Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay. We will call the September 14th meeting of the Dolphin County Planning Commission to order. May we have the roll call, please?

Okay. Chris Dietz?

Here.

Josh is absent. Mary Gieske?

Here.

John Kirshner? Here. Gary Lenker? Present. Brian Pomeroy?

Here.

Joe Robinson?

Here.

Lisa Schaefer.

Here.

Robert Spandler.

Here.

And George Hartwig. OK, and Joe just showed up. And then I think we had a couple of guests that were signed in. Did they show up?

Nick is here.

OK, Nick, if you want to kind of identify yourself, just kind of let us know what, you know, just what topic you might be wanting to talk about so we know we have that for the meeting coming up.

Absolutely, Jerry. I'm here in case there are any questions about the proposed amendments to the East Hanover Zoning Ordinance regarding short-term rentals and agritourism.

Okay. All right, Mr. Chairman, we do have a quorum.

yes good afternoon all and uh i am uh serving for our world traveler chairman josh who uh i'm not sure what part of the world he's in but i know he's traveling so uh you all received the not only agenda but the minutes from our august 3rd meeting or is there any additions or corrections to those minutes and if there are none we will take a motion for approval Joe, thank you. Is there a second?

Yeah, Bob Spandler. I'll second that.

All right, Bob. Thank you. Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. And those opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. We'll move right into the Treasurer's report.

There is just normal fees of collecting applications. $5,222.63. And it's just a transfer of those fees received by the Dauphin County Planning Commission to Tri-County and accepting and moving forward.

Thank you, Jerry. Do we have a commission motion to approve that?

So moved, Mary Geiske.

Thank you, Mary. John, thank you for the second. Discussion again, hearing none. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Moving into reports. Reports of the officers. I have none as acting chairman today. Any reports by any of the other officers? Hearing none, we'll move into item B, communications and staff reports.

yeah well yes we did receive one item uh there was a correspondence if you go all the way to the back of the packet uh there was a person named mary ann pruden from referencing past action by the township on its review of South Hanover Township Draft, the center ordinance. It was received on the 10th. So there was information there on that link. There's no action. It's just noted for the record that we received that.

Okay. And what was her name again?

Her name was Mary Ann Pruden, P-R-U-D-E-N.

okay let the record reflect that and thank you for that jerry so we're moving on item c then program progress reports attached in your agenda sure i'll i'll take that thank you andrew uh from a transportation planning perspective uh august we were uh we're updating our

our what we call our upwp that's our united planning and work program so that sets out the next two years of our uh transportation planning work uh funding tasks to be completed all that kind of stuff uh so that's been the the draft has been finalized and sent to all of our transportation uh stakeholders for comment then it'll come back to us hats we're having hats meetings this month um opportunity to comment it'll come back to hats uh in december for final uh approval and then be submitted to pendant to take effect the beginning of next state fiscal year so that's july 1st um we are getting ready for an update to our our cmp which is our congestion management process uh we're finalizing right now in scope with uh consulting engineer, one of the open-end contracts we hold with some data support. As you can imagine, with congestion data, there is an unfathomable amount of data available to us. And frankly, we need engineering support to kind of make sense of it and distill it down into something that we can actually use and figure some stuff out through. So the CMP update staff will be doing the document and everything, but we'll have an engineer, an engineering firm in support for data analysis. Staff right now is working to finish up what's called the human service transportation plan. That's a transportation plan that's primarily focused on the needs of transit and specifically the uh elderly and disabled populations in our region uh that's been going on for the better part of the year um or a better part of a year uh significant outreach they are rebecca and karen on our staff have been doing interviews and and kind of focus group meetings and ride-alongs on transit and paratransit so We're looking at most likely having that presented to HATS in December for adoption. I think with transportation planning, I do want to note there was a pedestrian fatality on Front Street at the intersection with Vaughn Street, the crosswalk where the Greenbelt, where the riverfront portion of the Greenbelt stops and crosses Front Street and comes back into the city. heads up to 6th Street. There's been significant kind of public and press attention on that. We are right now and will be in the next few weeks having a meeting between us, the city, Susquehanna Township, because Vaughan Street is actually the boundary of the city and Susquehanna Township. So Susquehanna Township, the city, us, the Greenbelt, Dolphin County Parks and Rec. I think that's it. and then an engineer that had looked at some traffic needs along that corridor with the intention of identifying some of the short and long-term improvements that can address some of the pedestrian safety issues that have long been identified along that corridor. So I said that's gotten a lot of attention recently, and I just, in case anybody here was kind of aware of that, kind of highlight that we are actively moving forward with some work to address that. From a non-transportation standpoint, the development of the next regional growth management plan continues. I just sat down with Lindsey Greer, our regional planner, and Tanner Stroup, our GIS coordinator to go through there. They're doing a very in-depth lengthy GIS analysis of kind of developable lands to kind of, you know, if you know our current, our current RGMP, it has a layer in there that we call the community service area. This is a more analytical approach to that same concept. So it's actually kind of gonna score the entire region based on, I don't know, they have like 20 factors that they're looking at in terms of kind of community facilities, environmental constraints, all those types of things. If you happen to be on our tri-county regional planning commission board you'll see you'll see kind of a sneak peek of that at the meeting in a few weeks uh lindsay will be there to present it um we're doing some kind of qa qc on that and then we'll move into some more of the kind of growth projection analysis and some outreach with some stakeholders soon so uh that's where we are with the rgmp There's obviously a lot more in here. If anybody else, if you have any questions, let me know. Jerry, if you have anything to highlight that's not going to be touched on further in the agenda, go ahead.

