Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Rob Leibowitz, yeah well everyone to the September 8 meeting. Rob Leibowitz, We will have the roll call, which I believe is. Rob Leibowitz, Bob Sandler.

Rob Leibowitz, yeah. Rob Leibowitz, Josh first.

Rob Leibowitz, yeah.

Rob Leibowitz, Gary anchor. Rob Leibowitz, Your turn Morgan. Rob Leibowitz, Christopher dates excuse Mary gay see. Rob Leibowitz, Here john kershner. Rob Leibowitz, Yes, Brian. Rob Leibowitz, here. Dan Robinson, Jr. Dan Robinson. Sir, are we missing anybody?

Okay. We have the minutes from the previous meeting. Uh, do I have a motion to accept those minutes? So move by Gary second by Josh. All in favor say aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

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Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

2nd, Joe Robinson.

Thank you. Joe. All favor say aye.

Aye.

Aye. Any, none reports off. Does any off? I have no report. Does any other off? We have a report. None, none. All right. Will be 1 communications and staff reports.

okay i have a one communication and it's a a letter from the department of transportation it's actually indicated there was a public hearing a public house that was on the uh proposed roadway and stateway improvements to state 203 middletown road between 283 and 322. they're all they're doing some studies on that and the John Potter, In the public hearing was already held, but there'll be more up to date meetings such to provide comments.

John Potter, yeah so I had been I typically does they'll do a public officials meeting first. And then it rolls into the public meeting that night. So. Diane, and I both attended, she's dairy count. She's very talented LPA. So she, she had both attended. You know, this is a, this is a. Yeah, I will correct you a little bit. This is an improvement project moving forward. to address some safety issues along Middletown Road between 283 and 322. Pretty good presentation. I'm trying to pull together some additional, let's call it, but for PennDOT regarding some additional connections and stuff that I think we'd want to see as part of the project in contact with Dairy and Homeless Sound about that. But yeah, I mean, it's going to be a fairly significant project, but it's I don't have. I mean, I mean, it and I mean, right shoulders, no additional capacity. I mean, there's some capacity issues a lot driven by no turn lanes. So the addition terms, you kind of. You kind of will be gaining capacity because the people aren't backed up in the traveling itself. Um. But if they're doing preliminary engineering now, without looking at the project schedule, I guess they're probably in construction in two or three.

Welcome, Commissioner, to the meeting.

yeah that's the uh um i don't andrew uh understaffed reports do you want to mention about our new space sure um yeah so i uh

Just a few, I guess, to go now is for. We're taking over the other half of the office space. If you in our office in strawberry square, we only have the floor. We will get the other half. And the real kind of. They were interested in not deciding the initial space on that. We'll take it. We have plenty of room for a conference room there. So we're not sure if the timing will work out for October's meeting. In terms of moving all the technology and everything, I think the space itself, it's all pretty much framed up there. Last week, but I'm not sure if all the technology will be up and running. So October may still be in this room. Jerry and I were just talking about on the way over. But I would say definitely by November. we'll be back in strong view back in our own office having having meetings so dolphin county i'm looking forward to hacks meetings being being in our in our own office so yeah we forget files so you won't get all worked up yeah i was gonna say jerry you think this is my first meeting

Yeah, because that's the room that we had the little party for Steve. Right? So, I mean, that's a pretty nice sized room.

Yes. It's a very big room. It's about 4. I think the. Conference room will be almost 30 feet in length and it's only 2 thirds of that space. So.

Okay, anything else.

Do you want me to roll into progress report?

Sure, you might as well.

um no in august uh we wrapped up probably the main thing for transportation plans certainly we wrapped up our uh outreach period for our long-range plan update uh that wrapped up on august 15th uh kind of towards the end it opened july 1st it was july 1st to august 15th within that period we did multiple we call them public information sessions so it's basically on a zoom call walking through the plan um taking questions that kind of stuff and then we also had an in-person meeting in strawberry square kind of as is required so you know got a fair amount of comments uh we spent the last few weeks saying going over them that that rtp will be up for uh adoption vote this recommendation on friday and two weeks from friday for the full adoption vote if the hat is coordinated so we're Very excited for that to wrap up.

You said, so there's, there's a public in per se participation to me when you do your meetings.

