Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

AND ARE WE OKAY OVER HERE?

OKAY.

Welcome to the Planning Commission meeting of Monday, November 10th, 2025. I now call the meeting to order. It's time for the Pledge of Allegiance, and we'll be led by Commissioner Rojas this evening.

Please rise. Raise your right hand over your heart. Ready? Begin.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. Anna, will you please do the voice roll call?

Chair Harlan?

Here.

Vice Chair Zick? Here. Commissioner Rojas? Here. Commissioner Klepak? Here. Commissioner Andrade? Here. Commissioner Dixon? Here. Commissioner Martinez?

Here.

We have no announcements or presentations this evening, so that takes us to public comments, matters not listed on the agenda. Public comments will be heard at this time on items that are not listed on the agenda, but are within our jurisdiction. I'll open public comment. If you'd like to speak, please come to either lectern, or if you're participating by Zoom, use the raise hand option, or by phone, please press star nine. Give me one second, I'll get you set up. Okay, go ahead.

Hi, my name's Wendy Smoe. I'm here once again about the gym at 140 17th Street. So apparently the city of Costa Mesa gave the gym a permit. This is the third year that they've had this annual event and this year they decided to get actually get a permit. So the permit entails 120 people, I don't know if that's over their capacity, I haven't checked their CUP, to just go in and out while somebody's screaming on a microphone about, you know, it's the same workout shake that we have to hear every single night of the week, Monday through Friday, every day. We have to hear this chick screaming on this microphone. And then on Saturday, she's outside the gym screaming on the microphone, being a narcissist. If you don't follow the rules, I mean, it was just unbelievable that your city gave this gym a permit to start screaming on a microphone at 7 o'clock in the morning. 7 o'clock in the morning. How many people in my neighborhood do you think heard her at 7 o'clock in the morning laying in their beds? And nothing is being done. Nothing. The gym started with cracking their door, and then the city of Costa Mesa is like, oh, they need to circulate their gym properly. And now they open it wide, 7 a.m., every single morning. And yet the city of Costa Mesa still sits on their hands because they had an unethical sound sample. Okay? Whenever the gym owner talks to the sound samplist that was supposed to be incognito, it makes it unethical. And the gym looks completely perfect on the sound sample, but yet the code enforcement officer said he could hear it outside the building and would sometimes tell them that they needed to turn it down. But on the sound sample, they're just magically perfect. It's not logical. This city's not logical, and it needs to do something about the gym at 140 East 17th Street. It needs to be regulated. You guys can't even tell me how high they can turn their music. You guys can't even tell me what frequencies that they can turn their music, because I'll be sitting across the road with my $300 noise-canceling headphones on, and they'll start vibrating. So that's a frequency coming from that gym. So a car's not allowed to... disturb people, but a business is allowed to disturb people constantly because the city has no regulations and there's nothing on their CUP? Can you tell me how this is logical? Any of you guys? I know you guys don't like me. I know you don't want me here, but you guys are not listening. It happens every single day. And on the Saturdays and Sundays, don't worry, from 8 to 1, you're going to hear the gym. We have that barbecue place. There's people that have to hear it on the way to the barbecue place. Now tell me, which one are you going to remember? A gym that you walk by where the instructor's screaming, or a dispensary that you walk by where you can see that the Stizzy's on sale? Because most people in Costa Mesa don't know that you're not allowed to walk in front

Thank you, Ms. Mell. Anyone else in chambers wish to speak? Seeing none, Anna, do we have anybody on Zoom?

No, we do not, Mr. Chairman.

Or by phone?

No, we do not.

Okay, I will close public comments. Now it's time for planning commissioners comments and suggestions. Let's start to my left this evening. Commissioner Martinez with your announcements.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On November 12, at 6pm. please go to Costa Mesa High School's basketball gym for Hoops for Hope, a basketball tournament for CMPD versus CMHS teachers. There's a $4 fee. Proceeds go to the City of Hope Cancer Research. On November 15th at 9 a.m. here at City Hall, there will be a community bike skills workshop. You can learn how to ride your bike. You can get a free helmet as supplies last and get a tune-up if your bike is a bit old and needs one. On November 17th at 6 PM, you can go to the Senior Center for a Safe Routes to School Community Workshop. attend so that we can get input on how to get our kids to school safely. I attended the first one at Costa Mesa High School, and it's great to see all the different things that our city is looking into for keeping our children safe. I wanted to also talk about the bike bus that is happening at College Park Elementary School. If you don't know what a bike bus is, essentially it's just a bike ride with a bunch of kids who are going to College Park. They have their designated route you can join along on Tuesday mornings, except tomorrow is a day off for the kids. I attended. Honestly, it was an amazing event, and I loved seeing everyone riding their bike. I have two points that are not announcements that I wanted to make. First is on our pre-approved plans for ADUs and JADUs. Our website still says that in the early part of 2025 that they will be available. We are, I think, in the later part of 2025 by now. So I would like to get an update on our pre-approved ADUs, our plans. during the director's report at the end of the meeting and see where we are on that. And then my second thing is, I think I brought this up a while ago via email, but we on the Planning Commission have a set of bylaws that are quite outdated. They require us, for example, to have a study session before every meeting at 5.30 PM in the community room, which obviously we do not do. They also have some other requirements that are probably outdated and some other issues that are not addressed, such as the selection of our liaisons to various city committees. So I hope that we can bring back a bylaws update in the future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

OK. Thank you. Commissioner Dixon.

Thank you so much. I just wanted to follow up on one of the public comments we received because it wasn't regarding an agenda item, regarding TESA. And simply because I have some of the same issues and I've been trying to find stuff and not send staff email requests for things that I would think I'd be able to find. And so, Director Tai, if you'd seen this particular comment and we can get together offline later in the week regarding TESA, You know, just kind of an update on what's happening with Tessa as far as the scanning and the availability of searching and how we'd be able to find a project list. And some of the issues we have when you go in and try to find something on Tessa, it's pretty difficult. And sometimes you get a lot of search results that may not be right on point and things like that. So I guess sort of the general question is, where are we on TESA, and it can be at a future meeting as far as sort of the functionality of it and what's been scanned, what's not been scanned, what's available to the public, that sort of thing. Like looking up projects, like when I tried to look up the gym, I couldn't find that on TESA. And maybe just because it was old, but you can find the address and you can find that something exists, but you may not be able to find project documents or stuff like that. And so I'm just wondering if we're, I know we've been working on that, and I know that the staff has presented that there have been progress on that, but I just kind of wanted to get an update or a status at some point in the near future.

Sure, would you like that?

You can do it at a meeting, or you can do it offline with me, or wherever we can.

Sure, we can do that, great, yeah.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Okay, Commissioner Andrade. Okay, Commissioner Klipek. Commissioner Rojas.

Now my only public comment would be to wish all our veterans a great Veterans Day tomorrow, appreciation for time and service, and all they've done for our country.

All right. Thank you for mentioning that. Vice Chair Zick.

Yeah, I've got three things. Piggybacking on Commissioner Dixon's comments about the TESA public comment we received. When I read that, I guess in my mind, I couldn't help but think it would be helpful for the individual that wrote this to have a sit-down meeting with the city, whoever is responsible for TESSA, whoever can answer these questions or respond to these suggested answers. First of all, I don't like getting public comment that we just get and file and don't do anything about. And in this case, it just seems like it's some meaningful, that it is meaningful suggestions, and we should be acting on them. And just a general update we've gotten before, but somehow that isn't meeting squarely with at least this particular user's needs. EXPERIENCES. SO I DON'T KNOW HOW TO CLOSE THE GAP, BUT THERE CLEARLY IS A GAP, AND I GENERALLY SUGGEST FACE-TO-FACE MEETINGS TO DO THAT. I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ATTEND IF SOMEBODY WERE TO SET THAT UP. SECOND ITEM, KIND OF IN THE SAME VEIN. I WAS INTERESTED IN THE DETAILS, THE FACTS. the potential solutions for this situation with the GIM 12. And this has been going on for a long time, so there's a lot of water under the bridge on this one. And I understand that the city has done a lot of study on this, sound samples, multiple visits to the site, et cetera. And I have a general understanding that the conclusion is, that according to our sound ordinance, if the volume is less than 55 dB, it's conforming. But what it doesn't deal with is the issue of nuisance. And nuisance can come in a variety of forms, from the low-bass sequencing, high-pitched frequencies, And it just seems like there's more the city could be doing that we're not. I've often thought that the simplest solution to this entire problem was to close the back door of the gym, but somehow we're not able to dictate or mandate that the operator do that. And I don't know, why that is such a problem. If the door has to be opened by their determination having to do with air circulation, then it seems to me maybe the city should go out and make sure that the building's ventilation system is functioning properly, that the number of air exchanges per hour, according to ASHRAE's recommendations, are being met since this is a public facility or public is there and there might be safety issues if we're not getting proper air circulation. So I'm just imploring the city to try to get a little more creative here in closing the gap between what is clearly a concerned citizen and a problem that is not imaginary. I live next to an elementary school and every morning, Monday through Friday, The principal is on the PA system announcing things and it's below 55 decibels. It only takes 15 minutes probably. It's not a big deal. If that went on all day long, it would be a nuisance. It might not violate the city's noise ordinance, but it would be a nuisance and it would be a problem that I would be looking to the city for a solution. So I am advocating that the city get creative on this and see what might be able to be done. And then the last thing I have, tonight's meeting is not one of these meetings where we have agenda items where I wished I'd had more time to prepare. But many times that is the case, which is why I have over past half dozen years at various times made suggestions that we return to a practice that we used to have where we would get our planning packages a week ahead of the meeting. So we'd actually have two weekends and a full week before our meeting. I realized the challenge in doing that So I came up with another idea that would help me get something similar, which is advanced awareness of what's going on. And back on May 12th of this year, at a planning commission meeting, I first requested that we get a list of all active planning applications in process. And that that list be something that's regularly updated and included. in our planning commission packages, either as a consent calendar item or an informational item. That was May 12th. Since then, at a couple of meetings, I reiterated my interest in that. I understand the challenges that staff has with all the work it's doing. That request was May 12th, and I can't help but believe that all the planning applications are in some list, some database that allows management to manage the workload and who's assigned to what. So I renew my request to what I think is a fairly simple item, a list of all active planning applications. THANK YOU.

THANK YOU. WITH REGARD TO THE GYM AT OUR LAST MEETING, WHICH MS. SEMILLO YOU WERE NOT PRESENT FOR, WE WERE INFORMED THAT THE CITY HAD ISSUED A PERMIT FOR THAT EVENT. AND I REQUESTED THAT STAFF NOTIFY YOU. SO YOU CAN EITHER SHAKE YOUR HEAD OR NOD YOUR HEAD IF THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. So this is something that we need to correct because when it affects one person in particular, the complainant, they need to be aware of this. I think probably would have avoided some of the angst that we all heard tonight. That doesn't solve the whole problem I agree with. WITH VICE CHAIR ZICK THAT THERE'S MORE THE CITY PROBABLY CAN DO WITH REGARD TO ENFORCING THAT CUP. BUT I WELCOME YOU TO COME TO COUNCIL AS WELL AND BRING IT TO THEIR ATTENTION. AND LASTLY, WE WILL ADJOURN THIS EVENING IN MEMORY OF CHRISTOPHER ALDANA. We have one item on our consent calendar tonight. All matters listed on our consent calendar are considered to be routine and will be acted upon in one motion. There will be no separate discussion unless anybody has pulled the item. Anna, has anybody pulled?

No, they have not, Mr. Chairman.

Okay, so the item tonight is our meeting, unofficial meeting minutes of October 27, 2025. We have a motion to approve by Vice Chair Zick, seconded by Commissioner Martinez. Let's call for the question.

That motion carries 7-0.

All right. We have one public hearing item tonight. Anna, would you please read the title for that?

Public hearing item number one, conditional use permit PCUP-25-0011 to operate a cat lounge with 15 adoptable cats and ancillary retail PERS in Paradise at 2981 Bristol Street, Suite B3. Please note we have received public comments on this item. This is a call for any ex parte communications.

Commissioners, any ex parte? Commissioner Martinez?

I visited the site yesterday.

Okay. Vice Chair Zick?

