Community Development Board - Regular Meeting

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Good afternoon. This meeting of the Community Development Board is called to order on August 20th. Welcome, everyone. Would everybody please join me? Can you hear me now? There we go. I'll say that again. The meeting of the Community Development Board is called to order on August 20th. Welcome, everyone. Please join me in your eyes for the invocation followed by the Pledge of Allegiance. I'll be giving the invocation today. O Lord, our God, heavenly King and Comforter, we come before you this afternoon with gratitude for the community we serve. We lift up our prayers for our nation, our city, and for all those who hold positions of civil authority. We ask you to grant this board and those who have come to participate with us today the spirit of wisdom, discernment, and integrity. Direct their thoughts and actions so that every decision made here be just, righteous, and profitable for all citizens. God is to seek the common good, to maintain harmony, and to live a calm and peaceful life, all in dignity. Clear our minds of distraction, deliver us from divisiveness, and grant us the strength to govern righteously. May our efforts promote peace, safety, and prosperity for everyone who lives and works in this city. To you we ascribe glory, thanksgiving, now and forever. Amen. Join me in a pledge. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, This board consists of seven members and one alternate who are appointed by the city council and serve voluntarily. I am Michael Budskis and I will ask the other members of the staff to introduce themselves beginning on my left.

Over and out of the boards.

Jennifer Cowan with Bryant Miller Olive, your legal counsel.

Rosemary Call, city clerk.

Matthew Midge, assistant city attorney.

Raymond Rush, Public Works Transportation.

Ted Kozak, Planning and Development.

Austin Dole, Planning and Development.

Lauren Matzke, Planning and Development.

Diane Aginelli.

Luis Serna.

Michelle Chenault.

Andrew Hupp. Please remember to turn off your cell phones so they do not become a distraction during the meeting. Please also refrain from having conversations in this room so we might hear all the testimony given today. To ensure a complete record of this board's actions, we ask that each individual wishing to speak, including the applicant, speak into the microphone at the podium in front of us. Clearly state your name and spell your last name for the clerk. And I will ask all those in attendance today who plan to speak to please rise and be sworn in by the clerk. Thank you. Agendas of today's meeting are on the podium to your left near the entry door. Also on this podium are a roster of the Community Development Board, the list of city staff experts, their resumes, the board's rules of procedure, and the annual schedule of this board. Our first order of business is to review and approve minutes from last month's meeting. May I have a motion for approval of the minutes? Do I second?

Second.

Motion made and seconded. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion carries. Next item on our agenda is for items that are not on the agenda. If there's anybody here today wishing to address this board concerning any matter that does not appear on today's agenda, please identify yourselves. Seeing none, we will move on. This board has adopted a consent agenda format, and the consent items are identified as such on the agenda. Consent agenda items are those items for which the Planning and Development Department recommends approval, and the applicant is in agreement with any proposed conditions. Please note that written comments of the case that have been received to date do not result in an item being removed from the consent agenda. Items may be removed from the consent agenda today by a member of the board, a member of the staff, or any person in the audience for questions or objections. I will read each item on the consent agenda and if any person wishes to remove this item from the consent agenda, please so state or raise your hand and we'll remove it from the consent agenda. Items removed from the consent agenda will be heard in the regular order of the meeting. Items that remain on the consent agenda will be approved with a single vote as to each type of hearing. Does any board member wish to disclose any ex parte communications on any level two applications that are on today's consent agenda? I did forward a voicemail communication I received that I did not respond to, that's part of the record. All right, so today's consent agenda items are as follows. FLD2009-02002B, flexible development approval for a medical clinic radiology building in the institutional district as a comprehensive infill redevelopment project for the property located at 2650 Landmark Drive. Does anybody wish to have this matter removed from the consent agenda? That will remain. Next item is FLD2026-02005, flexible development approval for a limited vehicle service car wash in a commercial district as a comprehensive infill redevelopment project for the properties located at 407 South Saturn Avenue. Does anybody wish to have this matter removed from the consent agenda? This item will be removed from the consent agenda. Next item is FLD2026-03007, Flexible Development Accrual for a Storage, Warehouse, and Distribution Facility in the Institutional District as a Comprehensive Infill Redevelopment Project for the property at 706 North Missouri Avenue. Does anybody wish to have this item removed from the consent agenda? Seeing none, items one and three of those as of today would remain. Can I have a motion for those two items?

I move to approve case number FLD200902002B, and case number FLD202603007, based on the evidence and testimony presented in the application, the staff report, and at today's hearing, and hereby adopt the findings of fact and conclusion of law stated in the staff report with conditions of approval as listed.

Do I have a second?

Second.

Motion made and second. Any discussion on the motion? Seeing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion carries. Those two items have been approved through the consent agenda process. Continuing on now with our case of one matter remains, which is a level two case. All level two cases, such as a flexible development, are considered quadraditional hearings. In a quadraditional hearing, the Community Development Board reviews the application, the staff report, correspondence, and all evidence presented today, and makes a final decision subject to appeal. This board has previously qualified all the city staff who will testify as experts in their area of professional training, education, and experience. The list of city staff experts and their resumes are on the handbook on the podium near the entry door. Any other professionals who desire to be qualified as an expert witness shall so request the beginning of the case and present a resume to each board member. The board shall determine whether or not to qualify the person as an expert and in what field of study. At the beginning of each level two case, I will also ask for anyone who wishes to request party status to come forward and state your reasons. Party status may be granted if the person requesting such status demonstrates that he or she is a substantially affected person. The board will then determine whether or not to grant party status, then the case will proceed as follows. First, requests for party status. Second, presentation of planning and development staff. Third, presentation by the applicant. Both of those are 10 minutes each. And then presentation by persons with party status, which is five minutes per party maximum. Cross-examination of witnesses by planning and development staff. Cross-examination of witnesses by applicant. And cross-examination of witnesses by persons with party status. Then comments by the public, limited to three minutes per person. And then closing remarks by the planning and development staff. closing remarks by the person's granted party status, and closing remarks by the applicant. Each will have up to three minutes. Then we have the closing of the public hearing, and this board will have discussion and vote. Our first level two case today is FLD2026-02005. I've already asked many more since closing the ex parte communications. I'll just ask again just to make sure we didn't miss anything. Seeing none, is there anyone in the audience who wishes to request party status on this case? We have three people. Please, one at a time, please approach the microphone and state your name and your basis for requesting party status.

Hi. My name is Carolyn Rodi, and I live at 304 South Mars Avenue, which is directly Caddy Corner adjacent to the property that we're discussing.

Can you spell your last name for the floor?

A-R-O-T-E.

Does anybody want to make a motion to grant party status?

Second. Motion made and seconded. Any discussion? All in favor? Aye. Thank you. Thank you. Who else wished? I think there were three people total.

Good afternoon. My name is Lisa Caterino. I live at 306 South Mars Avenue. My home shares a corner with the church property, and my bedroom is about 130 feet from the proposed outdoor vacuum area. So I feel I am significantly impacted by this project.

Anybody wish to move to grant party status?

I make a motion to grant her party status.

Second? Second. Motion. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? We'll be granted party status. Have a seat. Ma'am? Good afternoon.

My name is Charlene Welsh, W-E-L-S-H. I rent and reside at 312 South Myers Avenue, immediately adjacent to the proposed development. And because of that proximity, I will be affected substantially more than the general public.

Anybody wish to move grantor party status?

I move to grant Ms. Welch party status.

Second. Motion made and seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion carries. Thank you.

Board members, before the next individual comes up to the podium, can we make sure that all your mics are on, please?

Okay.

It looks like several of your mics are off, so if you can press them to turn on. I think Louis is on now.

There we go. Okay.

Thank you. All right. Continuing on then. One more? Sorry, I didn't see you, sir. Please go ahead. Didn't mean to do that to you.

You're okay. My name is Daniel Jeffery. It's J-E-F-F-E-R-Y. I am a property owner at 300 South Saturn Ave, which is immediately across the street from the proposed site. And I am the chairman of Metro Foundation, which is a nonprofit company that we run out of that building.

May I wish to move the grant project status?

I would like to grant Mr. Welsh party status. Second.

Motion made and seconded. Did you say your last name again, Wes?

Jeffrey. Jeffrey. Jeffrey, I'm sorry.

I just wanted to make sure it was clear so we went to the next step afterwards. All right, thank you. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. Anybody else? One more person. Okay.