No, not really. I think we're going to talk a little bit about the comprehensive plan at the end, and that's kind of been the main focus of what we've been doing.

That's all for me then.

okay andrew thank you are there any questions for andrew in that regard okay hearing none uh we're now moving into item c correct program progress report uh we just finished that forgive me forgive me so the lpa report is attached any uh any discussion on that yeah

Um, while Andrew gets it here, uh, we did, uh, 22 and a half hours of, uh, generally night meetings. Uh, there were a few, uh, uh, items, uh, if you see again, that's, uh, uh, the, uh, data center tends to be a fair amount of discussion points for a lot of communities.

Any questions from any of the commission members on any of the activity? Okay, hearing none, anything on any committees then?

I want to highlight we did, I guess it was the beginning of August. We had co-hosted a information session with Cumberland County Planning Commission on the Road to Housing Act, specifically targeted at municipalities and kind of what the act says for them what they need to be concerned about that kind of stuff so i just wanted to mention that we did hold that and it was it was fairly well attended um you know especially for uh for a lunchtime uh municipal uh uh webinar those are not it's not always easy to get people to come out to those there were a fair amount on that call and i thought it went really well very informative

not to put you on the spot but what's a fair number just curious how many actually did participate do you have that i don't have it i think it was 20 or 30 though at least yeah do you mind sending that i know there was uh do you mind resending that out to the commission members i think you did right after it was completed you mind resending that uh sure program was that in uh Was it a recording of the meeting or was it just highlights of the visual presentation? It was both.

I'd appreciate it if you'd resend that.

No problem.

Okay, then moving into new business, subdivision land development matters. 17 items you have for us.

Yeah, the... Again, there was a fair amount of activity. As you know, we moved our meeting back a week due to the Labor Day holiday. So that's why you'll see a fair amount of applications that will above and beyond what we normally see. There was one larger application that you may have seen in the newspaper within Swatera Township, which was the The apartment complex for 288 units, that was discussed quite a bit at their meeting. We had a number of comments on that, which was focused a little bit more on the active transportation component of it and whether or not there was a ability to connect to the neighboring trails and recreation facilities. Again, it's a case of there's a fair amount of development patterns or development happening with that plan. We did talk a little bit about trying to make that a much more connectivity, much more recreation component within that plan. There was also some concerns by the township on the parking. uh and they had another a number of uh concerns about open space yes associated with that uh i attended the meeting the uh uh there are the the The engineer is making some changes to it, so we're waiting to see whether or not what that is. At this point, though, our comments are in. We noted all the things, particularly with safety as well. There was concerns about how the fire truck access was going to occur and even along the buildings, whether or not the buildings would be coming out onto right up against walls and things like that. So that was the major one.

If I'd like, Jerry, can I, Mr. Chairman, can I comment on that a little bit too?

Sure, go right ahead, Bob.

I looked over that plan myself because I, you know, did, people are talking about it. Jerry, I see there are like 36 units in buildings. Is there more requirement? I mean, each building only has two handicapped spots. Is that... How do we handle something like that? I see that our comments are very well written on the grade development of fire trucks getting around and bumpers dragging and stuff like that, which is excellent. But we don't address the parking concern. I mean, it's 1.6 spots. in that whole complex for you know for these units and even though the handicap you know being all private or you know private parking you know they're only allowing two handicap spots per building you know these are well yeah yeah what you see right there is uh uh well

When we do our reviews, we do a couple of different ways. One is a real technical review where we try to go into all the details of every single component. If it's a smaller one, we try to catch on a lot of that stuff. If it's a bigger project like this, then we try to stay more higher level type of thing. We did have meetings with the township beforehand in reviewing this because they requested that and it was brought up about the parking. It is a very unique situation because they got a variance and then the township took them to court over that variance and I guess they ended up getting a settlement agreement with the developer based upon adding a few more parking spaces. But we did know that they already had commented on the number of handicapped parking spaces and the locations of it. So if that was, some of the times when you see some of the comments and you don't see what's there, there is a little bit more behind it, but it's good you brought that up because yes, that was a concern that was already brought up by the township. And so we didn't necessarily have a comment on that other than we would just support what the township was saying.

