Borough Council - Regular Meeting

Call to order, Columbia Borough Council regular meeting for June 23rd, 2026, 7 p.m. 704. May I have a roll call, please?

Council President Cooper?

Here. Council President Kaufman? Here. Council President Byers? Here. Council President Zink? Here. Council President Beasley? Here. Council President Murphy? Here.

Here.

And Mayor Lutz?

Here.

Thank you.

Would anybody like to give an invocation? Please stand for a moment of silence. And Councilman Poole, if you could just say a few words.

Thank you.

Announcement of executive sessions. A session was held on June 9th, 2026 to discuss a personnel matter. And at 6 p.m. this evening, we had executive session to discuss a personnel matter. Additions, deletions and reorganization of the agenda.

I'll make a motion to approve the agenda as published.

Second. I have a motion by Councilman Zink, second by Councilman Murphy to approve the agenda as published. All in favor say aye.

Aye.

Citizen comments. Mary Wickenheiser. 706.

Good evening. Good evening. One comment. On the sign-up sheet, why still have the topic column there? There'd be more room for people. Because people coming in usually speak on more than one topic. It just seems. Just the thought there. Okay. We give more room for name and address. Okay. First off, I wanted to Jake's not here tonight, but I wanted to thank him and his crew for the fantastic job they did down at the river park on that bank down there. They cleaned out the vegetation. They trimmed up the trees. There's a lot more room for people to fish down there. Also, a lot better view of the river from there. Staying on the river park, needless to say, Those of us who boat out of there would certainly like to see better enforcement of the parking down there. The other day there were eight vehicles parked down there, no trailers. I was down there on Saturday the 13th for an event in the Columbia Crossing. There were five vehicles. the parking lot i made a call needless to say went to county dispatch when i came out an hour and a half later the five cars were still there but there were no tickets on any of them the other meeting a couple meetings ago when a gentleman identified himself as moises who i said was my neighbor up there on sixth street at sixth and avenue g and he spoke of the issue with getting in and out of that alley there. If you look at that alley in particular, there are storm inlets on all four corners of Sixth Street on either side of that alley. And what has happened is, painting the blue for the storm sewer has totally wiped out any yellow lines that were there. So I don't know what can be done and I'm sure there's other places in town where yellow lines have been painted over. I think we need to prioritize which is the more important, identifying storm sewer inlets or allowing for what site distance we can get at intersections and alleys. um I'll get back to the cat ordinance again I would like to know as part of that ordinance there is supposedly yearly reporting to the borough on um intake and disposition of each feral cat, the number that are being spayed, neutered. Is this being done? Is the borough receiving reports?

CCAT gives a quarry report, yes.

Okay. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I still think you need to go back to the elimination of the open feeding. And the other thing I will say is being in front in between two approved colonies. Why don't you check with neighbors before colonies are approved? With zoning, if something affects a neighborhood, there are postings. Now, you just approved. My quality of life up there is horrible right now. Now there's a couple of them up there that are fighting all the time. We're having cats meowing for hours at a time up there. It's getting ridiculous. Ordinance 966, the data center, I think it's a very strong ordinance. I hope you move forward with it. I did mention that planning ‑‑ I'm no longer chair of planning commission, but the fact that I attend these meetings, when things happen at these meetings, I try to bring them back to planning. And I did advise them that there was an ordinance in the works better to regulate data centers. And I have a question on the resolution on decorum.

Yes.

contradiction here you have under number three public participation about the time limit and such and then it says no additional comments there will be no further public comment opportunities after the designated public comment section concludes comments on new matters arising later in the meeting will be heard at a future meeting And then you go further under number four, rules of conduct D, obtaining the floor. Members of council wishing to speak must first obtain the floor by being recognized. Members of the public wishing to comment on agenda items should approach the microphone. So are we, what's the, you know, Which one is going to happen? The no comment at all?

We'll have that discussion.

Okay. I just thank you very much for your time. I've gone through my list. Thank you. Thank you.

and uh mr president if i can make a comment to mary on the data center ordinance mary there were a few things i was rushing through that last week and there were there's a couple of things that i realized i wanted changes i wanted to make that i didn't and changes that i should have that i made but shouldn't have so there there may be a few things we discussed tonight change-wise but

Okay, our next person is Kathy. You okay? All right. Colette Shaw.

Hi, thank you, council and neighbors. Thank you for the decisions you've made so far about the data center. I live right next to that land. I've had a chance now to see the spirit of social media and I try to see with the benefit of the doubt. I believe our community does have a consensus that we don't want data centers, but I don't see citizens stepping up to help. I see what people don't want and I don't often see what is maybe wantable. So I would offer, if you would like, to put a group together to try to network with developers. This is not my area of expertise, but I do have expertise in leadership and networking and picking up the phone and seeing, and some of this has probably been done and I need to educate myself, but I would love to use the expertise we have in our citizenship to try to draw folks that are worthy of Columbia and maybe steer the conversation away from just AI or not AI.

in our backyard um and i don't know who to talk to to see if there could be an exploration of an initiative like this so are you saying about bringing business into the to the property yep okay so we have rules that we have to follow as far as state rules right um we have to auction it And then if we cannot be successful after two auctions, we can turn it over to a realtor. At that point, maybe that group may be necessary.

I think right now I'd love to have wonderful places want to be part of that auction. And the better places we have, it's better for all of us. And the more we include citizens in that conversation, I think you'll get a lot less heat. I'm trying to turn complainers into collaborators. And I have tried to put a little bit out there on social media to just say, I hear what people don't want. But what are we all willing to do and not just put it on, you know, a dozen people that you're busy, we're busy, but together, maybe we could draw some some folks i think we're all networked in ways and we all have power that we don't realize and i would i've got the time and i have the energy and if i can help i'd love i need somebody with the expertise on the government stuff we need expertise in the business stuff and um yeah so i'd like to help but i don't know who to talk to when you later on give me your phone number okay i thought i did that last time i was here and um all right i'll do that thank you okay thank you i have it you have it my next speaker is jesse rob what's

Good evening. My name is Jesse Rabinowitz. I live over on 6th. On June 9th, Mayor Lutz made a proclamation that Columbia Borough would officially recognize June as Pride Month. listed among his reasons include desiring those identifying as LGBT to feel valued, safe, and free from bullying. I believe these are good things for every human to enjoy because man is created in the image of God.

Can you get on the mic a little more? A little bit more? Yeah.

How's that? I'll hold this up so I could look a little better. Because man is created in the image of God, we are to value, respect, and show kindness to one another simply because of who made us. No matter what group you fall into, your worth as a human is the same. That being said, I do not believe that publicly celebrating those identifying as LGBT or Pride is the best way to value and respect every person's worth as an image bearer of God. To begin, this proclamation is an open door for public celebrations of homosexuality and pride, which undermines our community. I believe these things to be morally wrong, as do many others in Colombia. Pride is generally repulsive because it is the opposite of humility and service, elevating yourself over others. And pride in your sexual orientation is not a stable foundation for your life individually or for unity as a community. To live in a way contrary to how God made us as humans actually devalues your worth as an image bearer of God. Everything you try to make the foundation of your life apart from God will ultimately fail and crumble with your feet. Additionally, giving a month of recognition to someone simply based on their sexual preferences is by no means equal treatment under the law. It is in fact putting them above all others. I understand commemorating a particular event with significance to a town, city, state, or country. but giving special recognition to a group based solely on the fact that they exist is not equal. It is logically inconsistent to seek equality by elevating one group above others. So I, my family, and some of the men in this room wholeheartedly reject this proclamation and ask Mayor Lutz to retract it. I want to see a Columbia where families are comfortable walking to downtown, enjoying garbage history, shopping in our 34 antique shops, and sitting down for a bite at Hinkle's without having one group's flag publicly flying over the town. It does not represent the whole community. It is not the way to combat bullying or general unkindness, and it is not equal treatment. Thank you.

Thank you. Mr. President, may I respond? Yes.

Many times in the past 25 years, I've been asked to do proclamations. And usually it's a proclamation on something that is bona fide. I look at this Pride Month as it was a national thing. It was bona fide. Whether I agree with it or not, uh is not immaterial is not material uh i have my own personal feelings and beliefs but as mayor if i am asked to do something for a group that that is basically recognized nationally i probably will do i will do it i have not turned them down but if you look at the proclamation And let me make these two points. If you look at the proclamation, these are the two parts in the proclamation that I was trying to stress throughout. And you alluded to it a little bit, Jesse. And those two points are, this nation was founded upon the principles that every person is created equal, that each has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and that each shall be accorded the full recognition and protection of law. And then further down, it is essential that our LGBTQ1A youth be accorded the freedom to be themselves without fear and live fear from reprisal, discrimination, or bullying. Those are the two points that I wanted to make with this proclamation, that basically, no matter who you are, what group you identify yourself with, you have these rights. So that's why I did that proclamation and I will stand by it. I will not.

The next speaker is Emily Vrelich.

you good evening um i did have a question before i begin if the ordinance 966 i might have missed it but i wasn't sure if just pros based on process if that's published ahead of time for public to view okay um it's in with the agenda okay okay thank you um one second so as council considers zoning changes for the light business designation at the mcginnis property to conditional use for data centers i want to begin by just thanking each of you for listening to resident input and thoughtful deliberation thus far for such a consequential land use as a data center I urge each member to recall the dozens and dozens of public comments made over the course of the last three meetings expressing concern for such a land use so close to homes in our community. I share many of those same concerns. However, one concern that has not been brought up is environmental justice. Nearly the entirety of Columbia Borough is designated by Pennsylvania DEP as an environmental justice community. Environmental justice mapping reflects the overall disproportionate impact of environmental effects on vulnerable populations by comparing one census block to all others in the state. It takes into account things like exposure to pollution, on sensitive populations, such as those experiencing higher incidence of asthma or cancer, and those without health insurance, among other socioeconomic burdens. Colombia ranks in the 98.5th percentile of pollution burden. In its holistic form, environmental justice seeks the meaningful involvement of all people in decision-making and other actions that affect human health and the environment. Consideration for environmental justice and decision-making seeks to protect all residents regardless of income from disproportionate and cumulative impacts of environmental and other burdens. It further involves the prevention of future environmental injustice. Columbia hosts a fair share of industrial uses within the borough. In fact, at previous meeting, resident Kathy Umbleton noted that parcels in the borough are already zoned industrial. And many of these properties are longtime businesses that are fully integrated into the community fabric of our town. They are in distinct contrast to what a data center would entail. The constant noise and heat burden from data centers is well documented in dozens of other communities. The current zoning designation for the McGinnis property as light business does not encompass all of the environmental externalities Columbia Borough would bear. And data centers that function as mini power plants by creating some of their own energy demand on site would create further concern for toxic air pollution and particulate matter. So I would just urge any council that any conditional use ordinance on data centers should consider Columbia's existing designation as an environmental justice area, as well as cumulative environmental burdens that we already bear and how much more that we can bear. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. And Barry Dietz. Yes. No problem.