Hi. My name is Fred Jeffrey, J-E-F-F-E-R-Y. I'm also at 300 South Saturn Avenue on the corner, co-owner of the building. But one thing we did was walk around the whole neighborhood and surveyed everybody. So I would like to state that appropriate time.

Two people from the same address, co-owners? Your thoughts on that, council?

Are they?

Do you reside at that same address?

Your microphone's not on.

Do you reside at the same address?

I do not reside there.

Okay.

I'm co-owner of the building, and I work there. Oh, co-owner of the building.

So like a commercial property?

Yes.

Okay. Does anybody wish to move the grant party status to Mr. Jeffrey?

I move to grant Mr. Jeffrey, I knew I had that right the first time, party status. Second.

All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Anybody else wish to seek party status? Got one more coming up.

How you doing? My name is Afran Sirianni and I own Sunshine College on 1175 Court Street and 1430 South Missouri Avenue. We're going to be impacted financial, so I wanted to come up here.

Did you receive formal notice of the hearing today due to your proximity to the site or just how did you find about today's case? Yeah, I got a formal notice. Can you spell your name for the record, please?

A-F-R-A-M. Last name is S-E-R-I-A-N-I. Okay.

Thank you. Anybody wish to grant Mr. Ceriani party status?

I wish to grant Mr. Ceriano party status. I second.

Motion made and seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion carries. Okay. All right. Anybody else before I move on to starting the process? Okay. The Board has granted party status to Ms. Arrote, Ms. Cattarino, Ms. Welsh, Mr. Jeffrey, Mr. Jeffrey, and Mr. Ceriani. This entitles the attendees additional rights. You can personally testify. You can present evidence by documentary submittal. You can present witnesses. You can conduct cross-examination. You can present argument, and you have the right to appeal a decision of the Board. So we will now proceed with this matter. Staff wish to proceed.

Mr. Chair, the city's got two witnesses today, experts. First, I would ask that the board accept Ms. Austin Dole as an expert witness in general planning, zoning, redevelopment planning, lane development code and lane development code amendments, special area plans in overlaid districts, site plan review, landscape architecture, historic preservation, and all other matters she is about to testify here on.

Do I have a motion to accept Ms. Dole as expert?

i motion to accept this dole as a witness expert second oh sorry sorry motion made and seconded all in favor say aye aye all opposed motion carries and your second expert uh that would be mr raymond dresch he's an expert witness in mechanical engineering transportation management planning right-of-way and construction permitting florida licensed engineering intern He's a retired Army master planning and construction management engineer, and any other matters he's going to testify, you're on today.

Can you spell his last name?

Dresh, D-R-E-S-H. Okay, great.

Do I have a motion to accept Mr. Dresh?

I have a question. What other matters is he an expert in that you mentioned?

Well, we'll have to see if there's anything else he wants to testify on here today. I don't anticipate there being any further types of specialties that he's going to speak on, but I'd just like to do a catch-all at the end just in case there are things that might be covered that he's had experience and expertise in that isn't necessarily listed right here. And if something like that comes up, I will certainly make you aware of it.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Do I have a motion to accept him as a witness? Expert witness, I'm sorry.

I make a motion to accept Mr. Drush as an expert witness.

Do I have a second? Second. Motion made and second. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? All right. Do any of the parties that are here today, either those seeking party status, have any expert witnesses they want to qualify? You're the applicant. Do you have an expert witness you want to qualify? Myself. Yourself? Please come forward.

I've got copies of, hard copies of this as well as my presentation that I'll hand out to staff.

Right now we just need to qualify you as an expert based on your qualifications.

That's my CV. I've got 30 years of land planning experience. I'm an AICP certified land planner since 1999. I have 21 years of experience in private sector land development, general planning, comprehensive planning, and land use matters.

Just for the record, I want to jump in and state your name first. Oh, I'm sorry. That would be helpful.

I'm Peter Pensa.

Peter Pensa. Thank you, Mr. Pensa.

Business address is 4303 Eisenhower Boulevard, Tampa. And like I said, I'm the agent for the applicant. In addition to over two decades of private sector land planning experience, I have over a decade of government land planning experience as well.

Does anybody wish to move to accept Mr. Pensa as an expert?

I move to accept Mr. Pensa as an expert witness. Do we have a second?

Second. Motion made and seconded. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. Anybody else need to be qualified as an expert before we begin? The rest of the process goes smoothly. All right. Thank you. Ms. Dole, please proceed.

Hi, Council. How is everyone doing today?

Just because we have so many people here, would you mind, and this goes for everyone, when you start to speak, can you just identify that you have been sworn in case we missed anyone? Thank you.

I'm Austin Dole. I'm a member of planning and development staff, and I have been sworn in. And I just want to make sure presentation is up and available.

Great.

This is case number FFD-2026-02-005 for the property located at 407 South Saturn Avenue. The property contains three parcels, zoned commercial with commercial general future land use. Surrounding properties are also zoned commercial as well as a little bit of high density residential. There are commercial uses adjacent as well as attached and detached dwellings to the north as well. The current site is home to St. Paul's Lutheran Church. And the applicant is coming in to have limited vehicle service as a comprehensive infill redevelopment project for car wash. Here is the site plan. I know it's oriented slightly differently than the prior slide. You'll see the north arrow. And to the south, Gulf to Bay. To the east is Mars Avenue, and to the west is Saturn Avenue. The proposal is for Woody's Wash Shack to come in and develop a car wash on the site. Their plan would be to combine the three parcels and then re-subdivide them into two. So on the western parcel, that would contain Woody's, and then on the eastern parcel, that would remain vacant for future commercial development. Here's a slightly more detailed... orientation of the site plan. Cars would be entering and exiting off of Mars Avenue and South Saturn Avenue. They would enter the car wash from the north, but the actual car wash building is located closer to Gulf to Bay. They would then be pushed towards the eastern side of the property where there are 24 self-service vacuum stations. Along the southern property, there is a proposed screen so that that is shielded from Gulf to Bay as cars are exiting the wash tunnel to the north. There is a ten foot wide setback landscape buffer and a six foot tall fence to add to act as screening, buffering and noise mitigation to properties for properties to the north. A traffic study has been submitted by the applicant And staff, Raymond Dresch, has been well-versed on the study if council has any specific questions as far as traffic to impact, et cetera. The vacuum stations have also been placed closer to the south of the property to also help with sound mitigation as well. The applicant, as requested from staff, has also submitted a sound study for the property that details the mitigation techniques put in place to help minimize any noise pollution to surrounding properties. This sound study takes into account the combined noise for six vehicles idling at pay stations, the car wash tunnel, two vacuum equipment enclosures, and all 24 self-service vacuum stations. So the analysis was run to assume and account for worst case scenarios. And as part of our conditions of approval, staff has required that the sound mitigation technology must be implemented into the car wash facility. Hours of operation are Monday through Saturday, 7.30 a.m. to 7.30 p.m. Sunday, 8.30 a.m. to 7.30 p.m. here is the applicant's landscape plan they have added robust landscaping around the perimeter of the property for aesthetics and screening and then have also landscaped the interior of the property as well the following sides are elevations The top is east elevation from Mars and bottom is west from Saturn. The applicant is proposing a max height of 32.6 feet. Staff based off of comprehensive infill design standards found this to be in line with surrounding character of the property. And given that the Lutheran church is also approximately two stories in height, we felt that this would be in line with what was previously or currently, but to be demolished on the site. And we actually view this more as a single story because the tower parapet is more of an architectural detail. And it falls within what is permissible within the comprehensive infill standards. This is the south elevation from Gulf to Bay. So you can see what that screen would look like if you were looking at the car wash tunnel from Gulf to Bay and then what it looks like without it. And then this would be the northern entrance as you're entering into the wash tunnel. So based off of land development code and the comprehensive plan, staff recommends approval for the proposed car wash at 407 South Southern Avenue. Does Council have any questions?

What's the variance for the height?

So comp infill doesn't have a max limit on height. So typically for limited vehicle service, maximum height is 25 feet. But since this is coming in as comp infill, there is more leeway with what we're permitted to allow for in height.

And the second question I have, so I did the AAA on Gulf to Bay a long time ago. And I had to go in front of city council because the tunnel can't face the road. Didn't you pass an ordinance or a zoning criteria for this where the tunnel had to be parallel to the main road? Has that changed?

I'll need to pull up the code, but there were, excuse me. throughout my water today. There were some code amendments a few years ago related to the tunnel location, and that was reviewed by staff through this application, so.

