Board of Commissioners - Regular Meeting

Rise for the pledge of allegiance, please. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

We're going to get started here and I'm going to start out with some of the rules and some of the things that we need to go over to have this and then we'll get started. Um, one of the things I want to read off to you first is that this notice is hereby given that the board of commissioners of Douglas County, Minnesota will hold the public forum on the 18th day of February, 2026 at 6 p.m. at the Douglas County Administration building. We're here to receive public comments regarding the recent changes in the Minnesota law that allows counties to consider whether to restrict certain firearms or to main shotgun only zones following the state's repeal of the Minnesota shotgun zone requirements or permit the use of rifles in designated areas. The Minnesota legislature amended the state law to grant local governments discretion over firearm regulation within their jurisdictions. making community input a key component of the decision-making process. The purpose of this public forum is to give residents and land owners and hunters and other interested parties an opportunity to comment on the new law and share their perspectives whether Douglas County should adopt the ordinance limiting limiting the use of the rifles for deer hunting. Those unable attend may submit a feedback via email to the to our uh public web page. Comments received at the public forum and in writing will be used by the county as it makes its decisions regarding the firearm zone policy. Following the public forum, the Douglas County Board of Commissioners may consider the issue at a fa future regular meeting. There will not be any decisions made by the board tonight. We're just here to listen to hear what you have to say and we'll discuss that at a later time. the history of the Minnesota shotgun zone. When it came to deer hunting in Minnesota, many assumed the state's

shotgun zone was established for safety reasons. After all, it covers much more open farmland regions of southern and western Minnesota. In contrast to the densely forested northern region where rifles are allowed, however, the real reason behind the shotgun zone creation was more about wildlife management than hunter safety. This came from the Minnesota Department of Revenue, our resource revenue. Yeah, them too. So, moving forward, I'm going to go through the protocol and how we're going to establish the meeting and we'll go through that and I think you'll understand it quite well. But before I get into that, with all the emails and comments that we've got on, we had a um 23 people in favor of eliminating the shotgun and six in keeping the shotgun. The other thing I want to let you know, this is being streamed. It's on YouTube. People are watching, so please respect that. Okay, here's the protocol for tonight. Speakers shall speak in order determined by the board chair. I think that's me. Speakers shall state full name, the town you represent, and the city or your town and city of residents. Only one speaker at a time. Let's try and keep it civil and respectful. Speakers shall direct their comments and questions to the board. We are not going to respond to your questions. We're just here to make notes of what's being asked. The board chair is going to limit the speaker participation. If the comments are deemed inappropriate, we will be asking you to leave. Speakers shall not make any comments or direct comments to the county staff. Speaker comments shall not exceed three minutes.

Duplicate comments. So, if you're coming up and you're just adding to what the last person said and the last person said that the last person said, "Let's cut it short." We don't need to do that. Um, we are cutting this off at 7 o'clock. We figure 60 minutes is long enough. The weather's already turning bad out there, so we want you all to make it home safe. Um, if you're interested in making a presentation and you need some additional time, you can ask the board chair and say, "Hey, I have a few more things I'd like to point out." It'll be decided by me if we'll continue. So, at that point to get started, we were going to go down the list, but I didn't expect to get three pages of people that wanted to speak. So, at this time, the first one on the list is Brad Lake. So, I'm going to let Brad go first. And if you want to go up, you can get behind them. Get like three, four behind it. When they're down, you guys can step up. I'm not going to go through everybody on because there's quite a few on the list. Brad just happened to be the first guy here today. So Brad, please um say your town or your residence and address.

Yeah, my name is Brad Lake. Uh currently reside in Alexandria, Minnesota. Um thank you Commissioner Schmidt and uh good evening everybody. It's just a great turnout and thank you commissioners for having a public forum on this. It's um really important to a lot of people. So it was great to see that that you open it up to the public. I'm going to ask right away, Commissioner Schmidt, for like an extra minute, that three minutes. So, that's okay. Sure. I did prepare it, so I'm just not going to um wing it. Uh just a little bit about myself. My name is Brad Lake. I was born and raised in Douglas County. I'm 59 years old. I've been hunting for 58 of those years. Doug uh deer hunting for only 50 years. I never missed a season. Hunted caribou, moose, mu deer, analopee, and different states throughout those years as well. In addition to that, I was employed by the Douglas County Sheriff's Office for over 30 years as a deputy sheriff and sergeant, then retiring as a chief deputy just a couple years ago. Some of my responsibilities there over the course of many years was that a use of force instructor, firearms instructor, over 20 years experience on the SWAT team. And I said all that not to boast that I'm the luckiest human being to have ever walked the face of the earth because it was a great profession. But um more importantly, just to give you some background as to my experience when it comes to firearms. Um so what's my stance on this topic? I believe that it is long overdue that we are to allow deer to be harvested with any legal firearm, including rifles in all of Douglas County. I came up with my top 10 fact list supporting Douglas County being entirely rifle friendly when it comes to deer hunting. Number one, like you like you mentioned, um Commissioner Schmid, the shotgun zone was never created for safety. was established in 1942 because of of abysmal deer numbers. The Douglas County deer population has recovered, so that alone should end the discussion. But, uh, number two, I'm a strong supporter of the Second

