Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Um, I'm going to call to order this meeting of the Concord Township Zoning Commission for Tuesday, October the 7th. Uh, let us stand. Honor the country with pledge of allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you everyone. Uh Heather, if we could have a roll call please. Mr. Schindler present. Mr. Terako present. Mr. Bortell here.

And Mr. Ivalise

here. Uh our hopefully our our chairman Hyram is enjoying a night off or wherever he's he's doing well. And uh thank you Ron for coming in uh uh to sit in. Uh and unfortunately Mr. Peterson is taken ill and uh isn't joining us this this evening. Our um first order of business is approval of the minutes and I'm sure each of you have read it extensively and thoroughly particularly the minutes from June and we have the June uh 3rd we will take under consideration now June 3rd 2025 please any comments on the minutes of June 3rd

no comments for me sir no Mr. Chairman no comments from Mr. chairman. If not, can I have a motion? Make a motion to approve the minutes uh meeting minutes from June 3rd, 2025. I second. We have a motion and a second to approve the minutes of June 3rd, 2025. All in favor say I. I. I. All opposed. June 3rd minutes uh 2025 stand approved. Uh minutes of September the 2nd, 2025. Same disposition. Motion. Mr. Chairman, I so move we accept the minutes of September 2nd, 1925 and 2025. 1925.

2025. You've been on the board a long time. Mr. Chairman, I was not here for that meeting, but I did read through them. Can I uh vote in favor of approval of the meeting minutes? Yes, you can. Yes, you can. All right. Very good. Uh, so we have a motion and a second to approve the minutes of September 2nd, 2025. Uh, all in favor say I. I. The motion was made. Did we motion? The motion. Okay. I'm sorry. I corrected the year. Sorry. So, you can tell me where we're here. I was in September. I missed the whole month. So, yes. I Yeah. But you're here today. I am. All right. All in favor say I. I.

Not opposed. The September 2nd, 2025 minutes stand approved. Um, uh, members, uh, next order of business is a correspondence. Um, do we have any correspondence to report here this evening? Not for me, Mr. Chairman. I've had no correspondence. No correspondence. And I have none either. Um, zoning inspector report. Heather, you have the floor.

Be pretty brief. Um, just a quick review of the September uh zoning department activity. During the month of September, we processed 31 zoning permit applications and collected approximately $4,600 in fees. The majority of the permits were for residential projects, three new single single family dwellings. We also issued the permit for the new commercial plaza, Longwood Plaza, that was approved uh last year on Kyle Road at Hunting Lake in front of the water tower there. Um if you recall, Ralph Victor Construction is going to put their offices there. Um they do have a couple other tenant spaces um available, but they don't have tenants um determined for those spaces yet.

Um also during the month of September, we were busy doing um inspections. We did 93 zoning permit inspections and issue 25 certificate of zoning compliances. Um last month too at the BZA, they had one uh variance application for a residential house on uh Hermitage. The property owner requested a variance for a sideyard setback on an accessory building um down to uh six foot sideyard rather than a 10 and that was approved. That's it. Thank you. Anything else? Any questions for the zoning inspector? Thank you, Heather. You're welcome. Appreciate it.

Um next order of business. Oh, public participation. Do we have anyone wish to speak to the board? Sir, please. Uh come to the podium. Uh name and address please for the record.

My name is Vince Ria. My address is 6536 Ravena Road. I'm here on uh encouragement from uh Ron Peterson or Rich Peterson from talking to him on social media. I've had an ongoing problem for seven years in my property. Um some of this some of these actually the previous trustees all the current trustees your zoning department and a letter was sent in May to your legal department about this issue. Um, I have a guy who's occupying an unoccupied house. Um, he's running a business out of there and he uses it for social events. On the week of October, no, September, let's see, Septe what is it? September. Four weeks ago, he had three parties in a row. On that Sunday, his party started at 6:00. At my doorstep, I measured with a decibel meter on my phone 102 dB at my doorstep. I've had the sheriff out many, many times. um they can't do anything because your laws per permit them to have noise until 11:00 at night. Um however, if it was in a vehicle and it was 100t away and the kick can't exceed 78 dB. So therefore, I've written a draft and I have copies for everyone here. I would like you guys to consider changing your nuisance noise ordinance law so at least the sheriff's department can enforce the days that I have to be locked in my house for 5 hours at 102 dB at over 400 ft away because they're having parties. Now, to contrast this party that went on, um there were people quarter mile down the road that heard about it and we're talking about it in social media. And then two weeks ago, the gun club across the street had a party with 350 people in two July bags and we heard nothing and they are just as close as the house next door to me where they held their party. So, I'm at my wit's end. Um I've dealt with Paul Melki, Chris Galloway. I call every time there's an issue over there. I text Carl Dondorfer. Um, in May I had my lawyer draft a letter. We sent it to the legal department. Heather was copied. No response. Um, they're still

their commercial business out of there. You smell fumes and paint. They always maintain their equipment there. And despite my trying to get action, I took it to the social media. I've also taken it to the media. And that's when I met Mr. Peterson who said, "No, bring it to here." So, this is what I've done. And to help you guys out, like I said, I wrote a draft on what I think you guys can do for common sense at least. If I can't deal with the business, you guys can deal with the noise ordinance and I can have some type of legal action for they can be arrested or whatever for going on because I shouldn't have be locked in my house 3 days a week because they're having parties over with full sound systems and bands and I can't even think. Now, if my dogs were outside going crazy like they were do inside my house, I could have gotten a ticket for my dogs. So, you have to think about this noise ordinance and please, please change something cuz I don't want to have to move. But that's my next option. And I've been here 11 years and I do participate in the community. Several people here know me and know what I do for the community. So I just don't want to have to move. But I'm at my wits end. Thank you. Um Mr. Ria, thank thank you. But we're most receptive to what you have uh for suggestion. I'll pass this out. Um may I ask please before you um so this is strictly or you're related to noise. That one's no use of prop

because you guys the problem is with the business and I have police report after police reports where I've had the Sheff Sheriff's deputy walked down there with their body cams to actually show that they were doing business. And at one point last October, I have a a police report where the deputy walked all the way down there and they had six commercial lawnmowers on Jacks oil changes in their backyard but claimed it was personal business. And uh obviously um zoning and Carl Dondorfer never responded to that. And then when they pulled the police report and looked at that footage, so you guys had taken this person to court before and he had a $500 fine and he laughs about it and he said, "I'll pay another $500 fine to keep doing his business there." He does not live there. Nobody lives there. The house is unoccupied. His sister owns the house and the house is not even livable conditions. I know this because when it went up for sale, my brother tried to buy it and it had no electricity or plumbing at the time.

If I may ask, I'm sorry, sir. I You said it a little quickly for me. What's your What's your address again? 6536 Revena Road. 6536. I'm the one with the white farm stand and people call it the old pork place. Oh, no. Yes. Yes. Yes. Everybody knows it as the old workplace. Yeah. Okay. So, well, well, I first of all, I appreciate you coming to and I appreciate Mr. Peterson suggesting it. I do too. certainly uh um take it under advisement here particularly and and thank you for going through the effort here the different the different zoning ordinances for the vehicle versus the home and like I said I

I like it here and I like what I where I live and I like what I do there but you know I can't keep being subjected to to this kind of stress. Applaud you for your patience. Well, I do. Trust me, I don't have patience. Heather knows. Well, that's I mean, look at Leic took it. You You're in front of us now. Yes. You know, and a lot of people handle things a lot differently sometimes and you didn't. And you're I applaud you for doing it the right way. I mean that. So, it was all sincerity. It's not falling on deaf ears, pun intended or not. Um uh so I think we'll Yeah, I could with John. We'll see what we can do. Thank you. Yep. Thank you for coming. Thank you for coming. Sure.

Uh any other member, any other public participation wish to speak? uh to the board before we move into new business. Uh there being none, um we'll move into uh new business. Uh on our agenda this evening is a uh a couple items for new business. The first is a site plan review application number 62 submitted by Primrose Schools for for a proposed child daycare center to be located on Auburn Road on parcel number 08- A-20-0000-005-0. Uh representatives of the applicant, please come to the podium. Um, and as you do before I ask you for your name, um, uh, I need to advise you that, um, we are not a full board here this evening, uh, of five, we are board of four. Um, you have the option to table for next month. Uh, because under under our composition here, we will need three of the four for approval. So wanted to let you advise you of an option to table or continue.

I think we're ready to continue. Very good. Very good. Um if so if you could state your name u and address for the record and uh uh a presentation on your project, please.

Sure. Uh my name is Reed Cookie with Stonefield Engineering and Design. Uh address is 555 South Old Woodward Sweet 12L, Birmingham, Michigan48009. Uh with me we have uh Jason Lang with Primrose uh can answer any operational questions. Um here before you tonight uh for uh planning approval of a Primrose daycare facility um off of Auburn Road. Um Primrose is a national uh branded daycare and we uh seek uh high-end communities such as this to uh bring in uh child care which is a growing need in the uh around the country. Uh what you have here is a uh 13,000 foot uh facility. I know the uh there's some discrepancies between the architectural and site plan. We'll make sure that that is uh addressed. The uh the building got a little bit smaller um as we went through it with the landlord here, but um we're going for a uh approximately 13,000t building uh with access off of Auburn. We have 69 parking spaces where 67 are required. We've been working with uh Heather and the uh township staff um over the last few months in order to kind of hone in a lot of the details that you see here. Um we have uh a few different play areas in the rear of the building um for the different age groups. Uh all meet state level requirements. Um as well as a few different uh turnarounds. There will be grass pa for the uh fire access. We've been working with the fire marshal uh quite intently on this one because he has some concerns that you guys have seen in the letter that we feel like we've assuaged um as well as a uh emergency only access onto Auburn Road which I know is kind of the uh the largest um curveball in this whole whole application. Otherwise, we meet all ordinance standards on um everything else here operationally. would be happy

to explain uh how we operate but generally hours of operation are uh 6 to 6. Um that changes slightly depending on the uh the franchisee but that's the general hours of operation and uh Monday to Friday. So a great transitional use from the residential um uh lots that are close as they commute to go to work and do any of the commercial activities that are along Auburn there. Um it's kind of the you know we say this is a a perfect primrose site just because it is that that great transitional use that uh you know our uh customers like to like to see. Um you happy to answer any other questions you guys may have uh regarding the uh the site layout and access. Um happy to be here.

