Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Welcome to our Planning Commission meeting here at Draper City. We welcome you guys. Today's date is 04/23/2026. I'm Andrew Adams, and welcome all the other commissioners up here on the stand that are taking time out of their night. We also want to thank the staff for getting everything ready on our reports throughout the week, putting up postings and meeting with the applicants. And also we want to greet everyone here that's visiting or just attending or also an applicant. We can get things started. Our agenda is posted online and also in the back, the paper handouts. Jennifer, are there any changes to the agenda tonight that we know of?

No. Okay. So we'll move forward as post two of those or to approve the planning commissions for 02/12/2026. The other is for 02/26/2026. Who will give us a motion to, approve those minutes unless there's anything that needs to be discussed?

I'm happy to make that motion.

Go ahead, Mary.

I move we approve the Planning Commission meeting minutes for 02/12/2026, and 02/26/2026.

Great. Thanks, Mary. Who'll second that motion?

I'll second.

Thanks, Susan. Let's put it to a vote. So, Mary, how do you vote?

Yes.

Susan?

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

Laura? Yes. And Gary? Yes. Alright. Yes. Yes. Phew. The nail biter right there. All right. Well, those are approved and they will be approved. Thank you. All right. Let's go ahead and move on to our next action item. This is the Canyon Crest Medical Condo.

It's the Second Amendment Platt amendment extension request. It's on the request of Cameron Duncan representing Canyon Crest South LLC, Canyon Crest eleven thousand eight LLC and SHW Associates Enterprise LLC and Canyon Crest Medical Condominium Homeowners Association. A six month extension to the Platt amendment approval for Canyon Crest Medical Condo second amendment located at 1100762 South State Street. The application is for twenty twenty five-twenty one SUB, and our staff contact, Maryann Pickering. So go ahead, Maryann.

Thank you. This is a vicinity map showing the location of the property here in the blue. This is Lone Peak Hospital. For reference, State Street and I-fifteen. A detailed view of the property. The land use category is here, and then the zoning is CC. And this was one that you actually reviewed a year ago tomorrow. So it does expire tomorrow. It has not been recorded yet. What they're asking for is the six month extension.

This is the existing plat as it is today, and they're reconfiguring the office spaces, creating some more units, and reconfiguring some common space. They've run into some delays with their purchase agreements and getting some signatures, so they need that extra six months to get it recorded.

Great. Thanks, Mary Anne. Any questions for staff on that? This is not a public hearing, so any debate or deliberation on that before we put a motion together on whether we extend that or not? All right. Well, looks like then pretty straightforward. Anyone want to put a motion forward to approve or not? Is the applicant here? Oh, yeah. We don't want to rob you of that. Come on down. You're going take the time out, so apologize.

That's right. Well, I have a fifteen minute presentation put together. So no, just thank you to

the What will you state your name to as well?

Oh, yeah. Cameron Duncan with Ensign Engineering.

You.

You need my address or just name?

No, we're good.

Okay. Thank you to the staff for getting us on. We kind of these guys aren't developers. So they kind of slipped through the cracks and got to the end here. So just asking for an extension.

Perfect. Pretty straightforward. Any questions for applicant? See? Knew it would be easy for you. Right. What say, commissioners?

I'll make a motion.

Go ahead.

Okay, I move that we approve the amended subdivision plat application number 2025Dash0021DashSUB based on the findings and criteria for approval as listed in the staff report dated 04/15/2025.

Thank you, Susan. Who will second that motion for approval?

I'll second that.

Thank you, Kendra. Let's put it to a vote. Susan, how do you vote?

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

Laura? Yes. Gary? Yes. And Mary?

Yes.

Alright. Congrats on that. Thanks for coming down. Alright. We'll kick off tonight then with our first public hearing. This is the Bassett Furniture site plan and deviation request. It's on the request of Brandon Wengsgaard of Dustin Builders representing the property owner, IKEA Property Inc. A site plan and deviation request for the construction of a new retail building on approximately 1.24 acres located at approximately 51 West IKEA Way. It's known as Application twenty twenty five-two zero eight SP and two zero two five-two zero seven VAR. Staff contact again is Maryann Pickering. So go ahead, Maryann.

Thank you. This is a vicinity map showing the property. It's here in red. And for reference, this is IKEA, this is RC Willey. This is a detailed view of the property.

It is one of the two remaining building pads that was part of the initial IKEA development that was envisioned. The land use is Commercial Special District and then the zoning is the Commercial Special District DRC, which is the Dolly retail center. This is a new furniture retail building that's approximately 16,000 square feet in size. It will be one story about 25 feet tall. Again, the zoning is the CSD DRC and the request does comply with all the standards of the CSD with the exception of parking and they have asked for a parking deviation for this project.

This is the site plan that shows the building. This is IKEA Way. This is the entryway that comes in and if you've been out there lately these are where they have the flags on the corner that say IKEA. So the building will be located closer to IKEA Way. And then this is the main IKEA parking lot down here at the bottom.

They have proposed a landscape plan, which again complies with all the standards of the CSD. These are the building elevations. It does have different materials because of the CSD. It does have a combination of EFIS with some stucco, but that is all permitted in that area. The lighting plan also is a little different, the standards in the CSD, but they have met those standards and all of the height for the light poles.

They're well below what they could do. With the parking deviation, there's a minimum of 80 stalls required by the CSD, and they're proposing to do 40 stalls on the site. This retail store, it's actually a showroom only from what the applicants told me. There's a very small storage area but typically you go in here, order your furniture, and then it is shipped to you. You don't get deliveries from the store.

So again, there's very little stock that's there. There is a large amount of parking in this area, specifically on the IKEA property, and there have been deviations for parking considered for this area in the past similar requests and specifically was Alice Lane had one and I believe La Z Boy had one also and there haven't been any parking issues out there without those two businesses and those deviations. This is the site again for reference. It'll be here where this parking lot is right now. And I didn't, I did receive one public comment which you got as part of this, but that was all I heard. No phone calls on this one. And I'm happy to answer any questions you have.

All right, thanks Maryann. Appreciate that. All right, is the applicant here for this? Alright. You want to come on down? Same drill. Just state your name and add anything to that presentation that you'd like.

I'm Brandon Waynesgaard. I'm with Dudson Builders. So I am the applicant on behalf of Bassett and IKEA. There's not much else to add. Maryann's done a great job working with us. Todd's been a great help. We're just looking forward to breaking ground on this hopefully.

Perfect. Great. We may have some questions for you. Any questions for the applicant? Okay. It's public hearing, so after we get the public input, if we need to invite you back up, we will. Thank you. Thank you. And then just for the record, I can see on his shirt we've got the builders misspelled, so Dutson, T S O N, instead of the other way around, so no worries. So I caught that before you did, Susan. So I could think I'd get a trophy for the first time in about ten years, right? So thank you. Good job. All right. Now back to our meeting.

This is a public hearing, so we'll go ahead and open this up to public comment. Who would like to address this agenda item, if anyone? Okay. We don't see anyone, so we'll go ahead and close the public hearing. Alright, Commissioners, you heard it mention I don't get a vote, but you heard it mention this sounds like it's identical to the La Z Boy experience that you have over there. It's just a showroom, right? Never really a parking issue, so the parking deviation we have in front of us, and then the site plan is what's on the docket. So what are your thoughts on that?

I was glad to see the parking study. That was helpful for me, especially when it comes to retail type uses.

And having lived here and experienced that IKEA parking lot, that's always empty out that direction always, right? So this has never been an issue. But the study does help. All right. Well, if that's the case, then let's put some motions I'll make a motion. Go ahead, Gary.