Amendment. I don't want our county to become more restrictive and regulated than the state, especially when it comes to firearms stuff on any level. Number three, every county in the state, including Douglas, has already allowed rifle rounds to be shot at deer during the deer season for many, many years by a handgun. So, we're already doing it already. Anyway, number four, neighboring states that have already abolished shotgun zones years ago have seen zero increases in firearm related accidents during their deer seasons since making their changes. Wisconsin's a perfect example of that. Number five, our shotgun scopes and ammo today are a lot more advanced than our grandfather's 1940s smooth boore iron beaded round ball slug shotguns. Number six, most yearly firearm deer hunting accidents fatalities usually fall into three categories. They're self-inflicted, accidental, you're pulling the gun out of the case, you accidentally shoot yourself in the hand and foot. Target misidentification is a second kick when when you miss um mistake a fellow hunter for a deer, a turkey or something like that. And then the third one is a sad deal, but it it happens where it's a self-inflicted intentional deal. somebody goes out deer hunting in their deer stand and that's ends up being a suicide. Um, none of these are going to be prevented or eliminated by a firearm type. It's just that simple. Number seven, the county simply needs to do nothing and by a certain date the county will simply become an all- rifle county. If the county decides it wants a shotgun ordinance for firearm deer season, then there's many, many, many more questions that have to be asked and answered by this fall because this is not Pope County where the whole county was a shotgun zone and they decided to make an ordinance keeping it the same. Uh, and they cited some reasons as safety and tradition. But one of the first questions is where would our our new shotgun zone safety line going to be? because that line was from 1942 and it kind of looks like somebody had a map of Douglas County and a ballpoint pen underneath their arm and they fell down

a stairs after having a seizure. Is it it and maybe it made sense in 1942, but as far as you know what's safety that that's not it's you know that would be the first question that have to be asked. It just a weird shot shotgun zone line. One of the weirdest ones in the um we really got a doozy there. But um and so you know then what are you going to do? Make the whole county a shotgun zone? And Commissioner Wei, you and I have shared a lot of life together. I love you like a brother, but I ain't going into Lun County and talk to those boys about, you know, no longer can have a rifle up here to shoot deer. You know, um I love you like a brother, but that's I got to draw the line. I'm enjoying retirement way too much. So, if you're in uh if you're in that shotgun safer camp, then you know you know what what um what is that going to look like? Also, like who's the primary enforcement authority going to be and who's going to pay for that? Is it because it's no longer a state regulation enforced by the DNR? It's all of those questions that have to be answered instead of just simply, you know, sitting back. Number eight, the state claims one of the reasons for this deregulation was to simplify its ongoing list of regulations. So, let's let them do it. Number nine, a rifle. And this is probably the most important one of all. I had a great father who taught me a lot about about this. A rifle is a more consistently accurate and humane way to harvest large game. Period. And then number 10, I'm going to end this the way that I started it. I'm going to end the list the way I started it. Shotguns line was placed across Douglas County in 1942 as a deer management tool to help bring up the deer numbers. The deer numbers in Douglas County have recovered. Let's make Douglas County a rifle zone once again. Thank you. Thanks, Brad. Like I said, I'm not going to go through the list. Who wants to go next?

You can you can have one sitting here and one sitting there. We can keep moving that way. Thank you.

My name is Tony Bowman. I live in Kensington. Uh, I hunt in Douglas County and I also hunt in Grant County. I'm in zone 273. My question is kind of on what Brad was saying. If we are going to keep this as a shotgun zone, who is going to be enforcing it? Because obviously DNR is now putting it as a shotgun or a rifle zone. They have nothing to do with what we're going to be doing. Any county? And if we're going to be changing it in Douglas County, are we also going to talk to the zones next to us? Are we going to talk to Grant County? went to their meeting on Monday and expressed the same thing to them that if we are going to be in different things in different zones, let's get together as as each county and talk to each other and say, "Hey, we're going to keep this a shotgun or this is going to be rifle." And if it's going to be rifle, then we keep it rifle on both sides.

Thank you. Thank you, Howard.