Well thank you again. I'm sorry your name Reed. Reed. Yes. Thank you Mr. Reed. Uh or first name? Reed is my first name. First's last name. Just call me Reed. We're friends. Well, not yet. A lot easier that way. Um, uh, before we, uh, get to some questions here, you mentioned in your presentation franchisee. Yes. So, Primrose is not operating the facility. So, Jason, try to explain a little better than I can, but

sure. Um, Jason Lang, uh, we're also friends. So, um, so yeah, so this and all of our locations, which is now over 530 nationwide, are all owned by local franchises and operated by them, generally folks that live in the community. This particular uh franchisee um has several schools uh in the greater Cleveland area, so they're not uh the one in Beachwood is probably the closest. We just opened that. not not not that long ago. So, and same a franchise owner, same operator. Okay. So, so these franchises are pre-qualified, I presume, to do what?

Yeah. Taking care. Yeah. And it's obviously there's state standards. Um there's a considerable uh financial obligation as well to kind of to to build it. So, it's not we're doing some vetting before we get here. Very good. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's it's intended to have somebody in the community that knows the community and knows the area. You know, we don't want to be a operator down in Atlanta where they're headquartered and, you know, not be responsive to, you know, community needs.

Uh, thank you for that answer. Appreciate that. I mean, wasn't wasn't aware of how that operationally would occur. Um, I'm going to defer to the board here for questions and comments. Uh and then to uh well before I do perhaps uh I'll go to Heather. Uh Heather's obviously has been involved with the with this in great detail um and actually provided to us this evening a revised staff report as well as an amended or a new additional letter from the fire department. Uh Heather, could I ask you to summarize your staff report please for the board?

For the staff report. Um sure. Um, and the applicant does have a copy of the staff report. We're looking at the same one. Yeah. Um, the one one letter that we did receive today from our uh, deputy fire chief Mike Fedell. I can hand you that. I just got that this afternoon. Um, but um, typical in my staff report, I always start out with just some basic uh, information about what's happening on the site. Uh, a narrative about, you know, the use, the parking lot. And it's very common as you know that we would have a conditional approval on typically on on on these projects. Um under just talking about the site plan review right now um and as you can see there are uh 13 conditions that I'm recommending for the zoning commission to consider. One of them really the first one is kind of uh something I think we need to explore maybe a little bit with the applicant this evening. that um there's been some mixed I think feelings about the um how to provide the correct fire access uh to the site. Um so the one that's shown on the plan is one of the alternatives that does suit the needs of the fire department. Um as you can see in their letter uh their last review letter dated September 22nd. you know, if the design that is approved, that is shown on the plan um is approved by the commission that they will be looking for some additional um things for the applicant to comply with regarding capacity of the grass pavers for the fire truck and making sure that those areas are plowed in the winter and delineated with markers so that those um grass paved areas can be um accessed if they need to plus some other things in here. But one of the other alternatives that we were um trying to encourage or see if it was a possibility was possibly getting a second way off the site to the northeast kind of behind the building.

Um with some initial conversations, it sounded like they may have reached out uh to the property owner. Um but uh and it but I didn't get a we didn't get a final answer as to whether or not how that went you know um do they how far did that conversation go? Was there any ability to to make that possibly work? Um okay. So is that a local property I'm sorry. Is that a local property owner that owns the adjacent property? Uh, no, no, no. They're uh it was it sold in the last couple years. I think the property owner is I I think it was Miss No,

I can't remember what state it's We have a decent relationship, him and I can email about different tenants coming in, so he's accessible. Um, the new property owner, so I I have communicated with them in the past. Um, but uh he's not local. He's out of state. Okay. Um there were some other you know small changes but as some other recommendations that I had on on the site plan. Um and then um but you guys can go through those with the applicant see if those are things that you that they can agree to comply with or you know get you know discuss those with the applicant and kind of see where that goes. Good. Thank you. Heather is this Ron the Normandy property that we're speaking of.

Yes. Yes. The property to the northeast is um commonly referred to as the normal property if you're a local. Um but it's actually owned by Bedrock. It's a Yeah, we do, don't we? Yeah. So, yes. I wish it was still done. Did that to make things easier. Um, all right. Um, is that all you have for So, I'm I'm going to solicit uh Frank first for any questions, comments for the applicant here before we Well, actually, he covered Heather covered the questions I was going to have. Okay. So, I got my answers. Okay. Feel free to chime in as we proceed here as well.

Yeah. I have one question. This might be more operational and and and more of a confusion. I know that you meet I think the parking meets the requirement, correct? Yes. Yes, it does. But when I was reading it, you have 212 typically about 212 cap capacity for 212 what in 69 parking spaces and I'm not I'm not challenging. So just I just want to get some context to what I'm reading and understanding. Okay. And one of the things I read in your it says that you know your one of your um protocols is that parents come in park and then bring their kids kids in. If and I'm just disparity wise just help me wrap my head around this. If there's 69 parking spaces and the capacity for 212, what is your typical what is your typical student count? If the capacity is 212, is it 212?

So, and if it is, it's okay. Don't right or wrong answer here, guys. I mean,

so generally what we if we have full capacity, if we have all 212 on a day-to-day basis, about 80% of those students will be there, whether it's vacation, sickness, parents take them out early, things like that. And then another thing that's very different from, you know, most schooling is it's a rolling drop off. It's not a designated bell system. And so we've done plenty of studies across all, you know, 500 sites where the maximum drop off um vehicles that we have there around 17 or 18 vehicles at any peak time. That's that morning 8 8:00 a.m. rush, you know, we have about eight, you know, 18 cars that enter the parking lot to drop kids off. And typical drop off time in the morning is around 6, seven minutes. You know, their parents are hustling. They get to work, they drop off, they walk the kids in and come back out. So 69 parking spaces is well over parked for what we need for something of this facility. Generally we need 40 to 50. So

I'm going to tell you why I asked that. Because one of the things in the fire department's report was they're worried about congestion. If something happened at that drop off time, the congestion could be cumbersome for them. Right. So it was a twofold question. It wasn't a trick question. Yeah. It was just so that I could understand reading that and feeling a little bit better for myself about the the fire department's concern of that congestion in that spot at that time because at that intersection is a pretty busy intersection between that time and I I mean I've raised kids so I understand how dropout can be. It's a blast. Um but um now that that that makes makes a lot more sense and can put at ease there a little bit.

Absolutely. And like I said 69 parking spaces well over parked. Obviously parents are going to park near the front. We instruct all of the uh the teachers, they'll park towards the rear and their cars don't generally move during those peak times obviously. So, um the the point of congestion that the fire marshall is really concerned about is that that kind of southside um along uh you know where it kind of dead ends. He's worried if a a fire truck were to go park there, get on site, park there, and break down, how will another truck get in and out of the site? You know, the cars back there really for teachers. there's not parents that are parking there to walk all the way around to the front entrance because there is only one entrance to the the school for drop off. So, you know, generally operationally that, you know, wouldn't wouldn't be a concern. There'd be plenty of of additional parking and maneuverability of the of the drive aisles.

Um, let's see. You had in the staff report about moving the landscaping away from the building and put on the other side of the wall. Mhm. Funny. Was that one? Well, we we do agree on a lot of things. I'm interested about that one um pulling that landscape away from the wall. But maybe you can explain that for us, Heather, a little bit more. Oh, the the 5ft um planting bed. The way that the zoning resolution is actually written, it's supposed to be between um the walkway is considered part of the building. It's supposed to be on the outside of the walkway between the parking lot. They originally kind of had it outside like the fence. So around we prefer it the way that the the how it's written in the report. That's how we initially had it. I think we

That makes that was easy. I think we misinterpreted when the initial misinterpret came out and so we put it by the building and that's why I think the idea is to get it outside cuz there's a sidewalk with a fence and then you get the landscaping outside of there that kind of helps break up some of those elements so you don't have a fenced in landscaped area. So we're you want plants by your building anyways. But that I think that's excellent. I I miss I read it the same way. So, um, and the only other one I had, and I apologize if I'm being cumbersome here with my questions, was the, uh, was the sidewalk. And it's on private property. And you're, you're requesting the property owner to, um, easement. Give an easement. Is that correct? So, the public sidewalk?

Yeah. I think it was make it 6 ft wide and put an easement. You know, we're we're fine with that. Dedicate an easement. Yeah. I don't I don't think there's any Usually in these situations there'd be like a rideway dedication. doesn't seem like that's what the county wants. So, we'll put a public easement in there and that way as Auburn gets redeveloped, we can connect the sidewalk through to, you know, it's perfectly fine. We're we're happy to do it. Okay. Are we going to put a timeline on that sidewalk? Yeah. No, it's Well, it'll be installed when the building is John's intent at humor. Just ignore that. So, I'm sorry. That's all I have. My walking my uh my That was that was it for my questions at this time. Okay. Thank. Thanks, John. Ron, please.

So, talk a little bit more about the drop off and pick up. So, the parents to come in, park, take their children out, walk their kids in. Are the start time staggered?

There's no designated start time. You can drop your kids off whenever. Um, it's really just when the parents are, you know, eligible to to drop them off. Again, our peak times are generally 7 to 9. You know, think of of work time. So, you'll get a few kids that get dropped off right at 7:00. It peaks around 8 8:15 and that time we have, you know, we've we've shown time and time again, it's about 17 cars that come in in that 15 minute window to drop kids off in the peak time, but otherwise it's like kind of a bell curve of of drop off and then pick up pickup in the evening is a much longer bell curve because some parents pick up at 4, others pick up right at the end of the day. So, it's a little bit flatter at that time. Do you anticipate or have you had any where the cars are stacking, you know, waiting to get in to get to the parking spot?

No, we have. Do you ever have where everybody wants to drop their kids off at once? No, we we've had we get this question a lot. No, it's again just because it's not a bell system and everyone's not rushing to get there by a certain time. Um people are just going there when it fits in with their work schedule with their you know schedule for drop off and then you know when we have over you know 45 spaces is kind of the minimum we look for. When we have over that there's plenty of parking for parents to park quickly and get in. You know again think of your early morning routine. You're not going to sit there and be like I have to get the spot right in front of the building. I'm going to go five spaces over that's empty and park and get my kid in there cuz I got to get to work. I'm late for a meeting. things like that.

So, the reason I ask is I live near another daycare and um they don't park. I get it. They come in and their security system is they pull up, teacher comes out, takes a student. Right. But that so that does stack up out onto the Yeah, that's that's not how this is. The teachers don't come and get the kids. It's you walk your kids into their classroom and then sign them in and then leave. So, you're parked in the space. You're not There's no drop off area. There's no loop. There's nothing like that.

So with with 67 parking spaces like we'll have 24 25 employees like so there's 40 spaces that will be open at any given time. So I mean that it alone if 40 families and generally folks that that come to our schools generally have more than one child there. So it's not to your point 200 and some people coming at once. I'd say probably 50 60% have more than one. So that I mean we're still looking at at any given point we probably have like 40 plus parking spaces that are available for everybody that would be coming in.