Well, there's so that the interested party in the hats. So, when we do the public, when we do the RTP development, there's a ton of public, but kind of on the front. We did through our public outreach efforts. We had over 400 people kind of reply to our survey and we've had some of that attendance. Lots of stakeholders. You know, we have focus groups on a variety of different, like freight, mobility, accessibility, and bike ped, environmental. So we do focus groups on that kind of stuff. So there's a ton of kind of different kinds of input. Then at the end, the federal requirements are such that you have to do a public comment period at the end. We do it because we have to, and it is good to have the public get the ability to review the kind of semi-finished product, but the real important part of the important time for the public input is on the front end. Because frankly, when we're doing it on the back end, our ability to change things is somewhat limited, because then we have to go back through the process if we change significant things. So we kind of look at it as a, you know, it's part of the whole process, and that this last part is just kind of that last part. The only other things I'll mention are We do have a, you know, in April, we adopted an active transportation plan for the region, so kind of like a bike-ped plan. This November, we're having an active transportation summit. So the audience, it's going to be primarily geared toward municipalities and kind of getting them the resources and the knowledge they need to either kind of get into or keep going on their own bike-ped plan and their own kind of trail. non-motorized transportation planning in their community. So I'll be presenting somebody from PennDOT, somebody from DCR, and then we're going to have a municipal roundtable. So it's going to be a most of the day event at 400 Park in early November. So looking forward to that. The only other thing I'll mention is we did, well, two other things. We are updating, and I don't know if you guys have ever seen, we have a safety dashboard, we call it. Safety application lets you look through crash data and kind of click on it, and you can dig down in and actually get information on specific crashes. Not too much information, but it can kind of give you, you know, safety is one of those things that often gets, Perception is not always in line with reality. So we like to develop these tools to be able to help us look at what the data is really telling us. We're updating that. We're also updating what we call our asset management web tool. So it gives you a very easy way to bridge that we care about in transportation planning, kind of at a community level. And you can zoom in and work in specific bridges or roadways. And it's just a good tool. The other thing I'll mention is the, this is a mouthful, the coordinated public transit human service transportation plan update is kicking off right now. So that's a, It's kind of a larger plan that looks at, again, human service. So it's primarily focused on disabled and elderly transportation needs and gaps and that kind of thing. It has a lot to do with paratransit, working closely with SRTA and Routed Train Zone. So that'll be something we're working on for the better part of the next year or so. So we're looking at next September to adopt that. So Jerry, do you have any,

Yeah, I would just kind of want to two things and we'll kind of back into them later on whenever we talk about the comprehensive plan. But the first talk a little bit about the staff was working on grant applications for federal or state funds for the update of our Adoptment County comprehensive plan. As you know, that has to be done every 10 years. Our plan was done in 2017. But in order to hit that date, we just can't show up. 2017 to try to get it done. We're anticipating the cost will be about $150,000 per seeking. $75,000 from the states and then hopefully either from a gaining grant from other monies from the county to get the match. So we're again, we're putting together a grant application to that. Kind of backing into that again next year, starting the first part of the year, as Andrew mentioned, the importance of having public input right away at the beginning of the plan rather than at the end when you have your mandated public hearing. So the first six months starting in January is going to be our emphasis on getting that public input. So at that point we'll probably be asking the Planning Commission to take part in some outreach events or at least make you aware of them and that we may end up surveys. However, honestly, the volume of support we're getting in terms of the next 10 years beyond 2027, Then the second thing I mentioned is the REP program, the Water Resource Enhancement Program. There are 11 communities that are involved, mainly on the Swatara Township or Swatara Watershed. We have been working with those 11 municipalities and doing some public outreach type of things, but we're also working on getting, applying for another gaming grant application in order to do a BMP inventory. have indicated that that's important to them they don't all have a good idea of what they have and where they are private public ones so we have an rfp out to do that work and we'll see what kind of costs there's going to be to do that project so we're going to be asking a little bit more money from the county in terms for that project we're also applied for other successful, there is money that is in the funds from the previous one, but there's also, we'll be going back to the municipalities and asking them to participate by giving us the funds to help do that. So we feel we can save the municipalities a lot of money by doing going out on their own. So the goal of REP, of course, is to try and save money, and that's what we're looking to do for these municipalities by having them work together with this database. So there's other things going on with REP, and we can talk about them sometime in more detail, but I just want to highlight those two things, both the common plan and REP.

Thank you, Jerry. Thank you, Andrew, for your The local planning assistance. I don't have those numbers. I'll have them here in a second. There we go. 28 hours. That's, like I said, something I always harp on. That's a lot of time out in the municipalities of Dauphin County when they need it. And it's our staff doing those mostly night meetings and phone calls and all that. So. Again, a lot of hours out and about in Dauphin County.

I will vouch for Jerry. I saw him last Monday night at the Susquehanna Township. There you go. See?

