Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd like to call to order the Concord Township Zoning Commission meeting for Tuesday, December 2nd, uh in Concord, Ohio. If we can uh have the pledge of allegiance, please join me.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [clears throat] Please chair tough. Heather, would you please call the role? Okay. Mr. Schindler, present. Mr. Ephaleise here. Mr. Terako here. And Mr. Robert here. We have four out of five.

Yep. Um, so we're going to go into approval of the minutes for November 4th. We had them in the package that that I had that I had and I did not have any comments. No kidding. Mr. Chairman, I make motion to approve the minutes of November the 4th, 2025. I second it. All those in favor? I I

oppose abstain. Okay. Minutes are approved. Correspondence. Frank. Uh, Mr. Chairman, I have nothing. Nothing. Rich. Nothing, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. Ron, nothing. Okay. Chairman has nothing. So, we have no correspondence. Zon inspector report. Heather. Okay. Um I hope you had a good time on your time off. I did. Thank you. Apologize. I was not here at the last meeting. Oh, you don't have to apologize.

All right. Um looks like you guys still had a productive work session, obviously. Um but um just a quick update um regarding the October and November zoning um activity. Um during the month of October, we uh processed 39 zoning permit applications and collected about $6,100 in permit fees. Most of those permits were for the residential projects um and included um 11 new accessory buildings, nine new single family dwellings, six decks, five additions onto homes, four fences, two new uh wall signs for commercial businesses, an alteration, and one uh change of use also. So, it's pretty busy in October. Um during November we had 14 zoning permit applications and $3,600 in fees. Again, mostly residential, four accessory buildings, four new single family dwellings, three fences, two decks, and one new commercial building. Now, the new commercial building was for the daycare, the Primrose School. So,

the one on the roundabout.

Yes, near the roundabout at Auburn and Capital. Um just a quick update on the uh BZA variance variance applications that were in front of them. Um in October the board had four different hearings. One of them was for um a property owner that had less than one acre of land in an R1 district that was looking to have uh more than one detached accessory building. And additionally um for the setback requirement they were asking for a variance to the setback. Um both those variance uh requests were denied. Um there was another variance application for a property owner in an R1 district that uh looking for variance uh set variances to the setback requirements for an accessory building. Uh for this one, the application was approved. Um and then there was another variance application uh for this was a corner lot in an R1 zoning district. The property owner was looking to put up a sixft tall fence on the uh side of the property that was too close to the road rightway. Um uh that variance request was approved to allow the six foot instead of the 4ft tall. seeing a handful of those type of requests on corner lots um where they're trying to enclose the rear yard, but the way the the resolution is set up, it cannot go any closer to that public road right away than the that than the edge of the house currently sits,

which for some folks it cuts off some of their property. So, kind of seeing that tends to be a lot of, you know, a variance that comes up quite a bit for corns. Um and then the last one was a variance request um on a lot that was part of the Quail Hollow PUD um for a larger diameter freestanding gazebo. They wanted to do a 25 foot diameter gazebo and the resolution restricted them to a 14T. That variance request was approved. Do you attend all the BCA meetings?

I do. Yeah, I'm in the secretary for that board as well. Um, and if you're ever curious, you know, they are videoed and recorded and reposted on the YouTube channel. Um, so I do try to monitor those as well, just from a zoning perspective, like putting my zoning inspector hat back on, like if if we tend to see a similar request over and over. Sometimes that that may be an issue with something in the resolution that this board may want to address in the future.

Yeah. So, and as I mentioned to you, uh, when I emailed you guys the packet, um, we did receive correspondence from Mr. Rich Peterson. Unfortunately, he has had to make the tough decision and, um, effective November 11th, he did step down, uh, from this board as a zoning commission member due to some uh, personal reasons, some health issues. How many years had Rich been? Rich been on the board uh, just over 15 years. So,

he's the whole time I was here before I started here. So, we'll definitely miss his uh his his uh him on the board, he was he was a good member to be with. So, um we with that being said, we do have um you know, a couple seats that the trustees do have to fill. Um we have his position and we we still have an alternate position open. Um, and I know I've talked to Ron, he's been willing to fill in um, until some decision has been made regarding getting a permanent replacement. So, do we want to send him a letter of recognition, thanks of some sort for service? The trustees?

Um, yeah. I mean, I could talk to the trustees about doing that. I don't They have done [clears throat] I know we'd sign it. Yeah. And the trustees would sign it. I'm sure you would, too. just a little thank you note or whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, I can I can look into that for sure. Yeah. And that's all I have for tonight. Okay. Thank you. Public participation. Yeah. If you'd like unless you [clears throat] want it.

All right. Afternoon everybody. Um, my name is Derek Gardner and uh we live at 10676 Prowy Road. Me and my my wife and my family. Um, come tonight to kind of ask us a question regarding the construction that's currently going on on Prowity Road. Um, with Blackmore Estates. Um, we've been kind of trying to figure out our round time frame on stuff on that. And then the rumor mill was that we were getting uh more with the KB farms being demolished. Um so we wanted to see if there was a timeline per like t stuff like that when that project were to be starting. Um just because the obviously the noise I don't know if you guys have heard from trustee meetings we've been you know we were complaining about the noise uh just because of a lot of the in and out of the heavy vehicles. they were starting a little early, things like that nature. Um, so we uh that would be our main concern right now is to kind of figure out if we know a timeline or if anyone knows a timeline on Blackmore, um, if they're going to start building homes, if they've been moving dirt out a lot um, lately. Um, but we wanted to know if there's like a a rough timeline on that project and if there was any truth to KB Farms being demolished and you know, uh, I think it was a 50 home development going in um, is what we were told a couple meetings ago.

Um, so I didn't know if there's any kind of more information on that whole situation and kind of when that would be looking to start or if it is. So, um, and that's probably the basis of where we wanted to start. So, okay. Uh, from the board standpoint, I don't know if we can answer that, but Heather, can you

I could I could try to help with that. Um, so I'm I'm Heather Freeman. I'm not only the secretary to the board, but also the zoning inspector. So, I'm the department head down on the zoning office on the dayto-day. Um so time frame on so Blackmore Estates you know as you know it's currently under construction the the development itself um the the Lake County actually approved that process. So they're getting ready to get their final approver approval by the Lake County commissioners. Okay. And when they get the final approval to dedicate the road and create the lots then they will start building the houses. So, okay, probably within a few weeks, I would anticipate some home construction possibly starting if not before the end of the year. Okay.

Um, regarding the time frame to to build all those houses, I mean, that's really um a question maybe for for Bill do for Billy Dawson. Okay. Um, because it all depends on, you know, when the lots are sold and Okay. how long those homes take to build and, you know, I'm not sure how quickly you build. I didn't know if it was Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. That's okay. [laughter] Um, I just didn't know if it was like a they build them all and then they sell them or is it like a build as they like, hey, our lots for sale, right? You know, because, you know, growing up, we had a couple of those developments in my area that that a lot would sit for sale for a long time. You're like, oh, I was going to buy that. And then finally, it would be like boom. You're like, oh, it's just like this neverending trickle down of construction. So,

so, um, I don't know exactly what, uh, Billy Dawson is planning for that, but, I know historically his developments, he doesn't usually do speck homes and then try to sell them. Okay. Usually, usually the lots are are sold and he's customizing each home for each, you know, lot owner. Okay. So, he may already have a couple, you know, pre-sold. Um, I don't know if you've tried to reach out to him just to maybe talk to him about maybe what his time frame is or he might be able to tell you more about that. Okay. So, and then the um the other development, the the KB farms, the Kettle Brook Farms, um uh I've spoken to the developer, you know, he's not submitted anything to the township or the county for any approval on that quite yet.

Okay. Um we still don't know if he's going to request a reszone of the property. It's currently zoned R1. Um so, if he does request a reszone of the property, um that would involve some public hearings here at the township level. Um, okay. If he does not request a reszone and he decides to develop it as it's currently zoned, then those those approvals come um he works through the county to get that approved. Okay. Like like Lake County Planning Commission, Lake County Engineer, Stormwater Engineer, and Okay. Um but as of right now, it's it's difficult to know the time frame timeline on that because nothing has been submitted.

