City Commission - workshop

Thanks for being here. I did not know that.

Thanks for having us, yeah.

No, this is great. Especially since you had to put up with me.

For next time. Not you, Mike.

It's a presentation from the Urban Land Institute TAP, and we're anxious to hear what you have to say. Sherry, can you take a roll for us, please? Here. Here. Here. Here. Okay, and we're calling the meeting to order. Okay, so Director Maddox, are you leading this, or no? No.

You're up, Dave. Oh, my turn? I didn't know y'all were waiting on me.

No, that's all right. Well, come on up and introduce yourself. I think most of us had the privilege of meeting you yesterday and your lovely team. So we're just anxious to hear what you have found out. Are you going to be going over a little bit? I know you met with each one of us. Are you going to be able to talk a little bit about the stakeholders and all of that?

We have a pretty complete presentation. So, yes. And we can kind of... Reverse, pause, take a little minute in between. How formal is this hearing and do I need to introduce myself, my name, my state of address and where I lived and like I got the police over here.

Well, I would like you to introduce at least yourself. Yes. Okay. Thank you.

So I'm Dave Crabtree. I am a local. You're born and raised. I have a residence in Flagler Beach. My parents live in Ormond Beach. My friends live right a couple blocks from here. So I am here often. And I'm here for Urban Land Institute. Urban Land Institute is a global institution. We do really great things across the world. It's all focused on human-centric, experience-forward placemaking and sensitive development. It can be small, medium, large. You guys can flip through. Do I have Flipper? There you go.

Yeah, sweet.

So what you, in our experience, we are, does this have a pointer on it too?

Yeah, there we go.

Yeah, cool. Here? You don't have screens? All right, cool. So we are a part of a two-day panel. Three days, we have a dinner, everybody meets. There's a lot of pre-meeting that goes in advance of that, where we've been meeting now for the last few months, discussing really how can we help you guys uncover the future of Daytona Beach Shores, otherwise known as the Shores. After this, we will be producing a report. This is really just a draft. You're seeing the second time we've presented this. The first time was to most of the folks in the room, and so this will be kind of off the cuff, and you are getting fresh data, so thank you for trusting us. It really truly does mean a lot. I've been doing these types of studies since my graduate studies almost 30 years ago, so it's really important for me as a local to still be doing this, but also for Urban Land Institute.

Dave, before you introduce your staff, Commissioner Clark's trying to connect by phone. Can you try him again, Mayor? I know he'd like to hear this, and I'm sure he'd like to hear it.

Is there a redial? Hey, Mark. It's Mayor Miller and the rest of the commission. Are you available to listen in?

Yes, ma'am. I was trying to call you. Maybe we were doing it at the same time, but yes, I'm available.

Okay, great. I just want to ask, I know we don't have the attorney here, Mike. Fowler, do you happen to know, do we have to take a vote on if it's okay for him?

No, because you won't be voting on anything. It's approved for him to. Thank you.

All right, Mark, we're ready to go then.

Yes, ma'am. Well, thank you for joining us, Mr. Card. We had a chance to speak also by phone, and I think we hopefully got to some of your comments, and I'm certain if we haven't, we will. We have a pretty well, beautifully established group of folks that were part of our panel, and it's a blend of development professionals. I'm an urban designer, architect, interiors, like to draw our crayons and work with cool people to do cool things. Our team is, we have Jessica. You guys know Jessica, so I don't need you to be certain she's a rock star. Salman is with Dart Interest. Dart is, if you ever look at the bottom of your Styrofoam cups, there's dart on it, that's dart. He doesn't make Styrofoam cups, they actually do world-class mixed-use development all across the southeast. They're responsible for developing most of the Cayman Islands. They have the Evermore development over in, by Disney World, 1500, if someone can correct me. It's a giant. They do really cool things with the human experience and the curated lifestyle that you're also trying to create. Miss Angela, she is with our group. Angela? She's focused more on grant writing with us, but she has a history in community art, pop-up events, and also interior design. Larry, Mr. Larry, where you at? Larry? He's the executive director. They're in economic redevelopment for Merritt Island, so very much in tune with some of the things you guys are trying to reconsider. Miss Sharon, she's from RMA. They're down in West Palm. They do amazing things with urban planning, urban design, sort of across the board, but also into renaming. And so, like, if you were going to rebrand something, and how would you kind of roll that out, whether it's a development or a city? She has a personal experience in event planning, curating. And one of your first things that y'all could really do today is curating your city. You're already doing it, but who are the people and the places and the events? And not just the yearly. It's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, just like you do for a lot of your community space here. How do you do that same level of curation for your entire city? That's her background. Does that do a good job?

Excellent.

All right, cool. And then my buddy Cody. Cody and I work together quite a bit. Amazing landscape and urban designer. They were part of the park for the promenade over at Beach Street, so the new park that runs all along there. So that's his background, but he travels the U.S. doing creative urban, suburban, all kinds of development around landscape architecture and urban design. And Jack is not here. He unfortunately had to leave early for a funeral. But you guys know Jack. I assume everybody knows Jack White, local community-focused boutique developer. So he was an amazing asset. That's the type of mindset. I mean, while you have large-scale projects, you also have small-scale projects here. And in fact, it's going to be balancing those. Now, that's a lot of words up there, and I'm not reading them all. But here's a short version. It's basically, you asked us to help you figure out how to be a better mixed-use, walkable, livable community. and what are some of the ways in which we can help you in branding, place making, policy, economic development tools and strategies to help catalyze that. That's the short version.

Is that good for y'all?

Good. So some of the common themes that we were hearing is what is the sort of branding and identity, and this came, when I say common themes, as we met with all of you guys, and also met with community stakeholders, landowners, developers, brokers, these were the things that we were hearing. We heard these from you before we got here, so that's the good news. And I think I also heard some of these when I've come to some of your community meetings, also the good news. So branding identity, what's in a name? You guys have a luxury brand, from my perception as a youth that grew up here, and how do you continue to embrace that as the shores? Your beach access and coastal design elements, your beach is your core asset. How can you be the shores without a beach? That makes sense, right? Growth philosophy, incremental. and curating. Now we did come up with Polish the Funk. Now when we get my buddy Jack White, he came up with Polish the Funk. I think y'all should embrace the funk here. So the cool, the funky, the leftover, left behind, that's what you're trying to elevate. Over time, you'll have the large scale development come in. Don't worry about that. The blighting and the beautification, we know that's an urgent issue, and that's kind of tied to embrace the funk. Yeah, they need to do something with those properties, but how can you help incentivize that? The town center location, we don't have a good answer to that quite yet, but for a good reason. So it'll make sense once you see some of our studies, because you have multiple opportunities, and that's pretty much what we heard. Some people sit here, some people sit there, and we'll figure that out for you. Height and density. The rule here is comfortable density. There's room for things to be taller in some places, but for the most part, keep them at moderate scale so over time things fill in appropriately. Economic incentive tools. Economic incentive tools will be critical and focused. They shouldn't be spread all over like peanut butter. Find where you really want to make an impact. So that comes back to some of your what is your town center. infrastructure and governance. You guys are amazing. You are an active in one of the most active engaged cities that I've worked with and that's one of the critical ingredients for any future development to work. Your demographics, that's come up a lot about how is that changing and shifting while you have a retirement community here. You also have middle-aged folks that live here. You have a youth population that's also coming up. So embracing all of those anchors and connectivity. And that really ties back to your town center is you kind of need to start to focus where those are going to be and define those anchors. So we'll help you on that. And the other one, and I think you guys would be into this, is partnerships and collaborations. I feel like you guys are an entrepreneurial group of people. You understand that. These aren't your properties, but you're here to represent the property and the people. And I think private-public partnerships could be a path for some of your future. I'm going to pause there for a second. Any other thoughts or questions before we move forward? So some of our recommendations. We're going to focus on a few things. One is going to be urban planning strategies. Two is going to be urban policy, performance-based design guidelines. And then three, we'll talk about the districts that we are seeing and the considerations you might find helpful. So on urban planning strategies, the first and foremost, and you'll hear this repeat, is the shores. You need to embrace being the shores, create policy and guidelines that fulfill that vision. and build what you believe while not losing what has made you amazing so far. Some of the next steps y'all need to take there is internal visioning sessions beyond, and you can reach out to people and go deeper. We're kind of helping you with that. But there should be four or five core principles of what it means to be the Shores, and you do not lose those. That is the baby. You change the bathwater, don't throw out the baby. So you'll find some of those from this, but I think that, We request that from any development we're part of, not just as a city. When I work with corporations to figure out what they want to be when they grow up, we define vision, design, principles, and we hang on to those with our dear life.