Okay, hi. My name is Barry. I live on 345 Cherry Street. My property abuts to the fire incident. Just a couple of questions maybe, and maybe it's early in the game, I understand. They started cleaning up today. They did a pretty good job today. My concern is, are they going to put some kind of security fence around the whole area? Are they going to do something where my yard butts up against a block wall up there? Or do I have to purchase material and build the fence myself? Like I said, I know it's early, if anybody has thought about it. It'd be great just to let us know through a letter or whatever. It's fine.

Terry, I can get your phone number then and give you a call. I can follow up. Okay. We have it. So I'll follow up with you on that.

I've been talking to numerous people, Bud Letty for one, Paula Diffenderfer. They're trying to keep me up to date the best they can. I know they're busy. And just for my own self-satisfaction, I just wanted to know. I will put my own security fence up if needed. Also, how far are they going to take the block wall down? Are they going to keep it level with the existing parking lot in the back? They almost have to do that to keep three or four courses running through my yard, the next yard, and the third yard. That would also help with whatever they're going to fill it with, whether it's modified stone, whatever. And I know down the road if they're going to rebuild or whatever. So be it. I know where my property line ends. Are they going to put another block building up? I hope not. Parking garage would be nice. But other than that, I think the main concern is security up there.

Absolutely.

There's some issues going on up there. Everybody knows about it. Yeah, if somebody give me a heads up so I can move forward with whatever I got to do.

I'll give you a call tomorrow, Barry. All right, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Anybody else would like to speak? Frank.

Yes, Frank Doudry. Good evening, you all. The band in the park. I heard so many good comments on that, and it's the things that we need to come to Columbia to happen in Columbia. because I didn't hear one negative thing. And the next thing is the car show. Always, always, that show is always so great. I've seen more pictures online than when I've seen their cars because I couldn't walk the distance. But hats off to all the volunteers. I hate to single these two out because there's so many things the volunteers do in the town. and they're the ones that make the town. But they were both so good. It's a good thing for the town to have these things happen like that. On the other side of that, is anything being done with the scooters, the bikes, and the e-bikes? How they took over, I thought things were going to be different. I see no changes. Is anything being done? I don't see nothing of it being on the work session, which maybe that's not a work session issue. I don't know. Correct me on that if I'm wrong. Is that a work session issue or not? It's not. Well, is anything being done whatsoever?

Yes.

Matter of fact, there's a meeting. We have a meeting scheduled.

Anything come out of it?

We're meeting internally tomorrow morning. One of the big problems, Frank, is what is the state allowing and not allowing? And what can we allow? As you saw, there's some legislation in the state now to change some of the regulations they currently have. So the whole thing is the use has gotten ahead of the laws. But what we're going to do is we're going to start looking at it and start looking at what can we do as Columbia Borough to enact ordinances to prevent some of what we're seeing. And one of the first things that will probably come out of it is those things that are in the vehicle code. that we can control because it's in the state vehicle code. We will start instituting them as soon as possible. And then there are other things that aren't in the vehicle code that we will have to craft. If you look at, you know, as I was looking at our ordinances now, our ordinances with bikes and scooters and skateboards and all that, it's a mess.

Absolutely.

Okay. So we need to win and look at all that too. so that when we get done, we have it all taken care of. Because when we crafted, for example, the scooter ordinance, they didn't have electric scooters. Now we have electric scooters. So that throws another thing into it. I looked at some of the ordinances. Mount Joy just passed an ordinance pertaining to that. Quarryville, Strasburg, excuse me. Strasburg has an ordinance that in draft form that they're going to be voting on. We're looking at that, trying to see what some of the other municipalities are doing. We have been, as legislators, we have been talking to our state reps and senators saying, you need to come out with some rules that fit everybody in this state so that we can all take, so that Columbia doesn't have one ordinance and you're allowed to do this and not allowed to do that. Marietta has another ordinance, you know, so it's all a mess. And then what you have is you start to stop people and they say, well, I was allowed to announce bill. Why can't I be here? So it all becomes a mess. If the state would just get ahold of this and create proper law, but in the interim, we're going to do what we can. The bottom line is we don't want to see anybody, whether it be a child or an adult, get seriously injured or possibly killed from misuse of these. And I can tell you, I can give you a little heads up. One of the things you're going to be looking at real strong and rather quickly is lights. I see too many people on bikes after dark with no lights, and they're required. And I'll take a piece out of Strasburg, Georgia, because they have a lot of plain people. They go there people, they're plain folks. So are a lot of them work, volunteer with fire company, and they use scooters. But I found out, you can put lights front and back on a scooter. So that, you know, people riding scooters, whether they be electric or, or foot foot pedal, they can be required to have lights on. So there's some things, it's a whole lot of things that we have to look at to make sure it's right, but it's not a dead issue, Frank, and it's something we're very concerned with.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of what you said. How are we handling this now until all this gets done, which you're telling me, I know we have to wait on the state most likely first. Along with that, I'd like to know what's supposed to be licensed and what's not.

Well, none of it can be licensed. Maybe that's going to change, though. Maybe that's going to change. That possibly could, yes. Right now, if our officers see someone operating the bike or scooter that is in violation of the vehicle code, they will stop them and basically caution them. And if it happens again, they have the right to confiscate either the bike or the scooter. And our officers have been stopping now. You'll tell me, and I'll even tell you, every day I see someone riding either a bike or a scooter, and they're not doing it according to the vehicle code. But the officer has to see them doing it to stop them. We're hoping that once we get the rules out and they get out to the people... to children and the adults that they'll start recognizing it. And if they don't, once there's a couple of citations written, you know how Columbia is, it'll get around real quick and they will get some information.

I think you need some confiscations. You know, you take their scooter or their bike or whatever, that's going to get more results than citations.

I don't want to speak. I believe we have. I'm not going to say we did. I believe we have accomplished it and made parents come down to you. And if I may, I'm sorry to interrupt.

Sure. We have to do that according to state law. There are statutes that allow us to seize and then request forfeiture, but we have to make sure that we are not withholding someone's property unlawfully. Secondarily, it's my opinion, we don't want to discourage alternative methods of transportation, especially green methods of transportation, but we do want to get our hands around this before somebody does get injured or hurt.

Follow the rules.

We're definitely going to sit down, and I've done a lot of research, especially in the forfeiture side. So I think I have some information to bring to the table that may be useful. A lot of it's going to be dependent on enforcement, though. And you know our police department, as short as it is, is very busy. And so it's going to be dependent on how often our officers are going to get out and enforce these violations.

So my understanding is we have that in our ordinance that we can confiscate.

It's not a borough ordinance. It's a state statute that allows municipalities to seize after a violation has occurred. There has to be a disposition. That person or persons has to be found guilty of that violation, and then a municipality can Request forfeiture. Some of the issues that we're going to run into, it has to be the owner of that vehicle, whatever it may be. It can't be a juvenile, so we're going to have to, it's going to be a discussion about how we're going to do this in a proper fashion and legally.

Well, when you make that ordinance up, put the fine on the parents. If the parents let them do that, if they buy them or however the kids get these things, I don't want to see anybody get hurt either. But it's so annoying. It's just all over the place.

Remember, Frank, if it comes down to creating ordinances or modifying ordinances, That will come here, and there will be public knowledge and public discussion.

Well, I kept waiting for something to come up, especially the work session, and I haven't heard anything. I don't mean to criticize Holly, but I didn't see nothing.

We're gathering the information so that we can craft the ordinance. Okay.

Yeah, we discussed this like a month, month and a half ago. And at that time, you know, Pennsylvania was kind of like sitting on the pot again, if you know what I mean. And so I sent the mayor and some others, you know, what New Jersey had just enacted. Well, at least we had something we can go by that New Jersey has. Well, no sooner started that, the next you know, now Pennsylvania is finally doing something about it. So now you're kind of like that waiting game, you know.

And I think that statute's only a few years old, so everybody's kind of testing the water to the point to see if it's going to be effective or not.

And I understand there's a lot of problems with it, but it just seemed like nothing was said, and I just figured, is anything going on at all? If something don't start, it's not going to happen.

There's been a lot of internal discussion.

Thanks for listening.

That's great. Anybody else?

Getting close to the Fourth of July. Kathy Vesa. Every year in my neighborhood, I live on North 8th Street, we have people shooting off fireworks. And I like to celebrate as much as anybody, but we're in the middle of a drought and it's dry. I know when I dig in my garden, you don't have to go down very far and it's dry. And the police are very hard pressed to keep after the kids. But I don't know what we can do except to advertise, maybe not the punitive part, but just the fact we're in the middle of a drought. I worry about, they shoot them up and it's all the vegetation, the trees and everything, and it's a danger.

I live on North 7th, so I'm hearing the same fireworks that you're hearing.

Right on the corner, right.

Yeah. I've seen them get ignited in the streets.

Yep, that's what they did. And in fairness to the police, they come and they're like rats off a sink. They're kids.

Yeah.

But their parents come and yell at the police, which I don't understand. But... It's dangerous. Plus, they're sending them off in the street where people are driving.

Katya, I'll say this. I know for a fact we do arrest people every year.

I know.

Our police force is limited. The best enforcement would be from citizens and videos.

But calling is one thing.

you have videos from like ring cameras whatever that's where the police can really be effective well and like i don't have one of those ring cameras but my that wouldn't even cover that but

I mean, I don't know, except to say that there's a drought and maybe that would have, I know my sister lives down in Ocean City, Maryland, and they just had a terrible fire because some idiot set fireworks off from a balcony into the dunes, you know?

We can also talk about getting some more education out there about the particular issue ahead of July 4th on the website or social media connected to the borough. Maybe if I go out with my hose. Yeah, that's a good idea.

Well, I can tell you where you live is one of the worst. Not bad. Exactly. The corner of 8th and Walnut.

And Walnut, right.

So we know that we've done some rest there.

Yeah, well, I mean, like I said, I know the police have tried to, and then I see adults yelling at the police.

It's like chasing your tail.

Yeah, I put it.

It's great. I know, in addition to just the fire hazard, what it does to your pets. I mean, I know Sharon and I have both spoken about this in the past. Yeah. You know, my animals, when it's 4th of July or even 3rd of July, 2nd of July, down the basement, close all the windows, turn the TV up because they'll be going freaking bonkers, sitting there shaking, you know, like they're going to have a nervous breakdown. I mean, it's, well, and I've been doing this for years. I know the mayor brought up years ago, state of Pennsylvania legalized the sale of them, but it's illegal to set them off. That's a bit of a quandary there, isn't it?

Yeah. sell them but don't set them up here okay there's four approval consider approval of the borough council meeting minutes for june 9th 2026. i'll make a motion a second i have a motion by councilman cooper second by councilman byers to approve borough council meeting minutes for june 9th 2026. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye.

