Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good

evening. Welcome to our Draper City Planning Commission meeting. Today's date is 12/11/2025. So we're dwindling down to the end of the year here. So thanks for joining us. Thank you to the staff for getting everything ready, putting notices up, getting the reports to us, and, working with the applicants to get them this far. We, thank the commissioners up here for volunteering their time. And then, we also thank the applicants and then all our good neighbors for attending tonight. So let's go ahead and get things started. First on our agenda item, I don't see any changes to the agenda as it's been posted on our printout online. Correct? Good. Alright. So we'll just go as proposed. So first one's an action item.

It's simply just to approve the planning commission meeting minutes for 11/13/2025. Will someone give us a motion and a second for the approval of those minutes?

I'll make a motion. Go ahead, Gary. Do we approve the planning commission meeting minutes for the 11/13/2025 meeting.

I'll second that.

And Laura will second that. So thank you, Gary and Laura. Let's go ahead put that one to a vote. This is for approval November. Kendra, how do you oh, excuse me. Let's start with Gary.

Yes.

Laura? Yes. Kendra?

Yes.

And Christine?

Yes.

Awesome. Alright. Those are approved. So now we'll move on to our public hearings. We'll have a couple of these tonight. I'll explain how that works when we open it up for public comment. So public hearing tonight. The first one is the Butler zoning map amendment request. It's on the request of lean Lynne Butler, a zoning map amendment from r a one to r three. It's on approximately 1.04 acres and located approximately 283 East Tanager Lane. This is known as application 2025Dash0241DashMA. And Paul Gowland is our staff contact. So, Paul, go ahead. Good to see you again.

My apologies. So there we have our vicinity map. We're just West of 3rd East and North of Browns Pond. We go in for a closer view. So you can see we've got Tanager Lane and 3rd East there, and you can see Browns Pond in the Southwest corner.

So we are that corner lot there. Looking at the land use, so I would like to note that the current zoning designation of R A 1 is not supported by the current land use, which is residential medium density. The proposed zoning of R 3 is is conforming with the the residential medium density. Our zoning map, we have a pocket of R A 1 there. To the East, we have R 3.

And to the South, and slightly to the west, we do have R A 2. Overview of the request of the main change in terms of square footage requirement for the lot size. It goes from 40,000 square feet to 13,000 square feet. So that is the the minimum lot size in R 3. We have a couple site photos. One from where you see the the wall is from 3rd East, and then where you see the picket fence is from Tanager Way. If you have any questions or comments, I can answer them. We also have Lanea Butler, the applicant, and her father, the property owner, Carrie Butler, here to answer questions as well.

Great. Thank you for that. Any questions for staff before we invite the applicant up? Okay. Is the applicant here? Hi. Come on up. You guys can both come up if you like. Either way, you're the applicant. You've got free rein. So is there anything else you'd like to add to that presentation or or anything that they missed?

Yeah. Unless you have questions.

What questions do we have? You're getting off easy, so perfect. That's it. We'll invite you back up after the public hearing if we need to. Okay? Alright. Thank you. Alright. This is a public hearing. So when we do this this evening, we'll open up public comment up to three minutes per person. You don't have to fill the whole time. We just ask that you don't go over the red timer over there that, starts out with three minutes. So with that being said and those rules set out, who would like to address this agenda item tonight? Come on down. And then, just some decorum on this. If you'll just state your name. That's all we need for the recording so we know who's talking.

Jacob Goodrich. I'll say a little bit more than my name. I'm the immediate to the west neighbor of the Butler's. Just wanna say I fully support this. Love the idea, and that's it.

Perfect. Thank you. Anyone else? Come on down. Sorry for the long walk from the back.

My name is Kathleen Keller. I'm a neighbor as well. I didn't get here at the very beginning. The question I had is where is the access gonna be?

So we'll just take

Or have they determined that?

We'll just take your comments, and then we'll make some notes. It won't be open back and forth, but I'll take a note of that and hopefully answer that.

My question as to where is it gonna be off of 300 East or Tanager?

Is that it?

My question.

Okay. Thank you. Mhmm. Alright. Anyone else? Alright. We'll go ahead and close the public hearing portion. Alright. The applicant can come on back up. And sorry. This is kinda awkward dialogue. Right? But there's a question for you. Maybe you can answer that just on the the access.

So presently, we don't know. We've looked at both options. There's access off 300 East, and there's also access up off of Tanager Lane. Sure. We haven't quite crossed that bridge.

And so

this is just the the change we're asking for tonight doesn't doesn't require that. It's a little premature, but that answers that that we don't

know yet. Yeah.

Alright. Any other questions? Okay. Alright. Thanks again. We'll put this up to a vote and some discussion here. Commissioners, what are your thoughts?

Seems pretty straightforward. It does.

What would you like to do?

I can make a motion if there's no further discussion.

Yeah. Please do.

I move that we forward a positive recommendation to the city council for the zoning map amendment as requested by Linea Butler. Application 2025Dash0241DashMA based on the findings and criteria for approval listed in the staff report dated 12/01/2025, and that would include the five findings for approval listed in the report.

Thanks, Kendra. Who will second that motion? I'll second it. Thanks, Gary. This is for a positive recommendation to be sent to the city council. So, Kendra, how do you vote?

Yes.

Gary? Yes. Laura?

Yes. And Christine?

Yes.

Perfect. Alright. Good luck with the city council. Thanks for coming in tonight. Alright. Our next item. Also a public hearing. This is Jim Duncan fence conditional use permit It's on the request of Jim Duncan. A conditional use permit to allow for a fence that is taller than six feet. It's on approximately point one six acres, and it's located at 296 East Redleaf Drive. It's known as Application2025Dash0233DashUSE. And Nick Whitaker is our staff contact. So, Nick, it's your turn. Go ahead.

Thank you. So, yes, this is the Jim Duncan fence conditional use permit. One moment. I have one of those mice that are you get

the did you get the trick mouse?

I every time.

I think they put that in there just to keep everybody awake. See how good you are. Sorry. We're gonna paint that one bright orange. Okay? We got to. Okay.

Let me start over here.

For an electric fist pump.

We could ask.

Yeah. How do they deserve it?

They do.

Okay. So here is the vicinity map of the property, that red square here in the center. An aerial map of the property right here off of 800 East. Land use map. The land use designation is residential medium density, and the zone is r a two.

So an overview of the request for the conditional use permit is a request to install or the installation of an eight foot fence. And the purpose of the fence, it's not a perimeter fence. It's to be a barrier around a sports court. And the fence is chain link with black vinyl coating. Here is Draper City code regarding fence height.

Anything over six feet and under 10 feet requires conditional use permit. Here's a site plan provided by the applicant. The sports court will be located here. Now this property is unique, and I talk more about this in the report. But this property is actually made up of of two lots, and this pre predates the incorporation of the city.

I believe it was 1978. However, historically, it has functioned as one lot. So it would appear as though it is sitting in the front yard of this property. However, there there is no residential structure on this property. So there is no front yard because a front yard plane can't be established without the residential structure.

So potential impacts would be minor impacts to visibility for pedestrians utilizing the adjacent sidewalk. Again, 800 East is here. There's a residential structure here, and the sports court is behind it. It's essentially I mean, it would appear as though it's a backyard. So the proposed mitigation is that all requirements of the Draper City engineering building and planning divisions are satisfied throughout the construction of the fence, including permitting, that the fence shall not exceed eight feet in height and shall be constructed only in the locations indicated on the approved site plan, plan, and that the applicant obtains a building permit for the fencing in the locations indicated on the approved site plan.

And there is a building application in already. A building permit application, rather. And here is an exterior photo of the property. The the property is in the rear or the well, the subject property is in the rear. So, yeah, it would be again, as you can see, there's a a residential structure here. The actual property is behind it, and there is no residential structure on the property behind it. So any questions or comments?

It's interesting that even though it's chain link fence, it still requires that that permission. So we're usually getting that that request for barriers, right, on perimeter fencing. So this is interesting. It's the first one I've seen of this. So good. Any questions for staff? K. We'll go ahead and invite the applicant up. Is the applicant here? Hi. Come on down. Just state your name, and you're welcome to add anything you like. And maybe it'll drum up a question or two. But I'm assuming that you've got this is your access driveway here. Right? And you've got two shops and now with a sport court back on your property?

Correct. Yes.

Good. Anything else you oh, state your name too, if you would.

Jim Duncan. I used to have a shop back there. I I did business out of my home. I sold that two years ago. So now it's just a glorified man cave for my grandkids. But we wanted to put a basketball court back there on the half acre of asphalt Mhmm. Along with the pickleball court. So we actually painted the pickleball court on the asphalt Oh, cool. That was already there. It's got a little bit of a polymer paint in it to it to give it a smoother hit.

Anyways, my wife's just tired of chasing balls, and the extra two foot will help her and the grandkids. Plus, it'll give us a little bit of shake. That half acre back there is real hot in the summer, so we're hoping that the two feet can kinda help shade some of that in there when the sun reaches and starts to set. So Okay. You know, there's there's no neighbors close by anywhere around because it's kinda in the back in the middle of that.

There is a fence that separates those two lots, really. And I'm only putting three sides up around that because there's a fence already, and I don't wanna have a fence and then 10 feet and another fence. Because I've got some pine trees along that back fence just before the asphalt starts. So

I'm assuming that's your residence there. Correct?

It is my

residence. Good. Yeah.

Well, that makes sense. Any questions? Alright. Pretty straightforward again. Thank you. We'll invite you back up if we need to. Alright. This is, again, a public hearing. Who would like to address this agenda item for up to three minutes? I don't see any movement, so no takers on that. We will go ahead and close the public hearing portion. Commissioners, thoughts?