Okay. Yeah, we were we were under the impression that they're like starting in next year, you know, that's was what we were heard and we were like I mean and it's PO I mean, you know, if he submits over the winter and gets all the stuff plan, you know, approved. I mean, maybe he could start the development, you know, next year. Okay. Um but then you still have to build the roads and build all the infrastructure and bring the sewer and the water and all of that. So, I don't know when the first house would be built per second. Okay. Um but it does take Yeah. Yes. Several months probably to get the plans approved by the county and then again if he's asking for a reason that that adds on more time to that. Okay. So, Gotcha. So, and in the past he's he was going to start the project and then didn't. So, okay.

It's difficult to tell when a developer is really going to be something. Gotcha. Understandable. Um, and forgive me is R1 would be that a single home or is is that what R1 means? R1 is one of the residential districts. Um so if you look in the zoning resolution the R1 district um does permit single family dwellings and two family dwellings as as permitted uses and then it goes into like different lot you know the lot size okay and what the setback requirements are.

So then it just becomes if it stays R1 it would essentially be uh set to those levels of hey if there's 20 acres here we can only fit per county guidelines how many houses for the lot size. Is that or is it just a one house for [laughter] So yes, so the zoning resolution tells us what sizes the lot needs to be and where the home has to be placed on the lot. So that's that's the local function. Yeah. So R1, you have to have minimum 22,000 square foot lot. So just over a halfacre lot. So if you have a 20 acre piece of land and you want to subdivide that, you know, how much area do you need for roads and storm water and how many lots can you carve out? So how many you know that that's what developer figures out with engineers.

Okay, understandable. Okay. Yeah, I I think that was our biggest worry was knowing if it was going to be starting if it was going to be like a compounding thing and just knowing you know, you know, it makes the road very busy and very loud. So that's why we're like we just going to have is it going to start now and kind of be done with or is it going to be something that's takes a long time. So that was kind of our trying to get a timeline on everything that we have looking down because we have a little one on the way and we're already fighting naps and everything. So it just kind of plays into it. So when everything starts to get even more loud more and busy, we're just kind of like where where are we standing? Um you know moving forward. So

once the uh road is in the the heavy construction should die down. Yeah. Yeah. But then you have all the construction for the houses. Mhm. Which [clears throat] means a a big trailer comes in with all the wood, but then that's it for one day. They unload it and then they're gone. Yeah. And it's not continuous or every day or whatever. Yeah. So, but yeah, you don't know what how long it's going to be for the roads and Mhm.

Yeah. So, that I appreciate it. I think that was our our main concern was just trying to figure out if there was any truth to what was going on just cuz we we had heard that it could be starting soon [clears throat] and they'd be demoing all of that and we just were like well could we at least kind of plan a little bit. So um other than that I think that's it. So the only thing you can plan is you talk about noise. There are state laws that say you know dawn the dust. Yeah. If they're making noise before that Yeah. or at dark time, you can call the sheriff's department. Okay. They'll be out right away and stop that very quickly. Awesome. Thanks. They can be f fined very heavily if they continue to do that.

Okay. Good to know. Appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you all. Thanks. [clears throat] Okay. Uh, next is new business. I'd like to bring up the flags and banners if that's all right with everybody. Okay, everybody has the flags and banners that that they have? Yes, Mr. Chairman. Any comments? I do.

Okay. So, [clears throat] for number three, section 30, right? Number three, no more than one flag pole shall be permitted for each 150 ft of frontage or portion thereof. So that means just one flag pole in front of that house or that business for 150 ft.

Yes, that's the way it's I would interpret that. So there's the reason I asked some businesses um they put up such as three flag polls, right? So they'll have United States flag, right? And then the state of Ohio flag and then some type of business flag on the commercial properties. A lot of times they'll fly their ISO rating and stuff like that. So will that conflict with what they do, right? That would not permit that then. Yeah, I know. That's, you know, and actually Brighty had brought that question up to me initially when we were talking about what about businesses that have multiple flag poles. So, [clears throat]

I mean, it isn't something we have to to have to limit um or

but is it's what some of the other communities were doing, but I but I do understand that there may be cases where folks want to have multiple that where maybe they don't have more than 100 foot of frontage. So, Um, I don't know. You know, if we didn't have a limit on the number, um, do we really think that people would take advantage of that? Probably not. I mean, especially since we're essentially saying you can't fly [clears throat] a flag as a commercial message. you can do non-commercial and and then also just you know the US the state those kind of flags you know political subdivisions so

I'm open to if the board wants to tweak that or change that or eliminate that one well we can just indicate the state flag [snorts] United States flag basically but you're right there's a lot of people they're you know they're college yeah you know like Ohio state, for example, they like to fly the Ohio State flag out there when the games are playing during football season. I apologize, Mr. Chairman. I I didn't view this as new business. Is this not part of section 30 sign regulations? This is We were talking about flags and banners under signs. This is Yeah, we were

This is not new business, am I correct? Well, this is new coming from our our review. Okay. Heather wanted to bring this up. Yeah. I mean, I kind of I mean, this is it's really under it's still part of the sign reg. Yeah. So, are we moving into sign regulations then? Well, I I was going to go new business since we got this in the mail. I said, "Can we do this in new business?" We can do it either way. Okay. Okay. But see, this doesn't comments are going to relate to the doesn't have science 30.xx. We didn't define the xx yet. Right. Right. Okay.

So, but I thought we could just take a look at this. Okay. As a whole, because if you look, staff recommends not making an exemption for flags. The commissioner also needs to consider zoning. Well, is it upfront using menor's definition of flag and revising? [clears throat] Staff is recommending using this. Mhm. Right. You know, verbatim as we go into flags. Understood. So, I thought we'd take take this separately. Okay. Not that we have to. Okay.

I have a question on number five. the the third line down where it goes uh mounted to a building or structure with a cord, rope, table, cable, or a similar method. Should that be a period? It goes on, or a similar method that may be supported by stakes. It just doesn't read right to me that we're talking mounted to a building or cord, rope, cable, and then we're saying stakes in the ground. I think that ought to be an ore or or whatever something in there or is that all one or similar method that maybe support? It just doesn't read right to me.

[snorts] I don't know if anybody saw that or not. It reads right to me, Mr. Churn, but I understand what you're But it reads right to me. It does. Yes. Can you explain it? A similar method supported by stakes. Uh it's not it's not it's it's giving some discretion of how to support the banner sign. Similar method supported by stakes. Okay. But okay,

that was Yes. My next question, no freestanding flag pole. This is on the 30XX number one. What about a non freestanding? Then it's not a flag pole. Is is not I'm not sure what what what is a nonf freestanding building mounted, but that you say it's can't be mounted on. It can't be mounted on top of

not on the roof, but you could mount that next to your garage door and be like by your front porch off the front of your house. So, well, I was thinking guy wires or something of that sort. So, it wouldn't be freestanding. Well, I've seen flags where people have them. They're porch rails that go across and they have the flag that drapes down. It's attached to the uh to the rail itself. Four or five as they go along. I understand that, Frank, but we're talking about the flag pole. Yeah, this is the pole, not the flag. Not the flag. Number one, this is the pole.

So, what is a non-free freestanding flag pole? I'm still concerned. Yeah, it has to be attached to something. It's a pole. It's a pole. Unless a pole, you say it can't be to the roof. No. Unless it's attached. Well, you can attach a flag to your, you know, to your There you got a rail. My flag, for example, is comes out from my uh my mailbox post, but it's not a flag pole. It's a pole. It has a flag. [laughter] Okay. Okay. So, we're getting into Well, yeah. I'm not sure that's [laughter] get into semantics. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll we'll let it go to BCA if it ever comes up for a non-free standing. I'm not. Yes. If there is such a thing.

