Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Not listed on the agenda. Do we have anyone that's indicated an indication to speak? Okay, if not, we'll move to the next agenda item. That's coordination of calendars. Our next two meetings will be held on June 22nd and July 13th. If you're not going to be available, of course, please notify Lorianne as soon as possible. Next on our agenda, we'll have a staff report by Purnima.

Thank you, Chair, and good evening, Commissioners. What I have today is P&Z priorities. So at this time of the year, I usually take this opportunity to provide a recap of all the LDR amendments staff has processed over the last year. I also provide updates on items or topics that staff is monitoring and any amendments that we are working on and researching to bring it forward for your consideration, and also ask if you have any relevant items that you would like to add to the list. I had sent this list to you last week. I'd like to go through and then provide a little bit more information on each of those items, just as a recap. The first one was consider implementing applicant notification requirements when a new non-residential development proposed adjacent to existing residential is requesting a compatibility buffer or setback modification. So this LDR amendment was approved by Town Council last year in March. The compatibility buffer and setback section of the town required, always required notifications to all property owners within 200 feet. However, it did not have like a public hearing requirement, so we would send the notices and the residents who were concerned or wanted to raise their concerns to PNC, they would have to speak during the public comments period. So we just added a public hearing requirement so that they still had an opportunity to speak previously. This is making it more clear and when the item is actually open, the residents could come and speak regarding this item. So that was a change we made. Also, when we opened up the section, we were in discussion with engineering and they thought that this is a compatibility buffer which requires a lot of tree planting just to provide buffer between the residential. So they mentioned that in the past, they've seen some portions of the detention area being located within that buffer, so that doesn't leave adequate space for trees to grow in and mature. So we added a standard in there that said, no, that cannot be, compatibility buffer cannot be used as detention, detention area also. It's specifically meant for buffering non-residential developments. In addition, the next LDR update was to codify standards for projection area at entrances of gated subdivision, adopting maximum Kelvins for parking lots, updating fees. It was during the same LDR amendment that we also amended some other sections. So town's basically always continually seeking opportunities to improve what we have in our standards just to provide clarification to help the public understand and apply the regulations. So to support this goal, we clarified the requirement for rejection areas at the entrances of gated residential subdivision to ensure that anybody who wrongly made a turn into the gated subdivision can safely exit without backing into the streets. We already followed this process. We added some illustrations and then provided more clarification regarding this item. And also following the direction from council, we updated lighting ordinance by adopting 3,000 Kelvins light for parking lots, non-residential parking lots. Basically, Kelvins is a measurement of the brightness of light. So 3,000 Kelvin, the lower the Kelvin, it is more warmer tones. The higher the Kelvins, it is a more blue shade of the white. So 3,000 Kelvins means it's warmer shade of light. It's not too bright during the night. and we also updated some fee language in Appendix A with the same amendment. The next one was considered reviewing and updating the town's land development regulations in response to the 89th legislative session. We completed two LDR amendments to address some of the policy changes that was brought forward to address the bills that was basically passed by the legislative session. The first one was related to the smart growth update. So in response to this 2025 legislative session, the changes were made to the composition of the CIAC board. So the new legislative session required 50% of its members to represent real estate development or building industries, and not already serving on any other boards and commissions. So on October 6th, town council adopted, created this committee in compliance with the new rule and appointed members for the SEAC committee. So now SEAC is different from the Smart Growth Commission. And in addition to this, there were some cleanup items to the Smart Growth section of the ordinance. The next LDR update was, again, to address some of these legislative changes. The first one included a change to notice and protest procedures where the state created a definition for a comprehensive zoning change and amended voting procedures for certain types of residential developments that are protested. There was also requirements for posting of notices of public hearing on the website, and we have started incorporating that, and also placement of signage on or near the property to be zoned. Town always had that requirement, so we didn't have to make any changes to on-site notification requirements. The second amendment included the changes to the home occupation section of the code. So a new definition was created by state for no impact home-based businesses. So we had to tweak our ordinances to accommodate the new definition. And also there was state passed regulations regarding noise levels for food establishments, though this was subpart A, which is chapter 34, we still, it was a part of this amendment and we presented this to PNZ as well. So this was the noise regulations. The next priority is continue monitoring electric vehicle ownership and usage numbers within town of Larmont to ensure that any appropriate ordinance updates related to EVs are completed in a timely manner. So I did provide a list on the feedback I received from the commission. I did provide an update to PZ in March of this year. So Nick Ford, our long range planner, he monitors the EV, the latest numbers for all these EV vehicles and charging stations. The next one is considered reviewing and updating landscape ordinance to incorporate the use of bioswales, rain gardens, and other stormwater treatment methods. So this was completed and approved by town council in March of 2026. So this LDR included the changes to parking mitigation to expand stormwater treatment infrastructure and to include options such as bioswales, rain gardens, permeable or porous pavement options, The intent is to reduce stormwater runoff and increase water quality and also to reduce heat island effect. So this was just, I guess, phase one of the implementation, but staff is also working in the background with other departments to bring forward another amendment to bioswales, working with engineering public works in environmental and also parks department to bring forward blue-green infrastructure. Again, the intent would be to help slow down and then clean runoff waters and also to reduce the heat island effect basically. So we'll expand into these biospales and other options for blue-green infrastructure. So that's still, we are still researching on this. and consider reviewing updating parking standards to incorporate shared parking or time-based parking standards in an effort to reduce permeable surface by optimizing parking space usage by allowing different users to utilize the same parking spots at different times of the day based on their varying parking demand patterns. So this is in progress and staff plans to bring forward this amendment during the next PNC meeting on June 22nd. Staff has been working on this amendment for quite some time. And then after our previous long-range planner left to work for a different municipality, this was basically put on hold. And then now we have our new long-range planner. And then this work resumed last year. So as a part of this effort, planning staff has been collecting parking utilization data, including for non-residential developments, including daytime, evening after 6 p.m., weekdays and weekend parking counts so that we can verify and then also establish new shared parking. So we have only seen these with PDs where if they're proposing a PD or a mixed use development, the applicants can bring forward. But in this case, the staff is offering this shared time-based parking ratio as a part of any site plan application which has multiple uses like office, retail, restaurant, so that there's less usage of concrete on any property. So we've collected data for over a year now. We've also collected data regular season and also during the holiday season. And we hope to, we're looking forward to bring forward this amendment. And then the next one is consider providing frequent updates related to possible policy changes that are being considered for the 90th Texas legislative session. Again, like previous or past years, we'll do our best to keep you informed about any bills that may impact our regulations. So we'll keep you informed as soon as we come to know about any new bills. The next one is to continue to review and identify new uses that might warrant inclusion in the town's land development regulations and identify appropriate regulating standards. Based on the inquiries we receive regarding businesses and to keep up with the evolving market trends, We review the definitions. We review any new uses and bring forward amendment. We do a research of our survey cities to see if they have any similar uses and how they define it. So we collect all the data and then we keep monitoring this and then we bring forward these. And along with the parking the the shared parking that we plan to bring forward next pnc meeting that also includes uh addition of some definitions uh in the town's court of ordinances or clarifying some of the existing definitions um so this is the end of my list that i had um so usually if you if pnc has any relevant other information you you want to request or you want staff to monitor or do research, we can continue to do that and then we also pass this along to the town council during the strategic planning session that is going to be held in end of July. So if there's anything that you would like to pass along to the staff, you can do it before the strategic planning session in July.