That's not fake. That's real stuff. Is that on there? I think that's on there. It's on there. It was a long meeting. I promise. Okay. um committees there are none at this time uh no committee assignments or anything like that so move right along to new business uh subdivision land development uh

i believe i read it earlier it was 10 plans i guess it's those 10 plans up there tonight yeah there is okay i don't find your if there's anything in particular on there andrew jerry that sticks out um well andrew gets the map up if you can uh there are a few larger uh developments um if you read in the paper there's the redevelopment of the hospital into a There's also, and I think there's numbers, you know, it's around there, but it's 98 units there. The former hospital, that's the, the nurses is now being converted into complexes. The bigger one, Andrew, why don't you go to the one in East Hanover?

There?

Yeah, right there. There is a planned community townhouse development in East Hanover, West Hanover of 298 units, I believe. It's... Moving through the process, site plan review. There it is. 253 units. It's primary in West Ann Arbor, but it's a little both, yeah. Yeah, it still crosses a little bit into, but it is townhouses. There's also a hotel down in Derry Township. that's being proposed as part of a West End development. And I don't think that's the majority of the big ones.

The computer's having trouble.

We're having one kind of problem. Wait until we get back to our online.

That's a big problem, so I apologize for that there. Um, okay. So we have those 10 plans in front of us. If there's no one wants to pick out any particular, we'll take a motion to adopt all 10 plans with the comments from the staff. Thank you, Josh. Do I have a second? I'll second it, Brian. Thank you, Brian. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any nays? Okay. Motion carries. All right zoning amendments. Derry Township. No wait, there are two more. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Williams. Too far here. Subdivision Williams Township.

Yeah, as you know that we have the responsibility for reviewing and approving municipalities or land development subdivision regulations in six municipalities. Pretty much all of them are in northern Dauphin. Whenever that comes in, we are the reviewing body and the other technical projects. So there's two of them here, and I'll speak real quickly on both of them. First, Williams Township one is a very small moving of a lot line. It's a lot add-on plan, so there's not much to involve with that one. However, the Millersburg one is a little bit more complicated. It's a Margaret Polk Foundation. than creating a new lot. There is little things that have to be worked out with because they're going off of a private driveway that they're considering as a road. We have to make sure that that's all according to our ordinances and such. So that's going to be something that's going to be a little bit more complicated to work through with the two communities. Whenever we receive this application and we start accepting We have 90 days. And if we don't do that, then it's deemed approved as submitted. I don't think we're going to have that happen, but in order to start the clock running, the first step is to take the action of indicating that it's accepted and that we're going to start the 90 days. So for both of these applications, we reviewed them. They are complete and there's enough

which Polk Foundation location is that they are they actually have three different sites in Millersburg they have this Center Street Moore Street and North Street I think this is North Street it's further out that's the last thing yeah there's there's uh is it in the yeah it's in the it's in the plan yeah you go all the way up it's that orange dot

or i mean sorry purple yeah whatever magenta yeah i'm just curious which one and then actually there's a portion of it that's in upper packs and township it'll show up on that other

And then they're on another site, that's correct. They're on another site out by the Medical Center. That's what that would be.

Yeah.

There's the... If it's in both the borough and the township, is that what you said?

Yeah. No, there it is. See, if this is the general part of the plan there, you'll see that that top portion of the medical right? And but medical road is technically a driveway. They show the easement, but the question is. Is that a street and is that are you allowed to, you know, if just on its own initially, that would be a landlocked piece and therefore. normally approved so there may be other things that are other waivers that may have to be asked for and things like that but you know but we'll receive these things we're not making judgment at this point just receiving them appreciate you going over that

Jerry Barberio, motion to accept so Jerry would they if it's landlocked like that would they would they be approved before they get those other approvals.

Jerry Barberio, Well, these are already there right. the buildings are already there and the lots and i don't know if andrew can go but uh how they had it developed beforehand it was all you know it was it was okay i mean it was just a drive that way right so whenever they had it prior to that you know uh it was fine because it was all incorporated as part of that other lot what's happening now is they're taking this piece that is not technically connected to a public street because you know whenever you review plans You always have to make sure that there's services, services, not a water source. Right. Access. So. So there might be caveats in there that they allow, you know, based on roadways being a driveway. But sorry, Mary.

I was just going to say if they were if they were not. If they were just making changes on what was existing, would they have to get all those additional approvals?

Well, the real kind of situation is they're creating a brand new lot.

Okay.