Okay. Moving on. Uh [clears throat] number six. Maybe maybe I'm [clears throat] getting to be a devil's advocate, but no flag shall hang hang when fur fully unfurled less than 8 ft above grade when hung over a pedestrian walkway. How about if it's not over a pedestrian walkway? We're getting pretty particular here. And then the same thing, no less than 15 feet above grade when hung over a vehicular driveway or parking area. We're saying two specific instances [clears throat]

where we're saying this is allowed or not allowed. Mhm. What about a non-pedestrian walkway? There's no restriction cuz nobody would be walking into it. Well then there there is no restriction right on the height. Oh that's my interpretation. Correct. Yeah. So putting those minimums in is to asssure that if it is hanging over where pedestrians are supposed to walk that there's enough clearance. Okay. You know for folks to still walk under there or if it's where a vehicle is supposed to drive that it's not going to interfere with a taller vehicle. I'm good.

Yeah. I think those would really only be applicable [clears throat] really in like a commercial setting likely, you know, if you were I don't see that really becoming an an issue. Um, on your own residential property, I think, you know, as a homeowner, you'll you'll make that decision and most people are going to fly their flags higher than than eight feet probably anyway or 15 feet.

Okay. I have two comments, Mr. Chairman. Uh, first of all, when we spoke to flags about being proportional to the height, I'm I'm I like this. I think that was the example we last month you weren't here. That was the example that I think we discussed. So, support that.

Um, [clears throat] the second I I had was the the commentary that Heather has here needs to cons the the final sentence uh needs to consider if a zoning permit should be required for a flag pole. Um, as I thought about it and read through, it seems to me that that is a absolutely appropriate to have a zoning permit. We're we're going into placement, size, height. There's a lot of things that are particular for where the flag pole, how many, where, you know, that kind of thing. Seems like we should have a zoning permit for that. But then again, I don't want to be overbearing is the word. I I'm not sure. Um,

I think anytime Anytime you have a regulation that you should get a permit for it so you stay within the guidelines of our regulation. You're right. Right. I think Brady has it. I was just going to ask could it be considered a structure? Um Oh, that would maybe require a permit. Uhhuh. Um now I'm thinking of the freestanding, whatever that means, but the one that's just in the ground standing up tall the United States flag. It's someone's business or something. That's a good point. I would think that might be a structure.

I think it would likely fit our definition of structure, but for me, if if the intent was to require it, I would probably want to specify that in section 11 so there was no question and then come up with some small fee to cover the administrative cost to to do that. I don't something that would have to be added to the fee schedule. Unless it wanted to go it under the general other accessory structure, which most other accessory structures require a $100 permit fee, which may be too high for Yeah. for a flag pole. I think I think that might be too high for a flag pole.

Yeah, that's what I was uh struggling with, Mr. Chairman, that requiring a zoning permit. It's a flag pole. But again it is and I consider fall down. Yeah. It can't fall down. Yeah. Yeah. But then does it does that mean it has to be inspected? Yeah, it would be. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, if we have and that that what that 40T is above grade, right? Mhm. How much undergrad? How much how much how far down do we dig?

We don't that's design. We don't we wouldn't enter into any design specification. That's up to the installer in my opinion as as an engineer. Yeah, that's that's not something we want. We wouldn't regulate that. I agree with Rich on that. But I don't know if the building code that's going to be in the directions of the flag or Yeah. construction of it, right? There could be. What do other communities have regard zoning permit for flag pole? Good question. [laughter] Yeah, I don't know. I can look into that and let you know. Is it something I would I would say yes to because I don't think so.

Somebody wants to put up an 80 foot flag pole. Hey, I should get a permit and they come in and get the permit. Well, no, you can't do that. It's Yeah. Yeah. So, cut it in half and put two flags on. [laughter] You can't I know 15 ft apart. [laughter] No, I used to put power poles in the ground in my younger days and we had a 55 ft pole. We put it in the ground 5T. Mhm. 10%. Mhm. So, so not to define this anymore, I just thought of something.

So, it's 40 ft from ground level. From grade, right? Grade level. What are you thinking? [laughter] You could raise that grade, right? Or no? Or am I thinking too much into this? You're raising the grade. What do you mean? So, we talked about it last meeting with the sign up on the mound. Yeah. Street levels down here, right? So, if I build a mound, that's my grade and I put the flag pole in. So, that's over. A lot of people do that when they put in landscaping. Yeah. Yeah. They build a mound.

They build a mound and put their top put in their trees and stuff like that. And that's And of course, if they're going to stick it in that area, Yeah. It would be where that mountain top that mountain. So that that one definition said forget about the amount you put in. Take it down to the grade. Take it down to the street level. Street level.

Not that I want to put more into it. I'm just Yeah. Yeah. Then it requires a survey, you know. Yeah. I just thinking I'm okay with it. I I understand. I'm okay with the language. Yeah. Moving on. But I guess I I'll leave the question as to if zoning permits are common place for flag pole. I'll look into that. I I'll let you guys know. I'll I'll do a little bit more searching on that. Okay. I don't know if you feel differently like it should be for sure or not. Yeah, I I think so. With a minimal fee. Mhm. [snorts] With a minimal fee. I don't know how long you want to go, but [clears throat]

50 I don't I don't know. I have no idea. Whatever the paperwork you think is worth put in and your time, you know, to have it typed up and everything. Mhm. So few bucks to me as far as I'm concerned. And I I don't want to make it too high because people won't put in flag poles in. Yeah. [snorts] or they just won't come get the permit. Get the permit. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good point. Yep. Good point. Okay. Well, that's the flags. We'll we'll discuss it whenever we get back the flags and banners.

Okay. Uh if we go into old business, the work on should continue on uh sign regulations section 30. Mhm. So where did we stop? Oh man, I still have [clears throat] Mr. Chairman, um if you don't mind. No, I know. Um I did review obviously the the meeting from last month and saw that you you guys did make some way through [snorts] um the documents, right? Um and I know that there was some discussion uh about window signs and window covering and window perf and some of that and you have a presentation on that.

I did put together just a few slides that I figured we could just go over. Yeah. Um of course Mr. Rattell is not here this evening to enjoy the slides, but I'll share them with him. Um, but if you want, we could just kind of discuss that a little bit. Um, I do know where we um left off too um from the last meeting, too. If you guys want to pick back up going through that as well, we can do that. Yeah, we we discussed that for quite a while and then we said we we needed more work on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We got educated on what a window perf is. Yep, we did. Yep. So, if you'd like, I can kind of go over that with you first.

If you would, please. Sure. That would be fine. All right. And I I printed out the the presentation for you guys, too. I don't know to give it to you now or after or whatever. Take some notes. Thank you. Yeah. Small. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

We're also put it up here on the TV. All right. So, um I kind of I went around Concord actually and took some photos of some of our um businesses and commercial centers that we already have here. And then I also went on Google Streets and and went to Menor and grabbed a couple photos from over there just to kind of show you guys a couple things. Um

so window sign, this is what we were proposing um in in the resolution uh for the definition. This was the updated definition that we were talking about um where a window sign is a sign that can either be a permanent sign or a temporary sign. You can apply it on the in inside of the window or it could be applied on the exterior of the window or a door. Um, or it could be located, you know, inside of the building near a window. That purpose is really for folks on the outside to see that as long as it's within like five feet of that window. That sign that could be hung right behind the window could be considered a window sign. Mhm.

Um um and then I know we talked about how do you measure the the the window area and there was a little there was a question about these mullions and the the 4 in and um the building facade and how that might separate the different window areas and that therefore if the mullion was more than 4 in or um then those two window panels would be considered separate windows. If the mullion was less than the four inches, then that whole array of windows would be considered one window. So I think in this case, like photos help with this.

So um these are a couple photos that I took. The one on the left is from Grismill Village. This is um the little retail uh Sophia's boutique over there. As you can see, there are several separate window panes there. um that and we went [clears throat] measure these all of these mullions or these little separations between the window panes are less than four inches. Yes.