Yeah. Lot lot of uh you know multiple kids coming to the same they're not going to drop off two different places. So it's a How many projects do you guys have that have one entrance point? Um currently it's a g I'm sure you

Yeah about 70%. I mean that's you know two entrance points is you know on those corner lots or we can get one off each road but you know with current access standards and road frontage getting two entrances off the same road just generally doesn't meet you know any sort of county or DOT separation standards. So very rarely can we get that unless we get a a corner lot that that allows for it with separation from an intersection. So um this is more of the norm. I know there are a few out there that have two, but those are again more unique than than not. So about 70% would would have a singular entrance with a you know emergency turnaround at the end of it. Ron please.

So what to talk about the the emergency access drive. Um

yep. So again this was brought up after quite a few conversations with the fire marshal. Um you know with the capacity there having two points of egress um was something he was adamant about. other locations, you know, we are fully sprinklered, have alarm systems which um you know, some fire marshals allow in lie of a second entrance. He was very concerned with it. So, we've been working with him about that second entrance. Again, the location that I think most people would prefer is getting an easement from the property of the north. We actually did reach out as we indicated um and had some preliminary conversations. uh really tough to get them to continue to respond. And kind of the last correspondence we had was um you guys need to move on without us here. We don't really see a a way to to move forward. We they didn't want the traffic. They didn't want you know the uh the easement there. So that that's kind of where we where we've left it and haven't really heard from them since.

What would be the There's no traffic. That's what I was going to ask. Well, our traffic going through their site. They this would be emergency only. I know. But they there was some concerns about what that meant and gated just like your show.

Yeah. Yeah. They he just wasn't very interested in it and just told us hey you guys need to move on without us. Um so in lie of that um you know to get the second egress he said I need a 13t wide emergency only access somewhere else. Um we went with a grass paver option because again we don't want it to look like an entrance. You know we'll put the signage up that the county requires that the fire marshall requires. We'll gate it. will do whatever they need. Um, this is the minimum that they need, but we didn't want it to look like an entrance where somebody could be confused. Again, it's it's grass pa. It won't look like anything other than just a pretty flat area that comes off of Auburn there with with signage and a gate. Um, and so, you know, we felt that this was a great middle ground to provide him the access he needs while also not having anything confusing out there for, you know, uh, regular vehicles that that may think that that's a driveway of some sorts to to pull into. Um, so that meets all standards. I know there's a couple comments about making sure it's load rated. Um, we have details that we've used in the past for these grass pavers that show they can support, you know, 50,000 uh pound vehicles, which is what they need to be rated for. Um, you know, we'll make sure that we have truck turning shown that the trucks can enter and exit. And again, and the fire marshall knows this, that's obviously not his first point of egress either. For him, it was a a secondary point for maybe a second truck or if something was blocking the the first one. and and that's kind of kind of where the middle ground was. But we'd be happy to, you know, make sure that again this meets all county standards, meets the fire standards. You know, we're we want to work with with everybody on this and we're we're trying to, you know, find the best solution to to get everybody happy.

But the second access does for you is your main entrance fire department use every day coming in and out whatever they need to do. If something would to happen bigger, right, you have to look at it as all hazards, just not a fire. Yeah. And then that's when that second access will be used because it allows apparatus to get in. It allows another way out. So something

tragic happens where you need to transport several people, right? It's easier to use that the ambulances come in and then they they go back out as they pick up people. Um, and that comes from experience. I've been at daycarees where we have had to transport several people, children with only one way in. And actually, it was on Auburn Road, just another side of Auburn Road. And um it was very difficult to do that, right? You're trying to manage parents coming in, children going out, and it it was just tough to do. So, that's why um the fire department Yeah. No, and we're we're all for it. We're not we're not trying to push back on it. We just, you know, again,

not just help to explain to everybody else the No, absolutely. We're we're we're definitely trying to be a minimal there. Just trying. So, it looks like then you're going to

go. So, I I I'll comment on the the property of the north gentleman's uh that people who own it. They're out of New York State. I've had, you know, reached out to them. Our brokers kind of gave us the introduction, let them know what we wanted to do, had their attention. their attention kind of waned pretty quickly and as Reed said, you know, the last correspondence we had from them like if you need an answer then you have to move on without us. That that's what they said. I understand why it's needed and quite honestly I think it probably works better just from but they said no and I have to take that that that was a no and I can't just do a pretty please. I can do that, but whatever that would have cost me now with a pretty please is going to cost a lot more. And I understand why. I think we tried to come up work with the fire marshal to to get something that

hey, if if if it's not A, he'd be comfortable with B. Um, and quite honestly, like that shouldn't be like we won't look to ever get that as a full access because quite honestly it doesn't work. But for emergency purposes, that that does the trick. And if something if there is a concern about traffic coming in and out if something that significant happens there then that road becomes the fire department and police departments right then that whole area gets closed down and then

yeah exactly and and I think the fire marshall has some suggested signage you know language to put up obviously we'll put that up u we've talked to him gate with a knockbox so only they have access to it things like that so it's just you know again a very emergency only access. We want it to not look like anything other than just grass and then and then you know it has a has a secondary purpose. Thank you. Yes. Anything else? Ron, no. Mr. Can I just want to um clarify um with the

with the gate um in the Knox box in the um fire chief and I were talking about that and in his September 22nd letter, he actually would prefer not to have a gate there with a with a lock box because the fact one of the reasons is that they're the only one that has the key. Sheriff doesn't have the key. No one else in mutual aid wouldn't have a key. So then then what we have you do the access drive, we would not want the gate there. Just the signage. Just the signage and you can coordinate that. It's not going to look like an entrance. No one's going to It's just going to kind of look like the rest of the grass that crosses the sidewalk there, but it'll be a a grass paver that's loaded for them to use with a sign.

The hatching can be a little deceiving on the plane. Um I'm going to I have a few comments but just to segue again not to belabor the emergency access is given your uh site design is it even feasible to get access to the north is it feasible? Um yeah I mean you're going to do significant design change accommodate it. Well we have a our storm water basin is back there so that would that would make it challenging. we would have to change our storm water approach um entirely um in order to make that work. Um

I haven't looked at the grading back there. I'm sure we could make it work if it was you know that was the option that was allowed to us or you know we we got the easement and could could make it work but you know there the building layout wouldn't change but we'd have to change some of the the underground options there. And then um again I I we don't really have the ability to make that connection. So, the conversation with the property owner to the north wasn't it wasn't to a specific location. For instance, towards the front of the building as opposed to the rear of the building.

It it had to be the back of the building fire marshal. He said he needed to be able to because we we initially wanted to do something towards the front. He said that doesn't that doesn't assuage my concerns of h having somebody be able to get around if the truck broke down in the front entryway. I guess you would say. So that was his he needs to be able to get to that southern drive. Okay. Yeah, we did throw that out there and that was kind of the initial thought was, okay, can we just do something small up front and then before we even could present that to the property owner, the fire marshall said, "No, it has to be in the rear." Okay.

Um, well, I'm going to begin with comments first of all to uh complement the plans. They're well prepared. the engineering. Appreciate it. Site design. Now I'll give the challenges. Okay. Did you consider other sites than this corner here in Concord? This was the only one that we looked at. This was the only one. Um, you are aware of the district this is being located in, let alone the proximity to the roundabout. what Capitol Parkway in the capital district

conceivably could be in terms of development under the current zoning directly across the street right around the roundabout. Um walkways, pedestrians, people, restaurants, shops right around that around around that corner. Uh given that did you ha I have concerns putting a daycare right there but that uh is that a concern of yours uh knowing the future development possibilities in that district? It's not really a concern because like I said the the sites that we really focus on are some of those transitional commercial areas um where you know people are using as their primary mode of transportation to businesses to places of work things like that. So this kind of commercial corridor, you know, kind of is the the start of that and that's kind of what we what we do look for. Um, you know, as far as, you know, having more people there, more more cars there. Our operations are during b during normal business hours. So having a restaurant that, you know, might be across the street and their busiest times are when we're closed. So you know, our peak times are really not when any of those other uses are are in operation. We're not open on the weekends. We're not open after six o'clock. Um, you know, we're only open when people are um going to work essentially and not not using a lot of those uh retail and you know, commercial facilities after business hours and on weekends.

So, if you didn't consider other sites, I ideally ideally what is a a perfect site for a daycare like this? 200 children with infants. A perfect site for a daycare like this would be would be on a main road would be the first would be the first property on a main road that from a neighborhood towards a commercial to a highway

highway. Yeah. So it's basically hey there's a thousand people that drive this road every day that drive right past it that are going to the the main road to go shop and go to work. So like for from operationally for primrose we don't do just sites like this like ground up. We'll go into uh existing office buildings that uh you know industrial areas and kind of do a tenant improvement to the buildings. So wherever the fact that we're here

we're we're interested in the we wouldn't be here if we didn't. We are aware of everything that's going around. Quite honestly, it's a reason why we're here because there's definitely going to be a lot of growth in this area. A lot of house top, a lot of rooftops, a lot of I mean, the hospital's right up the street. So, um, you know, that is important. And, you know, we'll we'll do a lot of different things. And wherever there's a need, which in township there there clearly is a need for for some daycare. And wherever we think it's going to, you know, where there's cars and rooftops, it works. Yeah.

The drop off park as as as my colleagues have asked about, there are multiple entrances to the building. Um, so how does a person arriving notify how how does that happen? There's multiple entrances to the building, yes, but those are all fenced in because those are points of egress from the classrooms to get to the playground areas. There's only one main entrance to the building for drop off. So pick up.

So and pickup. So there's a lot of doors, but those are just strictly from classroom to leave to get to the the sidewalk. And it's all fenced in for security. So they can walk around directly from their classroom to get to their designated outdoor play areas and back without having to walk through other classroom outside protected areas in front of the play. So you can't just drop off and walk directly in their classroom. You walk in through the front door. So that's the same uh uh black aluminum fence that goes around the playgrounds around the front Yeah. of the building. Okay. It's like a nice decorative Yeah. you know. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

So given that then this next question probably is is is alleviated. Uh there's a deep storm water basin right to the south. Yep. And could kids walk Are they going to be fenced? Yeah. They're all fenced in. They're all fenced in. Everyone's Yeah. No. There's the only time that they would ever be outside of the fence is when they're with their parent and going to their to and from their car.

Okay. All right. Okay. Um uh I think maybe that my last comment was here and and I knew of the property soils and one of the comments here from storm water is is a high groundwater table and uh and poorly drained soils. That probably is not obviously something you're aware of. Yeah. For for design um to where that tape groundwater is. Yeah. For foundations and such. Yeah, we're aware of it. Obviously, we're going to design around it and, you know, as a storm water, I think he has a comment in here about putting a liner in. So, there's, you know, that's pretty standard, especially in kind of the lake, Great Lakes region. Um, yeah, it is.