Whenever you create a brand new lot, you kind of have to make sure that that lot can have those services moving forward. Because if someone sells it off and there's no right-of-way access at that work or all those facilities, then it comes down to a number of different people who are culpable or responsible and love them being us if we approve it. so okay then that's i guess that's what i was concerned about yeah and that's what that's we have to make sure based upon how they're presenting it and what that road really is and that this just allows us to start the investigation and going into that to find out if it's if a medical road is not a private but are you saying it is it appears to be a private road but they're identifying it as a private bank doesn't say they own it the borough's not sure if they own it so that's why we have them who's plowing it the medical center is plowing now oh okay do we know where the water goes seriously yes okay we have a motion by gary do i have a second to accept both of those

I'll second that. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any nays? Hearing none. Plans are accepted. Next we have the zoning amendments. Derry Township.

Yeah, the township is looking at changing their ordinance for hotels and motels from permitted and conditional use in the Hershey mixed-use overlay district. Part of it is kind of closely related to that development that's already put through. The question is whether or not something that is more a residential district should allow hotels and motels. After consideration of what the ordinance says and such, the borough or the township is feeling possibly not, and therefore they're moving forward this proposed change to not allow that. We've reviewed it, and it seems to be consistent.

Hey, we need a motion for the dairy township staff recommendation to support.

Amendment approves.

Thank you Mary. Do I have a 2nd?

I have a 2nd, and I also have a question. No, it's not real material. I'm just trying to learn a little something here. One of the attachments that we were sent had a, this is what the area looks like with table A versus table B. And I couldn't really see what was the distinction other than the sizes of the boxes. I thought maybe you could just explain. I'm just trying to learn what those forms are for, you know.

Well, I, I think what they try to do in that, uh, their summary, uh, this was put together by their staff. They talk about what the different provisions of that, that, uh, Hershey West End ordinance is, and they kind of highlight where it can be versus where it can be. A lot of times, whenever you look at reviews and ordinances, you want to make sure that you're not, uh, totally excluding it in other locations. And I think from those, that summary chart, they're, they're looking at where else it could possibly be so that they're not

excluding it so that there there is a place for it if they decide they don't want it in this district okay all right well thank you but yes i second that motion thank you joe all in favor say aye aye aye any names hearing none motion carries uh let's see that's the only zoning amendment intergovernmental reviews

Yeah, typically in these we have just as a situation where we're doing just saying whether it's consistent or not, but a number of these applications have asked for letters of support. So therefore, if you look at the agenda, it indicates what we're talking about. So you'll see the TAB, Mark McIntyre, In the agenda.

TAB, Mark McIntyre, No, it wouldn't have.

TAB, Mark McIntyre, So initially there's there's there's seven of them, so you will see there's six you know. TAB, Mark McIntyre, Six of them actually are either consent or support or consistent and then. or agriculture preservation permit. so uh first one uh is halifax township homeownership project uh the uh project's been before mr lanker can talk a little bit of like if you'd like to but the homeowners uh homeownership project is six new affordable townhouses within the subdivision within halifax township and they're seeking to receive funds through the local shared gaming grant and that one is a letter of support TAB, Mark McIntyre, The next one is grass borough. TAB, Mark McIntyre, there's doing a number of different things for Marcus street multimodal connector they've asked for grant money in the past they're also looking at seeking. TAB, Mark McIntyre, funding from. TAB, Mark McIntyre, I don't think it's a game, I think it's a. Well, they're looking at improvements No, no, it's a it's a it's a federal funding type thing, but they're looking to do ADA compliant curb ramping, sidewalks, crosswalks and curb extensions to improve pedestrian mobility. That one is a concurrency. The next one is a high meadow pump station upgrade. That one is also a is a project in which they're looking to improve their construction of a new pump station next to the existing pump station to improve and to maintain their sewer service. That one is a concurrence. Now, the next ones are more transportation related. Andrew, if you want to talk a little bit about that one. The one is Her Street Design for bike lanes.

Yeah. The city had gotten multimodal grant through CFA, through GCD. And now they're going back and they're actually applying it says there is scope extension. They're looking at trying to. On that uphill section of 1st street. Well, there's a 2nd lane uphill actually has right in right into that neighborhood then and that's actually where there was a. Child fatality there a few years ago, so that's definitely a problem area. They're looking at removing Atlanta traffic and putting in. Protected likely through that. will be in conjunction with that's where the new transit facility is going to be so there's going to be a lot of development in there anyway so i think that's a really good it's time for that um i can jump down at the relocation of the green belt too just sure so i don't know if anybody's been it's kind of been in the news a little bit so with all of the time you know um veterans communities down there there was actually the the green belt kind of south of 83 there never had an official it was always kind of informal just agreement well once the development of that area started that became problematic so they're looking at now relocating of the green belt to a more um To a more permanent approach or more permanent location. Most likely. I know they're evaluating some other options, but the 1 they're looking at here and going after some grand funding is it kind of go up. It would go up.