Howard Funstead Ous. Uh I'm here on behalf of the Douglas County Association of Townships. And if you guys can uh wait till after our March meeting, all of us will all of the townships will have an opportunity to talk to our constituents at our annual meetings early in March and then we will meet again with you in the end of uh March at our annual meeting. And uh we've sent out a poll. Uh we currently have uh four that are in favor of leaving it as is. Leaf Valley, Oasis, Bell River, and Spruce Hill. Uh countywide would be Homes, Miltona, and Hudson. And Lake Mary and Brandon can go either way according to the responses that we have from those townships. So again, if if you can wait till the end of March to make a decision, then you can hear from our constituents because we'll have a chance to talk with them. And then those people, almost all of those people will be at our county association meeting and can voice it to you as well. It's

on March 18th. Is that right? I believe so. Yes. Then the third Wednesday, you've been you've been invited. We all responded that you're coming. So we'll see you there. So, right. Thank you. That's all I got just to help the gentleman. Jim Hartman, uh, Hudson Township Supervisor, just to help along there. We met last week at our monthly meeting and I'm here to say Hudson County is the supervisor support the rifles. Thank you. Thank you. Go ahead.

Good evening, board of commissioners. My name is Kevin Mason. I live in Oikis. I'm speaking to advocate for the countywide rifle zone extension um for two main reasons. Mainly because I support safe and accurate big game harvesting. Uh Brad Lake spoke well about the accuracy inherent to rifles uh compared to shotguns and so I will not uh delve further into that but I think it's well proven over time. There's a common counterargument worth addressing as well. That is, do rifle projectiles travel farther than shotgun projectiles? Yes, they can. Is this unsafe? Only when those firearms are pointed in unsafe directions or handled negligently. By the numbers, there have been a total of two recorded incidents in Minnesota involving stray rifle bullets striking hunters at long distances since 2002. This is not common. And that brings me to safety. Hunters with rifles are safer in Minnesota by the data. A Brown County researcher um whose work I have in front of me, if you'd like to see it, analyzed Minnesota DNR deer hunting data from 2002 to 2024. And he found that shotgun hunters exhibit a 34% higher overall incident rate than rifle hunters. and that shotgun hunters are 2.76 times more likely to injure another hunter than rifle hunters. By the numbers, do we want deer hunters to have the option to be over 30% safer overall and over 200% less likely to injure their buddies with their firearms by the data? Yes, the choice is plain. In this county, hunters are finally be being given the opportunity to choose the most accurate

and ethical tool for hunting deer. There is no logical reason not to move forward and use rifles. I urge the decision makers here to do the right thing and expand the rifle zone countywide. Thank you. Thank you.

Go ahead. My name is Roger Roers. I live in Brandon. I was amazed by the research that prior speakers have done and they covered stuff I wish I would have thought to cover, but mine is more on a convenience level. We hunt north of Alec by Lake Charlie and we also hunt by Millerville on our property. So, it's really a nuisance. We start hunting at Millerville with rifles. have to stop in Brand to switch guns so we can go to Alec to hunt the afternoon hunt. And my son-in-law wants to buy his son, my grandson, a a birthday present for his birthday coming up in a few weeks. And he said, "Can I buy him a rifle because he hunts by Lake Charlie?" I says, "Wait till after this meeting and we'll see what we find out." And so from a convenience standpoint is my perspective. I would ask that you guys make it a rifle zone. Thank you.

Thank you. Go ahead.

All right. Thanks for the opportunity. Uh Daryl Gi, I live just northeast of Garfield in Ida Township and I am going to ask for an extra minute or two if possible. Um history. I did 22 years in the military, two combat deployments, a lot of firearms experience from the military. I taught rifle and handgun on the civilian side, 21 years with the sheriff's office. Uh, currently a patrol deputy. So, I'm a firearms instructor for the sheriff's office and for the SWAT team. I have extensive firearms knowledge and experience, including a lot of ballistic studies. I'm one of the lucky guys that gets to shoot bullets into stuff, see what they do. Uh, vehicles, walls, drywall, sheetrock, trees. uh just a a vast majority or vast array of experience when it comes to firearms. So, I'm going to try not to double up too much on what's already been said. Mr. Lake did a an excellent job. Uh as stated, the the law was changed in 1942. It was about protecting the deer population. Uh it was not to do with safety of rifle versus shotgun. I will just list a few advantages of rifle. So, I I've hunted both my entire life, 32 years I've been deer hunting. Now, I live in rifle zone. I'm lucky enough to be on the west side of County Road 6. Um, but I do a lot of hunting by the winery and shotgun zone as well. So, I will tell you based on my experience and a lot of western hunting, uh, as stated, rifles are substantially more accurate than shotguns. Um, just much more efficient as far as accuracy. They're also much more efficient at killing deer. I know that's kind of been mentioned, but the the ballistics of it is is very different than shotgun slugs, right? They put a very straight wound track through animals. They don't transfer a lot of energy. They're a very slow killer. Uh with with shotguns, that encourages multiple shots. That's part of the the reason we see as many incidents as we do in shotgun zones. U they just they don't die well with shotguns. Uh it's a problem for the deer. It's less humane. It's also a problem for hunters, right? When you have people just throwing rounds out there in front of running animals, which is typically the way that a lot of