That close to 90. It is. It is that close to 90. It is. Yes. Yes. Um, on a I'm sorry. No, go ahead, John. I'm I'm 87.0 your sight line, your parapit height. Did you guys raise the parab height so you can't see the RTUs? Is that what you did? Um, I believe so. All the all the equipment is uh vertically screened. Vertically screened. Yeah. Yeah. Not on the roof, but it's vertically screened by the parapit. By the parapit. Yeah.

I thought I saw a note under like the north elevation. You can see it, right? Um, I don't think we have a sight line for the north. From the north, it's from the south and from the west. We have one from the north. Um, on a 1.0, you you can see the rooftop. Oh, you're in the you're in the Yeah, you're in the building. Yeah, I know. Listen, there's a question, so just want to get them all out. Look, I mean, I think No, it's good.

Yeah, it looks good. Okay. Yeah, we'll we'll consider that again. Um, let me ask again the board any other questions. Frank, you may No, everything I had questions I haven't been answer. No, I mean I I do not. Okay, Ron, I'm good, sir. Um, okay. So, um, this is the site plan review application. Um, uh, Bry, uh, procedurally, uh, can I defer until we do the building or should we I take a motion on the I think they're technically two separate considerations. So, two separate applications, two separate.

You can do them together, but they are two separate. Two separate. Yep. One last thing. Yeah, please. No, please. So, you have read the staff recommendations. Yes. All right. And you I'm assuming that everything that's in the staff recommendations, we're not pushing back on. They're agreeing to one question. Yep. So, as far as the fence, so typically what we do

um is we put that the decorative fence we can we typically don't if you're not going to be able to see it, but this case we're willing to do around the back on the back side. We usually have it in the interior the chain link. It's about a 4T just kind of separates the different play areas. That'd be the only way we we wouldn't do it if if it would be okay with with the with the commission. Um, you're never going to be able to see it really anyway, but if it's an issue, we can do it, but we typically don't do it on the interior, which is only three. It's three I think it's three four foot high fences inside the six

run perpendicular to the building. Yes. basically separating the four-year-olds from the three-year-olds, you know, the different different play groups and different equipment. So, yeah, I don't want to comment that there's barb wire on top, too. There's no barb wire. It's just chain link. We saved that for the rubber. You save that amongst ourselves about that, right? About chain link in the middle because I'm Yeah. Yeah. chain link concern in between. That makes sense. It makes more sense. It's softer with I totally get that. Yeah, I get that too. Yeah. Um

Heather, I know it's that's per our resolution. Um chain link is not permitted. Uh in this instance, would it be to our discretion or does it require uh does it require variance? Sorry. Um it's in the resolution without no chain link. So am I right? Yes. Yeah, that's my thought. I don't know if Bridey maybe do they have some discretion under under the design review to permit that. You have you have discretion. We do have discretion. She said thanks Brady. Thank you. Okay. Um that was one of the stipulations under the design review. All right.

So when we get to that you could amend, you know, take that off if you did not.

All right. If there's no further discussion on the site plan review application, um I'll I'll uh consider a motion for a consider a motion and in that motion we will need to stipulate uh all of the comments items enumerated in the staff report dated October the sec 7th, 2025. I'd like to make a motion then. Okay. I'd like to make a motion to accept uh unconditional approval of the site plan. Right. Um based on the following conditions number one, eliminate the proposed 13T emergency access drive gate and sign from the plans. Is that correct?

I think it was just the gate. Oh, sorry. If I may just right. Y I got clarific clarification. Uh we have many comments many storm water. My suggestion is to make this allincclusive in the motion as stipulated in the report dated October 7th and they would and they need to agree to that. Okay. That they will agree to all comments as stipulated by all agencies, departments and the staff in the report of October the 7th. Okay. Yeah, Mr. Chairman, should we modify the first staff condition, though? Because Yes.

I mean, it sounds like we've agreed to not pursue looking to the north, right? Or or Yes. Where is the commission at on that? I'm not sure. I I don't Yeah, I I was waiting for the motion. Like that is the first I was waiting for the motion. Um I'm I understand it might be a lost cause, but I I I'm not sure I got closure on that. Okay. What does the board think? we can provide staff our correspondence with them or you know to show that there's not a willingness to grant us an ement. I'm I'm thinking I not that I don't trust what you said. Yeah. No, but I get it.

But I'm not going to offend you by saying and and to to your point, once we say it, it's done, right? And we all know that. Yeah. And and I I Right. I mean, I think the the way that that comment one is written leaves the opportunity for me to make another phone call and if that's not feasible then it defers right to it. Yeah. Thank you. So, we're friends. We are not done yet. Yeah. So, John, so yes. Am I going to read all these? No. No. I don't think you have to. You

We've done this before, right? I actually had to read all of them. I think Yeah. And I'm I Okay. You want to expedate it? Yes. Yes. But it might be a good idea to at least refer to one through as provided by the staff regarding the conditions. One through. Okay, let me revise this then. Yeah.

Uh, all right. So, I'm going to make a motion to accept unconditional approval of the site plan. Right. Um, per zoning staff comments, right? and the comments from other departments and/or agencies, the Lake County Engineer, the Concord Township Fire Departments, the Lake County Storm Water Management Department, and staff recommendations as

as of October 7th, 2025 for the Primrose Schools um applicant. Very good. So we have a motion finally to to provide conditional approval. Look for a second. Mr. Chairman, I make a I approve. Second. Uh we have a motion for approval and a second. Uh roll call. Heather, please. Mr. Wartell. Yes. Mr. Teryako. Yes. Mr. Schindler. Yes. Mr. Eiffel.

Uh I'm going to qualify. I'm going to say yes. uh under the authority that we have under the zoning commission um we're here to prove site plan. I personally have reservations about this is the best use for the site but it is it is well designed it's a wellthoughtout project so I will approve as well. Thank you.

All right. Well done. Well said. Okay. Moving on. Where am I? Okay. The second item is the design review. The building the design review application number 62 submitted by Primrose Schools for proposed child child daycare center to be located on Alburn Road on parcel number 08- A-20-00-005-0. Uh so on the design review um of the building um perhaps you can overview the style design architecture albeit you're an engineer right? Yeah. Okay. Please.

I was just with our architect. So um yep. So again, you know, the uh the school that we're bringing uh Primrose, you know, we we come in and we pride ourselves when in high-end architecture. As you can see, a lot of uh elements that kind of complement that residential look that we're going for. Um I know one of the elements of the capital district is is a pitched roof. Um we kind of we we do show that with the tower element at the front, which does dominate the uh the aesthetic there. Um the rest of the, you know, roof does have a lot of awning elements and things like that that give it the um appeal that that it does have kind of that uh that roofing look that you would like to see from, you know, a residential aesthetic. Um this allows us to, you know, put the rooftop equipment up there as well as have um you know, some of the uh with the parapit some of the required screening that that we look for. Um there's a lot of elements that help break up the facade. Um you can see the vertical elements. There's some brick elements on the bottom as well. Um overall it's a really good-looking uh product. We've never had a had a complaint on on the aesthetic of it. If you if you looked up kind of the the branding that we that we go with. Um really complimentary to a lot of the residential uses like I said that we like to be to be at. How's that?

That's okay. That's everything. Okay. Didn't want you didn't want to interrupt. I appreciate um uh members, any comments, uh Frank, on the building design? None, Mr. Chairman. That's good. Okay. John, is this a typical Primrose building? This is the current prototype. Yes, prototype. This is it. And how current is this design? I think they just adopted it. What? Beginning of this year. Built anywhere else? Uh there's a couple that are that they switched to, you know, that are about to go under construction, but I don't believe that find out where the closest one is that that works. Let you guys know. Yeah. Yeah. Or even pictures. Yeah. Okay. I'll try to find pictures right now.

That'd be awesome. Um, has there been any thought, and I'm sure not because you don't have other plans, but along that um along this elevation to break up the flatness of it, uh, in lie of a pitched roof, an entire pitched roof, but a reverse gable on any of that uh, uh, any of those elevations. Uh, even it could be a faux reverse cable. There's a few different, you know, if you look at the east and west elevations, kind of the long elevations that we do have like the parapit difference in height to try to give up some of those broken elements.

That's kind of what the the architect has, you know, interpreted the best use to kind of meet in the middle there. Mhm. Okay, good question, John. Thanks, John. Ron, please. Anything is I'm sorry. And I was trying to read the I No, I I wrote one last question. Um, and I tried to read through here really quick and I couldn't see it. Is that brick? Is that um uh three-face brick or is it is it uh is it lick and stick as what I call it? But yeah, I I think it's I think it's thin brick. We call it in construction. So construction. Yeah, it's construction talk here. Sorry. I know what it is. That's what I call I apologize. It's what we call No, it's it's not. I think it's a like a thin brick. Thin brick. Thank you.

All right. I couldn't couldn't get that word out right. So that's where I went. Sir, make sure we had that recorded in the minutes. That's right. Thank you. There you go. I appreciate you looking us up. Yep. Texas. Yeah. Okay. Nice. I appreciate you looking at that. If I siding color that that's not this proposed Arctic white is white. Arctic white, right? That is probably that's probably artic with the sunset with the sunset with the sunset run. Yeah. Okay. I know there's pictures like that in here, but

a picture. Yeah, sure. Yeah. See seeing it in like actual constructed. [Applause] Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. So on the floor plan design since um classrooms like back to back with a hallway center hallway this way. Um I was only and I think you answered this earlier trying to just the takeaway from the elevation is all those doors. Mhm. It is it a necessity because of the way the floor plan is or is

it's an operational thing. Um you know it kind of helps reduce some congestion in in the hallways you know while you know classes are are moving to and from both the uh you know their own classroom to the outdoor space as well as some of the the shared experience space that we have inside. that allows, you know, a lot of the the teachers to not have to, you know, fight through to get to the same place or get to the outdoor space at the same time. Gives them their own personal egress egress to that, you know.

Um, again, we have most of the doors are, you know, they're pretty well spaced just kind of next to each other. We have that um uh decorative fence that goes around the building in that area too that helps kind of break some of that up as well as the the movement of the foundational landscaping. I It's not because of rotating kids from front to back and back to front. No. No. They're like in there all day. They're in there all day and then they can leave to go to the, you know, they they fenced in. Fenced in. Got it. It's jail. I got it. Daycare. No, it's a very that's very expensive, you know. Yeah. [Music]

Is there gates on the fencing for on the outside or is it There's certain there's a couple emergency gates. Or, you know, if if they had to leave, you know, so they don't have to go back to the building, but you know, those remain locked. So each Well, let's talk like each individual. Oh, so you would walk out and there's a 6ft sidewalk that's fenced in that you would not have to walk through another gate until you got to the actual playground which is Okay. gated. Mhm. Okay. So, you're not walking like I got to open 15 gates to get all the way around the building.