What's the second more?

And either go, I don't know if they finalized or not either. HAB-Juliette Boone, Do an accurate crossing there across sycamore street for like a hairpin turn and come back on right through the pennsylvania property race and nc driveway and kind of make a hairpin turn and come back down under the bridge, so that. HAB-Juliette Boone, Obviously, the hairpin turn would be safer because you're not crossing out great anywhere, then, but. know there's a lot of other issues with that too so i i know that those are kind of the two approaches so we you know we are very strong supporters of anything that that uh solidifies kind of that issue with this of the south harrisburg green boats it's a big issue yeah jumping back up to the tri-con

We have thrown our are going to be throwing our hats in the rain for the gaming grant. And therefore, this letter is also to also And then the last one is a little bit different. It's not necessarily a review, positive, negative. It's just a recognizing under the Farmland Protection Program, whenever there's a property that's in the program is looking to do something. back that we're notified with any possible comments. There's a piece of property, 64 acres in size, 1511 Valley Drive in Likens Township, and the owner's proposing a two lot subdivision. So they want to make a one lot residential lot within it.

We do not have necessarily any comments on that other than they follow the regulations.

So those are all the

Mr. Chairman, I will be refusing myself from item number one because that involves a non-profit county housing application. I will share with the group that we have received a number of letters of support from this application. This is a project we've been working on for several years. through the quite a bit of support, including obtaining the site itself. We had received ARPA dollars from assistance from Senator DeSanto prior to that site. But one of the things that has changed on the gaming apps, and I'm not sure if the gaming advisory board came up with it or the commissioners, but they now require that you must have a support letter, cooperation letter from the actual municipality the project is in prior to that you can just go to the county and develop and get that so i do have a cooperation letter from halifax township i have a letter of support from senator rothman Ricks, From Representative Kerwin and from the Pennsylvania House of Finance agency and also exterior indicated a planning consistency letter that this project surges and see. Ricks, I just feel a letter support and official we talked about affordable housing and this Commission or several years now, and this is an opportunity to support it sections this project. TAB, Mark McIntyre, will how first time homebuyers that are low to moderate income these with the preference of veterans where we assist veterans. TAB, Mark McIntyre, Six years. TAB, Mark McIntyre, it's enough for dolphin county which there is. TAB, Mark McIntyre, That's correct. TAB, Mark McIntyre, So usda designated rural area, which is. TAB, Mark McIntyre, A something that is in itself.

TAB, Mark McIntyre, Okay. TAB, Mark McIntyre, um. Mr. Chair, as well, this is Commissioner Hartwig. I just want to let you know that while I support all of these worthy projects, including the one in Halifax Township, it's never been customary for the county or county commissioner to be able to endorse any of these gaming requests with formal letters. So I'll have to recuse myself on both number one and for the request by the Tri-County Planning Commission for the comprehensive plan support, even though we've had the discussion and I will certainly be an advocate for such.

Okay. So noted, George. Commissioner, thank you.

With that in mind, should we not be voting these independent or in- Let's do- How should we do this?

I'll do them all individually.

Let's do them individually. That's the easiest way. That is 1 number 1, the Halifax township. Do I have a motion. To approve the letter of support.

Mary guys, so move.

Thank you, Mary. 2nd. I second by Joe Robinson.

All in favor say, aye. Just note my recusal.

yes yeah okay thank you you would have two recusals on that right yes yeah okay just making sure sorry all in favor say aye aye aye okay uh gratsboro so moved second the second who was the second uh commissioner hartwig Thank you, George. All in favor say aye.

Aye.

Aye. Derry Township, do we have a motion?

So moved.

Sorry.

Or one can be second, I don't care.

I'll do second, ladies first always. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye.

Just trying to move it along.

Okay, city of Harrisburg, her street. So, I'll take it. You have a motion and a 2nd. All in favor say, aye aye. Uh, the tri county dolphin county comprehensive plan support letter.

Second.

second joe thank you all in favor say aye aye then we have uh mr commissioner hartwick accuses himself of that one all righty harrisburg city uh the relocation of the green belt so moved by gary do i have a second second brian hey brian all in favor say aye aye aye aye aye She carries the number seven, the Lincoln's township apartment subdivision.

