Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

6 o'clock on the dot. So we will get started. My name is Jason Finnerty. I'm the Perry County Planning Coordinator with the Tri-County Regional Planning Commission. Assisting me with the virtual meeting option is Larry Portsline, our Regional Communications Coordinator. And online we have Martin Roland, or Marty for those of us who know him. He is basically the foreman for Liverpool Borough and pretty much kind of the go-to man up there in Liverpool. So for those that know Marty, he's kind of a great asset for that community. Darlene and Billy. Billy is the supervisor and Darlene is the secretary for Jackson Township. With me here seated, I'll let them do the introductions to the group. Go ahead, Wes. Okay, so Wes Smith, he's modest, but he works down in the EMA office. He's also been tasked with the Western Regional Emergency Management Agency.

Keith Fitton with the Eastern Perry Emergency Management, ePrima. So besides Buffalo Township Supervisor and many other hats.

And I see Tom just jumped on. So Tom, you want to introduce yourself to the group? If you got your audio.

yeah uh Tom grapensberger uh Perry County planning uh right Township planning tri-county regional planning and uh uh probably uh 47 years of of experience a lot of it includes FEMA flood insurance studies and uh and all that good stuff so anyway well um so

This is actually our first annual meeting for the most recent updated hazard mitigation plan, which is our 2025 multi-hazard mitigation plan. Oh, there's Susan. So Susan Dell just joined us. She's one of the planning commission members for the county. So I'll let her get situated. We just went through intros, so good timing. So like I was saying, this is the first annual meeting to follow our recent adoption and all 30 municipalities adopted the most recent hazard mitigation plan. And now it's time to look at implementation options. There's lots of projects that are kind of overshadowed by this plan. And obviously, there's lots of support for those initiatives. So I don't have that list with me. So we may have to go to the website and actually take a look at some of these projects to kind of give a feel for content and where we go from here as far as projects are concerned. Billy, Darlene, did you have any projects that you remember or recall submitting to this updated hazard mitigation plan or Marty? I don't, off the top of my head, I can't remember if you folks sent any in. I don't think we did.

Okay. But we did do one thing on our own anyway. We put a Generac generator for, you know, to make sure the building can be accessed and the equipment. We did that this summer, so. Okay.

I know that that was one of those project items that a lot of the facilities in the county were looking to do to get that backup arrangement in place in case we had power outage at any point. And it was, it was, I guess there was a couple of grants that were secured, you know, from that, you know, trying to get some funding to, to offset some of those expenses, but yeah. Tom, did you, can you think of, did Rye Township send anything in?

I thought they did. I thought there was some items that were included for Pine Hill Road. And I think of the others, but... Or there were segments of Pine Hill Road, I think that's what, and then they had a culvert under 850 there, Valley Road. And that was part of that same tributary stream along Pine Hill Road.

Yeah, and I remember you talking to the consultant at the time on that, and I think they did pull that in. We'll have to double check that, though, and make sure it's in there. But I think that there was some back and forth communications, I thought, between you and our consultant. Adam was his name.

Well, yeah, and we also had Adam and I had discussion relative to the landslide potentials and that aspect and so forth.

And for those that aren't familiar with that, we've been talking, Tom and I have talked about it, and we think we might have some type of a rough model that we can actually kind of maybe put together some type of a, an application with our GIS to try to develop a layer of data that may prove to be of some value to, it was a part of a Picture Perry amendment this past year on looking at landslide potential and areas of concern maybe with the road system or even for new construction to make sure that THOSE AREAS ARE KIND OF AVOIDED. OR ELSE PROPER MITIGATION STRATEGIES ARE PUT INTO PLAY TO ALLEVIATE ANY TYPE OF PERPETUAL ISSUE IF IT'S UNCHECKED OR any type of heavy forested activity or anything like that that might disturb it.

The big issue is with these extreme events. We're getting a lot more of the landslide activity. You get orographic lifting of these systems coming up the coast and over the Blue Mountain. That little mountain, which is the next one there, that is getting hammered. And we go back to our historic records and the work that's being done on the roadways and so forth. I mean, and when you look at Rye Township, we really have two ways in and out, except for the mountain roads over and over. Those can be a real challenge under these landslide conditions. So anyway, that's the big concern. And then we have other major roads that are used to get in and out of the county. And so those are part of that. that same scenario. But so it's really kind of a response, emergency response issue that in a lot of cases is probably more of an issue. And that's why it would be good to have that information. So I've been doing the landslide work for years. I worked for a geotechnical engineering firm and did a lot of PennDOT highway work up in the northern tier and throughout the state. But anyway, so I have done quite a bit of that. And so. But we've got some pretty good information, I think, in the GIS data that we have. It would just be a matter of really applying those particular soils and geologies that are prone to that, as well as in the hydrology. And that's the one that, like I say, we're just getting hammered with these extreme events. So anyway.

All right. It's not going away, that's for sure. And I think that proper best management practices with new construction or avoidance of these areas probably is the best remedy to preventing further exacerbation of the problem. So as far as our planning process goes, I mean, We strayed away from doing it in-house. The process has become so voluminous, time-consuming to prepare these plans. We did it for two rounds after we had our initial preparer, who was like Delta Development Group. They did a three-county plan, three separate hazard mitigation plans for the initial plans that were developed. And then, you know, we did... prepare two in-house plans, but after the last one and the go-around with FEMA to get it approved, and PEMA, we decided that it would probably be best just to hire a consultant and bring them on to continue this effort. Ideally, it'd be nice to just envelop this and pull it into the County Comprehensive Plan into Picture Perry, but in order to get it approved, um you pretty much have to leave it separate so that's that's the kind of the the complexity of it all and um the preference that the the funders of these plans want to see so you pretty much have to go with what they have so um not going to tell you whether or not we're going to have money to actually undertake the next plan um there is talk that that funding pool might have dried up I don't know if that's true but that's what I heard this past week so hopefully you know if they want this to continue they're going to have to keep providing funding for the planning effort um I I could see where maybe they need to tone it down to bring it back to maybe more of a reality check that we have hazards here in the county that are specific to this county. We don't need to invest hours upon hours detailing what transpired in the history of it. We know we need to go and work towards mitigating those hazards. Put more time and energy into the actual solicitation of projects, find projects, and then have it supported by the plan. It just seems like it's a repetitive process that just I understand that they want to capture all this stuff and maybe that's what their intent is is you know we're doing all their legwork to capture all this information but I have a sense that it's already out there they just need to know where to tap it if they wanted to create that basic studies element to that plan they could do that and develop something that we could all reach into and say, here's our data. And the state could do that. They could assemble all that data. They make their own statewide plan. So the data is already collected. I don't know. It just seems like a repetitive request. So maybe that'll change. And maybe that's something that needs to change. But maybe it needs to be heard or said. I don't know. guess if pima officials were invited to this meeting today so if they were here they would be hearing that so um so moving past that we we had our steering committee meetings we you know had the consultant you know do all the research get all the information around and then solicit projects and you know the projects were gathered and put together in this plan. Now it's time as part of these annual reviews to see if there's any new hazards. So are there any new hazards that the county is facing? Davia Garland's here with us now. She's one of our planning commission members and she's just listening in. Yeah, Tom, your voice is ready to talk, so go ahead.

Do you have a data center hazard mitigation plan? Yeah, but anyway. I was interested to see that they really don't include the permitting and so forth that the grid program that the governor had just approved. That does not include any 106 floodplain permitting and so forth. And I wasn't really sure why, but... Unless something has changed on the 106 flood hazard permitting.

I don't think any structure would be exempt or excluded from that.

It's just not part of what DEP shows from a listing and so forth. So I'm going to get in touch with somebody at DEP.

That was an oversight. And just because it's not just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean it's not. And that's an executive order, too. I mean, it's not it's not legislation.

The only problem is all these executive orders have been changed by another set of executive orders. And there's a lot of limbo going on in D.C. So I don't know how some of that might have might have affected some of this stuff as well.

If the if the executive order was to, say, disclude 106. that would be more meaningful to me, but by them not mentioning it, I feel like since they haven't touched it, it's still in play, you know, I don't see where you could say that it's not in play. That's, that's my take. Um, so, you know, they have to build just like everybody else, you know, one and a half feet above the floodplain if they're in the floodplain. Um, or two feet, depends on what they have in the books at the local level with their ordinance. But yeah, I mean, as far as like a use as being a hazard, thoughts. I mean, what are thoughts? I mean, data center, I just don't, I can't see picking on one use. I mean, Otherwise, we'd have to have a separate hazard for power generation in general or something like that. Yeah, I mean, that's probably going to be something that's submitted here shortly, it sounds like, in the paper. Now, the folks at PPL have reached out to me to talk to me about that facility. because they asked if I had read anything in the paper, and I said yes. I said, how serious are you folks about doing this? And he said, it's something we definitely want to do. He said that we've approached the township officials, and we are looking to put, I said, well, what size facility are you looking at? And they said it's two, was it 350 megawatt? generators is what they're looking yeah so so that's that's the same thing you're talking about similar things i said well in the past before i got here there was a talk of a power generation facility down in the sherman's dale area and my recollection from what people had told me was that you were going to dam up the sherman's creek and you were going to have that as a water source to provide for cooling for your facility. He says, I don't know anything about that, but he said, we're not going to be using water for cooling for this. I said, well, that's good. I said, but that means you're going to be air-cooling. i said so you got the noise thing and he's like we would be containing all of the fans within the facility that you would not hear this on the outer perimeter okay i told him i said well i said to be quite frank he asked about you know whether next era energy had come in regarding transmission um connection to this you know coal fire plant in um um west virginia and i said you know they've they've they've come in and spoken to us um but they don't have a route i said they don't have any mapped route for it um i said you know i i told him i said i thank you for being open and honest and telling me what's going on i said because Quite frankly, your overseeing regional group, PJM, does very little, if anything, to reach out to explain what their Christmas wish list is. They have all of these projects listed on this strategic plan, but yet they don't seem to involve counties. They don't involve municipalities in the conversation to say, here's what we would like to do. This is what our needs are. You know, it's all about, okay, here's the benefits and just laying out the benefits for people. Lower energy cost is one of those items was listed as. I was like, how can you do, how can you say that? It's, you're talking, yeah, your bill is 20% transmission and the rest is all generation and that expense. So you can't, with transmission lines can't control that. So you can't guarantee low energy cost. So that whole area, I mean, and I told the gentleman from PPNL, I said, you know, picture Perry with a comprehensive plan. We have a work group established that deals with public facilities and utilities. And do you think PPNL or anybody shows up to these meetings? No, no. so i said you're more than welcome to come to one of our meetings i would love to have you martin's marty's been to a couple of them i know bill and darlene have been to a couple of them today we don't see any of these utility companies come to these meetings so yeah um but you know that's about you know how this process versus other processes are handled you know we we try to maintain a complete open you know set of steps to our planning processes and and make sure that you know the public has plenty of opportunity to comment and offer offer feedback on you know the context of you know maybe where a plan is going and and what the content entails and and um you know we want to keep that you know constant and you know this this proposes probably the next Quickest turnaround time on planning in the county this hazard mitigation plan picture perry's annual. I mean, these annual reviews are basically kind of updates too. And they so there again, you have another flowing document. That, you know, we, we hope to kind of continue this type of dialogue. So. And it doesn't stop with just, you know, an hour meeting tonight to discuss the hazard mitigation plan. It's, you know, any day of the year, somebody wants to email me to let me know, hey, is this on your radar? Is this, you know, this seems to be something that could have a real impact on Perry County. I want to know about it. So, and I'm sure that, you know, anybody down at the EMA office would want to know about it too. So, yeah. What are your regional groups saying about hazards that they kind of want to mitigate against? Has there been any talk about such things, Wes?