Could I ask a question first of Tracy? The public comment we received today, what weight can we give that to our decision, or do we need to give it, or none?

None. Okay. It's a civil matter between the property owners. Okay. So yeah, not something that you could consider.

Okay. Thanks.

Great. Thanks for pointing that out. All right. So where were we? Gary, with

your motion.

Ahead.

I move that we approve the parking deviation as requested by Brandon Wengsgaard of Dudson Builders representing the property owner IKEA Property, Inc. Application twenty twenty five-two

zero seven VAR based on

the findings for approval in the staff report dated April 19 and five findings for approval.

Great. Thanks, Gary. Who will second that motion?

I'll second.

Thanks, Mary. Okay. Let's put this one to a vote. Gary, how do you vote? Yes. Mary?

Yes.

Susan?

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

And Laura? Yes. Alright. So that's approved. And now let's take a look at the site plan. What do we say about that?

I'll make a motion.

Go ahead, Susan.

I move that we approve the site plan as requested by Brandon Wingsgaard of Dustin Builders representing the property owner, IKEA Property Inc. Application twenty twenty 5 -two zero eight SP based on the findings and approval and subject to the conditions listed in the staff report dated 04/19/2026.

Thanks, Susan. Who will second that?

I'll second that.

Thanks, Kendra. Let's put that one to a vote for approval of the site plan. Susan?

Yes.

Kendra?

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Gary? Yes. And Mary?

Yes.

Alright. Congrats on that, and thanks for coming in. We appreciate you doing business here in Draper. Alright. Let's go ahead and hit our next public hearing. This is the Jensen Farms Phase 4 preliminary subdivision plat and park strip deviation request. It's on the request of Peter Gambrillas of Ivory Homes preliminary subdivision plat and park strip deviation request for a new single family residential development on approximately 11.74 acres at approximately eleven thousand eight sixty seven South seven hundred West. This is known as applications twenty twenty five-fifty seven SUB and twenty twenty 6-forty3 VAR. And Mary Anne Pickering again is our contact. So go ahead, Mary Anne.

Thank you.

For reference, this is 700 West over here and then the heavy rail line. A detailed view of the problem, this is Big Willow to the north. The land use on this one is residential medium density. This is a proposed 28 lot single family residential subdivision. It is part of the Jensen Farms development for those of you who've been on planning commission back from 2017.

We did do the DA back then and then the preliminary and final plats. But this phase, this is phase four, this was actually sold to Canyon School District because they anticipated they were going to be building a school on this site. The school district decided not to do that. They sold it and Ivory Homes has purchased it. And this proposed phasing plan they have conforms exactly to the original DA.

There's no deviation from it except the Park Strip we'll get to. And this will connect to the rest of the Jensen Farms subdivision to the North and then the Big Willow to the North, sorry, and Jensen is to the West. This is the Platte. Again, it does conform to the phasing plan that we had originally. This is the area that is now the city park that was dedicated to the city as part of that development agreement.

The applicant has requested park strip deviations. And there are two areas where this will be proposed. There's going to be a reduction from 10 feet to five feet along two of the cul de sacs within the subdivision that abut the city park. The deviation would also allow the retaining wall to be built in the park strip rather than in the park land, and that was requested specifically by the parks department so they don't have to maintain it as part of the parks budget. Engineering does agree with this design.

This was the compromise we came up with and Planning Commission is allowed to modify these cross sections per the subdivision chapter seventeen-five 30 D. These are the two cul de sac areas where the park strips will be modified. They're going to be the same modification. Again, the park goes right next to it as you can see and it's basically taking, reducing that from 10 to five feet and then doing stamped concrete to allow for those retaining walls to be incorporated. And I did not receive any questions or calls on this one as part of the public hearing notice, and I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

Thanks Maryann. So

just to clarify, this land was included in the land that the development agreement applied to. However, it wasn't anticipated to be utilized for housing at the time. Is that correct?

No, it wasn't anticipated to be And then the I think it was still Randy Bauer when he was working with the Jensen's they sold all of Phase 4 to the school district and then the school district decided they don't want to put a school there They sold it. And I don't believe Goff Holmes was interested so that's why I decided to purchase it.

Okay. I understand. Thank you.

Concrete, is that only for the section or all the sidewalks?

No, just the part where they're requesting the deviation.

And is that because of the retaining wall or other way sidewalk?

No, the concrete sidewalk will be there. The stamped concrete is to replace landscaping in the park strip and it's to reduce the maintenance responsibilities of city crews because that would be city maintained park strip, and we just don't have the staff to do that much park strip in these areas.

Okay. Thanks.

Great. All right, thank you. All right, is the applicant here? Come on down. Welcome. Just that you know the drill, state your name and add anything to that you like.

Yeah, Peter Gamvroulis with Ivory Development. I really don't have much to add. Mary Anne did a great job. I thought I'd be a little later as I was the fifth item, so

I showed up a little late and I think We're just my engineer will be booking through here tonight. I like it. You're totally fine. You're totally fine.

Just in time.

So my engineer may be coming in, but I have nothing to add. If you have any questions of me directly, I'm happy to answer it. If my engineer happens to come in, he'll also be available.

Perfect. Good. And public hearing too, so we'll invite you back up as well if we need to. So thank you.

Thank you.

All right. So this is a public hearing. We'll go ahead and open this up. Is there anyone that would like to address this agenda item? If so, I'll give you the rules for how to engage with this. There's a little timer up there, a red timer for three minutes. You're welcome to take up to three minutes. You don't have to fill the whole time. We just you don't go over. And if you just come up, just state your name. So with that, come on down. My

name is Mark Robert Sexy. I'm directly north of this area. So right now I got a 12 acre fire hazard that I'm glad is getting developed. Took a while to get it cut down last year, like multiple calls. But my concern right now is the park it went in, beautiful job controlling dust, dirt, noise. It's still working. Phase one, two, and three. I agree it's phase five. A gents a Big Willow was a disaster where I couldn't see the other side of the valley, the other side of the creek. And now I'm directly north of this.

And if you notice the south winds lately, it's it's crazy. I'm gonna right now, I'm blowing dirt just from a basement next door. So I just have some concerns on if you guys can address this or where I need to go to make sure everybody control this correctly and we don't have that kind of a a mess. Starting with the fire hazard now and going to the dust when they start putting the infrastructure in the house. I bought a school and a park, and now I've got a 12 acre home development going in so you can see where my concerns are. Okay.

Alright. Thank you. Anyone else? Come on down.

I'm Scott Jensen. I live there on Windmill Gate Cove, which would be in the Jensen Farm development just west of where this is going in. And we've spoken to a number of our neighbors and we kind of have the same question. And I think it comes down to just terminology. But as far as the shrinkage of the park strip, what does that exactly mean? Is the park itself shrinking or is it like the sidewalk? Or could we get some clarification on that? Great.

So this is just send only, so we're just taking notes on this. So just tell us, speak your piece, then we'll address Oh, these later. So

think it's just terminology. Everyone's a little not everyone, but there's a there's a number of people are just trying to understand exactly what is changing by changing over the park strip. Perfect. Thank you. Thanks. And thank you for the park. It's awesome.

You got it. We'll pass that on. Anyone else? Come on down.

I am Rick Taylor, 1443700 resident there, also representing West Crescent Irrigation Company. And those of you who know me, I've kind of fought the development in the area. I'd much rather seen agriculture and horse property through the whole thing, but that ship has flown or sailed. But ironically, I'm here to tell you that I approve of what's going on on this one. We've worked with, Bob Ehlers and Peter Grambullos, and we have what's happened in in years past is everything, upstream of of our creek that we irrigate from, gets water from tributaries of all these subdivisions where they they take what used to be farmers' fields, and they turn it into subdivisions.