Okay. So, if you're looking at um coverage and and and in the the commercial districts right now, we're kind of saying no more than 50% of the window area can be covered with window signs. So, looking at that, this would be would meet that criteria. It's less than 50% just visually looking at it. Um, now they are apply I can tell you they're at the top. They're applied on the exterior of the window. I know they are just because because the way that they put those decorative bars in this development. It's very difficult for these shop owners to to install them on the inside because it just doesn't work.

Um, just also note that we don't require zoning permits for window signs. So, none of these have, you know, really been reviewed or approved by the department or, you know, some of them might meet the zoning, some might not. Some might be in place before the current resolution was adopted. I don't really know. Um, now the on the right here's Subway. They have a lot of windows and doors on their storefront. And again, measuring these, all of those separations are less than 4 in. So except for the building facade. So where the brick is separating like the the entryway and then the windows to the right um that would so all the windows to the right of the brick building facade that would be considered one window for purposes of area you know so up to 50% of that entire window area could potentially be covered with some kind of window sign. Um, and then the doorway with the windows that are kind of next to it. Again, that is all considered one window based on the definition and how we would measure the the area. Um, again, just another couple examples. This is over at Ly's um the apothecary. This could be window perf. I don't know if it is. I don't know if you can see out from the inside, but just essentially window perf, just so you guys know, is is a window sign. The only difference between that and a traditional [clears throat] window sign is like these ones probably you can't see out from the inside, right?

But it's really, you know, from what I found it, the the main purpose of window perf is for advertising. It's like and yes, they keep them up longer than, you know, 45 days. Um, this has probably been there the whole entire time Lies has been a tenant here. So, we're going on five years, right? Um, but each window bay area, I don't know, I don't know the right terminology. I apologize, but you know, is would be considered a window, like one window area. So, the the windows on the the far left and that

um less than 50%, same thing with the center area and then to the right. And then just another version, another window that they have on the building. They've got a couple different window signs. the the liquor store sign is one that's kind of hung behind the window. Um, so that's an example of one that was hung from inside, not either on the on the exterior or interior of the window, but just behind the window display. Um, so again, just showing a few other examples. Ah, so the one on the Yeah, [clears throat] this one's really

bad. The one on the left, um, this is over at Crow Crossing, but it's, um, between the two buildings. So, like where the beer, um, the burgers to beer patio is. If you're on that patio and you're looking at the other building, this is the, uh, the side of the Elements Massage Building. Um, they have basically four large um, window signs that completely cover those areas of the window. They're they're from what I can tell they're applying on the exterior of the window because they're starting to come off. They're starting to peel up on the one corners there. And then they they hung stuff on the inside to block those top windows. And then they've got a bunch of stuff on the bottom. So for them, it it's it's like almost dual purpose here. They're they're seems to be in an area that they don't want windows and they're also using it for advertising. So, I don't really know what's behind there, but the they're covering um more than 50% of the windows that that should be covered, right? And they're doing it

not not in an aesthetically pleasing way, I would say. Like, agreed. Um so, it's it's a little bit of hodge podge here. Um I was surprised I actually saw that I was driving behind the building. When I came around, I was like, "Oh, wow. [laughter] Didn't know that was there." Um, and not in a good way. Right. So, on the one on Ly's, Yeah. [clears throat] You want to go back one? Sure. The one on the right. Yes. If somebody has an internal beer sign. Yeah. That they hang Yep. from the ceiling inside,

but you can read it from outside the window. Is that a window sign. It would be if it was um within five feet of the window. Okay. Based on the definition that we're proposing. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So, if it's like it's like clearly the liquor one, they're they're clearly hanging that there for advertising purposes to draw your attention there and that would meet our definition of window sign. Okay. Yeah.

And that would be permitted. I mean, those all meet from what I can tell the current resolution other than maybe being applied on the exterior. I'm not sure if those are on the interior exterior. [clears throat] The other one here, um, [clears throat] this is the the Birdie Kings. It used to be the Beer Head. So, to the right of their doorway, their entryway, they have like the pizza and the burger up there and like the the the glass of beer. Now, this is the only This is a little different, and it's hard to tell with the photo, but you can actually the black areas is translucent. You can see in, you can see out. Essentially,

the only signage there are the actual um images themselves that were applied to the windows. It doesn't even appear that they've added tinting or anything to it. Mhm. Um but that that was applied more in a manner of like like those those window pfs would be to kind of take up the whole entire window area. But like again for that one, if you're actually looking at it and it's hard to tell in the photo, it's not a solid it's not a solid um window sign. The only the the the other than the white areas, everything else you can see through it both ways in and out.

Now, this is an example of a window perf that came from that assigned company's website. Here they're showing um what you can do if if you order from them, you can and it goes through the whole thing on how how to order it on the website and and how to design it and everything. But here's a good example of what someone might want to use Window Perf for. But if you can you can tell I mean it's an advertisement. You know, they're they're selling their business. They're they're selling you this um a feeling of you're going to come in here and you're going to feel a certain way um if you come and frequent my business. Right? So even with graphics with images rather than words, right? Which if you look at our proposed definition of sign, it includes not only just words but

graphics and images and things like that. But here's a window example. Can you So if you're on the inside, you can clearly see out. That's my Yes. If it's window perf, right? They put those tiny little holes all in it. Like you can't see the holes from far out from outside, but when you're inside, it allows you to look out. But for zoning purposes, window perf in my opinion is a different just another kind of window sign. Yeah. And as far as how do you how do we want to regulate window signs? Um right now we have different coverages that we allow.

Um do those work? Do we need to change that? Do we you know it's Mr. Wartell um seem to think that we might want to allow for more coverage I think based on the discussion. I I'm not exactly sure but maybe we would want to allow business to do this. I'm not sure. So thing is now with AI coming out,

there's so many different methods that are being out there now that we see on television where they actually have people, you know, but it's all computerenerated and how they'll take that technology and apply it to Windows can really be something in future that I think be very difficult to try to regulate. It's changing so quickly. just point of thought.

Now, architecturally, if this was on cry, the Chris Mill buildings and the windows were cover where'd it go? Covered like that. Yeah. I don't I It's It's not desirable view for me. I don't But maybe Mhm. I how how okay my question would be how does this fall under a current regulation is that permitted this would not be permitted under current regs right because this assuming let's just say this is all one big window right yeah the mullions are less than 4 in we'll consider this all one window that would be 100% coverage which would not be permitted okay okay

even if it's a window perf correct yeah we're not going to define window perf in our zoning resolution I'm not recommending that we do that I'm my point is just to let you guys know that window perf is it just another kind of window sign. Got it. It's still but [laughter] it's just a different way to Here's here's another point of view. We we want to look at the a window sign from the outside. Mhm. From the outside. We're looking at a window sign. Yeah.

Okay. If it's a PF Okay. The the intent is what what is the intent of our 50%. Why do we limit it to that? Do we want we want the inside to be able to look out through the window? That's outside. No. So, we don't care. We don't care about the PE. I'm asking everybody. I know.

Are we looking at the person inside looking out? And if we have a window sign that's greater than 50, they can't see what's going on, right? From the outside in, why do we limit it to 50%. If you're asking me, for me, it if it looks like graffiti. If every window was covered like that in a commercial, it looks like graffiti. I It's just not desirable in in township. Yeah, it's from a personal feeling standpoint.

Yeah. Architecturally, visually, uh, I'm using the word graffiti, but it's just images all over the place covering windows because it's advertising. It's a sign. It It is advertising. Yes. In in most cases. Well, yeah. I guess even in that case, it is with the flowers, it's still advertising. Yeah. from the inside it's not detracting anything. It's you can see out. Yeah, you can see out. So, but as as the as the regulation stands now, we want to keep it from an outside to inside viewpoint. That's all that we're worried about.