I have one.

Yes.

These vertical walls where you have the green walls where they're using plants and they make these vertical, and they're really pretty, but I think they have benefits for noise mitigation, beautification, screening, that kind of stuff. I don't know much about them, but I would like to learn a little bit more since we are now seeing more parking structures coming in and stuff like that. I've been reading a little bit about it, and besides the mitigation of the heat island effect and that kind of stuff, just the beautification, making it look nicer, more appealing, potentially whatever degree of air purification we could gain from that, whatever good environmental impacts we could gain from I don't know what the challenges are. I think there's always positives and negatives. I would like to learn a little bit more about that and how we could, if we could incorporate some of those things into our ordinances for new things that are coming along to make the best benefits that we could get for our town and make it pretty at the same time, as much positive effect as we could.

Yeah, sure. We can definitely look into that one. I think the recent example of a site plan that proposed a wall, a green wall, is Cashew Salon. So they had a couple of elevations where they had proposed some shrubs, climbers kind of stuff, and town staff did work with the applicant to find a species that would require less maintenance and would look good throughout the year. We do have one example of that, but we'll definitely do more research on utilizing this on several other possible walls. What type of materials are hardy and don't have like degradation from that and that kind of stuff? In other regulations we have, it may not be those kind of species, but for let's say a dumpster enclosure. So we do have requirements for landscaping in order to to soften the appearance of the walls. So we have wing walls for these warehouse structures to visually screen the truck traffic. So we do require, if there's any wing walls or certain walls like that, we do have a requirement to add some additional live screening so that the appearance of the wall is softened. But that's an excellent suggestion. We can definitely look into that.

Any other suggestions? Thank you, Purnima.

Thank you.

Moving on to item G on the agenda, this consent items. This part of the agenda consists of non-controversial or housekeeping items required by law. We only have one item listed, and that's the minutes from May 11th. Would any commissioner like to entertain a motion?

Also moved. We'll accept the minutes as written.

I second.

We have a motion and a second. Lorraine, please call the roll.

Commissioner Bayek.

Aye.

Commissioner Getty. Aye. Vice Chair Hobbs. Aye. Commissioner Gilmore.

Aye.

Commissioner Jackson. Aye. Commissioner Fitzpatrick. Aye.

And the motion passes. Next item, agenda H. On the agenda is item H. This is regular items. Typically, the commissioner or a commission will make a recommendation to the town council on projects listed in this section of the agenda. If a public hearing is required, it'll be noted on the item caption. If you wish to speak on item H.1, which is a public hearing item and have not already done so, please fill out a green comment card. And we will now open up item H.1 for ZDP 26-0002, Lowe's Outdoor Storage. And presenting is Chuck.

Chuck, people at home are saying they can't hear. I don't know about your microphone. Y'all know my husband watches me.

I think just leaning a little bit closer to the mic and speaking clearly will probably be about as much as we can realistically expect, so we'll go from there.