I just want to clarify before we go any further. As you probably know right now, all the commission did last week was give the residents the ability to vote, and we put on the ballot. So whatever the outcome is that, whether it passes, Can we still embrace this even if we're still Daytona Beach Shores? Absolutely. All right, I just want to clarify that.

You know, what's in a name? Look, if you guys formally choose your name to be, and the people here have said, hey, we want our name to be the Shores, amazing. Most of us call it that anyways. I found it difficult to continue to say Daytona Beach Shores every time I said your name in these presentations. It's a mouthful.

Just wanted to make sure. Thank you.

The other, and you'll see a dirty word up there, it's the RA. incentive-based districts. Now, whether you can have a CRA or you can create incentive districts or whatever you want to call them, we do need to find a way for you to create NIDS, TIF districts, and find and define clear transformational ways for that money to be reinvested into the community. There is a path for that legally. I understand the previous struggle, so I also understand the concern about even using the word CRA. But thinking like that is going to be important. If you don't even have a CRA, just focus your incentives in the areas that we're going to recommend. Incrementalism. That's exactly what it sounds like. Balance the small incremental change, the lighter, quicker, cheaper. Things that you can do today versus these large transformational projects. You have room for both. The people streets. That is getting streets redesigned for people. Now, some of that can be in the lighter, quicker, cheaper. There's pop-up type of events that you can do. There's movable plantings that you can put out, allowing your vendors to put signs out on the sidewalk that kind of create a space and a place that defines them so people don't drive by dark storefronts knowing who's inside. There's all kinds of ways where you take back your streets for people, not just cars. Now, we can also redesign them with large design. All of that stuff happened with DOT, state DOT, all of those people. So yes, there's layers to that. But take back your streets, because people attract people. you every place think about some place that you've been in your life your most amazing place you've ever traveled to what attracted you to your place most likely it was a really cool street with a really little cool cafe probably some tiny little chair that you sat in next to some ram shackled little cool plantings that wasn't that planned but felt comfortable things don't have to be master planned to be amazing they just need to be comfortable and well thought out so take back your streets coastal context don't forget your coastal city But you're not every coastal city. Don't look at Myrtle Beach and be like, well, they did it there, so that's what we're going to do here. Don't look at Daytona Beach. It's close. I get you. And you're probably not going to look there for all kinds of reasons. Don't look at Miami either. And somebody said plenty of times, well, we're not Fort Lauderdale. No, you're not. And I say that also understand your context because your coastline, my friends, faces this way. It faces northward, which means, you know, when you build buildings, they have a different impact to its prevailing winds, sunlight, solar access, all that stuff. Which way south beach faces? That way. South being down, north being up. They get a lot more light on their beach. Myrtle Beach, all those do south. You don't think about it like that, but by the time that coast comes up, it's facing very southward. So think about your context when you're doing development patterns and developing codes and why density can matter in some places versus others. That's critical. Celebrate your coastline. Now this is personal to me as a young kid that loves to surf. Grew up here surfing. I always embraced every beach approach I could because every time is a snapshot of the waves and the freedom that I was going to have when I got out of school and I could go surfing. Well, you feel that same relief as you drive down the coastline and that's a visual, physical, and psychological access. You can develop that as you're thinking about your urban design codes. That can be built into that. You guys are already doing that. You have a give back of right away when somebody builds a new building. Those are small ways that you can consider. There's many others. Creative development, private public partnerships is the other key urban planning strategy, if you will. Any thoughts or questions about those?

Mark, did you have a question?

So we'll get into some of the performance-based guidelines. Now these aren't code, but they are where you would go in that next level of granularity, comfortable density strategies, and tradable density. So for example, looking across your platform We've heard somebody say, well, we need buildings to be 40 stories to be efficient, because it's just more. And that's actually factual. They weren't lying to you. Once you build to 30 stories, it's actually best to go right up to super high rise code of 420, because you maximize all the infrastructure within that.

But you might not want 40 story buildings, or maybe you do.