Um, going back to if John go back to John's thing about the uh sight line hit hiding the RTUs from the north. So the north elevation, the north and south elevation have no parapit. Yeah, we can we can make sure that those are acceptable. I don't see why they wouldn't currently meet the the sighteline requirements. Yeah, not knowing how the lay of the land goes to the north if it goes up or down. Yeah. So the property of the north is um a little bit lower

lower than us. So, they're going to be even more shielded as well as I believe to the uh east of us is wooded and also lower. We're kind of the high point, you know, everything kind of either drains north to on Auburn or to that drainage swale, you know, east. So, so the west is going to be Auburn Road, correct? Yeah. Right. Yes. So, and again, I'm not trying to nitpick it, but it's my it's our responsibility, right?

Absolutely. So if you look at the one elevation, the west elevation, you do see the RTU poking its head out of there. I guess my question, my concern would be is and I know I mean you could do this during construction, right? Um is to ensure that that line of sight is blocked on the west elevation, but just if it's extending that parapit over and look at the parapit could be the same height, same same width, just slide it over so that that's blocked on that west elevation. I'm not as worried about the north, right? not worried about the east as much cuz you commercial buildings back there, but I think we were going to worry about it and focused our energy on it should be focused on that Auburn Road uh view line. Yeah,

I didn't really um I I was lucky enough to build a couple Wendy's lately and I really didn't think about it as I'm building them. Right. And then pulled around the back of the building, which is actually the front of the building, and there was the RTUs. Well, they were blocked from the road, but not from the main part that everybody got to see. Yeah. You know, and it it was approved. I was just the general contractor, but it was it was interesting, you know, and I'm like, "Wow, it makes sense now." So, I think if you guys could think about that in construction or stipulate that we want those screened off, I think that would be important to this commission. We we can make sure those are fully screened.

I appreciate that. Thank you. Um while I agree with you John the the staff recommendations and is to provide sight line for the adjacent properties for the north and east as well because it's in our resolution. Correct. It was a concern by staff but just that those elevations had those hadn't been addressed when I initially oh request to ensure that yeah well yes that the part about having the rooftop mounted equipment is required in the resolution. Yes. Yes. Yes. But shielded on all sides. Correct. But that doesn't need to be done by parapit though. That can be done by vertical screen on the roof. Absolutely. Absolutely. I was being more specific on the parapit.

Right. And and that is in the staff's number two. So Heathers already has that noted as number two. That makes sense. Yeah. Some Yeah. Something to demonstrate how Yeah. Yeah. We can we can add north and

we'll just provide vertical. This is obviously limited number of conditions as opposed to what's on the site plan. So there there's really only eight here on on that stipulated here. Um I yeah I think yeah I don't have any other questions on the building design. Frank, I don't have any questions. Matter of fact, uh we talked about the doors access on the side and stuff. I'm I I favor that a lot, especially then for there's an emergency, the quicker you can get people out of there, which this would insist is what I have a concern and Okay.

I like to see. Okay, John. My only concern is if we go by staff recommendations, number one, true, we're going to have to not include that one, right? I'm I mean I'm I'm okay with it as long as they address the Is that Yeah. Frank the picture roof. Sure. There isn't a name on the rest of the building. I know. Yeah. I know. Okay. Brian, I concur. Okay. Concur. Um c can I ask a question about the one comment in there last one, please?

The signs on the shade structure. So, this is just our logo that's on the the shade that'll be above the play areas. If it's not if is it permitted to be on those or is it I guess I wasn't really clear. Can we get you prefer them to be on there? But if it's an ordinance requirement that says that they're not, then can we get a signage permit to put logos on there or logo? Yeah. Yeah. So there's like some shade elements to the playground that you know kind of this large green awning almost and we put a primrose logo on them. I think that's what the comment is is tailored for. Yeah. May I approach? Yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely not a judge.

So like Oh, there it is. Yeah. Up here. Yeah. Y like that. Okay. Yeah. It's these these your brand plans. So that's so you can see it underneath or from above? From above. So the zoning um Mr. Chairman, the zoning resolution doesn't explicitly permit it. So if it's not permitted, then therefore it it's not it's not allowed is the way that my interpretation of that was. Yeah. Because we allow building signs, wall signs, freestanding monument signs. Um,

would they be allowed to come back after if they wanted to and ask uh get a variance to put it on after we if we approve it without it or uh well with any zoning requirement there there is the opportunity to ask for a variance from the board of zoning appeals. Um okay so so that's question for Bry again. uh um and I have to uh retract or go back to the site plan because I think we failed in the conditional approval to site the permission of the ch channel link fence. I think that needs to be put in express

expressed and now on this one it uh there are two items if we so choose are they require variance or may at our discretion the pitch roof and the logo and I think you still have discretion. We still have discretion. Okay. And Mr. Chairman the the fence was on the design review not on the site plan. I know I I'm saying I I didn't we didn't make that in the motion. Right. And that was for the design review. Correct. We didn't. Correct. We didn't state that in the motion. So, we're allowing the chain. We're allowing the chain line fence cuz you haven't made a motion yet on the design review. We did. You did? On the site plan review. Site plan. Site plan. Site plan.

We're talking about design review though. The fences are reviewed as part of the design review of the building. Oh, yeah. So, you haven't skipped. I knew that. I was just making sure just making sure you were doing a great job. Heather pass. Thank you for keeping me on track. That's why we said we'd wait. We're tough on ourselves. Like, wow, this room. Yeah. Okay. Feel better? Yeah, I do. I do. Okay. So, we have discretion on the logo

and the pitch roof and the chain link thing. Correct. Chain link fence. Okay. Um I have no other questions on the design review. Um, if no other member of the board here does, entertain a motion. I understand a motion. Brian, how do I want to include the um those eight? These eight, but we're going to use discretion on our pitch roof. Yep. I think we're I think Brad, if I may, we got to go through each one of these. I think that would be best. Yeah. Okay. But in doing so, we're going to say that we're going to we're going to consider it without the pitched roof then.

Correct. Okay. Yeah. Mr. Wartell, I would just recommend listing the ones you want them to comply with. Eliminate the conditions you do not want them that you don't care about and just state the ones that you do want them to comply with.

That's what she said. All right. So, I'm going to make a recommendation for conditional approval approval of the design review application on October 7th, 2025 with the considered changes or the considered uh recommendations conditions. Uh building walls, parapits, and or roof systems shall be designed to conceal all roof mounted mechanical equipment from view to adjacent properties and public rights of way. provides sighteline diagrams to demonstrate how the units will be screened from adjacent properties from all elevations. Ballard should be painted black. Replace the proposed how to say this one. Um, we replace the proposed 4ft chain length fence with same ornamental fencing proposed for the perimeter of the play areas except for the chain link fences that separate the um sections

interior interior sections running perpendicular to the building only. Uh signs will require a separate zoning permit prior to erection. Extend the proposed wall to the south if the 13t wide access drive will be removed. It's not provide construction details with dimensions for all walls and peers. Okay. Um we have a motion to for conditional approval as stated. Uh do I have a second?

You have a second. I second that motion. We have a motion and a and a second for conditional approval. Um um as as stated. Uh Heather, the roll call, please. Mr. Teriyako. Yes. Mr. Schindler. Yes. Mr. Wartell. Yes. Mr. Epelise. Yes. Really appreciate your guys time. We're happy to be here. That concludes it. Thank you very much for uh accommodating our questions and comments. Uh good luck with the project. We wish you well. Hope it does well for our community um as well. So, good luck and thanks. Thanks. Thank you very much. Welcome to our community. I think it's going to be a great success.

We're really excited and I think we're friends, Rich. So, thank you guys. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

Uh thank you Heather for all the reviews. I know this has been back and forth. A lot of multiple conversations and discussions. Thank you for the efforts through here. Um,

thank you for putting this putting this uh package together for us. Thank you. [Applause] We have time, gentlemen. Uh we'll continue um uh into old business on our agenda. Number one is a work session to review the signed regulations. So uh before us we have um several items in our packet. Um a revision to consider of uh section 30 signs for this meeting. We also have um a uh legal opinion, legal re research from our our our legal council on the question of the signed regulations as it relates to the highway. And we also have um uh provided to us by Heather uh the types of election summary from I presume the higher advice code where this comes from um for our clarification given the discussion we had at last month's meeting. Um my my intent colleague uh primarily because there's more to do as Heather had indicated to me prior is to just further our work session along um um and that's what this will be. Um I don't know if there's any there's no timetable right that we have to do and we can just extend. So this is a another work session. I don't consider um what's provided here as a uh something for uh final approval uh let alone uh Heather has more to share with

us um uh as we as we move forward. Um so I want to begin with the um the thorough research provided by um Bry's law clerk here. um um on the the highway beautifification act um and how it impacts uh what we wish to do on any regul regulating signs. Um it's a rather extensive research bidey thank you that was provided um uh after I read it I needed to read it again.

There's a lot to digest. Yes, there's a lot to digest. Um, and it led me to some confusion in the in the I don't know if I want to jump to this item right now, but I but I will since it's at top of top of mind in this in the October the latest revisions provided for signs. Um, um, I'll just draw your attention to the the newest rendition uh, page 30.23. 23

23 30.23 hate to jump jump into all right but that was this was the top of our packet um in 30.23 23 number at the bottom of the page number two and the subsequent language for the signs along the highway is crossed out or is eliminated.

And uh so that got me confused because the discussion in the legal uh paper memo says regulations contemplated are permissible under state and federal law are contemplated. I and and perhaps I'm reading the wrong section or referring to the wrong section that we could indicate what we wanted for signs or regulating signs because uh legally we are permitted to do or we we can with the disclaimer of advertising regulating advertising. So if someone could clarify that for me maybe you guys do or Bry other

I'm confused. I'm confused. planning on um telling you about that. So, actually on page 30.21, we just relocated that section because if you remember, we're kind of eliminating the table. So, if you look at um page 30.21 J

sub J signs along a controlled access highway. And the reason why we were talking about this last month is we were talking about the pole signs, the 20 30 foot tall signs on 44 or lots that back up to I90. And there was a question on whether or not we could regulate that because of I we didn't know at the time of this highway beautifification act necessarily the name of it but then um the law clerk looked into it. You know what we have currently in the resolution is fine and what we're proposing would also be okay.

Okay. Um, but based on our conversation last month, um, what I was hearing from the board, and correct me if I'm wrong, but was that you guys were open to like taller pole signs on lots on commercial lots that have a have a rightway or frontage on that on I90, but not necessarily on 44.

Correct. So, what I proposed to put in here was essentially what we had previously before we eliminated the the 30- foot tall signs down to 12 foot, which occurred a few years ago. Um, that would permit a a pole sign on a lot that abuts I90, making sure that it has to be within 20 feet of that property line. could be um could be 30 ft tall and 120 square ft. Mhm. Um Okay. And then we I think I missed it cuz everything's in red.