Yeah, so in terms of the different kinds of goods, grills, lawn chairs, The propane definitely is one of those things that actually needs to be outside. So that's really not necessarily relevant to this particular request. That falls under a different code. Wheelbarrows, tables, lumber, bagged goods. And I'll go through. There's a whole list that I'm going to go through in a second. But essentially, and this is actually a close-up version that shows where the proposed storage areas are in yellow and blue. So the way the town code reads, that all outside storage areas for materials, trash, mechanical equipment, vehicles, and so on, shall be screened by a screen device of sufficient height and subject to the following conditions. Can't use wood. And smaller items measuring less than four feet in height may be screened by either plant material or a wall constructed of or finished with materials that match the main building of the site. So essentially all this outside storage and display, especially storage, has to be by code, would have to be screened by essentially a masonry type wall. So the things that the applicant is asking, and a couple of these I believe may be coming off. I believe that the applicant has stated that a couple of these things, they don't necessarily do or sell, so they might be coming off. That's the hot tubs and spas, they don't sell those. And the vending machines or food vendors, I don't think they're planning on doing that. So the applicant can verify it, but I believe that would come off the list. But the other things include things like building materials, plumbing materials, gardening materials, lawn mowers, grills, and so on, lawn furniture, storage buildings, trailers, demonstration equipment, Examples for projects that have like an area where they bring in a trailer or a van, I guess. I hadn't seen this, but they basically do a home-approved project over a couple of days so that people can see kind of a live demonstration of how they do a project. They wanted to add all-terrain vehicles and utility task vehicles. seasonal sales items, bag materials such as mulch, soil, sand, and gravel. And then they have used appliances that I guess people drop off in the back and those would need to be contained. There's a trailer that you'll see a picture of where people, if they drop off an old appliance, they'll put it inside that trailer and then I guess they take it off and I guess recycle it. I'm not sure what they do from there. Pictures of the site, the garden center. This is the front of the store. You can see they have lawnmowers and pallets in the front. There is, here's that kind of demarcation fencing, I guess, that's temporary. They have grills, lawn chairs behind it. There's a couple of sheds up against the building. And then around the back, looks like a PVC pipe. Here's the trailer, I think, where they put the used appliances. This is that area on the southeast side of the building that has that wall. This is the allowed outside storage area. And then continuing around the back, pallets, just lots and lots of pallets of bagged materials, and around to the side where the garden center is. And this is a planned development district ZPD amendment. It requires a recommendation from you and would go on to town council for final decision. Again, kind of a summary of what they're asking for to allow outside sales, display and storage of materials without screening and allow display and sales of seasonal goods year round instead of temporarily in designated areas. And with that, I'd be happy to stand for questions. The applicant is here, does not have a presentation, but is also here to respond to questions.

I guess one that might come up, I know they do a lot of outside displays now. Now, what would be the difference of this? That's what I was trying to, because I'm not even sure if they use like barrication of anything. They would just put it accessible to anybody that would like to walk up to it.

Yeah, and I'm sure the applicant will want to speak to, in their letter of intent to, they kind of talk about how basically they've been doing this even though it is technically not in compliance with PD-27.

So would there be any variance from that, or would they just want approval for what they're currently doing?

Exactly. They want to get approval for what they're currently doing and make it a part of PD-27. Thank you.

So are those photographs from this location or from another location?

I took those last week at this location.

Chuck, I have a question. I drove around the facility today and in the back of the building on the east side, It's like five pallets deep of gardening materials. The diagram doesn't really account for having those stored there, so I'm just kind of curious as to what's gonna happen with all of that.

They would have to move, if this were to get approved, they would have to move all those pallets and have them fit inside of these yellow boxes, rectangles. Otherwise they would again be out of compliance with the zoning and subject to code enforcement.

Are the yellow boxes currently, they're currently not in compliance?

Right now.

Right now, but that's where stuff is, but we're talking about making that allowed.

Although it's currently. That's right. This is their proposal, is to put everything within these yellow boxes, which would, right now, you're right, there's stuff all the way down the backside.

I drove over there.

So can you tell us how many other retailers follow the same kind of practice or aren't in compliance? And my concern with this, to some degree, particularly when I'm looking at the sets of trailers up there on the far north across that little green space, I would just hate to see this becoming a precedent where other retailers are saying, oh yeah, we've got excess inventory and we want to keep it out permanently outside of the building or the structure and without any kind of screening. Can you tell me what other exceptions like this have we made in the past?

There's one other facility on the south side of town. where they um did come they went through a couple of different pd amendments number one to allow for seasonal sales for christmas they have a tent now for christmas trees um i guess they do pumpkins too but they have a designated area that's been approved and is on the plan for seasonal sales they do have areas along the front of the building they're required to have a demarcation but they do have a couple of there's some areas in the front that allow for outside display sales they're allowed to park and rent I don't know maybe a half a dozen trucks pick up the little box vans they rent out pickup trucks trailers they're supposed to be in a designated area on the parking lot but that they that particular business has gone through a few amendments but Again, they don't, it's not, it wouldn't be the same in terms of the amount of, as a matter of fact, they're coming in, they're going to be requesting a PD minute as well in the not too distant future because their outside storage has also gone beyond what they're allowed.

Is there a, I can't remember what the word is. Is there a classification for this kind of store that does outside sales? Do we have one of those? This isn't just regular retail. Do we have a specific classification as part of the ordinances that would recognize a store or something like a tractor supply or Atwoods or whatever?