I did some independent study and conversation with several members of the public. Okay.

I will turn it over to Mr. Raimondo for staff's presentation.

Thank you, Chairman. And good evening, Commissioners. My name is Jeffrey Raimondo, Assistant Planner with the Economic and Development Services Department. And the item before you tonight is a conditional use permit application for PERS and Paradise. The applicant requests to operate a cat lounge with up to 15 adoptable cats and ancillary retail. The project site is 2981 Bristol Street, Suite B3, which is the site you can see boxed in red within the aerial photo, and is located on the west side of Bristol Street, mid-block between Baker Street and Sobeka Way. The site is Zone C1, which stands for Local Business District, and adjacent to the rear of the property is the multi-tenant commercial complex called The Camp. Directly to the north is the Chevron gas station. And across Bristol Street are commercial uses, such as the Baker Bristol Pet Hospital, Hopoya Loco, and TK Burgers. The existing site is 27,191 square feet in size, with 28 parking spaces, and is developed with a detached 1,810 square foot single-tenant commercial building and one detached 7,503 square foot five-tenant commercial building. The proposed use will occupy Suite B3, which is highlighted in yellow in the arrow photo, and the suite was previously occupied by a retail use called Bohemian Mama. As you can see in the site photo, the suite is the space with the striped awning and is located adjacent to the taco stand restaurant and the Outer Limits tattoo shop. And here's the floor plan of the proposed use. As part of the entrance of the business, is the retail sales area in which cat-themed merchandise and prepackaged desserts such as cookies, ice cream treats, and macarons would be sold. The business's primary attraction would be the cat lounge service, in which guests would pay an entry fee for either 30 or 60-minute sessions to spend time in the cat lounge. The lounge would be limited to a maximum of 12 guests at a time, and would consist of up to no more than 15 cats. Now, the cats in the lounge are also adoptable, as the business would be partnering with a local animal rescue organization called Friends of Normie, who will handle all aspects of the adoption process, if a guest were interested in adopting a cat. The business would operate daily from 10 a.m. to 9 p.m., and upon closing, the cats will remain on site overnight in the individual kennels located in the cat resting and litter room. According to the applicant, there will be no overnight staff. However, the cats will be monitored by a security system with video, audio, motion, and sound detection in which the owners will have remote access to the monitoring system at all times. And overall, the proposed cat lounge was determined by staff as not a listed use in the C1 zone, and it was determined that it requires a conditional use permit. And conditions of approval have been implemented to regulate the proposed use, including conditions such as food sold on the premises must be prepackaged only, and no preparation of food shall be conducted on site. To help mitigate order from cats, commercial grade HEPA filters shall be installed prior to building occupancy. And lastly, a condition recommended by the city's animal services unit in which each cat shall have their rabies vaccination certificate readily available on site. Pursuant to Costa Mesa Municipal Code Section 13-29D, three types of public notification have been completed no less than 10 days prior to the date of tonight's public hearing. On October 29, a public notice was mailed to all property owners and occupants within a 500-foot radius of the project site. On October 31st, a public notice was posted on the street frontage of the project site, and also on October 31st, a public notice was published on the Daily Pilot newspaper. Within the noticing period, the city had received two public comments with regards to this item. And with that said, staff recommends that the Planning Commission adopt a resolution to find that the project is capital exempt from CEQA and to approve conditional use permit 25-0011, subject to conditions of approval. This concludes my presentation. I'm available to answer any questions you may have, and the applicant, who are also the business owners, Michelle and Ben Leo, are also in attendance to answer any questions. Thank you.

Okay, thank you very much. Mr. Raimondo, Commissioner's Vice Chair Zick.

Thank you. I'll start with the easy one. The notice in the daily pilot, what requires you to do that, or is that a voluntary notice that the city puts out?

That's one of our in our public noticing section of our municipal code.

That's one of the requirements Okay, do you have any idea what population of the city? subscribes and gets the daily pilot

No, I don't have that information.

I think something the city might want to take a look at is the city's email blasts that are sent out on a regular basis. The number of people that get those might actually exceed subscribers to the pilot. Okay, page 34 of our package is the letter from the applicant, and I didn't see a date anywhere on that letter. Do you know when that was received by the city?

I don't have the exact application date on the top of my head, but we can take a look into that.

Did you see the public comment letter that was sent in?

Yes, I have.

It indicated, and I don't know if this is the date of the letter, but it indicated that the application in, I guess this is maybe TESA, was July 10th. So would that seem maybe approximately how long this has been in the city? Four months?

I would say roughly that would be around the time.

Okay. That's, that's pretty quick processing. I just would want to compliment you on that. Okay. So also in the, um, staff report, you talk about the CIP and of course the public comment letter kind of digs hard into that topic. So let me, um, start this way in the applicant's letter, they're requesting the CUP for their business. Now, if a CUP wasn't required, the city would say, oh, you don't need a CUP. You're asking for one, but you don't need one.

Correct? Sorry, repeat that question.

If the applicant asked for a CUP, if the city were to, on its own, determine that a CUP wasn't needed, YOU WOULDN'T PROCESS A CUP ANYWAY, CORRECT? YOU WOULD TELL THE APPLICANT, OH, YOU DON'T NEED A CUP, RIGHT?

YES, WE WOULD ASSESS WHAT THE USE WOULD BE IF IT REQUIRES A CUP, THEN WE WOULD LET THEM KNOW. OKAY.

SO WHETHER THEY ASK FOR A CUP OR NOT, THE CITY IS GOING TO MAKE A DETERMINATION WHETHER A CUP IS NEEDED?

THAT IS CORRECT.

OKAY. AND THERE'S THIS IDEA OF CERTAIN USES BEING BY RIGHT. And when I look at this table 1330, I don't see that term used. So I don't know if that's a term of art or if that's a term in the municipal code. But would it be fair to say that by right doesn't mean you don't need a CUP? Let me ask you, what does by right mean? Or is that not a term the city applies to land use rights?

By rights, an anonymous term with, or synonymous term with permitted use in the zone. So it wouldn't need additional entitlements. It would be permitted in the zone.

Got it. Now, when I look at, thank you for that. When I look in table 1330, there are a number of uses. And One of the arguments in the public comment suggested that if this use is similar enough to another use in the table, then a CUP wouldn't be needed. That's the argument put, as I understand it, in the letter. But when I look at table 1330, I see a number of uses, and I'm not saying these are similar to the cat lounge, but by way of example with my question, number 47 says animal hospital. It's listed as a use, animal hospital. But it also says that a CUP is required. So just being in the table as a listed use doesn't mean by right. In other words, I don't need a CUP, correct?

That's correct.

OK. And then I see another use that somebody might argue could be similar, which is number 48, which is a shelter, kenneling, training. In the C1 zone, it's not even allowed. In the C2 zone, a CUP is required. So again, just because this particular use, a cat lounge, is not a listed use, that in and of itself isn't what triggered a CUP, because there are a lot of uses in that table that still require a CUP, correct?

That's correct. The table provides for a different variety of land uses within the city, but it also provides for their entitlement process or lack thereof in some instances when it's permitted by right. So it's not solely just the existence within the table that requires the CUP, but it's also the entitlement required identified in the table.

Right, okay, and there was another item, number 46, which was an amusement center, and because amusement was one of the characterizations of the activity at this business, an amusement center is a listed use, but that requires a CUP. So again, just because something is listed or not listed doesn't mean it does or doesn't require a CUP, the way I'm looking at this table. There was another use, though, 132, and it says retail non-store. Now, that's a permitted use. What is retail non-store? That's number 138 in the table.

Like an e-commerce use where they operate... and provide for retail services, but they're not actually a place, a brick and mortar where you go and pick up the retail product.

Got it. Thank you for that. And then my last question on that topic of the table. I noticed that use 118 for pawn shops requires a CUP. Why would that be? Why wouldn't that just be something kind of like retail? Why is a CUP required for a pawn shop?

I think there's a variety of reasons. I don't want to speculate as to what the council was thinking when that use was initially assigned, but I think maybe because historically, pawn shops might not always offer just general retail items. It's a variety of items and they wanted to have some control over that.

Got it. Okay. And on page six of the staff report, you talk about parking. I appreciate that you looked at the, uh, you know, number of stalls and the situation there. And then you identified that because of AB 2097, none of that's relevant because you can't, uh, dictate parking. I just want to express appreciation. We actually looked at a parking analysis, even though apparently by this law, we don't care about parking. Okay, that's it. Thank you very much, Chair.

Other questions of staff? Commissioner Martinez?

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, just a quick one. For condition of approval number seven, it talks about food being sold here. Does that include drink? Or is it just food that can be sold at this location?

It's under the understanding it's just for food. I mean, based on the applicant's letter, they're indicating it's just proposing prepackaged food, but I could defer to the applicant to clarify if they're selling drinks as well.

Primarily any drinks sold would probably already be prepackaged, so the distinction isn't as important for the drinks as it is for the food.

Okay. So prepackaged food, would we consider that prepared food? would be prepared off-site and packaged so so so this would be this location would propose to sell prepared food for consumption on or off-site right yeah so there's a distinction with the Health Department on you know preparation on-site or off-site so that's one of the reasons that it's classified this way gotcha this food is being sold within ancillary or complementary use?

Yes, at the proposed sales of the food that's going to be in the retail sales area on the floor plan.

Okay. And now this is an obvious question, but is this facility a grocery store, a convenience store, or a movie theater?

No.

No.

No. Okay, so based on the definition of establishment where food or beverages sold, so far you've said that this falls under that definition as it's defined under Section 13.6 of the Municipal Code. So now I have to ask the Director of Development Services if you have made a determination that the sale of food or beverages is clearly incidental to the primary use.

Yes. In this case, the sale of food and beverage is incidental to the primary use. There's no, the primary use being the cat lounge. I don't think there's any requirement for anybody to purchase or consume food or beverage. And so it's an option. And if you look, you know, it's an option for those going to the cat lounge rather than it being the primary purpose for somebody going to that location.

But is it also an option to not go into the cat lounge and just get food or beverage?

Sure. Okay.

When was this determination made that it is clearly an incidental to the primary use?

These types of determinations are made during the development review committee process during which the staff team reviews the projects.

Was this determination appealable?

I don't think this is a formal, you know, any kind of a formal, appealable decision. This is something that's part of just regular project review of operations during, maybe it happens every day in different capacities, so.

VICE CHAIR ZICK WAS GOING DOWN A LIST OF USES IN THE LAND USE MATRIX. I WOULD LIKE ANOTHER DEFINITION OF ONE OF THE ONES IN THERE, WHICH IS RETAIL GENERAL. RETAIL, GENERAL. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? THAT HAS NO DEFINITION IN SECTION 13-6 OF OUR MUNICIPAL CODE. SO WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

WE WOULD GENERALLY CONSIDER RETAIL A LOCATION WHERE THERE'S PRODUCTS SOLD. DEPENDING ON WHAT PRODUCTS. WE WOULD RELY ON THE LAND USE MATRIX TO SEE IF ANY SPECIFIC PRODUCTS WERE CALLED OUT IN A DIFFERENT CAPACITY BUT RETAIL IS GENERALLY THE SALE OF A PRODUCT. IT MIGHT NOT INCLUDE FOOD THOUGH GIVEN PREPARATION REQUIREMENTS AND FOOD AND BEVERAGE COMPONENT OF THE MUNICIPAL CODE. BUT RETAIL SALES OF PRODUCTS WHICH CAN VARY TREMENDOUSLY.

YEAH. IN THE LAND USE MATRIX IT SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDES THE antique malls, pawn shops, supermarkets, grocery stores, convenience stores, and liquor stores, which are all listed separately. It, however, does not exclude, for example, cat toys. So those are my questions. Thank you.

Any other questions, commissioners? Commissioner Klepak.

This may be a question for the applicant as well, but in the process of assessing this project, was there ever a minimum age for children discussed? And the reason I ask is because kids can scream, cry, aggressively try to play, grab tails, grab fur. There are similar businesses that have minimum age of 10 or have seen minimum age of six. I was wondering if that came up during this process.

and the discussion of age wasn't discussed. I mean, that's a question you can ask the applicant to clarify. Okay, thank you.

Commissioner Dixon.

