Town Council - Regular Meeting

A lot of people want to come out and look at the presentation.

Okay. I don't even know how many we have online, but you would think with everyone complaining they might come out and Tuesday's on twice. I don't even know my agenda. Going to the agenda. Agenda item two, adoption of agenda. So moved. Second. Motion made second. Is there any discussion? Hearing none. Those in favor of the agenda as presented as signify by saying I. I.

I oppose. N. Agenda is adopted to move on. Agenda item three, approval of minutes. So moved. Second. Motion made seconded. Is there any discussion? Any errors, omissions, or changes to the minutes as presented? Hearing none, those in favor signify by saying I. I.

Oppos? Nay. So approved. Agenda item four, public remarks. Is there anyone present who desires to make public remarks at this time? See no waving hands, we'll move on to agenda item five, presentations. Presentation on grand list 2025 relevant from equality. Thank you, Mr. Chair. You have uh some representatives from our our appraisal firm Equality here. Deborah Cop, our assessor, is in the room. Uh but the folks from Equality are going to give you kind of a rundown of some of the materials uh that you saw in in the packet about the grand list and a little bit about their strategies and perhaps a variety of other things. Uh I'll let them come up and introduce themselves and provide you with that information.

I'll put presentation for you guys. Thank you.

Thank you. Absolutely.

Good evening. Thank you for taking the time today um to cut some time out for the presentation. I'm Paul Kennedy. I'm the supervisor of East Hampton's revaluation. I was in charge of valuing all of the residential properties. Um here tonight to talk about phasing and um also if you had some general questions on the revaluation, the process or what have you, I'd be happy to answer them at the end. I printed out a quick packet um just to show you where we're at where East Hampton is in line with other towns. So if you look at the first graph that we have, right, green is a subject town, East Hampton, that's what went through the revaluation. Blue are the other towns that we've serviced, majority of the other ones that we've serviced this year. Um so you're seeing increases from 35% to 60%, right? with Green East Hampton being at 51%. The two towns to the far right, Waterberry and Torington, those are the towns in the past that we did have to go to phase in with they are at 85 and 90% respectively. So, just to give you an overview, I do not believe East Hampton is in desperate need of a phase in um when you're looking at the other figures here. So, then moving on to the next page. This is just a parcel breakdown for you. So, this shows you how many residential properties there are versus commercial properties. So, out of the uh five, excuse me, out of the town, um 254 of the parcels are commercial and 5,983 are residential. Residential again is seeing a 51% increase and then commercial is seeing a 25% increase.

Then if you flip to the last page, this is the state ratio testings that we must meet. Um, so if it wasn't me doing it, if anybody else did it, they would have to pass these state ratios as well. Um, it keeps us in check. You can't just raise somebody's property because you don't like them. You have to follow these state statutes. So just to give you a quick breakdown um number one the overall median ratio for all property um this is the assessment to sales ratio basically we can be anywhere from 63 to 77% um so Connecticut's assessment ratio 70% with those sales we can be anywhere from 63 to 77 what is the ratio what's the Yeah, absolutely. So, that is the assessment sales ratio. So, for instance, if a house um sold at 100,000, right, and then we had an appraise value of 100,000 on it, we're meeting the sale 100%. 70% be the assessment sales ratio.

So, yeah, but not every house is sold. So, I don't understand. So the reason for this is we base all of the cost books off of sales. So we look at all the sales in the town from 101 2024 to 101 2025 using those sales. They're the current market value of the homes out there. We use them to determine the other cost books. Yeah. Another way of looking at it is if you're looking at sold properties, you can be anywhere from 90% of the value to 110%. We're coming in at around 92% of the sold property. So, we're very conservative is what I'm trying to outline. Yes, sir.

Stupid question, but what if it was a a sale to a family with a gift involved where the sales price is reduced? Do those get uh excluded from your testing or are those included?

Yeah. So, absolutely, we have something called a sales validation, right? So, me and the assessor are looking through all the sales that come in to see if they're valid. For instance, we're looking at say Colonials are selling for 300,000 and then one comes in, it should be 300,000, but it comes in at 200,000. You figure out, okay, it's sold to a family member, it was passed down to a son, etc. So, me and Debbie, dual configuration, looking over it, making sure that the sales are accurate, and we'll get rid of those as well. You know, if they're not valid sales, they won't affect the cost book. Um but moving on down the line it's uh a bit of information but just to tell you some of the parameters that we have. If you look at number three right this is the overall cood for the properties. This is the coefficient of dispersion. So if you're looking at the sales you can have a sale that we're way under and a sale that we're way above. It shows that the data is nice and concise and uniform. So again, we're not just meeting the sales right in the middle. We're looking at the outliers and then the ones on the bottom as well. Um overall PRD, we also met those ratios. Again, this is making sure that undervalued properties or excuse me, lower valued properties are not undervalued in regards to higher valued properties being undervalued either. So it keeps us in line. And then the unsold property test looking at sales. So this makes sure that we don't increase the sales and we're not increasing the unsold or vice versa. It keeps us right in line.

I don't understand that. So if you're looking at the sales, say that the sales had a 20% increase, right, of just the sales. So there's 30 sales free. Um you look at uh 20% increase, right? And then you look at all the unsold properties and the unsold properties only maybe went up 5%. This shows us that something's off. You know, we're just chasing the sale. Properties that were for sale but didn't sell.

Exactly. Yeah. So, well, not so much. If if you take a look at it, we set the cost books from the sales, right? So, we're increasing the values on those sales to meet the sales for the current market. the properties that haven't sold that were not listed. All the other properties we have to make sure that they're increasing in line with the sales. This is just a measurement of that. So what is this unsold property test? What is the ratio? The ratio is 1.04. And then

what is the numerator? what is the denominator? So, you take a look at the increase in sales, right, as a percentage. So, if you're looking at properties that have sold, they're going up 20%. Then you take a look at all the other properties in town that haven't sold, say they're only going up 10%. You would take the 20% increase from the sales, divided by the 10%. Does that make sense? Is the 10% that you're talking about the value that you put on them? Yes. Okay. So, it's a measurement of uh actual sales and the increase in those prices against the appraised price that you put on a property that doesn't sell. Exactly. Y

and it's changed. Thank you. Appreciate that. Was a lot of information. Um more of an introduction. I know the real topic of today is to discuss phasing if it's needed or not. That's where I would turn you over to my director. But before I do, um, what questions do you have for what can I clarify? Absolutely.