What does that mean?

I mean, I'll need to pull up the code to give you exactly what the code requires, unless, Ted, do you have it handy?

I can pull it up, but the criteria for the limited vehicle service has been all met, so we can pull it up right now as we continue to talk.

Yeah, for some reason I thought that you couldn't have the bays facing the road with that new ordinance. And I'm just wondering if it's changed at this time. Because I know that was a big thing several years ago.

You said you went in front of council for that?

I did.

What year was that? Do you know? Don't date me. Well, just usually these type of approvals, as you know, go to the community development board. So I'm wondering if maybe that's what it was.

It was like five years ago, probably, six.

That project was a little bit different. I don't remember if that was an appeal because of something, which is why it went to council. But that was a different application, a different project.

So yeah.

If staff could look up that code section to address Mr. Ushman. Yeah, I think it's relevant.

Because I remember the car wash discussion. relative to, I was on the board when that was changed as well, where it had to be parallel to the road. Did we miss that, or am I missing that?

He's taking a look right now.

He's looking for that right now. In the meantime, the elevations that you showed, the one that showed the east elevation for Mars Avenue, That's as it would be right now after this site is demoed, but the property between Mars Avenue and that's still going to be for future development, correct? Correct. So that would be the current elevation, but it might change because...

Correct, with future development. And we've had a couple of inquiries about development on that project, or on that site, but nothing definitive, just people asking basic zoning questions.

But that would ultimately change as far as the street view from Mars?

Correct.

Do you know how long this has been zoned commercially?

I would have to go verify when the corridor.

Two years.

Correct. Lauren, sorry. Lauren Matzke, Planning and Development. I was sworn in. So that goes for the other. It was rezoned in 2024, July 16th, 2024. the city council approved the rezoning from institutional to commercial as well as the companion future land use map amendment. That was because churches, places of worship are typically zoned institutional, but the area surrounding it all, you know, abutting properties are zoned commercial, which is why it was supported.

Okay, that's what I was going to ask. So those properties that are surrounded it, how long have they been commercial? Do you have any idea?

I did not go back in time. Typically, approximately 300 feet, give or take, north and south of Gulf to Bay has been zoned commercial for a very long time.

Would you say it's longer than the residence?

I don't know.

Or as long as the residence, you should say.

I don't know.

But the power line.

Mr. Hodgkin. Yeah, your microphone is...

We're driving our technology engineers crazy today. Sorry.

I was going to say, the bottom line is what's before you is compatible with the underlying commercial zoning districts. So I think that's what's truly important here.

Does anybody have any other questions of staff?

I do have the code. I'm just flipping because of the way we organize it. No, I wasn't going to move on. I would wait for that.

Actually, I didn't know if there were other questions we could address.

The alphabetical issue with the code book always gets me.

Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with what I had to go through and what was approved down the street. the other matters that I've been involved with on Gulf to Bay. So I'm just wondering if you guys know what the code says or we're missing it at this time.

So under the Flexible Development for Limited Vehicle Services, so this would be just for the full record, Section 2-704, and then we're under I. Number six says tunnels associated with car washes shall be located parallel to the abutting street.

So I'm correct. To the abutting street, but there's two streets here. There's three streets. Actually, three. There's three, but there's going to be a parcel.

This was all proven by Gulf to Bay, not by an abutting street. So your interpretation is?

She just read the code. I mean, it's up to us to interpret it. She read the code. Okay. There's three streets.

Can you read that one more time?

Can you read that again, please?

Yes. Criterion number six, flexibility criterion number six states that tunnels associated with car washes shall be located parallel to the abutting street. That being said, that's for if it was coming through as a vehicle. sorry, limited vehicle service use. What's before you is a comprehensive infill redevelopment project. Those are officially two different uses in our code. So, you know, that is part of their request is, you know, would be I mean, they don't have to request that they're requesting flexibility to have the use and the setbacks or height.

Okay. so going back to you guys implemented that restriction correct it was a few years ago regarding when that particular code provision was modified and i don't recall what it was prior to okay well i think that we should go back as a city and revisit that all along the Gulf to Bay corridor, because it's a lot of auto service, if you will, car dealerships, et cetera. And it was mandated on a lot of people, including myself, that that was a specific requirement. I had to do a special redesign of my entire structure because of it. and it seems at this time it's not a requirement, which I think is great. I think it was ridiculous the way it was written prior, so I would offer the staff to revisit that for the Gulf to Bay corridor.

Chair Greg Musil? I think for today's purposes, though, I would like some input from staff on that same topic of how a budding street is defined. Is it defined by the street that the entrance comes in off of? Because it's on the corner here. So you've got front. It's defined by how much frontage there is. Is there a definition of that that would be instructive to us when we deliberate and vote?

What I was going to say is it might be one of those terms that doesn't necessarily have a definition. If it would, it would be under the definition section of our community development code. But absent that, since that section is a little bit gray in exactly what it means, we're in kind of a unique situation with three streets here, with the access actually being provided from the street that's at the top, Mars Avenue, and the street below, Saturn Avenue, which the car wash is parallel to. I would leave it up to the community development coordinator, who is the interpreter of our code, and she's able to make interpretations of it in situations where things are a little bit gray. So I would say that's one of those situations here, and she's taking a look at this. Not only that, she's also made the point that this is a comprehensive infill application, which is a separate use from your typical car wash type use. Is it a comprehensive infill application to do a limited vehicle service type use? Yes. It can be a little confusing, but the actual use is going to be comprehensive infill here. So there's a very compelling argument that that code section doesn't even apply even if what I previously told you at the beginning of my statement was correct. So there's a couple different ways that you can take a look at this, but ultimately I would defer to her and her judgment and her staff. They take a look at these issues very carefully all the time.

I can and would be happy to read the definition from the code for abutting property if you'd like. So an abutting property means property which is contiguous to the parcel proposed for development or contiguous to property which is owned by the applicant and or an affiliated entity of the applicant which is contiguous to the parcel proposed for development.

So the definition, and I caught that because I was looking at the definition before. Definitions are special. I caught that, and it's interesting because from my perspective, we'll deliberate afterwards in terms of abutting, but it could be either one of the streets, either one of the three. While one of them is not going to be directly abutting in the future, whether it just be the access off Mars, you still have two streets that are abutting. That's the definition. We'll leave it at that. We'll have our discussion afterwards after deliberations. Does anybody have any other questions for staff before we move on to the applicant's presentation?

Chair, could you just clarify for me, if this is, as you're saying, then the abutment would be to Saturn and not to Gulf to Bay be parallel to that? Is that what it's saying, has to be parallel to Saturn? Parallel to Saturn. Okay.

Which it is. Sorry, I... I will clarify, it abuts all three because to Mr. Huff's point and to Mr. Boutsekis' point, it's got three fronts per our code and one side set back the way it's designed. So yes, it does abut it. But that's where changing the request because it's not for a vehicle, limited vehicle service use it's for comprehensive and fill redevelopment use and that provision that criterion does not apply through comprehensive infill redevelopment use we look at a variety of other standards related to the design and the potential impacts to the abutting properties and surrounding neighborhood, the character, et cetera.

If it were an application, but it's a comprehensive application if we don't look at the abutment?

We don't look at the same criteria. We review the criteria and how it meets those. specific to comprehensive infill redevelopment, but then also the general applicability criteria that are in Article 3, which apply to all applications. So there's a lot of language in there that talks about the consistency with the neighborhood and impacts to the neighborhood, impacts to value, et cetera, which were addressed in the staff report, so those were the criteria that the code assigns to us to review against. I understand the point, and if there had been, if they had requested that particular use, we would be addressing those particular criteria. Our code is unique in some of the ways that it allows applicants to request flexibility or other projects are designed.

Thank you for clarifying that. I'm sorry.

Mr. Hoppe, I was in the department at the time that the AAA site was done. I remember it being discussed at staff reports, but I know nothing specific about it because I was in a different lane at that time. It seems like it was a very long time ago, but I don't know. I think yesterday was a long time ago sometimes.

Thank you. Does anybody have any questions for staff before I move on to the applicant's presentation? Seeing none, if we have more questions, we'll get it on cross-examination. Thank you. Does the applicant wish to make a presentation?

And just as you begin, can you confirm you have been sworn in?

