Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

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Heat. Hey, Heat. Hey, hey, hey. It's 6:30. I'd like to call the meeting to order. Um, could you please stand as able for the pledge? I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for it stands one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all. You may be seated. Right. We're going to take the agenda slightly out of order. We're going to um to move the training. our uh attorney tells me that that needs to be part of the meeting, but I would like to move that to the end so we don't delay um our other business and there's there's folks in the room specifically for those

items. So, um and we will um we'll move reports down um to later as well, but I would like to ask for a motion. I did notice in the minutes of the meeting that um Miss Hoisington was not marked as present and I think she certainly was present and um we showed that the votes were 70. So um I'd like to um to uh have that amended to add u Miss Hoisington you were present correct. Um any any on the I have two. Go ahead.

Um on on under the minutes under it would be page one or page three in our packet of page one under the where it says minutes. Yes. It says made by Commissioner Neim and seconded by Chair Teddona. I just caught that. Replace it with chair chair Teddona with Commissioner Teddona in that one. Correct. And members listed present was six and it was it was seven present because Hoisington was here.

And then on the almost the very last item on on page six or page eight in the packet where it says motion to recommend approval resolution number 2026-001R crab cakes on the lake conditioning permit with amending to four operating days. We need to change that and clarify. It should state amended to allow up to four operating days per week, not amending two four operating days per week. Okay. I have no other changes. Okay. Okay. Are there any other amendments? All right. Can I have a motion um to uh Would you like to make a motion to

make a motion to approve the minutes for planning and zoning Tuesday, February 3rd, 20 I'm sorry, for January 6, 2026. As amended. As amended. Motion second. Any comments? All in favor? I I I Any oppos? Mr. chair. I just resent your wanting to deprive the public of listening to my voice for half an hour of training and trying to get to their business instead of listening to me because that just seems like a real insult to your Well, we're we're we're building the anticip we're build we're building the anticipation.

Oh, to be totally honest with you, last time we had this meeting, uh we closed the meeting and then we had the training. That's the only reason why we're questioning it. No, I I was joking. Oh, okay. Boy, it's like show business. You always leave leave the audience wanting more. So, they're going to have to wait for the for the main act. All right. So, we will start with um with uh the the presentations. Um I believe item one and item two are going to be presented together by staff.

Good evening. That's correct. Kurt Henchel, Planning Development Services Director. Um for this is again for item number one and two what we call perimeter park west. The applicant is requesting a voluntary annexation a smallcale comprehensive plan amendment and a resoning on the subject parcel uh for the purpose of developing an industrial park. And just a a little note that planning and zoning board is not reviewing the annexation part of it right now. It's just the small scale and the reasonzoning. The property uh which is approximately 12 acres is located one a quarter mile south on Ray Good Game Parkway uh from Highway 50. What you see before you, this would be Highway 50 to the north. This is a parcel here. Again, approximately a quarter mile down on Highway 50. Due to the annexation requests being required to be presented to to the city council for consideration, both the small-scale comprehensive plan amendment and the reasoning requests are being presented with the understanding that both applications would be considered concurrently with the annexation in the future. And that again, that part will go back to uh city council. Just just a a closeup of the property. It's currently undeveloped with trees there. Uh the applicant proposes to amend the future loose map and reszone the property from Lake County designations which are currently agriculturally zoned property. This is this is a snippet from the lake county. It's currently agricultural with a lame use of what they call urban urban low density. proposed change is to go to the city's industrial future land use and a plan unit development district to develop the

property as the third phase of the perimeter park industrial park. The uses of this phase will be similar uh to the previous phases in that the permitted M1 industrial uses shall be permitted with the exception of there will be no automotive truck, trailer, motorcycle or boat repairs, sales or leasing shall be conducted on this site. The proposed PUD audits will be required to be consistent with the applicant's conceptual plan along with the city's land development codes. The conceptual plan includes approximately 185,000 square feet of industrial warehouse space distributed across three buildings. And that now I'm going to Wayne, if you don't mind zooming out a little bit, I'm going to twist this sideways for a representation to the north. Keep going, Wayne. A little bit more. Right there. So again, what you have here, this would be the ray good game side here. I'll make describe what's going on here in just a moment, but these are the three buildings representing the 185,000 square feet. There is a 100 foot rightway dedication associated with the planned uh planned ext expansion of Hook Street that will also be required. That is this area right here. This last piece connecting the Hook Street that will connect all the way from um Hancock Road all the way over to Ray Good Game Parkway. Due to the physical site constraints of a relic depressional feature in the middle of the site which is a old uh sinkhole waivers will be required for cut and fill. The maximum fill is up to 36 ft which is 11% of the site and the maximum cut is 25 ft which is over 15% of the site. The uh city traffic engineer reviewed

the traffic study exemption request and due to the low traffic generation and the established lefthand turn leftand lanes on Hardle Road uh concurs with the granting of the tier one exemption. The uh Hardle Road in that area has already been improved. There's already curb cuts and turn lanes which which show up. Uh, go back to Oh, I'm sorry. Zoom in just a little bit, Wayne. All this right here has already been improved in the past with the with the previous expansion of this is the phase one and two here. This would be phase three. All but all this has been improved already. The change in the future lane use to the city's industrial category does not propose a conflict between the existing uses in land uses within the area. The proposed future lane use is consistent with the city's comprehensive plan and its goals, objectives, and policies. The PD zoning does not propose a conflict to the existing uses and land uses in the area. The proposed use is compatible with the adjoining properties as required by the comprehensive plan. Therefore, staff does recommend approval of ordinance 2026-004 and ordinance 2026-005. That is staff's report.

All right. Thank you very much. Uh we'd like to hear from the applicant.

Good evening, chair and board members. My name is Rebecca Wilson, 215 Northola Drive. here on behalf of the applicant. We agree with the staff's recommendation and the conditions of approval and we have our whole team here to answer any questions that you all may have. Thank you very much. Is there anyone from the public who would like to make comment? All right, I will bring it back to the commission uh for questions. We'll start at my far left. Commissioner Teddona. Thank you, chair. Um, so we could bundle the two of these together, correct? Yes. All right. Let me do this as quickly as

well. Well, they they have to be passed as they're they're voted as as two separate items. I could talk about both. Yes, they were presented as as both.

All right. Can you do me a favor and pass that down? Um, I'm just of an opinion that anything that happens in Claremont should require some sort of a third party traffic study. Um, as someone who has worked in a warehouse at Kennedy Airport, it was 300,000 square feet. I have an idea how warehouses make money. Let me go back to this first one. What I'm passing out to you is uh some pictures from Google Maps. Uh Google Maps dated 2017, Google Maps dated 2021, 2023, and 2025. So maybe back in the day, phase one and phase two were great ideas. Uh I just have a problem with phase three because if you start looking at how that area was developed started to develop 2020 2017 21 23 25 that area in my opinion is just overly developed and absolutely saturated. Um, and we're going to try to fit in 183,000 square ft of warehouse plus 166 cars. And not to jump ahead, we've got another agenda item with another 25 homes and another 100 cars in an absolute bottleneck known as Ray Good Game Parkway and Hardle Road. So, I definitely have a problem with that. Um, I spoke to a couple of DOT folks. They share my concerns. In addition to 50 West, the lefthand turning lane being just at times it's not going to be continual, but nobody can guarantee me or tell me anything that it's never going to happen. That you're going to

have trucks backed up in that left turn lane. You're going to have trucks backed up on 50 eastbound, the right turn lane. Um there's no guarantee that we're not going to have trucks on uh Ray Good game trying to park into this facility. So there's all kinds of different ways that this can back up onto Ray Good Game. There's also school buses that do pickups and deliveries. So, we've got kids, school buses in that area stopping, which I did speak to a coworker who lives on Hardle Road, and it's already a nightmare with the kids and the school buses because it backs up traffic unbelievably. Um, not too sure what we're warehousing, not too sure hours of operation, not too sure if a 53-footer is going to sit in that parking lot with a twin screw tractor. Uh, are we bringing in reefers? What are we, you know, is it hazmat explosives? Um, again, as somebody who's made money at Kennedy Airport, um, these warehouses are probably in order to make money, you your your dock doors need to be open. You need to be full. You need to be running stuff. You're either consolidating, crosstocking, distributing, or storage. But in order to turn a profit, you're going to have to keep this very, very active. Um, so those are my concerns. It again, it goes back to the pictures. You've got an area that is absolutely saturated and currently Ray Good game dumps out onto a dirt road. It's not even connected yet into John Lake or Lake Road. So that nightmare just winds up getting funneled into more residential areas once that goes through. Um, just bear with me one second.

Uh, because all we all we wind up doing is rerouting traffic here. We don't do anything with traffic. It just gets rerouted. Um, I did have one little coarse comment saying that, you know, a lemonade stand probably put up in Claremont needs a traffic survey because we we are beyond uh anything just like this working. So, um, I probably have a little bit more of a deep dive, but I know we're in a press for time. So, thank you, Mr. Chair. Commissioner, can I just ask where did are these from Google? Uh, they are from Google Maps. They're also from Lake County GIS. Uh, Google Earth. Yeah. So, if you go on to Google Earth, it'll give you the archive dates. Yes, sir.