I think this is pretty straightforward. It's not a bear it's not a a perimeter fence. It's got setbacks from the from the property lines, and so I don't think I think the impact is gonna be minimal to if any, to the to the adjoining lots. So I will make a motion

if Yeah. Go ahead.

I move that we approve the conditional use permit as requested by Jim Duncan, application 2025Dash0233DashUSC based on the following findings for approval and subject of conditions listed in the staff report dated 12/01/2025. And there is one reason on the report that reasonable mitigation measures are in place for the conditional use permit to alleviate anticipated detrimental effects.

Yeah, we should approve it, I think. Great. Who will second that motion from Gary?

I'll second it.

Alright. Thanks, Laura. K. Let's go ahead and put this then to a vote. Gary?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

And Kendra?

Yes.

Alright. Congrats on that. Looks like a good Christmas present then for the wife. So thanks for coming in. Alright. Let's go ahead move on to our next agenda item as posted. This one is also a public hearing. It's the Pinnacle Towers conditional use permit amendment. It's on the behalf of Todd Doust representing Comscapes, Crown Castle International, and Pinnacle Towers Inc. It's a conditional use permit amendment request for point nine zero acres. It's located approximately 16211 South Minuteman Drive. It's known as Application 20250328DashUSE. And Todd Draper is our staff contacts. Go ahead, Todd.

Alright. Thank you. This is a request for an amendment to an existing conditional use permit by doing another or new conditional use permit. This vicinity is way at the south end of the city here. The blue line is kind of both the city and, I believe, the county boundary at the same time. And this is kind of all the gravel pits and whatnot you'll see there. This is just the aerial. You'll see it's a very small triangular shaped piece. This is to the north. This is the south.

And then towers kind of towards the north end of it there. It is some community commercial, I guess, in the area, and then it's in that m two industrial zone. Site plan here, pretty simple. It is a lattice tower opposed to what I think we often see as like monopoles. And that was approved approximately twenty five ish years ago almost.

And so one of the concerns with that original approval, and I know that's in your staff report there as well, is that I think the original condition said something to the effect of bring it back in twenty five years. I think it got printed in that approval letter as expires in twenty five years, but as we know, that's not really how our conditional use permits work. And looking at some of the meeting minutes, it looked like it was intended to actually be reviewed at a twenty five year interval. So they're looking to remove that condition as it's been about twenty four years. It will be twenty five at the end of towards the end of next year.

And then staff, when we were looking at this as well, this is just kind of as long as we're doing this, there is one kind of condition in that original approval regarding the height that might be a little problematic as far as running afoul of current regulations. So there's just a recommendation in there to change that to allow it to go to the allowable height under those federal regulations. So right now I believe we've actually done either a permitted use or another conditional use for an extension to that tower. That takes it from the 100 feet that was in that original conditional use permit to about 114. This is just the elevation again, so you can kinda see that right there.

This was the antenna, and this is kind of a safety climb that's on the top. So we usually don't look at lightning rods as part of the height, and this could be probably considered some of that as well. Apical may be a bit better able to explain that than I can. So like I said, just the request to remove that portion for review or expiration. The other conditions would remain in effect and then just adjust the condition regarding the tower height to better align with federal requirements.

And then here's a couple of aerial photos from the county just because I was not gonna go all the way up there and try and get them myself. It's kind of up there, and these are kind of gated and private and and have a lot of regulation with the neighboring gravel

pit.

And then just kind of a side view as well. So that is presentation. Are there any other questions you might have for me?

Is the parasailers and the paragliders, they don't land in that area or

I don't believe they do. I do know that this is adjacent to the state park kind of towards if we move back here. Well, I don't have the greatest, but yeah. State park, flight park area is kind of back in here.

I'm just worried about safety. But Mhmm.

This has been here for Yeah. Like I said, nearly twenty five years. So What's the height of it? A 114, 118 feet right now. Okay.

Alright. Thanks, Todd. Is the applicant here? Hi there. You know the drill to state your

name and then add anything you like. Absolutely. Good evening, commissioners. For your record, my name is Todd Doust. I'm with CommScapes here on behalf of Crown Castle International and Pinnacle Towers. I wanna thank you for the opportunity to be before you tonight. I wanna thank staff for their thorough presentation, and, hopefully, it'll make my job a little easier tonight. Here to answer any questions you might have regarding the proposal.

Any questions? No. The diagram was very self explanatory, and you're you're you're you've got it a little bit easy. It's already there. Right? So you're not asking for much other than to just just peacefully exist. Exactly. Keep on existing. So good. Well, no. We appreciate that. We'll open it up for public comment. And if we need to, we'll invite you back up. Thank you. So thank you. Alright. Again, public comment is now open. Who would like to address this agenda item? Alright. I don't see anyone, so we'll go ahead and close the public comment. Alright, guys. What do you think? It's a tower that I didn't know existed. I don't think many did, so it's that's the way we want them. Right?

We wanna just have them lay low unnoticed. So what are your thoughts here for this proposal tonight?

It's another one that's straightforward, and I can make a motion if there's no other comments.

Yeah. Let's do it. Go ahead, Kendra.

I move that we approve the conditional use permit amendment as requested by Todd Doust representing Comscapes, Crown Castle International, and Pinnacle Towers Inc. Application 2025Dash0238Dash USC based on the findings and criteria for approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated 11/12/2025, and that would include the seven findings listed there.

Thanks, Kendra. Who will second that motion?

I'll second it.

Alright. Thanks, Laura. Let's go ahead and put this one to a vote for approval. Kendra?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

And Gary? Yes. Alright. Congrats on that again. So we appreciate coming in and getting that taken care of. Alright. Now we are moving on to our next public hearing. This is item one e if you're following along. This is the Tamed Beauty LLC home occupation conditional use permit. It's on the request of Marissa La Sonienta representing Tamed Beauty. Now you can come up and correct me on that if that's if that needs correction. A conditional use permit for a home occupation that provides personal care services on approximately point zero one acres located at 182 East Daisy Field Drive, known as Application 2025 Dash 0214 Dash U S E. And Nick Whitaker is our staff contact. So go ahead, Nick.

Thank you. So, yes, this is the Tame Dubueti LLC, home occupation conditional use permit. Here's a vicinity map of the property. Right along here is I 15. Aerial map.

Land use map. The land use is residential high density, and the zoning is R3. And as you can see here, it is multifamily housing in the form of townhomes. So the overview is to operate a home occupation that provides personal care services, which would be an aesthetic salon. The overview of the business operation is that services are provided at the subject property. Customers come to the home. Home. Customers schedule appointments in advance. Only one customer is scheduled per appointment. An off street parking stall is provided.

Appointments do not exceed sixty minutes plus lead time in between appointments. Between two to six appointments are anticipated per day, and the proposed hours of operation are 8AM to 8PM, Monday through Saturday. Here is a site plan. The dedicated parking stall for the customers coming to the home would be in the driveway. I should note that this is a shared driveway with the unit next door.

Each property has a one car garage and a or I should say each unit rather has a one car garage and the ability to park one vehicle on the driveway. The applicant will be parking their vehicle in the garage while the customer parks in the driveway. Here's the floor plan. There is a spare room that the applicant uses to provide the service in the home. So the impact analysis and mitigation.

We identified potential impacts for customers coming to the home and customer vehicles, parking, and related traffic. The proposed mitigation is that all customer appointments are by appointment only. It's limited to one customer at a time. There will be the applicant will be providing one designated off street parking stall for all customer vehicles. And then an approval letter from the HOA shall be provided to Draper City staff prior to issuing a business license.

And the reason that that is listed on there is for a home occupation that is in a multifamily dwelling, it does require approval from the HOA or some type of a written statement from the HOA saying that they're okay with essentially. The applicant in their submittal said that they would be providing one upon approval. So as a condition of approval, we put that on there that before we issue the license, would need to have that letter from the HOA. Here's an exterior photo of the property. As you can see, it is a shared driveway.

This is the applicant's property here, right in the middle. The customers can again, would be parking right there. Questions or comments?

Alright. We don't see any, Nick. Thank you. Is the applicant here? Hi. If you wanna come on down. And, again, I'm sorry if I got your name wrong. So you're welcome to just state your name now.

It's Marissa Lakinienta.

Alright. Perfect. Nice to meet you. Alright. Anything you'd like to add to that presentation?

He did a pretty good job. I'm a recently solo aesthetician, so I'm hoping to run a small business out of my home. I will be offering lash brows and waxing services. And it will be a fairly small business, so like he said, only two to six clients on a fully booked day. And I know parking was a lot of been some people's biggest concern, but that's why I'll offer my dedicated parking spot in the driveway to guarantee that no parking spots are taken from the neighbors.

On the street. Perfect. Any questions for the applicant? Alright. We'll put it up to a public hearing just like before. And if we need to, we'll invite you back up. Thanks for coming in. Alright. Again, this is a public hearing. Who would like to address this agenda item?

Alright. I'm not seeing any movement, so we'll go ahead and close the public portion. Commissioners, we've been down this this area. If you've been down this area in these these streets, it gets a little tight in there in the Daisy Field, Mayfield, Honeyfield, I think, is another one there. Yeah. There it is right there. So in the townhomes, but that's with that one parking spot there, I think that really does help mitigate that. So and, again, that's a that's a pretty low impact, you know, just having even on a full packed day. But what are your thoughts? I don't get a vote. What are your thoughts?

I would agree with you. So given using the driveway, I don't think there's any issue with street parking or causing further problems with congestion.