Yeah. Yeah. And my my plan is to to eventually get you one with all the track changes and then one with everything accepted so you can see a clean version and understand it better. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. That clarifies a silly question. I missed it there. Okay. No such thing as a silly. You were confusing me to start off, but we got the answer. Yeah, I start off, but I got the answer. Right. Um, any questions from the board on this particular matter? The highway this clarification from the law clerk on the No, I high beautifification. Thanks for the work to Thank you. Yeah. No, I don't have anything. Yeah. So, uh, at this point then, uh, Heather, did you include this language, this disclaimer? Yes.

It's in is in Yes. J4 J4 right there on page 30.21 very bottom. Got it. Great job. Great. Well, that was Brighty. Good job. We work together with an S. It's a Zing. Zing. Oh, advertise Z. Never mind. question. No, it's us.

Okay. Um, so I I I brought my the September because I was looking at um what I had here. Do you have a a preference, Heather, to go through these as we did or the the ones that we highlighted and questioned or I had a few things written down, but I did want to point out. Yes. I was hoping you say that. I don't have Septembers, right? Because I was not here. That's I don't think we need the September version, but Yep. Yeah, the October version. You're um is a good the most up to date. Yeah. So,

one of the things that um Hyram brought up at last month's meeting is he wanted to see any of the pictures or images that we were going to have within in the sign regulations referenced in the text like with figure number um or something like that to identify those. So, yes. um for any of the figures. So basically starting on page 30.9. So we have a couple images that show how to calculate sign area. So I've included in some references like see figure one figure two. Um you'll see under the freestanding sign I was it looks like I didn't identify those figures but we're going to eliminate the tall pole sign one and just show the one. Okay,

but it's on the second page on the next page. So all the figures are now referenced from in the text with a label. Okay. So I went through through and I did that. Um there was we also talked about on section 30.04 which is on page 314.

Yes. So section 30.04 the the title of that section. So I I made a change for it to state that the permanent signs for residential uses and signs in residential districts. So sometime and the reason why we needed to say for residential uses is because sometimes we have a single family dwelling in a commercial district. Cool.

For example, right here at our intersection, we're town hall commons. We have a couple non-conforming houses that are located here. We would not want to allow them them to have to follow the commercial sign regulations, but rather they should follow sign regulations for one family and two family residential properties. Would capture that. Any questions? Like that. Understood. Okay. Thank you. Okay. And then I was going to talk about the signs along the controlled access highway. Um

yeah. So, if we can have a a further discussion about that, but starting on page 30.21,

um, like I said, it sounded like the commission was open to allowing them on allowing them to have them on parcels that a join I90. Um, didn't sound so much like on on 44, but that's definitely something you can talk about. So, some of those um lots that are on Auburn Road that have double front edge that the back of the lot joins uh 44, you know, would you under the current regulations they t they could have a second sign at that rear secondary setback or that rear frontage. Um but under the current regulations, the maximum height is 12 ft. Initially when the when the resolution was put together, it allowed for a much taller height, the 20 or the 30 ft. Um, so the question I guess for the board is, do we want lots that have frontage on 44 uh to be able to have a taller pole sign like or not? or should they be um should they be required to just have their sign on the street that they actually have access from Auburn or Kryle um with the the groundbased like lower monument type sign which could be as tall as 12 ft.

Um so like McDonald's so if it's not advertising Yeah. If it's not advertising, what would a sign be if it was on 44 or I90 other than advertising? So, I think the the Highway Beautifification Act is really looking at their definition of advertising is not the same that we're saying for signs. And I don't know if Bry wants to talk about that more or not. I mean, I mean, it's totally confusing. I'm not Oh, it is. Right. So, what the fed the feds did is they said state, you guys can be in control, but the state has not fixed the issue here. obviously very confusing and conflicting things. That's why we have that disclaimer to say, "Hey, we're not trying to regulate advertising devices."

Um, as they're defined in the higher revised code, right? So, very different than how we define signs. Um, that's really kind of the only fix we can really we can really do. So, I mean, yeah, you're right. I mean, is it isn't it an advertising device? I don't know. I mean, I don't know that it actually fits the definition in under the Ohio code. So that's kind of our disclaimer and our out if you will if anyone were to challenge us meaning they'd have to go to the you know ODOT essentially to the director to get permission if for some reason they're going to challenge us and say hey listen you know and we we deny them for whatever reason a permit to put up the sign they would have to get approval from ODOT whether it's 44 or 90

that's what I understand that's right because those two state route correct interstate in. So, so assuming or presuming ODOT would give a permit for a pole sign along 44 and we and then our rag would say it's got to be 12 20. Wait, sorry, 30. Maximum height is 30 feet the way it's written. That's what we were drafting. Correct. We can make it whatever we want. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. That's But the draft is 30 ft. Yes. Right. So,

it's advertising 144. Yeah. I know a logo is advertising. I'm asking this question. I I a brand is advertising, right? Yeah. possibly under the highways code. Yeah, they could consider it to be. So, yes, I mean it's McDonald's. It's it's I get I understand that, you know, I don't consider 44 a state highway. No, but it's considered I know, but it's coming into a community a residential plus a nice laid out area that we're proposing for business stuff. You know, having something that's 120 ft tall, right? I would just the 12oot thing,

right? I would find more not only aesthetic but more logical than driving on a free. We can't prohibit. We can't prohibit a sign. No, not prohibit it but keep it at a lower elevation. That's me personally. Because of that ambiguity, right, Heather, the suggestion is to put a disclaimer. That's correct. What if we agreed we don't want these billboards and signs along 44? What if we don't want them? To what Heather said, we could only allow signs on the frontage. Is that Can we

Can you limit it? We can do what can we limit it to only signs in that on the front uh the the the property could only advertise not advertise have signs on the street that it fronts on the I mean the address cuz the address is not 44 the address is Auburn Road Auburn or Cry I I don't know I mean I'm not for limiting we know we know that but I mean it's that's the question I think of right right that is the question because Shell gas stations advertising but that's on Crow Road, right? Their signs on Crow Road, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. BP was on Auburn Road, that side. Yeah. Right. University Hospital.

Well, it's only one. Yeah. Well, they got a permit. Right. Right. And they have one on road right at the corner at on not on 44. Well, it's the inter. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I guess. So, could it be only that the could it could the sign be allowed only on the the road that it's fronted on? In other words, can we regulate that and say that? Yes. My question. I think we can. I feel still think we have to have that disclaimer. Yeah.

I know that sounds silly, but I mean I think there's there's clearly law, right, that says that the you know, ODOT is making that call with respect to maybe not frontage, but it sounds like kind of fronting along these controlled access highways. We call them controlled access highways, but really they're the the interstate and the primary Yeah. It's the interstate other primary system in state, right? Yeah. Um I mean I'll have to look further. I think really just for it's a good discussion. I I'm of the opinion let it be challenged. I can't see why we would permit signs along 44. It's just we don't have to I I

that's what Well, that's what we're disclaiming. We're saying they could ever we're saying it's going to it's we're we're saying like in J signs along controlled access highway. We're not giving them any allowance. We're not talking about State Route 44. We've not said that they can do a pole sign at State Route 44. We're not talking about 44 at all. We're talking about just 90 here. Yeah. Number number two then says oh along such highway this is you mean it's only this is only all four all these items only pertain to I90 to yes sign yeah but I thought you brought up I had asked you in addition to that do you guys want to do anything on

that's not in here yet no no no last meeting the last meeting 90 and we were discouraged and I just wanted to confirm yeah thank you Thanks for taking me down to your rabbitical with you. I did with you. You were. I was jumping right there. Yeah. Thanks for bringing you up. Well, not just No, me too. I was so you don't want to see poll signs of disapp. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Until it gets challenged. But no. Right. Right. Wait till it's challenged.

Wait till it's challenged. So I interrupted. Well, no, we had questions as you going through this, Heather. So, um Okay. You were here at this which we now know and understand Yeah. better. Thank you. Okay. All right. We have clarification. At least we have clarification. Yes, we do. Yes. Yeah. So, um, the other one of the other topics that came up at the last meeting as well had to do under the temporary sign regulations. Yes.

On page 3030 or 3030.09 [Applause] G. These were signs during elections. So in this was in an effort to loosen the restrictions on the on page 3030. Got it. G. Okay. G signs during elections. Yes. Thank you.

The the point of this was to trying to loosen up the restrictions during election during election cycles to allow um residential property owners the ability to have a little bit more temporary signage. Um, and we started talking about because we're we're indicating here during a general primary or special special election. Um, there was a discussion on on the board whether or not that covered all the election types that we had in the state of Ohio and do we need to define it. Um, based on what I found, and that was just a little handout I gave you, like the

um, there were two things. Franklin Rose kind of like did a summary of just the three election types, but the Ohio Revised Code also um gives definitions to what the elections are. And I think that any type of election would be covered under there. Like any issue or um like a that would come up would be voted on during one of these type of elections. Mhm. So, I'm sorry and I wasn't So, we restricted political science to 8 square ft 2T x 4T.

This was a proposed uh regulation. Currently, we have no size limitations. So, every So, this was a recommendation. So, the big 4x8s that people put up and then take them down that we're going to say no to those. Now, this what section is that? Section G, it says, oh, I didn't read, keep going. Yep. Yes. Signs prior 3 days for a general primary uh provided that no such shine shall be larger than 8 square feet. That's 2T by 4T 2 by So what are that's that's just something I had starting. I know.

Yeah. I mean I don't I mean is there a Did it come from an adjacent uh We looked at Willoughby on that. I mean, I didn't I mean, I don't know all the sizes of election signs, so 4x8 4x8 is is the big ones, especially on a on a on a bigger road or like a on a faster road. I know that. I mean, because you can only see so much quite honestly cuz I'm not looking at the signs for what the school board elections are out right now. um driving at 40 mph, which I always did the speed limit, but 40 mph up G Road, which I live on. You know, there's some I'm trying to read them, and I know officials I can read, but you know, I mean,

going on a on a faster road where you want to put a sign up, you know, that I'm I'm being sincere when I ask this because I know there's people there's there's data driven that says you can only read so much at at going so many miles per hour. And I think that's why people went to those bigger 3x5 signs. So I there were 4x8 signs. Thank you. 4x8 signs which is 32 ft.

Does um to further that does this apply to any zoning district? The sign does C is temporary signs and residential. D is temporary signs and non-residential. And then we are in signs during elections. Oh, signs permitted on any residential lot is not restricted. So a residential lot. Am I right, Heather? We're referring to a residential lot to restrict it to 2x4 or four eight square feet.