Isn't the point of the revaluation to equalize the taxes that people are paying by what I mean by that is if someone uh if our 50% and someone's house went up 70%. That means they'd probably be underpaying their taxes for the last over the last period of years. Meanwhile, someone had a 40% increase and an average of 50. They've probably been overpaying their taxes for the last few years. And it's a way to equal out the the the tax burden.

It is an equalization. Um you talk about the previous year. So what it does is it takes a snapshot of the market in that time, right? So, um, let's say that the sales, again, to your point, um, they were at 40%, when the median increase at 50%. They were lower up until that year. But as far as the past 5 years where the revaluation cycle takes place, I can't speak to that, but that's exactly what it is. It's an equalization. We take a snapshot of the sales from 1012024 to 101 2022 and we determine the market value based off those sales. So, we're just trying to apply market value to all the properties throughout town.

So, if I was paying less taxes and I got a larger increase now, that would be bringing my property tax up to the fair value of what I should be paying at this point in time. Correct? Yes. And conversely, if my property value was high and came down and my property property taxes came down would again represent the current time. Exactly.

So why would we even consider a phase in if it's equalizing out what we've been paying or are going to pay? I I I don't even understand this whole concept of phase in because it's kind of like a redistribution of your property taxes. and and I I I'm failing to see how this is equitable to probably not an answer that he can give because that's a policy question that you all have to answer. So, I'm going to save him and tell him he shouldn't answer that. Thank you, sir. Um, but yeah, absolutely. Um, are there any other questions I can answer? No,

please. So you've divided up all the property in East Hampton into groups. How many groups is that?

So when you refer to it as groups, um there's all the sales, all the parcels, right? There's the commercial property in East Hampton, right? There's the residential property in East Hampton and then there's the vacant land piece and then there's also condos which falls under residential. Um but then diving into the residential, right? So I keep referring back to the sales. Um for instance, it's only going up 20% and a colonial that's going up 50%. And you'll say, well, why? You know, the market is showing that 50%. We take a look at each of those sales by design style. That makes sense. So maybe the market is showing that capes are only going up 20% and that colonials have an average increase of 50.

So you're saying that all capes were in one group and all Yeah. So

that's what I'm asking. How many different groups are there? I would have to review the design styles and get over you, but how many different design styles that there are in town? That would be the breakup of the group. So, you have colonial, cape, ranch, raised ranch, etc., etc. But I could get you that list via email. I just don't have it present with me right now. Well, with the sales assessment data and ratio, do you submit that to the state for their OPM's purposes of We submit it to Debbie and then Debbie submits it to the state. Yep.

And that the sales assessment ratios has been a big factor in the ECS grant. Correct. That I'm not too familiar with. Um, I would have to that goes back to the mid 1980s questions regarding reevaluation anymore. So, basically we have to wait till we get to discussion phase in order to get to discussion. Oh, okay. Perfect.

Thank you so much for your time. I greatly appreciate it. I will turn it over to my director, Steve Caps. Thank you.

No. Good evening, members of the town council. Mr. your town manager and taxpayers watching remotely. I was asked to come tonight to in addition to listening to Paul describe the the basics of the reevaluation which uh he did a fine job. Um just if I'm going to add my two cents as his graph shows um values have increased over the last 5 years and what we have seen with all of our clients. East Hampton fell pretty much right in the middle. Um that's not to minimize the effects of the increase but I choose to take the high road and arguably most people's most valuable asset is their home. So, I would think that most people would be very, very, very pleased that their home is worth more than the last time it was valued, which was 5 years ago.

Only on the day you sell.

Unfortunately, there was a very wise man many many many years ago that decided to tie that to property taxes and that's the reason why a lot of people get upset. So with that said, it appears that the average increase for property here in East Hampton was approximately 50%. So what do we do? Well, there's a number of options you could do. You could bite the bullet. The grand list has been established with no uh changes or special considerations based on that grand list. It'll be placed against the budget that the town comes up with which will determine the mill rate and at that point only at that point will the results of the revaluation individually be known. We could all talk what if, what if, but until the budget is finalized and a mill rate is determined, it's still what if. So that's step number one. They're going to have to determine a budget. Now a 50% increase if you stop and think about that the grand list before we did the revaluation was set at a level in which your current mill rate I believe was 27.75

no 39 9 9

Oh, I'm sorry. The wrong wrong side. Yep. 39. Correct. So what I'm simply trying to say is if the total value total value of all property in a town increases the amount of property available to be taxed increases. the rate at what individual property owners get taxed has to come down because the town still needs roughly the same amount of money to operate. Typically, you could figure that out, unrealistic as it may seem, if you pulled out last year's real estate values and plugged in the revaluation figure on the existing budget, that would give you what we call ground zero. And anything above that would be a budgetary item. Up to that point would be revaluation. But again, up to this point, we're still talking equity. As the gentleman on the end mentioned, we've determined the values that we think have equalized everybody's value. So now the decision that this town has to make is, is that equalization satisfactory to the taxpayers? because ultimately you folks are the ones that are going to be paying this. There are a number of ways of dealing with revaluation relief is what I call it. What I'm going to be talking about tonight is one of them. It's called the phase in. Now, in addition to being the director of equality, I'm also a certified Connecticut municipal assessor and I have been for the last 46 years. the majority of which 31 years were spent in the town of Windsor

and I had the unpleasant task of dealing with basin not once but twice. What I'm going to attempt to do is give you positives and the not so positive aspects. But I agree with the town manure 100%. Just because I'm up here speaking doesn't make something right or wrong. Ultimately this is a policy decision which you folks have to make. You know in summary what a phase in does is basically defers some of the increase that property values have experienced as a result of the revaluation. How long of a deferment depends upon the length of the phasing. Currently the statutes allow a phase in of a revaluation to be dragged out if you will no more than no more than five years.