Okay. All righty. Because, yeah, it just seems very inadequate. Like you said, there's no, if they run into a problem on this parking lot, on this complex, there's no room for any growth of parking. You know, like you said, they're border to border right now.

Every project has its nuances and this one, of course, being a bigger one, they do have a open space recreation component requirement. And this doesn't show necessarily the grades of everything that's going on, but a lot of the grading that is occurring on that site, even though it shows a fair amount of open space, some of that open space is the pond and a lot of it is slopes. What we had a concern with is you're going to have 288 units. A lot of them are two-bedroom, three-bedroom. That means families are going to be in this. All the walking paths and everything else that are associated with it are really functionally built to get people from the parking lot into the buildings rather than getting them around. That was our concern. Now they're you know, eight, 288 units and traffic. And there's a, there is a bus pad that's going to be there, but really would the bus come in? I guess I've been having meetings with the, uh, the, uh, with the, the, uh, the bus company, um, rabbit rabbit transit. Sorry. And, uh, you know, I guess they're comfortable with how they've show it, but functionality wise, it's not, but yes. So there is a lot going on with this, uh, whether people need that parking because they're going to be taking the bus. We don't know. I think whenever it's all flushes out, but, but again, but. they're going to be giving more plans back. We won't, like I said, get comments on it. But we we will be monitoring what they what they submit.

Okay, thank you. And you are indicating that the developer and the municipality have had a settlement agreement on any litigation. So we're, you know, probably not privy to all those details either, Bob, and then resolving that correct.

uh we did not see it in the northerly you know we don't necessarily get involved in that stuff because my point exactly those are things that are resolved uh right outside of our realm so okay and regarding the the handicap spaces that that's typically something contained within their uh their zoning ordinance so that that i i'm assuming would likely fall under the same I don't know specifically how their variance was worded or requested, but that's typically in the same section of the zoning ordinance, all street parking requirements.

Right. As we all know, there's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. They may be, in any kind of development, they might be meeting the letter of the law, but are they really meeting the spirit of the law? So that's something that the them and the township will be working out.

OK, thank you. The Halifax Township, the Fumo Farm, what's happening there? I didn't get to see that in great detail.

It's 85.

They're subdividing that? Yeah, I can't remember being too much, Gary.

Okay. Yeah, there's some moving of lot lines around. I'm trying to think what...

They're not creating new housing, in other words.

No, no. I think there's one new lot and it's the existing lot and there were some concerns about access we had and easements and things like that. But no, it's not a development. It's more of a... Okay. Thank you.

Thank you for that. Any other questions that anybody else has?

And any of the other... Mr. Chairman, this is John. I had a question for Andrew or Jerry. If they knew much about the one in Derry Township, the enclave at Silverbrook. It just struck me odd, the land use there with what's surrounding it. That's apartments as well, right along the creek. But it's all existing single-family residential around it. So I didn't know if anybody had a backstory behind that one.

i think and and we can certainly you know diane did the uh the review of this but i think this is largely a result of the hershey west end project removing all of its multi-family housing provisions or accommodations and and now uh kind of this has now been submitted to basically fill that same need I think there was significant reaction at the meeting for this.

But this isn't near Hershey West, is it?

I believe it's along Middletown Road, I thought. So it's not like right next to it, but it's... Hold on, I'm sorry. I'm struggling here. I guess this is back here. I'm sorry, I was thinking of a different one. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not sure John. I don't have. I don't have much backstory on this.

Okay, that's fine. like I said it was just uh an anomaly that you had that high high density zoning right next to those existing you know smaller residential areas but that's okay and any other questions or comments by any commission members

Hearing none, do we have a motion to approve with staff comments as presented? I'll make a motion to approve. Okay, thank you, Brian. Is there a second to that? Second, Chris. Chris, thank you. Discussion on the motion. Hearing none, all those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. Moving on to zoning amendments.

Mr. Chairman, since we have one person for the East Hanover one, do you want to move that one up for the first discussion?

Yes, that is fine. Please do that.

Okay, Mr. Yinks, I don't know if you want to say anything or mention anything on this.

You know, if you all want me to give you a summary, I can do that. But I think that the zoning amendments are pretty straightforward. I do appreciate staff's review of this and you taking the time to weigh in on this with the review letter. I see that the recommendation is approval with some comments. So I guess I'll just start by saying, do you have any questions for me that I could be helpful on?

Any questions? Any commission members for Mr. Yankst?