So Yeah. I won't add to or take away from anything. Just kinda net neutral. Right?

And I can go ahead and make a motion.

Yeah. Go ahead, Kendra. You're on a roll. Yep. It's MVP. Do we have a certificate?

Things moving.

I think we'll have a certificate for you at the end of the night.

I move that we approve the home occupation conditional use permit as requested by Marissa Canienta, and I apologize because I know I did not get that right, representing Tamed Beauty LLC application 2025Dash0214DashUSE based on the following findings for approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated 12/01/2025. And the findings for approval are that the proposal complies with the standards for approval found in DCMC section nine dash five dash zero eight zero e and potential negative impacts are mitigated through the imposition of reasonable conditions.

Thanks, Kendra. Who will second that motion for approval?

I'll second.

Alright. Thanks, Christine. Let's put that to a vote then. Kendra, how do you vote?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Gary? Yes. Alright. So that's approved. Congrats on that. Good luck with your business. Thanks for coming in and doing it the right way. Alright. The next one we've got is a public hearing for Granite Construction yard site plan and deviation request. It's on the behalf of Tina Mudd representing Granite Construction Company and Stack Bangerter LLC, a site plan application and associated deviation request for approximately point eight five acres located at approximately 13488 South 200 West. It's known as Application 2025Dash0103DashSP2025Dash0211DashVAR and 20252012DashVAR. So our staff contact is Todd Draper. Go ahead, Todd.

Alright. Thank you again. So as you mentioned, this is the ground construction yard. It's a site plan and deviation and associated deviation request with that. You probably remember this as coming through as a rezone earlier for a little piece of this earlier in the year.

This is the vicinity map. It's located there kind of at the end of what I guess is 138th And Bhangator and this nice new little road that they've make everybody drive around for getting to and around the point. And this is, again, the aerial map of the the entire property. They will still need to complete the consolidation of those, but that would not be problematic to get done. Again, there's the zoning.

It is sorry. I'm trying to remember if this is the land use of the zone. This is the land use, which is industrial there and then the zoning also matching that. So there's the little piece right there that we had rezoned earlier to match with the rest of it. This is the proposed site plan.

They will enter from kind of 138th in the south there. This would be the access. This is technically still right of way. I don't know what the disposition of that will be in the future, but this is where where that access to the existing street will will take place. The site would have the landscape material bins around kind of the perimeter, another set here in the center, and there would be a small building brought onto the site here which would serve as the offices, restrooms, etcetera.

And then they would put a scale on this side of the building. And then you'll see just requires about four stalls, so that's what they have. And then the landscaping does comply with the amounts that would need to happen for the deviation requests, which in this case so the entrance of the building is here on the north side. It's required to face the street. But under the deviation for site design, as long as they meet three criteria, you can grant a deviation from that.

The three criteria, of course, is that where we typically require 20% of the area to be landscape landscaping, they'll be doing 30. And then excuse me. And then as we go yeah. There's a landscape plan where you can actually see the plants that are going to be in there. And then as we go to the elevations here, they actually do meet the primary materials requirements.

This will be concrete fiberboard, and then they'll put some stone on there. It will exceed the minimum 75% by more than 10%. That's kind of the second criteria there. And, oops, I was hoping the other one was

there. So

we'll just kind of jump back here to this one. Other oh, yeah. Sorry. That one. Another thing on the motion of your staff report, there is just some minor things that are included, some conditions in there. When it came out to the plant coverage, it's not quite calculated quite right. So I did provide some red lines to them, and they're having the landscape architect fix it. The amount of area here actually is larger than what's shown here by just a fraction. So there's just some discrepancies that they need to clean up. And then I think they will be pretty close.

I figure it's at least at 71% coverage right now. It needs to be 75% at maturity. So it will probably be just a few additional plants in some areas where there's a little less coverage. So the condition that I've put in there is just to have them bring that back to staff prior to the issuance of the building permit for the building to go on.

Todd, is that really the landscape plan? Is every one of those a bush?

Not necessarily a bush. Different perennials, different shrubs. It's going

be Draper Gardens Yeah. Down

It is a landscape yard. Yeah. Alright. But again, this is to be shown at maturity there. So this is ten years down the line.

Next ten years it will not look that full. But they do comply otherwise with all other landscape requirements. Again, the elevations there, north side with the entry and then the south side. There'll be some additional screening that will be on the east side for the mechanical equipment and some additional landscaping there as well. That is one of the issues that they also need to correct in the plan is just getting the right kind of plants in for some of the screening.

Some of them are not quite tall enough. So it will just be swapping out some some species, things like that. This again is just the floor plan. Pretty basic couple of offices, restroom, then just open office areas. So it'll also act as their scale house.

And then the fencing is required. They have proposed an eight foot fence, which is kind of what we'd be looking for with a storage yard, a taller fence. Also in there, as we kind of noted, the way a storage yard works, in this case, they the storage yard is part of the type of use, the construction sales and service. However, it requires a 10 foot tall fence. And to reduce that lower than 10 feet requires conditional use permit.

So there's just a condition in there that they either build this exact same fence to the 10 foot level, which would be the general requirement or get the conditional use permit, come back before you for that to reduce it. And then along the front, it will be masonry wall. It will have some horizontal articulation to it. So that's looks kinda nice there. We'll probably help to beautify the area even a little bit more than than just looking at a typical block wall.

And then the sides will be that chain link with slat. And then these are the side photos from earlier because the ones I got most recently were a little bit dark. So these were back from the when we looked at the zone change. And so the other two so the other deviation I missed. Totally forgotten.

Like, one deviation is for the site. The other one is just from the cross access. Typically would require cross access to other commercial properties. They've listed their justifications there and their materials that are part of the staff report for getting deviation from that, primarily looking at the fact that where there are kind of use with big trucks and things that may be incompatible with potential future uses in a different type of commercial zone as opposed to industrial zone here in the future. So any other questions I can help answer?

Is that structure, is that a, like, a trailer? Is that permanent?

They can probably answer that better, but the idea is, yeah, it would be kind of a prefabricated building possibly on a trailer on on something that they would then make permanent while they're there in operation.

Okay. Great. Any questions for staff? Alright. Thanks, Todd. Is the applicant here? You wanna come on down, state your name, and then add anything you like. Good

evening. Good to see you again. Hi. Tina Mudd, Granite Construction. We wanted to thank staff for all of their efforts on this between the zone change and the site plan review. It's been a long haul so we're grateful to them. We're here to answer any questions and we just wanted to say that we are in agreement with the conditions of the site plan review and that we're just eager to get to business and be part of the business community here in Draper, and I'll answer any questions you have.

So the question I had there just on that structure is that that's also gonna be the weigh house. Right? So that needs to be elevated for people in their trucks to be able to kinda be on the same level the with the person at the window?

Exactly. It's an Atco prefab building, and then we'll put the architectural design and accent on it so that it doesn't look like

a prefab. Matches. Yeah.

And then that was actually part of the reason for the deviation was because of the scale house, we had to switch the building entry in order to have to let our trucks make the full circle around and deliver the products and then hit the scale. So that was the reason we could not face. And then we also didn't want the door walking out into the scale where the trucks were. So it was a safety hazard.

Perfect. And then again, you already heard my comments about the landscaping, where to go. So maybe in ten years, we'll be able to bring our grandkids over there and you can charge a fee to walk around your your border. Just just the the, yeah, the landscape barrier. So good job on that. And then finally, the any I mean, I know what's around this. You've got a freeway on ramp and a on the other side, you've got commercial. Any dust? I mean, just the nature of the the product. Is it is it is it gravel? Is it stone? Is it

Primarily stone gravel type landscape rocks that you would see in your yard, the colored rocks, the stuff that you're not gonna get at our regular quarries. But I would add that part of our site design, we did add dust suppression and emitters throughout so that if something's a little dusty, we'll be able to turn on sprinklers and spray it down. Perfect. So we'll should be handling that. And we're used to being we have aggregate quarries as well, so we're used to managing dust.

Yep. I bet. We've seen your name before, so we know you you know what you're doing. Thank you. Alright. Any other questions for for the applicant before we put it up to public comment? Okay. Alright. We'll invite you back up if we need to. Okay? Okay. Thanks for coming in. Alright. This is a public hearing, so it's open for public comment. Who would like to address this item?

Alright. Dust is settled. No pun intended there. I don't see anyone, so we will go ahead and close the public hearing portion of this agenda item. So commissioners, what are your thoughts?

Kendra, you're welcome to don't be shy.

I was waiting.

See? Now we've inhibited.

Yeah. No. It's all Kendra.

Yeah. I guess I will make a motion if no one has any other comments.

We'd love that. No. I I think this like it's gonna

be several. Right? Three. So we have I'll start. Let's go in order. The building orientation deviation. I move that we approve the deviation for building orientation as requested by Tina Mudd representing Granite Construction Company and Stackbanger LLC for application 2025Dash0211DashVAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated 12/01/2025, and there are two findings for approval listed there.

Thanks, Kendra. Who will second that?

I'll second it.

Thanks, Gary. Alright. So this is for the building orientation approval. We heard the explanation for that, so no further discussion. Let's put that one to a vote. Kendra, how do you vote?

Yes.

Gary? Yes. Christine?

Yes.

And Laura?

Yes.

Alright. So next one.

I'll give her a break.

Okay. Perfect.

I'd like to make a motion, Andrew.

Okay. Go ahead, Gary.

So that we approve the deviation for cross access as requested by Tina Mudd representing Granite Construction Company and Stackbanger LLC for applicant 2025Dash0212DashVAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated 12/01/2025, and there's two findings for the approval in the report.