Re and don't we reval every five years? That is correct. So as soon as the phase in is over you'd be time to do another revaluation. That would be

now the concept of a phase in is very simple. You just take the amount of the increase to each one of your properties. And you folks would have that information at home, I'm sure. You take that increase and you divide it by the number of years that the town wishes to phase this thing in. As an example, if your value went up $100,000 and they chose to go to the maximum level, which is five years, it would be $20,000 each year for the next 5 years, but decreases are not phased in.

That is absolutely correct. Decreases are not. This is simply an increase. So if the revaluation was done and horribly if in fact a home was destroyed for a number of reasons by fire or whatever if it is wiped out the following year it goes down to a vacant lot and it's not phased in. Phase in is just for increases as a result of a revaluation not decreases. Yes sir. So you said if your property goes up 100,000 that was an example.

Yep. So yeah, 20,000 a year, but what if that was towns at 50%. And that 100,000 represents your property increase at 30%. Shouldn't you be getting a decrease in your property tax? Statistics go out the window. This is actual. You make your actual increase paying more property taxes, continue to pay more property taxes. I can't I can't say that.

Would that be the effect? Well, let me give you an absurd example. If somehow this board decides somehow someway that there's going to be no increase in the budget for the next year, those property taxes are actually going to go down. Is that possible? It's possible. Is it probable? No. But there are ways of offsetting a property tax increase. Certainly. But it's not percentages anymore. It's actual. So when you go home and you look at your notice that you received from the town, what the new assessment was, what the old assessment was, you get that difference. The max you can phase it in is 5 years. The minimum is two years. But so everyone that's in the bottom half is going to be penalized. If they're under the average, they're going to still get a tax increase. Um,

correct.

I would dare say that there would be a lot of people, even if in fact they're average at 50%, that might be experiencing a tax increase. See, I think it's very very difficult, and I'm not trying to cop out, but we need to separate tax increase from valuation. Our company was was hired to determine the value of everybody's property. Unfortunately, you folks as a result of our work now have to determine based upon the needs of this community what the rate is going to be that is going to result in attacks. And at that point, then you'll have your answer. Up until that point, it's all statistical. Yes, sir. Um yeah, I I think um Ted what Ted is referring to is the fact that half of the people half of the taxpayers got more than 50 50% or more half got 50% or less. So if we don't do a phase in the if if you do do a phase, those people who had less than 50% have more tax than they would if we didn't phase it.

That is correct. That is my point right there. There's an example what they gave us. It's just a matter of exactly that. It is just a matter of the length of time it's going to take to equalize truly equalize the valuations. And again, I see, forgive me, I'm I'm not trying to avoid it. We were hired to determine the equitable valuations. When you factor in the budget, that's when you're going to come up with taxes. However, you are correct. Basically, what phase in will do is it will delay equalization by the length of time that you adopt it.

And if we extend it by five years, we're up to our next reval. So, what is the point of doing a reval if we're going to just arbitrarily put a number on everyone's taxes? Is there a point in doing a rebal at that point and spending, I don't know, a couple hundred thousand dollars on a rebal if we're not going to use the information from the rebell? Well, I think that gets to the state. It's a law. Unfortunately, every municipality has to do a rebalance. But going to negate what the whole purpose of it is just seems ludicrous.

Let me put it in a different fashion just to give you I mean five years, yes, it's the max, but it it doesn't truly make a lot of sense. Many of the jurisdictions that we have done and completed revaluations for and even others that we haven't done revals but uh other companies have have gone phasing. Tom and I live in West Hartford has adopted a phase in but they did a quick and dirty two years half of the increase this year the other half next year. It gave the taxpayers a bit of a relief without extending it more time than you had to. Did it still skew the equalization? Yes, it did. But specifically, if you're on the side that is paying a lot more taxes, you did appreciate even a one-year skill.

You're talking about taxpayers. Only half of the taxpayers have any interest in a face. The other half don't want to face it. Correct. Right. Well, so I mean in this conversation I would have to agree with that. Sure. How many communities or towns have enacted a phase in last since the last revaluation with the last revaluation? Uh since the last reval East Hampton, you're talking about it. Derby, I've got a scheduled meeting with them. How many have actually done it? So far none. And is that so far? Not and in fact the four years

for that the same reason we're having you here to get this out on the table and see that it may not make a whole lot of sense. I'm sorry. I I don't want to avoid that answer. It's a policy to say thanks. Well, why does it ever make sense to do with a I can't understand how it ever looks.

I I don't get it. Um, let me give you an example from the city of Torington. As Paul had mentioned, that was one of the towns we have done and for a variety of reasons. It's a very affordable town. So many, many, many people moved there. The sales prices just increased dramatically. When the dust settled, the valuation of the total property increased roughly 85%. That was a huge, huge increase. Why would they have done it? They simply did a 2-year. They wanted to address those half of the people that didn't experience a tax increase in that Torington's was 20% didn't. 80% did. What do you mean? What

80% of the property values in Torington increased. Yeah. But 50% were above the average. 50% were above. I agree. No,

I agree. Just a couple a couple of other points to consider again seeing that you folks are responsible to coming up with the annual budget. Let's go back to the absurd example of five years. The first year, yes, you're at the lowest possible increase based upon say a 100% increase 20%. And then the second year would be 40, third year 60, fourth year 80 until the final year is in the fifth year. And as a gentleman said, then you're ready for another reevaluation. You never escape it. The problem with that length of time after the first year you decided you year one assessment goes only 20% of that increase is implemented before year two gets implemented before $1 is added to the previous year's budget taxes are going up. Year number three, before one more dollar is added to that year's budget, taxes are going up. Where I'm going with this is what started out and this is what happened in the town that I was in Windsor. What started out to be a tax relief option, even the taxpayers after they adopted a 5-year phase in Windsor, and after year number three, the second time around they had had it, they still clung to a town meeting form of government in addition to having a town council. At the town meeting, they voted to stop the phasing after three years. because there was continuous tax increases even before $1 is added to the budget.