Good afternoon. Again, for the record, my name is Peter Pensov, an ACP-certified planner, business address 4304 Eisenhower Boulevard, C-350 Campus, and I have been sworn in. I passed out a copy of the presentation. I'll put it on the overhead as well. Staff did a pretty comprehensive description of the project, so I'll try not to replicate that and address some of the other matters more at hand. We'd like to start by reiterating that the Gulf of Bay corridor from U.S. 19 to downtown is essentially all commercial. There's only a few exceptions to that, one being Clearwater High School, the other being three mobile home parks. I have residential categories associated with them. In addition, the block that we're on is commercial from the site north to Rainbow Drive. So that entire city block is commercially zoned, even though a portion of it is residentially occupied. We provided a detailed response to the city's review criteria, both the general criteria The vehicular use or vehicular service criteria that you were discussing earlier was whether it applied or not. We did show in our findings that we do meet those criteria, plus we also show that we meet the comprehensive infill criteria, so we feel that we meet all that criteria. That documentation is part of the file, so I'm not going to go through it in detail, but this document here is where my detailed findings are on that, and that is part of the record. I'm going to put up a kind of rapid fire a few slides. I'm not going to go into detail because I want to stick to the technical items. But Woody's is a locally owned and operated car wash. They're in the Tampa Bay. They pride themselves in making a difference in the community both for the residents as well as providing employment opportunities and opportunities for growth of staff into management positions over time. They've been in operation for six plus years. They've won numerous awards. They're family owned and operated and they have over 85,000 active members. Again, I'm not going to go through this, but it's in your file. They have a very detailed process for how they train their staff to operate the facility, to keep things orderly. They do community outreach. They are involved in a number of nonprofits. They're the highest ranked operator in the area that shows their rankings for how well their service is to the community. Again, they provide for management opportunities and training opportunities for all their staff. and building leadership. And again, they have a lot of community focus. And they have great pride in the appearance of their facilities, the cleanliness, the operation of it, avoiding loitering, and so on. So with that, now we'll get into the actual me to the presentation, which you all want to hear. As was already discussed by staff, we are a level two FLD permitted use, and we've applied, we've shown that we meet that criteria. We are asking for a seven and a half foot height increase in order to provide for the architectural features so that it's not just a rectangular box. We provide for architectural interest. This is a site on Gandy Boulevard, Tampa, that's substantially similar. We did, as Mr. Huff pointed out, in order to address the orientation question, we did, but we did customize rather the architect customized the uh the building providing for an architectural screen wall and i'll get into that in more detail but that's to uh one do since we have the unique situation of three road frontages that addresses not having a bay door to gulf to bay even though we feel that we meet the criteria by having the primary frontage on saturn If we were to orient it otherwise on the site, it would actually have a detrimental impact as far as sound generation, and I'll show that when I get to that part of the presentation. You've seen the architectural, so I won't go into that. This is the overall site layout also showing the use that's being completed on the property next door for context. Woody's will be building their property, the master stormwater system, the utilities to serve both parcels, as well as the cross access to the two driveways. staff went into the traffic flow through the site so i won't go into that i originally was going to but what i will explain is that we met with staff several times we also did a community outreach meeting where we met with neighborhood residents and we went through several reiterations of the plan the outcome of that is the plan that you see today which has the building oriented the way it is moved up to the front of the property on gulf today so that it maximizes the separation from the residential uses to the north as well as directing the majority of sound generation towards gulf today away from the residential it also provides for greater vehicular queuing opportunities as well Management of traffic flow was a significant factor. I touched on that already. I would like to point out that this is not a full-service car wash. It's an automated car wash tunnel, and then self-service for doing any vacuuming or detailing that you may want to do. Customers are typically there for about 12 minutes, and so they're not there for a prolonged period or loitering on the property, as we've heard from some of the residents when we've talked to them. One thing I'd like to point out is the traffic study, because of changes in the Institute of Traffic Engineers ITE standards, they did away with the standards of looking at it by number of bays and it switched to by square footage. The traffic engineer looked at the worst case scenario, which includes the upstairs storage and equipment area, which doubles the size of the facility. It's actually a 3,176 square foot footprint. And then that's double that because of the storage and equipment area upstairs. So based on ETE standards, it would be expected that the trip duration would be half of that or less. In another jurisdiction, another county here in the Tampa Bay area, I've recently been advised by their traffic staff to not include the second floor. So that's something to keep in mind as well. And also to note, the traffic study did include the potential for a coffee shop going on that other property as well. So it was looked at comprehensively. The staff had talked about it. When I show the site, let me go back. Actually, I won't go back to the site unless you want me to. But as staff pointed out, we've done, as they put it, robust landscaping. All of our perimeter buffers and ground cover are above and beyond the code minimum requirements. In addition to that, we are putting in a six foot high opaque wall or fence to provide for screening and sound attenuation that is not required by code. We are doing that to provide for enhanced neighborhood compatibility. Next is the sound study. BAC did multiple studies on the site as well as comprehensive modeling. There were two versions of that study that were submitted to the city. An initial one based on doing enhanced sound mitigation techniques to the building that includes some sound deadening materials inside the building as well as that screening wall that's shown in red there on the plan. on the overhead that provides for both mitigation of sound from the dryer blowers as well. Sorry, I was not sure I thought of that. It provides both the screening and it provides for mitigating the sound impacts from the blowers. And those blowers, as I was alluding to earlier, are one of the main reasons why we oriented the building the way we did given multiple frontages. You want that to be oriented towards the street, not towards the neighborhood. The second study they did went back and looked at what the impact would be by doing the six foot fence along the northern property line as well. The one on the left shows what the noise would be if there wasn't mitigation systems in place for the building, as well as if the fence wasn't in place. The one on the right shows the sound based on if both of those are proposed. We are supportive of staff's recommendation to require those mitigation measures as part of our conditions of approval. And so as you can see, it reduces the decibels significantly. traffic and they are somebody the sound engineer determined that it lowers the sound levels by three to five decibels and determine that the levels actually are less than that of the surrounding noise coming from the roadways how much longer would it take for you to wrap up one to two minutes i'll give you the one or two minutes but i'll also allow some additional time to those seeking party interest in the city needs it as well okay So the sound engineer determined, and I put the quote there on the right side of the slide, they determined that there will actually be the background noise that comes from the existing or hill roadways is actually louder and basically drowns out the operating sound from the car wash. And remember, that is the worst case scenario where There's cars stacked in the queuing lane as well as every vacuum facility is being operated at the same exact time as well as the car wash tunnel. And then finally, I wanted to point out that water conservation is also on the forefront of Woody's vision. They use technology that can serve 70% of the water. The water is recycled multiple times. There's recycling tanks that filter sand and oils and other materials from the wash materials that can be reused to reduce water use, as well as the cleanliness of it for, well, for use as wash, but then for discharge into the city's sanitary system. And then finally with that, I'm available to answer any questions that you have.

Gave them roughly about two minutes. So I'll give those with party status about one minute since they have half the amount of time for presentation that you normally have. Okay. Does anybody have questions of the applicant?

I do.

Okay. Please go ahead.

Do you have your DOT application and permit at this time?

No, not yet. We're applying for it. We do not have any driveways on DOT. We do not have a utility permit because our utilities come from Saturn. It's only a DOT drainage permit. And we'll have a construction agreement because part of one thing I didn't get to mention was that we're increasing safety by closing eight of the city driveways. on Saturn and Mars. We're closing a on-street drop-off as well as direct back-out parking. So it's a safety upgrade both for the city and for DOT. And so we have to do a construction agreement because we're widening the DOT sidewalk to provide for an enhanced pedestrian sidewalk on the DOT right-of-way as well as constructing new sidewalks on both city right-of-ways.

So the left end coming eastbound on Gulf to Bay is going to remain coming into this side street yes there have been no modifications to gulf today okay and is the uh stormwater swift mud permit applied for here because i see no stormwater we we've applied for it we did provide drainage calcs to the city but that's part of the next step of their review but we did provide them in advance so under the new swift mud code you're not granted the uh exemption relative to impervious. Correct.

That's correct.

We plan on going underground with this or yes, we did.

We did not get any redevelopment exemptions at all. We have to meet DOT criteria. We have to meet city criteria and actually the most stringent is the city's criteria because the city looks at the change of use as new development rather than redevelopment. So we did not get credit. for the existing use. The city's requirements are actually driving the design, and it's all 100% underground storage, and it's designed for both properties.

Speaking of both properties, this is the Dutch Brothers you show on the site plan?