And just a quick question for clarity on that, the last follow-up on both Vice Chair Zick and Commissioner Martinez's questions. So when we're, that Development Review Committee is where you take the applicant's letter and their description of the business and the way they're describing it, and you look at their letter and their plans, And then the staff report will reflect staff's opinion about what the primary and the ancillary use is. Because in the staff's application letter, it appears that the primary use is listed, or they're considering it as retail. But in staff's analysis of the staff report, it appears to be a cat lounge with ancillary retail. So I just wanted to hear how you guys came to that determination.

Well, generally, when we're reviewing a project for Compliance with the municipal code we'll take a look at the applicants in you know the letter submitted But we'll also take a look at the physical floor plan and what's proposed and in this instance the floor plan Primarily shows the cat lounge area the retail is a small separate component that could or could not exist with the cat lounge but the primary use is a is a place to go and Mingle with the cats and to be with the cats and also the kenneling component where the cats will sleep at night And then the retail component, which is ancillary, was the food that's prepackaged.

Got it. OK. And so the kenneling was a big part of that. Because if you go to PetSmart, there's pets all over the place to interact with and to buy or to purchase or something like that. But this is different because they're kenneled.

It's both different because the layout of the floor plan is much different as well. This is primarily in the square footage devoted for the use. It's primarily delegated to the cat lounge area and the kenneling area. And that's different than like a PetSmart or a Petco where that's a smaller component.

Because sometimes they're for sale animals at PetSmart are kept there overnight, but they're still considered a retail. Correct. Okay, thank you for that distinction.

Okay, any more questions? Vice Chair Zick.

Yeah, this subject of incidental or ancillary use was one that had crossed my mind going through the application. And I'd heard about that as an issue before I looked at the application in detail. So then when I look at the floor plan, if somebody were to tell me before looking at it that retail was the main use and the cat lounge was ancillary, I'd be surprised when I looked at the layout and saw that the customer sales area is only 64 square feet. of an overall premises of 1,000 square feet. So from the standpoint of determining whether something's ancillary or not, do you look at the square footage, or do you look at the anticipated sales for the various activities? How do you determine, well, the retails, the ancillary use, and cat lounges, the main use, or vice versa?

I mean, we wish that there was a perfect prescription to provide for that in some instances. In this case, based on our knowledge of how the day-to-day operations would work and just looking at the floor plan and talking with the applicant, that was the determination that was made.

Yeah, okay. The fact that they charge for people to go in with the cats kind of makes that a pretty big part of the business. That's correct. I would think as well. Okay, thank you.

Okay, just a few quick questions. I just want to sort of summarize some of the questions that were asked by my colleagues. So we don't have cat lounge as a use in our code, obviously. So the analysis by staff is to look at what would be a substantially similar use and then see how it relates to the actual zoning, correct? Okay, so in this case, it's a C1 zone, local business, a animal use. I know Commissioner Zick mentioned a number of those. It's not allowed in the C1 zone. It is, however, allowed in the C2 zone with the CUP, correct?

That's correct.

Okay, so that would be the reason for why CUP would be required in this instance.

Yeah, and the incidental kenneling component, which was ALLOWED AS AN INCIDENTAL USE TO VETERINARY SERVICES IN THE C-1 ZONE THAT'S ALLOWED WITH A USE PERMIT, WE FELT FIT AS A SIMILAR USE TO THIS USE AS WELL.

OKAY. SO THERE'S SOME DISCRETION THAT STAFF USES TRYING TO MAKE A REASONABLE ANALYSIS OF WHAT IS AN UNUSUAL USE IN PROBABLY AN UNUSUAL ZONE.

THAT'S CORRECT.

OKAY. THAT'S ALL.

MR. CHAIRMAN.

OKAY.

Yeah, I just want to ask this question with the exact language that's in the code that I think you're trying to get at. So the exact language in section 1330D is any proposed use not listed in the land use matrix shall be reviewed by the development services director to determine its similarity to another listed use. If no substantial similarity exists, the proposed use shall require approval of a conditional use permit prior to establishment of the use. So is it correct to say that you found no similarity with anything in the land use matrix, which is why we have to do a conditional use permit for this project?

YES AND NO. SO ULTIMATELY I BELIEVE WHEN STAFF WAS REVIEWING THIS IT ISN'T SIMILAR TO A LISTED USE THAT PRESCRIBES THE ENTITLEMENT PROCESS SO IT REQUIRES A CUP. IN ORDER TO SUPPORT THE CUP WE'LL RELY ON OTHER POTENTIALLY LISTED USES AND HOW THEY FIT WITH THE ZONE AND OR THE PROPOSED USE AND WE'LL DETERMINE THEN IF WE CAN SUPPORT THE CUP AND THAT'S WHAT STAFF DID IN THIS INSTANCE BECAUSE IT'S both the kenneling and animal service uses in the C2 zone, but also the veterinary service with incidental kennel uses in the C1 zone.

Okay.

So that provision essentially has both a substantive and a process component. That's correct. Okay. All right. Vice Chair Zick. THIRD AND FINAL CHANCE.

I'M SURE THE APPLICANT IS HEARING THIS AND FREAKING OUT BUT THIS IS SIMPLY DWELLING ON THE ISSUE OF WHETHER A CUP IS REQUIRED OR NOT AND I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ'S QUESTION. WHAT HE READ SAID, IF THE USE IS NOT ONE OF THE LISTED USES, A CUP IS REQUIRED PRETTY MUCH BY DEFINITION. HOWEVER, THE CONVERSE ISN'T that if it is a listed use, you don't need a CUP. So it's not so much a question of whether it's listed or not, meaning I have to have a CUP or I don't have to have a CUP. It's clearly a CUP if it's not listed. And if it is listed, it may or may not require a CUP.

It says similar, have similarity to another listed use, and in this case.

But let's say you said, you know what, this is very, very similar. to number 47, animal hospital. No, it's very similar to number 48, a shelter kennel training. It's very similar. If you made that determination, that doesn't mean no CUP is required because those two uses are in the table and they require a CUP. So just because it is in the table doesn't mean it doesn't need a CUP is a question I'm making at the same time I'm trying to make the point.

Yes.

Thank you.

All right. With that, I'm going to open the public hearing and ask whether the applicant or applicant's representative is here and would like to make a presentation.

Hi, thanks so much for taking this into account.

So before you get started, thank you, I just want you to state your names for the record, and then please tell us if you've read the conditions of approval and if you agree to them.

Yeah, Ben Leo, and yes, I did read them and agree with them. Okay, go right ahead.

Michelle Leo, and same, I've read and agreed to the conditions.

All right, the floor is yours. Cool.

We have a, sorry.

brief little presentation for you guys. And thank you for your willingness to be open to us bringing this concept to Costa Mesa. We're very excited about it. So we just want to share with you a little bit more our Cat Lounge Purrs in Paradise. And you can do the next slide.

Yeah, we'll keep it really brief since I know you guys already looked through a lot of this. So in general, our mission is going to be providing a really clean, cozy, fun environment of enrichment for the cats that need a permanent home. as well as for any customers who really want to enjoy time with cats and enjoy the atmosphere that we're going to put together so we're going to make it really fun and lively and keep it both entertaining for the customers as well as for the cats who are available for adoption and we just want to make sure it's a you know mutually beneficial arrangement for everyone involved including the city too

Can you do next slide, please? We just want to share a little bit about our amazing rescue partner, Friends of Normie. We feel super fortunate to partner with them. They were formed in 2020, and since then, Friends of Normie has already rescued 5,607 cats in counting. In 2024, Friends of Normie took in 1,077 cats, adopted out 843 cats, and with the help of 213 volunteer fosters. Friends of Normie is only foster-based, so we're really excited to help with their reach, having a bit of a physical space to help with these cats. Another statistic that's amazing, in 2024, Friends of Normie also started a trap, neuter, and return program, and they have spayed and neutered 286 cats and counting, which over the years will prevent millions and millions of homeless cats.

Next slide, please.

Cool. So we just want to expand the impact that Friends of Normie is having on the stray cat population and, you know, just really find good homes for the cats and get people interacting with the cats that they want to adopt. And so we hope to bring this wonderful experience to the city of Costa Mesa and, you know, increase revenue for all as well.

Okay.

And then our final slide, this is us with our kitties. We rescued them as feral kittens covered in fleas, and it's just been the greatest gift to us to give them a better home, and the love that they brought into our home has just been absolutely immeasurable. So we are happy and excited to change the lives of so many cats in need and so many families and really want to make this a must-visit destination for Costa Mesa.

Thank you, Ben. And Michelle, if you'd like, I'll give you some time after public comment if you want to respond to any concerns. If not, feel no obligation.

OK. Sure.

Thank you.

Did you want us to answer the question about the age limit too? Sure. So yeah, we were considering age limit or at least making it necessary for parents to go in with the children. So we're still thinking there's probably like five or six year old age limit.

Yeah, and we do want to be mindful of too, you know, many of these cats that will get adopted out are going to be going into families and it is important for the families to know how, you know, their kids interact with the cats also. So we might have some, you know, specific hours with very limited attendance where, You know, toddlers could come in, but everything will be very supervised with parents and employees.

Great.

Yeah, thank you. I just want to make sure it's a safe environment for the cats first and foremost because they can create an unsafe environment for the people that are there. And I would personally appreciate to see a minimum age limit because it can get overwhelming very quickly. Kids don't pick up on body language cues like if a cat is uncomfortable to back off and give them space. Definitely one and wouldn't want to see like kids parties Free-for-all you know so I am sensitive to that so I'm happy to hear that you gave that some thought I'm also really happy to hear that friends of normie supports a tnr program That's something I would like to see the city of Costa Mesa consider its trap neuter return and it's a very beneficial program for we have other cities around us that do it so I THANK YOU FOR THAT.

I'LL MAKE A PLUG FOR CHRISTA MESA ON THAT, TOO.

AWESOME. LOVE TO HEAR IT.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OF THE APPLICANTS? COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ?

THANK YOU. IN YOUR APPLICANT LETTER, ONE OF THE POINTS IS THE PROPOSED HOURS OF OPERATION 10-9 AND THEN IN PARENTHESES IT SAYS SUBJECT TO CHANGE DEPENDING ON DEMAND. ONE OF OUR CONDITIONS IS THAT is that the hours of operation shall be limited to 10 AM to 9 PM. So I wanted to ask, are you OK with that condition, given what is in your applicant letter?

Yes, but I was wondering what if we have overwhelming demand and let's say people want to visit you know between that like nine to 10 o'clock hour at night, what would be the process of getting that extension to say 10 to 10.

Staff.

It would be suggested that the desired hours of operation are included in the use permit so. If there needs to be an adjustment, the Planning Commission can consider that. I think I've heard both ways, starting earlier or also extending until 10 p.m., but that should be a discussion that the Commission has.

Okay.

Because to amend that would technically require an amendment to the CEP.

Yeah. We will keep that in mind. Next, I wanted to ask about the overnight of... of the cats and how there's no staff there. And I just wanted to ask how you came to that conclusion that there would be no staff there. Has it been seen as an OK practice to have no staff at facilities like this? I just want your thoughts.

sure yes we did speak with our rescue partner and also our that at length about this to get you know get advice but similar to a shelter you know the animals are kenneled overnight and there is you know security monitoring and video monitoring so we will have all those in place but it's similar to a shelter and we are you're going to be kenneling them at night so we can really track if anything you know if a cat is sick or anything is happening or they're not eating not using their litter box anything looks off then I'm you know, we know what to take care of. All right.

Also, many cat lounges in existence, you know, both internationally and locally, none of them have people who are staying on site overnight. They're not like sick patients or anything. They have to keep an eye on them 24-7. So it's pretty standard practice. All right.

And one final question for you. It says that you're going to be selling desserts, probably some cat-themed merchandise, some cat toys. So would I be able to go to your business and, for a friend, buy some cat toys, but then not use the cat lounge portion of your business?

Yeah, absolutely. Anyone can come in and buy a treat, buy a cat toy if they want and not coincide. We're even going to have like a window between the retail area and the cat lounge area so people can, you know, enjoy a treat, have a drink, look at the cats, you know, just enjoy the place. Yeah, if you're allergic to cats and just want to like look at them. All right.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Commissioner Dixon.