Not necessarily. My office, at least looking at storms, continue to be a continual issue, especially

not mitigating trees over lines and that kind of stuff. PPNL usually does a very decent job. Bright speed is horrible. They're non-existent as far as maintenance. The other concern I have is when you start talking about PPNL, their little battery pack centers that they're sticking up in the county,

Where are they putting these? I have not yet seen one of these.

There's one in Shermans, two in Shermansdale. There's one in Higginsburg.

Okay. And I think there's one in... What's the exterior of these things? Are they just tractor trailer?

Cargo container.

Set on a property.

With a fence around it. You have no idea what it is.

No kidding. So is there one out by Elliottsburg? At the substation?

I feel like there's one between the back road between me coming out of Loisville, like to Elliott's Park. I feel like I, but it could be that, but I could be wrong.

Okay.

But not like what you just said. I feel like I see something that direction. Now I'm going to have to go drive by.

So another reason I brought it up is we had an issue with one of them that caught fire. Oh, this is a couple of years ago now. But the only reason why we do it with PPNL is because a neighbor came over and said, hey, yeah, PPNL trucks have been in and out of here all the time. Everyone wants to drop it off. No. What's that? No markings. No. It's basically a car container or a truck container full of lithium ion batteries. Right. That they just wire into the power grid. It's supposed to be a battery backup.

So basically a battery backup. So this is a use that we've... been kind of alerted to over in dolphin county they're up in halifax they were trying to put one of these battery centers in and they were looking at basically this it would have been a big one it would have been a sizable one size of one of the storage facilities in our county okay consistency yeah that's all it really is it's not that it's trying to like full-on power something it's just

it's there it's a surge if needed right yeah um I will tell you that night uh the director for our area knew nothing of it he was upset he well he knew of the program he did not approve it to be in our account so he knew nothing of this facility being in our account that's yeah I'll tell you that the utilities they they have a lot of freedom in the state

they do and it's like you know you can you can raise an eyebrow at them you know but if push came to shove they get their lawyers in play then they pretty much call the shots um and the mpc you know is just quite open about that when it talks about you know public utilities And you notice that when you open up a zoning ordinance and you start to see, you know, they're pretty much allowed everywhere. You know, you can't really dictate where they go. So all you can do is basically, you know, try to say to them that, hey, have you approached all alternatives in your decision on this? And, you know, is this the most cost-beneficial option for you um it doesn't always have to be that straight line that's cost effective um it's the least impactful areas that kind of kind of weigh into that to avoid the costs um long-term costs because it could be something that's very detrimental to an area so um

Not again, I just had my Sarah facilities gentleman. That's me in touch with you. Yeah, it is.

Yeah, there's a lot of time away, yeah.

So it would be actual option to see if they have the emergency facilities to actually take that fire out.

Well, I think that that would be consideration right about that one's pretty easy. You just let it go and where it was you could let it go because it wasn't your own thing. It's all and it's all. I think that was by design as well.

How long did it take for them to burn out?

Okay.

Was there any soil testing that was done afterwards? I would think.

I would think that the agencies could cross over to evaluate a site like that if requested. Maybe that's something that needs to happen. Like, yeah, that's that's that's that's that's we're talking response. We're not talking mitigation here, but.

Yeah, the only way to put those out is with the foam and so forth, and you're dealing with PFAS at that point. That's the same material used in the burn pits.

Well, not necessarily. No, we've actually, Tom, there's a green company that we've worked with here in Perry County that the fire companies are starting to, are they using that? Okay, what's the technology? you know it's similar to that but it's all organic it's not pfos it's not pfos but it works it does work it takes more though yeah it's costly it's it's a lot more expensive than the pfos but hey if if it doesn't leave a legacy bad property you know to for everybody to cope with and yeah yeah that's true so the recommendation that night was just let it burn um there was

there's less environmental impact if you just let it burn. So that's what they did.

Less than some are still, still play a part.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's your lesser of the evils. But if I can caveat a little bit on the West or whatever, from my perspective of different things, obviously utilities are, well, like driven pests, telephone pole that's been sheared off and impeding traffic i think somebody came out and did something with quite some time now but uh talking about ppnl i don't know slightly going off subject but they're looking at putting in enforcing their structure their whole structure out through of the township and dropping poles in and where they're putting stakes in is even in little uh runoff streams whatever and that type of thing so i mean it's by those that put a telephone pole there that's going to block it right it's going to block it yeah um so otherwise the actual hazards and mitigation whatever is more so like i feel is a going back to all these other things of protecting our resources of water air that type of thing but also with the traffic influx of uh ways of going around talking about landslides prior or whatever, like majority, these municipalities will ever have one or two major routes that go through them. If something happens there, how you transverse in commerce around, maybe more so the Eastern end where two major highways that go down through the county. So something happens there,

Yeah, times brought that up with the floodplain and how roads, some of our major highways become inundated with floodwaters and they become impassable and it forces detouring, like during severe storm events. And, you know, 850 is not to be overlooked. It happens.

But it sounds to me like maybe part of our hazard mitigation should be that we are addressing, you know, and all concerned about the utilities, particularly PPNL and they're, they're just, you know, intentional and deliberate use of the land and without notice or care, you know.

Willingness to come to the municipality, even to have the conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

And even when I've seen them replace poles in some places where poles have gone down two and three times, one near my house that's been hit like three times in the last five years, and they just keep replacing it. When are you going to consider maybe moving the pole? You know, I mean, it's just crazy.

Is there a way to consider even having Perry County come out and say, hey, Grant, you want to put new lines in and bury them all?

Well, some municipalities have put that in their ordinance for servicing properties. But as far as the main lines go, I guess if it's a large enough size development, you could require the development itself to be buried.

So now you have those transformers on the ground.

Right. RIGHT.

YEAH, YOU SEE THAT.

IT DEPENDS ON THE LOCATION. YEAH, SOME MUNICIPALITIES, MAYBE SOME, AND CHARLES, YOU'RE FROM UP IN SEALINGS GROVE AREA, RIGHT? SO MAYBE UNION COUNTY HAS SOME DIFFERENT, YOU KNOW, RULES AND REGS. YES, YES.

And I don't do big development like that anymore. Yeah. Yeah. New residential, like, if you're doing like a 10 lot subdivision, I think it's required.

Oh, well, I think it's all back to the local municipalities. Yeah.

I think the only 1 in Perry county that has it actually in their subdivision land of all minorities that I've seen was wheatfield township. And they probably had lots of power outages in the township that probably, you know, demanded that of them to put some type of a provision in. Or like maybe somebody lost. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I mean, maybe they do have some other ordinances on the books that are separate from the SALDO that maybe they plugged some requirement in. But I'm, you know, that's the only one that comes to mind. and that was that was an amendment that they submitted you know since I've been here that I saw and I was like oh that's interesting I wonder why nobody else is doing that but oh it's a five or more five or more okay I have seen some other ones that were outside of um that's state like that's ppl yeah outside of wheatfield township now that you mentioned that municipal it's like a state thing okay pretty smart yeah sure it is that's why maybe i know maybe you can move to each other um yeah i i could um really quickly go to I think it's on, you folks host it on your website. I'm just gonna, Larry, for those that are out there, if you wanna go to like Perry County and try the website to the county EMA for pulling it up. And so Perry Co. Just go to Perry County.

Yeah, what's the address for that, Jason?

I can let you know here in a second. The primary?

Yep.

And then under departments at the top on Perry County's homepage, you can go to departments and then go down to emergency management right there. It's in the center on the third row. So you click on the learn more button.

Okay, hang on a second here. It's taking forever to load for me for some reason. It's okay. Departments down to emergency management.

Yep, third line, click learn more. And then on their page, the hazard mitigation plan should be, Yeah, it's down here in the blue. Oops, selectable, I think. That's where I saw it before. Oh, no, here it is. It's the green button down under associated links. I got it. All right. Yep, click on that.

Oh, it's coming up as a PDF. Yeah, it's big.

Okay, so hang on.

It's huge. That's what I'm saying. It's so ridiculously long that the content is great for anybody that wants to sit and read.

413 pages.

When it comes to the actual implementation, you might as well throw, like, 80% of this thing out.

We have a new document management software that we could make this easier to jump to the pages that we want.

Yes, that would be good. So if you start scrolling down, Larry, to the bottom, there should be some tables that have green headings. and this is where you get into the the meat of the actual comp plan or the the hazard mitigation plan and charles just bear with us we're this is our this is our hour yep this is the hour before our planning commission this is this is our annual review okay how far down jason it's it's clear during the 400 pages yeah it's it's

I just can't sit still. It's over 400 pages.

Yeah. You're like when you're in the like 397 page, you're, you're in the, you're in the table.

Yeah. So weeds, what did you say?