It's really kind of accessory to the main use. I don't know if we have a... a main use standalone for outside sales. It's really just accessory to Lowe's. But I can tell you that a lot of these planned development districts for Highlands Ranch, the Highlands where Super Target is, obviously the property that's on the south side of town, there's a pretty consistent a lot of these plan development districts got created around the same time there's pretty there's a lot of consistency in the language as to how they treat outside storage and outside display outside sales and there's a lot of places around florida where it's it's not allowed

So Chuck, you mentioned a couple times, and it's also listed here in the packet, about them trying to make these changes to get into compliance. I don't want to go down a rabbit hole here, but I'm probably going to go down a little bit. How have we allowed this particular vendor to be out of compliance for so long? I'm applauding them for wanting to come and trying to get stuff done so they can be in compliance. What do we do to help ensure that these type of businesses remain in compliance so we have a level playing field for everybody?

Code enforcement has issued several notices over time. I think that there's kind of a cycle. where I believe and again the applicant can speak to this as well but it seems to be that there's turnover and maybe in the store management where the new manager comes in and doesn't realize that they can't do this so it's kind of like it gets I think that there's several times where they have brought things into compliance And then code enforcement's okay with it, but then maybe there's a new turnover and all of a sudden things start kind of getting back out there again and code enforcement goes back out, gives them another notice. We've had a few DRC meetings over time where we've informed, you know, we've gone through this before where we've told them where the process is, this process that they're doing now. But other than that, I mean, it's been an ongoing thing where I think it gets brought in and then it kind of spills back over again. And the applicant can speak to kind of what's going on at the store. I know that it's a very high-producing Lowe's, like maybe one of the highest producers of certain things in the area. I think there's a lot of different kinds of materials now that maybe... There's a large variety of things that maybe didn't used to exist. There's a lot more stuff to sell. But beyond that, I think I should probably just let the applicant speak to it.

I think one of the obvious things we saw was it made plants that needed a lot of sunlight would get that when they display it that way. Probably gets 20 full-day suns in most of that frontage. I mean, there's a practical reason they do that.

i do have one question for our town attorney um because this is private property are there if we allow exceptions so one of the things i saw on the outside is like kind of these cinder block bills that have like wood um beams going between them and that's supporting some of these things that are for sale and so i mean My dad's a structural engineer. That's not the most sturdy thing, like cinder block. So as far as if we allowed some type of exception like that and then somebody got hurt or something, do we have to be careful about that? Because it's private property. That's not going to be on us.

Correct. It wouldn't be on the table. Okay. Because that's safety type of thing I'm considering. Sure. Well, and the PD, the way it's drafted right now, it doesn't regulate that. It just regulates their ability to have outdoor storage. How they choose to do that within your ordinances and your PD is their responsibility. On them.

Because when I was reading it, I'm like, okay, is that what the masonry is supposed to be for? Like something more sturdy, more permanent, you know? Okay. Thank you for that clarification.

Are there any other questions for the staff? If not, are there any questions for the applicant?

Well, actually, I will have a question for staff because I think this is going to come up and just give you a chance to research it. Can you just pull up what we did with the Monarch? Because I thought there was an item out there we had for outdoor storage. One of the things we may want to reference that so we can just have it handy when we get to that discussion. Thanks.

I was trying to recall as well. I think that some of that did involve a permanent wall to help screen a lot of that, and then others was for just temporary or seasonal.

Right. I don't remember exactly what we did and what the requirements were, but it would be a good reference point because it's something we looked at recently.

Yeah, it would be. And that, of course, is one of the line of inquiries here is what kind of a standard are we wanting to establish when it comes to exceptions? And while Purnima's looking for that, are there any questions for the applicant?

I have another question. Maybe Chuck, I don't know, or the applicant can answer it. But the storage areas that are reflected on this diagram, is that going to be enough to accommodate the volume of material that they have around the building? I mean, it was quite substantial. And my concern is that they've been out of compliance. We can approve these storage areas. Is it going to be enough to accommodate all that product? And if it's not, are we just going to be out of compliance again and nothing is going to happen? Because they're going to have management turnover and it's going to be an ongoing issue.

Yeah, as far as... Whether it's enough, that is a question for the applicant. This is their proposal, and they drew these boxes on here, so I'd have to ask them. I mean, I would have to assume it's gonna be adequate, but they would need to answer that.

With that, can we go ahead and have the applicant forward and identify themselves, name and municipality?

Good evening, Planning Commissioners. My name is KK Yao. I live in 2081 Summerside Lane, Prosper, Texas. And today I would like to request your recommendation of approval for these projects. And again, I'm here to answer any questions. So...

I'll go back to my question that I asked of Chuck, and that is are the storage areas that you've indicated on this plan sufficient to store all the material that is surrounding the building?

I would say today, yes, because that is our effort to ensure the store is fully compliant with the current regulations. Obviously, as Mr. Russell indicated, that the store is the number one in the nation in terms of the garden center merchandising. And obviously you can see times and time again in the past that the store have a lot of products, merchandising coming in during the spring season. And again, you know, a lot of the requests here is some of those are permanent around the building, but then some of those on the parking lot are considered temporarily, which means seasonal. It's only happen at certain time and it will go back to normal, completely disappear and gone. for that time period. Okay, thank you.

Thank you. I'm sorry, let me go back to one other thing. Have you removed the vending machines and food vendors and the hot tubs and spas from your request to have those displayed outside?

We do sell the hot tub and the bathtub. and the spa, I would think that those items actually is inside the store, but not typically on the sidewalk. That's typically is not, you know, sales on the sidewalk. I think today we are asking much is that in front of the sidewalk, right?