Miss Wilson, do you object to these being a part of the record? I I do not object to those being part of the record. I guess the only question I had is we would just want to know um who it was that you spoke to at the at the DOT so we can follow up with them with any concerns. I can provide you his email address. Sure.

Well, and so that's a part of the training is that you know member you as a commission are able to do your own investigations, speak to certain people. We passed the resolution to enable you to do that. But it's only allowed if you disclose uh the sources, the names um on the record so that the the applicant has the benefit of also um cross-examining or talking to them and that kind of thing. So that's important. That's fine. I mean, I have the email on my phone. If you want, I'll email it to you. I'll forward it to you. It has to be disclosed at the hearing just so you know. Sorry about that. All right, Commissioner May.

Thank you. Um, so I wanted to um thank the staff, I did request, just to let everybody know, I did request for a traffic study or I'm sorry, the request for the exemption letter which was provided. Um, I don't know if you have that so that people can, you know, ask if they have a question. Maybe John would want to see that. But based on the exemption letter, um it basically said that it was going to add an additional 229 trips uh with a 20 a.m. peak hour total and a 25 p.m. peak hour total for the site. But does that also include the previous traffic study that was done for the two warehouses? Because my understanding this is phase two, right? This is this is

phase three. Okay. Because the the first two were done at the same time and then this is done. Okay. So on that traffic study um just for clarity it did say that that one was going to add 758 trips. This was before all the residential homes were in 66 a.m. peak hours and 84 p.m. peak hours. So, I'm assuming based on the additional, it's still considered low. Um, I guess I'm just asking you based on the 66 and the 84 plus the additional 20 and the 25, it's still considered low and the exemption correct for the the exemption was requested because of that. Okay.

All right. So, um, that was reviewed by me. I'm, you know, good with that. It's a traffic uh, engineer that did all that. Now, in regards to the conditions, um, it's saying that you are allowing the project may consist up to 185,000 square feet, but this property is going to be 165,168 ft. Is it the additional square feet of the warehouse space being allowed for additional space if there needs to be space? Is there going to be storage like the other uh property has a storage facility in the back? Is there a reason why there's a discrepancy on the

I I I can address that. So the the 165 is what we were able to fit on a concept plan. We we don't have final engineering yet. So we wanted a little bit of flexibility. It doesn't necessarily have to be the 185, but um but we would like a little bit of flexibility there for final engineering. And just to disclose, I did uh I just wanted to let you know I did drive the site. Um I did visit the two warehouses, the existing warehouses that were there and I also passed by the u the site just for um easier clarity for me to be able to answer these, you know, ask these questions. Um my understanding is that we're going from a reszone of industrial I guess from agricultural I just want to make sure because it says PUD here. So I just want to they're reszoning to a PUD or to an M1

the You keep saying industrial, but I'm assuming it's a PUD with industrial use. That's what the previous one is. So, yes, they have uh so currently in the county. See agricultural, right? And you request is to go to PUB. Yes. In the city. Okay. With the M1. But the M1 designation. Okay. I just wanted to get clarity on that. Not just going strictly to industrial M1 industrial, but it's a PUD. Correct. With the M1 industrial use, the the previous

site had conditions, so we just mirrored that PUD to this one. This one's being added to it. So that's what's happening. Perfect. Okay. Um, you answer the question about the fill. Didn't we, you know, did not know that there was a uh I guess a sinkhole. So that satisfies that question that I had on that for the reason behind that. Um there was a condition I know there's a condition for habitat uh but there is no condition for it says an environmental assessment addressing habitant species shall be submitted to the city. How come there is no tree survey even though the the site is completely filled with trees? That will be forthcoming yet.

Okay. Will that be a condition that we can add? You could add you could request that. So that would be a condition that I would like to add. Okay. And then on the condition number eight, it says this plan uh this PUD will become null and void of substantial construction work has not begun within three years. I thought there was a change in our ordinance to two. So that's my question to you for our lead. The original one I believe they requested three. Now if the request is to change it back to two, that's your option. But I believe the original request was three. They've s they've met the criteria because they built the buildings already, right? So, you're saying what original request? Again, this is an add-on to that original PUD of the 2020.

Right. That's what I'm getting at. That one originally had a three. I think we were just mirroring it. But, but now that we're down to two years, I think that we need that needs to be changed down to two to mirror what's existing right now. That's fine. Just wanted to point that out to everybody. Okay. Um, Oh, I I apologize. Okay, so you answered the 185 uh sign ordinance. Uh is this a typical sign ordinance? Is this part of the sign ordinance for every type of commercial or is this specific just for this? The signs shall be limited to I didn't see any signs on the other um well I did actually on

this should mirror what we have in the code, but let me just get to Okay, that's just a question. I wasn't able to check. I wasn't I had time to check. It's not anything above and beyond what I see here.

It's this appears to be what's mirrored in our code as well. Okay. So, was there any updates to that signed code now that are different than back in 2020? I do not see any amendments to this now.

Okay. So, I just want to make sure that anything that has changed or has been updated from the 2020 to now um kind of also that's changed in the um but other than that um I had a question on number four. for fiber optic conduits and pool boxes may be uh may be required to be installed by the developer and the utility easement to extend the city's fiber optic. The city will reimburse the developer at 100% for all costs. Is that a typical standard for all developments? That's just for me to understand. That's been ongoing for many years actually. We put in here um should we want to should we want to pull conduit or pull our wire the conduit will be there. That was

is it typical that we reimburse the developer? That is very

that's just wanted to ask that question. And then on number six, 100 foot rightway for Hook Street. You described that that's going to happen. Um yeah, I don't think I have any other questions on this. And you know, the only thing that I you know, I I when it comes to industrial, it um and I know that they're going to continue their phase from phase one, two, and three. Um, but I get kind of weary on uh uh properties that go from agricultural to a low density to an industrial especially since um due to live local um live local can be allowed on this property. If if and I believe that they are going to bill because it appears that they have a very successful uh industrial um uh business here. Um, however, if this property, just to let everybody know, if this was reszone and they didn't do uh the industrial and it was sold, live local can be done on this uh because live local can only be built on properties that are non-residential. So, I just wanted to make that comment on that. Um, I was hoping that it could have been a better mixeduse, but I understand that this is a phase three, so I am good with this project going forward. So, I have no further questions.

Thank you, Commissioner Neck. Yes. Question to staff. Right now, the property belongs to Lake County. Well, it doesn't belong to Lake County. It's in Lake Countyy's jurisdiction, if that's what you mean. Who owns the property, Kurt? It's not like him. We have it. My client has it under contract. Okay. And right now it's city property. Correct. No. City property. Well, that was my question. Who owns the property? It's owned privately. It is not owned by the city nor the county. It is in the jurisdiction of the county. Interesting. Thank you. No other questions.

Commissioner Kramer. Thank you, chair. Um, if this site was developed to maximum intensity allowed under the industrial designation, um, K, would the comprehensive plan still consider that outcome compatible with the surrounding uses? They go full out. Oh, yeah. They have the surrounding uses are to the west is industrial, southwest is industrial and to the north there is high density residential. Thank you. Yeah.

Uh if this property were sold or developed in phases, do all the PUD conditions run with the land or rem and remain enforcable? Yes, they would. Okay. So, at a full buildout of 185,000 ft square feet, is this the maximum intensity reasonably anticipated under the resoning or could future amendments increase that? They could request an amendment, but it'd be before you here.

Okay. Thank you. And I think Commissioner May may have got through what I needed with this, but just just want to make sure given the tier one traffic exemption, what recourse does the city have if actual traffic volumes exceed expectations? In other words, what do we do? They're still a little higher than we thought. I'm sorry. If they do, is that what you're Yeah. So, if if what recourse does the city have if actual traffic volumes exceed projections? that I think that's what some of our commissioners are most worried about is the traffic volume in that area.

If there's a concern about that, you could put a condition in the PUD. Um may look to our attorney to maybe draft something there, but uh well, I mean, the short answer is nothing right now, right? I mean, the question is what do you do if it ends up being really successful and there's more cars and trucks as it stands the ordinance before you? Uh, nothing can be done. Okay. Thank you, Chair. I have no more questions. All right. Commissioner Hoisington. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, majority of my questions have been asked. Thank you, fellow commissioners. Um, you mentioned something about a sinkhole. Could you talk about that a little bit more?

Yes. In the It's kind of hard to see, but right right here is a large depressional area that was an we'll call it an old sinkhole. You can see it's very old because there's a lot of trees growing up through it. Um, but that is something they have to work with and that's why they're requesting the cut and fill on the pro on the parcel.

Are we concerned with since that that is a sinkhole with additional building in that area, how it's going to impact the other land areas? Um and and and I and I asked that question based on when roads just opened up and it's because there's been so much building going on. Are we worried about any other sink holes opening up in the area with additional building here with one existing sink? Well, anyone can foresee where the others will happen, but they have to do a lot of work, geotechnical work on this site when they go to fill it to make sure the site is stable. So, there's a lot of work that will go into this.

Okay. All right. Thanks. And just to be clear, the land is privately owned. It's currently in the county jurisdiction of the county. Yes. County. Okay. All right. That's I just want to clarify that. That's all I have. All right. All my questions have been answered. Um, I'd like to entertain action on item one.