Oh, so it, So there's some guidance here for some things, some low priority items, and there's different like ratings of things as you can look at for implementing. And we really need to sit down and go through this probably kind of post this session, the EMA office and our office to kind of look at it and see, you know, what is kind of things that we could be doing and keep that kind of fresh in our own back of our minds to kind of work through the year. But it's, we're just getting to the point now where we're closing out the grant. So we can finally maybe dust our hands of the last year's worth of work and then start to try to do a couple of things between planning cycles. But, That's the hardest thing is we end up with this large list of grocery items to take home and cook with, but who has the time to do the cooking, basically? And that's what, you know, these planning processes can either do for you or else they can set you back and think, boy, it would be nice if we had about five more staff members to work on this stuff. Because there's a lot of good content here. There's no question about it. We paid good money to get a good plan. But man, it's tough to find time to work on this stuff. And the same goes true for the townships. They're in the same boat. In the boroughs. So if there's anything Jackson Township or Liverpool or Rye feels like it's paramount importance, we need to step up our game and try to work on. Please direct us to try to help out your community and also the county as a whole. We'll put it on our radar and see if it is something maybe we can get some funding for or something to try to you know, mitigate against a particular hazard. And maybe it's some simple, you know, as, you know, cherry picking some easy reach fruit. But with that, I leave the rest of the time up for any, you know, remarks before we close out the hour. So.

I guess as you were talking there, Jason, it just kind of occurred to me that we probably ought to be doing a better job. And I never thought I would say this. The humid northeast with all the rainfall that we typically have, but wildfires, and particularly with these utilities going in and so forth, more of that stuff out there. I think it might be prudent to look at where the higher risk areas are. I mean, we do have an alternative at this point or a way to deal with that to some degree. There are ENS Chapter 102 permits required. And as a result, you know, that... that that's an area where where there there could be uh things done uh as as a part of those 102 permits uh for uh for controlling wildfires and addressing those things ahead of time uh and as we were talking about the uh the uh transformer fires and the and and the uh um you know the various uh battery uh battery uh setups and so forth there's likely gonna be a whole lot more of those and and you know something that you know that that that's a response uh the emergency management uh uh or that you know the The folks who put out the fires and deal with that and so forth, we've got to make sure that the training is there and the ways of dealing with that are out there being addressed. And then I look at flash flooding, and I think nine times out of ten, if we had some good rainfall gauge information, we would be able to see these these three four inch per hour type type systems occurring uh and and that's nine times out of ten what what's creating these landslide issues uh is is because you've got you've got this uh flash flash flooding going on that's that's linked to it that that establishes the the flows necessary, the groundwater levels necessary to create the landslides. So it all kind of hinges together, but the solution that they gave NOAA was they cut the rainfall gauge readings down to once every two hours or once every three hours. So there's no way you can tell. You get a two-inch amount during that two-hour period, And you have no idea. But the reality of it is what happens is you'll get to two inches in a 15-minute period. And you get tremendous volumes of water in a very short period of time. And that's what's happening with resulting flash floods. And that's... into that into that non-stationarity uh impacts and so forth and that's that's what's going on so that just takes better better rainfall you know uh data uh in order to in order to track and and and at least know know where these these things are occurring but uh anyway not not uh by eliminating uh rainfall rainfall gauges but uh Anyway, there's just some items that I think about at night, I guess, wake up. But anyway, there's some possibility for some of that. It's really establishing the risk level associated with these more frequent occurrences on all of those items. Anyway.

Cool. Dan, you have anything? No. Suzanne?

I think so. I mean, I think somebody said they felt like back to the utilities, you know, that when wires are down, PPNL is pretty responsive. The other group, whatever, was not. But, you know, I've seen PPNL lines down or playing down that as long as it's You know, in rural areas of our. So, yeah, in fact, we're getting the dirt since I moved back there. But yes.

Yeah.

So, you know, you just I think that they do. I think they do a lousy job, you know, and we have there are a few people here and the people who are here do not complain. Nobody's taking a picture of the cracked pole, you know, with wires laying on the tree and it's a tree actually keeping it up and it's not on the front page of any paper it's not getting any notice it just exists for a couple of years and it's a lot of tension on the wires aren't there for right yeah yeah yeah it's not like they have the pen dot you know fix a whole contact you know yeah they

Yeah, you get those pretty tend to pretty awesome. I'm just thinking phone calls from here in town.

Oh yeah. Well, they don't really care. Loans water it down. That's right. They don't care. That's hard to speak. Well, I agree. They don't care, right? Or even, you know, as long as it's not on fire.

Yeah.

So I guess, you know, that's my comment that I hope that in our as a mitigation plan something shows up about that about utilities and maybe that'll you know make them some noise and having concerns about you've been going out all those utilities are just doing what they want in our rural area and it's actually reaching a lot I know that power outage is is a you know one of the things that the hazard mitigation plan speaks of I I don't know as far as

i'd have to go into it and take a look at you know what kind of records were part of that you know basic studies element to this plan to know what the consultant was looking at as far as those outages are concerned to to see the frequencies you know probably trends more than anything i'm guessing just to see okay how many people lost power on a given date, you know, maybe there was like last four or five years, they did some kind of a pull on that to be able to they've been more frequent, but they haven't been as long lasting except for this last one. This last one. Yeah, this last one, there was there was a long lasting one. But, you know, before that, the effort to make more redundancy in the network had been working. So, you know,

that being said i real quick on that the the trends and everything else of course they go off from the larger um public where so if you have the one person or the five or six that have been out for eight hours three hours before the storming came through wherever because that one tree that's been there forever finally fell but the storm came through and they have hundreds they'll still skip over that five because it's only affecting five to go fix the hundred even knowing they can see the issue for the time. I've personally experienced that. So it's more so just, as you said, making more of a noise or whatever to the utilities overall as a general of like, you can do a little better instead of sending your crew that's a mile away from the next project an hour down the road to fix some other project And some of the crew that's an hour down, maybe their infrastructure.

Yeah. There's a lot of variables in here. I think with this last storm, it was about, you know, that it was like, what can we do, least amount of time, get the most back online? So I think that goes into their prioritization. But to see like seven days out that somebody wasn't going to get power, and that's what you were seeing on their website. I was like, oh, my gosh, these people are going to be without power for a week. know we ran generators we plugged in you know the the freezer and the refrigerator to a generator to make it work but there's a lot of people didn't have a generator so they lost food they lost you know but yeah it happens it does a lot more frequently so um tom you're the last one out there um and i guess unless you have something else we're gonna probably shut this down um And we thank everybody for being here for this first annual review of the 2025 Multihazard Mitigation Plan for Perry County.

All right.

And we're going to jump right into preparing for our Planning Commission meeting, which is next. So stay tuned. Stay on line, Tom.

We'll do.

Excuse me, Larry, if if Ryan John Gesund tries to join, it would probably be in the waiting room. Do you see anybody in the waiting room?

Not at the moment. No, not keep an eye out.

Alright, thank you.

Yep. Welcome to the August Perry County Planning Commission meeting. In addition to the members that are here in the room, we have online with us member Tom as well as staff. The minutes from the July 15 meeting have been previously circulated. Are there any corrections or questions about the minutes as circulated? Hearing none, is there a motion to approve?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes as circulated.

Thank you. Is there a second? Second. Second. Moved and seconded. All in favor, aye. All right. Well, that is good and good and welfare, which will be you guys momentarily. But first, I'd like to welcome our new member. I'm probably a garland who is just approved by the county commissioners. So welcome aboard. Thank you. Okay. So are all three of you together?

These are engineers.

Okay. Yeah.

It's been three or four years. Yeah. The planes to fly. Yeah. I've been working on R.E. Davidson ever since. That's fun. actually going to get them almost getting it we might even pin up tomorrow might actually go through why don't you introduce yourself for the record uh charlie axman with my name is that's great that's great

but i brought the product to get copies of guys like you want me to find out whatever you want to do enough hey larry you can actually pull that uh digital plan up for tom that i i gave you a copy of response to your comments thank you you're gonna do it right now a bunch i'm wondering if you give a copy to that young lady in the back of the room as well okay hopefully i have it let me see let's see how much let me make sure

Thank you.

Jason, is that the right one?

Yes, it is. Thank you.

There we go. Here's another one.

You guys have any?

No.

Here it is.

And then I do have the municipal comments as well.

All right, Charles.

Yeah, in terms of this form here. Okay, all right. Yeah, you covered this one first because that came in first, I think, in sequence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Okay.

all right so um so the one outstanding item that i haven't submitted for yet so i've submitted for erosion control plan approval submitted to the jason for review submitted to the county engineer for review And I have the response to comments. I didn't bring the engineer response, but I figured you can be looking at that. One thing I have not submitted for is PennDOT, the low volume driveway permit. In order to submit for that, PennDOT requires that the local, I'll call it the municipality, sort of, you know, I'll call you guys the municipality, you know, the local planning commission review, provide any comments they have on the driveway. So like you can bring up, It's not really meant to be a binding thing. They just want your input on the driveway. For instance, I've had people comment on, like, they need to lower the speed limit, or there's a lot of congestion, or whatever. Whatever you guys wanted to comment on. But it gives you the opportunity to raise anything you know about the community that may pose an issue or whatever. So this is just a form to buy one. It's just It's like just a form letter, you know, have comments and what they are. If you have no comments, it's fine too. Whatever you guys think.

Is this something new from PennDOT?

Yeah, I have never seen this unless this is part of maybe their scoping process.

Not for a house driveway, which would be a minimum use. This is a low volume driveway, just a little bit higher up. So medium volume would be like a big drive where you have to see the islands.

So like the gas station that you're working on over in Liverpool, that, or no, that's not Davidson. That's the same thing. Same thing. Okay. But now that one had their own plant.

Okay. The township has a plant extension. So I went to them. Okay. So in this case, you guys are acting on behalf of the RL.

So scoping meetings, can you clarify that for me? Sure, sure. So scoping meetings, would that be more on an arterial highway?

So I actually just submitted it to you. You got a copy of it. So I submitted TIS traffic impact study scoping request. What I do is I generate the traffic based on the book, the ITE manual. And I make sure that it falls within the low volume constraints. If it's a low volume drive, we don't have to do traffic stuff. It's only when it goes to a medium volume, which is more than 750 vehicles in a day. So we're well under that because it's not big. So like Ari Davidson's way lower too. Ari Davidson barely made the low.

But it doesn't preclude a municipality from requiring a TIS, right? No, we're just talking about PennDOT. Just PennDOT.