And and there's no regard for where that water, even though it was a little trickle, went to. And if you get enough of those trickles, it makes a big difference, and we've been cut, you know, tremendously on that. It's it's a struggle every year to get enough water to pump for our irrigation company now. Years ago, before Jensen's even sold the farm, we purchased East Jordan Water, and we've we've had a delivery system through their old siphon line. Anybody here familiar with that?

Anyway, it's very expensive system. It has a three foot pipe going underneath I 15, and it was our intent to keep that active. In early development, you know, probably eight or ten years ago, the the line was cut. It goes across the creek, and I think when they did June Grass Drive, they they cut and capped the line that used to deliver to the creek. We're it's been our interest and my personal mission in the past six years representing the company to try and reactivate some of those water sources that we had, and we're still looking right now today for an immediate relief, but Peter and Bob have helped us with putting the line back in place.

They have to reroute it and get it out of the residents' backyards that they'll create, but there is an easement there created. Just so the planning commission knows, it's written up on the plan as a 15 or, I believe, 18 inches c 900 waterline, and, we have currently pipe underneath June grass and the trail down by the creek that's only 12 inch. So, we've we've let Ivory know that that could pipe could be reduced to 12. It should cost considerable amount less and still do the delivery system we need. So I'm just here to say thank you.

Awesome. Thank you. Appreciate that. Alright. Anybody else?

Hi.

Hi. My name is Stacy Jensen, and I am on Windmill Gate Cove as well. And my only comment is that with this new development and with the park finishing out of my home, have a really nice view of the bridge and the main street with there's, like, two entrances that come into the main neighborhoods. There's a lot of speeding going on. And so with the park finishing and more homes, I would like to see more, I don't know, speed bumps or signs or something to protect our children on the neighborhood roads.

So that's it.

Great, thank you. All right, anyone else? Okay. All right, I don't think I see anyone else popping up, so we'll go ahead and close the public hearing portion of this meeting or this agenda item, excuse me. So Peter, why don't we have you come back up and we can address some of those items. I know that's a little awkward sometimes we just sit here and blink at you. We don't respond with any answers to your questions. So here's some responses. So Peter, I have listed on here an explanation of exactly what's going on with the parking strips, what that means for your neighbors or their existing neighbors, and then dust mitigation, I guess, for Phase five here as talked about during previous phases. That's what I have.

And then of course safety and Brian, we can maybe talk to that. For the applicant, that's what I have. But anything else you want to add, please do.

No, thank you. So I think it was Mark's comments regarding dust issues. So phase five, as far as development, was completed in 2025, 2025. We didn't expect to pave that, but given the winter we had, we were able to pave it in time. Dust issues are always going to be an issue anytime we're developing.

I can't promise that there won't be dust, but our contractors should be treating that with a water truck and we do have fugitive dust control plans that our contractors work under. So if anything gets out of line, please reach out to Ivory, the city if necessary, but we do expect dust will always be a part of development. Scott Jensen had the question on the park strip. I guess that's an often used term for us, but it can be confusing. So I don't know that we can blow these up more.

But simply when we're referencing a park strip, we're referencing the area between the sidewalk and the curb or the road that's typically landscaped with street trees and sometimes sod or other plants. So when we're referencing shrinking the park strip, it's nothing to do with the city park. It's referenced to the cross section of the road where you would see road, gutter, park strip, sidewalk. That park strip, the landscape area in between would be shrunk. And then in this case, because it's not next to a single family lot, will be stamped concrete because it will be the city's responsibility and that's per city code.

And then Rick Taylor, thank you for your comments. We had the opportunity to work with Rick and Bob of West Crescent Engineering. And so, yeah, thank you for being supportive and we look forward to getting that pipe infrastructure in for you. And I think I have one note from, and Stacy's note was regarding speeding and I don't know that that would be appropriate for me

to No, respond we'll let engineering address that. So what is the process like with dust mitigation? Because that is a nuisance in any not just from you, from anybody where the wind blows, right? You've got vacant, scraped land. What is typically the process with that? I mean, they calling the city or are they calling it? Because I know you guys are trying to get your developers, whether whoever that's been in the past, if it's the same guys in the future. But is that something they're supposed to be doing? It's just watering that down and keeping dust down?

That's typically the only mitigation method that you have.

So if you got a call on that, you would just then rattle the chain of the subs and say, hey, you've got a or the developer that's

doing There will be fugitive dust control plans that our contractors will be working under and they'll have water trucks.

Andrew if I can add to that if there are dust problems the public can call the city when they're installing infrastructure in the roads our engineering inspectors are out there inspecting. When homes are being built, the building inspectors are out there inspecting. And if we get calls about dust, those inspectors can go out and talk to the contractors about their mitigation measures.

Okay, great. I only bring that up not to solve the problem, right? We can't solve it, but we can mitigate it. So so the public can kind of hear what their options are. Great. I think that's good. Anything else you want to add? Nothing to Okay, go ahead. We'll cut you loose. And then Brian, on safety, what is aside from the little yellow signs that a resident can put out that says speeding or kids at play, no speeding, please. What else can be done on a serious note about that?

So the city does have what we call a traffic committee that does evaluate streets as conditions change or as new growth happens. So in this area, we'll be watching this as it begins to be used more and more, and we'll evaluate it. In the future, I anticipate we'll probably end up doing some speed studies on rolling hills and some of these other access roads towards where the park is. And if there's a speeding problem that's identified there, we'll increase enforcement. And then if there's still additional issues, then we can do some in-depth studies and see if we can find an engineering solution to those speeding problems or safety issues.

It doesn't necessarily always be speeding. It could be running stop signs. It could be a variety of different things. But the city is aware. So we will be watching this area as the park's completed and the development finishes out.

Okay. Well, thanks for addressing that. Okay. All right. Well, that's what we've got there, commissioners. What are your thoughts? We've got a couple of things in front of us here. We've got the park strip deviation and then I think the preliminary subplat that we've got to look at and get approved or not. So what are your thoughts first on the parking strip deviation?

I'm happy to make a motion on the Park Strip deviation. I think this is the only park strip deviation I've ever really liked. It felt like it was beneficial.

Well, know I'm no fan of rip your strip or whatever it's called, you know, because of Oh,

yeah. Yep.

But I think stamped concrete is pretty safe.

Yeah.

So it's a pretty good weed barrier in my experience. Yeah. It's great on water too. So talk about the ultimate rip your strip. There you go. Flip your strip. I don't know what it is, but it's something like that. It ends in strip. Go ahead, Mary. Sorry.

I

move that we approve the park strip deviation as requested by Peter uh-oh, Gambrolas. Gambrolas. Gambrolas of Ivory Homes application twenty twenty six-forty three V A R based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated 04/14/2026, and the finding for approval being the modification of the park strip is adequate and appropriate based on the proposed design.

Thanks, Mary. Who will second that?

I'll second it.

All right. Thanks, Laura. Let's go ahead and put this one to a vote real quickly then. We'll start with you, Mary.

Yes.

Laura?

Yes.

Gary? Yes. Susan?

Yes.

And Kendra?

Yes.

Okay. Now let's move around to preliminary plat subdivision.

I can make a motion.

Great.

I move that we approve the preliminary subdivision plat as requested by Peter Gamvroulis of Ivory Homes, application 2020 five-fifty seven VAR based on the findings for approval listed in the staff report dated 04/14/2026. And this includes the two findings listed there.