And maybe you don't want them everywhere. So tradable density is like, well, you can buy those rights from your neighbor. And it's like, I can put them here. Or tradable density would be like, well, if I put mixed use at the ground floor of my building, and I use 30 foot of that ground floor, I can get 30 more feet up above, for example. And you may not choose to do that everywhere. You might say, you know, that needs to be for signature corners. There's lots of layers to this that doesn't mean you do it everywhere. I would also say comfortable density. We've heard people say, well, the west side has to be higher than 45 feet for it to make any sense for us. Well, it doesn't have to be that way everywhere. There's plenty of cities that are 45 foot tall high limits to do amazing things. When the park's one of them, some of your beach towns, St. Armand Circle, all these places people love within 45 feet there's a lot that you can do that however there is room for improvement for some 65 to 85 foot districts because that is real because if you look around at mixed-use development and some of what the community is enjoying about examples of future development patterns those are like 65 foot to 85 foot tall buildings they can be I'd say five to seven stories roughly and that depends on the floor to floor heights but incentivizing Buildings moving towards the street, finding a way to have the buildings become more active is critical. Incentivizing, we talked about the physical-visical Physical and visual psychological access to your waterways, between sites, through sites when possible, and directly. So as you start to think about any areas where you can continue to get more direct access to your coastline, because over time we know the coastline has some erosion issues, whether you beach nourish or don't, you still want people to get to the beach. Activate your storefronts. That is with flexible type of design. It doesn't have to be restrictive. It's helpful to people, in fact, because their businesses are going to flourish and people that build buildings that are gonna then lease them have more leaseable buildings when they create flexible, well-designed ground floor storefronts. Now, some of the codes also need to be more flexible with their ground floor uses, because we found in the code research that some of your ground floor uses are a little restrictive. So, bring that up a little bit. Sidewalk activation. Some of that's based on the tenants and building owners. Some of that could be based on you guys helping them curate events. Wind Down Wednesday Art Walks, jazz festivals that have, you know, take down, shut down the street. And I would get aggressive with it. I've shut down Dunlaughton from like Peninsula to A1A. And you say, Dave, you're crazy. I'd say no. That sets a pattern that we are taking back our city and our streets. People then sense like, hey, we're taking back our city and our streets. And you've seen that's the giving gift. When you give a gift and then somebody else gives a gift, people start to create that sort of pattern. So find those places to take back your streets, activate the sidewalks, get people in the private businesses, everybody engaged. Multi-modes of transportation. We've heard about water taxis. I think those could be amazing. They, of course, have to have something to connect to. Maybe they don't connect to Port Orange. Maybe they connect down to the inlet. Maybe you're connecting to other places. I know Ormond Beach had talked about doing a water taxi over downtown as well. Half the people here said, well, I'd love going to the Deck Down Under, but I also like going to the Tacoma Tiki Bar. Well, I mean, that's a long taxi ride. I mean, a water taxi with some drinks along the way might not be bad. And your goal is to have a good time. So think outside the box. Trolleys, those could be mindful or could work. if mindful on the patterning, the timing, and then also they've had to be connecting to something, because I know that's a case of people get trolleys and they're like, well, we don't connect to anything, why not take it? So in terms of your smaller spaces, As you start to develop urban buildings, and I know the idea of a pocket park can sometimes have a negative connotation, but when you develop bigger buildings, then you also want to build in building breaks that create positive spaces for breezeways, retail courtyards, connectivity for people, so that you don't have, if you get bigger development patterns, not just giant buildings that you break down the scale. And you'll notice that when you go to Worth Avenue or go to any other amazing place that we've all loved, they have those little pocket parks. Go to Park Avenue, the little hidden gardens. You walk off the sidewalk and you're like, how did I get in this hidden garden? Those are amazing spaces and places. Those contribute to helping to codify granularity, scale, and materiality. So when you start to have bigger building patterns, having codes that help encourage people to break those down. Those aren't restrictive. You still get to build a building, it's just how do you break down the scale of the building. Really promoting and incentivizing adaptive reuse. That's celebrating the funk. Because that's your more near term. The fact that somebody's going to come in and do a $100 million development is very possible. Somebody to do a renovation with a facade grant along Dunlaunton short term and it you'd also try to help them with the expediting permitting and so on and so forth that's in another slide and creative programming that one really should be first because that is the lighter quicker cheaper and that's not just for you but that goes back to the cruise ship director mindset if you could have somebody today right after this meeting immediately go and start brainstorming the events that you haven't done yet on Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday and Friday not the annual event not the biennial event it's when you go on a cruise are you waiting for the annual event no there's something to do every day every hour and just like you're doing with some of your programs here at this building is like that level for the city is really that curation that you're looking for at some point you might even consider that you need to go to hiring of extra person or you know get an outside vendor that you work with all of those are possibilities and then the next and final is layering and branding environmental graphics you have some of that now we all know life is better here because when i drive here in the morning time i see the signs along the way but what's that next layer? And you might find the districts that you're trying to grow layering in something more there. So any thoughts or questions on those guys? All good? So district considerations. Now you're gonna see some scribbly sketches in here, and these are rainstorms of people that have a pretty good context of place. We've had a lot of conversations. But these are not designs. These are not a developer that's like, hey, I'm going to go do this. This is all... I don't want to say pie in the sky because that sounds like they're not attainable. But I want to put that out there because once people see sketches, they're like, oh, no, this is... It's going to happen tomorrow. And I also don't want to scare anybody in the audience. They're like, oh, no, they drew a road going here or something going there, and that's on top of my business. So none of this is like, you know. So these are just brainstorms so that we can help you understand the future of what these districts might be.

Is that fair?

So the areas we're looking at is this is your broader coastline that you have. Where we're seeing some places for, say, the branding and sort of identity around becoming a district would be Dunlaughton Gateway, the Sunglow Pier area, the government center where we're here now, the North Town Center, the Aldi site. And that one's kind of been difficult because we call it the town center because it's got a town center designation, but we'll call it the North Gateway and the sort of northern town center. Those should all be familiar to you guys. Everybody pretty grounded where we're talking about? Now, here's your coastline when you see a series of five-minute walking radiuses, and that's always something good to think about. Now, I know the map's kind of grayed out, but if I go back here, it's the same map. So just visualize that map for a second, and you see where the bridge is, and you see where the pier is just to our south there on that map, and then our northern edge. When I take that same map and I put those five-minute walking radiuses, what you really start to see is it's like if I'm on Dunlop and I'm only going to walk so far, and that creates a pretty nice walkable district. I could be over there at Jimmy Hula's having a beer and a taco, and I could walk down to the beach, and it wouldn't be that much of a stretch. If Pirate's Cove still had a bar over there, I might go to that bar, and then I might go over here and have a cup of coffee or whatever. That's a very walkable area. I start to take a right, and I'm just going to walk down to the pier. I'm probably gonna do that, but a lot of people might not. You know, we lose about 50% of our population. So Dunlaughton District, as you start to think that gateway, is it probably can turn left and right a little bit, and that would be pretty walkable and meaningful as a gateway zone from the river all the way to A1A, and as it turns left and right, you have a very well-defined gateway district. You can see in your, what we call the wellness hub that came up is because y'all have a lot of sports and activity here. you're kind of in a five-minute circle just as this little hub. So you can pretty well, and you see that. You know, people walking from the condo to the Publix to the community center, so on and so forth. So that just kind of gives you a scale of things. Now, when you think about all those, if I was really being ambitious, that I should have a beach access in each one of those, then do you? No, I don't know that. Some you do, some you don't. And so that's the level of like, well, how far should I have to walk to get to a beach if I don't have a condo I have to walk up over and down and over and meander because otherwise that's going to help create your value for the, you know, the small mom and pop houses that are in the neighborhood. So thinking about walkability, you know, and access to your beaches, that next layer. So when we talk about visual, physical, psychological access to coast, it's not just for the sake of it. It actually creates a broader value for your entire community. So some of the common tools that you've heard us talk about that I think applies to all of its future districts to celebrate the funk. Look for some shared parking analysis where people can share parking, cross parking, maybe reduce the parking. If you have, there's code constraints right now where businesses are like, hey, you told them you had to have five cars per thousand and like really a three per thousand would be more sustainable. And then you do the parking analysis and it's like people will share it, it all works well together. Those would be huge. That's in a lighter, quicker, cheaper bucket because then that helps what we heard businesses say is, well, I like to go from, you know, Cows or Bird and then the wine store that's next door that sometimes she doesn't have people come in and, you know, there's parking sometimes but not sometimes. And so just thinking about all of that. That would help any of these areas. Some are fine, but just thinking about that. Because as you start to develop, you don't want to overpark it because parking kills deals every day of the week. $25,000 a space for a structured parking, like 5,000 space for a parking space in a parking lot. So when you start building these big office towers or condo towers and so on and so forth, this is not cheap. So any mixed use development that comes on board, being mindful of the parking counts that are realistic. Incentivize heavily the facade grants, the rental incentives. and other incentives, but I would target them in the areas we're looking at. And you might even say, and that would be a determination, I think, really for you guys, not for us, you might say, well, we believe as a city, and y'all get together and figure this out, that it should be this place versus this one, and we'll do this one for five years, really poured in and then this one for five years after or whatever but think about that because you don't have unlimited budgets you're really you're working with taxpayers don't expedite permit approvals those be easy to do and that would be across all these districts update and install additional way finding and signage that be across all these areas and the people streets take back your streets for your people so just as an example And I want to be transparent about the challenge of taking back your streets. And doing what I'm going to show you requires, again, from people in the audience, like this doesn't happen tomorrow. These are state DOT streets. So you don't get to do what you want. It's negotiation. But you currently have way more street than you need for the amount of people you have here. Some of that's for evacuation. So your biggest constraint, as we've talked to DOT, is there's plenty of cities that have redone their streets with the DOT. In your case, you're an evacuation route. So they have success stories where that's also happened, but it takes a lot more engagement. And they're a little bit skittish at what happened up in Daytona, because now after the fact that they changed the roads and then the people came out before that fact, that they want a lot of community engagement. They're reluctant to say, well, sure, you just go ahead and do that. We do this all the time.