So usually they kind of go hand in hand. pen dot because this is pen not regulated okay so the tis would be i mean just for a little thing like this it would make sense you know what's good right right we're talking like what we're talking about you know 30 cars in a day 30 to 40. you can talk with the day or not well a day over the vehicle trip per day so a vehicle trip when

Well, I hope you get more businesses.

It doubles because you have to go in and out.

First day of buck season is 10 times that. Don't worry.

It is. That is reality. Yeah. So, yeah, we're well under that medium volume, which would be like a Walmart or like anything, because then they have to do the traffic impact study. Maybe they might need a traffic signal or You might have turn lanes, like, forked up, you know, like, divide or dedicated right lanes. You might have acceleration, deceleration lanes, that sort of thing. But this is, like, this is way too small. I mean, I don't think I can get it to a minimum use.

We'll be under $750, even on Thursday and Bob.

No, this is pretty. This is not even a convenience. I can see if there's a convenience store maybe you might start to get. 300, 400, like a Turkey Hill, they could generate a lot of traffic. But anyway, so hopefully does that answer your question for the TA? That's the first step in the submission. This is required. And then I just got to... you can go over to the site so you're gonna you're gonna request a signature from the chair on this yeah you can check check one of the boxes and if you have any comments fine if you don't then that's fine too i get usually i don't get any comments but sometimes on a on an office supply store they commented that they wanted the speed limit lowered you know so that was good because that the community felt the the borough was expanding out into the rural township and this project was kind of out a little and they wanted the speed limit reduced maybe the pen that probably helped not to know what to do maybe but that's not jimmy so they've made all the requirements though and this this should too um so the first page in is just like an existing condition plan the house hey larry go to this go to the second page for tom second page is like an aerial picture and i'm trying to do that just to kind of show like what what's around it you kind of see everything um you can see the house out front the existing uh

three-story dwelling, and then there's a diaspora, and then in the past, where it looks like a, kind of like a football stadium there, that little bit of a standout.

This block's really small, you know, there's not really much to it. It's only 70, 70 feet wide in the back.

So the ingress and egress be off of each of them?

Yeah, yeah, and I'm going to go over that. Yeah, we'll go to the next page if you guys want to look at those proposed plan, which is way more interesting. So, yeah, so we're going to use, all the frontage out front for the for the entrance okay so you have a 24 foot wide driveway and then between the driveway and the property line is going to be concrete with those like rumble strips like you would see a dollar general that's actually a prompt to pen down to repair all the stuff so you have like a like rumble strips in the concrete so the truck can make their turn in and go over the concrete it's all flush you know so uh but the driveway is defined 24 foot wide with a stop bar for the exit So no access along the alley. We're actually going to put Timber guardrail all the way back. All the way back. Timber guardrail. Five on the side. Four. Well, that was one of the borough requests. So it'll keep everybody off of the alley, which is a good thing. But we don't want the trucks on the alley. So the trucks can make their way in, go all the way around, and make their way right back out again. There's enough room for them to make that turn back out. So there's a proposed fuel canopy. The first box as you go in will be the canopy for the fuel island. So this will be self-serve. There's not going to be anybody there. There's nobody there attending it. It's just self-serve.

Or the tank's underground.

And then the next box will be the underground tank. Yep.

And so why are you putting all that concrete at the back?

For the trucks, so they can make the big turn and swing back.

Yeah, swing back.

explain what this grid is oh yeah and then the next the blue grid is that purple i guess purple see the big purple this big thing here that's all going to be underground storm water so low profile two foot high like milk crates how many of them are there there are 567 of them and it's a chamber a hollow chamber that holds water so it's gonna actually kind of break down through like a sand mouth Yeah, exactly. It's going to be like, you know, for storm water. So the only storm that's going to discharge would be like the 50-year storm is going to discharge a little and the 100-year storm will discharge a little. All the rest of the rain won't even discharge at all. Do you have a question?

Well, the runoff water has to go somewhere.

So you're saying it'll just be held. It'll infiltrate. So we did testing to prove the water won't perk.

But it still could raise the water table.

Well, so... So it's going to move as it infiltrates. It'll move with the creek here. So there's nothing houses up front. So we'll just go to the creek, and then the creek's going to discharge. So in this case, yeah, now if there was houses here, then yeah, it would fill up the basin, but it shouldn't. What it's doing now, the water's just, Runs across all the lawns.

What is on? Is there concrete or what's actually on this property now as far as the ground? Oh, it's on the ground.

It'd be good to look at the area. If I do the area, I'll picture something.

Is it gravel, dirt?

It's small.

We'll put a little house here.

Yep, house and a block around it. This is all lawn.

Okay.

So that's a huge change for that small piece. So I've run the stormwater.

I mean, it's a big, it's a really big area. It's big. It's not like, well, we're doing 600. The milk rates are, let's just move that in. So it's definitely, you know, I run all, and the methodology is conservative. I think it generates way more water than really what, or so, which is a good thing. So it actually, you know, you get a two-inch, you're not going to see a two-inch rain discharge at all. It won't even come close. You know, 50-year. So it's all going to discharge out. We're going to do a curve. If you, I think we're on here. So a curb, we're going to do a curb all the way along the whole thing. And then it's going to be, they're going to be an opening. We'll make sure right here. It'll be an opening in the curb right there. And then that water, if it discharges, that's where it's going to go. It'll go where? It'll go here. Out. And that's kind of what it's doing now. This is a little higher.

So I saw where that was. I saw that where that was a point of concern was, is there an easement that's going to be needed on the neighbor?

That's what I was from for account numbers. Why isn't there, why isn't there an easement required?

Well, legally, I mean, I I'm reducing the flow below pre. So legally I don't have to get one, but you know, whether he talks to the neighbor, whatever I, you know, and I'm like the, the lower storms aren't discharging. They're literally zero until you get to like the 50 and that's just discharging a little. So it's going to do a lot of work is the intent. So I get it. But again, the water's going here now, though. I'm not changing it. I'm widening it. It's going to sheet flow. It's not like I'm discharging a pipe right on the ground, right on the property. It's pretty wide. The curb opening is going to sheet flow over it. That's what it's doing now. I'm not changing it. I did a pre-imposed drain, Jerry, just to ensure that... So the So DEP requires me to look at, like, if I'm going there, I have to look at the 10-year storm dispatch. I have zero. So to make sure you can make it through the property without any erosion. But I have zero, so there's not any glow.

It seems to me that you can't categorically say that there's not a need for a stormwater easter there without stormwater property.

Well, I'm just saying in my experience and the way that the permitting works and the way that the stormwater, and your engineer's not requesting one. I don't know. In his comment letter, he wasn't talking to me.

You mean Blaine Borough Planning Commission, Angie?

I'm just talking.

So I'll tell you to do a lot of stormwater management planning with a lot of different results and all of the research that I've done. This one's good.

We have one already and it's seven days.

Yeah. I mean, it's going to be, you know, the downfall is really expensive.

Well, to me, the downfall is the concrete. Well, I mean, it's just going to run.

So, yeah, I mean, so the mitigation is, you know, I don't know, did you price this thing yet? It's got to cost. Yeah, they did. it's that's the downfall like it's 250 000 like it's like extreme yeah i'm trying to get it but it's it's a mitigation you can't do the project without it the old-fashioned way would just be pops and pipes out and just but yeah so i i do a lot of research and a lot of new construction especially with commercial like i do a lot of commercial bills i'm working on one right now down the car lot like um i wish that

uh we brought this to the table and we took it to uh the new kingston's ship whatever they are bro and they knew nothing about it we couldn't even talk about it um lots of research it is stupid money but how it filtrates water out and how it works is absolutely phenomenal and i wish a lot of more should see the view of this you have a whole lot less problem with stormwater it actually works a whole lot works a lot more like um like the best septic systems you can have, than a lot of the other stormwater management systems that are out here right now, which is moving dirt and putting pipes in the ground. When in all reality, that doesn't always work that well.

I mean, the good thing about this is no discharge. So no pipes, just all the flow. I mean, that's the good thing. Now you've got to keep it contained. So you won't have a pipe just flowing water out, shooting water out.

Then it's here and it has time to work its way back into the water.

It's going to discharge over the weir, which is a really wide curve.

William Newberry, M.D. : What does. William Newberry, M.D. : When.

William Newberry, M.D. : So. William Newberry, M.D.

: I didn't I didn't release up in Lutheran county for project where it was a little contentious. William Newberry, M.D. : it's like a it's like a step in the liability for them, you know, and it could follow the D. can get recorded with the deed so it's not just like him it's it's his property you know and we get attached to the deed heirs and successors and all so i'm going to look that up and you know right i mean we'll see where that goes but you know that's just if we only get to burrow companies today right but i went to them today yeah that's awesome so you kind of knew because you were at one of the borough meetings so you kind of were giving me input on what they might

did the uh i think i i've incorporated them you know other than i think so yeah i mean now without being said you know i i gotta get through pen dot so i'm just here to talk about that so how close is the nearest fire hydrant to this i don't know i'm not sure about that you know um so they never use it they don't they have a dry hydrant anywhere

Yeah. Is it right down the road right there? Okay. All right.

Good question. They would have a fire within those distance of it. Yeah.

I would not answer that. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I mean, with fire, then that's, yeah.

Right. Do you guys have, these facilities have like a suppression system or do they just have like an auto shut off?

is the underground sorry is the underground storage tank um sealed a sealed unit it's a uh concrete reinforced concrete or what do we have here yeah yeah I'm trying to get an idea what the invert of that is versus the stream and groundwater, and if there's any potential for groundwater to be in the tank, in which case you may have – it's difficult to see the contours, but there is a channel there on the east side.

You're talking about the fuel tank, though, not the basin. They did testing for the basin. We were good for the Soimar Basin.

The fuel tank is fully sealed, and they actually, some cases, they put them in fully underwater.

Right. It's like, I know that they're definitely, I don't want to say they're double contained, but they are. They're double walled. They're double walled. They're double walled.

There's a sensor in there representing water. It's an alert, and it fails the tank. The tank has to be repaired at that point in time. Any moisture in the bottom of the tank. Between the two walls and the fuel.

The trick for the tank is to keep it down. We don't want the flow. That's the feeling. That's the anchor. No, no, I know, but that's really more the concern than anything else. It's double sealed. It's modern. That's a phrase, but I'm sure that wasn't out of the report a year ago. No, it comes along when the fuel continues.