No, I think as mentioned from a staff standpoint, there is the change. The number of municipalities have been doing short-term rental and agritourism as kind of this has been an ongoing trend for probably the last five or so years, particularly as we see it around the Hershey area as the resort end of things or the Hershey attractions kind of end up doing things, kind of spurring a lot of growth. The one thing that we do, there was a mention of the one comment or with comments. The only thing we have is in that second paragraph on the page right in front of you. was the question of how it's identified for the short-term rental for its use for only allowed in lodging or sleeping purposes uh you know that is not typically what we see in the type of things we normally see uh not as much concern about what they're doing but how loudly they're doing it and what they're parking and things like that so We are only pointing that out that that might be sort of restrictive and also may end up being a administrative nightmare trying to, somebody else may be doing something that's not quite on the list there that may end up being a certain problem in regulating it. That was our only really comment. Otherwise, we're supportive of the action and everybody trying to make sure that they're keeping their community a good place for all uses, including single-family residential and being a quiet neighborhood.

I think that's a valid concern question you raised. So I'm just curious, Mr. Yanks, what's your reaction to that? Because we don't want it to become a case where, again, it's not that they're disruptive. I mean, it's disruptive, yes, but just the fact that they're holding that particular event there, we don't want to write some kind of rule that limits, prohibits that, do we?

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think that's a good comment. And I mean, we will definitely take a closer look at that. I mean, I think we've had these regulations these types of regulations on our books for a while. And what we're trying to do is having tried to, you know, enforce them for the better part of five, six, maybe seven years by now, you just learn some things over the years. And the intent of the ordinance is to kind of put some of those things that we've learned into practice. So we think that it's pretty practical, but we always appreciate your input and we'll definitely take a close look at those suggestions. Thanks for those.

thank you anything else are we acting on these separately yeah that'd probably be a simple thing to do i mean so if there's any questions we can raise them if there are no other questions do we have a motion to approve the east hanover township short-term rentals and agri-tourism with staff recommendations as noted first term so moved thank you john do you have a second yeah bob spindler i'll second that okay thank you bob any discussion on the motion hearing none all those in favor please say aye aye any opposed motion carries thank you and thank you mr yanks for joining us thank you so much for your time take care you're welcome to stay if you like i'll i'll leave you do your business thank you okay thank you

back to the top of the list then lowers for terror township 800 south eisenhower boulevard industrial to commercial highway uh yes i think there was a some somebody signed up initially i don't think they came on to talk about this one uh chris narr signed up initially from mcneese wallace but maybe not on okay nobody's won nobody's on This is a lot within the township. It's a single lot, but it's a fairly good-sized one. It's on the eastern side of South Eisenhower Boulevard. They want to change the zoning district from industrial to commercial highway. It's 3.56 acres. They had originally looked at this zoning back about three or four years ago well no a year ago and they basically decided not to move forward at that point but they're moving forward now because a potential entity is looking to develop this it is industrial right now and they're looking at moving it to a commercial entity then there's a potential use if they get that way. It's commercial on three sides. On the right-hand side, it is industrial, so it is kind of combining itself to being a commercial district. It is kind of separated by Eisenhower Boulevard and 283, so it's kind of it's more connected to the commercial entities than it is to the industrial. So we're recommending that we support their rezoning of this application. It's popular.

Okay, any questions by any commission members? Hearing none, do we have a motion to approve with staff comments as made or listed?

motion deets thank you second mary geisky second mary thank you any discussion on the motion do we have any idea what what they're planning to do there develop there well i i think right now this is uh they're showing you conceptual uh and it looks like a little mini strip mall are you able to see my screen totally sure i'm still sharing i can see it okay everybody oh everybody else good yeah yep and this is in their application packet this does not necessarily mean that it's going to be what they're going to do but uh a lot this is kind of setting the groundwork but it could be anything that's approved in the commercial district

Okay, any, any other questions? If not back to the motion? All those in favor say aye.

Aye. Aye.

Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. Susquehanna Township, Linglestown Road overlay revised. Interesting to hear this.

Do you want to do that one first? Or do you want to do the Upper Paxton one?

Oh, I'm sorry. Forgive me. I took my glasses off and I can't see that far in front of me. Upper Paxton Township.

Forgive me. Yes, this is a data center ordinance. They pretty much took our model and revised it to their situation. We did not have any issue with it. They did not step out from the boundaries of what we typically provide or see. We think it's fairly reasonable for a community their size.

just curious do they have uh other are they uh just acting prudently to get something on the books or have they had interest in that I'm just curious if there's been expressed interest uh from what I understand they're active they're being proactive okay all righty any any questions any commission members have if not we'll take a motion to approve with the staff recommendations

Lisa, salute.

Okay, thank you, Lisa. Who was the second? Second, Chris. Okay, Chris, thank you. Any discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed? Motion carries. Now we're ready for Susquehanna Township. Yes, we're ready for Susquehanna.