Great. Thanks, Kendra. Who will second her motion?

I'll second it.

Thanks, Gary. Okay, let's put that one to a vote then. Kendra?

Yes.

Gary? Yes. Laura?

Yes.

Susan?

Yes.

And Mary?

Yes.

All right. Congrats on that. So thanks for being a good neighbor, keeping that dust down. And thanks for coming in, of course. So let's go ahead and move on to our final. I think this is our last one here for the evening, correct? It's our city initiated short term rentals text amendment. This one's on the request of Draper City.

Andrew, if you look at the bottom of that, it's been continued to date uncertain.

Oh, awesome. So thanks for saving me from reading all the way through that. So this item is being continued. Thank you. So that I also see that there's no training either, right?

Is. Oh, okay.

All right. My bad. I tried.

So there is a modification.

There is. Well, there's two. Yes. There's two. There's

There's a the agenda.

It says training. It says trading. Other business.

I missed that. That was my I just skipped right up.

Well, and me both. I missed Great. That. Had a Well, that's good. Do you want to take care of any coordination and business first before we do the training? We can either one there anything you want to

I do want to take a few minutes and update you on several development agreements and a text amendment that you guys have heard and have since gone to counsel with the decision.

Hold on one second, Jen.

Brian, can you Yeah. Out?

Now we're good. Okay, go ahead. Start over again

So for

I want to give you guys some updates on some text amendments and a text amendment and some development agreements that you've heard and have gone to city council for approval or decision. A couple of them, it's been a good month. I was going to do it at your last meeting, but it was already like 10:00 and after 10:00 and so we skipped it. So the first one would be Frado Farms. So this is Troy Dana's application there on 8th East and 122nd South.

The the city council did approve it with some changes. We're going sense able do

square feet of livable space. And Good. So that weird little flex lot went away, right? Yes. That one that was going to be a park that we all knew was going to be a

Yes. So that's right.

Perfect. Good. Way

to It is turn it required to stay a park, and then they're limited to the 14.

Perfect.

And didn't they have them as ramblers, or did you say that?

Did they Instead of limiting number of stories or height, they went with overall home size. So 3,000 square feet is the maximum livable area. Thanks. The next one is Kimballs Junction development agreement. So this is Edge Homes project on Kimballs Lane and 7th East.

So that got approved by the city council with changes. So adding the language for the trail dedication to the body of the development agreement, adding the language recommended by staff and planning commission on infrastructure, roadway infrastructure compliance with code, and then requiring that half cul de sac on 119 South. And that application for site plan is in for staff review now for site plan and preliminary plot. So you'll probably see that in a few months. The next ones, OpenShaw development agreements.

This was Charlie OpenShaw's property on the corner of 138th And Bangater Parkway. So that got approved with recommended changes to add some language that staff recommended on cross access and temporary access, A modification to the landscaping section that the parking lot that parking lot landscape islands at the end of the rows are required, but they don't count towards the 10% over overall landscaping. So that's in addition to the 10% overall. And that the mayor won't sign the development agreement until a cross access agreement has been signed and executed. Bangater Crossroads development agreement, so this is a larger piece.

So it was approved with changes. So staff provided a few wording changes in the presentation that counsel said you've got to include those. Pork chop on the 30s access is required. Plus they have to look at different ways to mitigate truck access to thirty's besides just the pork chop and the sign. Requirement that the sidewalk continue from 30 East into the site on the north side.

If a hawk signal is warranted on 3rd East, that the developer and the city share the cost equally to install that. That the fuel canopy be painted a dark color and the canopy lighting be limited to 51 foot candles. The dark colors to help reduce light pollution and glare. Eight foot walls along all the buffer areas with residential. See I'm losing my place here.

The 3rd East berm and fence has to equal 8.5 feet tall. So that's the berm and the six foot fence along that whole length on 3rd East. Landscape buffers next to the residential properties have to comply with code so that's the width and number of trees. The cross access agreement be signed and executed prior to the mayor signing the development agreement. Deed gaps and overlaps of adjacent properties need to be resolved with the site plan before site plan approval.

And then the landscape in the landscape and the largest trees possible to have the best chance of longevity be installed on the property. And I think that was specifically talking about those buffer areas. And third. And then Juan Diego, text them in, but I got one more. That did get approved with the changes that Planning Commission asked for with that definition of ancillary added and the changes that staff went over with you guys at your meeting. Are there any questions on any of that? I feel like that was a lot of information.

I have a question that you might not be able to answer. There was an article about the Banger Crossing project in the Draper journal that came out this week. And the writer apparently interviewed Duane Rasmussen, I think. And he said they anticipated construction starting like 2027 for the anchor tenant. Do we know if Openshaw has a similar timeline? I mean, and if you don't know

Yeah, don't know Openshaw's timeline.

Okay.

Yeah. Anticipate this summer we'll get the site plan application for Bengator. It is a larger project. It may take a while. And obviously the construction of the building will take some

time. Okay, thanks.

On a side note, the construction for the frontage improvements in that area has begun for the deficiencies of Bangater Highway and 138th.

Oh, so that will happen first.

So you'll notice the contractors down there moving dirt now.

And so how soon? I know that's imminent, right?

Yeah, started now. We anticipate that will be done in the next So couple of just to add a little bit more delay to your delay.

I think it will be a welcome change. The traffic there during peak hours is pretty bad. So I welcome any extra lanes and traffic signals.

Put them

in. So

that's begun.

Awesome. Thanks.

UDOT's priority is to keep traffic off of the main line of I-fifteen so they manage the signal accordingly. And that pushes the traffic into Draper and into the Bangater Highway area sometimes as well.

But this improvement will add another lane to Bangater, correct? A right turn only onto the freeway? Am I remembering that right?

So UDOT has committed to widen the area between 150 East and the Northbound I-fifteen on ramp.

The area that people are using as a lane already, I drove in it yesterday. I'm to be the one to get a ticket. I know, the one of all the thousands probably. But it's, yeah, people are utilizing that. They going You

do not

have to do that and we don't have a timeline on when they're going to start.

But are they really going to widen that and then, or are they going to unpaint it?

Probably stripe it.

There is a section of curb that's too narrow for an official lane. So they can't re stripe it until they actually do some improvements.

So they do need to.

Darn. Is an additional lane going between 138th and 150 or only north of 150?

The city is adding lanes from 150 to 138th.

Okay. Okay.

It's just city versus

Right. So the city is doing everything we can in our section to accommodate some additional traffic, some better flowing movements, but we still need that one piece from UDOP.

Okay. Thanks.

So at the end of it all, it should be one consistent extra lane.

What will be worse though is if Draper City makes the widening then

it Although goes back down to

it's three lanes now But that won't be great.

That's on the plan. Okay. Good. Well, thanks, Jennifer. Don't you like when she does that? To kind of let us know what happened to our deal. I do like that. Thanks for doing that. I think we would welcome that. Keep doing it. Thank you.

Does that count as a training?

I learned a lot. Didn't you?

Just kidding. Well,

that's We all good learned a lot.

Tracy, isn't that considered like time have to

sit through those Ten couple of

minutes. Just mark

us back served. Education. All right, well with that, let's get on with the training and then after that we'll just adjourn. So let's go ahead. Time's yours.

Well, as you can see, we intended this for you on April 9 and I believe that that just put us all in a world of pain. So we have continued that too tonight. Let's just get started. So we're going to do a little quiz. This is on open and public meetings. Who said this? This is a famous quote, Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Does anybody know?

Probably like Stalin.

Michael Scott. Ably going with Michael Scott.