I'll also I I support ordinance 20265-00005. So, I'll make I'll make a motion that we approve ordin ordinance 2026-005 perimeter park west 3 reszoning with a conditional ad of a comprehensive tree assessment being conducted in the future. Would that satisfy you, Commissioner May? Tree survey. Comprehensive tree assessment survey. Survey. There we go. Okay, we have we have a motion. Do we have a second? Second. We have a motion and a second. Any further discussion? All in favor?

I I I I Any oppose? Nay. Nay. All right. So, four to two. Um we have um item two to consider as well. Um, I would like to um at this time consider action on item number two.

Chair, I'll go ahead and make a motion that we approve ordinance 2026-009 Hardle Road subdivision SSCPA. Chairman, I believe there's a we have to go back to item one, which is actually ordinance 2026-004. That was the first one that I don't think we voted on that one yet. You voted for that. We're moving along too fast. Yeah. So, the motion was for O5. So, either you can reconsider and maybe you intended to do it as I made a mistake. All right. Okay. I read the wrong one. I have my pages wrong. So, is it 004? 04.

Item number one is 00004. Thank you. I I didn't catch the and I made mistakes. I'm sorry folks out there. All right. I'll make a motion to approve ordinance 2026-00004, perimeter park west 3, smallcale comprehensive plan amendment with the conditional ad of a comprehensive tree survey in the future. Second. So a motion and a second. All in favor of 2026004 signify by saying I. I. I. I. I. All opposed? Nay. Nay.

Still four to two. All right. Um I guess I would ask our attorney now. Now is when we really want to consider item number two. Um we if you wish. I'll go since we've already had the I I think I think for good form um I think it was uh misspoken. So I think we should go through the process um for that. So, um, do we have a motion for 2022 60005? I'll make a motion for agenda item ordinance 20226-005, Perimeter Park West 3, resoning to approve. Second. We have a motion and a second. All in favor?

I I Did you add the tree survey on that white as well? No, not on the second one. Yeah, because the conditions are on the on the second. Would you like to if you look at the with the condition of adding the comprehensive tree survey? You just added it. We have a motion with the tree survey. Do we have a second? Second. All in favor? I I All opposed. Nay.

Nay. All right. That takes care of item one and two. Uh we'll now have item three and four presented together. Good evening planning and zoning commissioners and guests. Justine Day with planning and development services. Uh presenting agenda items three and four for Hardle Road subdivision small-cale comprehensive plan and resoning. Tara Tedro as the applicant's representative is requesting annexation, a smallcale comprehensive plan amendment and a reasonzoning on the subject parcels for the purpose of developing a new subdivision served by the city's utilities. The property is located a quarter mile south of the Ray Good game Parkway and Hardle Road intersection and is approximately 10 acres. Due to annexation requests being required to be presented to the city council for consideration, both the small-scale comprehensive plan amendment and resoning requests are being presented with the understanding that both applications would be considered concurrently with the annexation request in the near future. The property is undeveloped and surrounded by properties consisting of existing residential development with lower density located on the north and east side of the subject parcel that then transitions to higher density residential subdivision to the south. The applicant is proposing to amend the future land use map and reszone the property from Lake Countyy's designations to the city's low density residential category and R2 medium density residential district. So if you look on your screen um the top

portion shows the lake county's designation. This one has split future land use category within the county. So on the left hand side is that regional office and the right hand side is that urban low and the map below that is the city's low density future land use category that they're proposing and then the top map on this page is going to be the Lake County zoning which is currently agricultural and the bottom map shows that R2 medium density residential with the city that they are proposing. The proposed density is estimated to be at 2.4 dwelling units per acre for a potential of 25 single family residential dwelling units. No variances to the city code are being requested as the applicant is willing to comply with the city codes in order to develop the property. A concept plan has been provided in order to show the potential of the site with an understanding that this is just an option for layouts. Um site plan will be reviewed and abide by the city codes prior to approval. The change in the future land use to the city's lowdensity residential category does not propose a conflict between the existing uses and land uses within the area. The proposed future land use is consistent with the considi city's comprehensive plan and its goals, objectives, and policies. The R2 zoning does not propose a conflict to the existing uses and land uses in the area. The proposed use is compatible with the adjoining properties as required by the comprehensive plan. Staff recommends approval of ordinance number 2026-00009 and ordinance number 2026-010.

This concludes staff presentation. Thank you. At this time we would like to hear from the applicant.

Good evening. Uh Rebecca Wilson, 215 North Yola Drive here on behalf of the applicant. Uh we agree with the staff's recommendations and here to answer any questions. I I think what's unusual about this one is that it's actually a the future land use is actually what we would consider a down zoning. So going from four units an acre allowed in the county down to the 2.4 in the city. And the reason we're coming to the city is we're within the JPA. This is in conformance with the JPA and the city provides our services. Okay.

All right. Thank you. At this time, I would like to open it up to any member of the public who would like to make comment. All right. Seeing none, I would like to bring it to the commission to ask questions. U this time I'll start to my right with Commissioner Hoisington. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um the only question and concern that I have is is that which is all development is traffic. How is this going to impact traffic? Do we have a latest traffic study?

So because this is only 25 units and it's a reduction in the traffic. We were not required to do a full traffic study, but we did include um on the site plan the uh what the um average daily trips would be. And if you'll pardon me a second, let me grab that um from here. And that's 281. And we're requesting, you know, uh, significantly less

fewer, sorry, fewer units than would be allowed under the, uh, development. So, we're asking for 25. And if this was developed under the county, then it would be up to 40 units. So, there would be more trips if if we were developing in accordance with that. Okay. All right. Thank you. Uhhuh.

Commissioner Kramer. Thank you, chairman. This is for staff. Is if if we approve this resoning, um are there going to be expectations for similar residential entitlements along the Hardle Road corridor? Is this is are we seeing more of this coming? I'm gonna defer to Kurt for that one.

That's fine. there. There's not many parcels this size out there. I mean, this is a very small. You can see they're only putting 25 lots on it. Does it set a precedence? It's hard to say that. Anyone that has vacant property has the ability to develop the property. So, will it spark anything else? Nothing that's not already out there that someone's already thinking about developing. I don't know if that answers your question or not, but Well, no. I I was I'm actually zooming out looking at the undeveloped property in that area and that that was my concern. So yeah,

in this and this I guess this would be for for you, Miss Wilson. Um does the reasoning allow housing types or intense or intensities that different material from the surrounding neighborhoods? I see that there are quite a few other small neighborhoods in that area.

Sure. So I so to the to the west is an industrial development and we are adjacent to really sort of its storm water area. So that creates a buffer. Then to the north is the the fire department. Um and then to the uh east is unincorporated county and you do see some estate homes there. But then our our size is similar to what is south and sort of around in the other neighborhoods that have been developed more recently. As you can see, the the the homes on the lake there um are a bit older vintage than than these neighborhoods.

Thank you. That's all the questions I have. Commissioner Neck. Okay. I'm sorry. Uh I'll keep it real brief. Uh, ma'am, what's the largest size parcel? I can't. First of all, thank you for this staff. I appreciate it. I can read this. This I can't read it. So, could I ask the applicant the largest size lot you have? So, I I want to I just want to be in fairness. This is a concept plan. You're not going more than 25 dwellings, correct? Correct.

Okay. And you don't know what the largest size would approximately would be? Um, well, I think we could divide uh 2.4 by 10. Well, I'm sorry. I'm just not I'm Well, see, I'm trying to see the on this right here. Some say 60, some I don't know if that's a six or four or That's why I'm just trying to ask. 9,000 9,000 square ft lot. All right. The width of a lot size. Oh, the width. Yes, that's So, that's listed. Um, and it is I can't see. That's why I'm asking you. Okay. 75 ft. And that's consistent with your R2. And the smallest.

That is the smallest. 75 ft is your Okay. No, listen. That's what you're telling me. I I like it. Thank you, Commissioner May. I can't read this from nothing. Yeah. Um, okay. So, again, I just wanted to disclose. I did, uh, drive by this site. Uh, it is a two-lane road. I apologize. Did you find

it's a two-lane road. The Hurdle Road is a two-lane road. Uh, the property to the north of it is actually a house uh on an acre. believe it's in in the there's actually two houses to the north of it that are acre lots. The ones across the way look like uh half an acre lots on the water. Um you go further down, there's other subdivisions. But just to let you know, it's a two-lane road. You go all the way down, you kind of wind into all these different subdivisions, subdivision, subdivision, another subdivision, another subdivision, and then you end to another subdivision. There's no way in or out. It it uh goes into a subdivision. There's a gate. You got to do a UI. You go back onto the two-lane road. You go back and you have to wind yourself back up to Hardle uh to Hardle Road to get off onto Ray Goodman Parkway. So, in regards to other um subdivisions, yes, there are, but further out um compatibility for me, it doesn't look like compatible to what is or surrounding because the other sites are larger. um in size per lot uh than this particular one. Um the question that I have is future the land use right now you're going from low density office right regional office part of it is regional office as well

correct okay regional office and urban low urban low for the county you were saying is four units to the acre. Yes. Right. But why are we jumping to R2 and not R1? That's a question to the staff. Why are we going from R1 has different lot size standards, right? So is that the reason why? Yes. So because right now they're not requesting any variances or waiverss. They're just straight zoning, meaning they can meet the criteria of the R2.