Thank you, Eric. Good evening, everyone. Thank you for putting Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly on the agenda tonight. My name is Paul Nicholas. I'm a resident of the borough and a member of the board of Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly. And tonight we wanted to bring senior affordable housing to your attention and talk about it. it's mentioned in the comprehensive plan a lot and we know you're busy with so many issues but we wanted to share with you what we're seeing as a board and jack is driving the powerpoint so we're just going to go through it's not a long powerpoint but i'll look to be pretty efficient about getting through it so um the outline for this presentation there's a little bit of introduction local context just to set the stage in the background the board has identified a site development opportunity in terms of additional senior affordable housing with an emphasis on senior There are a list of considerations and a specific request for the council to consider and think about going forward, and maybe this requires a work session, additional discussions, and things going forward. And we'd be curious about your thoughts on next steps as you hear this, and maybe you've already given this subject some thought. So in terms of introduction and background, the next slide, really gives some background on when Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly started. It was established in 1970 for the sole purpose of developing Trinity House apartments at 400 Mill Street. And there was a board established at that time at that time there wasn't a housing development corporation established so the housing development corporation began at that time for the sole purpose of doing trinity house apartments it is now htc mid-atlantic a huge entity that develops In 1970, the building was completed and occupied. And then within 11 years, that same board was able to develop St. Peter Apartments at 400 Union Street. The board traditionally is made up of half of St. Peter Parish in Columbia, Catholic Church on Union Street, and Holy Trinity Parish. So there are four board members from each parish. They all serve voluntarily. There's no compensation for any of the board members in anything that we do. So very quickly, I'll read this. This is from the bylaws. The mission and purpose of Columbia Catholic Housing for the elderly is to provide for elderly families and persons on a non-profit basis rental housing and related facilities and services, especially designed to meet the physical, social, and psychological needs of the aged and contribute to their health, security, happiness, and usefulness in longer living. That's right from the 1970s. Mission statements these days are much shorter, but we keep the same mission statement even to this day. In terms of where we are today and the proper category for placing us, as you think about housing options in the borough, so we're age and income qualified affordable senior housing, faith-based, not-for-profit. So that gets us into a very specific range of affordable housing. Faith-based, obviously, we're associated with the Catholic Church, although there's not a formal connection to the diocese of Harrisburg. And we're in that not-for-profit, World of things were not for profit. Obviously. We've held on to the properties that were developed in the 970s and 80s and they were developed. Permanency and so we continue to hold on to them and maintain them. Just going from left to right St Peter apartments consists of 126 residences as it was originally designed. currently there are 181 people on the wait list 44 of those people on the waiting list are columbia residents trinity house 133 residences again for its original design there are 191 people on the wait list and 49 are columbia residents so in total our wait list is three to five years to get in there are 372 people on the wait list as of our may board meeting uh 93 or an even 25 percent are columbia residents that are looking to get into either so this is the uh in senior housing this is considered the age wave in the united states as the census bureau has defined it and the blue bars are the number of people that turn 80 And you can see this wave that's from 2025 to 2026. Certainly all the ages underneath of that are increasing as well. So related to that, the light blue bars that are vertical bars represent population growth. The dark blue bar and the dashed line that's running horizontally there on the right-hand side shows the amount of senior housing that's being developed. versus the need that's in our country. And we're seeing that Pennsylvania, I mean, having worked in the senior housing industry for the last 37 years, we have one of the most expansive senior living populations in the country. So statistics that just show this need, and we haven't done anything for 40 years in Columbia since the St. Peter's Apartments, and we don't feel like we're keeping up with the mission. So the local context to this, as the board was talking about it, was to just think about Columbia a little bit further. And as we've been dealing with infrastructure improvements at both buildings, we're upgrading elevators through the wall, units, an emergency generator at St. Peter's apartment. So there's a lot of other investment going on. But we wanted to take a look at what our current setting is. The comprehensive plan for Columbia, wonderfully done document. It coincides with the Lancaster County Places 2040 document. So we took a look at just briefly a couple of segments of that and where the borough and the team that put together the comprehensive plan, what they were thinking about for the future. The board, knowing that there's this need, we're not another town Catholic housing for the LA or Columbia Catholic housing for the LA. So the thought is put Columbia first. If we can make something happen and address this additional need, we want to do that. So that's where we're focused on. So three slides from Columbia Borough's comprehensive plan. This one is a place to call home. Affordable housing is mentioned multiple times throughout the document, and I didn't count, but it's more than 15. So a place to call home is tasked with increasing opportunities for homeownership, creating greater housing choices within the borough, identifying solutions to improve the conditions of the borough's housing stock, and ensuring the provision of affordable housing. now granted affordable housing takes place at many levels from single-family homes but we're talking about senior living affordable housing so the second slide is from page 39 in the comprehensive plan and it It says, encourage and support the development of a Columbia borough-based community housing development organization, or CHDO. CHDOs are non-profit, community, faith-based, or other development interest groups primarily concerned with provision of affordable housing for all. So that's what Columbia Catholic Housing for the Elderly is, faith-based, not-for-profit development group. And so we're thinking that maybe those who were authoring the comp plan maybe had us in mind, but just put an abbreviation in there for us. And then lastly, the next slide talks about the scale, the amount of development to get affordable housing to work and this is it's called gap financing pool so infill development is likely to be small scale in size and fewer than 25 units to a project these smaller infill developments lack financial efficiency because the fixed costs are spread over fewer units and the cost per unit is higher without any corresponding increase in market value Historically, these small development projects have difficulty securing public funds in any form. So projects need scale to be financed, and often significant projects like this involve a capital stack, and there are like 10 to 12 different financial entities that are involved in significant projects. So that was the background. There was a specific site development opportunity. We're going to run past you. Lots of graphics to show you. But again, for your thoughts and getting your consideration. The zoning map, we took a look at where High-density residential development can be in the borough, and especially with the current zoning map, high-density multifamily residential is specifically mentioned. And there are five zones within the borough. brown zones and just zooming in trinity house is one of those zones it's located again at 400 mill street at the end of fourth and fifth streets down near the shawnee run the green is the conservation that goes district that goes along with the shawnee run and of course the railroad is there so um we also wanted to look at since the comprehensive plan was looking to 2040 where the borough was thinking development was happening And so in the same area, same zoning map, this is the future land use map. If you zoom in on the next slide, it's following that blue bubble. and we wanted to make sure that the borough wasn't thinking that that the density within the area of trinity house was being downsized so in the future high density residential is is continuous around us there at trinity house uh the purple is industrial so we're pretty much surrounded by those two use groups So then going forward, all the slides that you're going to see next have this orientation with it. And it made sense for us just to take a closer look inward at the Trinity House. This is a site aerial photo. And you can see where the building is. Trinity House is nine stories tall. So that's why that deep shadow is happening there. And you can see the Shawnee Run and the railroad there. We initially brought this to the borough two years ago and wanted to get the borough's thoughts on this idea. And originally, when we brought the idea to the borough, we were thinking smaller than what we're about to show you. And the borough manager at that time said, you need to think bigger. You need to expand your thinking. Columbia has fixed parameters. We don't have a lot of developable land, so you need to go up in your consideration. That really resonated with the Board coming back after that meeting here and telling the Board that result. The Board really thinks this is a one-shot opportunity to do something here, and we'd like to review that with you. The last part of this is that discussions about this have only happened with the borough and internally with Columbia Catholic Housing and the Board. We haven't shared this with any consultants. There's a specific action that's needed by the Borough Council. Otherwise, if we would bring this up to somebody, they would say, well, it's an interesting idea. Come back when the Borough Council endorses it. We thought maybe the Borough officials would want the Planning Commission to see it first to give an opinion, but there's a transaction that's too important for that. So we haven't even talked to HDC Mid-Atlantic about this, and they're our main management partner. So going forward, there's a site analysis slide that starts to give some definition and metrics to this. trinity house is defined by the main parcel that is on the upper part of the sheet it's 2.8 acres the parcel at the bottom side of the sheet on the other side of the shawnee run is 1.2 acres so that's four acres all together we were last before the borough for the little rectangle piece up there that's 0.34 acres and that went through a subdivision and development plan to have parking approved for that So in Columbia Borough, we're at 4.34 acres, and we're thinking, can we do better with that amount of land in the downtown? But if you think of this as various puzzle pieces, the next slide is, Columbia has this, or the Trinity House has this really unique positioning within the borough, being the only building fronting on this small street it's a segment between fourth and fifth so mill street is in our opinion is a missing puzzle piece to this it's only a 45 foot wide right of way a 27 foot wide cartway and so when people parallel park it's tough for two-way traffic but If the borough would consider that as part of this master planning exercise, what opportunity does that present? So we took a look at that. And on the next slide, if we had Mill Street right-of-way, we could think about subdividing and treating that property, that land, in a different way. And Trinity House, which is its own corporation now, could be defined separately. And then land to the right could be a new affordable housing senior living project and. We would define that we'd have to develop a 3rd corporation. Because all of all these projects are individually owned by separate corporations, the same board members. But legally and financially, they have to have their own property lines and. parking and all the support facilities have to work under the property boundaries that are there so so what would it look like the next slide we took a shot at master planning but knowing that eventually um I think pretty much any project in Columbia Borough has to go to the zone hearing board because of just fixed parameters and things we have to work through. One of the benefits of having two existing senior living buildings is there's lots of data we can get from that. So when you think about developing a site plan, how big is the building footprint on the site? How tall is it? How many units? And then how many parking spaces are on the site? So there's this kind of three-dimensional juggling act that's happening. So we asked our staff at St. Peter Apartments and Trinity House to say, okay, we know at St. Peter Apartments there are 126 residences. And in the world of affordable senior living housing, how many people actually own cars because they're expensive to maintain, run, operate? So at St. Peter Apartments currently there are 54 cars or 43% of the residents have cars. At Trinity House, 133 residences, there's a lower percentage that have cars at 40%. So would the Zoning Hearing Board think that that's a rational way of approaching data and parking? If they would, we would use the higher percentage at 43% of the number of units to define the parking that's needed for a new project. So the next slide is what, so again, the existing site, and then if you click again, Jack, Here's the way that we think this could work. It's a new affordable senior housing project on the right-hand side of the kind of purplish footprint and Trinity House is on the left. When you think about it and high-density residential, if you think about senior living, affordable housing, limited cars, most people aren't working right so they're not out on the streets driving at the intense hours of you know rush hour in the morning and evening um fewer cars etc so we think that's a good match for things the next slide is a zoom in on the left hand side side and what it allows us to do for trinity house apartments is get all the apartment parking restructured at the front of the building near the front door the residents have been asking for more accessible parking spaces and so we would be able to accommodate the parking for the residents plus staff in that kind of left-hand zone malt avenue is the alley that runs vertical on the street and in working with the planning commission we're sure that we could have an access agreement to keep malt avenue open for any residents that have access to malt avenue in front on malt avenue And then also this kind of concept allows us, there's a great tree mass that is down at the bottom of 4th Street before you head up Manor Street along the stream. So it allows us to hold on to some of those natural features. And then the next slide really is the main thrust of this, the new project. would see the ability to enhance fifth street extended by continuing the sidewalk and wrapping it down fifth street down to the bridge probably street trees you know curved sidewalk all those improvements the building would front on on fifth street extended but really the real magic to this and it's really unique to columbia borough is the setting along the Shawnee Run and the access to nature, indoor-outdoor connections for residents, and the social interaction that could happen between the new residents as well as existing Trinity House residents. When we worked with the borough a number of years ago and we did the stream restoration project, there were concrete abutments put in for a bridge, but the bridge was never put in. So we would look to work in a pedestrian bridge crossing the stream where those concrete abutments are and also um we get an open pavilion um no walls or anything but would that be a great destination for residents across the stream um this project would also you know if you can imagine trinity house developed in the 1970s the stormwater regulations weren't what they are now so this would allow us to upgrade the parking lot to current stormwater regulations and there's probably a lot of water that's heading into the shawnee run when we've got a lot of water there so building design the codes and accessibility requirements have come a long way too since the So we're getting down toward the end. Jack, if you go back one more time, just for orientation purposes. So the new building footprint, if you picture the bottom right end of the building and the ability to have spaces that look out onto the lawn, the stream is really set down in deeply there. It's not a surface stream. So there's a pretty significant difference.

