something that I mean, wouldn't that be a nuisance? What' you say? Sorry, I don't mean to interrupt. No, go ahead.

But that's part of what this whole process was intended to do. There are a couple of houses in the village of Franklin that are basically hoarder houses. But where does yard art start and stop? Where does junk start and stop? And I think that's the whole the whole reason for this whole process was to get cleaner descriptions of what that is so we know how to address it. So maybe we need to put something in here that specifically addresses ornamental yard objects like there should be no more than 10. Uh that's it.

I know I know it's the signage or it's all over. Yeah. Yeah. in real trouble with well federal regulations also. Y yeah we I mean honestly like that's a it's a real thing. It is it is but um I don't think that we're tackling that necessarily with cuz it it is it is actively being used as art for that home versus being a hoarder situation. Maybe it isn't. I don't know actually the circumstance we're talking about. But anyway, so if you have if you have some proposed ideas or thoughts of how to to define it, um that

have there been complaints about yard art specifically because nowhere in here is yard art mentioned. No, I've got I've never gotten a complaint on the old carriages at the corner of 13. Oh, yeah. Falling apart. Yeah, I've got no complaints of the metal structure that's over at Nottingham and Brier Cliff. Uhu. That's been yard since I started here. Yeah. There's numerous pieces of what I would consider to be yard art that we've got no complaints on.

But I I I did address that wagon a few years ago down at 13. This is

and it the owner finally did because I told myself right to take it for junk because the tires were all falling apart. He finally did do some fixing to it. Okay. And and brought it back to some semblance of a yard. Um that's all discretionary though. That's the thing. It's going to be very hard to address those from an ordinance standpoint on what it is and what it isn't. One quick example, I don't want to blame for this, but I work at Brandon Township and you might have all seen it in the paper where neighbors were fighting with each other. So this guy along the private road took 15 toilets and put them on the road and put flowers in every one of the commodes just to take off the neighbors. I got I I was doing ordinance enforcement up there as well as building planning up there. I wrote the guy a ticket. We went down to court. Finally, we got an injunctive order where at least we got limitation how many toilets

what is the perfect number of toilets but you got to be careful when you deal with some of this enforcement stuff that you're treading on somebody's rights can be difficult it is so

well thank you I appreciate that um little levity for as well as and also I mean I'm sure the other person doesn't think it's very funny. Um and I would probably wouldn't feel this I probably would be a little perturbed if my neighbor did that in retaliation as well. Yeah. But um yeah. Um okay. So I think we have enough direction for going towards next month. Um if you think of something um that you would like uh to point out for Chris, please, you know, um reach out to him and CC myself and and the village uh clerk. Um and um and then and then uh we uh can I get a motion to meet next month on March 18th at 7 p.m.? I'll make that motion.

Okay. And I'll second it. All in favor? I we will adjourn. Oh, I guess it's a motion motion to adjurnn. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yes. Sorry. Sorry, that was what I was trying to do was the German motion.