Michael Scott, come on. Michael gonna be, one of, like, it's gonna be one of the political science guys. Yes. One of the four It's a political site like some some

It's Lord Acton, and this is from 1887. Yeah. So this is a letter that he wrote. And at the time in and there was a presumption that people who were in positions of power were fallible and sort of ordained by God to those positions. And so you start to see this public critique starting to come out against those figures because they're noticing a lot of corruption, right, and they're not liking it.

So that's where this comes this comes from, is a letter that he's writing. And they're talking about the pope and the king. And, in this letter this is where he says, power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men even when they exercise influence and not authority. Still more when you super add the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. So that's where you start to see some of the sentiment coming, against the idea of absolute power, right? Okay, who's the next one? Famous quote, Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants. Anybody know this one?

Mr. Clean.

Mr. Clean. Leslie, no. I'm sticking with it.

So close, you guys. Okay, it's from U. S. Supreme Court Justice This Lewis is a quote that he gave to Harper's Weekly back in 1913. This is over 100 years old. This is where he said that sunshine is the best disinfectant. So publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants, electric light, the most efficient policeman. So this is where you see the advent of sunshine laws. It comes from that quote.

So sunshine laws are regulations that promote transparency, that require the public access to government agency meetings and records. So This is where you see the beginning of open meetings laws. Right? They are supposed to prevent fraud, corruption, and inequality. They're supposed to hold government agencies accountable to the public.

So they are basically like an insurance policy that citizens can observe and understand how government decisions are being made and it helps foster that public trust. Right? And then the participation too in the democratic process. So that is where you see the open public meetings law start. The intent, is that state agencies and political subdivisions are supposed to take their actions and conduct their deliberations openly.

And we don't have to get into too much of this detail. If you're a law geek, it might be interesting to you. But initially, just from a historical standpoint, even like, the Continental Congress and Constitutional Convention, those were held in secret. So those were not open to the public. But then you start to see, like I said, this trend towards more open and public governmental operations over time.

So in 1966 is when you first see the Freedom of Information Act that gets enacted by the federal government, that's FOIA. That's what our grandma laws are based off of, which is the Government Records and Management Act here in the state. And by 1976 in The United States, all of the states have enacted an open meetings law. So every state is going to have an open meetings law. It might have a different name, but you can kind of see that trend towards going towards more open deliberations.

Alright, so in our Utah code, this is under Title 52, so that's what we'll be talking about. And here's my next question for you. So the legislative intent of OPMA is for public bodies to deliberate and act a civilly, b respectfully, c openly, or d transparently.

Very

close. It's c. So in our state law, it's openly. So keyword there, openly, it is the intent of the legislature that the state, its agencies, and its political subdivisions, which we are as a municipality, that we take our actions openly and we conduct our deliberations openly.

Is transparency more showing things like numbers, dollars, things that are more private, less public? Think so. Saying that just because it's a city doesn't mean that everything's public, but everything is open.

It's mostly that you want to be doing these decisions out in the open, right? So that it's not like this, like, backroom deal where things are going on. You want the public to feel like they're kind of seeing, you know, what's happening and how it's being deliberated by their elected officials. So openly is keyword in the statute. So that's why just keep that in mind, that's the phrase that it uses is that you deliberate openly. Alright, so here's our true or false. Because the statute does not technically require a public official to behave civilly or respectfully, planning commissioners can be rude and disrespectful to others during public meetings when representing the city.

So which city are we talking? Pray for this would be false.

That would be truism.

We're going to give this one to Andrew. Is Okay. It's

after the

fall, yes.

Dinner decorum. There we go, Okay,

so we have bylaws that govern you as a body, right? So as the Planning Commission you have got the Draper City Planning Commission bylaws and rules of procedure. So in our Article four of Order and Decorum in 4.2, that's where it sets out what the commissioner decorum is expected of you. So A is that you're in attendance at each meeting and portray an appropriate appearance as representative of Draper City to conduct the meeting in a serious, respectful, and sincere manner. B is that you should avoid leaving your seats except during approved recesses of a meeting or removing yourself for a conflict of interest.

So I actually didn't recall this, but when we're actually in the middle of a public hearing, be sure to stay seated if you need to be excused. We can talk about that in just a minute. So the other part of C is avoid conversations that's not plainly audible to all present in the meeting. Sometimes I think it's fine to just have like commentary, like you know, something funny amongst yourselves. I don't know that anyone's gonna really view that super skeptically, but I think you do need to be careful about having sort of sidebars, like where they can't hear you because that perception is that what's going on, they're not supposed to be doing it that way. It's supposed to be open and on the record.

Do you see anything in our meetings, Tracy, that needs to change on any of these? And if you do, will you point them out?

Sure. Thank you. Yeah. Alright. And then also in our state code, we've got under ten thirty six, it does set forth that there are supposed to be rules of order and procedure and that they typically like public bodies to follow a parliamentary order procedure, ethical behavior, and civil discourse. So you've got the state law part and then you've got our bylaws. So there you go. There's some kind of foundation for you. Alright. But this is what happens if you get super rowdy as planning commissioners.

So basically all you need to remember is that behavior that is likely to disrupt public peace or offend public decency is kind of what constitutes disorderly conduct. So you could get into all the nitty gritty of like what disorderly conduct is, but what you need to know is that if you see one of your fellow commissioners starting to get disorderly in their conduct, you can expel them. So as long as you have two thirds of a vote, then you can get rid of Susan when she starts mouthing off.

I'm so mad.

Don't say that to me.

No, I'm just kidding. Susan's very well behaved.

I have an issue

with this.

Does that ever happen?

We don't have thirds. We have five

You have five.

So we need to change that to reflect maybe three fifths because three fifths is that four sixths? I don't know, it's been a while.

Your quorum is five.

Six, seven.

We can actually talk about this but that is actually what I think the what the state statute says. So it's a super majority, right? So I think that's what it really means. Okay. So if you're a quorum of five then you're gonna need to have oh gosh, for a super majority? What?

Yeah, you're going need four. You're going need four.

I just did the math.

It's 3.5.

Math on the fly is not my

So this would never apply in our city. But in theory, let's say, if we're asking for a friend, if this to be expelled, that's permanent expulsion, or is it from that meeting?

It's from that meeting.

Okay. And then also, is it on the fly? So in theory, if Gary were starting to get unruly, we could hurry and say two thirds vote, I call on Gary. And then immediately right then? Right. He would stop the meeting and say I need to call a vote?

So probably the the most

Wait for police.

You have to wait for police. I know you're asking way too many questions.

I'm just curious. I'm just curious because

How would you do it? No.

I find that training sometimes, it's you know, you never know what's gonna pop up. So

Yeah. No. I think the best way to do it is to is for one of the commissioners to make a motion in that moment and say, I'd like to move that we expel commissioner Ogden for disorderly conduct. And would

for say this meeting. Susan.

Stop. He's been tipping the bottle too

many times. Again, this is just this is just for Hypothetical. Other cities. Hypothetically.

Has that ever happened? I mean, it

I but you can do it in that moment. You don't have to sit there and, like, Got tolerate that

It's not a it's not a not a hearing later that's two meetings later saying, hey, remember when that person got unruly, we're going to expel them. It's not, okay. So it's for the meeting only, it's on the fly, and it'll never happen here.

It could be very unlikely. But it's good to know that you've got that in your back pocket in case it ever happens. So

Are you gonna get into what's gonna what I mean Oh, yeah. Only had one meeting, I think, that got unruly out here. Oh, so It was before I was I was brand new. The other Andrew Drew was the chair. It was the I think it was the, can I say?