But you can still be able to look out into that zone.

and so the conceptual floor plan really um again we haven't hired any consultants for this but if we go to the planning commission and the zoning hearing board they'll want to see some detail so you know entrance lobby and the core of the plan with elevators they go upstairs a community room community kitchen outdoor terrace for just residents to move indoor and outdoor for lots of events and things there so great you know glass looking out the the light blue to the left hand side saint peter apartments really would be the model for this it's a Just think of it brought forward another 40 years in terms of being more contemporary. But there wouldn't be a basement. We wouldn't excavate. We'd keep footings pretty close to the surface down there. the next slide would show the typical floor plan up above um and we'll show you the typical unit plan up above but we're thinking 14 units per floor um elevators come up in the middle the ability to look out at that yellow zone looking out to the west and one of the things that works really well at st peter apartments is that at the ends of the corridor Trinity House doesn't have this. It has stair towers that are inboard, and you get no natural light into the corridors at St. Peter Apartments. Residents will come out and bring chairs out to the end of the hallway, and they'll look to the north out of the borough, and just really expansive, beautiful views. On the right-hand side, if this new project would become reality, the views down to the south of River Valley are just pretty amazing. So the next slide. we would think a typical unit could look something like this where the kitchen living dining or more of an open great room kind of space with as soon as you enter into the unit you get a look through windows and looking the outside and natural light a separate private bedroom and an accessible bath and one of the things that we wouldn't do that Trinity House and St. Peter Apartments have is that the asterisk before when we say age and income qualified, if you have a disability, you can be younger than 62 and get into St. Peter Apartments or Trinity House, but normally 62 is our limit. We would look to have the units have the space in them for accessibility. So if you age in place a little bit, all of a sudden you need a wheelchair, you have the space to maneuver around. In the other buildings, there are specific units that have that space allowance. So again, very conceptual, but that's the thinking behind it. So that's the end of the graphic material. Considerations for your thoughts as you would think about this leaving tonight and the takeaways and how we might get together and discuss this further. The next slide lists some of the things that we're thinking about, and there could be many more, but obviously this kind of initiative would help us advance our mission in Colombia, and we wouldn't need to look somewhere else. I think that we're often having to meet our mission by expanding somewhere else. um we think it would contribute to columbia achieving its master planning and and goals in its comprehensive plan that's consistent with both borough and county planning and it also in this kind of strategy we're not using up taxable land it could be used for something else and because we're a non-profit and trinity house is not taxed there's another point to be made on that but we're kind of preserving land in the borough for other uses obviously if mill street would get taken offline the borough doesn't have street sweeping costs or snow removal or maintenance costs of that so there's maybe a value there we will just because of the consultant needs on this project we'll spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on consultants um and obviously the building itself is a multi-million dollar project so we have to figure that out the neighborhood and streetscape enhancement is a big thing uh two for fifth street extended then lastly on on this list similar to trinity house and saint peter apartments even though we don't pay the normal taxes for each of those buildings we pay the borough ten thousand dollars per year so this new project we would do the same thing that would be another project that's giving ten thousand dollars a year to the borough so that's a consideration just to have it on equal footing with the other projects So, as you would leave tonight and think about this, number one, we'll point out there, is there merit in thinking about this? And what would you think about how we could help Columbia meet affordable housing further? Certainly, we could discuss this further. But specifically, and something that the solicitor could help with, We're going to need to talk to financial entities, our management entity, consultants, and the Planning Commission. And I don't want Mary Wickenheiser saying, look, it all sounds great, but the Borough Council is not going to allow you to do this kind of thing. So I think that's the last part. Is it a letter of intent, a memorandum of understanding, contract? that if we successfully get through due diligence, substantially complete, would the borough convey the proper taking?

of ways i don't think i think it could be it would probably be an mou i would think um just to again like you said if you get through all these other zoning all the other land use approvals that the borough would would do that for you so yeah i think that's certainly if council wanted to do that that's certainly something we can do

so obviously a lot of you are hearing this for the first time tonight it's a lot to take in but we look forward to just talking about with you further about it these projects take a long time uh the best projects marry a master plan with an operational plan and the business plan which is the financial so you get all those to come together and those are the best projects that happen but we think the board has multiple talented people on it and so we think we have to go to do it no not at all the only The requirement in terms of the age and income qualified is that based on the 2020 to 2024 census, The average median income in Lancaster County is $86,000. So to be eligible, your income per year needs to fall within the 30% to 50% range of that. And there are people who have less than that that apply and commit. And there are a lot of people that fall into that category going forward.

45, 47%. 25% of the current

Yeah, so there were 70. Yeah, we had 25.

There were over 773.

I think the number was 44. I would say nine or something like that.

93, 25%. You know, I didn't ask this. I didn't ask the staff what percentage of current residents are Columbia residents. That would be an interesting statistic. Well, they are what I'm getting what I'm getting at.

I would like to see Columbia residents. Priority. That has that has

We pledge to look into that. Also going forward, since we have this chance to talk, the land transaction is one thing, but we will need to compete nationally and locally for tax credits and this financing. And to have the council's support in reaching out to elected officials or other applications that we have to file, we hope that you could help us out with that. So it'll be a great journey. It would also, wouldn't it be a great story of Columbia Borough teaming up with a nonprofit in this kind of use and meeting local and county goals and this kind of thing. The planning world, I think, would eat it up as well.

Well, I think it's an awesome opportunity to keep Mary's legacy going.

You know, Heather, right before I came down here, I just read a letter from Mary in March of 2017, and she passed away in July of 2017. She wrote a letter to Dr. Ben Carson, who had just been named the chair of the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. She wanted him to come to Columbia and meet our local representatives, meet our board, and she wanted to do a third. Her son and daughter say she wanted to do a third building. So there's a little bit of legacy attached to this too.

I immediately thought of that. And I will be honest, as You know, I sit here, I had a grandmother and a grandfather that lived in Trinity House, and I currently have a grandmother that lives in You know, it makes me happy to see that we are thinking ahead. And, you know, I think I remember briefly hearing about your meeting two years ago with the previous furor manager. And the first question I had when he had mentioned, you know, what do you think about vacating Mill Street? and i'm not trying to be you know i'm just trying to throw out ideas and something else that i think we need to look at in this whole process and that is how often does the fire department need to use that section of mill street to access fourth or fifth uh and we need to that will be one of the things we really have to look and I appreciate that I mean I don't know if they ever have to go up Walt Avenue but the ability to keep Walt Avenue open for traffic is also a positive in the event that it is

it widens it makes uh two-way traffic uh through that parking zone so wider so the department fire department would have wider access to go through so i think there would have to be an access agreement for emergency vehicles to crisscross i just i i mean especially when we're when we're talking about i mean now granted i know that it's not the time frame is not going to work it's not going to match up but when we're thinking about

Potential project on Manor Street that's going to have that road, you know blocked off come down through to get to the other side of town you know in my mind how would that is is that space and all of those things make sure that we involve them in conversations makes sense and there would be the building codes for buildings of of this height and so just just to be clear um

So we're thinking one story higher than St. Peter's apartment. So that first floor has all the living space, all the common space. Almost like if you live in a two-story house, all your living spaces are down below. Your bedrooms are up above. And then 10 stories of apartment units up above. So there are smoke evacuation systems, lots of things that we'd want the fire department to be aware of. The last thing I wanted to say, because you have a big agenda tonight, later in September, construction has been retained for Trinity House to replace the elevators, work on the elevator penthouse, replace the ventilation unit. There's going to be a crane that comes in to access the roof. And so that has nothing to do with this project. In case you get lots of calls that are starting construction on the project, it's a maintenance thing for Trinity. So we'll stand by and maybe just hear back from Jack as to how you might think about going forward.

Therapists and I, they all park on Mill Street. And once they park on Mill Street, and if it's snow, we plow, we have to get that snow off there to occur. Because when they park, then there's no room for vehicles to get down through there. It's almost like a one-way street. So the street itself is constricted, and it's being used real heavy right now by Trinity House personnel or associate personnel.

to make sense to me oh yeah basically they're usually moving than anybody else exactly jack can we get a copy of that presentation email to us yeah why don't you hold on to that jack and uh feel free to distribute it it's not been made public so if you could keep it to yourself for sure well thank you all very much we appreciate it yes thank you

Yeah, with the time that we're using here tonight, we'll be very short.

Piggybacking on what Frank said, this past weekend with the concert in the park and the car show, and then next weekend with the 4th of July celebration, Fantastic. I'm in Columbia. I was kind of sorry that, and I understand why they canceled the concert last night, the Monday night concert. That's going to be, I think, July 6th. Make up for that. I was interested to see how many people turned down for that. But it is great to see all these things happening in Columbia. What's really great to see is how many people Volunteers are coming out to help with these employees and that's all. It's wonderful. It's absolutely wonderful. So can't wait to see what happens the rest of the year.

That's all I have to say. Thank you.

Action items.

Authorization for bill payments.

I'll make that motion to authorize the bill payments presented in tonight's packet.