Well, the regulations don't really have a viewpoint on that. They're just defining what a window sign is and and setting a limit that you can have. And there's no distinction made whether or not you can see in or out from inside the building or outside the building. It's just is it a sign, is it not? You know, is it a window sign? And what is the maximum coverage? And I think as you know what Rich said, you know, architecturally, visually, you know, trying to reduce the amount of signs and clutter, uh, confusion. Um, if you get can you, you know, if every business had just, you know, if they knew that if they had a glass storefront, they could have unlimited, you know, window signs, then you could get a hodgepodge of, you know, it may not look pretty like the [clears throat]

Yeah, right. You might not always look like that. I have another example I want to show you on the next slide, actually. Okay. Um, and this is from another community. There we go. I see. This kind of covers a couple topics that we've been discussing. Um, I cannot believe I can finally use this image. This I drive by this twice a day. Um, but if you look here, this business establishment has 100% window coverage with all their window signs. Mhm. I [clears throat] don't know if you can see in or out. I have no idea.

Um, I know I can't see in. Um, and it so and they've kind of has it like a it's it's an advertisement. And I mean, you know, that the window panels on the right, you know, it's a it's a theme. And then on on the left, it's another theme. Um, and then they have a bunch of stuff on the doors as well. Um, this establishment, I'll just kind of digress a little bit, also has multiple flagples. Multiple. Um, I don't even know how many are there at this point. More than three. Yeah. And it also has a sandwich board sign that they have on the sidewalk blocking where people walk. Um and [clears throat] then three other so so in that you have to walk around it to get

Yeah. based on our or what we're proposing you would not put the sidewalk sign on the sidewalk [laughter] right it would be within five foot of the front of your front door your business not blocking a pedestrian way and definitely not on a public sidewalk. [laughter] Um but okay you know here's another example again you know just 100% window coverage a different way to do it. Drug Mart. Drug Mart. [laughter] They got a lot of small signs. Some of the window signage doesn't look great, right? I mean, it's

um but it it's necessary because they're advertising we have this, we have this going on, this this this, but um and I didn't do any calculations, but you know, I'm guessing this this is all with less than 50% window coverage, you know, on the ground floor area. And then even above that, that would all be considered one window. And then the where the doors are that that that would be all one window area as well. Yeah. Um this likely meets the the maximum 50%. Um that falls to my view of clutter. Yeah, it is feeling of feeling of detracts from the we're saying if you have the million is less than

four inches four inches. Yeah. Okay. Then you have all if you have all four inch ones, it's all one window. How about the door where the mullion is three and 1/2? This one's three and a half. When they're together, it's seven. Yeah. Then those window those glass panes would be considered separate. Okay. Windows then on on the door on a movable door probably. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. [snorts] This is getting really hairy. Yeah, it really [laughter] is.

But again, I'll remind you, we don't require zoning permits for window signs. So, they it just kind of has to self-regulate. And it it it a lot of times when um commercial businesses want to have window signs, they're they're doing other signage as well, and they'll they'll ask like, "Hey, do we have restrictions on this or can we do this?" Um but for an established business like Drug Mart, you know, they they don't ask, they just put the signs up, right? And so, um it's not something that we're proactively going out and looking and calculating and oh my goodness, this is a violation, right? I want you to take your calculator in place measure and your and your tape measure.

She's got her laser. But I mean, honestly, if we got some legitimate complaints about a particular business that did do something like that, we would definitely do our due diligence and follow up and talk to the business like the flag pole one. That one. Yeah. Okay. Um Oh, sorry. This is just another this um another example of a place in in Menor actually where they have um different window signs on a few of the of the panes here. I don't know if the mullions what the sizes of the mullians are, but just a different way to that people have put up different window signs.

Some of the window areas they've covered completely. Um other areas they haven't um and then another example just over here on Menor Avenue. Yep. But what we were proposing for the nonresidential districts under 305F uh was that the maximum area for both temporary and permanent [snorts]

um and this is where I might be proposing a change to you. Instead of saying uh placed in or painted on um I think it should be placed in or applied to a window. um shel the maximum shel 50% of the window area and then the the 10% in those other zoning districts. Okay. And I and I'm recommending rather than painting applied because if they put it on with a different manner then Yeah. that way it covers it. Yeah.

And then for uh and that's specific to to all window signs whether it's permanent or temporary. There's no really restriction on how long those signs can stay up there either. Okay? It's just these are the rules for the window signs. Um, this is how much coverage it can be. And then for temporary signs, we're saying if they're temporary, then they have to be attached on the inside of the building. So therefore, you know, if they're permanent, it could be inside or [cough] outside. Um, I think there was a question about the time frame on that the last meeting, wasn't there? There was a little bit of discussion about the 45 days, but

the way I'm reading what we're proposing here under 3005F specific to window signs, there's no time frame.

Mhm. Okay. All right. And then for um

window, you know, residential uses and and residential districts, what do we say about window signs? Um we kind of talk about them in passing here, like for the one and two parcels that have one and two family uses on it.

Um we say that, you know, they can have temporary signs that could be ground. um freestanding, mounted mounted to the building or placed in a window, right? But we don't um so that so they're allowed to be in the window. So therefore, it could be on the inside or the outside. I think for for residential, most people are going to do it on the inside of the window, but the resolution would allow them to do it either way. For multif [clears throat] family properties, same thing. It could be displayed in the window. Um, but for nonresidential uses in a residential district like a church or a school, um, the way it's written currently, it does not have any provisions to allow for any type of window signs. Mhm.

It has to either be a wall sign or a ground sign. Ground sign.

So, examples of residential Heather would be garage sale, estate sale. Um, like for me right now, I have a window sign at home, my kids marching band thing. It's displayed in the window. Yeah. [laughter] Okay. Um, but yeah. Okay. I don't I think more for those kind of signs. People will probably put it in their yard rather than a window. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe a small little this house is, you know, armed or security type of sign, you know. My neighbor across the street has a sign that proud of her her children in school. Yeah. They won awards. They put them in the window. Well, in their case, they had one in the window. Yeah. Now they got a little bit bigger one and they just put it in the front yard. Yeah. Close to the house. you know.

Yeah. And I that's great. You know, parents proud of their children what they've accomplished. Looks nice. Okay.

Um and that Sorry, this is those were for the per I just had one more slide on Brian. Sorry. Um and then for temporary signs um for those for residential uses um you could have they could have um temporary window signs, but the way we're regulating it here would be um no larger than eight square feet and no more than 45 days. 45 days. Very good. So, I don't know if that was very helpful.

Yeah. Like I really don't know if that's helpful or not. I don't know. You know, I think it's good that John brought up the fact that businesses might want to do that. I don't know how we could allow 100% coverage and and make sure we got something that would be aesthetically pleasing every single time based on the images. We know it's most businesses are just putting up signs like as needed, that kind of thing. Or um honestly, I think if somebody wants to do 100% coverage that that should be a case for the BCA. Um otherwise, I don't know how you could regulate or um the amount Yeah.

of of coverage, you know, how that how that changes a potential building really could be dramatic. Um So, I think there's some safety things too in addition to the aesthetics, you know, reasons why you would want to be able to see in in businesses as well.

Are the people on BCA aesthetically inclined [laughter] or are they aesthetically declined? Well, their job is to, you know, give relief to property owners that have difficulty complying with the regulations, right? So, it's up to the the property owner to prove to the board that there's something unique about their situation that makes it difficult to comply with the regulation. So, they're going to have to show them, prove to them like why they should allow for something more than than what's per more than 50%. Yeah.

Well, you brought up a point, though. Would is is there a security issue with like the county sheriff? They ever I I don't solicited a a question to them if this is 100% coverage and they're can't see what's going on inside. Both police and fire. Police and fire. Yeah. [clears throat] Police and fire. Yeah. if they get called for unfortunately like there's so much nowadays things happening in buildings and they all arrive on site and stuff and you can't see in they don't know what they might be walking into the point might be mood to the coverage is at eye height

you can't below yeah you can't see in any way you can't see in any way yeah [snorts] but you would have thought they would have voiced that to other community it would have been something police fire would have said, "Hey, we don't even want it at height. If you're going to cover some a window, you got to cover it above the eye." Yeah. Point well taken. Yeah. I mean, it it's it's real. Yeah. We could have less than 50% or 50% or less and just put it at the wrong height. Yeah. Huh. Like I said, this is getting pretty Yeah. Yeah.