Yeah. You

can. It was the it was the hang glider park, and it was Geneva and the hang glider people.

Yeah. Yeah.

And we were all Nazis. And and and

The Drew Nazis was APA. It was the high school at APA.

Maybe that was the second time we

were Nazis. That was the second time.

So maybe were you Jim, were you here for the the glider guys?

I'm I I was here for the Geneva ones. Yeah.

You were

here for that? Okay.

Yeah. I remember that.

Yeah. So that one and I remember Drew said well, there It wasn't me. It wasn't me. Well Wasn't it? No. That one was that was Drew. Another So that

one where they were clapping.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's because I

Yeah.

I had a good trainer, Drew, showed me how to handle the hang gliders. He claims there's a button under here. There's a button. He goes, I'll hit this button. Then

It's a fake button.

I don't think that I'll tell you after the yeah, but this is an open meeting. But he claimed there was a button that he was going to press. I don't know where that is, but there was a button that he was going to call in. Yes, People are getting unruly.

If we think in advance that there could potentially be an issue, and we've had applications where the applicant has said certain things to staff or we're concerned about them being at the meeting, or we know there's gonna be an unruly people, we can invite the police to join us. And we have had police officers here for meetings in the past. It's kind of as as needed.

Okay.

But we can also call for a police officer to come join us.

Okay. Yeah, so again, this is more for just training for us, not for the public. Got it.

So I was just taking the bylaws because as the chairperson, you're required to maintain the order of the meeting. I think you could shut somebody down if you felt like it was becoming disorderly. And you could ask them to leave. I think you could even put the meeting on hold, and we could ask for police to come and escort them out. So that's probably what I would suggest in that situation.

Yeah. That I mean, honestly, that's that's I I doubt that too, but that's more of a of a reality than somebody up here getting unruly. But so that's why I wanna address it now. So those are our rights then on what we can do.

And just so you know, I won't go into this because this is public and I don't know that we want to do that. But if we ever have a situation where you feel unsafe or if we feel like if somebody were to draw a weapon, then what I would want you to do obviously is get down. I think what we've done, I don't know, have they done it yet already? It's already done, it's bulletproof. Okay, so I think all this right here is bulletproof.

So anyway, I mean this is helpful to know. Yeah. But I think the way that they usually train you is to run, hide, and then fight. Like that's kind of the order of priority. So like if we were to have a situation here where we have a gun, get down, go out the back, follow me, I'll have my badge, we'll go out that way and I'll take you down to a safe room. So just keep that in mind that that's kind of the protocol.

Your badges can also get you through both these

Allegedly. Mine doesn't I don't have badges. They should already have.

Oh, okay. Good.

I'm locked out of the break room. Oh, I

didn't we didn't used to have badges. You guys have badges now?

Yeah. Like Okay. It's no good.

Andrew's badge does not work.

So you wanna go out that back door?

Uh-huh. Okay. And then we'll we'll get with Jake. So we need to fix that.

We're gonna

crawl out.

We're here. Hey. You know, that's I'm glad we're talking about this because that actually happened at my previous life.

Really?

We actually had someone in the audience threaten us, the commissioners. Oh, yeah. It was intense, I'll tell you. And we had commissioners duck down. Oh. And we had to call the police. Uh-huh. So it does happen, but nothing else.

I think that's great. That's why we're talking about it. Because you never know.

Never know.

So we just talked about this. How is a quorum defined in OPMA? A, a simple majority of the membership. B, three or more members of the public body. C, a minimum number of the public body needed to hold a valid meeting. Or D, the number of people needed to conduct official business of the public body. Alright, I won't keep you in suspense for too long. Alright, it's a simple majority of the membership of the public body. So under the statute, that's the actual language of it there, but under our bylaws which is 3.5, our planning commissioner is we have five commissioners, right? And so three is a quorum under our bylaws.

So the chair is counted as a sitting member to establish quorum and shall vote if only three commissioners are present. So you have seen that before where Andrew occasionally gets to exercise the right to vote, but not very often.

So remind me, so if that is that's when we have three commissioners up here. Total. Three people. Including me.

Yes.

So you to vote because we have to have three, not Yeah.

I only have memory of that happening once where it was just three.

Yeah, where I had to vote. I mean, I've had a I think there's been a tiebreak as well. Anyway. Okay.

Uncommon thing can happen.

There's three of us up here.

Three of, yeah. And one was a, we couldn't get a majority vote.

Really?

Yeah. Oh. And so, yeah, we had to have all three of us Right. Motion didn't pass and so

It just got continued.

We had to, no, we had to kind of deliberate for a little while longer and we discussed and then finally

I remember that. I think there were like three motions before we got to one that had three votes. That actually went.

There you go. Okay.

Just really quickly, how soon do approved minutes need to be posted for the public? Any idea? We've got three business days after the meeting, we've got thirty days after holding the meeting, seven calendar days after approving the minutes, or as soon as reasonably possible?

I think it's D.

Okay. It is A. Oh, wow. It? Business Wow. Three business days after approving the written minutes of an open meeting.

So that transcription is posted that quickly within three days?

We have to do it. It goes through the recorder.

That's the minutes

you have

to post them all by three

days? Approve.

When you approve.

From when you approve. Yeah.

We approve the minutes.

Oh, once they're approved. I was going say because that transcription process does not take just

three No, days great.

So now that you've approved the minutes

That's why I try to list the names off too. If you notice on who's speaking, it's a little bit right just up here because the transcriber Craig Hawker and I used to sound the same. And so the transcription person was so I try to that's why I rattle off your name. It's not just for fun. You got it.

It's

nice to hear your name, though, too, isn't it? That's nice. People like that. Yeah. People are Yeah.

Okay, so under the statute, what's a justifiable reason to hold a closed meeting?

Oh, private stuff like, oh, sorry, never mind.

So we've got A, discussion regarding a controversial recommendation from a city planner. B, to learn confidential details about a developer's recent crime in the city. D, interview a person applying to fill a chair position or a midterm vacancy. Or D, strategy session to discuss pending or reasonably imminent litigation.

It's gonna be D.

Good job, you guys. It's a strategy session to discuss the pending or reasonably imminent litigation. So under the statute, it gives you these reasons here that these are the purposes you could have a closed meeting. These are the only ones that apply to the city. So like when they are discussing the professional competence of somebody or if they're talking about collective bargaining or they're doing the litigation or the sale or purchase of property, you don't want that to become public information.

So you've got some valid reasons why a body would hold a closed meeting. But this is a little bit of a trick question for you guys. Under our bylaws, under 3.13, every meeting of the Planning Commission is to be open to the public and conducted in accordance with the Utah State Open and Public Meetings Act. So we don't actually have a carve out for you guys to go into closed session.

Yeah. The the city council does. City council does but we do not. So that's why we never really talk about anything in the dinner session about like hey what's coming up on this or anything like that. So I mean we might reminisce about the past meeting.

Yeah, was going say even if we had study sessions and some cities do have study sessions before where they'll kind of go over the agenda and that kind of thing those are public.

Those would be open.

Yeah, those would be open. They'd be recorded.

Yep. Okay.

Hey. How much time is required to notice a public meeting? Twenty four hours. Annual, not less than twenty four hours, or all of the above?

Wow. Twenty four typical. But you can't have an emergency meeting. At least. Actually, it's all of the above.

I think it's all of the above because we publish And our we vote on it at the end of the year for the next year.