But when I see low density, I I always start with the first low density, which is R1. So why did it skip to R2? That's the requested step from where they were to here. But they weren't R1. They were but but they were also R1 at the county. Agriculture. They were agriculture. Okay. So, I'm just my question to you all is why are we going from R1? I mean R2 instead of R1.

Um because I know that I know the lot sizes I think are different. R1A is 13,000 foot lots are the requirements. R1 is 10,000 square foot lots are the requirements. And you're saying in R2, 7,500 ft² lots are the requirements. And you're saying that these are on what? No, on R2 I said 75 feet is your frontage. Is the frontage, right? But what each size of the lot are what? The square feet. Yeah. So, so the lots are not yet designed. They will they will meet

or exceed the minimums that are in your code. Okay. The reason we're asking for an R2 and not an R1 or R1A is because we are trying to sort of bridge the gap between what we believe is feasible to fit on the site and comply and also acknowledge that we're reducing from the four units an acre. So, we didn't come in and ask to keep that four. We did we did reduce to the to the 2.5

and and just a little bit about the the compatibility. You know, as you're moving from the lower density residential on the lake to the industrial that's on Ray Good game, you know, we're looking for something that has a little more density. Um, but, you know, didn't want to bring apartments or anything like that. So, so that's what we're we're looking to sort of dial up that density a little bit as you as you near the industrial development. Right. My concern though isn't under R2 it's not only just single family but it's also duplex or multi- I think uh less than does that the R2 under R2 I'm just looking in allowed

low density doesn't allow the lane use is what would prohibit our two districts as follows single family number one number two two family dwelling units having a minimum of 700 square feet. Number three, building structures or uses maintained or up. I'm just going by the ordinance here, permanent uses R2, home occupation as provided, private docks and boat houses if applicable. But you know, I saw number one single family homes and number two is two family dwelling units having 700 ft. Right. But the ladies which is the low density that would preclude it. Is that your concern is how you can preclude the duplexes?

Yeah, I mean I mean they can decide later on since it's R2 to do duplexes instead of um or or something different. Okay. I mean I'm good with you know homes that have like a side side house. The low low density shall be again this is per the comp plan part shall be single family detached homes. Okay, that's what I just wanted to get that clarity on record. Perfect. Thank you.

Um the other issue is again tons of trees on this property. I don't see a tree survey. You know, I'm the tree person here. Uh tree survey. I don't see a landscaping plan. I mean, I don't see any. I mean, I know I know this is I know this is a conceptual plan. Well, no, the I just want to let you know that the tree survey thing comes into play. Absolutely. It's part of the code requirement for when they go through the development process, right? I understand that, but it never comes in front of us. So, I just always want to make sure that the tree survey again when it goes Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can put we can double team up on

Uhhuh. Yeah. No, I know. It never comes back to us. And then in regards to open space, I mean, there's really no The open space that's only here that I see are some trees, I guess. on OS2 OS1 open space and then I guess the storm water the storm order is being considered the open space.

So we're we're meeting the codes open space requirement with 2.6 6 acres of open space and you're correct that is being dispersed uh through open space that we were trying to sort of cluster on Hardle Road to create an appropriate buffer and then also the um the storm water and that's going to be a storm water not a dry pond just a storm water pond with nothing really are you guys creating anything around it kind of a it's kind of a small site

yeah it is there's really nothing for like a mini trail or anything or there's no amenities. I mean, it's really hard, but um again, um I would be satisfied as long as we have a trace survey. Thank you. Commissioner Teddona.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. You do me a favor. Um, so we had something similar to this a couple of months ago where we had 20 town homes at three cars a town home and we heard the same thing. Um, that minimal trips, it's not going to impact anything. U, we had to remind the developer that his 20 town homes sat in the middle of an incredible area that was already over densely populated and overdeveloped. So, riding the codeick tales of my fellow commissioner, the picture that I gave you is Hardle Road is essentially one very long deadend street. Uh, it does connect to Magnolia Island Boulevard and then Magnolia Island goes down to the lake towards an HOA. There is nothing that connects to Friendship, Lost Lake, John's Lake. It's essentially one lane in, one lane out. Um, and we're looking at the potential of another 50 to 150 cars right at the opening of Hardle, which if the industrial center gets approved, all of that is going to converge right in that bottleneck that I identified before. So again, I'm not too sure in addition to tree studies and stuff like that why we don't insist on some sort of a traffic study in an area like this that is just overdeveloped and saturated. Um it is a typical cookie cutter type concept plan where houses are one on top of another. It's one lane in one lane out. There's no place to go. Um there's no open space unless you want to take a walk in a storm water pond. um you know, plot six and seven, which are odd spaced, would be a great place to put an open space or some sort of a park because now we've got that open space

and it's walkable. Um I brought up a point about how trees and have health advantages to people when um at another meeting. So I don't understand why we don't insist on stuff like that. Uh again, it's not the amount of homes, and thank you for going from four to two. It's still the potential of 150 cars on a one-way street, one way in, one way out, uh dumping onto another road that already can't handle the existing traffic. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Any other questions from commissioners? If I may, just a quick one. Uh, ma'am. Yes. I'm I had to get a magnifying glass, so I apologize about my eyesight. All right. I'm just looking when I asked for lot size because I noticed that you have a 53 foot 50 and a 56 and a 63 and a 60. So, when you get a updated conceptional plan, they're all going to be 75 ft straight across the front of the house. No, that's that's the minimum. Okay. And staff, what is the minimum for Claremont?

Is it 65? Are you looking at the radiuses? I'm looking at the front of the house. Well, but you also have to know that the there's radiuses. I understand that. So, the the code for Claremont is 75 ft at the building set back. Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. That was the question I asked you, Kirk. All right. If that's all the questions, um, I'll entertain a motion for item number three. Do I have a motion?

Yes. 09. Chair, I'll make a recommendation to approve ordinance 2026-00009 Hardle Road subdivision SSCPA. And Commissioner May, did did you want anything included for trees in that? Uh, that a tree survey is required and that a tree survey will be required. Okay, we have a motion. Do we have a second? Second. All right, we have a motion and a second. All in favor? I I. All opposed?

All right, four to two. That passes. Thank you very much. All right. At this time, um, we will go, um, to the two items at the Oh, I'm sorry. I'm just jumping the gun. We We missed a whole item number four.

All right. Why don't we do item number four now, which is ordinance number 2026-010. Is there a motion for item number four? Chair, I'll make a motion to recommend approval of ordinance 20126-010 Hardle Road subdivision resoning with the recommendation that we do a comprehensive tree study. Okay, we have a motion. Is there a second? Second. We have a motion and a second. All in favor? I I

All oppose. Hey, 4 to2. Thank you. All right, we will now move on to our training session for the planning and zoning commission which will be um part of our meeting and then we will the final agenda item will be reports. I know, right?

Is Is it the mouse? Is it clicker? Oh, this is going to be difficult. Okay. All right. Use the mouse. Can I use both if you'd like?

Okay. I'll give it a shot. All right. Uh, good evening everyone. So last most of you already had this part of the training. We're going to present it in two phases tonight. The first phase is honestly it's a rehash of what you heard last year, but you may have different questions this year than you had last year having sat um for the last year um seen things that you might have um questions on. But the way I view my job with you is to make sure that we do things the right way. You know, I try to call the balls and the strikes. And so when I'm telling you something or intervening, it's normally to make sure that it keeps us from having an issue down the line. And that's what a lot of this training is about. It's just it's going to be about sunshine, public records, quasi judicial, and the right disclosures. Okay, we'll see if this does. I don't know what's next. How about that? Yeah. and as an overview um big you know a couple planning points talk about the applicable law and we'll get into some of the meetings. All right so broad view of course in Florida we all start the the planning and zoning commission exists for one reason which is that back in the 70s they passed a statute and so pretty much all local governments have to have a board like yours. Now, they take different shapes. They don't all uh just make recommendations. They don't all um sometimes in some cities when you make a recommendation, they have to have a supermajority to override it. I'm sure some of you would be interested in that. Um and so they take different shapes and sizes, but our planning and zoning commission does some things that others don't do as well. The very bare minimum of what you're supposed to do is deal with comp plan amendments. That's what you were originally supposed to do. And of course, the main reason why they

created the comprehensive plan statute back in the 70s is that a in a lot of local governments, moneyed interests were kind of able to take advantage and ram things through with no notice, with no warning, without input from people like you, volunteers really, who are concerned about the community. And people were taking advantage of it. So the Florida legislature passed the statute and the first thing it required of course is the local governments to create a long-term vision of what they saw for the city or the county as may be the case. So what it talks about here comprehensive plans are generally written after assessing needs and considering the best interests of the residents. You have I think I don't know if it was passed out by Mr. Norris or someone else. But, you know, there's a there's going to be a very interactive process in the next few weeks about maybe changes to your comp plan, the zoning code, that kind of thing. There it is. And uh it uses a word I've never heard before. Cherrett, it's it's more sophisticated than I am. I'm from the streets. Um, in any event, the idea is that in order for a city to come up with its comprehensive plan, it has to get input from as many different stakeholders and people as possible. And that's what the statute contemplates. Again, at a bare minimum, you have this statute that helps you identify factors that will shape the future development and create a blueprint for that development. For example, there has to be a transportation element. You can't just do away with that. Comp plans also identify hazards and threats for plan and plan for mitigation and resiliency. They must protect property rights. That's something that has been more emphasized in the past few years in this legislature and this governor in particular. Uh we're always supposed to be considering the property rights. You do continuously amend them. And that's I think all I have to say about that.