Okay, what about your request for the vending machines and the food vendors?

Vending machines, we typically don't because all our vending machine is usually in the training facility inside the building. From time to time, we do have some cook machines, drinks machines on the cell floor. but we seldom have the vending machine on the sidewalk in front of the building.

Or food trucks, so you don't intend to have food trucks or food vendors outside of the store.

So I'm not too sure about this store. I can defer to the store manager on that, but I do. I live in Prosper, so I go to store in Frisco, Plano, all these store, typically they have this food truck from time to time, not all the time. Out there for special events for food or something like that I do see that from time to time, but it's not a permanent station forever Okay, thank you And again, you know the sidewalk a lot of times the intention is bring the product closer to the customer We like we like them to see it experience it You know be able to check it out Something like ATV, this is something new that Lowe's is doing. Obviously, if the customer want to order, they have to order it online on the website for the ATV because it's pretty big. But I do experience that some of those store, especially in Plano or Frisco, they have like one or two for displays. And a lot of time, customer will go out there and check it out and see what they are and what sort of functions. And so I thought that, you know, I think Lowe's is doing good things to let customers experience a lot of the nice products, promotional items, things like that. Bring it closer to the customer, easier to see, do price comparison, checking qualities, things like that.

I had a lot of questions as I went through the packet. You are requesting that you have trailers and sheds in those parking spaces that are on the north side of the parking lot along 407. Yes. Which would be the yellow.

The yellow one on the top. Right.

So the trailers, I'm guessing, would be the length of a car? Yes.

Yes, or a little bit smaller. Smaller trailers? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think today, you know, when I checked with the store, currently we are not selling those trailers simply because we are not permitted in the parking lot for that kind of sales. So that's the reason why we are here tonight to making sure that we are able to finalize that and making sure that we are permitted to do what is right for the communities.

Great. Thank you. Thank you.

Do we have any other questions for the applicant? Purnima, were you able to find the reference? Thank you, sir. I think that'll be it.

Thank you.

I have it pulled up here. I'm trying to share the screen. If that doesn't work, I'll come up there and then pull it up.

While we're waiting on that, let's go ahead and move on to public hearing to see if anyone has any public comments. And it appears there is no one who'd like to address this in terms of public hearing. So we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. We'll give Purnima just a minute to be able to answer the earlier inquiry. Oh, there it is.

This is what you were looking for?

That does look like it.

So this was the screening that was approved with Monarch for one of the large tenant retail businesses.

So they had this as screening for their outdoor storage. And then I know that there was another area that they had designated that I don't think had regular screening that was for temporary or seasonal. Is that right? Is that what others recall?

This is the one that's in the exhibit that shows this was, it required a masonry wall at the bottom with wrought iron decorative fences. So this is in the, this is what is in the exhibit.

So this was, I recall this was specifically for storage and stock versus outside sale.

Mm-hmm.

Are there any other questions for staff? If not, let's go ahead and move to deliberation. Thoughts, comments? Concerns?

I feel like, I mean, I've no issue with this, I don't think. I am concerned that it's a little bit limiting. I mean, they're not asking for anything more, so I think that's fine, but I'm just thinking in general of these stores, like a Lowe's and a Home Depot and a Tractor Supply and an Academy and these stores that want to put ATVs out front or bags of mulch or whatever. As a customer, you go there and you sort of expect them to be similar. I go to a Lowe's in Denton or Flower Mound or Corsicana, I know where the mowers are going to be and I go there. I think there's a similar issue if you're a store manager at Lowe's and you fill in for a different store manager at Flower Mound, there's a burden that comes with knowing exactly what you can and can't do in this particular one. I'm trying to think. I don't know of a Lowe's that doesn't have the ability to do this. So I have no issue with it at all. In fact, it makes me think that maybe we should have a use that's specific to this kind of store that's a bit more, that sort of provides for a template for these stores to do what they do. Because it does seem that having to create these exceptions and stuff to do this, if you think about it from the store's perspective, it's certainly not an exception. It's the norm. So that's my opinion on it. I just... I have no issue with it. But I think if they'd have, you know, I can see, like, maybe it's, I would, this is not what we're looking at now. I'm just, you know, expressing myself here. But, like, I'd rather see the adoption of stuff like, you know, these stores can use some portion of their parking spaces as long as it doesn't take them below the, you know, the 20% or whatever. And they have to be demarcated spaces that they would use for seasonal sales. They can use a portion of the perimeter. Maybe it's a ratio of the circumference or something like that that gives them flexibility to move sale around too so they can do merchandising, which is what stores do, so they can sell products. No issue with this. I think it's fine, but it seems very static to me, whereas if I was running the store, I think I might want a bit more flexibility on exactly where items go so I can sell them the best way.

I know this is more of a practical or operational concern, but is the product removed and brought in in the evenings, or is it just left out to protect? It has to have protection, i.e., some of our patrol cars going through, making sure any product that's still left out isn't maimed or touched. So that's one of my concerns. And I don't know if that's been brought out.

Did you want to ask the applicant?

That would be a good question.

Let's go ahead and ask if the applicant could come forward and perhaps answer that question for us.

And I can restate it. The merchandise that's not sold, is it stored outdoors in the same place, or does it have to be removed and brought in to protected surges underneath the property line?

After hours, for example. Correct.

You got all your flowers in front of the floral part. Do you bring them all in in the evening after hours?