Eight square feet. Correct. Not not in non-residential areas. Well, right. And even this the way this is worded, um, this only applies to lots being used for residential, but we that's under C, but this is under G G G. The specific political signs, signs during elections, not necessarily political signs, but signs during elections. Are you going to be limited to four to eight square feet? [Applause] Yes. Okay. I'm I'm not in favor of it. I'm obviously I don't agree with it, but I mean that's just

Well, and that's up to the board to But is it clear that it's residential only? In other words, they can do a bigger one in a commercial lot. I would say in a commercial lot, you would not be able to do a bigger one. You would be bound by whatever the restrictions are for commercial districts. Oh, there's a separate sign.

Yeah. So G is the signs during elections that that kind of that period is only giving residential lots more time or more signage, not necessarily commercial lots. So the business corridor wouldn't be given an additional temporary sign allowance to put up more signs during an election cycle. Just lots that are being like people live there, right?

Okay. My my first read on the revision Heather was under 309 C number two. So 309 C is temporary signs and residential. Number two says not to exceed 45 days temporary signs. Could that be confusing with signs during election which is limited to 30 days? Could there be any confusion by the the way the law the way it's we are proposing it temporary signs not to exceed 45 days in in all residential districts but signs during election in a residential is 30 days

absolutely no it's 30 days prior to the day this is to try to establish the time period that's not saying that you only can leave them up for 30 days It's 30 days prior to the day that absentee ballots are available to when to when? Yeah. To 3 days and up to 3 days following the election. After the election. Got it. But then two says temporary signs can't exceed 45 days. Okay. Is there is this longer than 45 days or uh I believe absentee is 30 days before the election. I don't know. I'll have to look. I would think that it might actually be more than that. I think it's more than that.

Yeah. I think it allows you to leave it up longer. And I the way I would look at it is if you're in that election cycle, then as the zoning inspector, I'd be looking at G and not counting the 45 days that would be outside of that. So, what qualifies as a temporary sign that's not an election year? Grab sale. A garage sale. Okay. Great. Great. Sure. Sure. Sure. U graduation party. Yep. Yep. Yep. John lives here. John lives here. I don't know why I said John. Um Okay. So that Okay. Thank you for temporary signs 1945. But I mean Yeah.

So like I know that some of our commercial businesses do put up more signage during election periods. So I don't know if that's a concern for you guys or not. There are a few commercial propert but if we adopt this but if we adopt this we would basically not be giving them they would have to follow the other temporary sign regulations I thought Supreme Court said that we couldn't restrict political signs

right and we're not though right talking about signs just during a certain time period election time period not necessarily political signs so the I mean you've seen most of the signs that are on And there's so many on residential lists. So right now if that was in place, I mean, and and then you could also put up other signs like um you know, my you know, my child's at Riverside or whatever, you know, all those other signs. So, but during the election period, there's going to be a limit. No, not limited, right, for a certain period of time. Yeah. With respect to just during elections. So, it's almost like a lot. Um so the sun doesn't say at all.

Well that but also um it's almost like saying listen we know you're probably gonna have more signs during this time period. I I don't know I don't know how else to describe it but yes I mean it's there's definitely a fine line here. I mean right it's Yeah. Right. It's very it's tough um because we really don't want to ever be you know told hey listen you guys are regulating on content right which is not going to work but we are allowed to limit you know time place and manner kind of things um without really necessarily looking at the content again this is just the number of signs during this period of time I get it I know okay it's that's a I know it's tough

yeah I mean and the alternative is to not give an additional allowance and just stick with these are the num maximum number and how many in location you know and not give additional allowance for any time of the year. Okay. So if what I just think I I'll go back to the my original question and my concern the size I don't think that that's that's but like in a residential district um in a neighborhood neighbor

what we were recommending for a temporary sign um no sign should be larger than eight square feet in a residential district. No temporary sign should be larger than 8 square feet. Shouldn't be up for more than 45 days. Yeah, I see what you're saying because somebody lives in a development. Like I don't live in a development, right? Curt Road. So I could throw a 4 by8 sign in my my field and know what I mean. Yeah. I mean I don't know if there's a way to write it. Like if you have an excess amount of frontage, can you have a larger sign? Under that do it by district, you know, the twoacre and up our our four. I mean, if you qualified the residential for twoacre and up

for that size because it's obviously a larger rural lot. I know. I don't think you need to get or a lot that has, you know, over a certain amount of frontage. That's exactly right. So, you know what? It's Yeah, right. That's not right. But is it I mean if it's common that they're using larger than 2x4 then that is something we definitely should consider because what I don't want is someone putting up the 8x4 and then calling me going y hey that sign's bigger than what you guys allow and then now I'm having to go tell somebody to take that side. No no I understand I I get it. So maybe we um

in fact John the the September I have just absolutely used that multiple times in conversation. I love I love learning stuff like that. Um I get it. Do you guys want me to look at the sizes more closely? Cuz I was going to Yeah, do some research on that for me. So,

well, and even and that was going to be not for tonight, but like I really wanted you guys to think about because the the number even just during the regular times of the year, the number of temporary signs that would be acceptable on a residential lot. What I proposed, what I drafted was um you could have one or more temporary sign as long as um no sign is larger than 8 square ft and then the combined square footage of all the signs can't exceed 12 square ft. So, and I I get a second that's in residential, correct? Right. Okay. cuz I know commercial.

So that could be like four of the standard little yard signs that you see out now like um I don't think I mean driving around the township generally people don't have a lot of temporary signs other than kind of now, right? And then you see them come and go like when they have work done on the property or yard, you know, there's there's various times here and there, but we don't have a lot of residential lots that use temporary signs. So, we're getting rid of the con and I I thought you had something construction signs in here or um

God, I could have sworn I saw during construction 32. Yeah, right above 30 square ft. Yep. this. Yeah. Okay. So, a a uh real estate uh commercial real estate advertising uh 4x8 sign through duration. I I you do have occupancy right in here, right? I think you said that. Um occupancy of the building or completion of construction. So, if I'm a leasing agent, I want to put a 4x8 sign up and I have a 32,000t building and I lease out 20,000 square foot. But I still have 12,000 square foot left, right? Do I get to keep my setup until it's completely occupied?

Yes. Oh, right. So, the building is constructed. I'm sorry. What? Yeah, the building's constructed. So, the construction is done. Mhm. Then, but it's not fully occupied. Not fully occupied. It's not fully occupied. Okay. you would have to follow um it says it shutter and roof upon occupancy of the building or completion of the construction or completion of construction. Well, the way I look at that is so say we build Longwood Plaza. They have the big sign up. Hey, we're building Longwood Plaza, Ralph Victor Construction. We're awesome over here. They finish construction. They move in. They still have three empty spaces. They've occupied it. So that large I feel the way I look at that that that 4 by8 sign

that 4 by8 sign would need to come down and then if they want to put another sign up they would have to be it's got to be 10 foot uh it's going to be 16 ft right um 4x4 4x no larger than 16 yeah 16 16 ft Mhm. [Applause] [Applause]

These are good questions. They are. Yeah, we didn't we didn't dig into all the minutia of the actual figures that I had really thrown out all that much last month. So, these were things that I was anticipating that we were going to need to do. That's why we're having a session, right? It's a work session. Yeah. And I'll do my due diligence as well and I'll go look up, you know, I deal with a lot of commercial brokers. Mhm. And I'll see, you know, what their regs are. Yeah. Signs on vac. Um that I mean I I would hate to do that, but there could be another cate we don't want a category, but could there be something where you know

on a lot that's being offered for sale or lease. You know, could there be a separate criteria for that? I mean, you're almost there. Yeah. With F, right? But you have it under construction and and you're there with it with the occupancy part of it. And I think it's great. I think it's going to be complete occupancy though because he can put up his leave his board up there occupied and leave unoccupied and that's going to draw attention to it. And if you're going down Crow Road, I think it's what's the speed limit there? 45. 35. 30 is it? Yeah,

it's 40 on girls and 35 on Cry. Wow. Um Oh, I totally They could park in my drive anytime. Um so that's not you're not going to catch it. I mean, there's data on that. Believe me, just a food proof for thought on that. Heather, you want to continue? You had a couple of Yeah. items you want to bring to our attention.

Yeah. Just um Oh, no. [Applause] On the la on the last page of 30.41 41. [Applause] Uh D, I just wanted to point out um because there was a little bit of conver discussion about Rich, I think you brought this up. I did. Removal of signs that have maybe offensive or threatening language or anything like that. Yes,

we have something in here that talks about signs that are unsafe or in dangerous conditions like the physical, you know, condition of the sign itself, like if it creates a hazard for safety that we have a process to notify them and maybe potentially remove it. um you know, Brighty looked into some other communities regulations to see if they did anything um like that, but like and I don't know if she wants to touch upon that, but I felt like what I read it was some of the stuff that I saw was again based on the you know the the condition of the sign itself, but then also maybe too much if it was about the message on the sign, it was potentially, you know, I I felt like too much discretion for for the zoning inspector for whoever to determine that it's offensive to someone. Um I know we kind of talked about that here at the board like what's offensive to somebody might not be to somebody else and

it just didn't seem like that we should get into that. Not at all. You see what's you see what's on the news nowadays, man, with all that's going on with people finding things offensive and it's getting out of hand in my opinion. Yeah. We got that whole. Yeah. I don't don't want to go down that hole. I'm sorry. Here, where did we speak to that in here? It's Oh, I was just pointing out on the last page on 30.41. Uh, that's what I meant. D Oh,

the very first line. It's talking about unsafe or dangerous signs that constitute a hazard. We're not talking about the the offensive, threatening, or anything like that, but the construction sign of the sign. Yes. The construction of the sign itself. Okay. So, so the answer to my question, we can't regulate offensive language. Well, I will tell you that some communities do, but they really put the discretion at the zoning inspector or like the administrative officer to decide what is considered offensive, which I think is problematic. I absolutely think it's problematic. So,

they do it though. They do. They better have something in that they put their teeth on to in ter in writing and a law and a resolution that's that they can lean on. But what you're saying is they want to remove they don't even want to go down that hole. Right. They don't even want to writing I'm not speaking for you but the way it sounds to me the way I'm understanding you is to say let's not even address that. Correct. In other words, the only reason we would be removing a sign is if it's you know that the condition is you know unsafe or dangerous. Okay. So offensive language or anything of that sort, we're not going to address. I think that's going to be really tough. I think Yeah, I don't even think the Supreme Court can can do it. Speech.