It's doable.

So with that in mind, do you take some of your street back? And the idea being, and I call it creative street making, is you could take some of it for shade trees and nice wispy tropical grasses like mooly grass and lavender and other things that would bring sound and senses. Have bike lanes and all that stuff. Parking off to the side. There's many other iterations of this, but what this does also do is leave a lot of capacity because during an evacuation, you could take all of those lanes back for one-way traffic. So that would be the magic for design professionals later. Our goal here is while we're design professionals, we're here to just set the stage, to set the table for other future smarter people to do it even better. And so this would be a place for those folks to dig in. Some of that you might be able to do. Sometimes you'll see parallel parking. You can imagine the lane that says bikes, that could be parallel parking as well, but just striped. So during the weekends and the days, it's parallel parking, everything. And you can do it time-based. You can say, hey, only after business hours and everybody's driving to work and from this time to this time when businesses need that parking more than you need lanes. So there's layers of strategy there. So, Don Lawton Gateway. And there'll be some sketch overlays on top of this that, you know, they'll hopefully make sense. These are very loose, they're not final illustratives. So what this starts to look like, and some of the things we've been saying is, you have a couple of, and I guess my pointer doesn't really work well on screens. There's very few large lots. So in this particular case, you're mostly going to get granular, small-scale redevelopment. The little casual bird, and I wish I could point at it, and if I could.

Maybe you could show us so I can tell where.

Yeah, it's, you know. Ah, it does work here. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Just to the further to the right there. That's the corner building. Casual Bird's right there. So you get the sense of scale of what a, that's a very functional building. That little cube right there is Casual Bird. So that gives you a sense of there is another building just further to its right that's got some diagonal lines across it. That's probably like a 10,000 square foot building. That's a sizable development for somebody. You know, they could infill. So you could fill in a little bit over time, reuse. What's there, the Volusia County building, try to encourage them to either sell it to somebody so somebody can do something cool with it. That would be great. It could be a food hall. It could be another food shop. It could be a combination of soft goods and people selling, a dress shop. I mean, it could be lots of things. Those are plenty of places. Now, on the end, where the CVS is, the big corner lot, at least try to get something on that corner, the really dark corner. red corner there that you see that's right at the corner of A1A and Dunlaughton on the upper left side. That would be an amazing place for at least something. But you see a bigger square building there. That whole block could be a mixed-use development. That's a parking deck with liner wrap. That could be an 85-foot tall mixed-use development, that corner anchoring it. I don't think that's going to happen today. They could actually break the putt-putt into a developable lot, because that's a separate ownership. And the CVS, those are two, those could be split incrementally. Both of those individually, pretty large-scale development there, anchoring your A1A and Dunn-Lawton. Now, over time, I think this would be more of the 30-year projection, is those residential properties behind there, for you to have that as large-scale mixed-use development blocks, which I don't see the really need for, And it's much off in the future. You would need large lots that depth going back to that next block to be able to do a bunch of large mixed-use development. But again, it might not be needed. Look at Park Avenue. They don't have those big blocks like that. So they've been a city for a long time. So it's perfectly fine. In fact, what kind of holds some cities back is having big lots because they're not ready for that level of development. They really just need small lots. developing incrementally along the way, shared parking, grassroots focused, intensify with incentives, people taking back the streets and the sidewalks, pop-up markets, as much as you can. Some of the parking lots that are over there is, oh shoot, I forget the restaurant now, is that Genovese's? Where is it, Genovese's?

Genovese's.

Yeah, yeah. Their parking lot, for example, They probably need that parking, but some of the parking along the edge, there's no reason why some days they couldn't do a pop-up market out on those parking spaces out along the sidewalk. So people know they've been there for a long time. But that's my point, is think creatively about how to activate this place. It's not always building a $500 million building. Does that all sort of make sense, or any questions around that? I didn't talk about traffic calming, gateway elements, You know, large scale branding and signage could be an opportunity there. Really celebrating people coming down and through at the beach approach and, you know, seeing the beach. You know, that's a really good opportunity. Collaborating with the City of Port Orange and their Down Under District. You know, co-events. If you decided to shut down the street, you know, does that work with them and what they're doing maybe combining they have theirs defined as a CRA currently so and it's through I think 2036 if my memory is right I could be wrong in that exact year but it's something to that effect a couple other considerations Sun Glow Pier Area now the With the base of the pier, I know that's privately owned property, and the property is around it, but it could be a way to draw people a little further to the south. That is much more neighborhood. My buddy lives across the street from the Admiral condo tower. We walk up the street, go to 7-Eleven, go to the beach. I mean, we go to the Sunglow Pier. So it's very walkable, neighborhood-focused kind of feel to it. But as you move forward, those lots could be developed. I don't think Today they're going to happen with 85 foot tall, so I'm starting with this because of this idea that some of the developers have said, well, we need taller buildings on the west side of A1A. Those lots are big enough to do that. You can come in there with parking decks and mixed-use development and high-rise living up to 85 foot, 65 to 85 foot, and those would be probably a doable project for somebody if they would pencil out. They probably don't today, so you don't have to worry about it. The lot in front of the pier has the ability to be developed, and it's currently a parking lot. That's the worst parking lot ever. Every time you drive in it, then you gotta back out, because everybody else is backing out too, because they got trapped. So, you know, maybe thinking about this at a smaller scale, what if they were just smaller buildings with surface parking across the street? They don't need all those parking spaces even for the pier. In fact, we were looking at their numbers there between what they need for their, they can build buildings across the street and in front of their pier, and probably still have enough parking left over. Now, a smarter, longer study would figure that out. But those are things to consider. And you might even go smaller. You might have a splash garden at the base of that pier. with a little tiny pop-up building right at the corner's edge that maybe it's an out-of-hand taco stand. One of their brands. It's their property. They're entrepreneurial. But that could be encouraged or at least suggested to them. You can't make a private person do anything with the property, but those could be the types of things that could happen there as a next layer of development. So you don't really need a giant mixed-use development there. In fact, I would say the scale of this is more neighborhood vibe. Your current 45 foot property or height limitations works pretty fine. And over time, if somebody really ambitious had something, you could do it as a PUD. So yeah, we'll give you the height and density of some of the other areas. And if you had enough of those requests, then yeah, then you change the code. Most likely what we're suggesting is find your districts where you really need the 60 to 85 foot and change those so that they are codified and incentivized. And the areas that don't really need it, you let them stay 45 foot. Um, the government center, this one's going to freak some people out because this is y'all's land and it's got some of your buildings on it. Funded suggestion. I'm just a dumb architect. Okay. That's it. Um, so we're cool with that. Any other questions up to now? So like, oh man, this is a lot to describe without being able to put a pointer on here. Um, so this would be your opportunity for a private public partnership. And so you have land that's highly valued, and you have programs that's also highly valued. You need your people and your public safety folks and everybody else to be able to go to work. Now, public safety is down to the south, so I know enough about that site that you're not moving that anytime soon because it's high-valued infrastructure. I know you've got some public works people in there. They're highly valued, too. And I don't want to put one person over the next. It's just the property to the north was a much easier target in terms of what's currently there That is, my friends, is a large-scale mixed-use development on your city-owned property. We're not suggesting you do that, but that's how some people are doing P3 developments where you could imagine A $300 million, 400 key multi-family deal with structured parking and gardens and retail at the base and all that happening. And you and development folks figure that out. And you in that land swap also get new buildings and you're putting your people either back in that building someplace or however all that works. It all works very fine. a complex deal that's not going to happen tomorrow this would be some perspective for me where is publix yeah that's um so yeah there's publix right there and then in in fact in front of publix there's an opportunity for more mix if you were creating a true urban sort of town center if you will this could all be the scale of development that folks saw that they liked that the um community presentations, there was like the middle scale. This would be that scale of development. And these lots are the big enough size to be able to accommodate it. In fact, it's one of the few places in your city where you have the larger contiguous lots where you could do that scale of development easily. It's not that it can't happen in other places. So yes, Publix is there. Find your community center. Yep, right there, there's community center. So you still have that LA of trees that leads us to the community center. And just as you go northward, north of the community center and hang a right, that is a large-scale mixed-use development. That would be a parking deck there in the middle, gardens. You can see some of your condo towers across the street. You can get the sense of some of those towers and how big they are.