I'll second that. I have a motion by Councilman Murphy, seconded by Councilman Ziegler to authorize bill payments. Any questions? All in favor say aye. Aye. Motion to approve special event application The Rainbow Ridge Wildlife Center, December 5th, 2026. So moved. Any questions or concerns?

i don't see any note that we're approving a waiving of those fees so okay all right i i just want to make sure can we make sure that when they're coming that we know they're paid because we had said before we didn't want to see them i'll speak to p.m thank you thank you

and other comments and concerns. Motion to approve special ed application for Raven Ridge Wildlife Center on December 5th, 2026. Motion by Councilman Breyer, second by Councilman Cooper. All in favor say aye. Aye. Motion to approve special event application for Mac and Cheese Festival on September 19, 2026. So moved. Second. I have a motion to approve special event application for Mac and Cheese Festival on September 19, 2026 by Councilman Cooper, second by Councilman Byers. Any questions or concerns? motion to include special application for princess and pirate party and parade on october 10 2026. plenty of princesses all right well since we already have Motion to approve special event application for Santa Parade. A motion to approve special event application for the Santa Parade on November 28th, 2026. Councilman Cooper, seconded by Councilman Murphy. Any questions or concerns? All in favor say aye. motion to approve special event application for free parking saturdays from november 28 2026 through january 2nd 2027 second i have a motion to approve special event application for free parking saturdays january 2nd 2027. but councilman cooper seconded by councilman ziggler questions and concerns we had said last year we were going to do that that it was that was we were going to

i was going to say have it in writing somewhere so somebody can look at i think that's probably a good idea yeah we should does it have to be in any kind of

a resolution again just so you can go back and look at it and see exactly somebody may you know the formal resolution is what defines it as an official action council for going forward so you said the saturday after thanksgiving so the first uh so

so back to the original motion for this year anyway so pretty special application for free parking saturdays from november 28 2026 through january 2nd 2027 a motion by councilman cooper second by councilman all in favor say aye aye i just want to approve that

motion to approve special event application for old-fashioned christmas december 5th 2026 through december 26 2026. so moved second

I have a motion by Councilman Cooper, second by Councilman Ziegler to approve special event application for Old Fashioned Christmas, December 5th, 2026 through December 26th, 2026. And would you like to comment on that? I'd like this.

passed out a flyer because it's a little bit complicated we took the old-fashioned Christmas which is our very most successful event for the Merchants Association and decided to expand it to every Saturday after Christmas I mean before Christmas I'm sorry so it's encompassing all of December So the gingerbread man adventure is a event that we would like to draw the community into the first week. We will have a blow up gingerbread man and the board members will move it from storefront to storefront for a week. with that storefront owner taking a selfie and putting it on our Facebook page. And then we're going to open it up to the community to come and steal the gingerbread man and put it in their yard to take a selfie and post it. And yes, that's going to be the community involvement piece of that. And yes, we bought three gingerbread men. we did um do an all call for volunteers and if anybody else would like to volunteer and you don't if you wanted to sponsor a day it doesn't need to be monetary you could say i want to take december 5th and i want to run with it have at it i i tell everyone christmas is for everyone but it's also for the board and we need volunteers just say i love that december 26th is called the first day of christmas because that's when my mom starts counting down the first day of christmas probably starts december 26th everywhere but in the u.s and then the 12th day of christmas is january 6th

Motion by Councilperson Cooper, second by Councilperson Ziegler to approve the special event application for Old Fashioned Christmas, December 5th, 2026 through December 26th, 2026. All in favor? Aye. Aye. just want you to know there's no hidden cookies back there it's a little chilly up here all right and next we have a motion to approve the special event application for yard sales at the market house so move second all right good motion by cap to approve the special event application for yard sales at the market house by council person cooper second by council person buyers

How many? When? My understanding is it's going to be City Lane, and it's the Market House on Market Day, expanding City Lane to people who have 23 yard sales.

When?

July 4th. Oh, just July 4th? Yes. Because I see, you know, it said yard sales, rural. I don't want to see everything. I think

hoping you were going to say something like that not yard sales meeting every week yeah okay she's asking the rent yard sales stands on cd lane as part of the larger town-wide yard sale which is scheduled for saturday july 4. i wasn't aware there was a town-wide yard sales day

So I have a motion on the floor by Councilman Cooper, seconded by Councilman Botters to approve special event application for yard sales at the Market Edge.

Question. Yes. Seeing as that tends to be a busy an issue closing safety lane this question was opposed to the chief and gc finally okay i just want to make sure that we're not going to have an issue and then i would also suggest that since our police cars are not going to be able to be in make sure that we're ticketing people if they're in there because we're going to need those for our police thank you all right

on the six applications, how many had their fees exonerated? None of them. None of them. Okay. Thank you.

I have a motion on the floor by Councilman Cooper, seconded by Councilman Byers to approve the special grant application for yard sales at the Market House on St. Lane, July 4th. All in favor say aye. got merchant to approve right resolution 2026 that 16 rules of the point after our meeting at the firehouse or workshop the firehouse that got a little out of control or as frank would say um i came up with the new rules of the quorum policy so i'm requesting the council considers it the main gist of the changes want to have it quick so i was trying to be very generous before yeah allow 10 minutes 10 minutes conversations not only for public comment but also discussion during yeah uh things and for me to change that at that meeting right yeah so the reality of it is you do not have something in place

to make sure that I didn't miss some changes, but the changes were only in Section 3, public participation, correct? I don't think I saw changes in other places. No, you're correct.

Okay. So eligibility would be taxpayers and residents of Columbia Borough, non-residents and non-taxpayers may observe but will not be recognized to speak. Sign-up required. Anyone wishing to address council must sign up prior to the start of the meeting using the official sign-up sheet provided at the meeting location. The sign-up sheet requires your full name and street address. One public comment period. A single public comment period will be held at the beginning of the meeting after approval of minutes. This period is open for comments on both agenda items and non-agenda items. Timeline. Each speaker is limited to five minutes. Time may not be yielded, shared, or transferred to another person. Council President or Presiding Officer will enforce the timeline. Overall, sign up the presiding officer may say reasonable overall time for public comment period and need to limit the number of speakers or defer the meeting speakers to the next meeting. No additional comments. There will be no further public comment opportunities after the designated public comment section concludes. Comments on the new matters arising later in the meeting will be heard at a future meeting. That's the major changes.

Thank you. should approach the microphone, state their name for the record, and then give their comments. That will have to be taken off to keep it consistent. If I may, Mr. President, a couple of thoughts. I The first thing I disagree with, and this may seem like a formality, but I disagree with requiring the street address. However, I do realize that when you said comments are listed to residents and taxpayers of the borough only, the only way to enforce that is with the street address and who will be tasked with

cross-referencing a street address with those actual residents can i provide a potential solution to that um so on a lot of government documents that you see there's a essentially a sworn affidavit the 4904 right um swearing what is what we call it and um you could put that at the you know at the top of it that basically says yes like if you if you sign up to speak you are um you are saying that you are a resident or a taxpayer of columbia borough and if that's found to be you know found to not be the case you know there could be consequences under that section 4904.

Yeah, the reason I had suggested before about removing the street address. Is because I know there are a lot of people that are paranoid and they don't want to provide. Their personal information, and I never wanted to see. The requirement to give an address as a barrier to someone. Publicly participating in a meeting.

I just don't know how we can.

right right i mean because i know there were people that spoke at the firehouse that said they live on such and such a street and i know for a fact they don't so you know i mean i that's just i i disagree with you yeah i disagree with um the street and requiring the street address um i would ask that if there is only going to be one comment period for agenda and non-agenda items that we then make our agenda be a lot more specific as to what is happening in these notions because the whole point of the sunshine act is to afford the public the opportunity to address council before a decision is made. And it's nearly impossible to form a coherent, applicable discussion item if you don't know what's happening in the motion. And then we're gonna end up in a situation where we have people standing at the microphone saying, well, you have, you have um an item to let's just let's pick something out you have an item to approve a special event application for raymond ridge wildlife center well if they want to comment on that they need to know where they want to hold their thing they want they need to know those information they need to know that information that information is in the package already this agenda already goes into too much detail now all this information here is in the packet let's have a look for it and any legislative action is cleared in the work section prior to no it's not it's not the majority of the stuff we voted on here tonight was never talked about in one session yeah well over against 966 that never been discussed at the workshop right gonna vote on that My personal feeling is that if we are going to ask people to make their comments at the beginning and have them feel that they are providing meaningful comments and that we care that they're providing meaningful comments, it's nearly impossible to do that if they're not hearing the conversation.

I would agree with that, too, and I would also say, but I would say the caveat to that would be when you're speaking initially to non-agenda, they have their five minutes. If you're going to speak to someone directly on agenda, you should be able to keep your comment to within two to three minutes. Right. You should not need another five minutes just waiting on the one about that specific subject. You should know what you're going to say by the time you get to the microphone. Say it. If we get a response, great. If you don't, that's not required.

Okay.

And I mean, I personally feel that numerous times over the years we have received very valid concerns during that comment period that has caused us to actually pivot from something that was proposed to take into account other things. Which I think is the hallmark of

Because what happened out of the fire company is they put out all the fucking comments.

Then when the motion came up, it was all regurgitated once again. Yeah, the second comment. Same thing.

Yeah, it's hideous. I've made my opinions clear when you first sent out this draft that I think that I don't necessarily have issues with our rules. I just think we need to be better about enforcing them. But a couple of things I did also want to bring up is there are three sections from the original version that are removed and not included in the new version. One is what was originally 3B for groups desiring to comment, having spokespersons is removed. request to appear on the agenda has been removed and also recording of meetings has been removed and you're right thank you I don't think I I mean I there's not much here that I agree with especially the three items being removed yes

Just one thing. You said about Section 4D, just dropping the statement, members of the public wishing to comment on agenda items should approach the microphone, state their name for the record, and then give their comment. I don't think you should just do away with that. I think you should really move that up to the first public comment period and put it in there and say it. Because a lot of people do just blurt out when they come up to the microphone, my name is Joe. That's great. What's your last name?

Heather was making that comment.

yeah but i would definitely keep it just move somewhere else well it it goes against signing up for to speak because the top requires you to sign up on the on the sheet if you want to address council and then saying just come to the bucker food

i just said one other time i said one other request just to consider whenever there's a voice vote at least when i was in council if there was a voice vote or anything i really feel that the council president should vote last and not you know you don't want to sit you know people might be wondering how you're going to vote and you don't want to sit and tell them So as it's written here now,

I don't understand if you're gonna go with this or not yet, but you've added agenda. Okay, so good, good, because you've added agenda items in that. So as it's written, we would not be able to comment during the actual discussion.

Correct. Yes.

And then I was agreeing with Evan because the discussions generally do go all over the place. So you never know what's going to come up or what's gonna be said. So, I hope you don't do that. Then the other thing I didn't see here, and I don't know if it belongs in this or not, but the presentations, they used to be limited to 15 minutes, which I don't think they ever were. yeah tonight's was about 30 minutes or longer and not that it wasn't important i appreciated hearing what he had to say but i just you know if you had a rule i didn't know if you were planning on following it so and um so you're saying you're not going to do that not according to this reaction of this council okay very good thank you thank you

sorry Eric I know you worked hard and I appreciate that you took the initiative to write something I do want you to think about unintended consequences of not letting Columbia residents speak If Wright still made some crazy decision that they were going to vote on and it affected us, I would want a chance to go over and tell them, like, you might not realize it, but that affects us. And in this case, this was a decision that could have affected the Susquehanna. So I just, there are unintended consequences of that.

The problem I have is when a group outside of Columbia outside of the surrounding neighborhoods come in, cause problems.

And those nuances can be addressed in a policy. I don't think this is the policy you'd go with, but two things can be true.

That situation could have been covered by the announcement that if you are here as part of a group, you recommend them to those persons.

Yeah, we'll give you five minutes to kind of collect your collective thoughts.