This again is another item that... that we've already looked at. This is rezoning an overlay district along Linglestown Road. It's 21 continuous parcels. They're currently located in the R1 low density and the low Linglestown Road overlay district would maintain the R1 district but additional commercial office, public utility, and institutional and recreational uses. This would actually add another component of the planned commercial center. It also allows for some sort of non-residential establishments in this area. There are certain design criteria and streetscape things that go along with it. We reviewed this back In May of this year, we indicated that we felt that there should be some more pedestrian and bike infrastructure added on and also some continuation of reviewing some of the standards. And they took our comments to heart and they did it again. did what we asked or not last but they follow some of the recommendations and they're resubmitting it as it's a revised uh we're in favor of it as since they they seem to have followed a number of our criteria and what we've asked and just generally I didn't look at those addresses closely what what general area on linglestown road is that from two or from the from do you have an ID on that Woodward

sure what road that is if that's progress i think that's that's crooked hell yeah that's the one that goes up towards mountainville okay it looks like it's between uh uh mount you know the entrance to mountain dale and up up to the it's the 15 to 1900 block yeah yeah very good thank you for for clarifying hospice home is that slain crocs and you know in that area there say that again bob i didn't hear that across from like uh you know where mcnaughton's office buildings are yeah across the street from that is where it is okay very good any other questions or comments

Do we have a motion?

Oh, sorry popped in 1. Go ahead. That's okay. In 2 things actually 1 is, and then it's just a general comment made up for the ordinance, but for the development plan is. With the ingress and egress along that road, I know they have in the zoning ordinance, they want connectivity among the parcels. But I can tell you, having tried to get in and out of Winglestown Road between Crooked Hill and the Giant Light in the businesses there, even making the right turn can be really tricky when traffic backs up with those lights. It's just something they need to be mindful of is how many ingress and egress points they have in that development.

And I think that's the point of this. I think their ordinance is not necessarily as strong in terms of trying to support multi-driveways for individual cross-seasments. And I think that's part of the point of that. I think even in their earlier ones, they were looking at putting even slip roads in if that was feasible.

They do have a portion here now, this one. doesn't always guarantee great access management accommodations, but they do address it in that ordinance.

And I did see that and I figured that was the intent was to try and manage some of those entryway points. My other question on page three, I just happened to notice on their minimum required parking, I'm assuming they mean one space for each 500 square feet of floor area.

i'm sure that's what it is yes okay not 500 storefront yeah we'll point that out for them good points thank you lisa any any other questions or comments hearing none then do we have a motion to approve the staff recommendations and the clarification that was uh just discussed here Okay, thank you, Joe. Any do we have a 2nd.

I'll 2nd that.

Okay, thank you. That was Mary, right?

Correct. Sorry.

Yeah, thank you. All those in favor say, aye, aye, aye. Any opposed. Okay, motion carries. Thank you. Subdivision land development amendments.

uh yes uh gratsborough has uh uh has come around to uh update their uh the subdivision ordinance from their 1975 and uh in essence you know they they just in time for them and so uh they they've done some things uh you know with the uh over time period over years but the last major one was in 2019 so they're really just kind of going in and cleaning a lot of things up making things modernized and we did not see anything that was a concern or are outstandingly glaring of an issue so just a question with all the

the road to housing and Governor Shapiro's housing plan. What, just as an example, I mean, have they lessened any density for single, more multifamily housing? Not that there's a lot in Gratsboro, but I'm just curious, have they done anything to broaden the horizon or is it status quo or more?

I think everything that they did was pretty much take what they had and modernize it to, I don't think they made many dimensional changes. They made mostly definitional changes, things that were kind of out of date, add more definitions that were more topical, things like that. I don't think they went in and did wholesale yard requirements and things like that. I don't think they thought that far in deep into it.

Just curious with all the conversations about the housing that are going on today. nationally and statewide so any any other questions or comments by any commission members hearing none do we have a motion to approve with the staff recommendations yeah bob spindler so moved perfect seconds that means you're going to the grads fair this week bob is that why you support me i got an email to that concern but yeah all right we have a motion to properly seconded uh any discussion hearing none all those in favor say aye aye aye any opposed okay motion carries thank you sewer module action lincoln's township uh yeah this is just a uh one lot subdivision it's nothing much just a simple action notify staff comment have a motion to approve motion chris thank you do we have a second so move mary geiske thanks mary all those in favor say aye aye aye any opposed hearing none motion carries intergovernmental reviews yeah if you want to do all these at one fell swoop you can i'm happy to do that if uh my fellow commission members are fine with that whatever whatever the group should uh approve uh would like to have happen take him in mask folks yep yep okay go right ahead okay um these are all uh