I can't speak to the specific user, but it is a drive-thru coffee shop, yes.

That's a 24-car stack, I believe.

I believe so. We're not the engineer on that. The concept was provided by their engineer.

Okay. Is that... is that going to have to come in front of our board that that site plan do we know staff would have to answer that question i'm not sure i would have to see an actual application to be able to assess the process i do not know the answer to that because nothing's been formally submitted so if i'm making a left-hand coming into this property i have to go all the way to the back of the property If I'm traveling eastbound where most of the residential is coming from, say the beaches, et cetera, I'll have to circulate all the way through to the back of this property to get to the coffee shop? Is that what I'm observing on this site plan? Yes.

We're proposing two driveways, both towards the northern end of the property.

OK. Yeah, I just did a Dutch Brothers, and there's 40 cars in the stack every day, all day. It's unbelievable. just to make staff aware of that and the circulation that is going to occur in the back. I think it's very relevant to understand that.

As for today, it's still considered a vacant parcel as for today.

He said the traffic study was a part of this that included that. That's why I'm including that discussion.

Oh, I understand. It's good to note. Yeah.

Is that curb cut here on this site plan overview, is that in place, will that be in place now so that the traffic can come? There's two.

Yes, Woody's will be building both driveways, both to Saturn and to Mars.

And then what about this one over here to get to the coffee shop?

If you're coming eastbound, you have to circulate all the way around.

All the way around. Right.

We build both those driveways, and then if you see at the top of the screen where the word cross-access is, that stub out is where their aisle inside the property will connect.

Okay. On this site plan, there's a proposed curb cut right here?

If the city permit said that would be done through their application, we would not be building that.

Okay. Thank you.

Anybody have any other questions of the applicant before we run out of party status?

Okay.

Thank you. We may have more questions for you on cross-examination.

Okay. Thank you. And we do have representatives of both Woody's and the property ownership of the church are here if you have questions for them as well.

Appreciate that. Thank you. All right. I'm going to go in the order in which you all sought party status, just because it's easier to follow my notes because then I can read them. Ms. Arete, do you want to come forward? We'll allow six minutes instead of five, just because of the additional time allowed to the applicant.

I don't know if you want me talking for six minutes. Again, Carolyn O'Rourke. I was sworn in. I swore in. I am the next-door neighbor. I've owned the property and lived on this property for 10 years now. I do understand that they consider it commercial property right around there where we are, but I do want it to be known that it is completely residential. Everybody that's right around this exact property they're discussing is... is homes, there's people living there. So I am a landlord, but I'm also a living in that building, right? So my house specifically, I guess I'll try to do this right.

Yes.

My house. There's across the street from my house, across the street from my house, several years ago when the city, I guess, opened up Keene. Keene used to end at Gulf to Bay and then start again maybe on the other side. They developed a whole community park right there. So we have a community park across the street from us. Again, there are absolutely no sidewalks anywhere to be seen. There are just dozens of families that live literally right around this, children, dogs, you know, on walks every single day. And we don't have any, we wouldn't have any way to, you know, walk on sidewalks and whatnot. Also with the, therefore, with the entrance coming in from Saturn and out on Mars, when you come out on Mars, if you want to head back east on Gulf to Bay, you have to come to Rainbow Drive or go even further down to get access to get over to Keene to then go back east on the road. So there will be, I think, the site study, so whatever the study was, 1,200. It said 2,200 vehicles, but I'm assuming that's round trip or whatever. So 1,200 vehicles, let's call it half, 600 extra vehicles a day that are going to be going the other way when they leave this car wash will be coming through our neighborhoods. So again, we have over 150 people that signed petitions. Those were handed in. I can't tell that you guys got all of them handed to you, but... because it seemed like it was piecemealed what they were willing to put into the approval here for the city. But there was 150 people that signed, and then some people couldn't appear today. Also, some people were scared to show up, to be honest with you.

The next thing is, just so you can see,

There's the car wash that they're proposing. There's a drive-thru coffee one and a half blocks away, and there's a Mr. Car Wash two blocks away. So literally within proximity of walking on my own feet, I already have another drive-thru coffee shop, and we already have another giant car wash. And that is more, everything around that other car wash is the Burger King, a Wendy's, it's truly commercial property. There's no residences around them. don't understand the concept. In a nutshell, that's what, you know, on top of all that, the other ladies are gonna tell you about the noise we do fear. The thing that I think is that the way the church is positioned now, the way I understand, it's actually blocking us from a lot of the noise right now. It keeps a lot of the Gulf to Bay noise out of our neighborhood. Now they're gonna tear down that big, giant, you know, heavy structure that would keep the noise from coming in. And then on top of that, add this additional noise that they're adding to the neighborhood with the car wash. I don't believe that they actually, I know that they said they did the noise study. They didn't really account for, they called the neighbor's house, my neighbor's house. They looked at just the front building. There is a whole side building that you don't see. It's actually two structures. And I mean, just so you could understand that. Just so you can understand, she lives in that building on the far right. That's going to be the PVC fence they put up right there between their property and her window to her house. So it's going to be, I mean, two feet away from the window to her where she dwells and has lived in this community for 35 years, I'm pretty sure. So noise, the traffic, again, is honestly one of our biggest concerns that I could think of. And then I went ahead and I did look up any other Woody's car shack that I could find. And they are normal.

They're normal. They're nowhere near people's property.

So there's a car shack. there's people's properties quite some time away that you don't have to walk right past it and have all the cars coming and going.

You need to be speaking into the microphone, I'm sorry.

You could tell that they're placed in locations that are not right next door to residences. So again, hopefully you were able to see that there were, on top of that, we have about 50 different neighbor statements, all people saying the same thing, that they're very concerned about the safety of the neighborhood and how many cars are now going to be coming down Mars Avenue that we've never had before being here. The other thing that I am not an expert witness on, I do not believe that this actually is a comprehensive infill redevelopment project, which is how they were able to skirt past the height requirements. They don't have to ask you for variances. They're going through kind of a i don't know however you want to say it but there are a couple things that that don't really you have to meet seven different criteria i believe and i do not believe that this meets all the criteria to even be considered a comprehensive infill redevelopment project which would mean that um they'd have to go to the normal route and and have some more stringent um review for instance you guys were just mentioning it up here about the which way it's facing how the tunnel is and whatnot they're skirting past all that by by going through and saying that it's a comprehensive infill redevelopment project. Thank you. I know my time's up. Yep. Okay.

Got it. Thank you very much. Before you go, does anybody have any questions?

I have one question on Saturn. You're familiar with Saturn? Sure. Can you make a left out on the Gulf to Bay at that intersection, Gulf to Bay at this time?

out of Saturn. When you leave any of those roads, Mars, Saturn, any of them at Gulf to Bay, you can only turn right. You can only turn left.

Well, there's a cut coming in eastbound.

It seems to block the road. It seems like it's left only. That's the left where it goes down that way. There's a cut that's not lined up in the street.

You have to go all the way to Caribou Coffee where there's a light to make a left.

Okay, so it shows right turn on.

Yeah, they're all right turn on. They utilize it as a left in.

Left into Saturn from Gulf of Bay, but not left out. Right. Right, so anybody leaving. The median goes too far.

Does anybody have any other questions?

Thank you very much. All right, thank you. Where did my list go? Sorry about that. Of course, I mixed up the notes, so now I've misplaced my list. Give me a moment, and I'll get it here in a second. It was a lady whose last name began with a C. There you go. Ms. Caterino. Thank you.

Good job. Not everybody gets that name right.

My last name is Bucica, so, you know, have some practice with difficult names.

Good afternoon. My name is Lisa Caterino, again, 306 South Mars Avenue. My home shares a corner with the church property.

Can you confirm that you were sworn in just...