So to answer the question, it's really depending on the location of the store. And I would think that Flower Mounds is considered one of the... better locations, if you will, but as compared to some other locations, operation might be slightly different in terms of the design.

We're talking about flower mounds, so we can address that question.

Again, also depending on the products, I know a lot of times for the mower, things like that, lawn mower, they usually change and lock to protect the depth. Again, security camera is another, service that the store has to continue to monitor that and Yeah, I do experience not this particular location other locations that we do have some Situation where at night somebody come and you know do some things bad, but flower months I think is pretty safe so far. It's a good communities and

That's a good question. So the answer to the question, it remains outdoors.

Sorry?

It remains outside the perimeter of this protected area.

Okay. Yes, sir.

All right. Thank you.

Thanks.

I guess part of the concern that I have, while I appreciate that the applicant is wanting to take the right measures to be within the code or what's being allowed by the town, is one of precedence. And I also appreciate what you're saying in terms of Lowe's and Home Depot and stores like that are rather unique in terms of the product they sell and also the scope and size of their retail operations. But if we're making an exception in terms of having permanent outside displays of merchandise, where does that end?

Well, I think we're making an exception for this pd not necessarily because there is no use there aren't there isn't a use for these types of stores i don't think so i think i think the reason i'm not looking at council here like i think the reason we call this an exception is because it's an exception for the pd not an exception right for stores like it in the city correct it's specific to just this pd yeah so So it'd be interesting. I don't know what the other PDs, I don't know what they would call an exception.

Yeah, I guess I'm looking at it in terms of precedent, not so much that what we're deciding on here would be applied everywhere. And I'll be open. Lowe's gets a lot of my business. We're there all the time. So I was rather surprised also that a lot of that is not already pre-approved. The one piece of this that causes me the greatest concern is where they're looking to have permanent Location with the trailers and things like that on the northernmost part away from the facility itself I'm just not certain that that's kind of the visual image that we would want to have the trailers and other types of a facility out there permanently right there next to the green space and along Justin Road. I'm a little less concerned about the items that are up and against the building and I certainly don't have any problem with the seasonal sales designated areas.

I think that's very common practice and it makes a lot of sense.

I'll stop in terms of sharing my concerns there and see what others think.

don't have a problem the seasonal stuff it's very normal i think it's appropriate people want to get their christmas trees and all that stuff i agree with what the applicant stated about having it available to the customer so they can interact with it um i understand i don't know if i'm am i speaking okay um so that doesn't i think the seasonal stuff is makes a lot of sense to me um The part where it was talking about the used appliances and stuff, I definitely want that to stay in the back of the building. Any trailers or things that would be collection vessels for used items and stuff, I think aesthetically that would just be better kept in the back of the building. And then... The masonry wall. So on the north side of the building, when I drove by there today, it does look pretty messy. I mean, it's a lot of stuff out there. It looks like it's just a ton of stuff out there and in the corner, everything like that. However, I'm affected when I hear that it's the number one in the nation. I want our businesses to do well here. I believe that this business is a member of our Chamber of Commerce. Of course we want to support businesses doing well here. I want all of our businesses to do well here. So I'm influenced by, like, wow, that's really cool. We have the number one lows in the nation. Like, apparently they do need to move this volume of product. And I want to be... accommodating to people who are doing large volumes of business and bringing tax revenue into our town. So one question I have, maybe this is for the applicant or maybe not. So when I drove by today on the north side of the building, I don't really, that's kind of screened a little bit because the other businesses that are kind of already there, it's not like you can really see it a lot from Justin Road. But if you're – let's say you're a customer and you're going to park more on the northern side of the parking lot, you can kind of see down that, I don't know, streetway, if you want to call it alleyway, whatever you want to call it. I wonder if there would be a way to just like maybe put something – and I'm not trying to harp on my green vertical walls, but like some kind of like facade that was maybe like six, some kind of not very many feet wide that would just screen that whole alleyway to make it like not, because it does kind of look messy back there. something to just screen that to where the little skinny strip that's being used is just kind of not as viewable. I don't know if that's a happy compromise or something, a suggestion or a thought. And I'm not insisting on that. I don't think it's a hill to die on, but I'm coming up with ideas that make it palatable. And then as far as the trailers and the sheds that would be kind of more facing Justin, Those are for rent or for sale? Could you please tell me a little bit more about what those are? Are they going to be like people are going to be renting them and moving them? Not the sheds, but the trailers. Are they rentable or are they for sale?

The way I understand is that the trailer as well as the shed is mostly for sales. It's not for rental.

I think we talked about something like box trucks or whatever that could be rented. That's not included in any of them.

There are some stores that offer that service, but not that I know on this one because I just simply don't see any rental truck out there.

Okay. So these would be for sale items. So in my head, the reason why a business would want that to be there so people on Justin Road can see it.

Right. So... So just make sure I understand your concern regarding about the alley. Some of the, what contribute the bad looking that you have concern about? What causes the concern that you have on the north side? Are those the?

So when I drove down, that, I don't know what we want to call that, alleyway, roadway.

Yep.