Thank you so much. So as friends of Normie, is that your exclusive partner? And where are they located, or where is their main focus? I know it says Southern California on their website.

Yes, Orange County, they do have fosters all throughout Southern California, but it is Orange County-based. So we want to make as much impact as we can in the local area. And they were phenomenal helping during the L.A. fires and if people are in need outside of the area, too. But it is an Orange County-based rescue.

And is it a rescue where they typically remove animals from shelters that get picked up that may be a kill shelter? Or is it the typical rescue where they pull them out of shelters or government shelters or where they're picked up? Or do they have other forms of getting the animals?

All kinds of ways. Honestly, they have. I mean, just constantly. I know they have a huge influx of cats that need foster all the time, just that are found on the streets and sick, and they're always trying to help the ones that are the most in need. So sometimes it is from shelters, safe cats from euthanasia, and also just ones that are found. I mean, very sad situations, cats that are dumped in all kinds of different things. They'll save them. Okay.

Thank you very much. Of course.

all right thank you yeah i just wanted to thanks so much chair um i'm really excited about this business awesome we'd love to have you there yes um i know that there's a similar one in huntington so i'm really excited that we're gonna costa mesa is gonna have its very own it doesn't surprise me that this is happening at the lab for always forward thinking and creative spaces to bring retail to our um to our city um I appreciate the window because, yes, I was one of those people that had to just admire from a distance. So that's really great. Tell me a little bit about your employees. How do you like how many staff do you plan to have? You know, what kind of, you know, will it be labor supported employee base employees?

Yeah, I think we're going to try and figure out exactly how many we want at a time, but it'll be between five to seven part-time employees and at least two on-site at all times. One who's going to be kind of like in the retail area and one who's going to be managing the cat lounge at all times and introducing people as they walk through the vestibule, giving them, you know, the talk and just ensuring that all their questions are answered inside the cat lounge and ensuring that you know, all the kids are being good and, uh, just supervising at all times.

Yeah. Um, I, are you guys considering also private events at the location?

Yeah, yeah, we are.

Okay. Fantastic. Um, and then one last question I saw on your application that, you know, you're, you're partnered up with friends of Normie, but you are open to collaborating with Costa Mesa's animal shelter. Can, do you have any, any highlights to share on that regard?

We actually haven't spoken with them yet, but we're more than open to speaking with them and seeing what kinds of help they may need and how we can collaborate.

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Okay. All right. Please sit down and if you want to come back.

Thank you so much. We'd love to have all of you there, by the way.

I will now open the public comments. If you'd like to speak on this item, please come to either podium. And if you're participating by Zoom, use the raise hand option or join the meeting by phone. And if you'd like to speak, please press star nine.

GO AHEAD. MY NAME IS CHRIS BENNETT, DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR WITH LAB HOLDING. I WANT TO SAY THANK YOU FOR CONSIDERATION HERE, ASKING FOR YOUR SUPPORT OBVIOUSLY FOR THIS SHOP AND WE THANK STAFF FOR THEIR TIME IN THE STUDY OF THIS. We're really excited. This is not something that we have come to our door every day. And just as a user, I'll kind of give an example of I took my kids to Tokyo a couple years ago. And my daughter, the one thing that she wanted to do was go to a cat cafe. Of all the cultural things that we could happen, I'd never even heard about them. But to have one in Costa Mesa, I was like, oh man, perfect. So really appreciate your consideration and support of this. And just another comment, like we're seeing so many, I won't call them weird ideas, but like the people that are coming to us to open shops are just more and more unique. So I'm not surprised that the code and kind of the things that are listed from 30 years ago don't match. And I'm just letting you guys know we're going to see more and more of that. Hopefully we're not in front of you for every single shop that wants to come through, but it will continue to happen. So thank you for your support. Thank you.

Chairman Harlem and a member of the commissioners, good evening. My name is Shaheen Siddiqui with Lab Holding. I wanted to sincerely thank you for your time and all the great questions. I didn't think about any of that stuff. I just thought it was a cool idea. So I think, as Chris alluded to, our firm, we've been in customer for 32 years now. And it's called The Lab. It stands for The Little American Businesses. So when we started this business, my background is the action sports industry, which was... also in Costa Mesa. And there was this amazing thing about Costa Mesa that young entrepreneur businesses like to open their businesses here in Costa Mesa. And I'm a believer that Little American businesses are the backbone of our country. I really believe in that. I've dedicated my entire career to it. And I can sit here and tell you a lot of stories about when COVID happened. And as an example, literally 100% of our businesses got shut down because it was a mandate by the governor. We lost one tenant. They all came back. They all made up for the rent. And just an amazing story of the dedication of these young people that really take some risk and realize their dreams. And I honestly believe that's what America was built on. So I think with the environment today, I think we know how expensive things are and how much of a risk it is for many of these businesses. We have put hundreds of businesses in business, and we're really proud of that, of our record. So when we get a story like this, it's really expensive to, it's very risky as well to open a business like this. You know, we want to be the ones to bring them to Costa Mesa. We want to have them in our properties. And one of the things that I really implore you for is, as Chris alluded to, and we've had the opportunity to speak to Ms. Tai and your staff, and they've really been wonderful, and we're working as a team to try to sort of update some of the codes, because truly some of these codes were written back in the 70s or maybe 80s, and it's just a whole different world. We didn't have iPhones back then. May I continue? Yes, you've got another 20 seconds. Okay. And so I think it really would save time and money. And I know staff at the city is always busy and stressed out over, as Commissioner Zish alluded to, it's just a lot of work to come through these CUPs and it's expensive. And I agree. Thank you very much. In reference, four months is not that long, but quite honestly, it's a long time because as a landlord, it's four months of rent where you lose, or if we have the tenant pay, by the time they pay the four months just to get their CUP, they're chewing up a lot of their money. And by the way, it's 30% of the year. So I would really love to find a way to update some of these codes so that maybe they're minor issues conditional use permits so that your very qualified staff can make some of these decisions. Again, as Chris alluded to, we're getting a lot of unusual requests. It's not the old days where if you want to open a clothing store these days, you have to have a coffee shop. If you want to have a coffee shop, you got to sell something else other than coffee. And that's just the way the world is going. So I want to thank you and appreciate the opportunity to be here. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Anybody else in chambers wish to speak? All right, Anna, do we have anybody on Zoom?

No, we do not, Mr. Chairman.

Okay. I'm going to close the public comment portion of the public hearing. Commissioners, any further questions of staff? Commissioner Kleepak?

I just have a question. Are we able to consider a condition around age, or is that more of a business decision? We can? Mm-hmm.

Director Tai, do you want to opine on that?

Could I propose a minimum age of like six and under 12 must be accompanied by an adult, something like that?

Yeah, I would say generally any condition that the Planning Commission would consider should speak directly to a finding that is required to be met in order to support the application and should also tie, yeah, definitely tie directly to if it's general health, safety, and welfare, for example. I heard you say something about interaction with the animals and children. So you would tie it directly to a finding, and that is important. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay.

COMMISSIONER DICKSON?

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS?

YOU HAVE ANOTHER QUESTION OR YOU WANT TO MAKE A MOTION?

I WAS GOING TO MAKE A MOTION.

LET ME CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING THEN. NOW MAY I HAVE A MOTION?

SO AND OF COURSE I DON'T HAVE THE PROPER PAGE TURNED TO IT AS I GET READY TO MAKE MY MOTIONS. BUT I MOVE THAT WE HERE IT IS. I MOVE THAT THE PLANNING COMMISSION FIND THAT THE PROJECT EXEMPT FROM THE PROVISIONS OF THE CALIFORNIA ENVIRONMENTAL section 15301 existing facilities and that we approve conditional use permit PCUP25-0011 based on the findings of fact and subject conditions of approval with a modification to condition of approval number four to mimic the earliest opening and the latest opening of the lab. So I believe it's 10 p.m. is the latest. I'm not sure what the earliest is, but if 9 a.m. is okay with the applicant, Great. If there is a business that opens earlier at the lab, I suggest we make it those hours. And then as far as the condition of approval regarding age, I'm willing to entertain that. But I would think that just from my experience with Priceless Pets and with owning a million cats, I don't think they would let any kid in there unless they could demonstrate some sort of. But I'll entertain that. We can add a condition of approval regarding a minimum age of anybody under under six requires parental guardian or I would say nobody under six and under 12 requires a guardian. All right for the purposes of this motion.

I'll entertain that Should we check if the applicant is okay with that?

Let's see if we got a second second by vice-chair zik Okay LET ME TAKE A POINT OF PRIVILEGE. ASKING THE APPLICANT, DO YOU WANT TO COME BACK UP TO RESPOND TO THAT? SO THERE ARE TWO PROPOSED MODIFICATIONS TO THE CONDITIONS OF APPROVAL. ONE IS THE TIME, SO THE EARLIEST TIME THAT'S AVAILABLE FOR THE CAMP PROPERTY, WHICH I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE SPECIFIC TIME IS. Shaheen, do we have time?

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it depends on the uses. There are coffee houses and places that open up pretty early, like 8 o'clock or so. And if I may, I also would recommend, and if they're open, if they're interested to be open until 10 o'clock, this is probably the right time to ask for that so you don't have to come back. Right.

So I guess the question is, do you need an opening time of 8 o'clock or is 9 o'clock sufficient?

No, no, nine's good, yeah.

Okay, so 9 a.m. opening, 10 p.m. closing time. Yes. And then the second condition of approval is no children under the age of six, and if you're under 12, you require a parent or guardian. Is that right, Commissioner Kleepak? Yes. Okay.

I guess on the, yeah, with the kids, it's definitely something we are considering. We want to be mindful and that happens in our own home too. We understand, you know, when we get stressed when there's toddlers around our cats too. So, um, definitely something we want to be mindful of. I'm, we are planning to have lots of kind of hideout spots for the cats. So lots of places they can, you know, go up high and go escape to and everything. So if it is, and we'll also talk to any kids, no matter, even if we have an age minimum, making sure they are aware of behaviors to watch for and everything and remind them, you know, if the cats do get stressed, they're going to run away and they can't hang out with them. So it is something we would consider. I mean, I think we'd prefer to leave it a little bit open to see how it goes, but it's definitely something we'll monitor. We know these cats have all been in stressful situations and that's why You know, we're taking them in, so we don't want to do anything, you know, to compromise that either.

How about if it were just under 12 accompanied by an adult?

Yes, absolutely. I think that's great with us, yeah. Okay.

Thank you.

All right. So to the maker of the motion, is that okay?

Yes. So we'll amend that. Additional condition of approval to any children under the age of 12 should be accompanied by an adult.

Correct.

And then the opening hours are 9 a.m. to 10 p.m.

Advice chair? Yes. Okay, second. All right. Commissioner Dixon, you want to speak to your motion? Go ahead. You can sit down if you'd like.

Thank you so much.

I do. I think this is a great use. I'm very excited it's coming to Costa Mesa. There's a need for more interaction with adoptable pets. Anybody who knows anything about the cat situation and the dog situation, too, it's really dire issues. I would like to see a TNR program at Costa Mesa too as soon as possible. This is a very good use. It's a very imaginative use. I do greatly appreciate the Vice Chair and Commissioner Martinez walking through the different uses and the different ways we get to CUP when we do have an older land use matrix, but the way the staff picks and chooses from different uses to try to put together the best thing. And when this first came to me, I thought, a CUP was overkill, and sometimes a CUP can be overkill, and I think maybe an MCUP might have been better, but regardless, on this particular one, there were enough unicorn elements that I can see why it ended up in the CUP bucket, and so I'm comfortable with that. But it's a great use. I really sincerely appreciate it. I hope it's wildly successful. I encourage you to reach out to Priceless Pets and see if you guys have space in your facility If you could take some of their cats or kittens, they're constantly under pressure and they're, again, do not kill as well. So thank you very much. Enthusiastically supporting this.

All right, Vice Chair, would you like to speak to it?

Sure. I'm also enthusiastically supporting this application. My support was never in doubt. And like I said, if you were freaking out by all the questions, you didn't need to. And I do want to thank staff a great deal for this report and for helping illuminate the subject of CUPs. I think what you did was spot on with this application. I fully support what you did. Good luck with your business.