But I will tell you, Colette, just knowing, just having conversations with other municipalities, we are a minority in that we do allow non-residents and non-factifiers to speak.

And I like that Columbia realizes community means something beyond some borders sometimes.

We are also a minority to allow public comment during engine during the discussion before prior to action that's why we like you all yes thank you Jesse Swigert, Columbia PA Online, 436 Logan Street. Again, with everybody else, I would carefully advise you maybe watch some YouTube, look at some town meetings. You may be opening up yourselves to some litigation, or you might not. It all depends on who you're rubbing the wrong way.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you all. Yeah, please take care of that.

When you say the public gets five minutes, that's not true.

There's many, many a time I come up here. Council will take four of my five minutes to answer me. How is that fair?

Say it again. When we go off a 10-minute rule, and normally when, like today you had a discussion with the mayor about e-bikes, I totally ignored that 10-minute rule because he took up most of your time. I understand that.

Yes. So what do you do to correct that?

Yes, but do you keep track of your time?

No, we don't have to. But that takes my time.

But then you don't ask questions and we won't answer.

How are we going to participate?

It's a comment period, not a question and answer session.

Their time is done. But that can be a discussion.

I understand. I know, but then what happens is that there's a comeback. That's what's not supposed to happen.

But you had said something that's in the packet, and Heather said it's not, and she is 110% correct. There's a lot of things that's not in here that's not brought up. So let me give you an example. You're in the process of hiring a finance manager tonight. Am I understanding we're not going to get to three minutes no more? I think it's one of the best things you ever did. Because how do I know? I have questions on how you're hiring, your process. How do I know? I want to come back to the next meeting. Well, that's already done. The person's hired or they're not hired. And how is that fair to the public to come here after the fact when we can find out why we're here? That three minutes was absolutely the best thing you ever put in there, Heather. Tell me some more about this 10-minute rule.

Isn't that what you proposed when you took over the president?

Yes, that's what we're running under. There are some people, like the other day, I think I was stopped on the five-minute rule.

No.

No? And you did give me ten minutes, okay?

I record all my sorts of stuff. I don't know that Eric has cut anyone off yet.

Thank you.

No. Yeah, no. Should we get the timer out again?

Cut me off. We can pull the timer.

That's it.

That's it. Well, you cut me off. I can say you didn't cut anybody off. But anyway, I just. i there was things i started to read in there i thought well this is going to be for a work session they ain't going to go through with this but it didn't make it to a work session and it was the same thing when paul was up there we had that rule in there that that 12 or 15 minutes you stop it right there then it goes you have to come back to a work session and i wanted things just change you just You're wishy-washy. That's what I don't like about it. So we are going to have, oh, we don't know if we're going to have the three-minute rule. I can't even remember what I'm writing. Sorry about that. All right. We'll see where it goes.

I think you need. you have to understand a lot i mean many presentations just like tonight although we knew it was coming we didn't have any details with us first we saw that presentation so you know so if you're going to limit to a 10-minute presentation the council is going to have to save the questions the current version does say groups or individuals appearing should plan to keep their presentation under 15 minutes additional time may be granted at council's discretion yes

always a thing like you hear Mark Klatsch when he comes in he knows I'm always like Mark you have 15 minutes I mean I was always telling him you've got 15 minutes you need to read it that's the way that you do it all right so what's going on well it's on there it's on there so you need to call for a motion to call for a motion on the item I would like to make a motion i would like to make a motion to table resolution 2026-16 rules of the quorum until the next work session i have a motion to table resolution 2026-16 rules of the quorum councilman i think second by conference

some things we talked about at least like highlighted or something going out to think

No, it's not. It is, but it's a different piece of it. It's specific.

It's to do a snow machine going on to the 200 block of Locust Street by Hinkle's Restaurant from 6 to 7 every Saturday evening. And luminaries from 2nd to 5th on Locust Saturdays only. That was actually just Locust. I'm going to pass that one now so you can't go back to it. Yeah, I'm fine with it.

I'm fine with the way it was. Okay, thank you.

That was cool. That would be cool. Senator Clayman, Chief, I'll be on it as the Police Open Records Officer for 2026-27. So moved. Thank you.

Jack, you and I went through this back in January, and there is no differentiation between a police open records officer and a regular records officer. The way it has always been in the past is we had the open records officer and an alternate open records officer. That was always the borough manager was the officer and the chief of police was the alternate.

At the beginning of this year,

So are we putting Holly as the alternate? Because the only reason I'm asking is the open records legislation is very clear and it doesn't really allow for two open records officers. it and who's not um so it is recommended that you only have one officer and one alternate or you could have multiple alternates but there's nothing in the legislation that is specific for police open records

Let's make Holly the alternate, and we will assign her the police open records.

Yeah, that was kind of how it went. It was like an informal, she did the police stuff, but she was the alternate.

Sure, sure. And we'll still leave Paula's name as an active open records alternate on the borough side. Thank you.

So then we should amend the motion to say appointing Holly Arndt as an alternate open records officer.

I amend my motion to consider appointment of Chief Holly Arndt as the alternate open records officer for 2026-2027.

There is no paper for that, Craig. There's no paperwork for that.

What do you mean by that?

The one we just were doing. I was assuming that's what you were going to ask about.

No. I'd like to know for sure what that all consists of. My understanding is if I put a request in the open records, this person would fill that out. What else does that consist of?

that's it that's basically it right i mean they you know obviously sometimes they contact me if they get one but other than that they are there i just want to be sure on that yeah thank you i have a question i have questions concerns uh i have motion before i consider

the open records officer for 26-27 motion by councilman byers second by councilman cooper all in favor say aye aye and we need to make sure that gets changed on the website tomorrow Well, she took knowledge wasn't it? From Robert Fisher. Yeah. She gave a reason.

Salute.

I had a motion by Councilman Murphy, seconded by Councilman Cooper, to acknowledge the resignation of Paula Fisher from the Planning Commission. All in favor say aye. Aye. Motion to authorize staff to advertise ordinance 966. So moved. Before we get into this subject, because there's things that I don't agree with, but I want to be clear and open about this. The CITES. The CITES.

The CITES.

The CITES. The CITES. The CITES. The CITES. The CITES. But for them to see what we're considering. I just want to be out there. Yeah.

That being said. I received a red line copy from. Their attorney. With things that they. As I was looking through that, I apologize. I had very little time. The last month of my life has been out of control. And so I had very little time to really focus. And I ran through it pretty quick when I got ready for the packet. So I had made a few changes. In reviewing some There's some grammar and things and mechanics that I did wanna make, that I did wanna change. I also realized looking at other model ordinances, there were some things that had been proposed in here that are not in any of the other state ordinances. or guidance from other counties. First off, the community noise level, that basically, from the way I understand it, it's kind of counteracting

the noise yeah it it really in looking at this and and kind of reviewing that further i tell you that came from your county planning commission um developed a model ordinance and that's where some of that language comes from and in looking at what you guys inserted with the decibel levels both the dba and the dbc levels um that community noise equivalent level honestly it causes more confusion than it does clarity i think you're better off to just stick with here are the decibel levels and that's that's it um yeah it really that causes a lot of confusion i don't think it adds anything really to the protection of the surrounding residents um as far as that is concerned just becomes a another um another level to read and keep track of that doesn't i don't think add anything in my opinion yeah so i would i would like to have that part removed because like i said it makes it a little too ambiguous so would that be just section

absolutely yeah so i am proposing to remove that section um in the data center definition i wanted to add where it says in um it currently says something about um a does anyone feel we need to do that or just leave it as is okay um there was also a suggestion to add a statement onto that data center ordinance to say including all data center accessory uses and data center electric substations. And I think that is, I think that's important because it actually,

may not be explicitly spelled out on our table permitted uses and therefore it creates a conflict um and it opens up litigation so yeah by including that all i think we are covered and both of those things are already defined in the ordinance as well so they're not additional correct needed definitions correct so i wanted to include that um let me see here

in sensitive receptors. I'm not quite sure why this suggestion was, but where we say places of worship, playgrounds, parks, excluding trails. I think we want to include trails. However, we could just say community parks. and we are going to have a sensitive receptor right behind there in that open space. Setbacks. Add in the original 200 feet. Ethan suggested 500 feet for more property. When I did this, I was just kind of, I wasn't really thinking and I said, you know what, let's split the difference and put 350. Oh, but when I was thinking about it and I was looking at the property with 500 feet setbacks, So it's one thing to have something allow your zoning ordinance, and it's another thing to put the restrictions so much that you can't do anything. That's another form of exclusionary zoning. So I think we need to put it back down to the 200.

500 was a number I found from a suggested ordinance. I did the same thing she did.

I mean, you're going to look online. You're making an exclusionary.

And honestly, that makes sense when you're looking at a hyperscale AI data center, which that property is not big enough for me. anything else which are you know five times quieter than a gpu you know but you're not going to have that they are five times less heat intensive and everything else so i mean i'm implying to say 200 eric i know you said you thought they seemed excessive

right heather in the current ordinance those setbacks do change a little bit based upon the size of the data yes yeah the square footage of the data center yes the footprint excuse me yes and um so they would have to comply with not just the data center ordinance but they would also have to comply with the zoning ordinance for that for that zoning district and the

Suning district setbacks are not less than 200, are they? That popped into my mind. We have to make sure that we're

i don't i would imagine that the regular setback the setbacks in the zoning ordinance for the general they're going to be significantly less than 200 200 feet i would imagine and i will say that it was requested that we make the setback 150 feet from property lines

and it was also requested that we reduce the setback to 100 feet along the property line of budding land in the conservation area district which would be the the southern portion of the uh quarry There was, let's see. Accommodate adequate parking and she has all kinds of stuff here, but it's not marked on her. Yeah, I would like to table this until I have more time to go through this sprint because I just got it yesterday. And as we all know, my yesterday was a mess.

just so we are like to close the loop on the the setbacks um in the lake business district the general setbacks are um 30 feet in the front yard the rear is 25 and the side yard is 25 feet oh so then at 200 we are you are much more restrictive yeah and in the industrial districts it's 15 feet in the front yard 15 feet in the rear and 15 feet on the side yard so yeah you you are significantly more restrictive in this these regulations for data centers than just the the general i'd want that rear setback on the concept

that back as far as possible 30 feet sounds like a good number to me all right because you need room to to grade around it uh mode i mean on that property the further back you can get it further away from everything else right and yeah i mean i'd go i'd go 50 but i wouldn't go any lower than that right here um the one the one thing i did want to mention that I inadvertently neglected to change that I do wanna change. And this is gonna be a discussion that we do need to have before we table this. And that is the zoning. I did not change it from special exception

how married to that request are we i like the conditional use better for the reasons you said i agree send it back to us can i just explain why this might become just just so you guys understand what heather is is getting at here it is um if you do it as a conditional use it is very possible that that decision gets which can draw out for several years possibly, which would, and that really, any conditional use is going to make closing within those 60 days that the borough code requires impossible, really. By the time you get an application, advertise that conditional use, have the hearing and then um and then write the decision you are probably pretty close to 60 days as it is there not to mention the appeal period is then another 30 days and so and you know that's that's where you and it could delay any potential sale for four years until that any appeals are are finalized but the 60 days is only valid during the public auction or sealed bid correct once we once we begin to

Honestly, my thought is, you know, we heard from the public that they wanted us to take our time with this. And for me, that means I'm pretty married to conditional use. And I don't know that I could, I could approve an ordinance that allowed by right because I mean, I get the fact that we need to do what's best for our community, but we have to look at all sides of it. And I understand the precarious position we're in financially and everything, but that doesn't mean we should throw everything out the window and let anyone do whatever they want just to get the money.