applications that are pretty much going towards the gaming grant. They changed some of the requirements in terms of making an actual amount of points within the criteria to do compliance or consistency with the comprehensive plan. These are all along those lines to be part of that review. The first three are from Dauphin County Emergency Management, in essence. The first one is a first responder active threat bags. They're looking to 425 standardized active threat response bags for law enforcement, fire, and EMS vehicles. They contain trauma care equipment used to treat life threatening injuries through active threat incidents. mass casualty events and trauma emergencies. They're looking for $170,000 from the gaming rent. The second one is the self-contained breathing apparatus replacement project. Again, these are replacement SCBA units, air cylinders and such as part of the dates that they're getting old. They're asking for $20,000 for that. The last one for them is actually from the Dauphin County Hazardous Materials Response Team. It's through, again, equipment. This is more of just a general equipment replacement. They're looking for $400,000, but they're also going through the Commonwealth Finance Agency for the Race Force Development Gaming Act. Uh, the next one is Susquehanna township is funding for the. Existing basketball court at Edgemont community park located on locust lane. Uh, they're looking at doing, uh, kind of two basketball courts that are unsafe and looking to, uh, to improve them and replace them. They're looking at a hundred thousand dollars request. The next one is also in Susquehanna. This is for a plum alley park redevelopment. The small park is looking to, it needs a lot more improvements. It's been in need of a local TLC. They want to put a taut lot playground, traffic gardens. where they can practice bicycle ride and bicycle safety, some pavilion and restrooms, basketball courts, walking paths, and such as part of their overall park improvements. And they're looking for $100,000 as part of an overall $1 million upgrade to it. And then we get to something lovely, such as a dump truck. The Londonderry Township is looking to replace their dump truck, and they're asking for the maximum amount of money, $150,000, because these things, as anybody who works in the local government knows, they're not cheap. So there's part of their gaming grant application.

And then the final one is our rep program.

We are asking for money for $150,000 in order to keep our... our program together in terms of a volume reduction management strategy. We've already completing phase one, and this is to finish phase two, which is a comprehensive BMP inventory for all working BMPs within the participating municipalities. It'll not only just finish the data collection, but it'll also start looking at doing some of the analytics analyzing it to determine where our next katawaga free project so that's again 150 000 we're asking for that so all of the applications we found in compliance uh they uh with the comprehensive plan and uh therefore we're noting that in our letters any questions in any of these individual projects before we take the vote hearing none do we have a motion to approve the

intergovernmental reviews one through seven as listed by Jerry. Mary Mary beat you Joe by the second any, any discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed? Motion carries. Additional items, the Dolphin County Comprehensive Plan update. Anxious to hear this. Thank you.

Yeah, we've been moving forward. As you know, we've been talking about this a number of times. Our plan was approved in 2017. 2027 is our 10-year required update. So we've received gaming grant money and federal or state maps grant from DCED. So we've been doing a lot of the background research work and also doing our outreach. We had a We had planning in-person outreach events at the Wetlands Festival in Wildwood Park. We had one in Strawberry Square. We were also at a Saturday in the Park event in Hershey. We also had a public listening session on the 10th, which was online. And so we also had a meeting on August 12th in with all the municipal planners and planning officials and government officials that take a lot of interest and activity with the plan, use of the plan. We also had our public poll, which we did earlier on and we got over 200 plus responses. And so we're kind of pulling that all together. Now this is part of our grant said we would do 12 public outreach events and this we're going to be doing another three more coming up. Funny you mentioned the Gratz Fair. I will be taking part of my first Gratz Fair on Thursday, providing public outreach and getting whatever comments I can from those fine folks who want to provide us their information on Thursday. We also have established a steering committee. We have approximately 25 people through representing different things through the community, the environment, and economic. A lot of them have been participating in the project in the past. Moving forward, they're moving to helping out. Penn State Health, we've got Site Bike South, Susquehanna. We got Leah from the Housing Authority, Aging on 80, Agency on Aging, Penn State Harrisburg, Tri-County Community Action, Manitou, Conservation District, Parks, Visit, Hershey, Credic, DCED, Builders Association, and the realtors. Again, we've got what we think is a wide cross-section of 25 to 30 people who are going to be meeting with us on the 25th. 4th at the East Shore Library at 10 a.m. Of course, being Planning Commission members, you're certainly welcome to attend if there's interest. We'll get you the information. This is an in-person event. It's not going to be online. We want to have this advisory committee or this steering committee meet in person, at least for initially, and then we'll go from there. We also have one more public listening session. online event that will be on october 1st that's at six o'clock uh people can sign up through our through our web page or whatever and they can come on and we basically uh ask them uh some questions about the perceptions of what we do need to do a little bit better again these are part of our overall outreach we're going to be kind of tying this up in a little bit and then we're going to start working towards uh the construction of the of the plan pulling it together and then with the guidance of both the Planning Commission, the Steering Committee, and that group of committee of planning officials. So we have a lot of feedback and input in this. Once we get a draft put together later on, probably late spring, then we're going to have another round of public input and such. So everybody will get a chance to take a good look at everything that's going on. But right now we're still in the upfront, the data gathering, getting everyone's feelings. I will tell you that affordable housing is a strong one. being the ability to live and purchase homes and such has been quite a bit of a comment that we've already heard, plus as well as the environment and some of the other things we normally hear that is the values of what we've got in Dauphin County moving forward. So again, that's where we stand on the plan update. It's getting a lot of information right now.