You and I are going to make a habit of this, aren't we? I'll second it. Thank you commissioner. All favor.

Say aye. Aye. You can gag me.

Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm all good with expediting the meeting.

All right. Thank you. Moving right along, the Tanner's Run update.

Yeah, Spanler, you want to talk a little bit about the meeting that we ever attended?

Yeah, well, we did have a meeting in Upper Paxton at their municipal building. it was very well attended i mean the room was full of interested uh interesting people from the school district from the from the township from the borough uh we were there two hours at least um i think it shows up on one of those charts there yeah not your time though Like I said, there is, it seems like they're moving along. There were, They tried to isolate what the first phase of fixing it would be and everyone's opinion at that time was to go down to where the pipe comes, doesn't come out of the ground there, but around the apartment building complex there where it is actually washing away the gentleman's property. uh his parking lot is totally useless it is combed off and all that so that is the first thing to get the easements there to fence that in because it is such a hazard uh when they do start that work so children and other people just don't go down in that pit to see they think that'll be a very big part along with the engineer believes that also by Taking that collapse pipe there and starting there. Jerry.

Yeah. And Chris needs who wasn't able to make it sent that update for. It was sent by email or a law, but I'll just read it for the collapse opening piece. We have all the easements agreement sign. We're waiting on the army Corps of engineers to approve the project and for the contractor to commit to a date. The last contact with the contractor was that he could have the work done before the end of September. So as Bob indicated, I think this is the first step of them moving forward to relieve the pressure for that part of the end by the apartment complex in Upper Paxton Township. There was also the concern of whether or not there was a sewer line would be compromised not only with the building. And the idea is initially, let's see if we can open it up, get it into an area where the pressure isn't building back up and that they would have maybe some taken care of in terms of immediate damage. I think at that point, then I think the township and the borough are going to take a look at what the next steps are for doing more work, particularly about part of the watershed. I do know that the school and the borough have been investigating whether or not that detention facility has been working correctly. They were supposed to be doing some testing on the infiltration that was going on. I have not heard about the results of it yet. and the architect's engineer were going to be on site doing that analysis. The borough has not released some money from their bond until that can be proved that that was done correctly. And if it hasn't been done correctly, then I think they're going to kind of work that out. So I think everything's sort of moving along, but this has been a long-term project

they're trying to get to taking chunks hopefully they can solve it all pretty soon yeah we walked a bunch of us walked the property with uh some of the borough uh officials and I was shown where it actually dams up against the arc safety building, which is actually a dam in front of this waterway, kind of, and the size of the pipe there and all that. So hopefully by doing the first phase, opening that other end up, we'll solve well part of the issue anyway and if you want to mention vince was there yes vince was there vince uh walked the grounds with us um also from the county he was shown at uh same thing we were shown uh like i said it was very well attended the meeting room was full and a lot of people are concerned that it does need to move forward. So I think by us really bringing this around here, that township, the borough, the school, everyone's trying to get on the same page and work together instead of trying to blame other people at this time.

State rep was also there.

Yes. Kerwin. Joe Kerwin was there. uh there were there were many people there like i said there's a lot of looking at maps and stuff like that it was kind of little separate meetings going on but but it was productive it was um wenrick street development sketch plan i'll take that okay

So we, and Jerry and I had a debate where to put this, whether it kind of in communications or even a land development plan. So we got this, it's a fairly big development that's being proposed in Lower Patson Township, kind of between Wenrick, which is the like Eastern border basically of Wendell's Towns Village. So it's, Wendell. So this is one right here. This is Pike Town Road, and then the high school's over here, and then 39 Ringles Town Road is along here. This is Blue Ridge. Yeah, that's Blue Ridge. So it's a fairly big piece of ground. As part of this being developed under lower packs and townships, or being proposed under lower packs and townships, they call their neighborhood design uh District Ordinance part of that is a kind of a master plan presentation uh the applicants did that just this past just last Wednesday at the Township Planning Commission so we don't Dolphin County doesn't really have enough an avenue to comment on this at this stage i didn't get this until the end of the previous week so i had it maybe a week i mean i had a full week and i'm sorry but why did you get it if it's not been a formal subdivision uh i mean i i asked to see the the master plan so that i could be at some level of it but but you know this isn't part of the formal land development process so we don't They haven't submitted a review fee or any of that kind of stuff yet.

How many acres is it?