What does the township think of the width of the road for ingress and egress?

they they they don't want to see it they don't want to see access off from the alley right that's that's what they've been pointed out as a concern and we disconnected which I I don't know yes all the way back to the future I called up future drivers here but yeah it um yeah I don't know it's not all

um um that's enough of both of the projects um before we go down for now i apologize but could we return to this the need for the lack of the need for a stormwater recent member to be joining property i mean i'm looking at we were uh the story of the fact that he's yeah he was responsible i guess the county engineers comments I'm looking at point 15. You say you added a note to plan sheet SD1 that provides the entire property as a drainage. I assume you're referring to the property. That's meant for access. I'm coming back to those mentions. Why isn't there a need for an easement across this property? I mean, are you saying that the lay of the land, so to speak, is such that any overflow from this, it's going to come down here and discharge down here on the road or what? It's going to discharge out along the property, but it's going down. The pre-development conditions, that's where it's going.

So I'm mimicking that and I'm reducing the flow back to well below pre. So that's the intent. Now, if he can get a release from the downstream property, great. That's even all the better. Just so there's no potential issue, not for maybe your neighbor, but in the future. So it follows his successor. So that would be great. I mean, that's all the better for the project. But I don't feel it's legally required, but I think it's good.

It's good. I mean, it's definitely better than nothing. What has the county engineer said on that specific point? Or hasn't he opined on that?

No, he hasn't really provided any additional information related to that. Or what, you know,

he's not he's not i guess that has there been any further reaction from art from the county into this no nothing nothing nothing nothing at this time i can see what you're saying but it's not about today's neighbor it's about what if 10 15 20 years down the road that's the whole subdivided build on if you make sure that even better but like it's just it i see what you're saying is it a is it going to cause a problem moving down the road that if anything that's going to happen is that protected

you want to make sure that it's flow is still going to happen so you know if I'm so say I'm hired you know five years to do this project now you know I'm gonna have things run off and get into the creek that's his like he's receiving it on his property I have to deal with that developer now it's an ag there's a well but we even right but I'm just saying that but that's being this kind of yeah I see what you're saying it's not today you're worried about making sure it still can flow no matter what down the road people are like it's coming on a property well It's coming onto your property, but that's the way it is. It's your property. What do you want? I can't make the water go. I can't just put it on the other neighbor. You have to receive it and deal with it. So all those people with low-lying areas have to deal with the rock and piping and drain it. It just stinks for them. But I mean, it is worth it. That's why we've mitigated up front and do these big, gigantic-looking basins because it helps to relieve. I can't say eliminate, but it's going to really relieve the liquor site. It's going to relieve... But I didn't do anything. You know, a lot of water. You see water there all the time. But you shouldn't see hardly any there now unless it rains six inches, in which case you see water everywhere. The whole thing's going to be flooded anyway. So the floodplain goes all the way up to this. So this is all under water when you get a big storm anyway. So I'm just drained right to the, well, I'm not really, you know, it's all in the water. So, yeah, good point. It's good to talk about this stuff, though, you know. I'm mostly out of the floodplain with it. WHICH IS GOOD, SO I'LL HELP HOLD IT BACK WAY MORE THAN WHAT IT'S DOING NOW.

IT'S NOTHING. HOW FAR IS THE PIPE AWAY FROM THE PROPERTY LINE WHERE IT DISCHARGES OUT? RIGHT ON THE PROPERTY. OKAY. I MEAN, BECAUSE THAT'S GOING TO BE THE FIRST THING. SHE'S GOING TO SEE A PIPE THERE IF SHE'S NOT BEEN MADE So there's no discharge because there's no work daylight. So it's spread. Yeah, it's just like a big... So it's not an individual pipe discharge.

So the whole base, and imagine this is the base on the ground here. It fills up and it's... So there's a curve right there and there's a curve up there. Okay. Fill up over the top.

So unlike what you designed for the building supply where you had that out to a separate box culvert close to the creek, Then it had to raise up a certain level in the box culvert, then go discharge. This is all on the ground. This is all on the ground and it comes out side feeds. Without it.

Now there's a clay pipe that runs through, but we put dye in it. We couldn't find it. I thought 30 gallons of water down there full of dye. We couldn't find it anywhere. So this thing does about nothing. So I can't, you know, I would love to use that pipe, but I I'd almost rather just leave it alone, and it's probably just destroyed.

Like, it probably is, like... Are you sure it's not somebody's septic system? I didn't...

I would highly surmise that most of those houses on the east side of the street in Blaine, which I don't think they're there, they probably at one time had cellar drains that discharged into that run. It probably dug trenches for drain water. That's probably what... Drain water, whatever. I don't know. That's probably what we did, Brandon.

Nothing like the function. We looked and looked and looked. So when it does rain, water does come out of that pipe, you know, and goes back down.

Oh, it's actually, so I think it's going to be around. If it rains, it could be a storm, but I'm not sure what it is. But when it rains hard, the water comes up out of that pipe and goes back down. We can't find the creek discharge, so we don't know where it is.

I had the survey done. I'm looking. We tried to, we've got another location. We tried to line it up. We couldn't. So the point is that I just, I mean, for any kind of storm, more than, like, you know, if it happens, or I mean, there's any more than that, it's, but I think we're doing, I think we're doing the right thing with what we're doing. It's difficult. Where am I going to discharge? You know, we're going to discharge. You can't go to the stream. We're getting rid of more surface water than what was before. Oh, yeah. There's no discharge at all.

Right. But you're also creating. because of the concrete pad and the other concrete you're creating, you know, can't absorb. So, yeah.

So, but the 50-year storm barely discharges. Yeah. Even with all the concrete. So, it's a pain. I get it, though.

I'm just very against concrete, big time.

Oh, boy. Anyway, period. Well, but here's what's nice. So, pavement, though, you've got to boil it, paint it, right? So, concrete, you put it in and it's done. right 30 years it's good right you don't do you don't touch it with oil it doesn't it's rigid it doesn't move it it's it doesn't rot but we're at the place and or i mean certainly in this county we want to preserve the yeah well that's been basically we want to yes you get to oil it and oil it and oil it just required a lot more than to me that's not great for the environment i don't talk it's one and done

no we need to go back to to um you know stone with with you know it would be blocks even with grass in between whatever right you know um you know that's yeah yeah that's what we need to do and do like pervy stuff for like recreational parking lots great you know it works well in that instance that's where you don't have to plow to learn right

No, but I get it though. It's the world we live in with all the trucks, so probably going to get worse before it gets better.

For something like this, was there a slight difference between a traffic study versus what would be progressing from in that direction? Because I know, like, I don't live very far from you, and I can tell you, you're actually going to be closer to me now than Moiso, right, to go get fuel. So you're going to have people like me that now are adding fuel. on that traffic. So is there a difference between a current traffic study versus what's proposed?

Well, the threshold is 750. Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We don't. But it's coming off of a minor, minor.

Minor arterial. Minor arterial. It's not a minor collector. So that's the good news. It's not about a township road event. So that would cause, at least this is a main road, so we don't know.

Yeah. I was just curious about that.

Is there any lights? We don't want them.

No. No, I know. No, we don't.

We don't have a light either. We need a lot of light. We need a lot of traffic to generate traffic.

No, no, Perry County has a lot too.

We need a lot of traffic too. It creates delay. Traffic creates delay. I like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they work with. Yeah. They probably help with the light. because everybody complains my town on the peak at the peak four o'clock in the afternoon it's horrible but it's really not that bad because after uh it's actually funny so they study traffic after so long after so many seconds people start to get and that's where the accidents happen it's actually it's like a minute 30 like a minute 20 or something or you know look it up after a certain period of time that's when the accidents occur so anything over that time started worrying about The intersections start to be dangerous to start, you know, like it really could that, you know, fairly let's stay in town.

The back to the easement. Even though you're making things better and I agree with with with this that everything it's going to be better with but you're still putting water on somebody else's property. I would like to see a easement to make it clean from that on.

It's not going there intentional, not just by nature of

going here now but now it's time to direct it and that's part of our job to look ahead and foresee some of these things and and it doesn't sound like it needs to be a problem that's what he said so yeah i i mean the the thing is i mean you you're you're curbing that one side

So you're taking all the surface water from spilling over onto them. It's going to go through your system and then come out. So that observable change to what's happening there will be visible for any type of a minor storm to show that that's working to get the water where it needs to go. BUT IT'S IN LIKE YOU'RE SAYING LIKE AFTER IT GETS TO A CERTAIN LEVEL OF STORM THEN OBVIOUSLY THAT'S WHEN IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO DISCHARGE TO THE GOOD THING YOU'RE CHARGING BY FLOODING STARTS WELL YEAH I MEAN IF YOU'RE LIKE WE'RE NOT OFF THE FLOW IF WELL I MEAN THE 100 YEAR COMES ONTO THE PROPERTY IN JUST A LITTLE AREA BUT THE 50 YEAR I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR UP ONTO THE PROPERTY IT GOES SO they might see the the yard get wet where it didn't before like during that type of a storm but I don't I mean from from an engineering perspective I mean I'm I'm just hearing your words on it I I think you know the the county engineer needs to at least have a chance to kind of provide some type of feedback on this um so um I I I really appreciate, like, your promptness in getting response to comments back. And, you know, I'm glad Ryan was able to kind of get a chance to look them over, but apparently he didn't feel comfortable, like, to... Sure, sure. You know, in the meantime, I'll... We just want to come present it.

We'll spit the pen out for a minute.

Yeah.

You know, take your guys' comments, and...

i'm glad that we got you know the municipal comments back too um but i don't know i mean as far as that form goes jim what were your thoughts and what's the commission's thoughts on the form for pendoff if they want to get that process started nothing saying you're approving it that's not right just if you have anybody comments with local people but you don't know things I don't know I I mean I I was yeah I mean if if you're looking for staff thoughts on that I I just I feel like the borough has has made its mention of what they want as far as that alley is concerned I think pendot needs to be made aware of that okay that'd be good but the only use of not don't use the alley for any project use

That seems fair.

I think that's, I mean, it should be part of the process for their review. So I think that that should be shared with PennDOT.

How big of a barrier is going along the side?

It's going to be a big barrier. It's going to be a lot of water to puddle the island. Yeah. That was my question.