That was next on my list. I actually wrote it down. And my bedroom is about 130 feet from the proposed outdoor vacuum area. I have been sworn in. Thank you for hearing me. In April, I submitted the first letter of objection that went on public record for this project. Included was an informal review of other communities where car washes were built close to homes. What stood out was that many residents spoke up after car washes were already open when the noise was part of daily life and much harder to fix. People called the noise relentless, even like living in a blender. They kept windows shut and use their yards less. They asked officials for help, but by then they were trying to manage a problem that was already there. This project has not been built yet. You still get to decide if that problem belongs here. To be fair, Woody's did make changes. The traffic study first projected 2,550 daily trips. That was cut to 1790. They also added a vinyl fence along the residential side for sound control. I appreciate those changes, but they didn't fix the main problem. This is still a high impact commercial use pushed deep into a quiet, peaceful neighborhood. My main concern is the noise. There would be a 24 outdoor vacuum stations, just 130 feet away from me. Four of my neighbors are even closer than that. I live there. I work there. I'm familiar with the neighborhood noises. When children played in the church playground, their voices carried so clearly that at times they sounded like they were right outside my window. I can hear leaf blowers from several houses away and dumpster trucks from a block away. But those sounds stop. They're a part of the normal neighborhood noise. This would be entirely different. It would be repeated commercial noise for about 12 hours a day, seven days a week. Vacuum motors, cars, idling engines, doors, radios, people talking. and all the activity that comes with nearly 1,800 daily trips. No one sound may seem extreme. It's the pitch, the repetition, length and closeness that concern me. That's why I ask you not to treat the sound study as the whole answer. I respect the people that prepared it. I'm not an acoustical engineer, and I'm not saying that their math is wrong. My point is simple. Compliant on paper doesn't always mean compatible in real life. A model can predict sound, but a model can't sleep in my bedroom or work from my home. I'm a renter. This is my home. It's my place of work. And because of my work schedule, I sometimes sleep in the morning when the business would already be open, late night hours. Moving isn't a realistic fix. It takes money, time, deposits, and finding another affordable place. I don't have thousands of dollars or endless time to move because a new commercial use was put almost in my backyard. I am not against car washes. My objection to this is the location. The prior use was a place of worship. The proposed use is limited vehicle service. Those are vastly different uses. A low impact business can sit beside homes without constant cars and machinery. This one can't. You have the chance to prevent this problem before residents are back here months or years from now asking what can be done. A home should be a place where you can close the door and have peace. A home shouldn't have to be the sound buffer for someone else's business. The applicant has improved the plan. I give them credit for that. But the location hasn't changed, and the basic compatibility problem hasn't changed. I respectfully ask you to deny this application and allow a lower impact use that truly fits beside the people who already live there. Thank you.

CHAIRMAN BRYANT ROWE. Does anybody have any questions? Thank you very much. Next, we would have Ms. Welsh.

Good afternoon. My name is Charlene Welsh. I live at 312 South Byers Avenue, immediately adjacent to the proposed development, and I've been sworn in. I'm asking the board to deny or defer this application because I do not believe the information.

Excuse me, hold on.

before you adequately demonstrates what impact of this development will be on the people living closest to it. My primary concern is noise. I live in a detached ground level efficiency apartment behind the duplex on South Mars Avenue. My apartment is not simply an address or point somewhere on a larger parcel. It is an occupied residence, and its physical location matters when determining how much sound from this car wash will reach the people living there. That is especially important because immediately outside my apartment is the open-sided metal-roofed carport that my neighbor and I use as an outdoor living area. I brought photographs today so the board can see the actual relationship between my apartment, my carport, the adjoining property, and the proposed development. Now, these pictures are just from an iPhone, and I had them printed out on here. I don't know how good they're going to show up here. So I think it might be better if they're there.

Put them there, and they can zoom in a little bit.

There's two pages.

Zoom in as we did.

Actually, the first one, just looking out my kitchen window, it's just showing that I see the church and the parking lot. I'm right there. There, it's right outside my kitchen window. The second one is my carport, which we use as an outdoor living area. My neighbor and I sit out there, we barbecue out there, the little cats stroll by. It's nice, it's shaded. We both live in efficiency, so it's like living in a box. So to get out of that situation sometimes, we go out there. Although there is a yard, grassy area, you know, it's full of bugs, ants, there's really no shade. So this is almost like an extension of my apartment, which is right behind that. And then the bottom one just shows the view to the left when you're looking outside the carport. I have no grippers on my fingers. All right, this is also top one is a view. That's looking to the right, right by my carport. Second photo is in my backyard. That's a duplex in front of me. And then the bottom one here is where I live and my neighbor's apartment, okay? I'M CONCERNED THAT THE SOUND ANALYSIS MAY NOT ADEQUATELY REPRESENT THE LOCATION OF MY APARTMENT AND THE CONDITIONS IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING IT. BEFORE THIS PROJECT IS APPROVED, I BELIEVE THE BOARD SHOULD BE ABLE TO DETERMINE WHERE MY APARTMENT IS REPRESENTED IN THE SOUND MODEL, WHAT SOUND RECEIVER REPRESENTS IT AND WHAT SOUND LEVEL IS ACTUALLY PREDICTED AT THAT LOCATION. I ALSO HAVE CONCERNS ABOUT PROPOSED SIX-FOOT BARRIER WALL. BECAUSE I LIVE AT GROUND LEVEL, IMMEDIATELY BESIDES THIS DEVELOPMENT, THAT WALL WILL BECOME A SIGNIFICANT PHYSICAL FEATURE DIRECTLY OUTSIDE MY LIVING AREA. I asked the board to consider not only what that wall is intended to accomplish, but what effect placing it there will have on the people who actually live immediately beside it. I'm also concerned about vehicle activity associated with the development because of how close my apartment and carport are to the project. These are abstract concerns to me. This is my home. if i am not a medical engineer i am not asking the board to accept a technical opinion from me what i'm asking is much simpler before approving this project please make sure that the actual occupied residents closest to this development and that is me and the real physical conditions immediately surrounding it were specifically evaluated. That cannot be clearly demonstrated from the evidence before you today, I respectfully ask that you deny or defer the application until it can be. And I'd like to know, Can the applicant show the board exactly where my apartment is located in the sound model and identify the receiver used to represent it and state the predicted sound level at that location?

Can I make a suggestion for you? Those are great questions to ask on cross-examination of either the applicant or the city and their analysis of the sound report. So that would be very good to keep in mind. I'm not giving you legal advice. Yeah, I understand. There's stuff in there that I would have the same questions about. And they have a report so they can do that. Do you have anything further? I didn't want to cut you off.

No, that's all right.

No, that's it.

Does anybody have any questions of Ms. Walsh?

Ms. Walsh, can you... Can you somehow point out to me where, on this site plan, where are you in this?

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, okay. Do I have it? Oh my God, this is so tiny. Here's Mars.

Here's Saturn. And so here's the first house of Saturn. Okay. I am right...

I just wanted to know where you were in relation to the... She's in the corner of that little notch out of the north end of the property. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Next we would have Daniel Jeffrey. or Welsh as he calls you, but you know.

Okay, I got two first names. My name is Daniel Jeffery. I've been sworn in and I am a property owner and chairman of the business at 300 South Saturn Ave. We are a nonprofit software research and development company. A few things I'd like to point out. The application is, excuse me, I forgot my notes. I had a hard time finding parking. The application is a comprehensive redevelopment or something like that, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a car wash. I would like to respectfully ask that you consider the abutting street to be Gulf to Bay as the applicant has already stated that they're considering Gulf to Bay as the immediate vicinity or the where they're considering it has to be in compliant with the properties around it. They're considering it as Gulf to Bay Corridor. But also the code states the immediate vicinity, not just Gulf to Bay Corridor, right? Gulf to Bay Corridor is huge. It's several miles long. And so we have to consider the properties that are immediately adjacent to the site. And I'd like to point out the entire northern part of the property, all the adjacent properties on Saturn and on Mars and then immediately north. They're zoned commercial, but people live there. That's all residences. There's apartments. There's houses. So it's not just commercial. It's not just businesses that are there. People live here. And I'd also like to point out that Clearwater, as far as I understand, is under a modified phase three extreme water shortage. You know, so I'm limited on when I can water my lawn. I'm limited on when I can wash my car. You know, there's one day a week, but we can put in another car wash that's cycling, you know, 2000 cars through a day. Um, so I just don't think that that really fits the best interests of the city of Clearwater and the people here. And, um, know i've talked to pretty much everybody that is adjacent to this property i walked around i'm the one that started the petition that these two ladies so generously got a lot more signatures than i did but i was the first to initiate that petition and i talked to almost every single resident in the immediate area and not one of them wanted car wash here and i don't think we're against having the site be developed but a car wash is a lot of traffic it's a lot of noise it's a water a lot of water usage and this whole area is you know it's where we walk our dog it's where we walk our kid you know i have a one and a half year old kid that i bring to work with me and you know we go on walks in this neighborhood and you know there's a lot of pedestrians on bicycles a lot of teenagers you know taking their bike to school and and stuff like that and so i don't think you know having an additional 1700 or 1800 or whatever number of cars that they predict going through is is really adequate for the neighborhood that's in the immediate vicinity of this property and you know they tried to get around a lot of the regulations by putting the entrance and exit to the car wash on Saturn and Mars. So they didn't put it on Gulf to Bay, so they didn't have to get a DOT review of changing the traffic, getting the utilities connected to DOT property. They can change the direction of the building. They've done a lot of things. that I don't think are appropriate with this development. And I guess that's all I have. I'd ask the Board to deny this application.