The units is over 700, and that's just for this phase one. So they've kind of broken it into two phases here. You can see this is phase one. This is 750 plus units, and there will actually a whole different development. So they are looking at it collectively from the traffic impact study. That's why it's being shown here. So I would of concern with this development um you know it's east of lingualstown village like i said it's probably approaching 1200 and some units uh a number of years ago the county through us and the and all the municipalities along 39 to that 39 study every 39 study um actually recommended no significant development in this in this stretch HAB-Juliette Boone, specifically because of roundabout in lingualstown village and that it's already with projecting traffic growth going to be right on the version failure. HAB-Juliette Boone, So any kind of significant growth, in addition to that is only going to exacerbate and or accelerate that issue so um. I mean, Dolphin County staff, we certainly expressed concern kind of throughout this process. A number of years ago they rezoned about half of this land. uh and we had expressed i think there ended up just being comments but it was neither supportive nor unsupportive but it just was was they had comments um and then for the past two years or so our uh lower fax was in the process of doing a more comprehensive rezoning of which this was part of which we brought back these same uh the same issues of of some of the growth on where it's being projected or where it's being proposed and identified but the supportive infrastructure might not be there to support it i want to make clear i i think this is a good development i like to see this style of development my concern i think our concern is just where it is and how it's going to impact lincoln's town village which is i think you know one of the few walkable certainly in laura paxton but even in the county in general you know it's a walkable uh nice neighborhood that has limited options for if this traffic does impact like is expected the those roundabouts can't get any bigger the option is that it becomes a signal and and HAB-Masyn Moyer- In a much higher volume roadway so um you know i'm saying often county staff remains concerned, the traffic impact studies in its early stages now so we'll keep you guys kind of tuned in um I just wanted to bring this up, though, like I said, got it um it's kind of an unusual circumstance, just because most. developments are coming in with a kind of a somewhat informal sketch plan. And when they're 1200 plus 700 slash 1200 plus units, I think that raises the red flags even more. So I just wanted to bring that up and mention.

I believe you're right. I mean, we talked about this years ago. Is this the one that there's a big ditch like separates these two parcels like or something? I remember they were talking about, you know, open space, but it ended up being like this huge cauldron.

Yeah, that's the thing. If you... kind of zoom in there's a significant amount of of environmental environmentally sensitive areas specifically wetlands um throughout this site i think they do a good job here of kind of clustering where it's buildable that's kind of the whole this they're the the ordinance through which they're developing kind of is kind of a new iteration of that cluster development style of of uh you know, preserving the environmentally sensitive features and concentrating the development where it can be supported on that piece of land.

Mark Benthien, ECA- yeah and from an administrative standpoint whenever you go and you want you know it's hard to look at it right now and everything but recognize that this was sent in a separate email to you today. Mark Benthien, ECA- This was the add on type of thing so whenever you kind of want to go where was that and i've got time to look at the go into your packet that was sent earlier, you may not find it just.

a separate type of thing if if you want to get it again just let us know and send it to you again where's langolstown square in this i can't i'm trying to orient myself where is it it's just off the left so kind of on the left to the to the west of this um are these two developers doing these independent tracks that they're each developing that are now it's triple crowning so it's this piece of land here okay it's basically all of that so there's a string This is a piece of land that was donated to the township as a park, and it was then up zoned and sold to the developers.

Township sold.

Yeah, that was part of that rezoning, that initial rezoning I mentioned. It was probably three years ago.

So the township has a vested interest in seeing this project go forward? Not anymore. They got the money. Oh, oh, okay. You mean trouble crown could be left on the bank.

Oh, well, yeah, it's like any development at this point. It's they are on the land. They have rights to the land. They bought.

All right. So I greatly appreciate and value your input on this. But I just have to segue. to an adjoining municipality at a meeting that I was at the other Monday night, and Jerry, you were there, regarding a 55-acre tract that is zoned single-family, but the developer was looking at expanding that zoning. And by the way, the township had talked about doing some rezoning. And it's a tract that sits right next to the Martin tract. And behind it is Stray Wind Farms and those hundreds of homes that have been built. And to the front of it is a commercial. And just to share with you that you now have a school district issue, Susquehanna Township, and that brought people up by the droves. And the issue is really how the financing of that school district is going to occur. They had a, last election, they had a referendum. Ricks, That got defeated and now they're going at it again i'll tell you what really should have been a reasonable approach to increasing the density to that track. Ricks, For affordable housing and other things is really being challenged because of the vocal comments of the Community regarding the school district, so I only just share with you know right down the road, you got this and I hear you what you're saying but.

somehow we need to come together in in the school district type comments with a consistent message on our support of affordable housing and i think and i think that you know as we were talking a little bit beforehand eric it's it's becoming a uh it's becoming a point of topic among uh not redoing some of the things associated with rezonings along 441 next to the area where they just rezoned for the last rezoning request. And there was quite a bit was brought up about whether or not that made sense from a school standpoint capacity. So a lot of these municipalities in Dauphin County are approaching the same question of the housing is it good, is it what we want, or how we want it, and things like that. And a lot of the people who are not necessarily in favor of it are bringing up the capacity of the school district. I think it's a trend that you see. It's newer. I have never seen that before. Typically, you know, you work with the school districts. I mean, this isn't going to be built in 10 minutes. bigger view of what's gonna evolve. So you'd have a timeframe in order to get that capacity built.