If you look at your comprehensive plan as it exists, this was the table of contents. Um, there are some things in here you don't see in comp plans in other cities. Um, but the future land use chapter, I just took a a quick excerpt of it. When you're looking at future land use map amendments, the big thing that you're being asked to do is, is this consistent with what you see in the comp plan document? Now, no one can charge you with complete knowledge of what that comp plan says all the time, but every now and then there will be something that appears in front of you that does not fit your comprehensive plan. Um, in fact, that happened to me recently. I I serve as a special magistrate in Citrus County and they asked me to preside over whether or not a developer should be able to put a sand mine in. Now, sand mines are like a lot of development, controversial, but like really controversial because if you take 300 acres and you're putting a sand mine in, that could disrupt everyone's lives around it, especially if there isn't a proper screening, um, all that kind of stuff. So, I had to make the recommendation of the county commission there. My only job was to determine whether or not it was consistent with the comprehensive plan. I'm only going to tell you this as an example. There were four things I had to think about that were in the comp plan that were relevant. Um, one was um, does it help a property owner satisfy their mineral rights? Well, a sandmine does do that. So, it was consistent with that element. And then check it checked the box one, two, three. And then I realized at the end of the hearing there was only one expert witness. And I, like you have to make decisions based on the evidence at the hearing. I can't just create evidence. And I realized the expert hadn't talked about the fourth element in the comp plan, which was, "Can it be returned to the state it was when the sand mine is done?" So I asked the expert, I said,

"Oh, I just got a last question for you. Can this ever be returned to the way?" And the expert goes, "Of course not. This is going to be a sand mine. I can't put trees. I can't put I" was like, "That makes my job easy." Um, the whole time I thought I was going to find that it was consistent with the comp plan, but then based on the evidence I had something that it wasn't. So, I had to recommend to the county commission and it be denied. Um, and then FDOT took the property and dug the sand out anyways. Um, although I will say this, on the first week, they lost a crane to the water that seeped up from the bottom that they didn't know about. So, all right. I really like this graph because I think it helps give you a visual of what's really going on every time we do anything in the city when it comes to development. Uh planning and zoning discretion pyramid. The comp plan is your irreducible minimum. That is the vision upon which everything else gets narrowed and constrained. So your zoning whatever the zoning is is dictated in part by the comprehensive plan. It can't go outside the bounds of the comprehensive plan. The subdivision and plats can't go outside of the zoning. The variances are dictated by the subdivision and plat and so on all the way up to the most specific use. Now you are the front lines because as you know you really primarily deal with comprehensive plan and zoning. So you're at that most foundational level. And I've heard city council members say they want you to talk about the standards that you want to see. But your standards right now are really dictated by what's in that comp plan and what you think is appropriate with the zoning as dictated by what you can think about when we talk about reszoning. So there's a couple elements, right? And we'll get to that. I I talked to you last year about the origins of zoning law. I told you it started hundreds of years ago. Um I talked to you about how the public

reacted poorly to a gunpowder mill in the middle of a neighborhood. And you know, we have experienced similar things like that in the last year that I've been your city attorney where people are trying to do something that seems really inconsistent with the neighboring uses. So that led over time to more and more zoning regulations. Um in 1926 the Supreme Court created really the foundation for what zoning is today for better or for worse through the Uklid decision holding that municipalities like ours can impose zoning restrictions. Now they were very controversial at the time um but they are accepted in pretty much everywhere now. Um they derive from what we call the police power and I'll give you an example of police power. In um Miami in the 1970s there was a case where a house burned down and they determined that the reason why the house burned down is that the city messed up the electrical inspection. like if they had just caught the issue which was glaring in the electrical inspection, then the house wouldn't have burned down. So, the house owner naturally sued the city. Well, the court said, "No, you can't sue the city for that. That's just an exercise of its police power because it's acting in the health, safety, welfare of the residents. They got immunity. You're not going to be able to sue a city for that. Just so you have police power to impose these zoning regulations throughout uh the city limits so long as there's what we call a rational basis. It's got to kind of make sense. It doesn't really need to make sense under rational basis. It just has to kind of make sense. Meaning you have to have a reason. It can be the reason you you want whether there's evidence supporting it or not. Just got to be a reason. Meaning you have a lot of discretion. Um, we use police power for code enforcement as well. Um, again, for better or for worse. Um, I think that's

probably all I really need to go into on that. We do have specific statutes that outline, I told you about the statute before, that there has to be a local planning agency to consider comp plan amendments and resoning. Um, a lot of people don't realize that we actually can have a non- voting schoolboard member for this uh commission. I don't know if they've appointed one or not, but

of right. Um, so um yeah, you have a general responsibility for planning specific duties outlined by your land development code and these are all things most of you are very well aware of. the relevant provisions of the charter. There's not actually a lot. If you look at section 62 of the charter, it just says the city council shall appoint a planning and zoning commission. Now, the city council is of course in a way kind of your bosses. They have the power of appointment and removal. Um, but that's that's the bare minimum of what it says. And really, I mean, that's it's very very bare. So, we actually have some discretion in what we do here. But the cl the Claremont City Code goes into a little more detail. It talks what is the purpose. It's to develop a code. Um got to be consistent with the comprehensive plan in section 101-4. Um you have to have regular meetings and then you're going to broadly use the rules of procedure 11th edition. Now those are outdated but the current rules are pretty consistent with the 11th edition and that's what we try to follow. conditional use permits. So, I think about four or five months ago, we created one or two page standard sheet for you that you can just refer to, you can bring with you. These are the things that really guide uh your inquiry. So, when we talk about conditional use permits, this is the section I'm always looking at when we're talking. That's literally what's going to be on my screen when you're asking questions. And I'm kind of thinking to myself, well, is this question about transportation? Is this question about I mean the biggest thing I hear from y'all is really about compatibility of development and transportation. Um although you notice at number seven um Commissioner Neim also often brings up solid waste disposal. So that's in there and um is

there a dumpster uh utilities but those are the big things right? Um and that's why you'll hear me sometimes uh direct you that way. Ethics I mean you have ethics requirements. Gosh, you know, just like the members of the city council do. Um, they are contained in chapter 112 of the Florida statutes. Um, these are some examples of prohibited conduct. Solicitation, acceptance of gifts. Developers can't give you a $1,000 ticket to the Super Bowl. And if if it's in the expectation that they're going to get something out of it. Now, they might tell you they don't. Hey, you know, we don't expect anything out of this, but you know better, right? So, don't take that kind of a gift. Um, misuse of public position is the big thing that we see because it's hard to know all the ways that someone can misuse a public position. Sometimes it's that adage that you know it when you see it. Um, you know, someone getting benefits in a way that's obvious and wouldn't have happened but for their position. Now, in in your role, it's it's not your your universe that you're interested in is relatively limited compared to like the city council, per se. So, we don't always, especially when it's just a recommendation board, have these issues, but there's no substitute for vigilance. And if you ever have questions about something, I I urge you to contact me. I'll make myself available to talk to you about it. Voting conflicts of interest. In Florida, you are required to vote on everything unless you have an actual conflict of interest. Sometimes city council members will ask me, you know, can I do I have to vote on this or can I abstain? And a lot of times I'll say, no, you you have to vote. And they're like, well, it doesn't look good. I don't care. The reality is looking good isn't the standard. You have to have a conflict of interest in order to not vote. And that goes for you as well. We've talked a little bit about disclosures. I mean, I don't think that's ever been a problem here. You

know, since we passed the resolution, if you go to see a site, disclose it. I don't need the time. I don't need to know if it was a full moon out. Um, but we need to know because then that's relevant for your determination, your vote maybe. You know, that's I went at this uh on this day and looked. It's a pretty low bar. The the actual misuse of public position one is worth reading. So, this is um 112.312 sub6. No public officer, employee of an agency, or local government attorney shall corruptly use or attempt to use his or her official position for any property or resource which may be within his or her trust or perform his or her official duties to secure a special privilege, benefit, or exemption. Now, that word special matters because it's not taking a postit, a pad of postits. It's not getting a pen up here. That's not a special privilege or benefit. A special privilege or benefit might be if the city of Claremont owned a box to an Orlando Magic game and then you getting the tickets that you got for free as a C planning board member and then reselling that. That's a special benefit or privilege. That is a misuse of a position. Okay, that's textbook. Again, never been a problem here, by the way. So, I'm just talking to you about the the big picture here. Yeah. Well, you have a lot of other awesome sports, but I haven't seen a box at the NTC yet. So, um maybe they have a special swim lane. Um so, there are mandatory comp planments like we talked about. I just list them. Oops. I list them. You know what they are. Um optional ones include these. Some of these may end up um going in there or being removed. We're we're about to