people hunt in shotgun zone, it's it's inherently less safe than using a rifle with a magnified optic. So magnified optics are common place on rifle. They are not on shotgun. I will tell you that magnified optics offer a substantial advantage in determining what you're actually aiming at. So in 21 years in law enforcement, I can only think of one target ID mistake. I believe that was a young girl shot up by it was a northeast corner of the county. Um, it's hard for me to understand how that happens with any weapon system, but again, just the fact that rifles almost always include a magnified optic gives you a substantial advantage and actually identifying what you're shooting at. Along with that, rifles for the most part, we're talking bolt-action rifles. They're they're not meant for quick repeated rounds, okay? Nor is it necessary because they are much more efficient at killing deer. Deer typically fall over dead when shot with a rifle or hit properly. uh at a you know at a maximum they'll run a short distance whereas shotguns they can travel well beyond 100 yards even with a fatal hit. So, um, on top of the magnified optics, you have again, uh, typically a much lower round count. With with rifles, you're talking one shot, one kill compared to shotguns where deer drives are kind of the common stay. And I'm sure most people understand what that is. But shotguns, due to the limited range, since you can't engage at longer ranges, what most people will do is they'll simply get a group of people and they'll push through cornfields, they'll walk through trees, and everything that runs out the other end gets shot at. I will tell you, I've come as close to being shot growing up in shotgun zone as I ever did in combat. Uh it's it's just it's a whole different mindset. Um transitioning from shotguns to rifles encourages one shot, one kill. People typically move to elevated stands. We've seen some of these changes already when they change the season from the 2-day to the 8 to 10 day. Uh there's a lot less drives than there used to be, but I think switching over to rifles would really encourage a lot more ethical shooting. Um, as was mentioned by the last gentleman, I'm in the same boat he has. I have three kids. We have six different guns we have to try and

stay proficient with to kill deer because we hunt both sides of the line. Uh, again, as a firearms instructor and very well-versed firearms guy, teaching somebody to shoot a rifle with a precision optic on there is going to be much easier. You're talking much lower recoil, substantially lower muzzle blast with a lot of them. And you also can afford to shoot rifles. So shotguns currently with Sabbaths or Sable Slugs, you're talking four to five dollars per shot. It does not encourage people to go out and become proficient with their firearms at all. Uh people very rarely shoot shotguns. A lot of people don't shoot them well because they're extremely intimidated by them. The switch to rifles can really do away with the majority of that, especially now with the addition of suppressors. Uh I think that's going to wrap it up. I want to be respectful of your time. I do have a lot more information if anybody wants to talk to me offline. So thank you for the opportunity. Thanks, Jer.

Thank you. Go ahead. Hello, board. Thank you for your time. Um, I'd like to uh um just say he's pretty much stole every single Hang on a second. Need your name and address and

Oh, sorry. Ken Hansen from Garfield, Minnesota. Uh he stole every single square inch of my material, so I'll keeping it really short. Um everything he basically had to say is exactly what I wanted to say. Um, I live right across the street, um, from a waterfall production area up by Glenn's Towing. Um, literally 200 feet away from where people come out and go deer hunting with rifles. And I have had zero incidents on my property from anybody using a rifle. Shotguns, on the other hand, I have I've had my building shot three or four times. Um, I feel much safer with the guys out there with rifles. And it's it's no Um, you know, nothing new that we we like you said by Garfield, we we we can hunt on one side of the road is rifle. You go over here and you can hunt shotgun. So, it just to us it's never made any sense whatsoever. But, uh, it also doesn't change the fact that if you think about it, Minnesota has been a rifle zone state forever. We can go out and go coyote hunting and fox hunting with high-powered rifles except for during deer season throughout pretty much the whole year. And people are out there doing it right now today. Not only Douglas County, but every county in the entire state of Minnesota. And how many incidents have you ever heard of where somebody is injured or buildings are shot or whatever where people are out shooting at varmints with high-powered rifles? And m many of those guys are even using rifles like AR-15s or or similar weapon styles and there's just zero incidents out there. So take that into consideration when you guys make your decision that they're already out there doing it anyway for other animals besides deer. It it isn't just deer. It's you know it's it's the application that you're that they're using out there

and it's it's going on regardless whether it's deer hunting or not. And there is zero incidents. I don't think anybody can come up with one. Thank you for your time. Thank you.