You could really get maybe something you could shall not be maybe could touch base with the sheriff's department. Just bring something up that we've been discussing in regulations. Get their thoughts. Might be that might be a good idea, especially nowadays with so much violence and stuff going on. But I think that that the 100% PF is uh is out.

And even with like the like the subway example, the image of subway, they could do a nice window pf on some of that those windows where some of the panes could be 100% coverage but still have some of the panes open. and still be compliant with the 50% based on those millions being less than the right, you know, four inches. They could still do some nice advertising even at 50%. Right. Sure. For their business. Sure.

Because they could they could cover one half of that whole area to the to the right of the the brick column there. We were going to pick up right here. 300242 page 10. Page 30.10. Yeah, I am later. Mhm. I didn't right. So that's all I have on that. Um, okay. Good. I'll make sure I share that with with John, too, and he can always review the video.

Sure. [clears throat] Well, with that,

I I would like to go a little bit more into 30, section 30, and we stopped at page 10. Well, we stopped at page nine. with our discussion. So if we can start at 30.04 on page 30.10 and go down through now I'm go down through permanent signs for residential uses with the knowledge that we have that we're going to change some of this stuff anyway. Mr. Chairman, before we start, are we going through the clean copy or the one with the red line changes?

I have both of them here. Both. Which one are we referring to when you're talking about Just making sure we're looking at the same one? 30.10. Clean copy. Clean copy.

And let's see. And I'm at 3.04 [snorts] paragraph. Let me go back over here. Where is four? We cut so much out. 30.04. I got to find it. There it is. Okay. 30.04 A. Any questions or concerns about A, one family and two family residential properties? Do

you have any comments? No, just um for the record, this is exactly what we have now in the resolution just in a different format. Um each property owner can have three total permanent signs. One not to exceed three square feet and two the other two not to exceed 1.5 square feet. each can be freestand free standing mounted to their building mounted to a building or wind displayed in a window. Um and then there's a height restriction. This is currently what we have in there. So m that was actually going to be my question. It's just formatting. I I compared the two. They're some of it. Yeah. A lot of it's just reformatting. Yes.

Yeah. So uh it was hard to discern where there's actually any revision in this 304 for me. [snorts] I don't know if Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And if you rec Yeah. And I I I know I said that at the very beginning when we started doing this. I did not change a lot of the standards because I didn't see that they were broken. Right. So what we when we the whole point of trying to update this was to get rid of, you know, the contentbased regulations and a lot of the content based regulations we had dealt with the temporary signs and defining the different types of temporary signs. So, I felt like in general our permanent sign allowances regarding square footage, number, height, all those kind of restrictions were fairly good.

Um, so you're not really going to see changes here. Um I I guess if there's something that somebody sees that they've always questioned or um something that really stood out regarding this particular section um then we can go over that for sure but basically 30.04 is essentially the same same that's what I thought. Thank you. So in for my comment under C maximum area such freestanding sign shall be 25 square feet. I said too big but that's what we already had.

So and those are like those um signs when you enter a development and it tells you where you're entering. Yeah. Like Devonshshire Estates or Mount Royal or you know whatever the name of your development is. Th those are those kind of signs that we're referring to here. So maybe a at most a 5x5. Yeah. Well, okay. This is this is specific now. I guess they didn't. Okay. Yeah, that's Does that clarify that a little bit for you? Yep. That I'm fine. Okay. 8 ft in height. Okay. Yeah. Non-residential uses in residential districts. Mhm. [snorts]

Non-residentidential use are permitted signs not to exceed 50 square ft in total sign area. Either a wall sign or a ground sign or a combination of the two. Boy, that sounds big to me. And I know that's what we already have, but that just sounds too big. 50 square feet.

Oh no.

[clears throat] nonresidential uses in residential districts such as I need a an example like a church. Church. Yeah. Or a library or school. School. Yes. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, 50 square feet. Yeah. 50 square feet. It's just 6 by8. The confusion might be hiring because it's non res non-residential and residential. Yeah. Yeah. Church, schools, libraries. And if you think

they're typically residential districts, and if you think about where we have a lot of those cited in our community, most of those uses are not you're not going to find them in a development. Right. Right. You're going to find them on like Concord Hampton Road, Ravana Road. Um, okay.

We I can do a little bit more looking at the signs that are out there already and see what kind of sizes they have just to give you guys to give you higher the board more context of what's there. And maybe if that if that helps [clears throat] It's been there already. It's been there for years, right? 50 square feet. Yeah. I'm trying to think who may have applied for new signs under that. Um Auburn Career Center probably did. I I don't know. Their um their electronic man the EMC sign they have on Auburn Road.

Um I could take a look and see what size that is. the the new Primrose School I think if I remember the had a the Primrose School is a commercial district. Um but again I don't even I don't even think it was this big. I think it was smaller than 50 square feet honestly. Yeah. Not residential. Yeah. But I but again like this the sign itself I don't believe was even that big. So and that would go along with like is 50 too big? Maybe it is. Yeah. It might be school church. I'm thinking about my church is Mhm. You know how big is that sign? Where's your church? Is it in Concord or

Pilgrim? It's in It's not St. Gabriel has a It's nowhere near 50 square feet. Yeah, I could Oh, yeah. I could look at theirs, too, and see. So, like I said, I'd be happy to take a look at some of the ones we have in Concord and give you some more context of the sizes of those. And if we want to relook at that figure, we can. No, let's go on. Okay. Well, good discussion. Thank you. Did you want me to do that? I'm sorry. Or no, no. No. Okay. Okay. Nope. No. Okay. [clears throat]

Uh 30.05 permanent signs in nonresidential districts. And again, this is the same. Am I right, Heather? 3005 is same. [clears throat]

A lot of this is the same. Yes. The one thing that we were kind of that we've talked about was the uh um like the poll signs and the advertisement. Yeah. because we kind of already went through this. Yes. At a previous work session. Yeah. But essentially most of this is the same. Yeah. [clears throat] We did have one meeting where we talked about do we really want to prohibit the poll signs versus allowing them and the sites that may be adjacent. But I think all of that has been incorporated into here.

Yes. Okay. [snorts] I'm I'm looking at uh 3005 on on the new printed one. Mhm. Uh A3. Each building shall be permitted a minimum of 30 square feet of building sign area. Shouldn't we have a maximum We do. It's Yeah. It's stated right above that in number one. Yeah. Yeah.

Be some building 1/2 square foot for every linear foot of the building. Front foot frontage. First line shall be 1 and 12 square feet for every linear foot of building footage. Front. Frontage. Frontage. What' I say? Footage. Footage. Frontage. That's all right. We know what to model. But that's [laughter] okay. Well, I I put a few numbers down here. Okay. So, we're a we're a permanent sign in a nonresidential district.

So, if I have a frontage of 25 ft, I can have a 37 and 12 square foot sign. If I have a 50 foot frontage, I can go a 75 square foot sign. And we're talking about, remember how we measure building frontage, right? If you go back to the definitions and area calculations, it's the the facade of the building itself. We're not talking about lot frontage. We're talking about the building. The building. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Just the building. Yeah. Okay. So if I have a 50 foot building frontage,

Yeah. I can have a 75 square foot sign. Square 75 square foot sign, right? Wow. Wow. That's a big sign. That's 8 by 9, [snorts] 7 by 10. We also have some other regulations that might restrict that size uh further in the the regulations. Um wow. I think

let me just point you point that out to you real quick. Um, under the design criteria, wait one second, which is where just one moment on page 30.20. Yeah,

under design criteria number under a number 10. So [clears throat] a sign composed of background panel or individual letters should not exceed approximately 7 70% of the height, length or area of the portion of the building facade on which basically the sign will be erected. So if the building is, you know, 50 feet long and the sign goes 50 to 50 edge to edge,

I could say no to that and go, look, it's supposed to be about 70%. So you're going to have to shrink the side size of the sign. Yeah. [clears throat] or if it you know so so there are some other restrictions in here. Okay. What you're reading under this section is that here are the maximums. However, everything kind of applies. So they still have to comply with the design and elimination criteria. So there so it could be some other things in there. Okay. It's still rather large. Yeah, I would agree. higher to your point. And even at that, even that 70%. Yes.