Any other commissioners? Commissioner Klepek.

Yeah, thank you so much for bringing this. I'm also going to enthusiastically support. I volunteer myself at Priceless Pets, and I'll just echo that the city is inundated with cats and kittens that need good homes, and there's just too few resources. So any opportunity for more adoption is absolutely welcome, and yeah, it would be great to see a TNR program in Costa Mesa. Thank you.

Commissioner Martinez.

Yes. So if it wasn't clear from my line of questioning, I don't think that this should have gone through the conditional use permit process. I think that this should have been a permitted use from the very beginning. Because now we've had to have this entire hearing. Now we've had all this time. You've spent the CUP fee. And we've done this process before with many other different types of unique commercial businesses. Last meeting, we had a dog daycare. That owner has been to this body three different times. We've had three different escape rooms that have had to come to Planning Commission. During my time here, we've had a microblading business. I'm sure there is any number of other unique business types that have come before us because they are not specifically listed in Table 1330, and I'm sure there will be many other future businesses that come before us because they are not listed in Table 1330. And I don't want to see that happen. I don't want to see the timeline extended further than it needs to be. I don't want our applicants to have to pay more than they have to in order to get business started in Costa Mesa. I want to be able to have our unique businesses here in Costa Mesa. I've heard of cat cafes before. I've heard of cat lounge slightly different terminology but but I've heard of this general business type and the fact that we've delayed this process I feel is not it's not reflecting well on on us so what I would like to do is I would like to make a substitute motion and see if it gets a second to I guess overturn the development services director of the development review committee's decision that this is not an applicable is not APPLICABLE USE IN THE LAND USE MATRIX AND FIND THAT IT IS SUBSTANTIALLY SIMILAR TO AN ESTABLISHMENT WHERE FOOD OR BEVERAGES ARE SOLD OR RETAIL GENERAL, FIND THAT THIS IS A PERMITTED USE UNDER TABLE 1330 AND IF POSSIBLE RETURN THE CUP FEE AND PROCESS THE APPLICATION AS A PERMITTED USE.

IS THERE A SECOND TO THAT MOTION? Do not see seconds.

No second. And that's very unfortunate because we're going to have a lot more applications like this. And I want to see business grow in Costa Mesa. I want businesses to be hindered so that we can get all of our unique businesses. Thank you.

Thank you. I WILL BE JOINING MY COLLEAGUES IN SUPPORTING THIS. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE WITH COMMISSIONER MARTINEZ ABOUT THE NEED TO TRY AND EXPEDITE THIS PROCESS AND SIMPLIFY IT. I THINK THE CIRCUMSTANCES HERE ARE A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT. I'M NOT AS, I WOULD SAY, I THINK THAT WAS AN AMBITIOUS EXPLANATION. AND THERE IS A REASON FOR CUPS. NEVERLESS, I THINK THIS IS A GREAT NEW USE. It comes as no surprise that this will be at the camp. I mean, this has been the kind of laboratory for great new businesses in Costa Mesa and Orange County, quite frankly. So with that, any other comments? Okay, I'll call for the question.

That motion carries 7-0.

Okay, that decision is final unless it's appealed to the City Council within seven days. Congratulations. We have no old business and I will wait a minute for staff and our consultant to get up here for our new business item. Do you guys need a... Let's take a three minute break. Everybody's... Okay, we are back. Anna, would you please read the title for new business item number one?

New business item number one, housing implementation, neighborhoods where we all belong, public engagement update.

Alright, miss McGill you have the floor Thank You chair and good evening Planning Commission on McGill advanced planning manager Tonight we're gonna be giving the same presentation that was given to the City Council about a week ago on the update to our neighborhoods where we all belong community visioning process update and With me tonight is Catherine Tang Saez and she is from due deck and then Taylor Funderburk and she is from Kearns and West and They are the consultants that are assisting us on this effort, and they're going to go ahead and tag team the presentation tonight, but we'll all be available for questions. We were the last item on the City Council presentation, and so because of that, we did a little bit of a quicker version of the presentation. So tonight, for the benefit of the Planning Commission and the public, we're going to do a little bit longer version of the presentation, hopefully be able to give you just a little bit more information. Nothing new in the presentation, just padding it out a little bit. So with that, I'm going to go ahead and hand it over to Catherine to start the presentation.

Thank you, Anna. Good evening, commissioners. My name is Kathy Tang-Size, and I'm the project manager with Dudek. We're the prime consultant helping the city with neighborhoods where we all belong. As Ana mentioned, I'm joined by my colleague Taylor Funderburk with Kearns and West who is helping to lead the community vision portion of this effort. We're here tonight to provide you with an update on our work so far. So neighborhoods where we all belong is a comprehensive effort led by the city of Costa Mesa to address housing in the community while at the same time complying with state law. It's enabled by two different things. First is the housing element. The state of California requires that every city have a housing element, which is one of many chapters of a city's general plan. It's the city's overarching comprehensive plan for the future. Per the state, the housing element needs to be updated every eight years, which is a cycle. We're currently in the sixth cycle, which covers the years 2021 to 2029. The housing element looks at housing conditions in the community, and then it establishes programs or strategies for how to address those conditions. In Costa Mesa, some of the conditions that have been identified are about affordability, about overcrowding, and disrepair of housing stock. The housing element identifies 47 different programs to address these conditions, but the primary program is about RENA. RHNA stands for the Regional Housing Needs Allocation. Essentially, it's the city's state-mandated fair share of new housing. And for Costa Mesa, that RHNA is 11,760 dwelling units for this cycle. The primary way to achieve this RHNA or accommodate for this RHNA is by identifying enough sites in the city and then updating their zoning to allow for future housing development to cover that RHNA. The sites that were selected for the RHNA were done so during the housing element process. And the rezoning, the updating of the zoning of those sites is what we're doing now. That said, the state requires that this program and all other programs in the housing element be implemented over time to comply with state law. For the city of Costa Mesa, the rezoning program in particular must be completed as soon as possible. The second is Measure K. Because of Measure Y from 2016, any major land use change or rezoning requires a vote of the people. So Measure K was passed by Costa Mesa voters in 2022. Measure K now allows the city to proceed with the rezoning of housing element sites. It also identifies other sites for rezoning, specifically in some commercial and industrial areas. And doing so is beneficial for a couple of reasons. It plans for housing, close to existing amenities and services, which helps to create more complete neighborhoods, and it keeps existing residential neighborhoods intact, lessening potential impacts on them. For this rezoning to occur, Measure K requires a community visioning process, so hence this effort, neighborhoods where we all belong. Because of those two reasons, Neighborhoods Where We All Belong focuses on implementing two big buckets of housing element programs. One is about housing development opportunities. This includes the rezoning of Measure K sites, which again are housing element sites. Those are required for rezoning to comply with state law, and non-housing element sites, which are additional sites that have been identified for rezoning. And by rezoning, this means that the sites today allow for commercial or industrial, but in the future we'll be giving the zoning flexibility to also allow for residential. The second involves a number of zoning code amendments to comply with state law. This includes updating definitions, allowances, and processes to make it more straightforward to review, to approve, and to develop housing in the city. And the most visible part of this will be what's called objective design standards, which will apply to multifamily housing and mixed use developments in the city. Essentially, these are new, simple, easy design oriented regulations to ensure that new housing is designed and developed in a way that is consistent with the city and the community's vision. And the key across all of our work is community input. So with that, I'll hand it off to Taylor.

Thank you, Kathy. As Kathy mentioned, engagement for the effort has been designed to take place over three rounds, each building off the other. As the measure case sites have already been decided, each round of outreach will be tied into a crucial decision-making step of the planning process, where the community's input can help inform and make the most impact. It's important that all activities are grounded in being inclusive, accessible, and transparent. This was done by creating multiple opportunities for participation across a broad spectrum of the community. What were these opportunities? Engagement was designed to be multi-layered, offering opportunities at different locations and formats, so the city and project team could hear from a variety of local voices. For round one, this meant five buckets. A kickoff citywide open house, community workshops, focused discussions, pop-up events, and an online survey. Each activity was facilitated in both English and Spanish, and participants expressed an appreciation for the bilingual approach. Ultimately, these activities offered diverse opportunities and allowed participants to show up in a format that was most comfortable for them. Central to the engagement process is how the word gets out to inform and invite community members to participate, as well as offer multiple ways for people to choose to engage. A variety of notification methods were implemented to share information about the effort and provide invitations to each of the activities. Methods included city press release, snapshots and announcements, social media, direct mailers, emails, and a dedicated project website to provide centralized information. Each resident could decide in which way they want to interact with the effort and provide their insights. To begin the process, a citywide open house was hosted, open to all residents and not location specific. Participants were provided with an opening video, setting the stage with an overview of the effort, followed by open house exhibits and vision input activities. Informational boards reiterated the opening video and provided a map of the Measure K sites. Input activities focused on envisioning a good neighborhood through open comment and prioritization activities. All materials were bilingual and staff was available to provide interpretation support. Over 77 community members participated, providing over 145 written comments. We hosted three place-based workshops in August and September, identified by the location of Measure K sites along Harbor and Newport Boulevard, Westside, and North Coast to Mesa Sobeca. The information of the community workshops was aligned with what was shared at the open house. However, each workshop had a neighborhood-specific activity or activities. This included an area mapping activity for the Newport Harbor Boulevard, where participants could identify the places they visited frequently. And this was so successful, we replicated it for other workshops as well. In the west side, participants joined on a walking tour of Placentia and 19th. Discussion focused on developments on the route, asking participants to consider what works and what could be improved for future developments. In North Coast Mason Sobeka Workshop, the team hosted a focused discussion breakout as an aspect that was focused on designing good neighborhoods, excuse me. Between all three events, 129 community members participated, identifying over 130 valuable places in Costa Mesa and over 290 insights in future housing. In September and October, we hosted three in-person focus discussions grouped by those neighborhood areas. In alignment with round one, these discussions were focused on community visioning. Participants provided insight on what makes Costa Mesa special, how to integrate housing into the identified sites, and the vision for the future of housing. In tandem, the city hosted pop-up events around the city. At each pop-up, participants were asked to share their priorities for good residential development, designing for new multi-story housing, and vision for future housing. The activity met people where they were in their everyday lives in Costa Mesa. To conclude round one outreach, an online survey was launched on the Costa Mesa neighborhood's website. We received over 250 responses in both English and Spanish in just a two week period, of which 82% of the respondents identified as living and working in Costa Mesa. The short survey was designed to mirror the other input events for those who were unable to join in person or had more to add. Overall, through round one, over 550 community members participated, providing over 1,600 insights into the future of housing. All responses via maps, worksheets, walking tour, and prioritization dots were reviewed and summarized into key themes for envisioning a good neighborhood. We heard from so many voices and different perspectives representing residents from across Costa Mesa. Participants noted that Costa Mesa is eclectic with unique and culturally rich neighborhoods and communities. We heard from a lot of participants that future development and housing should prioritize diverse, affordable, and flexible housing for families, as well as opportunities to own in Costa Mesa as opposed to just rent. Multimodal transportation, which highlighted walkability, as well as making streets safer and more attractive, especially where new housing is planned. That housing alone is not sufficient. It needs to be paired with gathering spaces for the community, proximity to everyday activities, and new parks, open spaces, and greenery. And thoughtful housing design will be key when integrating into existing commercial and industrial areas. Participants expressed interest in the effort and future outcomes with an emphasis on continued transparency, shared information, and encouragement to stay aligned with Costa Mesa values. The full outreach summary and detailed appendix are being finalized and will be shared on the project website soon. An email notice will be sent to everyone on the interest list. I'll pass it back to Kathy for next steps.