CHAIRMAN BRYANTLE. Does anybody have any questions of Mr. Jeffrey? Seeing none, thank you very much. CHAIRMAN BRYANTLE. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BRYANTLE. The other Mr. Jeffrey, Fred Jeffrey.

Yes, my name is Fred Jeffrey, J-U-F-F-E-R-Y, and I've been sworn in. That's my older brother, in case you're wondering. But I was really impressed. This is the very first, I don't even know what it's called in city council, or whatever it is. I'm a little bit older than a teenager, and I've never participated in anything government related. That's just to speak of the passion I have for this. But anyway, I was really impressed you guys opened with a word of prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance, liberty and justice for all. I myself run a Bible fellowship twice a week, and it's very successful. But recently politics has come up in my Bible fellowship, and I put an immediate stop to it, not the time or place. But what I do want to point out is what I taught everybody there. One thing was that we are bound by the word of God and God to pray for our government to have a quiet and peaceful life. So I'm going to speak for the people in the neighborhood concerning what I know and I observed and I experienced. Most commercial properties on Gulf to Bay are directly pull in and pull out, which is fine. This is not. This is Saturn and Mars. And as was pointed out earlier, if anybody wants to go eastbound on Keene or north or south, I mean, I'm sorry, north or south on Keene or east on Gulf to Bay, You drive on Saturn and Mars and put in your GPS, you want to go that direction, and it goes straight through the neighborhood. And there's not many sidewalks. I walk a dog once or twice a day. And I vary the direction of where we go, up or down Saturn or Mars or down Rainbow, away from there, yeah. And I drive up Saturn every day to and from work. And I drive very slow and cautious, but there's no sidewalks. And oftentimes, I've got families that are walking, or younger people, or people dog walking, and I have to pull over in the other lane and go really slow. So we're talking a lot of traffic going through there, and that's what I oppose. And then it's... I'm sorry, I'm nervous. I don't speak in front of crowds much. But we did walk around the neighborhood and spoke to pretty much everybody that was home on more than one occasion. So we caught more people. And like Daniel stated, nobody was in favor for it. They were opposed to this. And if it wasn't for the traffic, I wouldn't mind. I'm all for free market capitalism. I'm for growth and community. I'm for every business that can come in. I mean, we came in. But we sit there and park all day long. And usually into the night, it's only five cars. So there is that. But that many cars going up and down those roads is not a quiet and peaceful life. And those are the people I speak for. So thanks for your time.

Thank you. Thank you.

Anybody have any questions? Seeing none, Mr. Sirianni.

I don't have really too much to say today. The neighbors really said it all. My biggest thing is we've been in the community for 10 years. I own two car washes in Clearwater. I don't think adding another car wash that is right next to us is really a good idea. I think there should be something else that happens there. There are 17 car washes in Clearwater. It's 1,200 feet away from this one, and there's definitely not a shortage of it. So my reason today is just I don't think clean water really needs another bar wash. I mean, I know how the whole thing works. It's loud. There's music playing. There's vacuums on literally 12 hours a day, 13 hours a day. You get cleaning in the morning, cleaning at nighttime. So it's like 15-hour operations every single day, seven days a week. I'm standing here in front of you guys. I just hope you guys deny it. I don't think this is really what Clearwater needs, another car wash. And every single car wash I own, they have never been a new development. Every single one have either been us buying an existing one, renovating it, doing it for the better, And so, I mean, I get more competition. I'm not really standing here as like, you know, being afraid of another competition. I really respect Woody's. I think they do a great job, but I don't think it's the best use adding it at this property right next to these neighbors and literally 200 feet from another car wash. And they want to build a coffee shop where you have one literally being open now, not even 500 feet away. That's all I have to say.

Anybody have any questions?

Yeah, what type of car wash do you have?

The same idea of a tunnel? Same business, exact same business model. Tunnel with three vacuums, express models. We have a full service model as well. I own five of them. Four is express. Exact same business model as Woody's.

Thank you.

Thank you.

That takes care of our Presentations of party status individuals. Does the city have any cross-examination it wants to do?

No cross, Mr. Chair. All right.

Does the applicant have any cross-examination it wants to do? And so we're clear. Cross-examination would be asking those who spoke to clarify some of the things they said. It's not the second opportunity for you to test. I know that. And that was my hesitation. Too many people come up and do the wrong thing.

I know. I hate the idea of cross-examining. because I don't want to come across as confrontational on it. I actually want to recognize Daniel Jeffery in particular, and there were a couple others that came out to the community outreach meeting we had. We had an opportunity to have an in-depth conversation with him, and I'm getting to why I'm going to ask the question. The question I have for Mr. Jeffery, Dave Jeffery, is... One clarification, the concern that he's got about pedestrian safety, is that one of the concern about the lack of sidewalks within the neighborhood? Because as I've already testified, we're providing new sidewalks filling in gaps that are existing along our continuous frontage in all three streets. But my understanding from my previous conversation with him is it's a concern about sidewalks throughout the rest of the neighborhood north of our property.

Is that the question to him? Yes.

I want to ask him if his concern is the lack of sidewalks in the neighborhood.

You're doing sidewalks off-site of your property?

We're doing sidewalks on all three road frontages, continuous the entire length, including widening DOT's sidewalk to make it multimodal. It's being increased in width. And as I said earlier, there's eight existing driveways as well as back-in, back-out parking and a drop-off area that's on the street. We're closing all of those, and therefore, as part of those driveway closures, we're putting in a new sidewalk to replace all of that as well.

So you're not doing anything off-site of your property?

We're doing adjacent to the property. We're not doing anything beyond the property lines.

Is that a consideration as a part of your presentation today?

We have it on the plan. I'm not sure if I'm understanding the question. We have it on the plans.

So take it up to Rainbow.

Oh, no, we have not considered doing that now. We did talk with Mr. Daniel and the rest of the residents that came out to the meeting about that we would help them with talking to the appropriate city staff about getting those sidewalks installed to provide a better continuous network.

Did you understand the question?

Yes. To answer briefly, yes, my main concern would be throughout the neighborhood, not necessarily just sidewalk on the immediate vicinity of the property. I would like to thank the applicant for putting in a sidewalk on this area. I think that is generous. But the main concern would be the additional traffic that has to go through the neighborhood, whether they're entering the car wash or they want to go on Keene or they want to go east on Gulf Bay. They're going to have to drive through at least a block of neighborhood just to get out onto Keene. And so there's a lot of pedestrian traffic that goes through there, a lot of kids and a lot of people walking, elderly people and so forth. So I think that's my main concern.

Thanks. Do you have any further questions?

No, no others. Everything else for closing.

Ms. Larocca, did you have any questions for any of the people who presented today? Ms. Caterino? Ms. Welsh? Come up to the microphone, please. Can't do it from there. We've got to make it a part of the public record.

Just make sure you specify who you're asking a question to so they can come up and answer.

Who do you have a question for?

Well, whoever did the acoustic sound.

That would probably be the applicant since they're presenting it as part of their package. Applicant, okay. So Mr. Pence, she has some questions about the acoustic study.

Ready?

Go ahead, please.

Okay, can the applicant show the board exactly where my apartment is located in the sound model, identify the receiver used to represent it, and state the predicted sound level at that location?

Well, the applicant comes forward with that as far as what's in our materials. It was kind of blurry in his presentation, the handout that I got as far as the numbers, the decibels and so on. But if you go into the public set documents starting on page 150, three is where the sound study stuff really has data that would be relevant to her question. Because I was looking for that myself when she asked her question earlier. So if you go ahead and pose your question. Because he's right behind you to answer.

Oh, so I should start? OK.

And I'm going to apologize because I did not bring my reading glasses, so I'm not going to be able to read the number either. But I can show you where it is. The sound engineer went out and did a field assessment. They set up 13 meters. That's what these green dots show on the plan there.

And for us in our paper, that's page 154, the PDF that we have.