embark maybe on the most the biggest change to a comp plan that the city's ever had. So now's your chance to be heard. Um plans must provide meaningful guidelines. You think of that pyramid. You know, the plans inform the zoning which and inform the codes. Now the land development codes also have to address certain things. The use of land and water, the subdivision of land, flooding, uh signage. We actually have to address signage. I don't know if we really need to go over this. There's such thing as smallcale future land use amendments. It used to be like 10 acres or less. Now it's 50. Um expedited a review process. That's we we engage in a lot of that mostly at the staff level. Um compatibility is relevant for your consideration of comp plan amendments. We talked about that too. And in one of the statutes, it talks about what does that compatibility mean? It means a condition in which land uses or conditions can coexist in relative proximity to each other in a stable fashion over time such that no use or condition is unduly negatively impacted. And that's usually the standard. Um I don't know if that's helpful or not, but that's usually the standard. Robert's rules. I I I think I'm going to end after a brief discussion here. Um, generally speaking, the chair is vested with the authority to run the meetings and it's the chair who implements the rules. Now, we don't have a specific parliamentarian either here or on the city council, but your city attorney normally serves as kind of an advisory parliamentarian. So, if you have questions, you know, um, councelor, I think we need to move on. What's the motion I need? I would say I would tell you what the motion would be and the number of votes that it takes because if you guys want to stop discussion while

someone else still wants to speak, you need a supermajority vote to, you know, end that. Uh because otherwise, you know, you all are appointed for a reason. You trust has been implaced in you. On the city council, these people have votes. I don't have votes. If you're going to stop someone from speaking, you have to have a supermajority normally. Um, normally the way it works is that discussion doesn't begin until there's a motion. That's what Robert's rules says. Robert's rules says you shouldn't have discussion about an item without a motion being made and seconded. Now, what you will also see in Robert's rules is a comment that that's really more of a guideline on small boards. You are a small board. So, no one stands on ceremony about that. You don't have 50 people here trying to that's a requirement for big boards because you have to maintain order some way. Now if you want of course you can adopt that practice but that's up to you. A lot of what you do is legislative in nature. When you talk about amending the comp plan, amending the land development code, and anytime we uh staff or other people want to amend the land development code, it has to come to you for your recommendation. Those are legislative decisions for that. You don't need to necessarily care what the public thinks. You don't need to necessarily care what the evidence is. It's not quasi judicial. It's quasi legislative. Um you can provide evidence. Um, but that's something where your own policy positions are more relevant. No one can stop you from coming on to a board with your prior history and your policy perspectives. You bring those with you. And when you are looking at amending the comp plan or landed development code, that is relevant, but it is not relevant when it comes to quasi judicial matters. So very often when you're amending zoning or talking

about conditional use permits, your decisions are not policybased. They're evidence-based. They're what you find at the hearing. And and that is what is difficult sometimes about traffic studies, for example. It's very rare that you see them. And would it be relevant for your determination? Most people think so. But you're constrained by the evidence that is before you. And so what that means is, you know, either I mean, frankly, has has a developer ever have I ever seen a traffic study from a developer that didn't support what the developer wanted? I haven't. But that's why it's a hearing because if someone's going to oppose it, they're going to have to find a way to either expose something wrong with the traffic study, have their own traffic study. It's that it's those evidentiary guard rails that create the due process system that we have. Um so the point here provide adequate notice consistent with due process. We do um normally have three minutes for members of the public, the chair or by motion. You all can of course grant more time to the person speaking. Evidence will always be presented and those witnesses who come and testify can always be cross-examined. Not just by you. I mean, I'll say this. In the past year, we have had very few, if any, truly contested um hearings here. Like, sometimes you all have questions, but it's very rare that another party comes in and is cross-examining, but you can have that. I think we will have that before long. Frankly, I've been shocked that we haven't had it. Um, so when it happens that there's another party maybe challenging what a developer wants to do on the property, they're going to have the right, if they have standing, to cross-examine the witnesses, and then they also can cross-examine whoever the other side has. We haven't had to deal with that yet. When I gave you the training a year ago, I really thought we would, but we haven't.

Oh, I also me So, you do have to weigh the evidence, right? It's up to you to figure out what the evidence is and make the findings. you know, is this consistent with the comp plan? Um, is this uh good? Um, are the do these conditions make sense? You have to weigh the evidence. Now, evidence also comes from staff. This is something that isn't often understood at city council or excuse me, planning commission meetings. What the staff does tell you is evidence. Um, part of that is that they are subject matter experts, but that's that's part of sometimes all you hear is from staff, right? You'll always at least hear from staff. you wouldn't be able to vote on something if you had no evidence. Um, so that's part of the point of why staff presents it is because they they're providing you the evidence. Uh, you're things can be appealed. You know, if if someone doesn't like the decision that's made, they can do what's called a petition for a certiary. In practice, that's not going to happen to you really. It's they're going to wait for whatever the city council does and then do a petition for a certiary. We've had two of those in the last year. Both failed. Um, let's see. I talked to you last year about Jennings v. Dade County where all evidence relied upon must be admissible. In a quasi judicial hearing, it's not as formal the rules of evidence, right? You actually can have hearsay be admissible in a quasi judicial hearing. You're just not supposed to make final findings based on hearsay, but it could be relevant. The rules are a little relaxed for these types of hearings. Um, if based on personal knowledge, it must be explained. That's that's the only rule here. If you're making a decision um, you know that you think the traffic will harm a neighborhood and all you have is a traffic study that says it won't harm the neighbor, you have to

just explain your reasoning um, behind that. and you always have exarty communication. Now, expparty communication generally is prejuditial. What is exarty communication? It's communication that is made outside of the board meeting. It's someone who calls you up, an applicant who calls you up and says, "I really, really need this. This is going to help me. And here's why. XYZ." Well, you've now just had an exarty communication. It is not illegal. Um, but we do ask that it be disclosed because otherwise it is prejuditial to your determinations. I gave you a couple examples um last year which I I think are really interesting. Um the Judge Hosford video is really interesting because he's a an experienced judge and after a hearing he pulled a prosecutor aside and read him the business basically and told him what he expected of him. The defense attorney wasn't present. You can't do that for a criminal hearing. And then the Young Thug case in Atlanta was even kind of the same thing, but it's all on video. Really entertaining stuff. Um, let's see. I think I'm almost done. Sunshine Law. I know I don't have to talk to y'all about this. The general rule, I'll just tell you a little bit of nuance. If two of you wanted to go to um a meeting, let's say one of the uh DPZ meetings for example, um that's okay. In fact, all of you can go to the meetings. There's no issue with more than one of you showing up somewhere. The issue is when more than one of you speak about the same thing, even if you're not directly speaking to the other, one person's comment could inform the other. It's almost reflexive. Like nothing is illegal about you publishing your positions, okay? But it's illegal to talk without proper notice. Let me give an example. Um if

someone gets up at one of those DPZ meetings and says, "This is what I want to see for the city." Let's say you're all there, okay? And one of you gets up and says, "This is my vision for the city. I want you to integrate it." That's not illegal. Where we get in trouble is if the second of you does it. Okay? Now, I don't want to create like a prisoners dilemma where you all rush to be the first or whatever. You can all talk to them individually without issue. It's unless you're using them as a conduit, right? You can't use a third person as a conduit to relay each other's positions to each other and comments. Does that make sense? Do you have any questions about that, please? So if I go up to that microphone on a city council meeting and I say I'm here to speak on myself and myself only,

right? Not as a commissioner, doesn't matter. It doesn't make a difference. So being on this planning and zoning commission tells me I do not have the right to be a Clammont citizen. No, you haven't violated sunshine. I mean, first of all, let's let's I'm conf I'm really confused now. Yeah, let me start from the beginning. I mean, no, you know, I don't want to Roll the sun. No, I know. I I'll like for example, Jenny always goes to the meetings. David goes to the meetings. All right. Everybody here goes to the PE council meetings.

Now, if we don't agree with something, so if I go up there and say I don't agree with this project, that means I shut down my fellow commissioners. No, even Oh, it doesn't. Okay. No, it depends. Actually, let me let me tell you, it depends. Again, the first person commenting, there's never going to be an issue. So, if you're the first one up, doesn't matter what you talk about. The only issue arises is if there's a matter that the city council is talking about that is likely to come in front of you. Okay? See, most of the time they get stuff after after it's come to you. So, it doesn't it doesn't matter. So, if three or four of you talked, that's why I I'm quiet. I won't say anything.

Um, and of course, the point is al the question's also been made to me. Um, can we talk to members of the city council? Absolutely you can. It's only an intraboard, not an interboard uh prohibition. Any other questions? No problem.

Public records. This is I think the last real big point. Um, if you're texting about business that comes before you, that's a public record. If you email about business that here at PNZ, that's a public record. Uh don't delete it, keep it. Okay? If you if you want to dispose of it somehow, talk to the clerk first. We have a wonderful clerk staff. And um that's it. Thanks.

Yes, I will. Thank you, sir. You're welcome. Good evening, Lenz Commission. How are you tonight? Very good. Thank you for asking. All right. I'm going to try to make this fairly quick. I appreciate you having the meeting fairly quick tonight.

Let's see if I can work this.