The taxes are determined by the budget that the town and the correct spend. So the this phase in doesn't have anything to do with the total but I argue different. Yes, it does have everything. It has a it has tell them that tell them what happens right we're talk you're talking averages this is actuality in actuality every year that I have a tax increase built in you or you might have a tax decrease built in exactly and so that's the as I've said to you before that is the only reason to talk about this and so when you're saying there's a tax increase built in That's that's true.

Would you agree that it's only for people who are above in this case? That is correct. That is correct. I misspoke. That is correct. Half of this community before a dollar is added is going to have a a tax increase. That is correct. And the other half will have a tax decrease. Correct. Because they already overpaid the year before. Because they already overpaid. Whereas in a perfect world, you wouldn't do a phase in. You accept the revaluation as expected and it completely eliminates what we think are all the inequities in valuation.

That's pretty good. How does the impact of uh valuation we're going to call it a shift in taxes between residential and and commercial

in this community? I believe Paul had indicated the shift is going to be to residential because the increase to commercial was was some but not as substantial as residential. But that also could benefit the community if if the taxes aren't going up as much. Your rents, you know, you don't have the automatic increase that you know is on the commercial that might actually attract some commercial to to the town. A few other minor issues that at least you should be aware of. Um I don't know at what level East Hampton still gets state aid or state funding. Uh certainly we not enough.

Yeah, we all know that. I mean in the past many many years they just stopped paying and municipalities is faced with yet another unfunded mandate. But the one that I do know is still out there is property uh reimbursement on stateowned property. If you adopt phas in, chances are that that reimbursement is probably going to be reduced a bit because they're going to require the phase in value, which is something below what we came up with without phase in to be reported and thus the amount that the assessed value of that stateowned property is less with a phase in than it would be at full value. But like most communities, the amount of state aid is is just whittleled down to embarrassingly nothing.

So in this chart, it has commercial versus residential. Yep. Is that number of parcels or is that dollars? It's dollars. What? Dollars. It's dollars, wasn't it? No, it's I think it's it's got to be number of parcels. Number 254 parcels. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that was a percentage of income. Yeah, I think it's parcels. My rough calculation is that commercial should be about 8%. Of just the parcels. Yeah, it says 254 parcels. I'm sorry. You meant the number of I forgive me. But the valuation. Do we know what the dollars are as far as commercial increases versus res?

No. the dollars uh the value of our commercial real estate versus the dollar the value of our residential I think is what he's asking. I can get you that. I got it right here. My rough calculation was 88%. Your full assessments before any exemptions for residential was roughly 1.4 billion dollars. Uh commercial would have been 73 17 10 80 96 million 96 million. Yeah.

Versus 1.4 billion. That's the valuation difference.

Thank you. Lastly, just so um before I open this up to questions, in addition to everything else, basin is an extremely difficult process for the public to understand. Everything that I explained, whatever that difference is, gets deferred by the number of years you're planning on on accepting this if you do. But you don't notice it until you get your tax bill because the way we do it is it's applied through an exemption. So in answer to your question, the equity originally is still there. What destroys it is the exemption for phasing that reduces it based upon whatever percentage you choose to to accept. But the value that we did come up with will still be there on your tax bill. If you choose to go phase in, it'll be reduced by a percentage as an exemption to which is called phasing. Very very difficult. I I realize that. But is it any questions?

Do you present phasing to every town that you do this for? No, only if they requ Why are you doing it here? Uh there was a request that you folks wanted to discuss the possibility of doing phases. Oh, okay. Just to get an understanding, we um No, we we're not a big fan of it. Again, that's a policy decision. Our duties with you folks ended when we came up with the valuation. And now you take that valuation and sometimes you probably have a more difficult job than we did. Thank you. Anyone else

further questions?

There are a couple of other um methods to assist the public in getting through this difficult process. um the last session of the legislature up in Hartford, they come up with, again, I don't know enough about it, but it's known as a homestead exemption. I know the town of New Milford was spearheading this effort, and gives a little bit more flexibility to municipalities to allow some type of relief in a form of an exemption. Um, but it's something that the town basically has to eat because it's no different than any other exemption. They just apply it. Um, also it's my understanding that, and this one I think is probably a a good one, and I would strongly suggest it. It's been brought to my attention that East Hampton is one of quite a few communities that has a local elderly tax relief program that mirrors the state. Well, certainly those folks that are on that program are probably some of the most needed people that need relief. So, a quick way of of helping certainly the ones that need the most relief and getting the most bang for your buck would be the benefits that you offer for that local program to increase it for those folks. Everything stays the same. They still have to apply. It's still income based based upon the local income requirements that you have, but certainly they are the ones that perhaps need it the most. And a quick way of identifying who those are and like I said, getting the most bang for your buck would be to somehow figure out a way in your budget process to increase the benefits for those that are on that local elderly program.

We also have another tax uh where they can freeze their taxes and have it be lean to their property for later on in sale to to reduce to help out the the seniors. So we we we do have other local options as well. Uh we just find that most people don't like to use them because they're trying to pass it on to their heirs without but that's not really the tax. And I just simply mention that because again that's a quick way of at least identifying who needs the most help and by increasing their benefits would be a quick way of doing it. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.

Something I said I learned something. Yes. that a little bit. I'm just going to follow up with one other question. You mentioned that um New Milford is the only town that has looked at or is looking at or has enacted a homestead.

Yes, sir. isn't is primarily the reason for that because there are so many second homes there and vacation homes and that tends to be the type of properties. I look at Florida as an example. They get give yearround citizens a homestead exemption and all the tourists and vacationers pay the bulk of the tax. I think they were modeling it off Florida. So I don't know enough about it. I know it's a brand new program, but I know that Newbert has spent an awful lot of time and resources and I believe they are planning on implementing.