And Jerry, you said that that initial steering committee is September the 24th at 10 AM.

At the East shore library. Correct.

Would you, would you be so kind as to send that meeting material out to the commission members? Sure will. And we are able to attend that if you like you indicated. Right. Yeah.

Just, we just let them make sure, let us know that you're going to be able to make, we, we have that large community room and so we've, we've got plenty of room.

any questions on that topic by any for any from any of the commission members okay thank you for that and uh moving into development fee schedule um yeah i don't know if uh one of the things that we've been kind of uh looking now there's nothing nothing on that uh

one of the things that we've been talking as internally as this course it's budget season and moving forward we're trying to uh make sure that we've got uh you know sufficient funds for doing what we do here um it's come to our attention about how we've uh you know we haven't had a an opportunity to review or look at our fee schedule for a fair amount of time The last time we had the fees updated was May 13th of 2009. So working on those numbers, we have some kind of review of our financials of how much it takes to review and everything. And we've been kind of falling a little bit behind the last three years, three out of the last four years. And so Uh, it's, you know, in coordination with what, uh, Perry county is also doing the same thing. So we're not going to be talking about what we're thinking about in terms of, cause we're still kind of mulling over our numbers. We wanted to kind of first see what the general, if there's any concerns or should we even look at this or what the, what your feedback or feelings are as we kind of move forward and possibly talking about this topic.

you wanna know what our feelings are about increasing fees. Is that what you're asking?

Well, Gary, I'll jump in here. And Jerry kind of alluded to it, but so for many years, we were always in good shape on fees and well outperforming. Our review fees were outpacing our expenditures. That's kind of reversed in three of the past four years. I mean, we've been able to cover it through other means and everything, but yeah, three of the past four years, we've spent more on reviews than we took it in fees. So I think what we want is not necessarily any kind of commitment or anything from you guys, but just more general thoughts on like, would you rather us wait and hold the line for as long as possible and review fees and then then we'd be looking at a big revision to those fees or would you rather kind of a constant a more regular updating with those again we haven't touched them in 17 years uh as everybody knows costs certainly have gone up uh you know that certainly includes uh staff costs and and and that kind of stuff so um i think we just want to generally get your thoughts on you know are are we is this something we just shouldn't even be touching or or or what john yeah any input on that john

There we go. Yeah, I mean, we shouldn't be losing money. Obviously, I was looking at the budget this year. It looks like we're pretty much on pace so far this year. But, you know, one of those years we had a bad year, we had that school review up in Millersburg. They didn't have the ordinances, so it was all on us. And that really took a whopping out of the budget.

And that's one of the... we've been talking about in terms of getting deeper into the numbers that if we look, we need to maybe look at a targeted thing such as the approval process, the approval, not so much the process, but what we charge for the county approvals may end up being. That's not just with that one, but with the other ones we've had, they tend to have a larger level of responsibility We don't really charge that much different than what we would look at for one lot subdivision that we're just giving a comment to.

Right. That was my other comment. We should probably have a different fee based on the nature of the review. It's a county approval. That's one fee if it's a county. it's a it's a review based on municipal ordinances that have their own that's one but i feel bad for these people that have lot line adjustments on municipal boundaries and are smitten plans in both townships and paying double fees and things like that so it's time to look at it and maybe just fine-tune it and make sure that we're covering our you know our bases and covering our costs for sure and being fair to the the different type of applicants so i think it warrants review yeah particularly projects

and i and i think also too i mean we've been fortunate in some of the larger ones that have come up we've uh you know had a large uh you know like uh next month we're gonna have a warehouse or a data center and you know that's three thousand dollars straight up right there uh yeah just click on either one they have them both there so it's it's uh You know, we've been fortunate in some cases that we've been kind of the larger ones have been covering some of the smaller ones. But like you said, John, we recognize the ones that. There is sort of a minimum level of what we need to do for even the smallest ones, but for the big ones that like we're just with the two hundred and eighty eight units, that takes a lot more energy and analysis uh from uh from a regional standpoint than it would be for just that other one we saw in halifax which was just carving moving a lot line around right other commission member input on that yeah

uh so what you're saying is if we look at it once you know and and submit it and you know we give our uh our staff comments and all that but maybe there should be something if it comes back two or three times correct is that well we lost them anymore but we've reviewed something three times let's say correct yeah i think we really only look at the plans once for a review of not our own ordinances

but of course when we're looking at it uh for an approval like such as the bank up in millersburg or the school or or any of those ones we make our comments then they come back we're just like the municipality at that point a lot of times they get sets back and forth and back and forth and that's just making sure we know which one is current and keeping the data tracked and there's more people involved than just the normal every day, you know, review with a planner making their comments and sending them off. Once like this, like the SWATERA plan that we just talked about, our responsibility for making a review is over already. So we wouldn't necessarily get involved at all anymore. We're just there kind of listening in. So we would not be giving formal comments at that point.