Thank you, Taylor. Before we go on to next steps, I just want to take another quick opportunity to thank the entire Costa Mesa community for engaging with us over the summer. We had the privilege of talking with so many folks, longtime residents, new ones, property owners, developers, and even little kids, which was really fun. We appreciate the council members and the commissioners who came out and participated as well. We had maps and pins and sticky notes. We walked together, we explored, and we engaged in productive discourse. And if you were on our walking tour, we even had bubbles too. It was all in good natured spirit to together envision the future of new good neighborhoods in Costa Mesa. So thank you. In terms of next steps, the work completed today concludes round one of three of our work. So now we'll use what we learned from the community to inform the technical work, which is preparing drafts of regulations for new residential and mixed-use housing. That means devising the appropriate standards for building design, for site design, open space and parking, so that new housing projects in the city are done well and in line with the community's vision. And we've begun our work on both the rezoning and the zoning code amendments. We've identified a strategy to address the city's complex web of urban plans and overlays and specific plans in a way that provides a more clear, simpler, more flexible way of developing housing. And we'll have drafts of all of that work in round two to share with the community. We've also begun the work necessary for CEQA to analyze the zoning updates and provide a streamlined pathway for future reviews and approvals of projects that will come online in the future. So you'll be seeing an announcement of that in the coming week. To close, our timeline is shown here on the screen. It shows that we're now a third of the way into the effort. You'll hear from us again in round two. Early next year, we'll share the drafts of the work. And then again in round three, sometime in the summer, we'll share near final versions of the work. That concludes our presentation, but we're happy for discussion. Thank you.

Thank you. Commissioners, any questions of staff? Commissioner Martinez?

Thank you. So I was at the city council meeting last week. So thank you again for the presentation. I wanted to first ask about the timeline. You just ended on it. Because I heard things at the city council meeting about an accelerated timeline. And I am particularly interested in that. So is there more information?

The short answer is no, there's not more information. We are continuing to move forward on the timeline that we had presented to the City Council. We've always told the City Council that if we can find ways to expedite this process, to bring it back quicker, to get to HCD certification faster, we will continue to look and explore ways to do that. We'll also continue to look at state legislation to see if there's any opportunities there. AND IF WE DO FIND ANY OPPORTUNITIES WE'LL CONTINUE TO REPORT BACK TO THE PLANNING COMMISSION AND CITY COUNCIL ON THOSE POTENTIAL OPPORTUNITIES.

BECAUSE THE INSINUATION WAS THAT HCD WOULD REALLY LIKE A FASTER TIMELINE. would really like a faster timeline and I'm sure the city council would as well because we are in a housing crisis. On the side as well we're talking and just generally about our rezoning effort and I wanted to ask If right now I know we're in early stages but are we considering a rezoning like of our base ordinance or implementing overlays on to for example our housing element area to reach those housing element goals.

I'm going to start on that and then I'll hand it over to Kathy if she wants to add. It's a very good question, and it's a little bit of a complex one. So staff are planning to return to the Planning Commission on December 8th for a study session. And at this time, we intend to fully unveil what the various strategies are going to be to rezone. We have a lot of, as you said, urban plans, overlays, and our goal is to try to make it a little bit more simplified. and take out some of the redundancy of all of those different documents. So this is a little bit of a preview, and Kathy, feel free to add to that. But the intent is that we come back with some good illustrations to kind of help show how all of these pieces will work together.

Yeah, echo what Ana says. I'm literally in the midst of preparing that presentation for council, and we're going to use some hopefully very clear visuals to help you understand. I keep calling it a complex web, and it really is. There's just so many different pathways and zoning frameworks in the city today, and our goal has always been to simplify that for the city as part of this effort. So stay tuned. We'll come back with an answer for that.

Yeah, the reason I ask is because specifically on overlays for a housing element area is because of what I believe is an appellate court case in the South Bay that said no more overlays. That doesn't count anymore. So I want to make sure that we're aware of that and its applicability to Costa Mesa. And then finally I'll just end with a comment very appreciative of this and Are we planning on more pop-up style events in the future at places that aren't just parks and coffee shops?

Yeah, absolutely we can definitely take that into consideration any other suggestions you have Obviously our intent is to be where the community is if you have other ways that you think might work better. We're all ears on

Wonderful, I know Snoopy House is just setting up, is already being set up outside, so hopefully we can be there as well. Thank you.

Any other questions, Vice Chair Zick?

I've got a couple. I'd first like to thank Kathy and Taylor for your presentations. It goes without saying that RHNA wasn't your idea. Measure K wasn't your idea. You're trying to form from those directives a plan. So anything that I might say that would sound critical is not critical of your professional work. Kathy, thank you for clarifying something that was not clear in my mind. It was made clear in after a series of questions in our last meeting that the measure K area Includes sites that were not housing element sites But that your effort towards rezoning is for the totality of sites but one of the questions I've got and maybe it's more for for Anna, but I In the staff, well, let me say this too. I think the focus of your presentation tonight or your main intent is to give us an update on the community outreach, not so much what your strategy is to meet Rena or not meet Rena, et cetera, et cetera, but I've still got a couple questions about that. And on page one of your staff report, you identify, as you have previously, that the totality of housing units in the housing element is 17,042. And based on what I'd understood to be your answer to a question I had last meeting, which was if we plan for 11,760 and zero units get built by 2029, Do we get to give everybody high fives and say, good job, and then go back to our lives? And you essentially said no. What the state would do is say, well, you didn't get any of your 11,760 in the last cycle, so in the seventh cycle, starting with that 11,760, we still expect you to get, and oh, by the way, here's a new allocation of some number potentially. In other words, it never goes away. Did I understand that correctly? will always be on the hook for the 11760.

Well, so the city's role and due diligence is to plan for the ability for that number of units, right? To make the rezones or the general plan amendments that are needed in order to accommodate that. If, let's say, this re-encyclical, there's no housing built, and we might have talked about this at the last planning commission meeting that I was at, which I think was two meetings ago. Okay. Is that HCD would continue to push the city to look at alternative strategies?

To meet the 11760.

Yep, to encourage housing and to encourage the development more than just, let's say, rezoning or the programs that are out.

Build 11760.

Yeah, the state's goal is ultimately to build what they think the demand is, but our due diligence is to plan for it.

And if that doesn't encourage housing then we have to look back at those strategies and find other ways to encourage and accommodate the housing Correct, and I said when you had told me that and use that exact same word I said I love encouragement, but are we on the hook for the 11?

760 and the answer I think Was yes Yeah, our our due diligence is to accommodate that housing and to continue encouraged to build it when you say are we on the hook and I think what you're referring to, are there any potential penalties that could come to the city? And I just don't know that we have a clear answer to that yet. So some of that comes out obviously in legal litigation. We know that the city could potentially face penalties if we don't do this work quickly enough.

Okay, so with that back and forth as a backdrop, when you say you have a plan for 17,042 units, And if the consultants in the city go through this elaborate process and rezone all the land that's involved to the densities that are involved so that the Excel spreadsheet totals still 17,042. It's conceivable. that we could actually build 17,042 units well above, 45% above what the RENA allocation is and create 45% greater impact on the city than what RENA is already going to do, correct? So my question is why would we rezone one square foot more than 11,760? And I've heard the idea of buffer I get buffer so I'm not going to rezone the buffer Mulligan rezone 11 760 if we don't get that the city come there the state comes back and encourages us Great. Oh, here's another site. We can rezone Well, here's another site. We can reason why would we do all that now?

the state requires us to accommodate the arena as well as the buffer and They require a buffer also.

Yes, that's correct.

To identify sites that can accommodate the buffer. Of 45%? Yep.

Or is that our choice?

Vice Chair Zick, may I? Please. 17,042 units is the number lifted directly from the housing element. So yes, to Planning Manager McGill's answer, the state does require us to accommodate the arena of 11,760 plus the buffer for a total of 17,042. So that number wasn't voluntary. It's straight from the housing element.

No, I understand it's right from the housing element. OK. I won't belabor that point, but you'll probably hear it again some of the time. So I'm a little curious about what you had hoped. OK, let me back up. So Measure K dictated and mandated this community visioning input thing, right? So we know we're gonna have 11,760 actually, 45% higher than that, can get around it, 60 units per acre on this site, 90 on this, 40 on that, we have all that laid out. What's to be visioned at that point? Like what color these things would be? What the fenestrations might look like? At that point, I know how high it is. I know how impactful it's going to be. What's their left division?

Commissioner, good question. So you're right that there are certain things that we are mandated by the state to accommodate. So densities and by translation height as well. As what is identified in the housing element, we have to write the regulations to accommodate that. But there are other things that are still in the city's control that we are asking for the community's input. So things like setbacks, how much a building should be far away from the street or from an adjacent property, for example. That is something the city can control. Another one is the provisions for parking, the provisions for open space, the kinds of features that would be required or encouraged to be accommodated in these new housing projects. One of the things that we heard from the community is that This effort shouldn't just be about housing, but it's about communities. So what else in addition to housing can we address in this effort so that we have more complete communities and folks have somewhere to walk to or are able to go to work or catch the bus? So there's many other factors involved in just housing. And in addition to that, we're also looking at what I said earlier with the objective design standards. So, yes, fenestration, facade. We could go as detailed or as not into sort of design elements that go into designing projects. And that's something that we're going to bring back to the community based on what we heard to see if that's in line. with what they want. So outside of height, outside of density, there are many things that we've been asking of the community to help us envision.

Okay, and I appreciate that answer. So help me understand a couple of things. So if we have setbacks, as an example, under our control, the greater setback that we want, the higher the building would have to be in order to provide the number of units.

Not necessarily. No, setbacks, the way we're trying to address them is, what does that do to the street, the ground floor? So a setback on Harbor might be a lot different than on 19th. So those are the conditions that we're looking at.

So we have control over parking. That comes a little bit as news to me. To a certain extent. Yeah, square that circle with AB 2097. How in the world do we have control over parking? How would I have it? Other people don't care about parking. I care a lot about it. How would I have control over it?

Correct. So we are addressing parking to a certain extent. So there are now at least one or two, maybe more, state bills that have come down that... allow an applicant to bypass local regulations for minimum required parking. That's usually tied to say transit being near transit or something. That doesn't mean that all of the sites that we're looking at meet that definition or meet that criteria so regardless of state exemption or state preemption rather The city it would it would benefit the city to have local regulations still in place for when those Scenarios do not pan out so that projects can accommodate what the city determines to be the appropriate number of parking but To that extent, the housing element sites, those we would need to be in accordance with HCD guidelines. So to the extent that we can address that, we'll still need to be within HCD guidelines.

Okay. Thank you for those clarifications. what is page fifty one of our presentation it's uh... this uh... slide here the uh... bottom bullet under number one says uh... prioritize housing near jobs we kind of have already identified the sites no not kind of we have we've already identified the densities Tell me how we're prioritizing housing near jobs, or is that more of an after the fact that that's what all these housing opportunity sites and Measure K sites did? I mean, I look at the map. I don't see that we put housing by jobs. I see we put housing wherever we could shoehorn it in.

So our team was not here when Measure K was drafted and the housing element was drafted and both were passed. But that is a... That is a goal that was set forth by Measure K when the ballot went to Costa Mesa voters. And I would argue that it's true that the locations of the sites that were designated as for Measure K do prioritize housing near jobs and amenities. It's predominantly in existing commercial and some industrial areas. That's where people work. That's where people go for shopping, for services. So I would argue that that goal still remains. Okay.

I'll accept that answer. In the number of people that participated, and this is a minor question, but where you indicated 545 participants, is that unique people? Or you counted up all the people that attended at the various sessions, and if the same person showed up 10 times, there are 10 of that number?

It's correct. It's not unique individual numbers, but it's a round number. Sure. Yeah. Okay. There are some that did not sign in.

Got it. And then you indicated 342 online Um, survey responses. Did you summarize the, do you have a data analysis that I'm not asking for tonight, but is that something you actually did and develop? Okay. Yeah, definitely. And is that this information where you said what you heard from the community, is that the stuff that came out of the survey or came out of the on location sessions?

Everything. So we compiled all the responses written via the comment cards, the walking tour worksheets, the design worksheets, all the prioritization dots. and different activities and then went through an analysis process to determine the key themes. So the slide in this presentation is comprehensive of all those themes and the outreach summary that's going to be coming soon will have the comprehensive key themes and then also key themes by activity. So like survey data, you'll be able to see the key themes and the data points from that survey synthesized and there'll also be an appendix that shows all of the raw data. So if you want to go through and dive through point by point, you're welcome to do so.

And then when you use the term affordable housing in your presentation, when you use that term, do you mean the deed-restricted taxpayer subsidized housing, or do you mean less costly housing? Do you mean affordable as the magic social engineering term, or the term that we all kind of grew up before that came into it?