We have to be thoughtful about it. Absolutely. And I think, you know, i think you can i think that makes a lot of sense i think you know um i will say you have none of these restrictions would go away if you made it permitted by right right you'd have all of these restrictions still but yes if make additional use in having a public hearing is is what you guys want that's a hundred percent within your in your right and i don't i don't really want to write my zoning ordinance to make

someone else the sale of one property the sale of one property happened yeah to me that's not well it is for the one property but actually it's for a couple of properties well this yeah it could be out on this one unfortunately

Well, I think these data centers present. I think that's one thing that is incredibly important, because these data centers do present, particularly for fire companies, a different level of equipment that may be necessary to be able to fight a fire in there. And so that's something I've seen in a lot of other places, and it is really important to have that as part of it.

And I'm joking in asking. that's when when i added it i purposely added it to the open and just gave examples of things that may be required but it just says we just need to put in the in the ordinance that a community agree benefits agreement must be negotiated and designed by all parties it's going to vary from that agreement is going to vary from project to project right so The agreement should address the level of clean energy and penalties for non-compliance items that may be included are donations to the fire company, donations to programs providing utility assistance, and specific impact fees. That doesn't mean that that's all that could be in it, but that gives people an idea of

Could I ask, Kevin explained conditional use, how that works, how the special exception works. I am not for permitting this, but permitted by right, but I'm fuzzy on the difference between a conditional use and a special exception.

That's all I'm asking.

that you have to give them the specific yeah yeah so i'll tell you very much one of my colleagues always says a special exception is neither special nor an exception it basically gives you a list of criteria and if the if the person who wants to do whatever the project is meets those criteria they are they are permitted to do that but there are obviously extensive criteria as you see here and that is something that is heard by the zoning hearing board right so that would go through planning commission first and then the zoning hearing board would make a decision there a conditional use is yeah a conditional use is essentially the exact same thing except that after it goes to the planning commission the conditional use would come here to the borough council to be heard and then rather than attorney cleary issuing a decision i would issue a written decision on that so it's a large they're pretty much the same thing it's just one goes to the zoning hearing board one would come here to borough council for the side and my whole my whole rationale on that mary was that by doing it that way it makes this board

the front line for any blowback from community it takes you know our zoning hearing board out of the line of fire it takes staff out of the line of fire it it puts this board thank you mr chairman 10 minutes ago you said you recommend they take this to another meeting uh you didn't carry no weight on that one

now i have a question to heather and heather i don't mean no disrespect to you in any way but what qualifies you to write this up to take on this new zoning ordinance well the same thing that qualifies any of us to do it i'm taking an interest i've done extensive research i've participated in discussions with the county

i mean the ordinance came to us it was a suggestion from evan and as a legislative lead kelly and i were putting it together and everything i mean and we've had extensive discussions throughout this process you know to yeah and it's all it's all not from just one particular agreement it's from things that were added on that are other

So it's more than you. Who else is on that committee?

I guess what I'm thinking is somebody needs a college degree to do some of this and I was wondering if you were qualifications in that part of it.

I am qualified. I have a bachelor. I have a BA from Franklin Marshall College, and my degree was government.

That's what I was looking for.

And my minor was mathematics.

That's what I was looking for. Thank you. would not then the property have to be posted for a zoning hearing so the neighbors would be able to come and be sworn in as parties and

absolutely and the same thing happens with the conditional use it's the it's a it's a public hearing with the council essentially right so would you post that down like you do absolutely yeah yep even if i i believe you do have all of the same requirements as a zoning hearing for a conditional use but i think even if we did not we would still do all of them we would follow the same procedure that we do for a zoning hearing

and what is the advantage you said of taking the zoning board out of the line of fire isn't that why they're on the board to be why do we want to take them out of the line i'm just asking because why do we have a zoning board then if you want to take them out of the line of fire for me it was more for me it's their volunteers we were elected and you know we were elected and

and we know it's a hot button issue, you know, I don't want to throw any volunteers into that, into a mess. For me, it was just trying to be respectful. I mean, I got elected to take the abuse.

Well, right, but they applied. So, okay, thank you.

Okay. So this conversation is done.

We have to put on 1 more thing before it was tabled. It might be, are you about to talk about the zoning? Okay, never mind because that's what my concern was going to be is getting it in so we can have it to the August. I'm not worried about this.

i will say this i think in light of having just gotten this and and some some comments i think everybody needs to have a chance to be heard i think another one more month before this actually is enacted is not going to i think it's it's more important to to get it right yeah totally i just wanted to bring up because i know one of the reasons we wanted to discuss this was to get the zoning in before the august county meeting so i just wanted to see if that's still something we wanted to do of just submitting the zoning change but not the other stuff

okay just wanted to check yeah i'll table my motion

i have a motion by councilman buyer second by councilman cooper at the table the advertised ordinance for 966. um next one um i understand what we have to do but you don't have to do anything on this you you do need a motion to remove it from the table and vote on that and then yeah

okay i would like to make a motion that we leave this on the table yes because it's basically a motion to not remove it from the table i second that motion the whole point of tabling it last time was because we wanted the data center ordinance to be done before we issued this so if we're not done with the data center ordinance it makes no sense to reissue issuing this before we have the origins ready to go it opens us up to someone saying you know it's inconsistent and that you issued this so we put our stuff in on the old on the original zoning ordinance and now you're not going to honor that and that's liable so your motion is to table i would like to i would like to make a motion that we do not remove this from the table and push it to the next workshop i have

yep so i have a motion to table rfp until the next workshop july 7th july 7th the motion was by councilman so this next one we're not gonna no we don't need to take actions that's right record that motion to consider approval of sale agreement between the Columbia Economic Development Corporation and the borough for 137 147 149 so front street that is the old firehouse Um, I believe there are some very slight changes to this.

We just received some requests for changes from the CDC today. Um, so. if in there they are not anything that would materially change this agreement it's just a couple of of language issues um so we can either you know i think either if you'd like to table it or approve um approve the agreement of sale as long as it's acceptable to the borough manager and the borough solicitor i think you could do that as well if you wanted to keep it moving

like i said none of those changes are going to materially change this agreement as it's presented well one i have i have a question and this is not materially changing it it is it's a conflict so however which means next week and then it says in the due diligence section the closing within period shall automatically be extended by 60 days unless terminated by either party.

it looks like that's what was listed in the contract as yeah a red line change yeah yeah yeah i think we can we can update that um i didn't see it at the end of three oh yeah yeah perhaps closing should take place within 60 days or by removing the due diligence period as described yes yep

we originally drafted this a few months ago that made a lot a lot more sense but it yeah yeah yeah um and the question about is the bird willing to pay a tt um i would say

get that back when they sell it to the other person, we're going to get that back from the other sale. I mean, that was my thought. I don't know what anyone else is thinking.

Just so I understand, CDC is buying this from the BRRRR.

We're basically in this contract giving them the authority to market that property. Once they market and find a buyer, we will sell to them and we read on price. We will sell to them, they return, sell to the buyers.

Okay, they're the in-between person. So that amount that they've come up with, I don't have that up in my notes. 2.15. four and five so that's just a number on paper really don't mean that that's that's the increased value of the property okay and then like you just said when they sell forget our money um so this is the firehouse this is a sewer plant no no no this is this is the firehouse and a couple of properties that surround the right around it It's nothing with the surf plan or the highway.

No, it is not.

I'm happy with what Evan suggested of agreeing to it with changes that Jack and Evan both agree with. Was there already a motion for this? Well, I'll make a motion to consider approval of a sales agreement between the Columbia Economic Development Corporation and the borough for the 137, 147 and 149 South Front Street property with changes under approval by the solicitor and borough manager.

All right, so I have a motion by Councilman Byers, seconded by Councilman Murphy to approve the sale agreement between the Columbia Economic Development Corporation and the borough for 137, 147, 149 South Front Street with the changes to be made and approved by the borough solicitor and the borough manager. All in favor say aye. Aye. motion to consider hiring tracy weaver with a position of finance manager contingent upon passage of background check and medical evaluation so frank your information the finance manager went through uh the borough manager and uh brian Brown plus accounting firm. She did interviews with Brown and then it was three of those four pluses.

For multiple interviews, staff as well interviewed her and the previous assistant manager, Jim.

So that's who did the interview for this position.

And since then, she's been the township treasurer in Mount Joy Township since April of 2024, correct? That's correct.

So I also know there's an error in the requested salary. Instead of $81,000, it's actually $83,000.

I know we can jump that high, but at the same token, our salaries are low in comparison.

But not only that, we're spending significantly more than that on round bus. Again, this was for $1,828.98.

i'll make a motion to consider or to hire tracy weaver for the position of finance manager okay so

on our actual job description for the finance manager it reads education equivalent to four years or more of post-secondary instruction in an accredited college or university in accounting or similar course of study she does not have any of that she does have two years municipal experience but she does not have any of the educational requirements that we have directly in her own job description And I also think it's an awful lot of money to pay someone who doesn't have the educational qualifications that we're specifically in here that we're looking for.

Okay, that's fair. I think she's been doing the job.

She sat with Lori one afternoon. One afternoon?

Yes. And she understood everything Lori was doing.

There were a couple of things that she got to learn but it wasn't much and she was getting the hang of it. Just being there with her. I think that we've tried the educated group and that hasn't worked. But the tri-center is actually doing the job.

discretion yeah yeah yeah well here's another suggestion that I heard people don't want to come here to work we have discussed way back when about outsourcing this have we looked at that to see what those are of course I thought there was another place that you could look at to outsource the entire finance department versus we did discuss that way back when but it never went anywhere I mean I just think it's an awful lot of money and it's over the budget what was budgeted the amount budgeted for this person isn't well i understand that but we're also going to continue to pay brown while she's here until she can she's not coming in on day one and hitting the ground running and doing the job we're still going to have to pay brown what we're paying them until she's up to speed with the training or whatever to be able to do the job so we're still having to pay that regardless and i i want to be clear through the interview process you you guys came for about six months was it

We laid out a training plan for guests, and Councilperson Giese is correct. It would involve Brown's bus and their professional staff.

We're longer.

If the person decides to leave, like we did the last time, we're going to end up paying that longer. Should we do the process again and find someone?