When you start at that corner, the northwest corner. Yeah, when you drive back that way, which I don't think customers should be driving back that way, but when you're coming – let's say you're turning in from Justin Road. A customer is turning in from Justin Road, and that is how I turned in. You can see down there, and it's really congested looking and kind of like messy looking back there. So I wonder if you just put like a little like – vertical green wall or something that just kind of made it look like it wasn't very noticeable back there like some type of screen that was like a vertical wall to just make it look more not to where you can't really see the alleyway that much because whatever depth that is is already being occupied by those pallets it goes from if you go from east to west it's the whole way down so whatever the width is let's just say it's five feet that amount of depth is already occupying that so clearly the emergency vehicles and stuff are not encumbered by it and could pass or else we'd be talking about that right so if you just right in the front like on that corner put like a tower or something that was i'm just spitballing does anybody i don't know if that sounds good anybody else actually we're in deliberation so i'm just throwing out ideas that make it more palatable yes ma'am i'm i'm listening and uh

And a lot of times that corner is actually the critical corner for customers, especially during the off seasons when customers want to pick up some heavy stuff. And that location is rather critical for customer to be able to see.

Oh, that's where they drive up to? Yes.

That's their pickup? Yeah, closest to the gate, because then the fog lift can bring out all your pavers, which is really heavy, and put on top of your vehicle.

Okay, it's good we talked about that. Thank you for that feedback. Thank you. I'm happy to know.

So the sight distance, the clearance is really important.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you for that feedback.

Appreciate it.

Yeah, I have to admit, I've driven there myself to pick up pallets of mulch and such on various occasions. Other comments?

Again, to Commissioner Bayek's question on screening for Monarch, I just wanted to mention that that was what was approved, but we are currently reviewing a PD amendment for Monarch in which the applicant is proposing to expand the outdoor cells and storage section of the ordinance to request something similar to this.

So I agree with some of the comments on here, but I have and I shouldn't say this because, but I have a Home Depot near my house and it's actually the closest one. But they have a set up very similar to what they have here and I've been trying to as I'm going through this envisioning exactly what they have here and how they have it laid out and this is very similar with the setup that they're proposing. do here is what we have out in Roanoke. And the Home Depot also has, you can rent trucks. You can also rent like a backhoe, a ditch witch, all these different things that you can rent. And they're all sitting out there in the parking lot. I mean, just with the type of business, I think it's really just something that we have to accommodate. I wish there was a better way to screen them. The only thing that really kind of concerns me is seasonal, because the term seasonal can go on all year because it's always a season for something else. How long does the season go? So I've been thinking back to times I go visit that other store, how often they actually have stuff out there. And it probably realistically is nine months out of the year that they're using that extra space and three months out of the year they don't. So I'm assuming it's probably pretty something similar here with Lowe's for that seasonal area that they would not necessarily need that space for those three to four months out of the year. So I know some of the optics and how it can actually look may be a little tough. But overall, I think it's important for this business. And as Mr. Hobbs pointed out, I mean, it is just for this PD. So I don't have any issues with this.

I agree with regard to the seasonal. It's going to be 12 months a year. It's not going to be a short-term deal. But again, we want to support the business. But my concern is that is this only going to be used for seasonal or will it end up being used for storage at some point during the two months a year? I also wanted to know, and maybe this is a question for Chuck, what is the depth of the storage areas on the north side and the east side of the building? Is that five feet, 10 feet, 15 feet? Do we know?

They define square footages, but I can't really see a depth on that. I mean, we can figure it out.

I mean, I'm just wondering if there's a restriction as to how deep they can store things.

The defining line, really, on the north is going to be the fire line. You've got 27 feet. You've got a, right here, 27 feet from yellow box to end of pavement. Fire lines are 26 feet. So...

Two yellow boxes really can't overlap at all, right? So right there at the end, we're going to have to kind of make sure that there's that clearance right there.

Right. I'm trying to see if I can pick up the fire line on here.

Like in this picture, it looks like it's 20 feet.

Yeah, they've actually got some pallets that are kind of hanging over, so that's not good. That will have to be corrected. There's not a lot of space on that north side for pallets is what I'm getting at. So I don't, but again, back to your question, I don't know what that dimension is, but we can define it.

And then, Jack, I think sometimes it's temporary, but They unload the trucks, and that's only a certain amount of time that it's blocking. But they still need to have the clearance.

And one other thing, just for clarity, I know you mentioned a concern that what might be a designated for seasonal sales might turn into storage. This particular request specifying that it's just for sales purposes, that there would not be any kind of storage.

And my other concern about that was the precedent issue that you raised, and are other businesses going to want to have sales areas in the middle of their parking lots? That's just the other concern.

That's kind of where Commissioner Hobbs, I think, had a fair point. There is kind of a unique nature to stores like this, and most stores aren't in this line of business with this kind of scope and variety of product and of this size. But

And it sounds like it's going to be coming back before us anyway. This isn't the last time we're going to see this.

Well, maybe the last time that we'll see it for this low. We have a couple of other stores that are somewhat similar in terms of purpose.

And also when this was built, this location was built, this area has grown significantly since this was built. And so we've got to a little bit take into consideration the fact that they've been servicing this area for a very long time. and have been here before this exponential growth that we've had and we're gonna keep having growth. So, you know.

So any other deliberation? And if not, this item is gonna be a recommendation to the town council.