And where's Chase's bank? I'm a little bit lost. Where's Chase's bank?

That one?

I know the bank building you guys are just is... And then what did you say about in front of Publix? There's space in front of Publix?

Yep. So that Publix has got a building in front of it called Mixed Use Enfield, for example. And then do you imagine where the Walgreens is, for example? That's a public park now with a pavilion in the middle for... outdoor theater concerts and all of that and it has two smaller scale buildings flanking it to its south and to its north so those would be like retail mixed-use maybe just a couple of stories it's all they could be bigger in fact I'll show you an option where you do even larger development there and this is far off so I don't for the people at Walgreens and everybody else like this is so far out they'll be coming in here and saying hey the property's worth a bunch of stuff because there's not enough demand for this kind of development Today, if you asked us to say what's going to happen over the 20, 30 years, could this happen tomorrow? Sure, if somebody had $500 million to come pour into your city, but that demand's not there. Right now, they're focused on doing the Valor product and other types of deals. But for you guys to think as a city, how you might plan your assets that you have, now's the time to think about it. that i think the other more likely thing that's different in this one for example in front of go back to the public's and there you leave the parking lot a good bit of it and then along the edge of a1a you might have some smaller buildings that pop up there like 2 000 square foot little out parcels for example that's the more likely thing that would happen there and so it you know so in the short term or near term you're going to keep having a the walgreens there the other with publics, it's their private land. They might choose to do an out parcel idea like that, but maybe your current codes aren't allowing for it. Parking counts, I know a lot of parking gets eaten up there, but that parking lot's not 100% full. You know, there's room for some smaller little boutique buildings at the edge of A1A that continue to bring them more rental income, you know, so they get at least more space. And then you get more desirability along A1A as people are driving and coming to and from wherever they're going. The other little spot, for example, you might consider is front of the tennis courts. You could imagine doing a cool, like we call it the prickly pickle. It's like a little pickleball indoor food hall, court, bars, wellness bars, and so on and so forth that's overlooking your tennis courts. So instead of a parking lot, there's plenty of parking around here. Find some other parking for people, and yeah, I get it. Some people need to walk, and they're looking at me like, man, get out of here with your crazy ideas. That could be another place where you own that land. People love health and wellness here. Is there another level? Why do they need to drive over to Holly Hill to whatever the pickle stand place is that they got for their pickle bar? They could be at your place.

Go back to the first one again. On the Publix, I think I tend to disagree with you. On Fridays, when our snowbirds are coming, you cannot find a parking space at Publix. Most of the time, the snowbirds are there. I want to Identify to me that side lot. That one seems to be pretty empty. Can you point that out to me so it would be north of Publix? Which side? South of Publix.

Let me go back also to the aerial. So here's your aerial. And these are allayed just over top of it. Yeah, that would be the southern little lot there.

That looks like that might be more open to me. Had you identified anything going in there?

We did look at think something could because we also would think that if you watch this for a second when i come back to this we think the street there should come through it so we did at some point think yes a little tiny building can go there so as you go for that that street might want to connect through the challenges it goes through one of your public parks so i was like well that's not that could be contentious but then yes that little where your cursor just was go up where your cursor is and down to where that lot typically is, the little side lot right there. That would be connectivity coming through and room for another little building.

That makes more sense to me.

And those are the things where we would, you know, as design professionals, we'd really dig in and figure that granularity out, you know, because those are good questions. And yes, if parking is tight, like you said, then, you know, I don't, Well, if you did the mixed-use development that's shown in this one, parking ends up in structured decks. So you're resolving that by filling the entire lot with mixed-use development that also has structured parking so the parking comes back. And that would create the space between that building and Publix as more of an urban sort of walkways, sidewalks, and that kind of vibe. And Publix is accommodating urban Publix. It's actually one of the first grocery stores to do an urban Publix. The first one was in Miami. The second one is in Thornton Park. Lake Yola, 25,000 square foot boutique. What other thoughts on these? You know, it's hard to do here, but for this, the blue lines are visual, but more connectivity to the beach in this area. It's kind of difficult because the side setbacks are established and there's differentiation in grade and heights because of the parking decks and everybody built through the lines, and that's no fault of theirs. But having more connectivity to the beach Um, and then also, you know, you have a big seawall there, so when you get over there, it's like, I know that's difficult, so it's easy to say, like, how do we get people to the beach in this area without them coming down? You might consider the, um, the Sandy, you got a piece of property that you recently sold or got under contract, I guess it is, but, like, that, I think it is, like, um, the green space that we have there, that would be an amazing spot for, um, At least some kind of public park. We put a big green on it. It doesn't need to be a giant public park for, you know, all that. But because that's at the sort of southern end of this district, that would be another great place to have a little, whether it's a 15-foot little sliver that gets you to the beach or if there's more available or what have you. You know, so, again, not trying to take private development space just, you know,

One other question now that you're bringing the beach up. So, you know, there's a lot of conversation about opening more of the beach up to beach drive and closing it up. Do any of these that you're anticipating here rely on if beach driving is continue or not or that has nothing to do with it?

It's not. But we do discuss the the idea that you all need to be planning for that. It's a it's a high level recommendation. I foresee beach driving being here. because I don't think it goes away completely. People have the right to get to the beach, but also where they get and how they get. And for cities, your challenge is if you don't, and this would be the conversation with the county, and it's what I've heard in the past as a kid growing up here, fine, you take the beach parking off there, but you're going to build a parking deck. where you have to buy some other off-beach property. So for the county to take the parking off, I think they'd have to be asking the question, like, well, where are those people going to park at? And right now, in that area, you don't have any place to park. So I was like, well, seems like you shouldn't take them off the beach. Now, that's me. I'm not a politician. I just, you know, now I'm not even speaking as somebody from ULI. I'm speaking as a kid that grew up here and is like, well, we'd like to go to the beach. And there's plenty of places that don't have parking on the beach. I live in Flagler Beach. don't drive on the beach you don't have driving on the beach at all but i live a block from the beach and they have a mile and a half long boardwalk that has parking all along the beach and so like i can pull up any day of the week and find a parking spot and set for saturday if i get there late you know but my house is a block off the beach so i don't worry about it my point is is there's needs to be solutions i do think the county's over time been buying more land but when we talk with them recently and today yesterday excuse me I said, y'all still buying land? He said, right now we're not buying land. I was like, okay. So, you know, they did in the past. I can tell you as a young graduate student that was doing shade and shadow and density research for University of Florida with City of Daytona Beach in like 2005, on all of this beach line, not just Daytona Beach. That was the conversation then, recommending 50-year plan of buying property because of beach erosion and or environmental concerns that people might not always be able to park on the beach. Actually, that visual, physical, and psychological access policy came from that study. It's been developed as a performance-based design guideline. So yeah, I don't have a good answer.