Is an old lime also looking into it because of their uh they have a lot of seasonal as well. I I thought that they were also listening into it because because again same reason that they they the tax the seasonal or the the rental properties uh more than the residents. Unfortunately, I don't think we have quite the uh draw the the draw for uh you know uh that in East Hampton that some of the shoreline communities have. So I don't know by putting a homestead how that would really work in our town. I don't think it would. Can I add one more question?

In the I'm sorry. Um, in the phase in, would a new house or a remodeled house be phased into? Yes, sir. So, in other words, I have a new house. It's worth a million. The lot was worth 50,000. And I that's extended for two, three, four, five years.

It's not that easy. Uh unfortunately the folks in the assessor's office workload has just doubled its effects to go phasing because they are set up the the cost tables before the revaluation. They have to determine the value of a new home before the revaluation was done. Then they determine the valuation a second time with a revaluation figure. Now you've got a before and after. You do what I've told most of you to check when you get home. You have your new assessment, your old assessment. That difference then gets phased in over however many years you choose to approve it. But yes, the assessor's workload is doubled because now they have to do whatever change in value in fact in their current revaluation file that was just completed. and we step them up to file prior to evaluation so they can get their old number.

Yeah. My my point was that you build a new home and it clearly is this higher value and in phase in it the difference is dramatic.

Yeah. But would it be accurate to say that we would take all of the I'll call it old value or the 2024 grand list value of all of the improvement and that goes on the grand list right now and then the any phase in decision gets made for the incremental change in the 25 value of that house. Right? So we take all of the construction value but we do it on the grand list of 24 value and then we phase in the new property cards the 25 numbers on the property cards before you do the reval

before you calculate the phase in number and that's only an issue that particular thing is only an issue for I mean we have grand list values for my house your house things that have been existence that particular issue only becomes an issue when you have new construction like that, you have to then calculate if it finished on September 30th of 25, you value it as if it existed on 10124 and put a value on it using those metrics. Okay?

And then that goes on the grand list right away. And then the incremental change to move that value up to 10125 is what you would phase in if in fact you did phase it in. Yeah, I don't disagree with his statement. It is work for the assessor's office. But we're up to the challenge. That true for however many years you extend it. You want to go the full five years in year number four. If that house is built, they still have to determine the values as if it was there four years prior. come up with a new value and that that difference is what gets phased in. Okay. It only gets phased in in the last year. So if they do it four years later

gentlemen, thank you for coming out this evening. We were going to have the uh meeting last night, but thank you. Moving on the agenda unless anybody has any further just comments regarding property tax kills in right now. No, we got to get this section. I'm with the agenda. Yeah, we still have to get to that point in the agenda. All right, let's move quick. Agenda item six, bids and contracts. You have none of those this evening.

Agenda item seven, resolutions, ordinances, policies, and proclamations. town meeting resolution for 292 West High Street.

Uh this is followup to an action you took a few weeks ago uh at which point uh the council agreed to uh and approved a purchase and sale agreement for 292 West M West High Street rather right in front of the vacant parcel in front of the uh wastewater treatment plant. uh that based on that approval that was taken to the board of finance for them to review. Uh and they uh did approve an a resolution similar to this one uh that moves forward for your consideration uh and uh consideration of approval for the resolution that the town meeting would consider and then calling the town meeting. Uh, as a reminder, this is the purchase of the vacant parcel, as I said, in front of the wastewater plant for $100,000. The authorization is for $105,000 uh to allow for some other additional expenses, closing expenses and the like uh to be used uh from or to be expended rather from funds uh out of the joint facilities uh capital fund appropriated from there. uh and then uh authorizing uh that appropriation and the acquisition. And then the last item is uh sort of a reservation of rights for the town. Uh if in the future it's determined through the normal process that we wanted to refi refund ourselves and finance that through long-term borrowing, we could do that. But it would go through the same process back to the board of finance, back through the town council to a town meeting and that sort of thing. So, uh, but that's just a reservation of rights so that we don't lose that option if we ever want to exercise it, uh, within the confines of the law. So, that's what you have in front of you, a resolution of the town council establishing, uh, the resolution for a town meeting, calling for a town meeting, which we have proposed as uh, 6:00 on the 10th of March.

Move this resolution. Second. Resolution paid and seconded. Is there any discussion regarding that? If not, those in favor of the resolution send it to town meeting, please signify by saying I. I oppose. Nay. N. One. Nay. One absent. Thank you. Agenda item eight, continue business, subcommittee reports and updates. Are there any reports? None for me.

I'll just say again, POCD survey. Please take the survey. We have gotten responses for it going very well. There still will be um a couple more focus sections on open space and agriculture. Um but please get those surveys done. Councilman Nodak wanted to report on the fire steering committee. He was going to do it somehow from the plane, but I guess that didn't come in. So, he didn't give me any uh insight on this. So, I can't fill you in besides I know we have a meeting. I believe it's on Monday. I'm planning on mentioning it in my town manager's report.

There you go. So, Mr. Cox is going to help us on this. So, if there's no other subcommittee reports, we'll move on to agenda item nine, new business. A discussion and possible action on acceptance of right of way on Wilks Road. Uh, thank you. This is a short item u sort of proforma. the uh owners of the property at uh the corner basically of Wilts Road and 151 uh have gotten approval from the land use department and the planning and zoning commission to subdivide their land. As part of that action, we're asked they were asked to uh basically donate a portion of their property that sticks out into the right of way uh to the right ofway so that we have a full width rightway in front of their property uh and it is a clean line. So they have agreed to do that and have uh provided that information and deeded that land to the town. The purpose of this meeting is to officially record that as right of way and incorporate it into the adjacent Wils Road.