Is there a place that's not going to be too wide for you to see vehicles?

the the so the garden mills gonna won't puddle in water they'll carry that up you know it's just gonna make that i'm gonna take all the water from the alley and bring it over six by six with there's a detail on the next week so that's not going to create any more water

It's over.

No, it's the temper spaces.

Yes, I apologize.

No, no, it's a great question. It's just a simple temper. I'm not going to admit it's not meant to. I mean, I suppose a car could drive through if they had to. You know, it's not like it's going to it's just meant to deter cars from going through, you know, so many facts. And we're going to build my break off and I don't know, but they're pretty good sized post small.

So, that means upon hearing, like, Ryan's comments related to your response to his comments, you should be able to formulate some type of a modification request letter for the sections that you're going to ask for relief from. We don't have any type of modification request letter. Yeah, it's just very simple.

Yeah, to identify.

Yeah, but I mean, there's some of these comments that if he comes back and he's. Oh, the engineer. Yeah.

I think I've answered everything that they want. And you might get, you know, that. Yeah, that's fine. We'll go from there. We'll get them to respond.

All right.

um yeah that's good where are we at timing on this thing um we're we're good for one more meeting it's the i'm gonna have to request an extension for pen dot permit let's go for a little while i won't have that back on this meeting there's no way just listen that's why i don't know

So we received it on June 30th. So 90 days from June 30th. I should have this on my sheet. So it gets us past the 16th. So I should submit it. Do I have to submit that or can I ask for it now or should I move? I mean, if you want to prep a letter and get it to me in between meetings, I think that would be, you know, we'd have it on hand if we had to go to a table like next month. We'll probably have to.

It's going to take, say a Smith department two weeks, it's going to take them 30 days to look at it. Every Smith, two to three weeks, you know.

If that's the only outstanding thing, if that would be something, perhaps there's a possibility of it getting a conditional approval, but it would be subject to the receipt of the Penn to Highway Occupancy Permit. If that was the only outstanding thing.

Maybe describe this area that's labeled future impervious concrete. What's going to go in there that would make it concrete? Or why isn't that being left as...

I'm not sure.

I'm not exactly sure. What would the future concrete be used for?

We didn't know, but we had one chance to put an underground basin. And we said, let's make it big enough to handle. For today, as far as I know, that'll be grass. But we wanted to calculate a bin in case it ever would change.

So it could be a purpose, but I don't know what. Probably it's just there. It wasn't the engineer requested it for the plan.

So your design took that as impervious into account. Exactly.

But you'll probably never do it.

I don't know.

We don't know.

We don't know. But I was just going to leave it in the stormwater and not put it on flame. But it didn't really matter. I just wanted to make sure we didn't have to go back and redesign the stormwater again. You know.

Whatever. I'll sort you down at least. Well, that's right. Anybody have any other questions? Yeah, Leonard, was the Borough Council weighed in on this timber guide rail? Are you sure that's specific? We talked to that team. Their comment says something. Something a little more substantial than that. That's what they wanted. But they specifically heard what you're proposing here tonight on this timber guide.

and a guard. They did not want something that holds the water back. So they wanted something that's open to the living.

That's terrible. Timber will look better. It won't have that You know i'm 15 i'll be you know it'll be more saw still part.

Where are you maybe you already mentioned this, where are you in the process of other permits, you might need. it's not a little comment but so it's under an acre obviously it's tiny so that would be hard to get yeah the sewage planning on it then they're not doing anything there when the borough didn't comment on anything related to sewage need for the site so then your county engineer will probably be back so his response to my response you know but i think i do the job management so we'll see what he says

will react accordingly. And not really, that's a longer lead item. It's pretty close on everybody else.

Did I see a spigot on here somewhere? Yeah, up here. Is that a well or a water? It is a water. We have a hookup. I just meant to say a water spigot is a spigot. Okay.

Is there an easement associated with that?

No, it's one that's private. It's all private.

It's all private.

Okay.

The main water line just goes down Main Street, right? Okay. It would have a branch coming out past the water front at all. So the thing I would like to do tonight would be to get that form filled out. And other than that, you know, I mean, I don't sleep in my closet. That's what I need. That's what's paramount. And HOP.

Did you really see the form?

I don't know. That's just informal action. It's just any comments you guys can just give to me and

not an approval or denial or anything, you know. Did you provide this document for our council to also have them weigh in? Usually it's the planning commission, you know, but it's not meant to, that's what they require.

So we have the comments, so that's good. You can, to me, I think it makes sense.

You can say, just incorporate the comments, make the municipal comments on our, on that form.

i i feel like that since they've commented on the alley that should be something that's mentioned you know they don't want this development tied to the alley okay impresses the need for maybe looking at this particular access onto the highway i think that makes sense that's a good problem i mean that's i think that's a valid way to yeah i i personally was hoping that they would allow you to tie into the alley and widen the alley and use the alley instead of putting this right next to the alley because it's no different than like driveways rights away next to the property lines and stuff like that and you don't own it yeah on like the property the adjacent property technically owns it even though it's right away

i thought that i looked at the tax part the tax parcel maps i thought showed it separated oh yeah i know but i don't get it and i don't know how i'm just because i get that off anyway there's some certain area um yeah but yeah but he said some of them the pins on the other side and then if we hit some traps yeah because you see the boundary line was all he took it all the way over to the

to the opposite side right away so it's technically on their property so I I yeah if we did that but yeah it just makes me terms because we don't own it you know it's not like the road up here well actually property goes to the center line of the road sure you know so it's interesting just by itself And that's not uncommon.

No. Even for State Road, usually you don't see it on State Road. Yeah, all older records usually went to the center line. It's the newer developments that PennDOT wants to see. Like if you're going for liquid fuels, the land is fee simple title transferred.

So it would be hard because then we'd have to get right from the adjacent property. We'd have to improve it. Yeah, it's good. I mean, I get it though.

All right, so are we looking to table this until next month? And in the meantime, we can work with the engineer and Jason on the easement issue and We're all on the same page on this. Are you okay with sending this out as a review?

And just, I would say just, you know, see attached municipal comment sheet. I think I got some in the file, but I'll go through and make sure I don't have replicated it. um yeah the next yeah between meetings we'll have to have one prepared for probably use during if if need be at the September meeting yeah keep them all here I guess and then we can what's inside it hopefully I don't have to reprint Molly but I mean you never know this Well, you can take, yeah. Change the sheet out, maybe. Yeah. Well, either that, Charles, or you can take them with you. Oh, you'll have these? As long as I, yeah, as long as I have one copy. You want one?

Yeah. I'll keep one copy with the file. I'll keep them, and I can always just exchange them. Yeah.

That's it.

Thank you.

The structures have been evaluated relative to historical resource potential. Here's one.

There was a question that could you repeat your question?

Yeah, I just a question on the structures to be removed. Have they been evaluated from a cultural resource standpoint?

So the borough commented back on their comment, understanding that there's been no historical value.

Now, I can't go through PHMC because I don't have these permits that require them. I tried, but I couldn't get enough to do the system.

You have to pick the reason why. it used to be sitting with various yeah i saw it here from kim faylor yeah i think there was no art for the story issues that are yeah

issue that we're dealing with. But we ran the rare and endangered species as though it's clear. The PNBI clearance, that's clear.

The one we got was out, that's clear. We got, actually, just came on this. That's all clear.

Yeah, I got a copy of that report you sent me. Yeah. Yeah. I need to print it off and put it in the file. I saw that, you know.

So, I think we're good on that one.

anything else not extra looking for a motion to tables someone want to make that motion i did they ended thank you emotions or a second any instructions all day right both okay we'll see you again next month i guess sorry

was it who's second tavia okay i thought so there's a new voice

he's good all right i'm ready right yep all right we'll move along uh communications are on page two are there any questions for jason regarding any of the communications hearing none we'll move along payment of expenses I think it's a price penalty of $9.97 for review. Any discussion? All in favor, aye. Aye. Opposed? All right. We'll move on to Treasurer's Report, which is attached. Is there a motion to accept the Treasurer's Report? Moved. We'll take one for the motion, one for second.

Any discussion?

All in favor, aye. All right, staff reports. LPA, page 12. Anybody have any questions regarding any of the local planning assistance?

Lots of them.

That's all the companies running out of money?

Yeah, we're going to have to bill spring if they ask us to come back, so. all right yeah we we we did provide them i i have a prep data center ordinance for their zoning um out to them um they also incorporated casinos many casinos and um some other use that they didn't have um oh food trucks vending food vending services you know the um the food trucks in their placement i guess they i don't know whether Well, I'm not sure if it, you know, is dealing, they're trying to keep it localized to like either the commercial, I think. But they got to be careful because I think they're, they have the food trucks, I think, located on their park property for the flea market days that they have there at the Lynn Schaefer Dunn Memorial Park. I think I've seen some food trucks there. So.

Anybody have any questions on any of that? If not, we'll move on to program progress report. Please start, please. Anything you want to bring to our attention on that, or does anybody have any questions on any of that?

I do not, Mr. Chairman.

um candy con plan picture Perry what's new with that um let's see picture Perry we are getting ready to go into our third round of work group sessions in September so they tune and we'll conclude the year with our final round of five meetings and uh and prepare for we we have been receiving some amendments considerations for next year already so there was there was probably about four or five of them that came in here in the last month that were very interesting and i thought they they would be nice additions to include so um off the top of my head they aren't registering right now but uh i can kind of put a list together of those that we're going to potentially look to be viewing for next year so nothing new as far as like new partners the seven still remain unspoken for for participating and i need to get out to i think two or three of them still before the end of the year to stay on pace with what i usually do so all right any questions on that After mitigation, we spent. The hour before the meeting going over 1st, annual review of the. 2025 hazard mitigation plan. Um, I'll be probably having to do some follow up with, um. Um, Wes, in his office to go through all of the projects and see. What, if anything has been done with any of them and, you know, we're. Like, we mentioned in the in the meeting, we will try to. assess what what is the low hanging fruit that we can maybe try to tackle and get some things under our belt for implementation of this hazard mitigation plan all right questions all right uh cap implementation Well, the last two CAP meetings, we've been meeting at HRG's office down in Derry Street. Well, not Derry Street. They're on the street that connects Derry Street to Union Deposit Road. Thank you, Jim. So basically what it's entailed is identifying... Those streams that present the most promise for trying to get projects established to improve stream side buffers, they have the Chesapeake Conservancy basically had like all of these highlighted stream tributaries and main channels that were highlighted in orange indicating there was no tree cover, no canopy. And so they have kind of moved themselves up to be kind of like that catchment areas, these particular watersheds that have the most pollution coming out of our county for nutrient waste. The names of the property owners were on the map that we were looking at. The conservation district staff and I went through and were looking at names to see who might be most likely to be convinced to kind of become part of the process of correcting some of these riparian, unforested areas. As a result of that, we came up with several names that either the Conservation District or the Chesapeake Bay Conservancy or our consultant, HRG, will be probably contacting them to see and to share the successes of where things have gone in and the improvements of the water quality in the area. But not only that, the protection and hopefully retention of soil on the property so they don't lose that resource, which creates value to your property. And as a result, I think we'll probably see maybe some headway as far as getting some new projects for the conservation district to work with these folks. And yeah, so. Suzanne's daughter, Farron, joined me because she's the watershed specialist for the county. And, yeah. So.