Thank you, Gary. Who will second that?

I'll second it.

Alright. Thanks, Laura. This is for cross access deviation approval. Gary, how do you vote? Yes. Laura? Yes. Christine?

Yes.

And Kendra?

Yes.

Alright. And there's one last one here. Plan.

I can take the site plan.

Alright.

I move that we approve the site plan as requested by Tina Mudd, representing Granite Construction Company and Stack Bingater LLC for application 2025Dash0103DashSP based on the findings for approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated 12/01/2025, and there are five findings for approval listed there.

Perfect. Thanks, Kendra. Who'll second that motion for site plan approval?

I'll second.

Thanks, Christine. Okay. Let's put it to a vote. Kendra?

Yes.

Christine?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Gary? Yes. Alright. Congrats on that. We appreciate coming in. Yep. Thank you. So let's move on to our next item. It's also a public hearing. It's the city initiated geologic hazards ordinance text amendment. Very exciting. It's on the request of Draper City, a text amendment to portions of the Draper City municipal code, titles nine, ten, seventeen, and eighteen in order to update and move the geologic hazards ordinance known as application number 2025Dash0259 Dash t a. And Todd Taylor, again, is our staff contacts. Go ahead.

Thank you.

The geologic hazard ordinance that we currently have, it was adopted in 2007. There were have been a few amendments since then. As part of that ordinance, the city has some third party reviewers that help review our applications and the the geological hazard studies. Those are Alan Taylor with Taylor Geotechnical Engineering, and David Simon with Simon Associates. They also provide us with technical expertise in these matters.

The purpose of these amendments is really to improve the clarity for applicants, bring in, make sure that we have our best engineering practices and really again provide clarity through the implementation that we've been doing for the past several years and just cleaning things up. We're also bringing in state standards that were previously referenced so that it's all in one sort of document. And then we're also correcting an error that was found in the code. So bringing that all together. So as mentioned, the text amendments are to titles nine, ten, seventeen, and eighteen.

And this is sort of a unique case. We're bringing this all together as a package, but the Planning Commission doesn't have authority over titles ten and eighteen. And so currently the ordinance is in title nine. It's chapter nine dash 19. And we're proposing to take that out completely and move it to Title X, which is our building regulations, and it would become Chapter amendment, the proposal is to create a geotechnical engineering standards document.

And this is something that would be adopted by the city council by resolution. And part of that is moving the current appendices that are in the ordinance into that standards document since they didn't really seem to fit as currently sort of organized. This is in the staff report. It just shows sort of a crosswalk of of how each of those sections is going to be moved and a couple of some new sections for the establishment of the standards, for some exemptions, and then, again, moving the appendices to the oops. I forgot to there's a typo here.

The geotechnical engineering standards, not the manual. Yeah. That really concludes my presentation, and I'm available if you have any questions.

Very nice. Thank you. Any questions? Okay. You're the applicant, so we'll go ahead and open it up public hearing. Okay? Is there anyone that would like to address this agenda item? Alright. We'll go ahead and close the public hearing. Commissioners, what are your thoughts? This is for a forward to the city council.

I can make a motion.

Let's do it.

I move that we forward a positive recommendation to the city council for the city initiated geologic hazards ordinance text amendment as requested by Draper City application number 2025Dash0259DashTA based on the following findings and the criteria for approval as listed in the staff report dated 11/24/2025. That includes the five findings for approval listed there.

Perfect. Thanks, Kendra. Who seconds that?

I'll second that.

Thanks, Gary. Alright. Let's put that to a vote then. Let's move forward with a positive recommendation. City council. Let's go ahead and start with you, Kendra.

Yes.

Carrie, how do you vote?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

And Christine?

Yes.

Perfect. Thank you. Alright. So that completes that agenda item. Next on the list, it's the Peterson And Bell properties land use and zoning map amendment request.

It's on the request of Dave Johnson representing the Peterson and Bell families to amend the land use designation for a portion of of 693 East And 138 South from residential low medium density to residential medium density and to amend the zoning designation from RA one, which is residential agricultural 4,000 40,000 square foot minimum to R 3, which is single family residential 13,000 square foot lot minimums for a portion of 693 East And 138 South. And from R A 1 to R A 2 for the entire property at 703 East And 138 South. The rezoning is being requested in order to facilitate a future boundary line adjustment between the property owners. Is this item continued?

Yes.

You guys are so mean.

Was gonna say.

That you let me rattle that all off. This is great practice.

But it's in the record now.

That was a lot. Not an easy It's good practice. Summary. Yes. Good practice.

Thank you. I want

you guys to consider that. Right? It's so nice. You know, it's it's thanks for being so respectful. You didn't interrupt me. I was on a roll there, and it would have just broken my stride. Thank you. Alright. So that's been continued. So how exciting. Alright. Correct. Now we've got one we've got one other item on there, and I think we've got some training. Correct?

We do. And didn't I

just eat into two minutes of the 20? You know That was great

training in in humility there. Yeah. We we have a reading practice.

It's okay.

You can

so state state rules apply. Go ahead.

No. You're good. And I'm just trying to make sure we've got it all set here. So Alright. Well, welcome to our last and final installment or episode of our training for this year.

I was a little bit all over the place when I was trying to put this together. So apologize if it may seem that way a little bit, but I think I got it pulled together. I wanted to kinda just go over some of the best practices was kind of the idea, but it kinda morphed a little bit more into kind of the 10 commandments of thou shalt or nots and whatnot. But we'll try and have some fun with it here. So obviously, we've got to have a Simpson's piece here.

But even though this is not about the Simpson's, it's always important, you know, to check who your neighbors are before you move in. Right? So we'll see if this will allow us to go visit another one. Oh, it's not going to let me. We'll just do this. Pull it. You gotta close that box. Yeah. You gotta close that dang box.

Then right click. Open label.

Oh, the edit. That's why. Thank you. Maybe it will. Maybe it will let me. We'll just try and pull it from here.

Some people just know they could save hundreds on home insurance by checking Allstate first.

First night in the new house.

Oh, this.

Like, you know, to check the neighbors first before buying a house.

What was that?

What?

Yeah. Checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate.

Oops. That did not pause. Alright. That was that was a fun video there, but always need to check who our neighbors are first before we move in, right? So in kind of just doing our best practices, we just kind of want to check-in. We've gone over a lot of things this year. And so I kind of let tell them kind of our 10 pitfalls to avoid. We've gone over some of these through the duration of some of the different trainings that we've had, whether those are the ones Spencer's done or that I've done and or Tracy. And so some of this is like your end of year test, your quiz, your final. So that first pitfall is applying our personal preference instead of the code.

And that kind of is the difference of looking at the standards versus our opinions. Does anybody have an example of one that they might think of we've come across?

Yeah. I have one. It's the I don't like hedgerows, but they were allowed.

So we

had to we had to let it stand. And then the good news is that we've now removed hedgerows from an allowable substitute for a fence. Right? Yep. Mhmm. So that's it. So that would be that was a big eye opener for me. You know? Why in the world are we using hedgerows

as fencing? What application you're

talking about. Because the code allowed for it. Right? And it was a a bit of a loop phole. And so and that would bring me to my next one. How do you stay grounded in the ordinances? Well, we listen to you guys, and we we also need to know what those those what the code says. So if you don't know, we don't know, then we can't stay grounded in that. Then we lead then we fall on our opinion. So knowing the code and listening to staff because you know the code.

What what other ways I've got a few others, but I'm wondering if I'm looking for a little feedback. What other ways get what other things tools help you stay grounded in the ordinance? You do this every every month. Staff report. When you do that, it'll kind of clue you into the different pieces, the different things you can do, and what maybe might be out of bounds.

So second one is kind of along those lines, ignoring comprehensive plan or general plan. So what is our general plan? Who who's got a maybe a definition or an explanation for what our general plan is?

No one? Well, then we just What does

it do?

Well, then we just make a change of that here with the city center, town center, whatever you wanna call it? So that's our, like, thirty year, fifty year plan for what's gonna happen here.

Yep.

But but let me ask you this, Todd. So for example, to bring up what's still pending right now, and this is I think it's a big deal to Draper. But right now, we've got this retail section there, that delta, that triangular delta on a Hundred And 38th And 3rd East and Bangater. Right? Just that little piece there. So I would love to understand the general plan better and how much teeth it it actually has in any instance because did the city plan fifty years ago for that to be retail, and does that have any bearing even though it's not in our I mean, you can't there's nothing in the code that says this is what's gonna go here. Yeah. But but help help me understand that. Like, where because it seems like I think that's a

a great kinda segue here to this. So the general oh, Jen wants to

ask something.

Think we wanna go into specifics on that

property because it's that I didn't give an address.

Still has to go to counsel.

Give an address. Let's suppose there was a property that was, you know

Yeah.

Yeah. That was that was that was kind of in question on any application. Let's take any application.

Well, and and I think you guys you guys see these applications frankly all the time. We'll kinda look at that first item on the agenda tonight that Butler's zoning map amendment. They just had to request the zoning map because what they were requesting already complied with our general plan, our land use map.

Versus when we see both of those brought up.

Correct. Our our goal is always to kinda have the zoning and that land use map land use map match. So when we get these requests, if it doesn't what they want to do if it doesn't match, they also have to amend that other map. Now our overall general plan document, we adopted in 2019. And there's been some amendments for, like, the modern income housing section, the water element that we just did this month.