Okay, so just for for those who don't know me, I know most of you do. I'm the deputy city manager here. My name is Dan Matthysse. I do and I'm and I'm the reason I'm giving you my short resume is to tell you that I know where you're coming from. I'm I'm a I've got a degree in urban and regional planning. I've got 30 plus years as a professional planner mostly in the public sector, three counties, three cities. I did do a stint in the private sector where I helped plan in celebration and a few other cities or a few other developments around town. I've been a certified planner for oh my gosh, it's 25 years now. I didn't realize it was that long. So, I'm a certified planner through the American Institute of Certified Planning. I've been a board member of the Florida Planning and Zoning Association. I'm a current member of the chap central Florida chapter, been a board member of the Florida American Planning Association. Um, right before I started this job, I was the chairman of the Lake County Planning and Zoning Board. I've also been a Lake County Planning and Zoning Commissioner back way back before I was the chairman and a city commissioner, city PNZ commissioner at the city of OKOE. And I've also been uh the American Planning Association conference section selection committee. So, I helped select sessions for the national conference. I've done that for the past three years. So, I know where you're coming from. I've been a planning and zoning commissioner. I've been a planner, private sector, public sector. I consider myself a 3D planner because I see all sides of it. I see the public side, the private side, and the voting side on it or the recommending side. So, enough about me. Want to talk about the functions of a planning and zoning commissioner. You guys all know this. She's been on the board for a little while. But the PNZ commission, it reviews applications and makes recommendations to council. Just like staff, we only make recommendations. PNZ makes recommendations. Council's going to do with what they want based on our recommendations, their re your

recommendations, and their own thoughts and research. But you're making recommendations basically and Christian talked about this a little bit on the consistency with the comprehensive plan, compliance with the land development regulations and adherence and acceptance with the planning practices and principles. Now understanding the roles you guys I know you know this well you have your planning staff which is responsible for the overall development process. These are your technical experts in the land development code and the comprehensive plan. It's not your job to know the code. It's their job to know the code. It's your job to question them on the code. Same thing with the comprehensive plan. These are the experts and the knowledges of all the rules and regulations. The planning commission are are the appointed residents that are here to look at the residential and the community's perspective of it and they're providing advisory guidance on certain land development cases. But also, you're looking at when you're making your recommendations, you're ensuring certain development applications are consistent with the comp plan and the land development code. Now the city council makes the final decisions on all these land development cases and they take into consideration again your recommendation and staff's recommendations and then they'll adopt the land development uh goals objectives policies in the comp plan in the LDC. So the types of cases Christian did a really good job covering this you're basically you have two different types of cases the legislative and the quasi judicial. the legislative are basically your your comprehensive plan amendments, your LDC text amendments, and your largecale wide citywide uh jurisdictionwide resoning. So resoning on the entire certain zoning district, but most of your cases are quas judicial and those are basically your sight specific zone changes and your conditional uses. Those seem to be the majority of your cases based on my research of the last many agendas that you've had. But in those quasi judicials, you must weigh the facts and determine whether a proposal is

consistent with existing plans and requirements. And your discretion is a little bit limited. As Christian, I'm not going to go over that again because Christian went over it in in great detail. But again, most of your cases in on this board involve quasi judicial. So it it's based on Christian talked about substantial competent evidence. And what that means is it's evidence that's basically someone can personally observe or testimony by an expert who has special knowledge in a relevant topic. The key member characteristics that we find a lot in planning and zoning boards and again I have worked in three cities and three counties and I've worked with a lot of planning and zoning commissions and I've sat on planning and zoning commissions. So, I've worked with a a lot of different characteristics of it. Typically, the officials have the ability to respectfully disagree. It's okay to disagree with each other. It's okay. It's okay to do to disagree with the applicant or staff. Do it respectfully, please. Um, good a good P&Z member is able to leave leave it at the dis. Uh, debates are about policy, not about personality. Please do not attack each other. Please do not attack staff. That's not what you're here for. You're here representing the city. You're here representing the community. Exceptional officials reflect positive decorum and model leadership by having very respectful tone both colleagues, staff, citizens, and applicants. And and you can be really mean to Christian if you want. We're okay with that. Even though he's

Yeah, he deserves it sometimes. We're okay if you're mean to him. But effective commissions also establish a set of behaviors in advance and code of conduct. And there was a code of conduct that has been adopted by council that also affects planning and zoning commission as well. So successful board attributes is is be a sense of team working together. I've seen you do it. Um I'm not saying you're not doing it, but being a being a team and and trying to help the city make and help the city council make make their decisions, but honoring the relationship with staff and each other. You guys have good relationships with each other. You have good relations with staff. That's very important for a successful board. Conducting effective meetings. That's that's where uh Commissioner Colby, that's all your job, buddy. So you But effective meetings are are are very good, effective and efficient.

But the main thing that'll help this board be most successful is come prepared. Read your packets ahead of time. I have no doubt that all of you do that watching the few P&Z meetings that I have. you guys come very prepared and rely on the expertise of your staff. Your staff are trained, educated as planners. They're experienced as planners. They are your experts. So rely on them. Again, you don't it's not your job to know the code. It's your job to question staff on the code and understanding your role as as a planning commissioner versus city staff. But most importantly on this slide is take advantage of staff brief briefings. Staff will always be open to briefings. If any of you want to b have a one-on-one briefing with staff before the meeting, whether it's a few days before, a day after you get your packet, or the day of the meeting, that's a great time to get a lot of your questions answered and get a lot of information out of them that you may be thinking of. And you're not going to get all your questions out because some questions are going to derive from other things that you hear on this on the DAS. But taking advantage of staff briefings, I can't I can't express enough how important these are. In in my career, I've always done staff briefings with our PNZ members and our council, and it just makes for a much more efficient and effective meeting. But when when you're conducting a meeting, again, I keep going back to this evaluating the consistency and compatibility with comprehensive plans and adopted plans. rely on staff, participate, be active listening, ask good questions, uh, voice your opinions, and respect each other and their comments. But working as a team for a common purpose is is always very effective. The highly effective P&Z members is be be informed. Again, read the materials, visit sites, weigh the evidence because a lot of your cases are based on the evidence that's submitted. Utilize your professional planning and

legal staff. You have an incredible planning staff and incredible legal staff here that that are here to help you through these meetings. But also, I really want to emphasize providing good customer experience. All of the applicants here are are your customers. They're here trying to come in for and I'm not saying you have to give them everything they want, but I'm saying give them a good experience. Let let them come out because developers and applicants and even residents talk. They'll talk. if they have a bad experience here, they'll tell other developers, don't come to the city. It's it's not easy to work with. And what you will what will happen if if that reputation becomes becomes a reality is that you're going to get the you're going to get the lesser developers. The good developers have a lot of money to spend. They they want the path of least resistance or the most predictability. That's all developers want is predictability in the process. if they come into a planning and zoning or a council meeting and everything gets turned upside down or they're added a bunch of extra conditions that put a lot of a lot of extra burden on them, they're going to go somewhere else. And maybe you want someone to go somewhere else. But I can tell you, I've worked in communities where previous planning departments, PNZ members, and councils have chased away good developers and it took us years to get the good ones back. and that and and it was done by treating them right. Doesn't mean we give them what they want. It means we treat them right and we give them a good experience. But also remember that you are a role model here. You you are representing the town of Claremont. You're representing the values set forth by the city managers, by the city council. So when you're out in public, be a good steward, be a good role model, speak for the community. Um, you know, it's it's it's never good to for, you know, city staff doesn't go out in the community and bash the city. We we get fired for doing that. Actually, that's against our

policies if we're bashing council members or or city businesses or things like that. People listen, people talk. So, you are role models. You are appointed because council sees sees that you are very vital part of this community. And so, that's all we ask for is just represent the city well and and we'll bring we'll keep the good developers. We'll bring the good developers and keep the good developers. I'm super excited about this comp plan charet coming up and and yes, sharet is actually a common word in the planning industry. U it's a four-day sharet. So, and again, I talked to each of you individually that the ones that are in gray on your sheet are just for the staff in in DPZ only. That's them gathering all the data that they hear from the the public portions of it and putting it all together so they can get to the next step of it. So,

don't crash the grays, crash the other colors. So, those we welcome your input and we welcome that and we welcome you listening to people out in the in the community and and sharing their feedback. if if they're not able to make these cherettes, but these this is going to be one of the best times for you to get everything off your chest about what you want to see in the future of the city. Doesn't mean you're going to get everything you want. Nobody gets everything they want. If so, our comp plan's going to be about this thick if everybody gets what they want. And then no developers will come here because it'll be impossible to develop if everybody gets everything they want. But it it will be um it will be a great process. The DPZ is the best of the best and we're looking forward to I as a professional planner for 30 plus years have never gotten to work with them and I am super excited about it because we read their books in planning school. We we learn about them. Uh they they truly are the best. And so I'm excited. I hope everyone on the P&Z is excited. I know there's a lot of people in the community are very excited because as Christian said, the future of the city is going to change and it's going to change for the better. I'm confident about that. So that's all I have for you tonight. I just wanted to again convey the fact that be be good role models for the community. The uh you represent the city. Some of these applicants, especially the homeowners, you we're a monopoly. They don't have anywhere else to go. if they want to something for their private property, they can't just say, "Well, I don't like the way you treated us, so we're going to go to another city." They can't. They own property here. They have to come here. That's we see that a lot with building permits. But with with uh resoning, it's the same thing. Give them a good experience. Even if you have to say no, give them a good experience. Don't beat up on applicants. Please don't beat up on staff. Please don't beat up on books up for Christian, but it's um it's just

providing a good experience and being professional. So any any questions for Christian or I? Yes sir. Just a quick question on your Yes sir. Thursday meeting from 10 to 11:30 across the board Thursday and then underneath it goes from 10 to meet that open

I I don't actually have it in front of me right now. Nathan, do you So Nathan is is Have you all met Nathan?