So it's all of those where it's not less than twenty four hours. So we know we always have a deadline that we've to post it twenty four hours before, right? We have to hold it there the whole time. It can't like go up and then we pull it down. I think that's to prevent people from doing that. And then if we have an annual meeting schedule, we have to post that as well. So there you go, it's all of those things. And then how often are you required to be trained on the Open and Public Meetings Act? Is it A, each time a member of the public body is newly elected or appointed annually? C, there is no training requirement because we do this for fun? Or is it monthly?

Annually.

Good job. Okay, yes, it's annually. And this is by law, we have to give you training on the Open and Public Meetings Act every year. So that's why we're doing it this year. I know you guys really enjoy this and it's super fun.

It's a good one. It's a good one.

We have to do this. Alright.

I like the tests.

Okay, so what is something that does not need to be recorded in the official meetings, in the official minutes? We've got A, date, time and place of the meeting, B, names of members present and absent, C, a record by individual member of each vote taken, d, the verbatim dialogue of all matters proposed, discussed, decided.

D.

D. It's d. You guys are good. Okay. So it's the verbatim dialogue. And you've seen the minutes, so you know they kinda do a little a summary of your comments, but they don't do a verbatim transcript. So everything else we've got to show. So we've got to do the date, the time and place, the names of all members present and absent, and the substance of the matters proposed or discussed and decided. So when we hit that, then we've complied with the statute. Okay, here's a next recommendation and it would be don't commit chaos on the record and that's when you start talking over each other.

And so it's really hard for the transcriptionist when people start to speak on top of each other. And so keep in mind that all of our meetings are recorded and they are transcribed and it gets really hard sometimes for them to follow like who's saying what. So just be mindful of that. It doesn't happen very often but sometimes it does. So keep that in mind when you're speaking to make sure that you're not on top of each other.

It's just so the transcriptioner will have a better day. Okay, which of these is not a requirement for electronic meetings? A, adoption of a resolution rule or ordinance governing the use of electronic meetings by the public body. B, always have an anchor location where the public may attend. C, give public notice of the electronic meeting in accordance with state code. D, except for a unanimous vote, all votes shall be taken by roll call. Which one of these is not a requirement for electronic meetings? Any idea?

Probably d. Right? Because unanimous vote? Always have well, remember during COVID, we always had an anchor location, then we had to have some little business about that the anchor location will be closed. That we're it's only in name, not in openness. Or didn't we no. Someone was here and running the meeting. Yeah. Jen was

streamlined the code since COVID.

Oh, sweet. Because of COVID?

It's because of COVID.

Yeah. Okay. Good. So b so we don't need the anchor location anymore because of COVID.

You see?

Yeah. What we used to And I

Jennifer would be here running the Zoom meeting from here in by herself in the echoey chamber here. Yeah.

I think when we first started the digital meetings, we had to have one of you here. And it yeah. But everything was on Zoom. It was on But then the state did change the law so we didn't have to have the anchor location. Staff was still there was still at least one or two staff people here because we had to run it through our recording system and that kind of thing, but then everybody else was at home.

And you didn't have to allow for members of the public to come in at that point?

Yeah. Were allowed into the Zoom meetings.

Yeah. Yeah.

So you can see it's kind of just I call it a nitpicky little exception. It's basically if you look at 5B, the location where it would normally meet has been ordered closed to the public for health and safety reasons. So there you go. I've I've trained you now on a a very minute portion of the statute. It was because of COVID. Yeah. Right. Alright. Which of these would not be a public meeting regulated by the Open and Public Meetings Act? A, a chance gathering by Adam, Lisa, and Mary in the grocery store b, a social gathering of Gary, Christine, and Linda at a holiday party c, Draper days when a quorum of the public body are in attendance or d, all of the above. Which of these are not a public meeting regulated by the statute?

All of the above.

Good job. It's D. Okay. So chance or social meetings used to be a carve out, but they changed it in 2024. So now it says that individuals constituting a quorum of a public body may not act together outside a meeting in a concerted and deliberate way to predetermine an action to be taken by the public body at a meeting on a relevant matter. So that's what you need to keep in mind, is that you can't do that. But if you have a chance meeting outside and it hasn't been called or convened by the chair, it's not going to be regulated by the open public meetings.

So we can say hi to each other at the grocery store.

You sure can. Does this mean now I have to invite everyone to my New Year's Eve party? That because that was my excuse.

When it well, now we know when it is it's New

Year's Eve.

Oh, I'm kidding. I don't really have one.

Oh, the date. It was wild.

Hey, is there any that is the anchor location. So is there anything regarding that you can advise us on calling each other and talking about something?

Well, you know, so you can't predetermine, right? So like yes, would say like in your bylaws you have things where it's like you need to maintain, you're not going to take action on an item before it actually comes up in a meeting, right? So you want to make sure that your deliberations are in front of the public and not offline. So, I mean, if you were to call each other to discuss

it in advance But that's not by chance. That's on It's

allowed by our bylaws. You can do that.

Talk to other planning commissioners. I've looked at that recently. So to talk to city staff and ask questions and then you can, I believe it said you could have conversations with planning commissioners? I don't remember it addressing quorum but just talking through things, I think.

So just to address it, so if I could call up Mary and say, hey, Mary, what do you think about that sign height? What do you think about that? This is commissioner to commissioner, not counsel to commissioner. So that's the first question I have, then I'll ask about the city council.

I think

it's a spectrum, to answer your question. Because I think if you were to just call Mary and say, hey, what do you think about this, Mary, just to get your thoughts on it, You're probably not gonna be in violation. But what you wanna be careful is, are you doing it in such a way that you're predetermining a decision? And so the reason why does anybody know who this is in this picture?

It's Bobby Knight, that chair thrower. He throws chairs. He throws chairs.

You guys know what happens?

Chair thrower.

Chair thrower.

What you don't see in this right hand here is a metal wrestling chair. In this right hand, it's chopped off there. Yeah, he's going to launch one.

The reason why I put a picture of him up is because I'm licensed in Indiana as well and I worked for Bloomington. And my boss's uncle was on the board of trustees that was part of this lawsuit. So what they did, board of trustees of the university, they had a party and they had like three, I think it was either nine or 12 trustees, I can't remember how many, but they made sure that they didn't have quorum in the same room. And so they had like three in the dining room, three in the kitchen, three in the back room, and they all decided they're going to fire Bobby Knight. That's how they did it.

So they made sure they did it off because they were like he's so popular how are we going to fire him but we have to fire him based on his behavior, right? Like we can't condone this conduct any longer but we don't want to incur the wrath of the public when we let him go because he's so beloved by these like sports fans. So they totally circumvented their Open and Public Meetings Act to do that. They end up getting sued by Bobby Knight. This is a lawsuit that goes on for years. Now they actually ended up winning, like IU won this lawsuit, but they spent millions in their defense fee on this one. So even though they

They did. The university did.

And so in just attorney's fees in defending it from him because it went to the state Supreme Court. And so, like, it was just, like, years of, like, appeals and interlocutory appeals. Like, he pushed all the way, and he made him pay for this. I mean, like, he was so

vindictive So on they did win. They prevailed.

They prevailed.

Doing that quorum in the other okay. So that's Yeah. How we the New Year's party, separate rooms.

Oh, you have to stay in the kitchen.

Yes. And

there's only five of us, so I'll be in the kitchen by myself. Oh, okay. Sorry. Sorry. Okay.

Yeah.

Thanks for that. Alright.

But the point of that is to say, like, the university ended up considering that a loss because of how much it spent on the defense fees. So I think they realized, like, we can't get creative with the open and public meetings laws of Indiana. Like, we actually need to comply with this because it just created such a huge legal headache.

Not worth

it. Yeah.