I just wanted to see if that equation was figured in here at all.

Yeah. I think as much, for example, if a property were to come available creating TIF funds or other funds that might be able to continue to support access to the beach, those would be smart things to be doing. Because I'm helping you guys invest all of my unfunded suggestions. I'm sorry. this was just another overlay to give scale and actually some of the little green zones are where we're thinking like well that'd be cool if we could get you know and again those are shown like you know to scale that's probably like 30 feet wide we're not trying to take anybody's property or anything like that but if they're just diagram of like hey it'd be cool to get people through there because there are some walkways that go through some of them i just couldn't remember where they all were and so you know that's the intent with them we were actually trying to map where green space and how we could bring the ocean to the people rather than people getting to the ocean this is your north town center so aldi is at the kind of bottom middle of the screen there perry's is then to the right you know what's interesting and this is it to me just as you drive along the beach i feel more disconnected at the beach between there and Perry's than I do with the condo towers, which are perceivably larger, but there's more gaps between them. And I bring that up because I've said visual, physical, and psychological access to the beach. And you're like, what does that mean? Well, I feel more psychologically disconnected from the beach at Perry's. And it's a lower scale building, but broader and very impermeable. than I do when I'm over here in the government center looking across, because I see skyline, and sometimes I see a little bit of the horizon at the right height and elevation. I can even see, you know, the ocean, but you don't get that there. So just kind of put that in context, what I mean by visual, physical, psychological access. So with this guy, You know, they don't have much parking either. And I do think with the Aldi, there could be some opportunity for very small scale micro retail. And these are like 25 foot wide, small buildings. They're really good for, think about the little ice cream shop at the base of Dunlon Bridge. That's a tiny building. We don't build those anymore because everybody says they don't work. They do work. I promise. They do. And what's happening now in our mixed-use retail developments, we're programming those and putting them in there because they do work. They're great for startup businesses that don't want to lease a 5,000-square-foot full-service restaurant. I only need a couple hundred square foot. They're really good for the community, and they would create scale along A1A. Those blocks, as you move north, could be viable as rear-loaded parking, for example. So you can imagine like old downtowns back in the day would work in like buildings no wider than 50 foot. That's about what those are. Like one of those little rectangles is about 50 foot. And then on occasion, if I have parking in the back, I give a little breezeway coming through in a retail courtyard so people can get from the back parking out to the street, for example. Now that's a different development pattern than we've seen on a1a in many years so it's downtown you know b street that's what happened in most cities park avenue small older cities those were the types of lots um you know you're probably a 150 to 200 foot deep lot then you can do something like that you can do it a little bit less but you know that gives you a range so those for example are good examples where you don't really need There's not enough space in front of the Aldi to do a mixed use development that takes that parking lot, turns it into something big. It's a little too skinny. And then those blocks up above, you could do something a larger scale there, but most of this would work in 25, 35 foot of height. So there's really no need to be a 65 foot, 85 foot height here. In fact, maybe that's more designated for the government center as a larger mixed use district. Now, what does happen here is the beach approach. And around your beach approach is as much as you can to incentivize mixed use. Because you've got people coming and going. And it's nice when you go to some of the hotel, restaurants, and things that are in the middle of the block, not on an approach. But I go to Beach Bucket. I used to play music there quite a bit. And so I like that. You're right on the beach approach, you can go to the beach bucket, you can get there, people park at the approach. It's a good example when you have a mixed use off of approach, it's just easy to get to. And everybody goes, I can't think of a seafood restaurant that's there on the corner too, but you know what I mean. So when I say mixed use, it doesn't have to be like a 20-story building. Just that mix of use there at those beach approaches would be helpful. So yeah, and then also there's existing Mets Lounge. That place shouldn't be going anyplace. That's a local icon. Occasionally on good Wednesdays, they put out, if you're really lucky, Stag Junior or some other really good bourbons. So if you like bourbons, it's a little hidden jewel for your local liquor store. Don't ask me how I know. So modest scale I think could work nicely there, and that starts to create a zone and a district And likewise, views and access to the beach is where you can. If you get northward of Perry's, I think it's possible. This moves to your most northern gateway. And it really is just a segue to where we were. The most southern portion of this map is the little putt-putt golf spot there. That's really on the other one here. It kind of falls off the map. Putt-putt golf. is right there. So you'll see the putt-butt golf of the northern portion there, and when I go here, that putt-butt golf is at the southern portion. So these are really an extension of one another. Now there's some large land here, but some of those You know, what I've heard is going to happen for the development where the big piece of property, so when I go back here, that big piece of property on coastal development there, I can't think of the name of it, that one there, you know, they might use the property across the street for parking. If they just do parking lot, is there a way to get them to do something along the street edge to activate it so it's not just parking lot? If they need structured parking, then there's the way to activate that with, you know, something in the space of the structured parking they call retail liners, just so there's something in there. And they'll push back because they'll say, hey, who's going to be here anyway?

So Commissioner is saying, so again, so we get in perspective. So are you talking about the old Treasure Island property? Yes. Okay. All right. Great. Thank you.

So as that develops, you know, so now you imagine some big – hotel comes in, they redevelop, then across the street, this other little squiggly line that's across the street, that's a parking deck with a retail liner at the base of it. So our friends doing all the arrow, the cursor rework there, yep. So that's what we're talking about. As you move northward, those sites up there, the old pick and save and all that, those are pretty big sites and they could be developed into mixed use if you want. I just don't think it's going to happen right away. you know, sorry for showing you something that's probably not going to happen, but I think what is more likely that happens is some of the embrace the funk. So the buildings that are there, those little red squares are us kind of saying, hey, you know, those are pretty cool, fun and funky buildings. Maybe the big Treasure Island redevelopment comes in. They do need to build a parking deck across the street. They could put some retail at the base of it. But as you go up the block, saving, renovating and updating and upgrading all of those little tiny mom and pops, with something cool, fun, and funky. And that's very possible. I think for the Pickens A building, it'd be perfect for a food hall. It's already got some of the kitchen facilities and things like that in it. It's a decent enough size. And the thing for you guys, it's both a blessing and your challenge. Your rent rates for a retail space are like $15 a square foot. That doesn't exist any place in the world other than apparently Daytona Beach Shores.

Daytona.

it in perspective our retail rates on park avenue 85 a square foot triple net you still got to pay for all your maintenance and other stuff and so i haven't been around that long mike fowler so pick and save is now the um where the mission church mission correct it's been that's pick and save underused or lightly used for probably the last 15 years but that they own it um factory

I like churches too. Look, I go to Salty, so they're good at activating spaces. Look what Salty's done for Ormond Beach, and they've got a new Salty, the boardroom cafe, so maybe they can find something to do, and it doesn't have to be a food hall. I will tell you what many churches are doing, they're finding a lot more places to meet people where they are, and so a cafe is a lot easier to meet people than sometimes a church.