And if you if you look, you know, the The difference between, so this is for the county approvals, it's 220 plus $4 per lot. For just a comment, it's 175. So you're basically talking about 50-ish dollars, which is maybe an hour. Maybe. An hour for our lower level staff, getting up closer to a half hour for some of our more senior staff. So there's certainly a lot more time that's spent there's a bigger differential than than that between those two so and then just you know john you were kind of mentioning looking at how we're structured so you know i don't think we're talking necessarily about increasing every number here but you know if we the three thousand dollar you know we're starting to get some pretty big developments come in that bump up against that three thousand dollar maximum that could go up and probably not be uh really impactful on their ultimate bottom line certainly not as much as as uh or just moving a lot line that now has to pay 400 to do that if they're you know if they're across municipalities or something so we're increasing the the per dwelling unit or per lot number you know we have we have lots of options and we could even kind of invent a new tier here too and that if we want to you know if there's a specific kind of type or or size of development that

it seems to be the issue or or that we're more comfortable uh targeting for these increases then we can do that as well yeah and even like that as andrew just mentioned i mean the combined subdivision of land development we're seeing a lot more mixed use properties being developed so we don't know which one we should charge them off of And we tend to kind of find the one that seems most reasonable because if it's a commercial entity plus a apartment complex on the top, which one do we do? It's a residential or is it non-residential? Which one do you kind of go for? So typically they're about the same, but there's almost two different reviews that are involved in there because of what's happening. So we might even have a new category for that that's kind of... since 2009.

Yeah, I think that there's a prime example. I think that should be its own category mixed use. You're saying you've never dealt with it that way before, correct?

Correct.

Yeah, I think that should be its own category, because you're seeing a lot more of that being promoted. Especially, you know,

A lot of it, yeah, in the city especially. And, you know, even like in the suburbs long ago.

Right, with some of this overlay stuff and all that's coming down the pike.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and as we're trying to promote the more housing type of thing, if it pencils out that you have to have a commercial on the bottom, we don't want to hurt that, make it easier from a process standpoint.

Good area to look at.

Okay. Do you know what your staff costs are whenever, have you ever done a analysis of that? Because that's probably where you're working right now.

In fact, I had it here too. I don't know where I'm in amongst all the papers here. We, we have a breakdown of almost every, everything in terms of it comes out to an average about three hours per plan.

Okay.

but, but yeah, it varies a lot because you can, you know, sometimes there've been plans that come in and look relatively simple that all of a sudden, if there's an issue and now we need to figure out where there's a discrepancy or something like that, all of a sudden, a lot of, you know, it, it doesn't take much for, for that amount of money to get eaten up by something relatively trivial on a plan.

So,

Depending on the municipality, different municipalities, I would say we are focused, let's say focusing on different things in our reviews. Some municipalities need a lot of support from us in terms of the details and the really fine tooth comb review. So sometimes those aren't necessarily big developments, but still end up taking quite a bit of staff time.

Yeah, as I kind of mentioned with that Swatera one, it's like, what kind of review do we do? Do we do a technical review or do we do a overall encompassing county kind of, how does this fit into the thing? More of a conceptual review of the planning concepts and such. You know, everybody's a little different and depends on what kind of person or what kind of community that is and what kind of development it is. So it's really hard to try and

but we don't want to be you know we want to be fair for everyone I think you got some positive go ahead I'm sorry no I'm sorry go ahead Gary no I thought it was somebody it was John was somebody gonna speak or okay no I think you got some positive comments uh to take a look at things and in a reasonable fashion any other comments by any commission pardon me i said thanks for the direction that's not yeah yeah any anything else anybody else has anything else for the good of the order our next meeting is monday october the 5th any anything else for the good of the order just thanks gary for stepping in for josh yep you're welcome happy to do that

Just as a clarification, just so everyone knows, I'm going to be putting the stamp on for Josh First's signature for all these letters, so that's recognizing the action.

Well, in closing, the chair is going to take a moment of personal privilege and share with you that surprisingly, I ended up sitting behind Jerry Duke at a Harrisburg Senators game here about a week ago. And you know, Jerry is so straight and rigid and businesslike and all our presentations. I never realized how funny Jerry Duke is. I just have to share that with you. And there was no alcohol involved.

Well, that the Altoona curve. No, it was, it was, uh, it was Harrisburg versus Bowie. Wasn't it?

Oh, it wasn't Bowie. Okay. I forgot.

I went through a couple of my team though.

How to share that with you for whatever it's worth.

It was fun there, Gary. Baseball is one of the things I love.

Yep, likewise. I'll take a motion to adjourn. So moved. Do we have a second?

Please, I'll second.

Okay, thank you. All in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Thank you, and have a good September, and we'll chat in October. Thanks so much.

Have a good evening, everyone.

Take care.