All right. Any questions? Act 537.

I had a pretty productive, well, going back to last Friday, we had the state planning director's meeting in State College, and I had a chance to meet the Director of Rural Development for the USDA for Pennsylvania. His name is Chris Hoffman, and Chris owns two CAFOs, I think, or three, in Juniata County and Mifflin County. But he works for the USDA. And he was explaining all the USDA programs and the monies that are available for different projects and whatnot. And I said, well, we have an interesting project in Perry County that would involve probably 17 to 18 municipalities if we can get the money for it. And I said, does the USDA have any? You're talking to a group of planners in the room. I said, do you have any planning money? for uh for our programs and in our plans that we have to develop because i said the sac 537 sewage facilities plan we can't seem to get funded and i said you know we need to do something because dep is on these municipalities backs and um he said that they do have a program because he was explaining that jim thorpe just got money for sewage plant upgrades and I said well there you go you're paying for bricks and mortar projects but how did Jim Thorpe get themselves into a position to actually go after that money they had to have a plan and he's like yeah he said we we can fund like I think he said sixty thousand dollars for per minute for a municipality to do that I said well we have 17 municipalities do you have enough to do you know, if we were to get $60,000 for each municipality, we would well pay for this plan. So I called him back after he gave me his, he made the mistake and gave me his business card. So I called him and I left word on his voicemail. I said, I really would like to talk to you about this because I said, we want to get this done. This is huge for the county to get this done. And You know, not every one of them is going to need bricks and mortar, but there are those that will. I said, namely, Blaine. I mean, Blaine is the one that's really feeling the heat from DEP right now, and they've got to get something corrected out there. So they need options, and that's what one of these plans would do is it would provide them some options and, you know, the costs associated with those options for doing it.

So that will be good.

we're hoping we're hoping um so and and they would have bricks and mortar money so that would that would just leapfrog you know maybe one of our communities right into getting funding from the usda to do something like that so so time will tell but hopefully i think the september 30th deadline is is what we're gonna be like aiming for. If we can, I talked to the grants writer for the county and she's very interested in what he has to say and I'm gonna try to get a conversation going between the grants writer and myself and maybe one of the county commissioners and the gentleman from the USDA. Yep.

Sorry, Tom. Go ahead.

I was just wondering what their primary focus was through, is it water-wastewater related projects, or are they looking at riparian buffers, stream work, or all of the above?

We were talking about exclusively sewage planning.

but they have other they have other um funding sources related to infrastructure and rural development yeah that's what I thought I had seen that that program uh and but I just I didn't see enough of it to really get an idea of of exactly what what kind of projects are included but uh anyway so yeah so but I did see where they got a pretty good uh chunk of chunk of money

Yeah, they have basically, it's almost like a travel brochure of all of their programs that they have that they fund. So it's not, I wouldn't rule out the fact that they might have some funding for that, but ideally to go after like Chesapeake Bay funding for streams and stuff like that is there's money to be had there. So, you know, outside of the catchment areas, but they're going to put a lot of their energy. I think they're, They're trying to make the most impact on the watersheds that are the most troublesome in each of the counties as part of this cap process. So the bulk of that funding is going to be directed towards those projects. And usually there's not much left over after they get applied to those projects, unless a county just doesn't have the capacity at a given time you know, make sure that the monies get spent. And then it would just roll over to one of the other four or three counties that are part of the CAP region or the CAP regional initiative that Tri-County put together.

Okay. Who wants to add? The solid waste management plan.

UM, YOU KNOW THAT WE FINISHED OUR LAST TASK FORCE MEETING, SO THAT PLAN SHOULD BE, I WOULD SAY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANOTHER TASK FORCE MEETING, SO THAT'S, THAT PLAN SHOULD BE OUT FOR PROBABLY PUBLIC AND MUNICIPAL COMMON HERE WITHIN A COUPLE OF, I WOULD SAY, SHORTLY. It shouldn't be much longer. It should be before the next meeting. And it should be probably sent on to DEP, too, at this point.

All right. New business, Morris, do we need to take action on that?

Just to table it. Because we had an email from gets off is saying that they wanted it basically removed from the agenda tonight but we don't we usually leave them on the agenda we just table need an extension next month we will so i'll i'll let them know that they have until the 16th which is the night of our planning commission meeting i'll make them move to the table thanks thank you

I appreciate it. Could you back up at this moment just because there was a time frame that you just spoke of? Maybe, but I don't know what that is yet. Can you explain that when you said you needed an example?

Subdivision land development plans that comes through the process have a 90-day review period. From the time they... From the date that it's accepted by the commission. So the way the ordinance is structured is that as long as it's not more than Is it 30 days or is it 15 days? No, 15 days are cut off. I think it's 30 days. If it's more than 30 days, then the time clock would start the day it's received by the office. Any other plan, the time clock begins and it's initiated the night of the planning commission's first meeting Palmer seat. So the 90 days, but it's still, even still because of the 31, 30 days change month to month, it won't get you to that third meeting. So usually we have to ask for the applicant to grant an extension if it gets carried out that long.

yeah fair okay yeah that's the way i have to stay on i want to ask again does the does and it's something different question because it was already going through my mind so i hope you don't mind i'm sorry i'm probably pushing your time so does every single subdivision from the county have to come through here to be reviewed every every subdivision

for the townships that don't have their own planning Commission gotcha we act we are the planning Commission for every township and borough that does not have a planning Commission in there or what uh yeah there's seven yep there's seven municipalities that our ordinance applies to yeah now all the other ones maybe they should go through there well they don't have to go through there and here they get submitted but all we do is a review and a letter back to the township and and that's the ones you see at the at the at the tail end of your packet it'll say monthly review and report jason just takes care of those and we just ratify him yeah and if you need to yeah does every single one of them come through here so they all come they all go one way or the other Yeah, but we only have approval authority. Maybe on the review ones, if we think it's the world's worst plan, all we can say is it's the world's worst plan and they do whatever they want with it.

So if you see anything on the review report, we're just about ready to go through it. You can ask me to pull it for the meeting and you can look at the comments that were generated. So that one's the bull pill one. so yeah I I didn't realize that you know sometimes site plans only end up being architectural renderings and that's what I ended up getting so I had a lot of comments to say the least uh those reduced reports happen like within

What's your timeframe on that? 30 days or something?

Yeah, I mean, we have 30 days to review and comment back to a municipality on any plan that we received. I try because we don't know on any given week how many we're going to get bombarded with. So I make it a rule of thumb. If I don't have anything else that's more pressing, it becomes the number one thing on my list to do. And then I try to tackle it within a day or 2 of receipt. So the turn around and there's no delay and the county is not blamed for. I would beg you to ask anyone that submits plans to Perry county that they're ever impeded time wise. By by the process, because we, we. Offer our comments back just as quick as we can.

All this definitely clarified the questions I had in my. Yep.

it's you know the the processes could be better um identified at the state level to make it much more robust and and expedited um than it is but we work within the parameters and we try to we try not to be the the impediment to the process of getting comments out we don't want to be that you know From staff's perspective, I don't want to be viewed as delaying anybody's process. I want to make sure that I comment on the right things, and I want to make sure that I feel good about what goes out the door on the comments. But I don't want to be impeding progress and be viewed in that light.

did we take action on the the review reports no no no no on the uh on the Morris plan plan I can't remember whether I called it I have I have I have Dave tabling it but I don't have a second okay somebody want a second Tom all right thank you any further discussion wallpaper I All right, so that one's stable. Now, we will now turn to the reviews and reports, and they are on page 19 of the packet. And these are all the ones that have come in from the last.

They're subdividing the property into two pieces. The description was that it was one north of the road and one south of the road. And they're large pieces. They're very large pieces. Yeah, which, you know, that's... I... So that's... These are very big parsons. Yeah. Where is that? What's the number? Oh, the birth of... This one here. So here's...

Where's the two pieces right Jeff? Ballpark acreage do you have?

Lot area 340, 300.47 on proposed lot one.

lot area 538.87 on proposed lot two yeah and they're all being there's lots of parcels here that are being consolidated

so that was I was going to ask the question relative to the current uh Perry County um data data center uh ordinance uh for those municipalities the seven municipalities that we represent so forth um do you expect the we're gonna that'll need to be changed based on uh the current changes that are occurring um

well the grid grid program and so forth there's a whole whole slew of of items that have changed yeah well this all right so this is in tyrone township tyrone is is actively they i think they either have a data center ordinance or they've actively worked on one so i think they're going to be ready to protect their area um provided this you know I don't think the use is allowed in that particular location, if I remember right. They just did that bridge.

They just redid that bridge on that road. Yeah, that's my .

Yeah, I don't know. That would save a lot of consolidation purchases to get something that big. . Yeah, plenty plenty plenty big for doing what these other areas are trying to get a conference buying so.

Is that what's the route?

Where is that located? I'm not seeing a map.

It's.

So I still realize about Hidden Valley Road so Hidden Valley Road so. OK, if you if you hit Hidden Valley Road. Literally it's within the first Am I? Yeah, it's not far.

Do you know where the ball field is in Loisville?

The ball field in where? I'm sorry.

Loisville.

Yeah.

If you go straight down past the park, if you like, go on down there. It's to the right.

Okay. Towards the bridge.

Towards the bridge.

Right, right.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, thanks. You might want to look at those comments. I got comments on that.

Sure.

Suzanne, this is...

It doesn't matter. What acreage would that leave the scouts?