Is it actually a church, or is it a...

headquarters for my understanding its headquarters that they do shipping out of shipping out of they ship Bibles okay so you know that is something that it could be I think this is a very adaptive reuse play and I'm personally torn because I know what you're like well look I've only got so many incentives. If I had an abundance of money, I'm going to pour it here, I'm going to pour it in the Dunlaughton. So which happens first? Which one's more important? That one's a little bit more difficult to answer. So I think that's an... we're concerned as a group to give you that recommendation. If it was so overwhelmingly clear, my gut is, is you invest in Lawton and then your government center, because you're going to see the most, you know, returning, most likely Dun Lawton, because if I help incentivize those businesses, where are people going? I can tell you when I come to town, and y'all said this from different ways, if y'all said, well, we go down to Rose Villa and then, you know, sometimes we go down to, um, hidden treasure down at Ponce Inlet or whatever, and then going to the deck down under. Or in your case, you're like, well, I find the food that I like sometimes to drive to New Smyrna. Well, people in New Smyrna are also like, well, hey, sometimes, and I'm driving from Flagler Beach, I'm meeting my buddies at Hulu's. So I'm not meeting them up here in North Gateway, not currently. So the current pattern of use right now is mostly on Dunlop, the base of the bridge. That says to me, I would probably keep it a little bit closer. But I think deeper study, less anecdotal study, and I'm kind of giving you guys now, is warranted there. They're all important. I get that. So other questions about this and things that I haven't said. This one does have pretty good depth behind it too. So you do have the building. ability for especially the pick and save property and all that i call it pick and save because that's what it was when we were kids max is right across the street from that is that correct or catty corner from it yeah yeah okay so you know those those are very developable large scale lots so i mean you know as much you could do larger development there i just feel like what's more likely to happen you could back load those properties with parking and then, you know, right now pick and save is right on the street anyway. So it's already an example. If I go back to, you know, it's, you know, you park behind it. That's a good example where the building back in that time, they pushed it to the street and then they parked behind it. So that same kind of pattern could happen on the lot just to itself. So that's pretty much, we got some like, wrap-up points that we're going to make, but we've made it through all of the districts, if you will. What do you guys think? Any questions?

A lot to absorb.

Yeah, it is. I have a couple questions. So assuming that we have incentives to offer, we'll call it a developer, whether it's a small developer or a big developer, how do we as a city tell these people, from anywhere in the country that this is available, that we have a sort of a vision, and we would like you to come in and give us a proposal. How do you advertise this?

In terms of the P3 development opportunity, there's multiple layers. So for property that's available, just trying to help promote your local folks, that's one layer. Are you asking that question or more on the P3 component like, hey? Most of these properties that you're talking about

As far as I know, they're not for sale. Anything's for sale if the price is right. But that's what I'm wondering. How would I convince a developer to go to the owners of Pick and Save, we still call it Pick and Save because I do, go over there and say, hey, listen, you've been there a long time. We'd love to buy your building, develop it. How would anybody even think of doing that?

Yeah, I mean, that is a good point. I mean, it happens organically. I think it's through your broker network. I mean, your broker and developer network of folks. I mean, the other piece that you typically are doing, because it's not your property, it's not like you can solicit for bids. It's bringing those owners to the table, and it's bringing them into the fold of what you're trying to do and help curate that they're a willing participant. If you sense that they are, then you're like, that would be one of the tests that I think y'all should do, because I know you're already doing some of this. you're like well now such and such owns his property and that just chains hands and i think they're eager but they're not so i know y'all are yeah

Okay. You state your name and your purpose, Larry. Yes, Larry Lalo, Economic Development Manager Director, CMA Director of Merritt Island. So we've been doing economic development for about 30 years and community development. So that's a good question. There's a few ways that it's approached by most communities that are actively engaged in bringing in companies to their cities. So if it's a small site, first of all, you need to have a good website that's marketing these properties, whether you own them or not. Second of all, if you have an entity in place, whether it's a community development corporation or one of those other things, or even the city can, So that's a little, a few more snoogles and doodles. You can take options on property, just hope, you know, there's money in it for that, the whole property, but three rules that site control, or real estate dollar, site control, site control, site control. So you take options, let's just say X property, and you feel it, you want to target for greater jobs. You create a package of all your demographics, the images, the direction the city's headed. You can send it out direct. You can set up a meeting with them. We have these shows in Orlando, ICSC, where communities, they'll take the top three sites, And they'll take the, you know, they call it the road show. This is the site. This is what it costs. This is what we're willing to do. This is what we can incentivize. We want you to come to our community. If it's privately owned, here's the price. And it's for sale. It's not, you have the option. Even under our site control, you want to come here and do this. Let's meet some more. So those are the few things. If it's a larger project, you can go out to the major real estate developers in the same kind of a way. You have the target, don't waste your time. And it takes a little bit of time, but you have to go prepare it. As the city manager said, you've got to be willing to kind of work towards a yes if it's what you want. So that's what you've got going for you more than anything else.

Commissioner, I can tell you that as part of our Team Volusia membership, Director Maddox will be attending the ICSC conference in Orlando. She and Maddie have been working on marketing various properties and how we'll be able to do that as the city, even though we don't hold the properties. So that's something that we're actively working on. Maddie's also been talking with Sharon, who does marketing. Just having that many subject matter experts in the room has been very beneficial to us.

Thank you.

I'll say one.

Oh. My name is Sharon McCormick, and I do economic development marketing strategy. And echoing everything that Larry said, one thing that I found really important in all these years of doing it, we created what we called investment tourism. And it's a strategy where we have found that through surveys, survey data, that over 50% of all site selectors find the next location in travel, whether it's business or personal. So when you think about that, everything else that you're doing, if you have strategic messages here in your city when people are traveling and in the locations where they travel, in the airport, you have those strategic locations that are opportunities to invest here, that works too. I can't tell you how many tours I've given in cities that I've worked in because we implemented that strategy locally. And I go to ICSE all the time. Thank you.

Number one, you've got to make sure whoever's handling this for the city, they've got to make good relationships with those commercial brokerage real estate agents. They're the ones that are in the know. They're the ones that are going to mediate, go between, and you can work together on everything, but also they're going to want to be part of that circuit like a machine.

City Manager?

Yeah, I wanted to add, Larry had mentioned that you have to have something on your website that refers to that. And as part of our contract coming up in October, we'll be able to begin our website refresh. And that is one of the things that Director Maddox and Maddie have identified that they want to be one of the elements of our website.

Thank you.

Very cool. Thank you, guys. Good support. Any other thoughts or questions? So we have a handful of conclusions. I want to circle back. This is still a draft, which you guys are seeing as a result of a three-day charrette. So one of my last correspondences, or actually first correspondence was at 4.30 this morning, kind of sending some updates, and the last one was sometime last night. So pardon us for some of the error of the missions, looseness of our presentation, and even the length of it, because it's like if you gave me more time, I'd give you a shorter story. So this will get better, I hope. I'm sure it will. So conclusions and next steps. So one year to two years. The first thing, and I said this earlier, if you can get out your group now and start curating events, space, and place for people, that's the first thing that you could do. That costs you very little. It's an immediate investment that you can do. And also I think some of what Larry and Sharon were just talking about in terms of you guys are already doing this, co-promoting your properties, bring in your brokers and your realtors and folks like that, and sort of circle the wagons, collector generals, as my uncle would say. So getting festivals, getting the things, the food festivals, jazz festivals. I know he came up with the idea. He wanted a jazz festival. And he wasn't saying that for you guys. He was like, I don't want this place to be about me. And I'm putting you on the spot. But I'm saying, you guys live in this city. And so what would you want to do? And we do this, we call it the day in the life. Well, what are the things I do when it's like 8 in the morning on the weekend, 8, 10 o'clock at night? And think of 10 different people, 10 different places you'd like to be, 10 different things you would like to do. We call it hours of 10.