Hi, I'm Ron Verant. I'm a resident of Alexandria, Minnesota. I have hunting land about 200 acres in Spruce Township and I'm essentially surrounded by rifle uh zone and I can actually hear the rifle shooting while I'm hunting on my land. Uh the uh I can I used I grew up in northern Minnesota where there was rifles on all the time of course and I'm very familiar with rifles and the accuracy of those which a lot of the speak previous speakers here have discussed and I won't uh duplicate. I think Brad Lake explained a lot of the things I was discuss but certainly the topography of my land is very similar to the land just west of me and north of me. It really isn't the same. It's the same with a mixture of crop land and CRP and swamps and woods. So, as far as safety issues of where bullets are going, it really makes it's no it's similar to to that that property. Uh safety differences of modern rifled shotgun zones, shotguns and rifles in this area, I think, is a mute point. Certainly, shotguns have gotten more accurate, though. Again, if you don't have if you have a if you just have a smooth boore shotgun, then that's very inaccurate. And then again, people are more prone to shoot multiple shots and maybe do more uh drives and maybe more bullets going in the air and more chance for injury. Um so that is a problem and I agree with the other speakers. Obviously, uh, in our zone, we have a three deer limit now because of the excess deer, and that was created by the by the DNR because they want to have us shoot more deer to try to eliminate decrease the chance of chronic wasting disease. Well, if you have a more accurate rifle uh, and shoot these deer, you're more likely to maybe diminish some of that uh, excess population. Um,

and uh, and also I think you know for people that have an opportunity to hunt in Minnesota, you know, I have relatives, son-in-laws and grandsons and neighbors and nephews that never had an opportunity to hunt big game and in the h they're in rifle zone if they're in rifle zones in in these states, but then they have to have a shotgun and buy a shotgun. for here you have a duplication of of firearms and it's a hassle of bringing them across state lines and putting it in on an airplane etc. And I think that doesn't make any sense either. So um I I certainly as a I certainly would love to use my 270 here and uh and use maybe my dad's 3030 as nostalgia to shoot a deer and have to use my rifled shotgun all the time. And I think uh there's I see there's absolutely no reason to not make Douglas County a rifled uh shot rifled zone area. Thank you.

Thank you.

Adam Johnson, I'm from Garfield. Had a bunch of notes, but uh between Brad and Daryl, they pretty much took all of them. Uh the only thing I'd like to add, a lot of concerns over the rifle is uh safety. So if you uh would want to look it up, there was a study done in Pennsylvania by Mountaintop Technologies along with the US Army Armament Research Development and Engineering was released in 2007 after there was a hunting death in Pennsylvania. They wanted to find out what was safer. A rifle will can shoot further than a shotgun. They compared a 12- gauge slug to a 30 odd six. To get the maximum trajectory out of a firearm, you need to fire it at 35° in the air. 30 odd six will travel 2.67 miles in their study. A 12 gauge slug 1.97. The argument of uh a slug doesn't go so far for their safer. Uh that doesn't really hold too true. If you measure the final distance after the uh rounds hit the ground at a zero degree angle fired parallel to the ground, a 12- gauge slug will travel further than a 30 odd 6. A 12 gauge slug will travel 1,735 yards. A 30 odd 6 bullet will travel 1,611. A 12 gauge slug has a much higher chance of a ricochet. an impact at a 12 degree or a 10 degree down angle. A 12 gauge slug has a 90% chance of a ricochet. A 30 odd six is 40. Anything over 12°, the chance of a 30 odd six ricocheting is almost zero. Most of the time deer aren't shot at up in the air. Most of time they're shot at level or down.

That's about the only thing those guys left for me to add. Thank you. Thanks, Adam.

Uh, my name is Craig Crook and I live here in Alexandria and I didn't ever think about this ever until I got old and broken, but I can't shoot anymore and it disenfranchises me from even hunting in in the county really. Uh, and I'm guessing I'm not the only person that has that issue. Um, my shoulders are really bad and I can shoot a rifle. I can shoot a a lower caliber rifle 223 uh 243 uh without any of the the energy from a shotgun straight back or rifle. It was more of a flip up. So, uh, that's pretty much what I have to say. And I think it does disenfranchise a lot of people being stuck with shotguns on. Thank you.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Good evening. My name is Dave Stoltz. I live here in Alexandria. And everybody's pretty much said everything I was going to say except for one thing. I've been hunting deer for over 40 years. I've shot them with a shotgun and I've shot them with a rifle. I've never shot a deer with a rifle and not gotten it. But there is no worse feeling as shooting a deer with a shotgun and tracking it for half a day until it runs onto somebody's land who won't let you go after it and going home that night and feeling like I wounded an animal and I didn't get to harvest it. That's the only thing I can add to this what everybody else has said, but there is no worse feeling as a hunter is shooting something and not getting it because I had to shoot it with a shotgun and I shot it several times and it still got away.