Let me weigh in just briefly. Okay. I don't think it really has to impact our deliberation, but I just intuitively don't like when retailers come in and they've been ignoring ordinances. Now they're trying to get a compliance and we are looking forward to understand that. I had a lot of the same concerns the other commissioners had. The precedent issue, but I do agree that a home and garden center kind of is a unique type of retail and it just makes sense. The bagged items, things like that, it just makes sense where it wouldn't make sense for another kind of retailer. The kind of two issues I have is like some other commissioners Having the utility trailers lined up there on Justin Road right by the green space You know, I'm not sure if I'm on board with that also on the list of Of uses that it was the one and we talked about it briefly earlier vending machines and food vendors I'm not so sure I want to recommend that that be part of this. That would be J and number six, vending machines or food vendors. I haven't really seen a justification for that, and I don't think that necessarily fits with everything else we've been talking about. But other than that, I'm generally in favor.

Yeah, there are a couple of other items you also mentioned probably would not be part of this. So perhaps if a commissioner would like to entertain a motion, we could specifically cite anything that we would not recommend approval of. Let's pull up that slide. Otherwise we would.

You want to pull up that slide? Mm-hmm.

So I think that was the hot tubs and spas as well as vending machines and food vendors. That could be what you would like to make a motion.

Is food vendors really an issue, though? I mean, depending on what you got, because I've seen a food truck or something where somebody come out there, maybe they're having a fundraiser for something and they have a high school band out there making hot dogs or something like that. I've seen those there. And how would that fall into this? Because I don't have an issue with if they're doing something like a Saturday, per se.

Well, I think, and correct me if I'm not interpreting this correctly, this is really a request for things that would be permanent in nature, that would be there regularly, not something that would be a temporary feature every once in a while for a special occasion or something along that line. Am I reading that right?

Correct. Okay.

Yeah, I agree. An occasional vendor coming out with a food truck for a special occasion, but not regular duty or business hours every week. With that, I'll give you a minute and see if any commissioner would like to entertain a motion.

Let's talk about the things that if we did a motion that we would want to specify that would not be a part of the motion.

I would recommend it would be, for instance, a motion to approve with the exception of, and then identify the specific things you would not want to be included.

In this list amount. So I heard people saying... not the hot tubs and spas. I heard people saying the food vendors, the vending machines. I personally am okay with the ATVs and UTVs, you know, People want to buy those. Guys, I mean, we want people buying stuff here and generating revenue. We want the revenue from that kind of stuff.

I would go along with the propane and natural gas with the condition that's on the locking key.

Locking key.

I think that's already required.

And then those used items have to be the appliances or whatever. They really need to be in the back. I don't want... Right, they're in the back now, right? Trailers or vessels that are collecting those things are in the back now, so let's just specify that that stays in the back. So anything that's like used or unsightly or broken looking or whatever is staying out of back there.

So would anyone like to make a motion? Yes, sir.

What are the exceptions? Do we strike the exceptions as before in the motion?

Because I want the ATVs and UTVs. That's great for our sales. We want more sales revenue we get out of this. Great. We love it.

I mean, I know we've talked about the trailers too. I don't have an issue with the trailers either because they sell trailers. And I don't, I mean... They don't have room from inside the store. They've got to put them somewhere where you can go look at them. These aren't big box trucks. These are flatbed trailers where I'm trying to think where else in Flower Mound am I going to go buy a flatbed trailer?

It sounds to me like we have a consensus. And while I'm the chair and can't make the motion myself, if I were to make a motion, It would be that I would recommend to the town council that we approve this with the exception of the hot tubs and spas and vending machines or food vendors being eligible for permanent display. I second. No, I didn't make the motion. That's not my place. I'm just simply suggesting that we have a consensus.

The wording, yeah, you're helping with the wording.

That's it. So if any commissioner would like to entertain a motion, I'm glad to hear that.

Did there be one excuse me sure? one addition to that it sounds like would be to Limit the used appliances and pallets Must be contained within trailers in the on the east side of the building the rear of the building Okay So just so understands as currently written they could put that trailer anywhere but if the trailers closed I

So why does it matter?

I just, sorry. Yeah. I just heard that comment and I just wanted to make, didn't know if you wanted to include that in the motion or not.

So if I might just clarify on that. So the picture that they showed where the layouts of everything were supposed to be is going to be adopted as part of this amendment, and it has them specifically labeled what can go where, and they are currently on the back side of the building. So that restriction is already within this amendment. Okay, cool.

I just want to make sure it stays like that since we are changing the PD because we don't want anything unsightly in the front. Sure. as long as you're not as long as your amendments don't change where they go in this picture the way that they have it laid out is how they're required to place all of their outdoor storage i don't think we're done debating whether or not those trailers are right there displayed the the sheds and the trailers on 407 is there still an objection for that is my right or no

That's the thing I'm still.

Okay, that's what I think.

Yeah, I mean, utility sheds, it seems like there could be somewhere else to put them, but yeah, I'm kind of on the fence on that.

All right, so if somebody wants to do this, I'm going to take a stab at it. and y'all are probably not gonna like me, but I'm gonna make a motion to recommend approval of item H.1. I don't see item H.1. I'm trying to find my thing here as I'm moving around. Item H.1 as presented. Second.

You can let me know who did the second, please. All right, Commissioner Fitzpatrick. Nay. Commissioner Jackson? Aye. Commissioner Gilmore?

Aye.

Vice Chair Hobbs? Aye. Commissioner Getty?

Nay.

Commissioner Beck?

Aye. I think the motion passes.

4-2.

Very good.

Thank you, Commissioners. The time is 7.49. I call this meeting adjourned.