The stationary plans are now a part of that document. But in 2019, we pretty much updated, like, the goals and policies within the general plan as well as that map. When we did that, we looked at updating the land use designations for properties that were already developed. A good example is Sun Crest. Our previous land use map just showed all of Sun Suncrest as low density residential.

And if you look at that overall master plan community, because of all the open space, they have one unit per acre. But each neighborhood in each pod is not low density. You have townhomes. You have small lot. You have large lot. You have a variety. So having our general plan map actually reflect what is built. So that's one thing we did. We did not analyze or change land uses for undeveloped properties or properties that may be subject to redevelopment, choosing instead to have individual property owners come in and make that request.

So it wouldn't be safe to say based on what you just explained the fact let's say that was highly contested tonight, right, with that first application. And and we were giving an explanation of why we were saying yes to that. We wouldn't would would we or would we not want to say, hey. Well, the general plan or land use is already in line with this if you notice, and all they're having to ask for is one instead of two pieces to this to be approved. Yes. One is already right in line with that. Would that be a valid it's not that it's an argument, but would that be a valid valid statement to kind of bundle up in there?

It it would. And if you look at the findings in our code and in the staff report, it being in compliance with the general plan

Yeah. You'll always point that out. You'll point that out saying this is already compliant there.

And Yes.

Like you just mentioned, we've now just let this come full circle as as suspected or planned or hoped for that if the applicant wants to change it, this is all they'd have to come in and do. It's already in line with what we want. It's not that you're saying yes to it, but you're saying this is kinda what we were hoping for.

Yes.

Okay. Yep. And I might take it just back a little further, a little more basic. But, yes, the general general plan plan at at its at its basis basis is is advisory, advisory. And it is a document that's going to describe what we want it to be, what the city wants in this area versus that area.

So not to get to the very specific one there. There may be opportunities as we go along through things to make a change to either the map or some of the general plan goals. Maybe there's a goal or a principle in there that doesn't maybe align with things going forward. And the other thing is with a lot of these applications, we do ask the applicant. It's a requirement.

If you see their answers to our criteria at the end of the exhibit and the staff report, you'll see that they're asked to even respond. How does this comply with the general plan? So that's one of those ways we can use the general plan elements during deliberation is to look at maybe what they've answered or look at the general plan as as well. So it's a good document to get to know. So if you're looking for a justification to to say yes to something or maybe one to say no to something, you can use the general plan and those aspirations or goals in that to back that up.

So there's there's not just the map. That's probably what you'll see more often that we deal with. The kind of the maybe broad brush, not really zoning, but land use types that go into that map. And then different zones may compatible with those different areas on the general plan land use map. But there's also additional goals about housing, about environment, about I'm trying to remember a few of them off the top of my head, and they're not there.

But, you know, just about the economics and some of the other policies and goals of the city. So we can also look to use those in making findings or bolstering the decision. So moving to the third one. This one's kind of a fun one because I know we sometimes do it. Asking applicants to make redesigns at the meeting. And, of course, this could make things easier efficient and work better for everyone. Right?

Right? What what what might

what could possibly go wrong? Right? Ideas?

Well, they can adopt what you recommend, and then it's a disaster. And they come back to the city saying, you recommended this.

You did. It's just a lawsuit. It's just a lawsuit. Right? I mean, it's basically saying, well, we did what you said and then Yeah. Yeah. That's one. Can you give us an advice on how that should be worded then? Because it happens frequently. Right? Like, well, hey. How about we just do this, and how about we do that? What's what just help

us the

the decorum on how we just push that back.

So and

and by the way, when we I think it's when we say, well, let's just table it and let's just not vote on it and let's just send it back to the drawing board.

Is that what you're talking about here? Yep. Exactly. There.

That's it. Fast forward it.

There you go. Went sorry. What?

I know. There you go. I said, yeah.

That's why I said, when is the continuance appropriate? When it's allowed. If it's not allowed, which in in the case of a lot of ours, we've got to make decisions. So but opening it up could lead to some additional confusion. It could open up the final decision to some additional risk. Someone could disagree with it, say it wasn't noticed or that they weren't planning on that, might have some other risk of an appeal.

Todd, can I interject for a second?

Yeah. Spencer, please Most of

the time, staff is pretty good at finding out whether an applicant's request is going to be in violation of the code or is not gonna meet some kind of criteria for a deviation. And most of the time, staff is pretty good at talking applicants off of the ledge of let's go to planning commission and let the planning commission decide. If we're unable to do that and they show up and they have something that violates our code or doesn't meet the deviation requirement, I would rather take the appeal where you have evidence before you to say no than to say, go back to the drawing board and come back to us with these things that we wanna see. And then if they come back and they still don't meet the code, now they say, we've done exactly what you've asked, and now you're asking us to do more. So vote no the first time, and and then they can find out for real that staff is on their side trying to help them be compliant before they show up before this body.

And then when they show up before this body with application that is noncompliant, they have nobody but themselves to blame for getting denied. And if they have an appeal, it's super easy for me to say, here's the staff report. Here's the record. These are the things that the planning commissioner said. That's why we have substantial evidence to uphold the planning commission's decision. And appeals and variance hearing officer, you need to uphold their decision, and it wins every time.

Perfect. So if I get specific on something that's in the past Mhmm. Mhmm. Mary one time just popped off with something that was absolutely the case but not the case. And that one was one that we struggled with for almost the whole thirty minutes talking about this should be a development agreement or something to that effect. Mhmm. So you see right there, if we would have said, fine. That's the reason no very quickly. Great. We hear it all out, and then we put a no instead of, hey.

This needs to be continued. Why don't you go back and and come go work out of of, you know, some kind of an agreement development agreement outside of here. That was that was one example right that I'm like Mhmm. And just kinda we were just kinda holding our heads going, are you kidding?

One thing to keep in mind, under our code, planning commission can approve, approve with conditions, or deny. So you really don't have the authority to just continue an item?

Well, that's the thing. It wasn't yes. It wasn't even it was a to forward a positive or negative recommend. Was legislative.

Yeah.

So at that point, it's just say, yeah. We're negative on this, and here's why.

Yeah.

Push it forward. And then the city council couldn't hear. This is why they gave us a negative recommendation. It still moves forward. Not continued, not tabled, not shoved.

Got it. Yeah.

So it's not that we're trying to just ram ram things through or push things through. It's that if it gets to here, it's it's been vetted to that point. And it's either Mhmm. It's their decision to be here. Yeah. Period. Right?

I mean, it's never

it it's that applicant's decision to be there.

Administrative applications like site plans, subdivisions, I would say 98% of them that come to you, they fully comply with the code. There's always gonna be a a one off where there's either something we need to condition or we're calling the applicant to say you really need to pull the item off the agenda. And we do have those conversations.

Because they get one shot at that if that's for an approval. They actually get two if it's legislative, right? Administrative stuff. Got it.

Yeah. And tied to this, but this is the so when what what might be appropriate? Now I'm not saying redesign. We've had some occasions. Occasions. So like Jennifer mentioned, approve with conditions. We'll have some listed conditions there. There have been a couple of instances where what the applicant is telling staff and what we've got in that report and what we've got in those conditions based on that isn't what they present over the podium here. And sometimes you may need to look at modifying those conditions. It's not necessarily a redesign.

It may be that request. Does this work for you if we change this condition to this versus that? Not that's not necessarily a redesign of the project trying to say, well, if you move this here or you move that there, change these setbacks. That's more the redesign. So just keep that in mind.

There are some appropriate times where, because of what comes up in the meeting, it might not always fall right in line with those conditions or those findings in the staff report. So just wanna make sure you're aware. You're always those are our suggested conditions, suggested findings. If you feel the need to modify them, that's why kind of that middle suggested motion is in there to help you do that. Other questions on that before I move on? Hearing none. So since we have good intentions and we've got a few related things.

Great moments in unintended consequences. Part one, window wealth. The year, 1696. The problem, Britain needs money. The solution? Tax windows. Windows increase with relative wealth and are easily observed and verified from afar. A perfect revenue generator is born. Sounds like a great idea with the best of intentions. What could possibly go wrong?

To avoid higher taxes, houses were built with fewer windows, and existing windows were bricked up. Tenants were charged as single dwellings, putting them in higher tax bracket, which led to rising rents or windowless apartments. The lack of ventilation and sunlight led to greater disease, stunted growth, and one rather irate Charles Dickens. It took more than one hundred fifty years for politicians to see the error of their ways, perhaps because their view was blocked by bricks. Great moments and unintended consequences. Good intention.

There's one.

And now, great moments and unintended consequences. Part one, window wealth.

Oh, that didn't

do it.

There we go. There we are. Okay. Making sure I've got to the next one here. So that maybe number four pitfall, just inadequate findings or motion language. We try and provide those for you. You can, like I just had mentioned, go away from those. But I know Spencer has told us many times, but what makes a finding defensible?

Rattling off one or two or three of the outlined items there that you've given us. So for example, we denied a home occupation. It would be based on the that it was unable mitigate one of the four factors or two of the four factors or whatever was most mentioned there.

Kendra, I'm gonna ask you specifically. What's the burden on appeal?

Know on appeal for

one of these.

I should know.

But So what makes what makes it defensible is also the same burden on appeal. It's a substantial evidence standard. A substantial evidence standard means quantity and quality of evidence that could allow a reasonable person similarly situated to come to the same conclusion that you did. So it's not nothing, but it's also not more likely than not. It's just gotta be enough that somebody could look at the same facts and reasonably conclude the same conclusion that you came to. So cite those things. That makes your finding defensible. And if they're not cited specifically, because

obviously the public doesn't know any of that, you know, they they don't have that staff report in front of us. Is that what helps with that too is pointing that out? Or I mean, it should really just that point between the applicant and the city. It doesn't matter what the what the general public is thinking. Right? So we're just what what I'm asking is how do we word that? Is it enough to just say supported by the findings in the staff report? I have argued that citing to the findings in

the staff report is meets the substantial evidence standard. And I've not been I've not lost on that on appeal before.