Motion to accept. Second. I do have a question. So um has this gone to the board of finance? No, usually rights of way consideration of land that's coming in as a donation for right of way hasn't gone to the board of finance ever. Well, it did when I was on board of finance. That's why I was wondering because it comes off the propertyy's now coming off the tax role and wouldn't that be a board of finance to weigh in and I know that I know our charter says that they have to weigh in at the purchase of land, but this is also removing um property from the tax world. I was just wondering why or didn't

we've not done that and when there have been subdivisions that have approved by the planning and zoning commission in my tenure and before that as far as I know it had not gone to plan to board of finance for any consideration as it was a land use decision related to rightway being contributed to the town where the net positive one could argue is in favor of the town where you have subdivided land that has more, you know, value is higher than the parts or

in the board of finance. It says we're supposed to talk about purchase of land and even though it's not a purchase, it's coming off the tax world. So, I think it's would be appropriate for them to weigh in whether whether or not it's appropriate. That's all. And I know what did happen in the past. Okay. Question question chat. No, no. I'm just saying we should vote. Oh, no. Question. Follow question. Is there any further discussion before we call the question? Hearing none. Those in favor of the resolute. Not yet.

No. That would have been a public comment earlier in the meeting. Uh I think it's zoning just different but it's on an agenda item speak to it at the time. Okay. Would like would the chair like to make an exception for and let the gentleman speak since he's our only one in the audience? I have no problem. I have no problem. Sir, if you'd like to make a comment. It's more questions than comments. And again, my apologies. Planning and zoning is adamant that you speak at the time it's an agenda item. You only speak at the beginning if it's outside of the agenda. So, we

we typically do not engage in debate or qu answering questions specifically from public comments. Okay. At that juncture at any time. Okay. So, just getting used to the lay of the land here. Um well, I guess you don't have to answer this then, but I guess my question is um you know, I attend and have been attending quite a few planning and zoning meetings. Um you mind identifying?

Of course. Yeah. Ryan McCormack, 452 Mudus Road. So, I'm two properties over, you know, from the the area in question. Um the land has been sold to a builder. And as much as we've been involved with planning and zoning and some of the decisions made, there's still some unknowns as to whether the driveways would be going into Wilks Road or from Modus Road. And I guess my question is more so the fact that for anyone that has familiarity with Wilks Road, it's very much a corner case in the town of East Hampton. It's majority of this land is either owned by the state or it's shephered by the Middle Sex Land Trust. We've now through another yes by our planning and zoning approved building. And my question is is if you look at that little sliver of land that's being referenced here, doesn't really make sense to me as to why this is even being approved. Unless I guess my question is is has there been communication between the builder who just bought the land and our town to potentially make changes to Wilks Road to benefit this um at the cost of the taxpayer? And I guess that's more so what my question is is it's just such a little sliver of land. It just doesn't seem to make sense unless there potentially have been conversations that the taxpayers aren't pretty to in terms of making changes to yet another watershed in this beautiful town that we just seem to be developing on top of. Um, I live again right in the immediate area, pretty much the distance back from where these properties will be. And everything I do impacts that wershed. If I fertilize, it's going to spill down to the Pine Brook. These homes ultimately are connected

directly to that watershed. And I don't quite understand the why behind this. I think we just kind of broadrushed this being given why. And if anyone can answer that, it would it would benefit me because if you look at it, it's it it's skinny and the area of of Wilks is one way and now we're asking to widen it. Why would that be for a future decision to make that a two-way? Doesn't make sense. I don't know if I have the answer, but I'm looking at the map here that has provided us and it looks to me as it's just equalizing the the dimension of the road, the width of the road and by give

Yeah. So there's no commitments or conversations made between the town and the builder to potentially make changes to that area. Not that I'm aware of, but maybe the town manager that would be a building I mean that would have been planning and zoning upon the approval. I would guess I mean that would you're exactly right. That would have been a planning and zoning conversation that has nothing to do with this.

I'm not aware of it has not been brought to my attention that there's any change to the roadway that is within the right of way. There's not been as far as I know any discussion about changes to that roadway. Uh it is only a matter of the land on which the roadway sits and evening that uh if you will evening that line out and um establishing that we have a full width of rightway there. That's all I know at this point. I know what you're talking I mean the roads

just near because it's one way it just it seems like I haven't attended the meetings and there hasn't been conversation around it doesn't make sense. Maybe maybe there's been conversations that is this done for his open space. Is this been is this part of his open space? Is that why he got the subdivision as part of his open space? Open space was donated back to work itself. Okay. Again, that's why I didn't understand that's this is different. This is up on the top of the hill near across from H

when you first go down on the right hand side. So, uh um so as soon as you turn in that that lovely turn that it is in the dirt road, it's just a sliver um that goes down to the brown house. The first house is the brown house I think on on the right hand side. Yeah, it's like I don't know in the notes prior to the meeting I reviewed all about the kids with the kids. They're always outside pl. All right. All right. So,

the issue is voting on resolution to accept the parcel right ofway on Wilks Road. Without further discussion, those in favor signify by saying I. I. Nay. Adopted. Agenda item nine B, discussion and possible action on grand list phasing or other tax relief options. Can I make a motion that we don't phase in our taxes? I'll second that.

See, I'll second that. What was the motion to not phase in the I I will add Thank you for that, by the way. Um, I will add that we have gotten comments from those at home asking you all to use your stage voice and when you're talking so that the microphones pick you up and it actually goes out over Zoom well. So, okay. So, we have a motion to Thank you. Do we even need this motion? Can't we just go on um

and not do it? I mean, I suppose you you the oddity of making a motion in the negative is what happens if it fails, but I I don't know what you're planning on doing. Um, so you're right. Technically, no. You would have to make an affirmative decision to to phase in taxes or phase in rather the grandless changes. So, I mean, how deal with that how you wish, but um you would technically not need this motion. You're correct in my opinion.