Right. Thanks, Dave.

I'll be short.

Got a tablet. Yeah. Hello, Mark. Good evening, commissioners. Thank you very much for this opportunity. My name is Mark Nory. I'm from Alexandria, Minnesota. Uh I'm also the chapter president of the local uh MDHA chapter here in ALEC. And uh just a quick u history lesson on this. About 5 years ago, our organization had a resolution presented to us to do away with the shot statewide shotgun. It went through our group. Uh we voted on it at our corporate board meeting and it passed. We then lobbied for it down in St. Paul and it didn't get much traction until the this caveat to this law came about where the counties could um decide whether or not they want to go rifle or stay shotgun. So it took five years to get this through. Um uh quick uh safety thing. Wisconsin last I seen and this our numbers from their department of natural resources since they went statewide rifle 12 years ago their accident rate has dropped 40%. Which is astronomical. Um, as far as uh hunting ethic, ethically, uh, I know my brother, myself, and two other guys that were all the same age. We grew up together since we were very, very small. We've got over 200 years of deer camp between the four of us, and I can only remember losing one deer in those 200 combined years. So, as far as being accurate and more ethical to the animal itself, I'm I'm all for it. So,

and if anybody has any questions, feel free to give me a call. Thank you very much for your time.

Thanks, Mark. Uh Steu Wood Alexandria here. Um I spent my middle school, high school, and college deer season. Um hunting deer all day and then going to my uncle's butcher shop in New York Mills skinning deer. I gone, if not hundreds, thousands of deer. I did that for years. Uh, fast forward after college, I owned the Barrett locker plant for five years. So, New York Mills is an Ottertale County rifle forever. Uh, Barrett is in Grant County shotgun for since 1942, which I learned tonight. Um, so I appreciate the stats that have been shared tonight. That's very interesting. my personal firsthand experience, uh, the vast majority of deer ice gun in New York Mills had one bullet hole. The vast majority, a very few would have two, and you'd get the bad shooter that would maybe have a few. Over in Barrett, very seldom was I not trimming a shoulder or throwing away a shoulder. it. Just about every deer I skun out had two, three, four holes in it. I think it's pretty obvious the more lead that's thrown um is going to be more dangerous. A deer typically runs after it shot hit, right? So, personal experience, I feel much safer in a rifle zone than a than a than a shotgun zone. Um so, that's what I wanted to share.

Thanks, Ste. Good evening, Dean Krebs, Alexandria, Minnesota. Um, wow, it's hard to follow all that. All my points were taken. I'll just add one thing, and that's about hearing. And I've got a little bit of ringing in my ears. I bet a lot of people here do, too. you can run right over to Lakes Area Arms and buy a suppressor on a rifle and protect your hearing. That option isn't available uh with the shotgun. So, uh I wholeheartedly uh agree with all the points were made tonight. I and I struggled to come up with one more thing, but that was it. Thanks.

Thanks, Dean.

Anyone else? Can I speak if I'm not on the list? You don't have to be on the list. You can come on up.

Go ahead.

Yeah. My name is Gary Ellis. Live over in the OAS area. I was always for the rifle to be the rifle season until about just recently when the DNR came out with a a new rule saying you could shoot a deer with a 22 caliber bullet as long as it was a center fire cartridge. I personally feel that we're going to see a lot of people out there with 22 250s and 22 23s and stuff and they're they're going to shoot a lot of deer and they're not going to find them. They the deer will be dead, but it'll be a couple farms over. Other than that, before that ruling, I was all for it.

Thanks, Gary. Thanks.

Hi, I'm Garrett Stites, uh, Volard, Minnesota. I currently own and operate Lakes Area Arms and the Alexandria Shooting Park with some other partners. Um, good morning or good evening, guys. Sorry about that. Um, I owned APF or Alex Pro Firearms for 10 years and there's a loophole in the state and federal ordinance where you can use an AR pistol in shotgun zone. So, a majority of your neighbors are already using rifles, but they're technically pistol because of state law and federal law. Um, anywhere from 308s to 65 gindles to 300 blackouts, two 223s. Um, and I can tell you the smiles on the face when they bring their kids in because the kids are actually shooting and killing deer and they're not getting beat up from the recoil of a shotgun. Something that was not touched on tonight is the boys in the blue. So, this is not a DNR, federal, or any other regulation. This is going to be the sheriff's office or local police departments. So when they're out there messing talking to someone in a deer stand for using a rifle and they have a more serious call in town where someone's hurt or injured and they're wasting their time and and our resources on those calls is that they are they're removing themselves from calls that need to be taken. Um I know domestics aren't great for police officers to go to and I don't think domestics and deer stands would be great either. Um, as a second amendment person, I believe that rifle zone should pass. I grew up in South Dakota and none of my friends were shot and we're shooting rifles all the time and that is a lot more open than it is here. Um, with that I will pass. Thank you.