Height, length, or area. Now, a lot of these have been in here for a long time. So, just because it was that way before, Yeah. Yeah. doesn't mean we can't change it. But, Right. Wow. Okay. It's a common calculation that I saw in a lot of other communities resolutions. Oh, really? Yeah. Just so you Okay. But definitely it's open for, you know, I see one and a half here, one I see too big, too big. Uh, too big and too big again on my notes.

Yeah. [laughter] You're not going to like We have the one and a half square feet. Yeah. all over the place.

I I I agree with you, Hire, but but as I as trying to visualize that, it's hard without a like seeing it see it somewhere. Yeah. It's physically 50% should be 40%. Yeah. That's why I'm rolling over. Yeah. because it's been there before. So why why mess with what was been there for many years and well it was updated in 2014. So we're not talking 30 years ago, right? We you remember by a consultant

by a planning consultant that we hired that there was a subcommittee that worked with this board versus with other members of the township I believe. Okay. So, they went through a full way more detailed process than what we've been doing the last couple months. Yeah. So, that that's why it's really hard for us the question. It's a good question. Hard for us to judge. Well, then what should it be? Yeah. Yeah. Which is why I didn't make it should be smaller. [laughter] Okay. Let's write that in. Please don't bend it. Please make it small.

Okay. I'll ignore that one. [snorts] Um

[clears throat]

I found reading through it very difficult to again choose the word visualize or even comment sure on a lot of this if we could relate it to something like either something we've seen in the past or a building we went by or sign that we saw somewhere Yes, then we have that. But right now, not that I'm trying to sherk our responsibilities. No, of course not. But reading through this until like Heather, like obviously I was oblivious to window perf, but this the visuals that Heather provided really helped me understand and then how cluttered something and that's because we've seen these buildings for one thing. Yeah. Yeah.

Right now we're going through an item that's written down, [laughter] you know, and we don't have the concept to go along with it. Okay, now we're talking about large building setbacks. Sorry, Mr. Chair. Talk about explaining something real.

Yeah, I saw that, too. The maximum allowable area for building signs may be increased by 1/2 square foot of sign area for each foot of building frontage when a principal building is set back more than 200 ft from the principal street on which the building's located. [snorts] Okay, that's that is so you can see it. I I take it. Now the sign area may also be increased by 1/2 square foot of sign area for each lineal foot for that portion of the building which is more than 200 ft from the street and facing such street when the additional sign area is included at a sign placed in that portion of the building. Okay. Were you going to ask for what that means?

No. Oh, okay. I'm not even going to bother. All right. [laughter] I'm not even Because I can't answer. Maybe Heather can. I'm sure she can. I [laughter] [clears throat] Okay. Uh, table 30.05 30.05D delta. And my comment there is C note B. Do we have a note note B? Yeah. Next.

Okay. Okay. That that's to see what what the A and B means. Mhm.

Oh, so this is just B plus any additional sign area permitted for corner lots and large lots. What is this telling me? The question I had on On B I have tree lines. [clears throat and cough]

This is 30.0D 05D freestanding signs. Okay. The question on what? What about that? I'm sorry.

Well, I have something I I have a question up here. tree lawns and then I go up to I circle A and B up up ab up ab up ab up ab up ab up ab up ab up ab up ab up ab up above in that block I don't know where maybe it was [snorts] landscaping require I don't know I just had a commentary tree lots and

I don't know where it fits. All right. And there we go down to 6A on page 30.13. 6A. Here we go to 175%. The area for each freestanding identification sign complies with table 30.05D and the total area of both freestanding signs shall not exceed 175% of the maximum area permitted for a single sign. Single sign is 40 square feet. You can get up to 70 square feet. Boy, I don't know where people got these numbers. I'm sorry. I just think that's way too big.

So, this is not combined. This is right. You get one. So, if you have a corner lot for commercial business that's on a corner lot, they can have the one freestanding sign. Let's say they're in the uh B1 district. Say they maximize it. They go 60 square feet on the one, then they are allowed to have a second one. Um but that second one would be limited to 75% of whatever 60 of of 60, right? Um [laughter] and and it would have to be placed on the secondary street, you know, clearly intended for that. So it allows a second sign but smaller than the first sign. Yeah. And they can't be But then if you wanted to combine them into one and just do one sign under 6C, you could do that and put it at the corner instead. But with that, it could be larger.

Could be larger. It could be even larger. Yeah. So, it could be 90 square feet.

Wow. Is that big? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. most I'm visualizing a commercial district where it's a corner lot.

Sheets. Sheets. Okay, that's a good example. My favorite. And neither one of them, they didn't maximize square footage on either one of those signs. Um, it's a corner lot. I know we we had them in presentations here, didn't we? I don't have any of that with me tonight, but in some of the previous work sessions, we had some What else is So, would it be because the corner lot that you would have two display faces? Yeah. Two furnishes. That's what you're saying, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Two fringes. This this way and that way. It could be like a like a sign like you're they could do it that way. Um or it could just be your standard double-sided sign just placed at the corner. Um Oh. Um the space. So like Vista Springs over at Auburn in Discovery, the assisted living, they have a sign that they placed at the corner. Mhm. Um but they kind of placed it where you can really only honestly in my opinion you could the best viewpoint is when you're coming south on Auburn Road. That's [laughter] right. Cuz when you're coming north on Auburn Road, I don't think you can see it at all. Yeah, it's behind you at the back of it. Yeah,

it's behind you. Um but they have one at the at at the corner there. Plus, they have a second one further down at their entrance on Discovery. No. Yeah. On the Stub Street. It's actually Yeah. No one knows this name of the street, but it's actually Discovery. Um, so that's another corner alert. They they took advantage of that. We can do the one on Discovery at the main entrance, and then we'll put the other one kind of try to get the attention of the people at the corner at the other street. Okay.

But should we allow them to combine it and do 150%? I don't know. Maybe we don't. Maybe they still have to comply with the the same sign area as as as if they were just going to do one. [clears throat]

Now, my last question I think for the day or maybe not. Um, [clears throat] I'm looking at seven additional area for large lots. Do we define a large lot? I I think we do under um 7A. So for every basically we're saying for every um [clears throat] 20 lineal feet of lot frontage greater than 200 square feet 200 feet

you get that increase. So if your your lot has more than 200 foot frontage so you're ex 220 foot of frontage then you get five extra square feet. Mhm. So it's based on the front. So we don't care how deep it Okay. Okay. This is based on Yeah.

It's a little different like so for the Ry like you're thinking like with the wall signs we're talking about the location of the building in relationship to the street, right? to the further back the the larger sign. Right now, with this, we're talking about a freestanding sign. And the the longer that somebody has to drive past your property, they're say, you know, if you have a large amount of frontage, you in front of your shopping center, let's say, then there then the resolution is saying you can have a larger sign then.

Okay. [clears throat] Okay. Are you is the rest of the board kind of generally okay with these or do we do we want to relook at some of these allowances? I mean this is the time to kind of if anyone else has concerns about them, we should talk about them now. That way if we need to make changes, I'm happy to make some changes. [snorts] No, I'm I'm good so far. Okay. Yeah, I still find it difficult to even Okay. Yeah. I I Mhm.

Yeah. Okay. If I had a an example of each one, I would be f I would be right much better off than what I am right now. I I agree. Yeah. She would have to make a hundred of those pictures and stuff for us to go through each photoshop. This is 150%. Yeah. Right. Yeah. No, [laughter] we're not going to do that. And and it's been there for and and the the 2014. Yeah. But the way that I did work and you got to realize I work at a power plant, a nuclear power plant.