Okay. So that's a great not a script, but a script. So that's that's that's the script that we would use is we would do that. And if we wanted to, we could get more specific, but that would suffice.

Yeah. If you wanna the telemarketer approach and follow the script, I'm happy with

that too. Perfect. Perfect. I

would say, you know, the applications I've seen that you guys have denied have been typically home occupations. A lot of times it's been, you know, different testimony from the applicant during the hearing than maybe what they told staff, maybe what's in the staff report. So as you're having that discussion and asking questions to the applicant, if it is different than what's in the report that's leading you to a denial, then you're gonna wanna make sure you have findings that are are referencing those concerns.

So, Jennifer, we've had the the most typical change that we make is they say, oh, yeah. I won't do that then. Right? Like, because they'll see that they'll start to see the pushback and saying, oh, man. Really? One car in front? You know? Could you get down to zero cars? And be like, fine. I won't have any cars at the property, for example. That's

not in

the staff report. That's not anywhere, but they're saying, hey. I'm gonna do that. Tell us what not to step in there.

So, I mean, you have the ability to add conditions. The criteria to approve a conditional use permit is are there detrimental effects, and can those detrimental effects be mitigated? So if during your review, you're finding, you know, the proposed parking is a detrimental effect and the mitigation is you're not going to allow that, you can condition that. That does give the staff teeth to then go through code enforcement if they continue to have that parking, they're in violation. There is a provision to remove or unapprove a conditional use permit, revoke a conditional use permit.

If they are in violation of those conditions, if we've gone through a court enforcement and they continue to be in violation, we can revoke it, and then that would also result in the revocation of, you know, their business license that tie that's tied to that conditional

use permit.

But you've seen that where they'll hear the public clamor or the comments, and then they'll say, fine. I won't do that, and I'll give up on that. And it's possibly not very often, but possibly something that wasn't listed in there as one of the Correct. It it it literally was brought up at the meeting. Yeah. And then the applicant's like, oh, I didn't that was a blind spot for me. Great. I'm gonna take care of that. And that's when we've had great motions put together that are adding those to to the conditions.

And you want That's

not redesigning. That's just just we discovered it. Correct. We've okay. Alright.

Yeah. It's it's mitigating those detrimental effects. And I think the public hearings we have with conditional use permits are really important because a lot of times the neighbors do show up and say this is what I've been seeing on a daily basis which may or may not line up with what the applicant's been saying.

All right. Maybe it goes there. All right. Number five, allowing public hearings to go off the rails. A couple questions. What tools are available for keeping order and relevant versus irrelevant comments? And, of course, we need to go visit the citizens of Pawnee first.

I will say, Andrew, you do a wonderful job.

Yes. I got some meals right. Yeah. I gotta lie to myself. Packed inside. Get out of

What I hear when I'm being yelled at is people caring loudly at

me. Now,

I have a few things

I wanna say about Laura Linney. There is a disturbing lack of benches in Rancho Park. I wanna sit more.

I found a sandwich in one of your parks, and I want to know why it didn't have mayonnaise. What's so funny?

Oh. What are you, some kind of moron? Why don't you have hand dryers in the park bathrooms? There's so much more sanitary than paper towels. Anyone knows that.

Ham and mayonnaise. Ham and mayonnaise. Ham and mayonnaise.

For turnip. Except for turnip.

My daughter's five.

Oh, your daughter is an idiot. Her daughter is an idiot. Her daughter is an idiot.

Oh, Her daughter is an idiot. No. No. She's not.

I made this in one of your pottery classes. It's terrible.

If sugar is so bad, how come Jesus made it taste so good?

My bird is missing. I need permit to post signs.

Well, let me just look for that form.

If there's no time, he can fly.

If the government shut down, who's gonna stop Al Qaeda?

But isn't all food bad for you? I've been eating lasagna and muffins every day of my life for forty years, and I feel terrible.

How do you like it? How do you like that? How much you're holding coffee?

So why should the bill of rights be in the official time capsule that this painting of my dog is in time capsule seven?

I mean, where are my kid supposed to play? The Rock Quarry? There's rocks in there.

There's a sign at Rampstead Park that says do not drink the sprinkler water. So I made some tea with it and now I have an infection. Sir? Sir, are are are are you listening to me, sir? Sir, I'm talking to you. Sir, sir, are you aware

That was good.

That there is waste in your water system.

What's so bad about corn syrup? It's natural. Corn

Yep. I was gonna queue up about the two minute mark. So back to our presentation. Oh, I got two of them up. A lot of irrelevant comments in that clip. How do we keep those to a minimum? I know Andrew does a great job. What other things might we do besides just having Andrew?

I've know well, I've noticed a couple So, you know, the every once in while, I have to tell the there's tell people there's no clapping. So you guys can always give me a rhyme reminder. If I don't do it, make sure you're always welcome to pop up and just say, hey. And, also, you know, when we have a big group like this, sometimes there's a tendency to clap or cheer. We won't have any of that, or we'll just shut the public hearing down. So that's a good reminder. I was here when Drew before me had to threaten that there was a magic button underneath here that he had to call the the Draper PDN. Right? He goes, I'll hit the button here, you know, and they were I I won't say who that, but if you were here, that was a long time ago. Yeah.

Anyway, there's that. And then so so you I'm giving you permission just to remind me to do that. And then also there's another awkward moment when they ask questions. Right? So when they're asking questions so I think they're gonna be a little bit better explanation on what this is, what public comment is. It's like you're welcome to ask questions. We won't answer them here in a dialogue. We'll just take notes and ask the applicant to answer the questions for you. And so those are some of the things. But going off the rails, I don't know.

Have we had any? Think you do a really good job

I of had a I had a crazy grandma growing up. It was good training.

I do I'm pretty And then I think the other thing you do really off the rails is when we know it's gonna be something that's hotly contested, and everybody wants to get up and say the same thing. You have a great way of saying, please don't get up and repeat the same concern about traffic, safety, wildlife, whatever. If we've heard it once, we understand it to be a concern, and we don't need to hear it 50 times. But you do a very good job of doing that.

Thank you. And I think one of the things that helps mitigate that is if they're if they know we're helpful. I'll allow it. I'll We'll clap. No claps. Alright, Bonnie. So one of the things that helps mitigate that, though, is if they know we're taking notes on that. Right? So if somebody says, hey. Traffic, traffic, traffic. If they know we're taking notes on that. So it's always and you're welcome to do it too. But just to to bring those questions up for the applicant afterwards to say, hey. Traffic was brought up, and noise was brought up, and light pollution was brought up. And so that everybody and and it's I think it's really important for these for everybody to just be heard. So sometimes I let that just go on and let the same thing be said over and over again. I think people get it. They're like, okay. Really? You know, the the eyes start to roll even out. You can see their eyes rolling. Yeah.

And and I would always recommend let people have their their time. You know, we we have had a past chair that would actually interrupt people. It just made them mad. Yeah. You know, the goal being we've heard this. Do you have something unique to say? We want people to have their three minutes. I think having the clock does help Yeah. Because it limits the the time to that three minutes. You're a little spielty, give it the first public hearing.

If there's a lot of people in the room, maybe every public hearing before you start it, give that spiel. That way that gives more time for everybody to actually hear it and maybe digest that they have three minutes that you're not gonna answer questions, that kind of thing.

Yeah. Just to make it less awkward because that is that awkward where I'm just smiling at them blinking, you know, and they're asking me three questions. The irrelevant, do you do any of you remember the gentleman that got up? It's only happened once. And he got up and talked about the prisoners' right to vote. Had nothing to do with anything.

I remember that.

Yeah. And it's like, you know what? That's totally legit. Right? Because it's a public hearing. They talk about whatever they want. No. Oh, okay. Great. See, so this training. No. Coach me on that. The Let interest

that happen again. The interesting thing about a public hearing is that the public hearing comments do need to be relevant. And you you could theoretically cut somebody off and say, alright. Now you gotta get off that train of thought about this prisoner of right to vote because that's not relevant to anything we're discussing. We are not a body that considers that. So please talk about something that's relevant to the issue before us, which is this tax amendment or this conditional use permit or whatever else we have a public hearing for.

Okay, Spencer. Let me take it one let me change it. What if it wasn't prisoners at and they're right to vote? What if it was the way that our parks are landscaped or something like that that we do I mean, it's not relevant to anything on the agenda item. And you notice I say it all the time. Anything about this agenda item who'd like it to address address this.

Yeah. Even if it's relevant to what you do as a planning commission because that could be part of a planning aspect. Well, we have that If I come in for a CUP for for a a salon and somebody gets up to give a public comment and starts giving a public comment on our cross access provision in in parking and deviations. It has nothing to do with home occupational conditional use permit for a salon. You can interrupt them and say, I'm sorry. That's not really relevant to our conversation. Would you like to to weigh in on Spencer's salon?

Perfect. Okay. And this is not an open invitation to invite your cousin to come in here and punk me at the next meeting.

You can also remind people, the city council does have a general public comment before every meeting or at the beginning of every meeting. So if they have just a general comment about whatever random thing

Oh, that's good to know.

They can go to council.

So it's after the pledge and before the meeting gets started? Is that when that is? Okay. Oh, that's great to know because now they feel heard

before the consent item. But Yeah. After the pledge.