I think that they would probably keep the upper part, which was like 200. Yeah, that other lot.

Yeah.

Yeah, that 500's a lot. Is there any big power lines that go through that property? Because that would be the next thing. Although, this... I can tell you, I hear you.

I got picked first.

Although there is that talk about this transmission line coming in from West Virginia to the Juniata substation. Camer Juniata, I think is the name of it.

But they don't have a route yet, thankfully. I had no clue. That's got to be tied in somehow.

Yeah, I heard people talking about that. Now, that group was talking about building another substation in the county so i don't know but these transmission lines i mean it's like i mean this is this the one they're talking about is 765. it's it's it would be the biggest in the region it's a big one

I'm sure they have a corridor for that. I mean, you know, PennDOT just doesn't go out there and put a road in anywhere. They typically look at corridors and have corridors of choice, and then becomes a matter of what are the environmental, the permitting issues, and then what, you know, what was the path of least resistance relative to public comment and so forth. So, yeah. Yeah. so i'm sure they i'm sure they do have an idea where it's where it's proposed just uh not not being shared with everyone like their typical approach you know questions on any others

They're working on zoning. You know what the zoning is?

I said to my recollection, I don't think that they would allow the data centers on that.

No, it's public. If it has public sewer, that

that's actually opened up to exactly what developers want for houses instead of that they are they are coming through with a new i i just received it like a day or two before the planning commission meeting which didn't give me enough time to write a letter um tyrone solicitor sent me a letter requesting the planning commission's review of another map change which I had a bunch of changes. So it could, but.

They can make that potential residential.

Yeah, they're going to have to make sure that they do. Yeah, they're trying to protect it maybe. I don't know.

But that's a whole lot better than putting that in there. It's already public sewer. but if they develop it in the public sewage system, that's already area.

Thanks for bringing it. Yep. Thanks for bringing that to mind because I'll, I'll think about that when I'm going through prepping the letter for the commission to consider next month. But I don't, I mean, I don't know how they expect us to get turnaround and get these things reviewed, you know, only having a day or two. That's why, I HAD TO FALL BACK ON THE POLICY WHICH A WHILE AGO IT WAS A WEEK BEFORE THE MEETING WOULD BE THE CUTOFF FOR PREPARING THOSE TYPES OF LETTERS. I KIND OF GOT AWAY FROM THAT BECAUSE I FELT LIKE THE MUNICIPALITIES NEEDED LIKE A QUICK RESPONSE FOR SOME OF THESE THINGS BUT IT'S JUST GOTTEN SO OUT OF HAND WITH THEM COMING IN LIKE A DAY OR TWO BEFORE. I CAN'T DO THAT. If it came in, like, Fridays the week before, maybe I could get something, you know, prepared. But I got to get – I like to send you folks out a copy of what the agenda really should be looking like before you actually get here the night of the meeting.

Because Tyrone is just used to working on the whole zoning plan right now. So he can even change that to the plan. So the new build lots need to be two acres or they need to be five acres. Like what do they really want in different locations? And right now with that coming to the table, that's probably a really good talking point. And you have the ability to help control that progress.

Well, yeah. And perhaps prevent something from happening in an area that nobody expected.

Yeah. I mean, what's the better of two evils, right? Five acre lots, five acre lots versus that. that's something that they have the ability to control.

Yeah. Yeah, it kind of goes against kind of, there must be some scout motto or something that says something about this. That would change so much. Oh, my.

Wow.

Any other questions on any of the other meetings? Now we need a motion to ratify staff comments.

Second?

Second. All in favor, aye? No. Opposed? All right.

uh general consistency review for duncanon i think this was my first general inconsistency review did anybody get a chance to read this one all right well long story short this is the anvo property where the former angie's restaurant is located um going up 11 and 15 north of New Buffalo. The individual's consultant reached out wanting to get a letter of consistency for their request for, I guess, some transportation funds to the DCD multimodal transportation fund to pay for what essentially ends up being a Deceleration lane on 11 and 15 to service this commercial business. The thing that troubled me the whole time with this review was that the applicants never came through land development plan. submission so we never got a chance at the county level to review and comment back to the township um the individual indicated that the township had given them a waiver of that requirement um and so they proceeded when they when they had their grand opening um somebody i was talking to somebody and um It was pointed out that PennDOT had not seen an HOP application for this Angie's restaurant replacement commercial operation. So they, I guess, reached out to them and made them go through the process. and trying to consolidate entranceways because if you remember the former Angie's restaurant, how wide open it was, the dust would like spin up in the air where trucks would go back in the back of the property and they could come out any way they wanted to. They could cross. You still have the crossover movement now, but that's just it. You know, it's like that should have been part of the planning process. this should have been like upfront with the developer. If I was a developer, I'd be mad, you know, that I was allowed to bypass and then now I'm being told I have to go through a process. But But here's the thing. It's like, we've talked about a couple months ago, if you don't have an HOP, and somebody has an accident, Who's going to be? Yep, who's going to be responsible?

So how could they even? How could the developer even say just because on the local level it said you have a pass doesn't mean that's a state

I don't know. But they must have said once it exists, it always exists. And their interpretation was, hey, it was operating for a commercial building before. It had a restaurant in it where it had Popeyes. And we had a gas station too. And we had all these access points. But we're tightening it down. So we're making it better. But at the same time too, it doesn't change the fact that That's a very fast-paced highway system right there that you're on. And you have to make way for these trucks to get off to the side somehow.

So they didn't do anything. Now they're asking.

Now they're asking for two. Yeah, actually. Yeah, the initial funding is. No, the funding that they're asking for is $888,000. and to be matched with 266 000 of their money for a million point one no and here's the here's the here's the what really gets under my craw because and i shouldn't let it but it does because i'm you know i'm preaching to everybody about You need to get your project submitted in Picture Perry. You need to get it moved from Picture Perry, if it's a transportation project, to HATS. So HATS sees it. HATS works it into the Long Range Transportation Plan. It works its way up through a process to get to the TIP. It takes a long time to get from the Long Range Transportation Plan to the TIP. And here's somebody that wants to jump in line way up ahead of everybody else, all the bridges in the county that need work.

for this dcd through the the multimodal transportation fund it's not coming out of the hatch now it's no but it's but it's still i don't know i could believe in well we'll have them someday no it was it was watched

better of your letter.

He called me last week. He called me last week and I said, I want to be quite candid with you. I said, you know, this is the first time that I've been at a loss for preparing a letter. And I said, I'm just saying the commission can change their mind. This letter doesn't have to go out the way I've prepared it, but my letter THAT I'M SENDING OUT TO THEM FOR CONSIDERATION IS NOT SUPPORTING THIS GRANT APPLICATION.

REMEMBER, YOU CAN MAKE IT ACTUALLY SOUND LIKE THEY'RE TELLING THEM TO GO EAT CRACK NICELY.

SO THAT, I TELL YOU WHAT, IT WAS A TOUGH LETTER, RIGHT?

WOW. I DON'T LIKE TO DO THAT.

but boy i i just think of all the people that actually this should be well that's the thing it's like i mean everybody has to take a turn you know everybody needs to you know recognize that okay i didn't find myself ahead of this project and there must be a valid reason you know but to come out of nowhere and then expect to be you know to budge in line like that you know no but he's i mean they're used to working in northeast pennsylvania and they can just ask for forgiveness well apparently they said this is all new to us we're very used to getting this you know it's like maybe i should check i've got a question at what time frame i wonder whether we should send a fog walk letter to the township state oh i copied them well but by anything specifically addressing this process not so much this application but the fact that they they can't tell people who are waiving the submission to the county that it has to be submitted to the county well if they're not accepting it as a plan under their ordinance that's what they that's what the way they handled it they they never accepted grandfather they they never yep they never accepted a plan for submission at the local level therefore They were not obligated to provide the county with any review.

So that's what the statutory definition is.

Well, in his letter, he went through all the transportation objectives. And so they were copied on that. They saw what the process was supposed to be. And and what you know, so I think it's pretty clear that I Jim that's I mean, it's a good point.

I mean, how many municipalities have done the waivers on on certain land development plans, but nothing of this size. This is this is pretty substantial. Now, if the argument was made, well, we're not adding any new impervious surface to the ground. Maybe that's their argument, but building space, I would say they're comparable to what was there before with the 2 buildings. It's a redesign of the site, first and foremost. And plus you have tenants in there that are going to be a bigger draw than what you had before.

Oh, yeah.

People like Popeyes.

Blew a lot of smoke up the township and made them feel really good and said, yay, just go ahead and have fun.

Maybe they got chicken and basket.

I don't know.

Anyway.

a lot of other businesses have to come in and pay for the traffic adjustments whenever you come in so to get the work done to begin with I mean so what are the ramifications if they don't get this done but do they have ramifications on their end if this doesn't well if it doesn't then I mean the building's up they had their hand opening they're operating I suppose PennDOT could shut them down but they would probably you know if especially now that they're probably actively involved in

proceeding with the process of getting the right. They'll work with the process. They'll work through the process rather than like revoke it, I would think. But at the same time too, and the whole time it sits like without a permit, they're liable. In PennDOTs, basically.

Well, yeah, the first time there's a huge accident. Now they're there about every other month. Now you're going to add them. All right. Absolutely. That was wonderful.

Is your motion to authorize sending all these letters or reviews? Or sending a general statistic review? Does someone want to make that motion? Your second? He's saying yes to the review letter. We're sending authorizing sending this letter. Yes.

If the general consistency is a misnomer when it relates to it, yeah.

Do we have a motion and a second? Any further discussion?

Thank you, Chief. I think we did.

All in favor, aye. All right.

And .

The last thing I had, and I was going to put last minute, I was going to put Marilyn Casey on the agenda because we talked to her last month. I went looking for her bio and her resume. And I can't remember whether she sent it to me or whether or not, but I couldn't come up with it in time for the meeting. So I apologize if it's out there and I'm just not seeing it. But I want to get that distributed to everybody so you can all see her credentials before the next meeting. All right. Thank you.

Okay. Well, welcome. Thank you. Moving in. all right uh being no further business on the agenda yeah see all the fun you're missing out there in virtual land tom and mike you guys could she should be here in the room yeah he's here

I got a beer for this meeting. No problem. I'm good.

All right. We will see you in the journal. All right. Thank you.

Yep. Take care now.

I'm going to have a look at how you're doing. I love you.