If we said 150 ft, I'd have to get the basis for that 150 ft. Mhm. And I'd have to I'd have to have it in another document because I'd have to verify each paragraph. So that's my mindset. And I can understand your mindset working at a nuclear power plant. Yes. Because that does make a difference regarding distance location. A little more technical than science. Very much so.

Believe me, I I have spent many of nights there trying to figure out why did you do this? because the guy and and I was one of the guys back in the home office doing the doing the bases and I I can tell you stories after stories but that's that's neither here or there. M I can sympathize with you cuz they they were one of my clients for many years and I've been to that place out there and it's amazing what's being done. But how careful you have to be too. Oh yeah.

Very much so. [clears throat] on page 30.14. Okay. F window signs. The maximum permitted area for both temporary and permanent signs placed in or painted on a window shall be 50%. Do we need to change painted to apply? Thank you. You're welcome. I can sleep better tonight. [laughter]

And what did you say we were going to do with a bull sign, [snorts] Heather? You say we wanted [clears throat] We have that in section J right here. That's what we decided on a few work sessions ago. Yes. That was something different that was not a carryover from Oh. Oh, is that all we're saying? Yeah, that was Yeah. Yes. [snorts]

I may need to take a look at the table. How how big is Verizon sign? Square footage or height? Either one. I think if I remember correctly, it it was 30 feet tall. Okay. And 100 or 120 square feet. I know we talked about that at a previous So, it meets work session. Yeah. But again, that's on Cryle Road. Yeah. Right. Now, with this, we were allowing them if it if the parcel about I90, right? Yeah. But whenever we're talking a pole sign, I always think about Verizon. I know, right? [laughter] Yeah. I just automatically go to Verizon.

Yeah. Okay. Large campuses. And I'll tell you what, after we get through 30.06 06. Oh jeez. How long is it? How long is it? It's not too bad. Let's go 30.06 and call it a night. Okay. No comments. [laughter] I I just have to comment that we've only done this one time when Auburn Career Center um on their campus. They came in front of the commission several years ago

um just because they have so many parcels in different buildings and there was no way the zoning was going to allow them. This resol this resol the sign regulations just did not work for them regarding what do they want to do for rebranding the campus really and to try to be consistent with signage throughout. Anybody have any comments all on zoning commission review?

Only thing I would say, and I just thought of this, is we probably need to maybe add some kind of fee to the schedule for that. Um because I don't unless you because I think the LA when we did it, we did we weren't able to charge them anything to come in front of you. I don't know if you guys care about that or not. um maybe we don't need a fee for that, but there was no we don't even have an application per se nor a fee um for that process. So,

I mean, they still pay the zoning permit fees, so you know, when they if they get approved, obviously they they have those fe fees, so maybe it's not necessary to have a fee to come in front of the board. Um, but just so you're aware, currently on the fee schedule, there's no fee for them to come and get this designation

um or review from this Mhm. [cough] I don't think we need a fee. Okay. You want to do 3007? It's only 3/4 of a page. Then [snorts] we'll stop there.

No comment. [snorts and clears throat] define what? Oh yeah, I had a few comments here on six and seven 30.07 changeable copy signs. Uh 6 and 7 EMC illumination.

Mhm. and says any and then in seven says any EMC again I'm talking semantics I say all [snorts] instead of any down on eight. I had to look this up. What's a knit? What is it?

Oh, I forget. I looked it up [laughter] two month or a month and a half ago. Never never seen that term. seen lumens is it has something to do with illumination of course but I did not know what it was. We can find out soon.

Google [snorts] It's a unit of brightness, right? I don't know. Um like uh some of the lighting I don't know if you have this I apologize but in some zoning resolutions talks about lightings in lumens right? Um is that a way of measuring is a brightness.

Okay. I wonder if that's the same.

Yeah. Lumen brightness. Yes. [clears throat] To quantify the illuminance or brightness of a screen. A lot of other definitions of a knit. Okay, those were one one candela per square meter. I have it here. One net is one candela per square meter.

[clears throat] So, I guess we can Whoever submits a a uh changeable copy sign, I don't know what it is. So, well, the um the professional sign companies that design those and yeah, they'll have all of that information available.

They'll tell you how many loans, how bright the sign is. It's a unit of measurement for brightness [clears throat] up under four. I thought it would be nice to say transition time between messages andor message frame shall be instantaneous. that is or i.e. no scrolling messages. I thought that would be a nice addition. [snorts] Any other comments on 30.07 07.

So you want to add that you're what you just said. You want to add that to that phrase? It's already said in number five, though. The following EMC display features and functions are prohibited. Continuous scrolling and or traveling. Oh, okay. Thank you. flashing, spinning, rotating or it's in there. Yeah, it's in there already. Okay. It's already stated there. Thank you. All right. Good catch. Good catch. [sighs] Okay, we're going to We're good. Call it quits. And I have a motion to adjourn.

Before Mr. Sure. There's only a few pages left, but this I just want to bring up one question perhaps for the report and and Heather under 3010 the signs exempt from regulations the exempt signs [clears throat] that are exempt the public authority. Um um I live on a boulevard. I don't know how many live on a boulevard, but that's the the boulevard area. The island is in the right ofway. The public rightway.

We're not regulating anything in the public rightway. They're all that's exempt because anything in the public rightway private part is not putting a sign even though they sometimes do, right? I mean, they throw them in public right away. So, do do we [clears throat] do we re zoning doesn't regulate? That's probably the uh sheriff putting something in the public rightway. Well, so the township rightaways would be under the the service department.

Service department. Correct. Yes. On a residential. Yeah. Township rightway. Yes. But if someone applied for a zoning permit and came to my office and like, well, I'm going to put this sign like in the boulevard. In the [clears throat] boulevard, I would have to deny it because it does not meet the regulations which state that the sign has to be set back. A setback from the property lines and obviously on property. Yeah. Got it. Yeah. And what we have proposed does not allow for that type of sign. Yeah. Got it. Um

and I know we have some and actually um it may be desirable for some residential developments to have that boulevard and put the sign there. Um, and actually Blackmore Estates initially when they came into um the county to get their plat approved, they had it set up like a boulevard and one of the comments I had during preliminary plan was we don't allow your gateway sign to be located in the rightway. So, they changed the design eliminating the boulevard and put landscape easements on the adjacent sublotss. Okay.

So, they could have, you know, maybe came in front of the the township and asked for a variance. Um, or they could have politicked the township to maybe change the regulations or something like that. Um, you know, right? Or we could change it going through the process that we are now that will allow like a permanent freestanding sign in the rightway. Got it. Thank you. Thank you. Clarifies pretty soon. Uh the other qu since we we reviewed flags and banners creating the new section is it appropriate to have this incorpor the new section incorporated into for the for the January meeting [snorts] the cleaner the flags and banners.

Uh yes I can do that. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't make any of the changes yet because I knew we were still going through this and to save everybody. [laughter] Yeah. I guess I was asking Mr. who went through that. I think we're okay with the creating that new section. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. [clears throat] So, for the next meeting, I can um make the other changes that were discussed at the last meeting as well. I know there were a few uh changes that I've noted in here that I can I can do.

I can find the right area to put this new flag section and make all the updates on that. And then I can send in your packets then if you'd like the um same thing a redline copy and then the c the the copy with the changes accepted and then for next month we can pick back up starting in 3008 if the board wishes. That would be helpful. So because we also had attachment A from the last meeting. Yep. That had the new definition for a permanent sign. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So I can incorporate that circle too. Okay, that's all I had, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

Okay. [clears throat] Uh, old business number two has been tabled until July 2026 or before, no later than. Okay. Next meeting is January 6, 2026. big time. Wow. Motion to adjurnn. I make a motion to adjourn the meeting. I second.

All in favor? I opposed. Abstain. We're journed. I think