11:30 is Yeah. What is open studio? Open studio. Hello. I didn't bring my glasses, but I've got I've got these. I got the same problem. All right. So, you're talking about what is an open studio? Open studio. By the way, you're supposed to say your name and your address like everybody. Nathan Norris, 345 West Manola Avenue. She wants to be chairperson now. That's sorry.

Open studio means you're welcome to come in. Okay. So, this is where they're all going to be. It's not just DPZ's team. It's all their subconultants. These are very talented folks. Um, I encourage you to take advantage of the open studio. So that's when you want to come, you know, talk, you'll want to talk about trees, right? Let's let's talk about trees. Um and and so I think that's a great thing. Each of these meetings that are from 10 to 11:30, okay, these are typically associated with some of the the subconultants are going to come in and give a presentation and then answer questions. These are the sorts of meetings especially um well you all have your different interests but as an example on Saturday uh from uh 10 to 11:30 that's actually going to be for uh people who are interested in what the market sort of desires they're going to be talking about economic development in general but stuff like that but in the afternoon I was going to suggest the fiscal productivity is going to include a guy by the name of Joe Makoszi and he talks about the return on investment uh for the types of development we get to the city. He talks about fiscal responsibility. There's some types of development that produce great wealth for the city and there's other types that doesn't. Um but he's going to be one of the more interesting people that's going to be here. We're going to also have uh some some other folks at these other things, but that that's an opportunity to come in and meet. The gray areas are when they really want to get work done, so that's not the time to talk to them. So that's why they're grayed out. And then the opening presentations and the work in progress presentation, the closing presentation, that's where we really want to see u a lot of people that you may know who really care about the community. So if you have a social media presence, that would be something to get people out because what we don't want is people say, "Well, I never heard about it and you know, nobody listens to me." This is their opportunity to be listened to. I will give you a quick preview. the opening presentation um on that uh

Thursday evening from 5:30 to 7:00 across the street is going to be about all the work that they've done to date. So they've been analyzing Claremont for a couple of months now. Okay? And so they're going to say this is this is what we're seeing. This is what we want. Um they would absolutely love to hear from you by the way um um about your your concerns. As uh Dan mentioned before, the work in progress is to say, "Hey, we're going to just put up the work that we've done." A lot of the work they do that makes them really special is they graphically represent ideas. So, they just don't say, "Oh, we're going to change the zoning area." They will show illustrations of how it works. As an example, we we already know some of the the types of places that they're going to focus on. As we've talked about before, traffic is a big issue. All right? So, one of the ways to reduce traffic is to try to prevent it from having to go on 50 or 27. And the way we can do that is we can try to transform uh uh places that are right next to 50 and 27 that prevent people from having to get on 50 or 27 because what they need is there. And those places are oftentimes what we associate with places where you hang out or where you uh you know linger uh and not just shop, but it's the place you want to be. Um so so we'll be looking at at different areas. We'll also be um looking at um there there's been work along 50 about how to connect the north and south. That's something that we'll be looking at. I know we'll be looking at Lincoln Park and ways about, you know, showing about how the future might work there. We've got we'll be looking at the the area uh and Wellness Way. There's one one large site there that I know that they're going to focus on. So these are some of the examples. So there's going to be a lot of those, but if you're interested in how these ideas

translate to physical design, um that's where their expertise is. So if you if you know and as an example, I remember uh talking this week with the team about the tree issue because we've got the new landscape code, right? Well, if you're a typical developer, you're a normal citizen, you see the landscape code, how many different trees do they recommend? like more than I can even fathom making an intelligent decision. So, one of the things that they're tasked with is, well, what would be sort of the default setting in these particular conditions? What if I'm in just a regular neighborhood area? What should we be looking at? If I'm in a more commercial main street area, what should we be looking at? And so, um, that's an opportunity for us to make it easier for the the development community as you're talking about. you know, if they don't want to do what our vision is, then they can go somewhere else. But otherwise, we should make it easy for people to come in and do what you're concerned about.

And so, how h how do we make that simple that can be put in this comprehensive plan? Any questions? Yeah. At the risk of being in a n Let me add real quick. All of these are going to be advertised. So, you can speak you can speak all Okay. So, they will be advertised. Go ahead. All my question was if you look at Thursday, Friday, Saturday under open studio, it says from 10 to noon, but it's in an 11:30 to 12 noon slot. So my question is, are there two concurrent meetings going on?

Okay, thank you for clarifying that. That means you're what they're going to be doing is they're going to have meetings in here where somebody's going to be presenting, but you're still at the same time allowed to come in and talk to the other people because a lot of people are still going to be working. That's part of the shre. The shre means a small cart. If you if you don't know, it's a French term. And they used to the professors would come and and take all the work um that the students had at the end of the semester. But the students would still be working when they put the their their their uh their project in the cart. So, they jump in the cart and keep working. So, they're going to keep working while they've got somebody talking about transportation and you're allowed to come in so long as you're not too loud. You got to keep the voice down and and talk to them while the other meeting is going on. So, they want you to that's when they want your input. All right. Any other Okay. It's going to be fun. And I'll I'll The other thing that's happening is we will be having some uh meetings throughout the community. They're going to be uh taking place starting I think it's next Thursday maybe or next Wednesday. It's going to go for on for about six days, maybe about uh seven or eight meetings. And I'll be pushing that out um to y'all uh tomorrow so that if you have people who say, "Hey, I want to know more about the comprehensive plan before they get here or I want my voice to be heard." I'm going to be asking questions that will then be the answers they give us will be then taken to DPZ before they get here and I'll brief them on on what we've heard. So, um if people want to be heard before they get here, that's great. Love to love to do that. Any other questions?

Great. Thanks.

Anything else, Christian? No, sir. All right. Well, thank you for the great presentation. Um, the last thing on our agenda is reports. So, we will start with Mr.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, on January 15th, I had the good fortune to attend the Lake County comprehensive plan update. Um, nice presentation, 100,000 foot view, not a whole lot of answers to be perfectly honest with you. One of the things that stuck out um to some folks dismay uh in the in the audience was that 1549 survey responses came back mostly from students. Uh so their concerns ranked with conservation, parks, nature, trails, uh and keeping Lake County rural. U there were a couple of folks in the audience that were just like, you know, you kind of needed to talk to us, you know, people that own homes and pay bills. So, something got in the back of my head and I sent to this Claremont City Council and the Lake County Commissioners five uh peer-reviewed scholarly articles where studies were done that the more trees that we have equals more mental rest. and focus for people. So in Europe it's known as the 3-30-300 rule. So what is that? The 3-30-300 rule is basically that from any window of your house, you should be able to see three trees. You should live in a neighborhood with at least 30% canopy trees. And a canopy tree is at least 60 foot high. You should be within 300 mters, which is

approximately 1,000 ft of a small park or a small forest. And studies have shown that uh the the Barcelona Institute of Global Health proved this rule through a study with more than 3,000 people aged 15 to 47. Um, so really interesting that the more trees we keep and we bundle the trees, they create like this ah moment for us. So I sent them a synopsis of those scholarly articles and just some suggestions. Additionally, um, I always default back to my contacts at the Department of Transportation. These are absolutely incredible people. Um, they have a site for proven safety countermeasures when it comes to pedestrians and cyclists. I had a conversation with their grant coordinator. Uh, she put me onto a website which I passed on to city council. There may actually be grants available for us to make upgrades for bike lanes, uh, crossing areas and so on and so forth. Additionally, uh Florida DOT has a complete streets initiative. And a complete streets initiative is one that is designed for all users of all ages, including bicyclists, pedestrians, transit vehicles, freight handlers, and motorists. So, our District 5 coordinator, Mr. James L. Rodriguez, who I had another awesome conversation with, was basically, listen, anything that comes along and an impact the state road, I'm here to help you. We'll do a three mile radius of that project, see how it impacts you and the state. He's more

than happy to talk to anybody to give additional information and clarification. Again, all of this sent to the city of Claremont, the and Lake County. Uh, in hindsight, Lake County is looking into the pending Lake Yale development, which is somewhere between 1,400 and 1,600 new homes, which equates to almost 6,000 vehicles on the one lane in, one lane out CR452. So, my timing couldn't have been more than perfect for them to initiate stuff like this so we could get the developer to pay for the upgrades to roads. Thank you, Mr.

Thank you, Commissioner May. I have no reports. Thank you, Commissioner Vinnie. I'd just like to thank staff for uh a heeding to my long request on a larger conceptional plan. I had it both of them at home and I didn't have mine with mine. So when I had a question, I was a little curious where it went. Thank you to the staff. That's the end of my reports. Commissioner Kramer, I have no report out at this time. Thank you, Commissioner Hoisington. No report, sir.

All right. And I would just like to uh to thank our council for the great presentation. and we really appreciate your support and and being here every week to uh to support all the questions that we have. So, uh with that uh any other business? Do I have a motion to adjurnn? I will make a motion to adjurnn. And a second. Second. I'll second. All right. Meeting adjourned.