I understand that it helps some people in town, but it's hurting when you're hurting 50% of the people. I don't think we decision that's, you know, doing that to half the people. So I don't think that that's a fair I would suggest that it is not it's probably not 50%. I don't think that the that it's exactly half one way or the other, right? It has to be well but it doesn't the definition the definition if you're talking about an average yes

but when we look at this information um you're right half of the people are going to be below 50% and half of the people or half of the evaluations evaluation

are going to be more than 50%. But and again it is a policy choice of the council. You may do as you wish. The only reason I brought it to you as I said before was because of the shift and because of the taxpayers that it impacts the most. The taxpayers that are in that bracket of having assessed values of their homes of less than $300,000 in 2024 are the majority of the people who will see the built-in tax increase. Not just half. I mean the majority of the houses in that range are the ones that go up by that figure. The break point is 43%.

That is, so if you look at the material we sent you, the Z increase,

all things being equal, that is the tax the the budget doesn't change. If a person's value went up 43%. They effectively see no tax increase. And then that one sheet shows you sort of what happens on various um at various changes. Okay. So if you look this sheet shows you what happens when the top line is 43% and that's roughly zero. And if you go down to 50% that person sees a built-in tax increase with no phase in of 5%. right? etc., etc., down the line. And if you go the other direction, the person who's at 40% sees a 2% reduction, 35, a 6% reduction, etc., etc. If you couple that with the information you have that shows what happens to property values of less than $300,000. Those are the ones that are showing 51% increases, 49% average increases, 111% average increases. If you look at all the individuals, this is one of the pieces that we gave you a couple of weeks ago that showed where those changes were. So, all I'm telling you is that this variance impacts your your lower-end property tax owners more significantly than it does your higherend tax property owners. As a general rule, I know that there are people that are at the opposite end of the spectrum from from,

you know, a house that's at 70%, there's houses at 25%. I understand that for every residential property that there's at 70%, there's a commercial property at 25. Eversource 25%. They're going to pay 20, 30 grand less on the property they own here in town. $25 million in property tax value. They're hoping you don't phase this to bring more in. Yeah, that would be nice. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

It isn't necessarily, but it's a policy choice. So, you've got to take you've got a motion on the floor. I just wanted to make sure that you were what I we tried to prevent to present to you rather is kind of all the data we could and perhaps we gave you too much, but try to give you all the data you could. So, I didn't understand. I I did a a random study, okay,

of some and it looked to me like an equal number of people in the above 300,000 were going up above 50% and the and the same thing for the less than 300. It looked to me like it wasn't it was not biased with respect to the cost of the house but maybe when you look at all the data it is and unfortunately I mean the cost of all houses going around and you know what the lower cost houses are more sought after because you know so they're obviously their values are going to go up. It's common sense. You know, someone just starting out wants a a house that, you know, in that price range, they're going to pay more. They're bidding worse. That's what's happening.

But I'm I think we should just deal with this reval. And the question I have is the reval I mean are the do we have specific numbers that show that the house below 300,000 is going up more than 50%. More than the upper above 300. Sure. Is it is it true for this rebound is my question.

Um in short yes. So, you received from us um material both in this packet and and a couple of weeks ago that attempted to show you what the overall value change was uh for various strata so to speak, right? So that's this sheet here that shows this one's the residential sheet and on the first page it shows the whole grouping and on the second and third pages it breaks it down by various by various pieces. And so if you look at that there are two columns there right? So, for example, in the$1red to $200,000 range on that real estate and condominium sheet, it's so it shows that there's 3,62 parcels in that grouping. And if you look at the entire value of all 3,62 of those parcels that were between 100,000 and $200,000 in the grand list of 24, the whole group changed 49.6%. If you were to look at the sum or the average of the individual changes, so how much did my parcel change, how much did Joelen's parcel change, Karen's, etc. If you added all those numbers up, that was 49.1%. If you averaged all those numbers, okay, so the group, the column on the left is the entire group. What's with the change? The number on the right shows you how it shifted. If you look at the extremes, you could look at it that way, right? That picks up all the extremes.

Look at the group above it. The the properties that were 0 to 100. Now, there's only 406 of them. And if you look at that, a lot of those are the ones that have development. They're new builds. They're new builds. So, probably not a huge deal there. But look at the column below or the row below. 200 to 300,000 there's 1339 of our parcels are in there as a group they went up 50%. is the average individ which is not the average the average I don't have that sheet with me 46.5 um is what I saw

when you exclude

well it would be close to the average of the change is 50% in that instance the group change and then together the individual changes equal about 51 so not a lot spare major ch differences there. But still those two groups which account for 4,300 of our 5200 parcels will all take in and will have that built-in increase. Not all. Most of them will have a built-in increase. But to get to the question you asked me, look down farther down the row. 7 to $800,000 houses. Granted, there's only four of them in that particular list, but their values went up 25 23%.

Which means they've been overpaid. So that's that's perhaps a way of looking at it. But in 2024, that was the right number, right? Yeah. And in 2025, that's now the right number. But and they'll continue to overpay if we whatever. But that's that's the time that's the statement to make. they continue to overpay if we phase it in. Right. And that's that's your opinion. That's that is that's that's that is 100% my opinion.

Yep. And that I would argue that that is also an accurate statement. If you call them overpaying now, then yes, that is an accurate statement. And the question is the other side of the equation, whether there's anything to be done about the side that pays less, right? that side that was overpaying perhaps in the future or in the past rather. What happens to balance against those in the future, right? Frankly, it's a rip the band-aid off or pull it off slow.

So, it is what it is. If we just do if we do this change every reval, it's going to be a nightmare. And you're just, you know, over the years, your property has gone up and down at various times as well. So you you've had some pretty hefty swings in your property taxes at least when I was on you know board of finance. So and they didn't phase it in back then and his was going up and down by 5,000 a pop.

Mr. Chair, if I could I would also argue that it's going to make it very difficult at budget season for taxpayers to understand what is going on when they already have an increase that has been built in because we pushed this off and now we're talking about the budget. they're not going to understand what piece is coming from the budget and what that budget is because they have this increase too. So, it's it's really going to complicate that entire situation and I don't think the taxpayers are going to understand it either and I don't think it's going to benefit them in the long run. I I just don't I I don't see enough of a benefit overall to Can we call the question? Make that happen.