That word, I think, is used synonymously sort of both ways. But when folks talk to us, I think at the end of the day, what they want is just less costly housing.

Less costly. OK. I would just encourage you to come up with two different terms. Since we have an inclusionary housing ordinance, we have FDC looking at 40% of the magic affordable housing, not less costly housing. I think it would help with the clarity of the communication. And then you have this presentation slide that at the bottom said, you're fostering hope for the future. Could you just elaborate on what in the world that what that means. I hopefully people weren't despaired too much, but what does this hope you're trying to foster?

No, no. Thank you for the question and I'll let Taylor answer as well. We inserted that because we want this to be a positive experience. We understand that, um, conditions can be grim for some. I mean the three conditions that we mentioned that were identified in the housing element are affordability, overcrowding and disrepair. And there's a good number of Costa Mesa residents that are in that picture. And that's not, I wouldn't say that that's the best. So one of our goals of this effort was to make it a positive experience and for allowing folks to engage with us so that we have hope for the future, that the city is putting forth this effort and doing um a good faith effort to help its residents both today and tomorrow so uh hoping for the future is that it's better at least even a slightest bit than what it is today for many folks living in the city kathy thank you that's all i've got okay any other comments questions of staff uh commissioner dixon thank you so much um i just wanted to follow up on the the responses and uh i see that getting the word out which is page 54

And we got the postcard, which is great, the social media views. But what's troubling is we have 2,700 unique views of the project website and 206 unique sign-ups and 545 participants. And I appreciate the foster hope and the positive experience. But right now, we're dealing with a minuscule percentage of the people who live here are going to have that positive experience. And so I know it's an old, tired thing that I say all the time, but the city was superhuman in their outreach for Measure K. But somehow, we can't seem to get a big response to this. It's even less than Fairview Developmental Center, and it arguably affects a far larger percentage of the city. So I don't want to keep trotting down this pathway of we're doing things that the city wants and the city agrees with and we're helping all the city and we're doing all this stuff for the city when the city has no idea what's going on. So I don't know if it's the messaging. I don't know if you need to send out postcards that say, hey, Harbor Boulevard's going to change materially. I don't know if that's what you need to do, but 545, not enough. 206 unique sign-ups, not enough. There's no anything here except for a good effort. I get it. It's hard to do this. Maybe the postcard was something they just threw away and it wasn't alarming enough or it wasn't enduring enough or it wasn't giving them enough hope or something. I'm not trying to be facetious here, but we're moving fast. And I listened to the entire city council meeting. And I listened to all the comments from the council members. And I share it. Mayor Stevens comments in a lot of ways. I don't know why we don't have more data here about what people said or what they're, you know, et cetera. But, you know, since the beginning of my term on the Planning Commission, I've been talking about more public outreach or figuring out how to do it. And again, I saw Super City about Measure K. You could not turn over without a city video or former Chairman de Aracal or whoever, just singing the praises of Measure K. Well, if we need to do that for this, maybe there's not a budget. I don't know. But there's not anywhere near the engagement we need to be getting on this. The numbers are just saying it. It's not my opinion. It's not a criticism. You guys are making a great effort. The postcards are fantastic. I've been advocating for that for a long time. Maybe there needs to be more messaging like neighborhoods where we all belong. I'd probably throw that away if I wasn't involved in land use. So just something to just have some feedback on that particular thing, because if we're accelerating the timeline, we're just doubling down on an uninformed public. And I think that's a bad thing. So that's my my general comment on this effort. And I appreciate everything you guys are doing in the report tonight. Thank you.

Sure.

Yes, Mr. Chair.

You know, I wanted to comment on Mr. Dickson's comments. I observed the same thing about the tremendous effort, and it isn't for lack of trying, to get the community involved and engaged. I thought he was going to use an old adage that I wrote down on here. You know, you can lead a horse to water. You can't make him drink. And that's kind of what you've tried to do here. Why aren't people participating? I don't know. You probably need psychologists and sociologists to figure that out. Part of it could be they don't really know what's going on. I mean, they don't really understand the impact. If you sent out graphics showing Harbor Boulevard and seven-story towers all the way up and down Harbor Boulevard and told them, this is what's going on, if you have an opinion, we'd be interested. You might give more opinions. When it's all nuanced communication, you know, hope and revitalize, and I'm apple pie, and nobody's against that stuff. You won't get anybody's attention. They'll assume you're doing a bunch of good stuff. And you're doing what you have to do, what you've been directed to do, and I get that. But, Commissioner Dixon, if you got 110,000 people to show up and provide input I think the response to that input would be, wow, that was nice. Thanks for telling us, but sorry, we can't limit the height. Well, that was some good comments, too. Thank you. No, can't change density. Got to get these numbers. Yeah, more ownership would be nice, but no, apartments are what the developers want to build. Thanks for coming out, though. Appreciate that. Oh, before you leave. Pick a shade of beige you want these things painted. Really could use your input. I think that's why you're not getting community input. What can they change materially? Setback? Nah. Not really, they're not gonna show up to change setback. Parking, you already know parking's a disaster, and the people that are concerned about that are told, you heard about AB 27, 2097, right? So just go back, and if you have a problem, maybe apply for residential permit parking. Or bike, you know, that's a better alternative for you. That's what they'll hear Open space we're woefully short of open space and park space in the city and people come and they talk about it We're not doing anything about it, but thanks for giving us your input So Commissioner Dixon, I think that might be some of the reason why people aren't showing up. It's because the inputs that they're given are Aren't, heck, even the city appealed, a formal appeal, authorized by city council, this reallocation. You're probably aware that we appealed it. You're probably aware that the number that we said it ought to be was half of what the state gave us, or SCAG. They don't even listen to staff. You think you're going to listen to residents? That's why they're not showing up. OK, I'm off the soapbox.

Okay, I just have a couple questions if nobody else does. Can we pull up the slide? I think it's number 12. It's the very last one, what we heard. So we have six themes here based on the input that you did get from the people who showed up. And my question is very kind of a practical one. I'm assuming these themes are intended to inform the actual development of either objective design standards or the zoning code amendments or the map in particular. If that assumption is wrong, tell me. But I think the broad question is, how is this going to be translated into the final product? Can you give us an example or two and pick any one of these themes as a basis for that?

Yes, commissioner. So, uh, two, two answers. One is, um, to some extent, no, not everything that we heard will be directly translated into the work that we're doing. So for example, folks, the second bullet point folks really want better transportation options in the city. They want safer streets. And that's something that this effort just isn't touching. We're not addressing the public right of way. Um, we're only addressing private property for, for development of housing. The second part answer is yes. So for those items that can be easily translated into the regulations that we will be drafting for mixed use and residential development, one example being, for example, public spaces. Or open spaces one of the things that we heard time and time again from the public was that some of the new? Developments that they're seeing so for example in the west side. Just don't have Open space for families and as a result because they don't have open space They're not catering towards the kinds of folks that need that housing so families with kids for example and So, one of the things that we'll be looking at directly is how much and how do we require the right amount or the appropriate amount of open space, whether that's private open space per dwelling unit or common open space that's shared by a development. Another one was around eclectic character. So we heard from a lot of folks that Costa Mesa is not the same across the board. What you see and feel in North Costa Mesa is vastly different from what you see and feel in the west side, for example. How can we keep that eclecticism alive? One of the ways that we can do that is addressing the permitted uses in these housing projects. So again, it won't just be housing. Some of them will be allowed to be mixed use. So of the non-residential uses that will be allowed, we want to make sure to allow for enough flexibility so we can have things like cat lounges and whatnot, you know, nearby or included in housing projects to keep that eclecticism alive. um... affordable housing uh... uh... vice chair you asked what that definition is in general we heard folks that they just want housing to be less expensive and we get that so uh... how can we write the regulations to allow for a variety of housing types right the more stock the more supply there is of a variety of kinds that will help in general to bring down prices and making sure that they're responsive to the types of folks that are looking for housing in Costa Mesa. So it may not seem apparent, a one for one translation here on the screen, but definitely know that that work is happening in the background and we'll come back in round two to share that information with the public.

Okay. No, I appreciate that answer, and I appreciate the specifics as well. On the open space, you know, it's an interesting dilemma in that obviously everybody wants more open space. Nobody says we have too much. Yet, in order to have more open space, especially ground-level open space, and to meet the – HOUSING GOALS THAT WE HAVE, THAT'S NECESSARILY GOING TO REQUIRE A HIGHER DENSITY. I HATE USING THE WORD, BUT IT'S APPROPRIATE HERE, A HIGHER DENSITY PRODUCT. SO THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME TRADE-OFFS, AND I ONLY BRING THAT UP BECAUSE I THINK THAT NEEDS TO BE COMMUNICATED TO PEOPLE IN THE CONVERSATION. SO THEY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, IF WE WANT OPEN SPACE, GREAT, BY ALL MEANS, BUT THAT IS GOING TO CHANGE THE NATURE OF THE MASSING FOR HOUSING DEVELOPMENT, AND MAYBE THAT CAN BE MANAGED IN A WAY WITH OUR DESIGN STANDARDS, BUT THERE ARE GOING TO BE KIND OF CONFLICTING IDEAS ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE WANT AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE SOME POLICY DECISIONS ABOUT THAT. The only other thing I want to add tonight is that and I'm glad you mentioned what the next round looks like you're going to come back to us with some strategies or ideas for strategies. My recommendation is to think in terms of the applicant. what is it that they need to see in our codes, in our design standards? And I don't know if you've talked with the development community yet in very great detail, but that input I think is essential because we can have a great code that the city can process, but if the applicants can't make their way through it, then that's gonna have a tremendous impact on us actually getting the results that we want. Okay, any other comments or questions?

Yeah.

Go ahead Commissioner Andrade.

Thank you so much for the great overview and highlight that you shared. I can only imagine how challenging it is to get you know as we were sharing the opportunities to get people's eyes on this project on this opportunity because it is a life changing opportunity for our city for as you're saying for the future. But I agree that maybe some of the communication can be a little more direct. Right. And just it's marketing one on one. Right. If if we come up with our own terms that only we understand as our internal lingo and what is it Kosa Mesa better streets better neighborhoods sounds very generic. But I agree I think someone suggested Harbor Boulevard is going to change and we want your input like very direct to the point that surely will catch folks' attention. I actually have some of the parents in my daughter's school's PTA. I mentioned to them, and this is a fairly informed, what I considered a fairly informed person. I was like, oh yeah, next thing that we're working on is rezoning. He was like, wait, what does that mean? He had no idea. And he was, again, mildly engaged with the organization and was actually thinking of creating sort of an organic Costa Mesa 101 just community events in his home because that's how curious and he wants to be able to get more folks informed so I don't know if there I can definitely lean into opportunities like that and so maybe that could be an opportunity for us as a commission as we're highly interested is maybe set up private sessions where we can I don't know invite some of you I don't know how the legality of what that would work in but just creating like private cafes at people's you know locations or businesses to get more engagement. And then finally. Very similarly as you're outlining these affordable housing options variety of development types. What does open space look like within these developments because they will be high density. I'm sure there's an opportunity to have some lessons learned for what's happening in the seizure strong project in Santa Ana. And with Bristol related pictures were just released on what it's going to look like. And based on what you described it seems to describe it very similarly. So just an opportunity to learn from our neighboring city who's going through some big projects similar to ours. That's all. Thank you.