Thanks, Garrett. Anyone else? I'm going to ask three times and after the third time if I don't hear anyone we will close the meeting. Anyone else? Good evening. David Strand, Kensington, Minnesota. I'm a lifelong hunter. A lot of slugs, some rifle. I have pistols that shoot the same bullet as rifles. Two inches of barrel difference. And I believe the state should state and Douglas County should change. I was vastly disappointed by Pope County in their ordinance that had very little to do with the original. Thank you. Thanks, David.

Go ahead.

Uh, Ma Max Max Radial, Alexandria, uh, Lake Mary Township. Um, most of my points have already been co covered tonight. Uh, I think the right rifle being more accurate uh, is is a is a big big issue. Uh you can take a rifle and hunt any other uh species that that uh hunters are out there after whether it's varmments or uh and so on with the rifle. even in low light situations like like uh when you're hunting uh varmments at night. Uh it just uh hunter people that are using the rifles h have got to be be aware of the consequences uh dur during those times. So, uh, I would be in support of the the rifle, uh, extension.

Thanks, Max.

Go ahead. My name is Craig Bluml. live up by uh well Spruce Hill Township, live in Eagle Bend, but I own and farmland on the Douglas County side and Todd County passed it to go rifle only or sorry, the whole county will be rifle if they choose. So that doesn't force anybody to use the rifle. They're still allowed to use a shotgun. So, if Douglas County doesn't pass, that creates that whole boundary with Todd County as an additional area. That is confusion with hunters and and mismatched firearms depending on where their property is. Uh, another reason I advocate for it is it's time. You know, this has been proposed on the state level numerous times. um all the data from the other guys that have already spoken between the accuracy of the new muzzle loaders um the ability to use the AR pistols and then also with our modern shotguns were already there. I remember 10 years ago sitting in the deer sand and as a joke with one of the kids we counted the the the shots on opening morning and I think we quit counting at like 100 rounds in the first hour of daylight. We tried that again here a couple years ago and it was it was surprisingly down to 30 or 40. Yet the deer harvest numbers are the same. So we've already done so much better with our hunting tactics to be just as successful with the new modern and upgraded firearms. Um another reason the uh the opposition is is always going to lean towards the side of safety and again there's data been shared that that's not the case. I think they're scared of change. And when change comes about, it's it's it's easy to fight it. But we went through this. Another example, I was uh I was 16. We all had a

heavy foot. Got a speeding ticket on I 20 on on just 29 north of town for driving 63 miles an hour. That wouldn't happen today. You know why? They increased the speed limit. So increasing the speed limit on a state highway, the state takes precedence over the county level. This is the same thing that's happening right here. And anybody that is afraid of switching to the rifles, they don't have to use the rifles. You didn't have to drive 60 mph on 29 when they changed the speed limit. You could still drive slower. So I think it's time. It's long overdue. Um it's it's not safety and I don't think we should be led to believe that safety has any part of it. So, thank you.

Thanks, Craig. Go ahead.

My name is Luke Kina. I actually live just across the line in Pope County. My mailbox is in Douglas. I do have an Alexandria address. One thing that I've heard concerns from people before, if you are rifle, people be shooting deer at long range. It's not necessarily the case. I hunt both in Pope and Douglas County and in Cass County in rifle zone. The only deer I have shot in rifle zone that I would not have shot with my saw gun was one buck I shot with aund at the time 121y old 3040 Craig shot about 150 yards. The gun I currently hunt in the slug zone with is a 300 blackout pistol. I would shoot that gun to 200 possibly 250 if I switched to optic on it. The range is not going to be much different. Most guys aren't going to hunt in a different stand than they hunt now. If they can only see 100 yards, they're not going to shoot any further. Personally, if I could hunt around here with rifle, I would be hunting with my historical firearms. Uh I've got a US service rifle collection going back to a a 1901 built 3040 Craig. I would love to hunt where I grew up hunting with that rifle, but I can't. But I can hunt with a 300 Blackout pistol or 65 Grenle pistol that is accurate and has performance well beyond the range that I could shoot that iron sighted rifle. The only difference between them on the legal standpoint is that the barrel is short enough the federal government says it's a handgun.