Sure. Is there any further discussion on the matter? If not, the question before us is to not I guess not adopt any phase in or other taxity. Those in favor signify by saying I post nay. Adopt or not adopted as the case may be. Uh there were other options that were on the table. I don't know whether you want to talk about those. Uh the folks from the assessors assessing firm mentioned some items as well. Uh whether you want to talk about any of those. We talked about homestead. There was

Can I interrupt you for one second? Uh when it comes to the uh I talked to Jeff today, I talked to the assessor. There there is a um the state had passed which could come to the council. I was wondering if we could put it to our next agenda about uh veterans exemptions um for the total impermanent disability uh where they've added up to two acres uh to their parcel. Um there's also another one for um parents of gold star um and also one for uh spouse of uh spouses that maybe we could also well not to put off all our talks but maybe we could incorporate it all in our next meeting to talk about different uh things that are available and have have a one conversation on all all of the different options that are there. How about we we ask the town manager to invest and the finance director to investigate it if they can get the information and data for our next meeting.

Uh Donna says she could. I haven't heard that directly, but I'll assume that's correct. But if she can't, then we'll just defer one one more. Yeah, that's that's fine. I just would like to discuss it all as as a cohesive thing. You know, I think it makes sense to look at all options that we have to see what makes the most sense for the residents and let's just sit down, hammer it up.

Moving on. Agenda item 10, town manager report. Uh so uh as I mentioned uh or I touch on uh firehouse committee the uh committee uh has as you'll recall put out um a request for qualifications and proposals for firms to undertake uh condition assessments for the three fire stations. Uh they received those back at a meeting they held uh last week. uh reviewed those uh through a scoring matrix based on the RFP uh and have selected three firms to interview uh this coming Monday the 2nd uh at 6:30. And so they'll they have all those firms have all confirmed. And so the entity the the firehouse site and development committee will be looking at uh interviewing those three committees and bringing to the council uh perhaps as soon as you're uh meeting on the 10th but probably sometime in March uh a recommendation for a consultant to undertake that work uh for the town. That was one of their responsibilities was to evaluate the condition of the building. So that's uh what they're moving forward with there. Another item that's coming for the council uh as well uh in March is a review uh of our contract or rather review of the party that we're using for the library consortium. Uh the director has been uh along with the library board evaluating uh options related to the consortium which provides a variety of services to us including uh access to another uh to other libraries materials as well as electronic record electronic books and other things like that electronic materials uh deliveries and those sorts of things. Uh so they've been looking at

and evaluating options and it's likely that they'll be bringing to the council uh a change in who that consortium is uh in the upcoming weeks. So watch for that. Uh and lastly, I'll just mention as uh as council member Wanet did, don't forget folks, the survey is out there in the world. Uh you can take it online, which is preferred by us, or you can come into the town hall or go to the senior center of the library and pick up a paper copy and fill it out there and bring it back in or get it back into the land use department here in the town hall and we'll enter the data for you. Uh the upside is we're at about 380 uh I believe the land used the planner told me today we're at about 380 uh um survey results have already been submitted. So that's great news. We're kind of shooting to get at least 500 of our residents to to provide their input. Uh that helps certainly make sure that we've got a broad spectrum replying. So, uh that's where we are. You have of course my paper version that is was in the packets and is online and I'll certainly answer any questions you may have.

Any questions, comments? Thank you, David. Thank you. Thanks. Agenda item 11, appointments. Think we have none this evening. Agenda item 12, tax refund. Mr. Fagel. Mr. Chair, I would like to make a motion to return five refunds totaling $1,02056. Grateful for owners. Motion made to return $1,02056. Is there a second to that? Yep.

Motion made and seconded. Is there any discussion? If not, those in favor signify by saying I. Opposed? Nay. Eyes have it. Adopt the Agenda item 13, public remarks. Is there anyone at this point who would desire to make public remarks or comments? Seeing no hands waving in the audience, we will move on. Agenda item 14, communications, correspondence and announcements, city ambulance association third quarter report in your packet. Someone just raised his hand online.

He's too late. It's all good. Go ahead. Yeah, we've already moved on. He should have raised his hand faster. Yeah, the gentleman should know that he needs to go to get some sleep having spent a lot of time clearing snow in the last few days. Um, sorry, Mr. Wana.

Can I uh just make comment on the ambulance uh thing just to let everyone know? So, I think it's a little misleading. Um, so under the ordinary income and expenses, it has the the $33,000 in donations with a budget of of,250. Uh, just be very mindful that 30,000 of that was a special airmark for the mannequin, which is also the expense of the mannequin is not in here um anywhere that I can see. So, um that is uh definitely um showing that it it that they're where it says overbudget on their income, they're definitely not. Um the other item is the unrealized gain on investments. That's not uh something that they're using for operations and probably shouldn't be there. So, it's artificially showing over $40,000 um in uh income that really is not there. uh the bottom line may net out to um to that, but I just wanted to let you know that it it seems very misleading um with what it is. So um and there's a couple other comments, but that that's a big one. Um just so you know.

Okay. Appreciate and I believe that they're going to change it going forward. Uh I have had a a conversation um uh with the uh chair um because I do think it's it's very misleading especially the fact that there's $30,000 which was you know a restricted donation um that it shows like it's operational. Thank you. Appreciate that.

Could I make one other announcement? Um I just like to let everybody know including the council members that our theater season at the schools is well underway. All the students have been rehearsing a lot. Um, the middle school will be performing Beetlejuice at the middle school and that will be March 6th through 8th. Uh, Mama Mia is the production that is taking place at the high school. That will be March 13th through 15th. And Willy Wonka Jr. is taking place at center school and that is April 9th through 11th. And all of those tickets will be posted on social media. You can buy them online so you have them before the event if you'd like to attend. Thank you.

Thank you. Hearing no request for further comments. Motion to adjurnn. Motion. Motion made and seconded. Figures. All right. Thanks. We adjourn. Thank you for your attention and anticipation. Now, he said there was something wrong with the Zoom link at some point. So I don't know that was but anyway you know there's a fancy at