Um, good point, but then you have, uh, a school district like upper dolphin school district in the Elizabethville area that took the initiative and purchased a hundred acre farm across the street from their high school with potential plans of, uh, the creating a boat tech school, uh, to support not only the upper office school district, but some of the surroundings. So they don't have to come down to dolphin County. And that current building trades program actually builds a house like every two to three years. They build the house. So they're looking at that. They're looking at a daycare, a huge daycare facility. There's a issue with sufficient daycare facilities in the upright. So they're looking at building a medical center, a daycare facility. I mean, I'm just sharing with you. a unique, different approach that a school district is taking and promoting development.

Yeah, and I do think one of the things that's kind of coming out, you know, a lot of the research is showing about the building of affordable housing supply and such is that you're seeing that a lot of why it's not happening is But a lot of what they're looking at is this NIMBY background. And the question everybody who has to look at these things from making decisions is, is this another stone? Is this another block? Is there another thing that people have to roll up the hill in order to get this? Because these units are the missing middle. I don't know. That gets that whole wheel of, you know, housing going. But until you have two you can work with the municipalities to get them to understand

cohesively where they stand with their whole pop i mean we've got other municipalities who just don't want anything you know we don't get the opportunity to have these conversations sometimes but this is i think a very befitting opportunity you're talking about a legitimate concern but yet sharing with what's happening next year my question do school districts ever get like you know here's 1200 units possibly

The school districts, the central often get to say, like, my God, I got to build a new elementary school when you put in 1200 housing units.

Yeah. The NBC says you have to let them know, but it's only after it's first. Right. And that's really where a lot of the things working with these school districts and the municipalities and they do have that disconnect type of thing. I don't know. but it would be good if they were made aware of that.

Right, yeah. They're going to go, hey, I got to spend $30 million by building another elementary school in that area or whatever.

And it's, you know, it's, again, it's sort of like having Dolphin County pays for it. And it's back to everything that we talk about as being planners is, you know, we're talking about, we're talking about sewers, we're talking about the loss of green space, you know,

of agriculture is that what you really want anymore is you want to have can you do it and it's like how do you make yourself a community and housing is certainly a huge component of that so well i think there are discussions between the townships and the from the zoning perspective and the school districts because so many of these um developments are getting approved now for 55 plus where they and then they further dictate that no one under the age of 18 can move into them so you're exactly right because that is what came up at the subsequent township planning commission

They said, well, will you consider making this an age-restricted community?

Right. So anytime age restriction comes up in the planning process or the zoning process, there is talk between a school district and that municipality trying to preserve what they have there, guaranteed. Just saying. And everybody needs housing, not just our, you know, I mean, I know we're either number one or number two, and the most seniors out there are states. But, you know, the missing middle is families.

Right. And, you know, that's the other thing, too. Like I said, it's you have to work, trying to work with these municipalities to say, you know, take a look at your whole stock. Where are you? What do you see? Because how do you how do you see yourself as building communities and you know it's it's it's here in our area we have good fortune that we're growing people want to be here have a lot to offer and you know we suffer from having stuff that's good so Why did this happen?

Yeah, yeah, understand.

So yeah, very good. That was a. Thanks for the heads up on that. That gives a lot like we said, you know a lot that you can have a lot of meetings about this and weigh out all the options eventually, but. OK, if there's there anything else anyone?

Before we have a motion for adjournment, we do have the APA conference coming up in October.

And where is that going to be? Did you send out the agenda and stuff?

We can.

And is there anything regarding housing, affordable housing?

Well, Leah is the chairman of the program. If you can get that out to us, I'd like to see it.

That's efficient.

Okay, next meeting will be on October 6 and. It's the attention to where that could be could be here or it could be in a new conference room. Okay. Do we have a motion for a German? So move by Gary. And 2nd, by Brian. Okay, meeting adjourn have a good night.

Everybody drive safe everyone.

Dude.