Commissioner Dixon.

just a quick follow-up and again, I appreciate the tasks you were given to begin with was not an easy one and Hopefully we can focus especially if we're contemplating an accelerated thing But if you look at I think we by focus, I mean if you look at slide 55 or page 55 One of the boards was mobility and then another one you can see on their types of housing all the dots are on single-family residents that's not happening in this effort and It's just not. So I think we need to be very straight with the public about what this is. And it is not single family housing. It is not, and I really appreciate that comment, it is not mobility in the public sphere. And so I think you probably needed to have that really wide net at the beginning of this process to kind of focus it down. But we're now at the brass tacks time. And so I think Measure K was wildly successful from a public perception because the city said, every 12 seconds, you're going to have cheaper housing. And people loved it. And they voted for it. And if they were as focused, if the city were as focused in its messaging on, There's a lot more housing coming. It's going to come to Harbor. It's going to come to Newport. It's going to look like this, which is not eclectic, unless you guys raise your voices and start talking about eclectic. Because if you look at some of the visioning boards, because I went to, there's a lot of the modern housing which all looks the same. And what's so great about Costa Mesa is we're not Irvine. We're not Huntington Beach. We're not Fountain Valley. We're Costa Mesa. And so if we have a corridor of beige, Vice Chair Zick, that's not eclectic. So I think we just really need to tell the public, this is what we're doing. We're determining what your city is going to possibly look like in five to 10 years and be much more explicit about it. So that's my, because on your prong of the things of what we heard, one of those bullet points was transparency. So I appreciate everything you guys have done. I think we can really focus and get some good efforts out there to really inform about what's happening and get some better feedback. Thank you.

okay if there are no further comments i'm gonna open uh public comments sorry just one quick note um just for clarity i think i was at this session where slide 55 that we're looking at and the question up top is the types of housing that you have lived in so it's asking participants where have you lived in and so it just so happened that at that event the majority of people lived in single in single-family homes. So I think that's just one, just for just some context.

But I appreciate that, but that shows that most of the people who are at these things were homeowners and not the people who would benefit. Correct.

And yet the top thing was affordable housing options in a variety of development types. I do agree with your comment, Commissioner, regarding the variety of what kind of developments do come up. I know that I've spoken up at the, when we see these live, work, home projects, they all do look the same. And that was some suggestions at the time in the most recent application say, asking that exactly, asking the developer actually, do you have other templates to reference because all the projects do look the same. So encouraging that variety would definitely be welcome to keep that unique aspect.

Commissioner, if I may, to respond to that. You're right. The question for that activity at the open house, the question was, what types of housing have you lived in? The purpose was not to try to solicit feedback for folks. to tell us what kind of housing should be in Costa Mesa, it was more sort of an icebreaker. And we did this on purpose because we wanted folks to have a discussion with us and to recognize and see that there are many other kinds of housing other than the single family house. And for an effort like this to work, we need to consider all types of housing. to be able to allow for that flexibility, to be able to accommodate all types of demographic, to be able to just provide many types to address affordability. So that was a very, I would think, successful station that we had where we had folks like, oh, I didn't know that this was the kind of housing we had. senior housing on the board, we had live work, we had all these other kinds. And it was a good icebreaker. Again, not to ask folks what kind of housing should be in Costa Mesa, just to sort of break the ice and have folks talking about all the types of housing. And Taylor's going to share some of the stats that we got from that station.

Just to tag onto that, and you're not seeing a second board that has the additional six options on it. But I mean, it's understandable that single family home was a popular, obviously, data point for people. But in close proximity to that was apartments and condominiums between the heights of one and four floors, and then five to seven floors being pretty much close in the amount of data responses we received. So pretty mixed bag of people lived experience, whether they started in one place and in a different type of housing, but just really interesting to see. The image shows single family, but that apartments was a really common response as well.

All right, thank you. Now I'm going to open public comments. If anybody in chambers would like to come and speak, please come to either lectern. And if you're on Zoom, use the raise hand option. If you're joining the meeting on your phone and would like to speak, please press star nine. You guys all social ecology students?

Oh, no, I'm just a resident of Costa Mesa.

Okay.

Hello, my name's Andrew Kenny. I've listened to some of these online, but I've never been to one in person, I don't think, but I heard about this one tonight, so I wanted to show up. I've been to, I think, almost every single one of these before. I'm pretty much the youngest one that isn't someone's literal child every single time, and I just wanted to comment on a couple of things. I don't really know, the super formal protocol for everything. But I wanted to throw my hat in the ring because I'm here. I experienced this. I spent a lot of my free time reading about housing, talking to people who work in urban development, urban planning, because I just think it's super interesting and super important. I think a lot of what they're proposing is really good from everything I've read, understood. I support pretty much all of it. Kind of on the point of outreach, at least for me, I heard about it initially through a coworker who mentioned it. I went out because I am obsessed with housing and thought it sounded really fun, and then it was for me. I love learning about zoning, building codes, all that kind of stuff. Although from talking to everybody I know in urban planning, urban development, public works, et cetera, To my understanding, it's a famously unsexy topic, so to speak, that is not very fun or appealing to talk about. So I think the balance of transparency and the technical information and also keeping an informed public is a really hard thing to balance. I talk the heads off of my friends, my partner's back there, and she always rolls her eyes when I talk about zoning for the 400th time to a new group of people. So I think that's like something that I empathize with. Another thing I think about sometimes is like the ability for things to move through processes politically in a sense, which is like to say, for example, there's California high speed rail that's being built in an area with really low ridership because to my understanding it's trying to comply with some sort of Emissions Regulations Act or something of that nature, and that's kind of where they can build it. Politically, it's going to be really hard to run on that because it's going to have low ridership. And I think similarly, but I think a lot of people will pay attention to it once things happen, be it getting built, not getting built. So even though I, as someone who understands and gets these concerns, and I'm kind of biased in favor of supporting all of these initiatives and stuff, I think like even though there's not a super strong representation of people that once changes start happening, which will be mostly beneficial to people in my belief, that will probably, a lot of people will start to say something. And I understand the concern naturally for like, oh, getting more people to weigh in additionally, like beforehand, but sort of giving people, I think that it's difficult to balance, for example, because like, again, I'm like the youngest one that shows up. I have a different interest because I have more of a vested interest in the future of the place that I'm living in than somebody who is maybe two or three times my age. And things like that, I think, are, I guess to say, I think it's really, really important to get people's opinions on things. But is that my cue to go and leave?

I'll give you a few more seconds. All right, cool. I'm going to invite you back here because we expect to see you next month.

All right, sounds great. I love it. And I was just going to say, yeah, can just get my train of thought for a moment right right so uh basically i think that uh it's really really hard to get people like my age i talk to a lot of people my age and younger about these things and admittedly like you know it's filtered through my enthusiasm optimism and support for everything but they all seem to be very enthusiastic about it but a lot of them feel kind of disenfranchised by the whole political process and the fact that like they feel almost like unrepresented uh somebody made a comment about like oh like we hear this nothing happens we hear this nothing happens and i think a lot of people have gotten the impression uh not just here but around the world and especially across the country that like things just don't happen and so why participate in the political process and so i think that to some degree people's lack of participation isn't just reflective of like this effort or like with measure k effort I'm sure that there can be ameliorations, but, like, that's not something that I'm, like, arguing against. All I mean to say is that I think that that is, like, a sweeping trend, especially for people in my demographic. And so I just wanted to represent that and all of those people and speak on behalf of the people that I talk to here because I can and I'm here. So, yeah, that's all.

All right. Thank you very much. Anyone else in the back row want to come up? No? He said everything. Okay. Anna, do we have anybody on Zoom or phone?

No, we do not, Mr. Chairman. Oh, okay.

I'm going to close the public comment portion of the public hearing. Commissioners, any further questions? Okay. Can I get a motion? I believe it is.

I move that we receive and file.

Okay. Is there a second? Second by Commissioner Andrade. Do you care to speak to this?

Just thank you for the presentation, and I hope we get some look forward to the next one and thank you guys so much for coming I wish you all would have spoken because we don't hear enough from the public and everybody's opinion is extraordinarily important because I have a very strong opinion Everybody up here does we often don't agree at all so it's a great part to get everybody together and come to some compromise and That's how government's supposed to work. For all the people who aren't paying attention, but would be super passionate about it if they knew about it, we need to make a better effort. So thank you so much for coming. I really, really appreciate it.

All right. Commissioner Andrade?

Yes. Again, staff, thank you for a great launch of this work. I've been looking forward to the first iterations and the drafts, which will continue to get public feedback. Yeah. So that's all. Thank you.

All right. Let's call for the question.

That motion carries 7-0.

All right. Thank you. Departmental reports, public services, Mr. Yang. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Commissioner Martinez already kind of mentioned about the bike skills workshop on the 15th and also the Safe Routes to School follow-up committee workshop on the 17th, so I won't repeat myself. So I'm just going to wish everyone a happy Veterans Day. Thank you, and I defer back to the chair.

Thank you. Director Tai, anything from Development Services?

Yes, just a brief update tonight. Thank you. On the City Council meeting last week, the City Council adopted or approved the general plan amendment that established land use element consistency for the adopted housing element. The City Council also introduced for first reading the triennial building code and fire codes that will be coming back for second reading next week. And then... As Planning Manager McGill mentioned, the City Council received a Neighborhoods Where We All Belong outreach update. And we did share at City Council that in the next couple of weeks, there will be a summary synthesizing the findings of the outreach that we will be sharing and that will be made public and posted to the website as well. We'll roll that out as that is completed. Two events related to planning for housing. So first on the Fairview Developmental Center specific plan effort, there is an environmental impact report scoping meeting scheduled for a week from today, so November 17th at 6 p.m. in the community room. And then there's another one, the environmental impact report scoping meeting for June. NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE WE ALL BELONG, THIS IS A COUPLE OF WEEKS OUT, BUT IT'S DECEMBER 10TH AT 530 HERE IN THE CITY COUNCIL CHAMBERS. AND JUST A BRIEF DESCRIPTION, ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT REPORT SCOPING MEETINGS ARE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC AND INTERESTED PARTIES TO INDICATE THEIR INTEREST IN AREAS OF ENVIRONMENTAL STUDY PERTAINING TO A SPECIFIC TOPIC. AND THAT ENABLES A STAFF TO HAVE an inventory of the concerns so that when the technical studies and evaluation for the environmental impact report is conducted, that those areas can definitely be spotlighted upon and then covered in the draft document as well. And so we always say that it is important for those that are following along for environmental impact reports to get involved early. And then short of that, two more housekeeping announcements. One is that at this very moment, we do not have items for the November 24th Planning Commission meeting. And so I do anticipate we will be canceling that. And that's just my tentative update right now. And the other is to wish everybody a happy Veterans Day tomorrow. Thank you.

All right. Thank you. Mr. Preziosi, anything from the city attorney?

Thank you, Chair Harlan. Two issues. On the Redondo Beach case, it's highly likely that there will be a petition, if it's not already been filed, for review by the Supreme Court. And following that, there will likely be a call for amicus support from various cities, the California League of Cities. That's the first one. The second issue concerns the issue of sort of Sua sponte appeal of the directors decision so specifically when a director makes a decision under zoning code 1330 The proposed use not listed in land use matrix shall be reviewed by the development services director to determine The similarity to another listed use if no substantial similarity exists proposed you shall require approval a conditional use permit prior to establishment of the use. That was the issue that we discussed in connection with the prior hearing. So from a procedural standpoint, if the applicant itself, him or herself, were to appeal a decision of the development services director that a particular use would require a condition use permit, that would be properly before the planning commission. But the planning commission generally can't Without it being on the agenda as an appeal, act as an appellate body when no appeal has been filed on a particular matter in front of the commission. And that concludes the city attorney report. I'm happy to answer any questions on either item. Okay.

Before we all leave, I mentioned earlier that we'd be adjourning tonight on a memory of Christopher Aldana, who is a valued member of the Costa Mesa Planning Division, and he passed away recently. Chris was a beloved brother, son, friend, co-worker, and dedicated public servant. His helpful and engaging personality and cheerful presence brightened everyone's lives, especially those in our audience here with staff. After completing his education at Cal State Long Beach, where he earned both a master's degree in public policy and administration and a bachelor's of arts in urban geography, Chris devoted his career to public service, first in his hometown of Long Beach from 2019 to 2022, and then here in Costa Mesa, where he served as an assistant planner beginning in June 2022. Chris's dedication, warmth, and smile touched countless people, and his charisma and good heart made a lasting impact. He worked on several high-profile projects here in Costa Mesa, including the Pottery Studio, Northgate Market, which he was very proud of, as he should be, and more recently, a second Raising Cane's here, which will be opening shortly. Beyond his career, Chris cherished his family and friends and spoke most fondly of his nephew. His genuine kindness made everyone feel valued and appreciated, and he had an extraordinary ability to bring people together. He survived by his loving family, countless friends and coworkers who will forever remember him for his warmth and compassion he brought to their lives. Tonight, we adjourn in his memory, and may his memory be a blessing. We are adjourned.