The 2 questions I have for those that did interviews, which I was involved in, so just asking. My 2 biggest concerns and looking through. What skill level is there is number 1. Is she able to really help us develop a budget? We really need a solid workable budget for next year. And the 2nd thing is, as far as evaluation of our. Of our systems, we know some of our systems are. antiquated and outdated and really there's a better way to get from a to b i mean you know not not she has to do it herself but you know bring in some advice as well we really need to evaluate our system to really do we discuss budgeting with her uh she has the experience and she is confident that she can help in our process yes

As far as evaluating, she has already made recommendations to us on some potential changes in cost-saving measures.

She does have the municipal experience, but if you look back through her resume, she has more experience as an administrative assistant versus being in the finance department. Well, that's my last thing.

There is also, she was treasurer at a nonprofit organization from 2018 to 2023. So it's not like she has no finance experience.

She has experience, she just doesn't have the education qualifications that you're specifically looking for.

And I understand that. I'll just say from my experience doing hiring at private companies for obviously a very different thing and very different type of work, the best workers that we hired were people who did not have that professional experience. and who we discounted initially when we were looking through applications. I don't necessarily think that it is make or break to have a specific degree in a specific field. I care more about somebody doing the job and having the information. And from what I understand from the resume and the interviews, I feel like she fits that criteria for me, at least. And you don't have people not

There's nothing like having that employee in-house. If you're around here, you see that almost daily there's questions that the finance manager needs to answer. You can't make phone calls every day.

Additionally, her administrative experience might be beneficial because as I understand it, previous finance managers did handle a good amount of administrative work in addition to the finance manager responsibilities. So in some ways, it's kind of nice for her to have both experiences.

She is very comfortable in the area of human resources. So she's looking forward to taking on those responsibilities. was the difference between the budget salary and the negotiated one sure um it's currently it's budgeted for 77 000 so the difference is 5 950 dollars i'll give up my pay to make up that guy i will say when i interviewed for the first time when i did my interview sometimes i asked off the wall stuff but

questions about things that I knew from the position just being in it and the only thing that I was asking her that she did not have full knowledge on

I felt she would be able to handle it.

I see on her application, she's a member of GFOA PA, which is pretty much anyone that's a member of that is using those resources. So I have no doubt that if she had questions or whatever, and I still get emails And they're always sending out reminders of, hey, this is, you know, these government reports are due. If you have questions, let us know, you know, things like that.

So, I mean, that's a good organization to go on to.

So government financing, financing professionals at the medical center.

And that knowledge base was before she worked in Mount Joy, correct?

Well, it probably is part of Mount Joy, yes. I also, I talked to Justin Evans. He's our Planning Commission Chair. He highly recommends her. And I respected his opinion on that. I respect him. Some other people that, you know, I've met in different things that are familiar with her, they have all said, you know, they feel that she would do a good job. And personality wise, she fits.

She has a very good personality and indicates that she likes to be busy and she's a worker, which is what we need here.

And honestly, you hire personality, you can teach skill.

Are you sure you got anything else? You know, I'm doing less than you. You're in charge. You can say yes, no, or whatever. But I figured if it was lower than what was in the packet, what I got right here, she'd be the least person I would ever have. Why is the difference in wanting more money? First of all, what a question. I don't want to forget this. So no council people interviewed her for this job at this time. She applied back in 25.

She applied back in 25. She was on a list of candidates. We didn't receive any candidates. So Jack took that list of previous candidates and reached out to her.

Okay, but none of us interviewed her lately.

Yeah.

Now, She's working for Mount Joy Township, I think it is. So if you hire her and she's another dud, now she's lost her job at the township. I look at what you have done in your hiring recently. The last guy that they hired from Mountainville, I sit here that night, you would have thought the White Council and the mayor spoke with him. He walked on water. Was he here, what, a week, two weeks? Gone. He didn't have a clue, I don't think, of what the job required. And I'll go back to the next question, the question I asked originally. Why the difference in the money? Why $5,000 more?

What's that? Foreign negotiations. I will say, Jackie Bernhofer, she came back with a different price.

Is it what?

Jack gave her an offer. She counted that offer.

ahead of this. I did do some research on what is the sort of standard salary for a borough finance manager. And it's like 104,000. Yes. So we are under significantly what she could be making in other places if she wanted to. But I don't see the difference in $5,000 being that great, in my opinion.

Like I said, you're in charge. You do it the way you want to do it. But when you come up with them figures and you pay $104 or $109 or $110, you're getting a qualified manager. I would hope that the people research it. And that's what we're paying for. We're paying a lot of money for something that she's going to get six months training. Are we going to do the same thing that happened with Jack, that they brought a guy in from a, someone in from another township and trained them, we're going to pay extra money too? Is it going to end up being that? Who's going to train her?

Who? The accounting firm. So what are we going to pay them?

We're currently paying them. We're going to pay them and we'll pay her.

that training is also not from scratch like she hasn't done this before that's getting her up to speed on our specific situation right it's more onboarding than it is training that's not an everyday thing no yeah and i mean a good deal of the training will be getting her acclimated with edmunds and that's all done by the company and that's all free nothing free heather uh

We pay admins a lot for accounting software, but it's not like we're paying them extra.

You talk about what we're paying this accounting firm we have now, but we're not paying them fringe benefits. Now, what you're paying her, you're talking another $30,000, $35,000 on top of that for fringe benefits. That's a lot of money for that job. For a good, qualified person, I probably wouldn't even be standing up here. But from what I see right here, she didn't graduate the school. She got a GED. She had, what, six months in grade school. Why? Why are you people talking about this? You're going to pay that kind of money? I don't agree with Zink, but not Zink, I'm sorry. But I have to agree with her. I just hope somebody does their homework. It's an awful lot of money to pay for somebody that's not experienced. I know what you put in the packet. I know what I got here. I'm sorry.

How long is the probationary period?

90 days.

90 days.

You don't have a job you already have.

You must be confident.

Council member had said recently. We don't look too good in our hiring process. That's why we can't get anybody. I'm sorry.

Thank you. Any other discussion? I have a motion by Councilman Beyer, seconded by Councilman Cooper to hire Tracy Weaver for position of finance manager contingent upon passage of background check and medical evaluation Starting salary of? Right. All in favor say aye. Aye. The motion to consider approval of the trail agreement between the Stumberland International Memorial Trail Alliance and the borough. That's the general agreement we spoke about.

Yes.

So just so you are aware, Jack emailed me a copy of this agreement last week. There is one one issue with it in that it states that in one of the whereas clauses that the alliance owns and maintains a recreational trail through the borough i think that is not the case i'm guessing that is from some some form agreement that they got i have emailed his name is mr mccauley um i've emailed him i haven't heard back yet but that's the only thing i think this is a relatively simple agreement to allow them to place those those wayfinding signs that he talked about yeah

The satisfactory negotiation of the agreement. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.

Yep. Exactly what you did with the previous 1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I will make a motion that we approve the agreement between the borough and the September 11th National Memorial Trail Alliance contingent upon the satisfactory negotiation on the having those changes acceptable to the solicitor and for a manager sunday we've got all that yeah word for word sorry i tried to like make it good

Okay. I have a motion by Councilman Saver. First. Second. Second. Second by Councilman Kesey. It's considered approval of the trail agreement between Stemmerloach National and Royal Trail Alliance and the borough, conviction upon succession. All in favor say aye. Aye. Motion to consider a change in banking institutions.

change banking institutions oh sorry I'll make a motion that we switch banks banking institutions the least amount of fees than the most interest paid. And they've been around a lot longer. They have a lot more banks and a lot more government experience, municipal experience than the other three times now.

So just for the rest of the council, let me see. councilman cooper who are able to attend all of the it also

Thank you for going into the effort of looking at the different options. I know originally we were just talking about an easy switch, but I do appreciate, even if it's the same result, going into the effort of looking at the options and seeing what our best choice was. So thank you, all of you.

Motion to consider a change in banking institutions from close bank to full bank. Motion by Councilman Zink, seconded by Councilman Murphy. All in favor say aye. Aye. second by councilman cooper to acknowledge the resignation of patrol officer blaze all affairs say aye aye

obviously we've had a lot going on in the last week with all the ordinances and these agreements um one thing i will highlight i did this evening some some short training with chief arnt on the right to know law um to make sure that she is up to speed on everything and is you know knows where to come ask questions when she needs them um so that was that was really good tonight so that's all i have

As you know, I was not here. Burn manager.

I don't have anything.

Thank you. Board's commissions and committees. The upcoming meetings. Minutes approved. Planning Commission, March 17, 2026. Borough Council comments. We'll start with Councilman Zegler. Just kudos to our Columbia Borough Fire Department and our Police Department. I know they had a structure fire that involved three or four buildings at this point.

and also to the folks that assisted them. So thank you for your continued bravery and service to the borough.

As Mayor Lutz already suggested or commented on, we are going to sit down at 9 o'clock tomorrow and we're going to be brainstorming some valid legal and good ideas in reference to our electronic bike situation, our e-bike situation.

no one else mentioned it so i just wanted to

Let it be known, last week on Tuesday, Congressman Smucker was here to present the official congressional record to Columbia Borough in honor of Columbia 300. He presented the actual record that was read on the floor of the US House of Representatives. honoring columbia borough and then wednesday evening we had the county commissioner meeting here in columbia borough and they presented columbia with the proclamation um in honor of the columbia 300. so it's pretty cool um you know i would encourage anyone as as or elected representatives or as elected officials from outside of the borough when they come, I'd encourage everyone to come in and meet them. And that FaceTime is always helpful. It was a good crowd tonight overall. And I thank you for your concern.

Yeah, real quick, I just wanted to give an update. I know some people were asking me about the Columbia Borough Municipal Facebook page. So I was speaking with Jack a couple days ago, or maybe it was last week. So at this point, we have tried a lot of avenues in order to get access to the page. We're going to keep trying, but at this point, we are going to create new pages. um for the market house and for the municipal office if this changes in the future and we get access right yeah sorry my mistake they got access to that one it was the just the other ones So we're going to get a new one set up. If at some point we get access to the old one, we'll make that known. But once we have it up, I'll share it. We'll share it on the Crime Watch and all of the other municipal adjacent pages as well to get people to follow it. And we'll figure out the schedule as far as how often and what we're going to be putting there. But it'll be a lot of reminders, announcements of meetings, things like that.

Would we be able to, when he does that, would we be able to send one of those messages out? You know how we get the message, right? The road's going to be closed or something like that. Text my dog. Yeah, we could, well, we don't have to use text my dog. We can use, how do you want to do it? Is that what you're asking for? You want to use text my dog? I guess. I didn't know what it was called. Yeah. So, yeah.

I mean, that would be. I do. I've seen you get two texts in one day and nothing. This coming weekend is Riverfest. I believe it starts Thursday, but I'm not 100% sure. Sunday, they're letting the piers always cross the river. They're shutting down 462 Bridge to absorb the piers. I believe that's from 7 to 9. 68. Um and also uh the we'll be doing a doing party down here. They'll start the election in the afternoon. Uh and then food trucks Okay. Okay. i didn't get down here early enough um but i wanted to