And so that's how you really get into event planning.

And you're ultimately planning for the people that you want to be here. So that would be first and foremost. Identify some of the early redevelopment opportunities, and that's why I was saying it was opportunity. Larry, and you asked that question, because if you find those redevelopment opportunities, if you guys are doing capital improvements that are gonna help support that, you're defining your budgets, people look at that real fine. I mean, I know the one thing we do is we pull capital improvement budgets. Oh, what's the city plan on? Oh, look, they got streetscape incentives, and they're doing this. I'm like, okay. And what I do, I call up my developer buddies, like, hey, developer buddy, they're doing streetscape incentives and they have matching grants and so on and so forth. Like, maybe you should go over there and buy a building because I'm not trying to wait for my clients to come to me and say, hey, Dave, we need you to design a building. I'm trying to bring them to the work. So getting that word out and finding those opportunities, the incentives, the grants, building improvement grants, those opportunities. I think comes sooner. Again, we have one to two years up here. So we call this the lighter, quicker, cheaper. Unfortunately, it's not cheaper to give people money away, but that is one of the things. Special incentive district. We specifically use special incentive district rather than CRA. That's where the Jessicas of the world can help us figure out what we can and can't do. New wayfinding. or I call it new, but layering in, you know, most of the way finding that you have is doing great. How do you layer in new? Parking studies, flexible parking agreements, shared parking, fitness loops. If you have an active and wellness-focused group, is that you could do fitness loops. Those are another, one of the, really kind of goes back to number one, the curation of events. Those are the types of events that people would enjoy. One thing I didn't share, and actually some of our master plans, that I did forget about, is more of a linear park along A1A. Because some of that sort of exists to the south, which guests and residents, visitors do love the sidewalks to the south. It's not that the ones to the north are terrible, it's just the big broad wide sidewalks that people are bringing them and their kids and their strollers and all the stuff they're dragging to the beach. Those sidewalks are nice. Well imagine that more in that sort of you know, active and engaged planting, streetscaping, shade trees, a place for somebody to sit. Those can be wide enough for little pop-up markets and, you know, other like little things along the way where like, well, I'm just grabbing, it's a juice bar, you know what I mean? It's like, hey, it's a great place for a wellness walk because I can also get a whole press juice along the way. So that kind of fits into this fitness loop. Ideal launch trail planning process, and that kind of ties into, broader sort of beach trail if you will we don't have a boardwalk but maybe we can have a beach trip so that's something to think about it would also need to connect the key access points to the beach two to five years p3 for mixed-use if you get a couple of these other projects you get some incentivation going you get some of the renovations going on you get some moment pop-up markets it creates attraction people attract other people People also see that you're serious as a city, as you are, and you invest in it. That's one of the first things that we see developers gauge when they get into P3s, because you know all the cities that put P3s out. And then a lot of them also come out and they say, well, we'll just give you a land lease. That's probably not going to work. I don't want to say no, but I've seen too many deals where cities are like, oh, we don't want to sell the property. And that might be an issue. You might say, well, that's a no-go for us. I do know that's an issue that comes up for P3s. It has to be a really amazing piece of property for a developer to get into a land lease situation. Targeting annexations, that's a very political thing to say, but some of this, I'm not trying to take everybody's property or whatever, but you guys have a spotty issue. You've got some places you're Daytona and some places Volusia and some places it's Daytona Beach Shores, and I know as a person that actively looks for property here, I got to go to the GIS and I'm looking at this and checking that and like and then you're never really sure so I call up Gwen like hey is this one was in because I did find that on a couple of properties and that's not to anybody's fault just like oh yeah that one actually is Daytona Beach Shores or whatever so you know getting some consolidation where it matters future-proofing in that way. Recruit the first movers. And that was really some of your developers. Find those early folks, the community, boutique-minded developers, the little people that are already here investing their money. recruiting them or recruiting their other people that are like-minded to them definitely put that on the first slide it's on the second so great opportunities for future higher densities especially off the beach expand efforts to attract the young families you know I think that's a longer process and we were sharing I moved to Charlotte in 2012 I was recruited there and We lived in a townhome for a year, trying to find our place that we wanted to live. We'd walk the neighborhood with our fifth-born son, and we would see all the retired families that were there that still lived there, and they'd wave and all that. It was such a nice neighborhood. We didn't see any young people. We were like, that's really not for us. I was not really young at the time, but I was younger than them. And we bought in that year and over, it was a 10 year period and slowly some of the retired folks would move to a smaller place and they would then sell their home and there was another, Dave and Christine and their kids that moved in and so on and so forth. So that was 10 years. When I started there, the pool club had me and Christine and a bunch of old folks. And then by the time we left, we had a brand new pool, not us, our pool, but the pool club. It was still a mix at that point, but it was an entire group of new folks. It was a 10 year strategy. And that was just a natural change of things. And I think that's where you guys could be. There's plenty of people like me that grew up, lived in New York and lived in Miami, lived in Hong Kong, lived all over the place. And then I was like, you know, I want to get close to the beach. I'd like to move back to Winter Park. And then I'm slowly moving my way this way. And so... I think that's going to happen. That's why my buddy Adam has a place right down the street here. He's not the only person looking. So that's a slow change, but it'll happen. Hiring a person to host the events. And we did put this on the longer term, because it's something you could start internally. But then getting a dedicated person. And pardon me if you already have that person, and we didn't catch that. And so we're stepping on somebody's toes that's not our intent. Long term, five years, acquiring targeted properties. especially around coastal resiliency, beach access, and ensuring if beach parking were to ever come off the beach that you've got some backup plans. You could get pigeonholed. As much as they're supposed to replace the parking when it's taken off, it might be put on you. And that kind of ties into the other ones, coastal resilience and access near-term, long-term. Florida Forever grants, if you can, how those are still working, but any of those things where you can continue to get some resiliency. And that's it. Sorry for being so long.

Any questions from anyone on the dais? Questions?

I just want to thank the members of the program. I know you're probably eager to get on the road and get home because it's been a long and intense couple of days for you. But having so many talented people here, So many subject matter experts that folks that are our experts, our staff could speak the same language with instead of talking to somebody like me who only understands about half of the terms that they use with me. It's been refreshing. It's been informative. We understand that this is not the final product, that 45 days from now we're going to see a final report that will obviously be made public and shared with the commission. But I just want to thank each of you for taking the time to do this. It's been invaluable to us, and I truly mean that. We've shared staff's contact information with you. We look forward to getting yours because we want to continue these conversations after the tap is over, and we want to really work to cultivate these relationships with each one of you. I know that we're going to continue to reach out to you and use you as a resource. And if there's anything that we can do for you, I want to make that available to you because it's been that valuable to us. So thank you very much.

We thank you. Let's give them a round of applause. or anything else for us?

No, just thank you. And like you said, and in between, if there are other questions, it's not like, hey, we'll see you in 45 days and you get a report. I'm personally dedicated to be here. If you have a one-on-one question or anything like that, just let us know. Thank you very much.

Thanks, Dave.