Now they feel heard hey. Maybe this is better better forum for this would be the city council meeting. Mhmm. You can go in there general general comment On the topic

of one lady who was, like, telling everybody that she loved them.

I think that was just because she was upset that the neighbors were fighting, and we need to all love each other because it's just love everybody. Yeah. And we're like, okay. Oh, I just let it go. That's fine.

That's just fine. On on the topic of relevant versus irrelevant comments, I'll I'll make this addition. After a certain number of times hearing about the same issue that might be relevant, repetition makes it irrelevant. Perfect. And and you're free to ask somebody before they start, okay. We've heard about traffic, and we've heard about how much you don't like your developer neighbor. So can you please limit your comments to anything else that you have that's not not inclusive of that? Yeah. And if they have something prepared in their in their hands, like, if there's something that they're reading off of, they can

go and they look and

look down on it. And then if they say something that's one of those two things or one of the things that you ask them not to speak about, they just end up with egg on their face. Right? And then you look professional. You look like you're trying to keep the meeting going, but they're the ones who look silly. So if we have a big giant group of people, it's preferable to just say, okay, every once in a while, hey. You've got this. Limit your comments to not this and not this. Right before they give their three minutes and dare them to speak about something else. Yeah. And I

think, again, I I think that kind of places itself if they if they know we're taking note. And then we're if someone's asking about traffic and they know that the applicant is going to address the questions that are brought up, I I I mean, I've seen it. People are just they're self aware enough. Some some aren't, but most are. They're self aware enough to just say, yeah. I'm not gonna ask about that again because I know I was promised this is gonna get addressed. And I I would encourage everyone up here just to make a a small stack of just what what's been talked about. So in case the chair misses it or something like that happens, then you can say, oh, and by the way, there was also one more for the applicant. It was about, you know, light pollution. We forgot to talk about that or the height or whatever.

So that's good. This all good. But thanks for giving us permission that that's what what can be cut off. K?

Hey. I was also kinda wondering at some of these contentious meetings. Like, do you guys ever have them just line up? Because sometimes waiting for people to sit down and stand up and then come to the podium is like

it's like it's a while.

Would it would it be just for for the flow of the meeting?

So that's what So, like, just have them come up, like, one after another instead of them waiting for them to get up.

And Yeah.

They're all waiting for everyone else to go first. And yeah.

Yeah. We could. I mean, if it gets I've I the only time I've seen a line, Christine, is I was at a city council meeting, and it was for the special. It was when Marsha Vaudrey was getting I I don't wanna say voted in, but it's when they had an opening or they had a a vacancy. And people oh, you know what it was? It was people who were coming in

We line had up in a specific we had them line up

and sit in a specific seat. That's what it was.

Planned it all so that so that one row was one row would get up and stand in line, and then the next row would get up and stand in line when the when the last person speaking from the previous row got up.

And they each got two minutes. That was a unique meeting. That was that was but, yeah, you're right. So that's something that if again, if we see that it's just a a big it's stalling the meeting out, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Just say you're wanted to invite people to stand up and get in line to speak on a topic so we wouldn't be playing that game where somebody's trying to go last and get the very last word, you could set that timer.

Tucker them out for their three minutes. I mean, they'll just be they'll I'll be tuckered out. Well, what you could do is

you could set a timer for three minutes and say, you have three minutes to get in line if you're not in line by the

time. We'll see if we get we'll see if we get that hard nose. We these are my neighbors, man. We gotta be nice to these guys, so we'll see. We'll see.

Yeah. People can follow instructions.

Yeah. They can.

Good. I do wanna get you out of here tonight too. So Well, but I love this. Move on.

All the discourses into the twenty minutes. Correct? That was

that was all of it. Perfect. So Number six. Number six here, of course, ex parte contact and conflict disclosure. I know we go over this beginning of each year. So we will go over that more when it comes to needing to fill out all your conflict of disclosure forms at the beginning of the year. Ex parte contact. I know we've kind of gone over it in the past. Spencer goes over it kind of annually as well. What that really we need to make sure is, you know, you live here in the community.

Some of these people are your next door neighbors. They're gonna wanna come up and talk to you and ask you about the thing they saw on the agenda or the yellow sign they saw in the yard. Do your best to just kinda tell them I can't talk about it. Anyone have other things that they've done or or suggestions or ideas you've used to kinda work through those type of discussions? Have any of

you guys ever had a call from somebody about an item? I I have. I have. And so the what worked I actually talked to Mike about this, right, years ago. I'm like, hey. I got some dude calling me. He wants to meet with me. Right? He wants to meet with me, talk all about it. And I I called Mike, and I said, hey.

Well, I just told him I just directed him to Jennifer or to staff on that because I I have absolutely no input on it, and I would ill advise them. And secondly, I said, now the city council is a little bit different there, and I I'm under the understanding that you could meet with them because they're elected. So I checked that with Mike, and that seemed to be okay. Any input on that, on other ways to handle that? This is Mike Barker we were talking about.

My yeah. My recommendation is to just say, as a member of the commission, you're not allowed to talk about it. But here's, you know, the contact information for your staff. And you can give them either my contact or Todd's contact information, and we're happy to talk to anybody.

Yeah. So and that that was the that gentleman came from Sandy, and he said Sandy has did you guys know this? I I knew this before he mentioned this. But Sandy, I guess they set their city council people in a in office space and have open walk in just just yell at me hours. Sue. Yeah. Yeah. Like Pawnee Pawnee Otters. Right? Yeah. So that's when he mentioned that, I said, yeah. That's not me. That's not us. We're appointed. We're not elected. And if if that's, you know, if that's a thing in Draper, I don't know of it. But the but direct them back to staff.

Correct. Yeah.

And and we'll get emails too. And the emails I mean, you can do one or two things. You just don't reply and look flaky, or you just say, you know, I'm gonna have to direct you back to staff as

a commissioner. If you do get emails, forward it to staff. You know, the public notices that go out have our contact information, staff planner's information for the public to provide us the public comment so that we can make sure you all of you get all of the public comment that's been submitted on an item. So if somebody contacts you, forward it to us. We'll respond to them.

And you do a good job at this, but sometimes don't you get emails like right now? You'll get them right now and the meetings now.

Mhmm. Right? Usually, it's before, but I've literally gotten an email from a guy two minutes after his public comment.

So how how appropriate or inappropriate is it to say, hey. Can you give us just just five minutes here? We're gonna read through these emails that just came in. Is that appropriate? Yeah. To take meeting time and just say give us just a minute? Yes.

K. You know?

Because that that felt there was one. I think Siobhan mentioned it. There was one, and he's like, oh, there's, like, like, four four emails had come in in between whenever and and the meeting. But they were they were given to us, but then we couldn't read them real quick. So that's appropriate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be appropriate. Okay.

Either before or after the public We did get some last minute comments that have been provided on paper, and we

wanted to a check to read and say, know what? We haven't been able to read those. We're gonna take three minutes. Can I just take a break? Can I just excuse people and take a break and say, hey? This one

I would

I don't want I think break goes I think a break because flows over. It's a two minute break. Takes ten minutes. I won't come back for

ten minutes.

So let's let him sit here and have that awkward pause while

we read.

For you guys to be

Yeah.

Reading those, then I wouldn't take a break. I'd just say give us a couple minutes, and K. And then you guys can review it.

I agree. We're gonna try and send those comments out to you on email when we can ahead of the meeting, couple hours before. Sometimes it gets to the point where we're gonna print them and bring them here, especially when we get some, you know, same day late arriving ones. And then just yeah. Again, remember when you do if you do end up in a ex parte contact situation kinda thing, besides referring to us, just remain neutral.

Don't you know, they're probably trying to get a feel for which way they think you're gonna side. Try to remain neutral as best you can. This will help preserve kind of that due process, right, for everyone involved. And then I think Andrew brought up a great point there. If if some ex parte contact happens, let us know, either staff or the attorneys. We can help guide you and if there's any kind of disclosure that might need to occur as a result of that contact. For the most part, probably nothing. But sometimes maybe something hey. I ran this person. They're a friend.

We had a conversation. It came up. We we tabled it. You know? And things like that. The other thing is then just with the conflict disclosures. Do your best to look at the agenda ahead of the meeting. If you've got a personal business interest in any of those items, you may need to recuse yourself. So, again, same thing. Let us know. Contact the attorneys, and we can help assist with that too.

So I had a weird situation with this, and this might happen to you, might not because you guys have clients and whatever. I looked at the agenda item, didn't have any conflicts. My boss shows up that runs at the time, I was running a Keller Williams, and the owner of, like, four Keller Williams came in. And I text him. I said, what are you doing here? He goes, nothing. I'm just listening to listening to public comment. You know what I mean? Because he's a developer. So long story short, I didn't have to recuse him in anything. Also, he gets up for public comment on one of the agenda items. And I think I had to say, hey. This is this I work for this guy. So what do you do in that situation when it's just right on the fly? It's numb nobody on the agenda, and it's not just like what we talked about tonight, a friend in the neighborhood. Yeah.

Spencer may have some something to say there too, but I would just say I know the answer is nothing wrong with

about it, but what are we

additional disclosure above maybe what we have to do, Keeping keeping it kind of in the eye test if you will. But I don't know if you had something, Spencer.

Tell your boss this is personal time and quit bothering you when you're off the

I like it.

I think some, you know, somebody you know being at the podium for public comment is not not a a big deal. I mean, you guys do live in the community. We've seen applications come in where the application is in your neighborhood. You know half the people there giving public comment. So just because you know somebody, that doesn't necessarily make a conflict.