So that's why I just bring him

up as an example. Like, have the conversations, but just make sure that you're not making decisions. Yeah.

So so a call just to say, hey, what do you think about that? Just would be different than me having a checklist going, okay, I've got Mary on board, now Gary, and now let's see, right? That's obviously different. That's lobbying. About talking with council members? Sometimes it's Yeah, our city council members. Sometimes it's interesting because I never know if they're listening to the meetings or not. And you know in the past I've had a call like, hey, we listened to that meeting and you know you guys were really this and this and this. And it's not a it's not obviously they're calling downstream, right, not upstream because our meetings already passed and they're calling about a meeting that did happen, that already had happened in the past. So I mean, are all, tell us about that.

Like what's allowed there? What's that? Because that to me was really just happened maybe once since 2012, since I've been here, maybe twice. But just to say, hey, what did you mean by that? Or what did you think about that? It sounded like you guys were pretty adamantly against this. What did you mean? Does that make sense? Just it's almost like a, Hey, I listened to your meeting and yeah, can tell me more.

You know, so your bylaws are different than the procedures that govern the city council to some degree. Because in a way, you are not supposed to make public comment in advance of a decision. And so, like, that's why, like, you have to maintain, like, the appearance of, like, of neutrality before it comes to you. When you have already rendered a decision on an issue and a city council member calls you, you can tell them your thoughts. I mean, I think at that point you can you can be fully, like, open with, like, this is what I was thinking. This is, like, what I considered. After?

Afterwards. But this is after the planning commission.

Yeah. Can we call upstream and say, hey. This is what we were this is this is really important that you I hope you listened to meeting if you didn't?

Yeah, I wouldn't do it. And I say that not because I think there's any rules against it, I know the city council doesn't like it. So I think some of them, more than others, might take offense at it. So they might feel like you are like lobbying them to something. I think that's a personal decision on their side. Mean like whether or not they feel that way. I just know that some of them do, but I couldn't speak for all of them.

So when does our and again, I'm just going down the rabbit hole so when does my commissioner hat come off and my I live in Draper and this sucks hat come on?

Back on. So that's a good question because

because I get a vote for them as well. Right? On that top lever.

Will notice that sometimes you're going to have decisions. It's not the same decision that comes up in front of you, but it's like you've got the zoning decision that comes in and then you've got like you're going to have like a site plan decision come in late. You're going see this project more than once. And generally it's not going to come back to you, so at that point I think you're probably free to say whatever you want to say and exercise rights to free speech. The only caveat that I would give you for that is that we have members of the public who are sometimes very oppositional to the decision that's going be made.

And if they rightly or wrongly believe that there's been some kind of influence, you could risk being named in a lawsuit. So that's the one thing I think you'd want to be careful of. Does somebody come in and sue the city and then name you individually? So that's why I would say use caution in what you express. But after you guys, it's past your decision making, at that point I think it's kind of off your plate.

Yeah. Okay, so that brings up the point, for example, remember we sat in the back of that meeting and

You gave me a heart attack.

We were almost yeah. Yes. Because you thought we were going to get up.

I know. You should have talked afterwards on my account.

Yeah. Never. Okay. So when I walked in, sat next to Mary, Jen had a heart attack. Yeah. So that is great advice because that is absolutely not good for us to, in between the two meetings, when we say, Hey, this is our decision. Now go see what happens on Tuesday to now come in and start public commenting on to the city council about that, right? Because remember the question was like, are we getting on? Are we getting we on? Said no.

We just have to remember that we're appointed. And angering the person who appointed us is unwise if we want to keep Like, our that's the way I look at

it. Even if we were absolutely in support of what the city council wanted or what they were, whatever it is, even if it wasn't to stir the pot and make anybody angry, even if we were just here to support, right? That's a little bit different. I remember one time, I mean, again, I've been up here forever, so I remember one time I just came in and it was something about dog poop in the water or something like that.

Oh, I remember. I wasn't on planning commission though.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was a big thing and so just to be able to come support that or whatever. But anyway, this clarifies it. So just to be clear, that's totally clear in my mind right now because that was still open, that is not appropriate for sitting planning commissioner to talk about at public comment. And now, right.

Don't think that's what she

It's already passed our purview.

So okay. Well, let me just be let me be super clear. It was that meeting where I don't know what the topic was, but Mary and I sat in the back. Could we have gotten up and spoken on that or not?

On the public meeting when it came up to the city council?

Yes. You did as a citizen.

Yes. You could have gone up and spoken on it.

We didn't because, frankly, everything we were gonna say had been said, it would just be we know how public comment goes.

So It was my point. I'm not angering the person. I've got a couple things.

Right. Yeah.

And I and the three of us kinda talked at the end Yeah.

Because I was like, you guys scared me.

Yeah. But I I think you also have to keep in mind optics.

Sure. I mean, sure.

Is it legal? Is it appropriate? Yeah.

Should we do it? What are those topics? Yeah. We shouldn't even though can't. Yeah. Well, is it bad for us to sit in the back? Is it better for us to listen in?

You can come. Yeah. Can you can go up.

Okay. Well, I'm just asking.

I would also point out that we, if we have a meeting on that topic, we can state our piece. We can talk for as long as our chair will let us on any topic.

This is a big platform to know.

Yeah, and we have a chance to say our piece, I so don't know.

That's a great point.

Like, I feel like it's necessary to make And public

at that point in the meeting, staff has already presented the planning commission recommendation. I think that's another component

There you should look

are times where council does listen to the meetings, either live or or after the fact listens to planning commission meetings because they will reference those meetings. Or if there's a split vote, they'll ask specifically, you know, why, what what was the alternative, you know, thoughts, that kind of thing. So we do provide to city council the recommendations that come from that.

Whether they listen to it or not. That's a

great point.

Whether listened to it or not, they are provided that recommendation.

Correct. At the meeting. Good. Yeah, I think that's a great point because we talked ad nauseam about it and we didn't need to put another I'll three minute comment in. Got

also add to the earlier discussion of can we call each other to talk. You can, as Tracy outlined, but you can also call staff. You can email staff. Susan emailed earlier today a question about that public comment that you guys got. You guys can call either me or Todd or the staff person on the application if you have questions, if you have concerns. And we can talk through what the application is, what your concerns are, and go from there.

Great. Another thing that might also help with what Tracy mentioned, if you do feel the need to maybe send something or communicate to that city council member, if you put it in writing, it can be discovered under So a if you email that to him, that could come up.

Mary brought up the best point is that this is our platform to communicate. And I do speak up here with the intention that the city council will And hear so this is better than a phone call, frankly. It's like if you want to hear what we think, just listen in or listen to what the staff report states. That's a great point. Thanks for bringing it up, Mary.

That's

a And for the record, in the eight years I've been here, I don't know about you, Andrew, but I don't think I've ever had a conversation with anyone beforehand, I don't believe ever, on the planning commission. So I mean, I think technically it may be allowed but like it's not something I

it's never been, I never have and if it's been it's for whatever like hey I'm not going to be at the meeting and we run into each other at the grocery store all

the I just wanted to make that clear.

Wasn't advocating for something that, I'm just asking while it's here. So that meeting was probably the weirdest version of that that we've Yeah. All right. Is training's hourly, correct?

We're making sure. You

guys are doing great.

So we're putting in billable hours here for training, guys. This is great. This is great. We're we're we're checking

the We are more than halfway through this.

Oh, we're only halfway through?

No. We're more than halfway. I promise.

Oh, was gonna say more. Yeah. Sorry. I was asking real, genuine questions. Sorry.

No. You did say poop.

I'm gonna did I?

Ask as

many questions because I do want