I don't I don't think they can define it well enough. And I certainly wouldn't want to put that in Heather's hands. I don't think that's fair. But I mean, if you want to maybe consider like the board of trustees having some and you know, nuisance can still be an issue, but again, proving nuisance is a thing. I don't know that you want to put it in your zoning regulations. Oh. So the new the nuisance section in our is does it speak to that in the nuisance section the the noise nuisance section of our ordinance or no not noise nuisance but just nuisance in general nuisance isn't that spoken to there

not really it more I don't know it really talks more about unsafe or dangerous condition not that can constitute a hazard to the safety of persons or property not necessarily if you're looking at it is itendense offensive to me or is it offensive to you know my nextdoor neighbor can then you know Heather then remove it I personally don't think that I think with I don't even think the Supreme Court again can seriously define what offensive is okay adequately that we should even consider including it in our rags yeah could even generalizing that vulgarity expressions of defining vulgar right

you can't No, I mean there's a Supreme Court justice that said, "I know it when I see it." Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that doesn't fly anymore, right? I mean, it is it's tough. It's really I mean, I I understand this is like this is definitely the struggle. And I will tell you other communities have sort of just kind of vaguely said something along the lines of offensive in nature. That's what I'm That's what I'm suggesting, right? But again, truly then, do we want to do that and then have Heather really be enforcing that is is the question. That's difficult. Look what they're trying to take books and stuff out of the libraries for God's sakes and the community. So when a a complaint is registered with the town, who is going to address it?

Yeah, I think it would I think we would have to case by case, you know, again, is it I don't know. And that's okay. But it's children. We all know we might not. It's children. I'm concerned. We are. We are. But it's we also have that That first one was important. You had um other items, others. Oh, um that's kind of all I really updated in Okay. this version based on last month.

But I I know we also I we do need to talk further about the definition of not tonight, but the definition of temporary sign versus permanent sign because we kind of we raised that at the last meeting. Um I'd like to like really hone in on the uh the allowances for temporary signs. Is it too much? Now we're you know the sizes. Are they big enough? So we need to look at that more detailed. If you can I stop you right there. Yeah. So, so John and Ron were you here last month? John Ron was here. Sorry. The permanent sign if you look at 30.6 30.06

30.6 page 30.6. Um so under my question on 24 as Heather just pointed out 30.6 Six is the definition of a permanent sign is doesn't satisfy the definition of a temporary sign. And I that's what Heather suggested need to do a little bit more. I suggesting some more definition to a permanent sign rather than saying it's not a temporary temporary sign. I would agree with that. Okay. as during that duration. Right.

Whereas a temporary sign on the next page is defined um displayed only temporarily without a definition of time. But within the within the other sections it says 30 days blah blah blah 45day. Yeah. But definition. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else, Heather, after that? Um, yes. Sorry. Yes.

A couple other things. I didn't bring this up, but um previously, but I' I did see in in some communities they they regulate um within their sign section, and we kind of touched upon this a little bit because we were defining flag and flag sign, but actual like flag poles and heights of flag poles. Is that something? Um or the sizes of like in residential districts on commercial properties right now in our um zoning resolution, we basically just say that they're allowed they're allowed to encroach into the yards, the sideyards, and we don't have any restrictions, no height restrictions, no size limitations or anything like that. But I know some communities do regulate that. Um, and I've seen them in their sign codes, so I wasn't sure how the

What do we have currently? What's up? What do we have currently? Nothing. Nothing other than um a size. What's up? I thought we had a size cuz I was looking up flag for flag poles. No, we No, we have nothing. Yeah. So, on your residential property, you could do whatever side, you know, pole that you want. 30t the size one in my field. Not not a poose, but I was in but I was I was I wanted I I do I but because it because it sets back from the road, you know, I could put it in the middle of my orchard and I I I looked up. I could have sworn I thought that I saw size restriction. No, there's no size restrictions. It seems seems to me we

something we could look at our community. We can see the neighboring townships too to see if they have any regulations and look at what some of the other local communities have. Not to try to overregulate things, but have some kind of standards on that. Maybe something. The neighbor across the street, Gordon, he he yelled at me cuz I saw my flag up. You got to get your up. I know. I know. Oh, but I want to put a good I could have I thought we did. I thought I saw that somewhere, but maybe not.

And then I just want to relook at the the lighting that we kind of touch upon like and maybe this is not signage, but well may I think it does. some of it gets into it, but like we really don't and I'm not I would have to do a lot of research on this, but like like the LED lights and the the neon lights and and some of that like I don't think we adequately address that in our sign regulations and maybe that's something that we should look at eat at Joe's a little bit more closely. I mean, we all we already say you can't have the black fl or the blinking flashing kind of lights that kind of thing. Yeah. Um we we should but I don't know if there's some So you're saying like back lit light back lit signs. They don't do neon sign. That's they make those anymore.

Or like even neon lights. Is that some you know are those things that um the neon lights have the gas don't even use. It's all LEDs. Mhm. Oh, right. They got rid of that. Or like the Okay. I mean they they the old bars that still have them. That's about the only place you're going to find them. They don't even make any. Oh yeah. Okay. Just something I I just wanted to look at that closely just to make sure we are covered there. Yes, those that might have just been my to-do list here, but that that was kind of that was Thank you, Heather. Um I I had one this is minor in this in the original I'm not sure what from last month in the last month under right at the beginning the definitions. Oh yeah. Is this in my book or

the definition of sign? Uh just definitions the opening paragraph. Yeah. So in the uh the last sentence of the opening paragraph 30.02 definitions architectural features as defined. Mhm.

So it was eliminated last month but it's back in this month. I I know I un I I took out deleting all that because when I was reading this again and when we were going to look at def refining temporary sign versus permanent sign the definition the definition of sign is right in here and I don't know why it's listed you know and that was part of it so I was like wait a minute so for the purposes of these sign regulations a sign shall include and then it goes on and this is the technically the definition of sign. Yes. So, I thought let's hold off on striking that until we like come back maybe next month and and really look at Okay.

that entire definition of sign. All right. Um it should be written this way versus the temporary sign versus the permanent sign. Mhm. But good good catch. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I didn't know if that was the right location to even put the exception in because if that's the definition of sign like I don't know that we should have an exception right there with it. Yeah. I was the the wording is a little strange here. So we're definitely going to have to fix that. Right.

I think you discussed all the other things I had u here u brought up last month. So Frank, I have anything anything add? No, I don't. Ron, anything to questions for Heather or legal counsel? Just to summarize, I do in case I'm not back if my opinion matters here. So I do agree on the flag pole. I you know because if there is no regulation right now, somebody could really put up like what you see on 90 as you come up to 520, right? Yeah.

Something like that. Um, signage on 44. I sort of like how it's regulated now because I think you would Is it 44 or are you going to put signage on Auburn Road or Crow Road? So because 44 in India got cryo and Auburn and then I think it would get too confusing in that is the frontages or back where would you put that that sign in that area and everything is visible from 44 or crow or oven whatever road you're going down I do think on 90 that that's that's a different story but there's not much there right you have

and there's really nothing else west of that on both sides and then going east, Hannah electric is already identified. If something else goes in there, you know, then maybe they would be able to identify that. So, I just wanted to put my two cents. No, thank you for that. No, thank you. Good. Good. Good. Um I in furthering this uh along, Heather, I I don't know what the board's been. Is it possible to to to refine the all the red red at this point or or not? Yeah, for the ne for the next meeting. Is that Is that okay? Yeah. Okay. To make it like accept changes so you can actually read through it. Yes. Yeah, we'll do that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and then there's the ones that are outstanding. Although outstanding. When I say outstanding, there a couple lagging questions here. Yeah. But if you remove the strike out of it, you can read the red. You can read the red. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. I'll go through and I'll I'll accept all the changes and then I can send you I can even do that with this version if you'd like. So you can review that like Yeah. Cuz it's it's it's going to take some time to go through. It's almost like a a single item for an agenda really but to get through all this. Yeah. For for a work another work session. I anticipate that's what we're going to need. Okay. Before we get to final Yeah.

Not to make more work for you, Heather, but I just Yeah. No, there's a lot to uh digest here, I think. So, maybe hang on to the this October version and bring this um next month and then I can um accept all the changes and okay and give that to you as well that matches it then and then any of these other things that we wrote down that you know can just be a side kind of we won't integrate into here yet. Like if it's research on like the definitions or the flag poles or any, you know, I'm going to come back maybe with some information about typical sign sizes maybe. Yeah.

Um, yes, we won't put those in here yet until we've kind of agreed to that. Very good. Thank Thank you, Heather. Thanks. Thanks to the board for reviewing this again because we're going to this is probably going to take another work session yet and then re review. So, uh, appreciate your diligence in looking through this. I find this particular section very important. I just think it's it's awfully important. So many it's almost like can we split it up somehow? Is it But they're all all related. The signs um it's all related. There's so much there when it comes to signage.

I couldn't agree with more with you, Rich. I think it also is it is also um I hate to use the word controversial because it's but it can be and that's why we talk about that line right and who are we because it all goes back to what is free speech yep you know and you're preventing me from it so I could I concur and I think it's very important okay

the under uh thanks for all the efforts there on that work session uh colleagues, very well done. Uh number the number two on our old business is uh still there indicating the agenda item uh for the completion of the sidewalk has been tabled until July 26th to report uh on that the the count the township has initiated with consultant comprehensive plan uh that's underway. Um um and that's going to take probably until June or July of 26 to conclude, but the their findings or plan might give us some direction here on where where we might go with this uh sidewalk. It might might yield some um uh direction for us, let alone what is now occurring, which we approved tonight. Mhm.

in the Caval district. U although they're building the sidewalk there. Um to the roundabout. Mhm. Yeah. So anyway, so that might be not that I'm You like my joke. I thought it was pretty funny. I missed it. Yeah. No, you didn't. When I made my comment about put a duration on this. Oh, you did. Yes, you did. Um um our next meeting is uh November the 4th uh 2025. Um hopefully Oh no, we understand Mr. Peterson won't be available then as well. So we might correct correct. Yeah, he running back.

Likely likely. Um thank you. And before I conclude our journ uh I would ask that we uh probably defer well read through this proposal the gentleman had provided to us. Absolutely. and uh permit Heather and uh Bry to consider review it. Give us some uh thoughts as it relates to our current regulation. Um again, sir plank, thank you for offering that. I just question please. Frank,

you put this together yourself. You are you didn't have legal counsel or somebody because it looks like something we would have done ourselves. My my first job out of school was as an architect and I threw all the restrictions for Pine Ridge and uh Oers Cove, but then I realized you can't make money as an architect. You got to be an engineer. No, I mean that's true. Technically, it looks like just something that came out of our zoning book. Well, I did a lot of research. Nice job. We're looking into it. Yeah. Well, I said I definitely Ron knows I've been complaining about this for many years

and justifiably so you shouldn't have to be in such an inconvenience. So until Mr. Peterson suggested it, I had no idea. Very good. Thank you. Um there being no further business uh by this board, uh this our meeting stands adjourned. Thank you. Great job. Thank you.