There's no performance difference. I shoot a 65 grandle in a rifle zone in a rifle in an 18inch barrel. I'll shoot that to 300 yards. If I had a 14 and a half inch barrel and it was a pistol, I'd still shoot at the 300 yards. That gun is well capable beyond that, but 300 yards is my limit where I feel I can accurately take a deer. There is going to be people that shoot too far if you go to rifle. They do it with slug guns. Now, I know guys that I've watched guys lobb slugs at deer in the middle of a section and well, if I see the slug hit the plowing, I should be able to hit it. Uh, you're always going to have people that do things they shouldn't do. It what firearm they're using isn't affecting that. It's probably worse with the slug gun because they don't think it'll travel that far. Uh, I quit hunting with my family largely because I didn't agree with how they hunted. They believed you do drives and just shoot everything you see. And there was times where I've had slugs go whizzing past me that I've heard them. I've never had that happen rifle hunting. We sit in our stands, we shoot our deer, we're done. I think the safety thing is blown way out of proportion and it never was an issue to start with. And I think the concerns of people about deer getting shot. I know there's people worried that somebody else is going to shoot their big buck and that's always going to happen. But I don't think allowing everybody to hunt with a rifle is going to change much. A lot of people probably won't change. They'll just shoot their slun because they can't shoot very far where they hunt anyways. It does them no good. My father is one of them. He He'll just shoot a slug gun because he can only shoot about 50 yards. Why spend the money to go buy a rifle? I think making a a ruling and to maintain the slug zone is honestly just a waste of time and resources.

Thank you. Thanks.

Good evening. Zach Jepson. I live in Grant County by Ashb. I have land in Spruce Hill Township and Miltown, a township I grew up by Leaf Alley. A couple points that I want to uh add on to a couple comments earlier. Um I went to the Grant County Board uh or meeting on Monday. I sat next to Dwight Lavatney last night at a basketball game. They did unanimously vote to go to rifle in Grant County. So, we still have the county the lines can be different as it states right now if we're going to remain shotgun. Another point that they brought up at that meeting and I don't know if this is a true statement or not, but they claim that they cannot touch the current rifle zone. So, from my understanding on what they had brought up, anything that is currently rifle in Douglas County is to remain rifle. Um, another thing that I just want to add on, I'm four rifle. Um, I have three kids, two boys, all hunt. I have a daughter coming up of age. She's going to be 10 next year. Um, I'm afraid I won't be able to get her in a deer stand for the simple fact that I've had her shoot trap. She's afraid of the shotgun kick. I've had her shoot my son's youth 243. Shoots it just fine. I'd like it to see it go rifle just to maybe keep some youth in the sport. Thank you.

Thank you, Zach.

Anyone else? Uh, my name is Eric Thasing. I live in Carlos. We farm. We hunt. Um, I wasn't everybody was very good speaking tonight and I wasn't going to say anything cuz everything was pretty well said. But I do want to reiterate that uh the youth and like the last gentleman this year I took my 10-year-old granddaughter hunting and I have a pistol. Um 243 and she shot it this year. Um back to the the shotguns and how bad they kick. Uh, I do have a suppressor on it. Uh, so we don't affect her hearing. Uh, she could shoot it with no recoil. Uh, she she's 10 years old and she's hooked on deer hunting and hunting now. Um, I shot my uh grandson's 12 gauge. I used to use a 12 gauge. I went to 20 gauge and then I went to the 243 pistol. Um, I do have a Thompson Center 7 mm08 that I've used for deer hunting because it's legal here in the shotgun zone and I've shot deer with that. Enjoyed that. Um, but if we can get back to my grandsons, I he told me he was target practicing with his 12 gauge this year and he said, "Grandpa, you should shoot that." And I thought, "Well, I used to shoot it. I shot it once. It was so loud it kicked me so bad. It's like I'm not going to shoot that. So why put kids and

youth and we want to get them in hunting and enjoying the sport? So right now is a perfect time to just leave this alone. The DNR made the decision. Why do you want to screw with it and be responsible about it and then you have to enforce it? So that's all I got. Thank you.

Thanks, Eric. Anyone else? Anyone else want to come up and talk on their behalf? I'm going to ask one more time and after that we're probably going to close the meeting. So, anyone else?

All in and done. All right, with that, I want to thank you all for coming. Um, what a great turnout. I did not expect that. I don't think we all expected this much of a turnout. I just want to let you know at this point, we are we are not doing anything tonight. I just wanted to make sure you let you know that we're just here to take your information. We'll consider your comments. Um, no mions or actions are going to be taken tonight. So at this time I