We did have a previous commissioner, Scott. His company well, it was an IT company, but Yeah. Work and had a contract, yeah, with an attorney. So anytime that attorney came representing an applicant, he recused himself because he had a financial connection to that applicant's attorney that was representing that application.

Is there any conflict in commissioners going to a city council meeting and giving public comment?

If it's gone to the planning commission, I would not recommend doing that.

Interesting. Okay. Will say no because you're still members of the community and you're still able to weigh in. Now So you are able to? You can you can weigh in in this meeting as planning commissioners, but you you can wear a different hat when you go to city council to give the public comment.

And you would never make the folly of saying as a Draper City Planning Commissioner, I say this.

Don't do that. Yeah.

Don't do that.

Saying as Joe Schmo that lives over here has lived here for twenty years, I really would love this or hate this.

That said, you have a unique opportunity to get more than three minutes on the record in this meeting. Yeah. So don't waste your shot in this meeting just to have to go to city council and say what you think as a as a private citizen there.

Well, the the the reason what I'm thinking of Spencer here is that I would actually say something completely different. My comment would be very different in that meeting. That's what

I would do. And you're welcome to make those those comments that are different and maybe even contradicting because you might feel obligated to to you might feel one way as a as a citizen, but you're obligated to say a different thing as a plan.

I wanna stay more neutral here, then, I mean, it's my town too. I I if I feel strongly about something, you're saying that's okay to go there. But as Joe Citizen and nothing more?

Yes.

Got it. Now, Andrew, to go back to your hypothetical issue but well, you're not so hypothetical issue of your boss showing up. Your boss is a citizen potentially or property owner in the city is welcome to make a comment before this body. The decisions that you make as a planning commissioner cannot be based on public clamor. And if the input that your boss had was valuable input to consider on the record for to make a decision, we should hear that, and we should take that into consideration even though you work for that person.

Now that said, there are some ethical guidelines that are in effect. One of them being that you if your if your boss was here on behalf of an applicant, at that point, you have to recuse yourself.

Yeah. No. It was it was literally, what are you doing? I was dry looking at one of my properties and thought I'd stop in. That was it. And then he liked something that one of the applications, he's like, oh, yeah. I'll talk about this for three minutes. So that was that.

But, anyway, we got that all settled. So alright. Number seven? Number eight? Yeah. Number seven here. Seven. Pitfall to avoid, failing to read the staff report or review the packet. We already went over a bunch of these so I'm not going go into a lot of detail here. Just the way the staff report's organized, you're going have some background info, some information on the general plan, the zone and its purpose.

Then there'll be the more detailed analysis about the ordinance requirements and what the criteria for review or approval are. We'll have those suggested conditions in there, suggested motions, and then, also make make sure to look at the exhibits. We we tack them on to the end, but, and I know if you're printing it out and looking at it, they might not look great. But, hopefully, as a PDF, you're looking at it digitally, you should be able to get in and and see some of the details on some of those larger plans. Then if you have questions on things, come prepared.

More than happy to answer those at the meeting. Number eight, not understanding different application types and processes. So we go over this a lot, the legislative versus administrative where we have zoning land use map amendments that you're making recommendations on to the council. You're not making that final decision. I think you're all pretty good at that. You understand that. But sometimes, you know, we'll have the zoning text amendments, those you want to make recommendations on as well. But then we've got kind of the two I see. We got conditional use permits and site plan review. And sometimes that gets a little fuzzy especially if they're coming in together.

What part's the conditional use? What part's the site plan? So if you have a question on it or maybe we haven't explained something well in the presentation, do ask. Because if there's confusion on why we have conditions at the end, we can there may be some conditions of an approval for a site plan, but that's not the same as mitigating factors for a conditional use permit. So trying to keep those two a little separated a little bit will help.

Of course, subdivisions have very specific state law standards. You have to approve them if they meet ordinance. So sometimes it's kind of more of just going through the motions here with those. With the exception of a subdivision amendment where you do have to have a finding that there's good cause for the amendment. So same thing even just similar applications can have different level of review and standards for approval. And of course, I put the last one in there, deviations. We have them in our ordinance. Almost every deviation has completely different standards for what you need to approve it. So keep keep track of those. We did have a couple of those with the the storage yard tonight.

One of them kind of actually was in both courts. The other was just in one. And then number nine, and we kinda went over this a little bit with the citizens upon e debating with the public, make sure we're maintaining the decorum. When should staff answer instead? Ideas

on that.

No. No. No. No ideas?

When hey. Whenever we don't know. Whenever you don't know? As much as possible, I guess. So

I I think when you mentioned earlier, again, if they're asking questions and they're looking to you to make answers, refer them over to staff. We can answer them after or I think we do a good job of this. Hey, that's a question we don't have an answer to. We'll ask the applicant. We'll keep a list of these. But, yeah, when to ask staff if they're especially this goes back to the they're making changes on the fly, to get you trying to wheel and deal and ask you to try and prove something different than what came in with the staff report. That might be a good occasion as well to ask staff.

Or I'll I'll add to that. We and this was, you know, the rezone earlier tonight. We had a resident who was had questions on access and things like that. And it's too soon to answer those questions because we're at the rezone stage, not the design stage. A response besides just saying we we don't have that information. It's too soon could be that she could get with staff to find out what the standards are.

If we were giving a response during public comment. Right? But for that one, we after. Right. Right. Afterwards saying, hey, that was a question that was posed. It's too early for that, but you're welcome to ask after the meeting Correct. About what the standards would be.

Mhmm. Okay.

Our number 10, we talked a little bit about it with the ex parte kind of contact, but talking outside the hearing. Emails, text side conversations, what is okay, what is not. For the most part, if it's discussing an item that has has not yet been presented on the agenda, it's not okay. And then like Jen mentioned a little bit earlier tonight as well, if we have one that has come to you and maybe hasn't gone all the way through the council process, might not be a good idea to talk too much about that either unless there may be some procedural questions. You're always welcome to talk with us as staff or or with the attorneys.

Reason for that, again, risk of undermining the process. Something could come up on a pill. It gets pushed back, and then it's gotta come before you. And then maybe we've there's been other conversations outside of there that run the risk of violating some due process. So try and keep that to a minimum. Know we we occasionally will talk about things or or ask questions about how something procedurally happened during the meeting, after the meeting, but just be aware of that as well. And, of course, I'm not gonna go clear clear through the end. We'll we'll cut it here. But, of course, just some more of the best intentions with unintended consequences. Consequences.

Now great moments in unintended consequences. Part one, housing costs. The year 2021. The problem? Rent is expensive in Saint Paul, Minnesota. The solution, limit residential rent increases to 3% a year even if there's a change in occupancy. Sounds like a great idea with the best of intentions. What could possibly go go wrong? Wrong? The initiative did not account for inflation, which, you know, is kind of a thing. And unlike most rent control initiatives, the new law also applies to new apartment buildings, discouraging housing construction and investment, which is why multi building permits are down over 80% in Saint Paul while ramping up in the rest of the state, which explains why Saint Paul is the patron saint

of

tent makers. Great moments in unintended consequence. And now

Nope. I'm trying to cut that one.

And now.

So we'll cut cut it on this last one. I didn't get to all of it,

but And now.

One more and unintended consequences. Part one, black liquor bonanza. The year, 2005. The problem, fossil fuel consumption is too high, and biodiesel consumption is too low. The solution, create a generous tax credit for companies who blend fossil fuel with environmentally friendly biofuel.

Sounds like a great idea with the best of intentions. What could possibly go wrong? Turns out, paper companies were already using a pure biofuel known as black liquor, which is extracted from wood during the paper making process. It's a super convenient energy source to run paper plants and mills, but only blended fuels were eligible for the tax credit. So paper companies bought fossil fuel they didn't need, added it to the biofuel they were already using, and instantly qualified for very generous blended alternative fuel credits.

Exactly the opposite of the tax credit's intent, but sometimes it all boils down to paper. Part two, billboard bans. The year, 1968. The problem, billboards cluttering the scenic vistas of Vermont. The solution, ban bill boards.

Sounds like a great idea with the best of intentions. What could possibly go wrong? As the billboards came down, something new popped up. A 12 foot gorilla holding up a Volkswagen, a giant squirrel in a striped bathing suit, a 19 foot genie holding a carpet, a veritable zoo of gargantuan concrete sculptures, all in the name of public art. It might seem cute until a development dispute with a local bureaucracy results in a 700 middle finger on a 16 foot pole. Enjoy the view, Vermont.

Alright. Thank you. We'll cut it there. I know I've kept you longer than we needed to. Sure. Alright.

If we

couldn't This would come the year.

Towards $20.26 credits. Correct?

We're almost there. Okay. But, again, just to to kind of end this for the year as well, thank you so much for all you do for the city, for your service. We really do appreciate it. The last little bit with this is we as staff are going to try and bring what we think is going to work with some of the best intentions and some of our best practices.

But it is kind of up to you to point out if there might be an unintended consequence and make a good recommendation to the council on things like text amendments and things like that as we bring them through. So appreciate you for that and thank you. I know there are a few of you that still have a little bit of training to do. I'll try and get some new emails out because some of you probably met your training at this point for the year. And thank you to everyone who has already completed that. Any other questions or things

I need to go over? Great job, Todd. Thank you.

I would you.

I was just gonna remind everybody our last meeting for the year is next week.

Perfect. Great. Well, I see no other business on our agenda. So that means

I move we adjourned.

Alright. Adjourned. See you next time, guys.

Most of us don't know how to do that without