This is in the sound study, and I put it into PowerPoint as well. And then the one on the left shows those same locations with a 3D perspective, so you can see where the surrounding buildings are as well. So that sound meter is adjacent to, is at the property line for the house that's on that property. which is also our common property line where the future parcel is located. And then on the left, that location would be roughly the same place as where that call out where it says privacy wall along north property line. That's her apartment right there. So the meter reading for both her existing conditions and then the modeling itself was done based on right there at her property.

I see it also on page 146.

Fortunately, I can't read the numbers, so maybe I can read that on the overhead.

Yeah, I see it on page 146.

Do you recall what her address is? I might need to take that. I can read the wall better. I think it's 308.

312 South Mars.

312 South Mars. 312.

It's not on the sheet. 308.

There's a duplex there as well. What's the address of that duplex? I believe it's 308 or 312. Yeah, 308. 308. Because the location seems to be right between 308 and 312, right between her unit and that unit. Her unit seems to be to the left of the device that was capturing the sound, and the other one seems to be north of it, just from the way I'm looking at the images.

It looks like the Senate engineer used the address listed with the property appraiser. So that's position number six on the charter, which is roughly halfway down. The existing readings out there while they were taking those studies over a couple days was from 49 to 55 decibels. That's the noise that's occurring because of traffic passing on both arterials on Gulf of Bay and on Keene, as well as other noise, other sound coming from the neighborhood.

On this table here, the last column, the one that's furthest to the right, is what they're picking up now?

That's when they went out there with sound meters.

I just want to make sure that we're understanding it.

So the far right column shows when they went out and they set it up and they did readings for each of those locations. That's the sound levels that they picked up for the duration of that time. The first column shows if the mitigation measures weren't being proposed, that the sound coming from Woody's would be 55.2 decibels. With the mitigation, it reduces it to 50.6. which shows that it's within the range of sound that's already occurring on there, so it would essentially be drowned out by the existing ambient sound that you hear in the neighborhood. They're not additive?

Yeah, essentially taking it away, making it quieter?

No. The sound doesn't work that way.

Well, because of the fence, I think, is what it's... The way I understand it, it's because of the fence that they're putting up.

It's blocking... No, but I mean, what he's stating is Woody's is not adding any sound. Correct. And I'm saying, really?

yes their their modeling showed that they the from column one to column two shows that the mitigation measures reduce the sound levels so what you're stating is that once the it's built and operating the sound level the ambient sound level you wrote you are seeing now pretty much will stay the same or get less it would stay the same they're saying that it's not it's not additive

If you look, I have a different question that I'm going to come to after we kind of get yours clarified because I want to make sure I understand it. So staying on that line six, if you go back a little bit just over so we're kind of following along. So the first dark blue column, calculation 1-1, that would be where it would go to... if there was no sound mitigation. So instead of being in a range of 49 to 55, it would be 55.4. So it would be going up with the addition of the car wash sounds. But then with the sound measures, it would be, it would come back down to around 50.

Yes.

The numbers in the packet, I guess that chart might have been updated because... There were my line six looks different.

Okay. I'm not sure why. Cause this, this was the second sound side there. Cause there were two sound studies that were submitted to the city. It is one at the end of this. Yeah. There may be two in your packet. If you got the entire submittal history, the initial sound study was looking at no mitigation versus doing the mitigation with the wall and a It's not a silencer, but the sound deadening apparatus on the blower coming out of the car wash, as well as the additional insulation sound deadening materials in the car wash. They came back and did a second study, which is why there's that second column there that says, okay, with adding the fence to the north property line, This is the additional benefit of it. So if you wanted to see the three increments of it, you would have to look at both studies together. But this one shows, okay, if nothing was done versus everything that's being proposed is done.

Okay. And just so we're clear, because I mentioned page numbers before, there's an earlier – A newer study is earlier in that PDF. It begins on page five. And the chart that he's got there is on page seven of our PDF with those numbers there. And the rest of the study follows it. So that was, I was looking at the, it was in the packet, but it was the older study, but it was later in the packet. So I guess it would have been.

And that shows how we've been able to provide for. Understood. I just wanted to make sure that we're looking at the right things as we evaluate everything. So.

Right.

All right.

So that chart consistently moves on page seven of what we've got here. Okay.

And what I was shifting the paper to point out was that last bullet, that's a quote from the study. He found it consistent with the city's sound ordinance as well as that they're consistent with or lower than the current prevailing sound levels. And again, it was looked at during daytime hours. There are hours of operation limits, so it would not be occurring overnight, early morning hours. That would not occur. Okay.

Thanks for responding to her question. Ms. Welch, did you have any additional questions? Yeah. You have to come to the microphone to ask, and I'm sorry. You can sit in the front row if you have more questions as a follow-up. That's quite all right. I don't want to make you go back and forth, but we need to record it and capture it in the microphone.

I understand he's saying this complies, right? First of all, I don't see my apartment number. I see 309. Now, I understand that's a parcel, but I don't see 312.

So the location of the sound monitoring device would be on the side of your unit or building that you're in that's closest to Mars?

Okay, so it would be 3-0.

It'd be right between that unit that goes north-south and your unit that goes east-west.

Yeah, but why isn't it where I'm at? Right where I'm at. I'm right in the middle. I'm like right, and this thing is going to be.

I'm just answering your question about where.

Okay, so anyway, I'm asking whether that conclusion specifically reflects the sound predicted at the closest occupied detached residence under realistic operating conditions. I cannot believe this. It's going to be right, and they're going to put up a wall, and I'm not going to hear anything. I find that hard to believe. The wall is in my face. I'm being enclosed in by a wall going straight across my apartment, straight down. And you're going to tell me that's going to stop sound. I don't buy it.

Did you have any other questions? No. Okay, thank you. Cross-examination moving on then to either Dan or Mr. Jeffrey. Daniel, did you have any questions for anybody else that's presented testimony today? Fred Jeffrey, did you have any questions for any of the presenters? And Mr. Sirianni, do you have any questions for anybody? So that wraps up the cross-examination portion. Is there anybody here from the public that has not requested party status that wishes to address the board? Ma'am, come forward.

Good afternoon, my name is Ann Harmon, and I'm the pastor of St. Paul's Lutheran Church. My spelling of the last name is H-A-R-M-A-N, and yes, I was sworn in. More than four years ago, the leadership of St. Paul's began a process of rightsizing our real estate. We spent months in conversation with our congregation, with potential redevelopment partners, and city officials. Throughout this process, one priority remained constant. Whatever happened to the church property should benefit our neighbors along the Gulf to Bay Boulevard and in the Skycrest neighborhood where St. Paul's continues to distribute food to those in need every single week. When I spoke with Clearwater's mayor at the time, he identified one of the city's greatest needs for this neighborhood, meaningful employment opportunities. Over the years, we considered a wide variety of redevelopment proposals. At one point, we had a hotel developer under contract for more than a year. As part of that process, the property's land use and zoning were changed to general commercial consistent with the surrounding Gulf to Bay corridor. During that process, we did not encounter opposition to either the redevelopment of the church property or the zoning designation. Many developers have approached us with alternative proposals. We declined to move forward with any proposal that lacked a clear plan. People can submit to purchase the property without making any plan public, including to us. We believed it was important to evaluate actual projects, not just purchase offers. After careful consideration with many possibilities presented to us, we chose to move forward with Woody's because of several well researched and deeply important factors. First, Woody's is an accomplished commercial developer with a proven track record of doing what is promised. The company places a high value on being a good neighbor in every community it serves. Second, Woody's has demonstrated a long standing commitment to community involvement, supporting local schools, non-profit organizations, and community initiatives. And most importantly, Woody's is committed to hiring from within the immediate community whenever possible. This commitment reflects an opportunity to provide jobs, hope, and economic opportunity in the very community that St. Paul's has served for more than 70 years. In our earlier discussions with Woody's, I decided to learn more about the company firsthand. Beyond reading news articles and company materials, I visited the Woody's location on Omerton Road and had my car washed. The site was immaculate. No one there knew who I was or why I had come. And while I was there, I struck up a conversation with a young employee, likely in his early 20s, and I asked about his experience for working for Woody's. He enthusiastically told me it was the best job he ever had.

When I asked why, he spoke not only- I'm going to need you to wrap it up quickly, because your three minutes is actually up, but I'll give you another 30 seconds.

I'll finish. Thank you for your consideration on behalf of St. Paul's Lutheran Church. I encourage you without reservation to approve this project and welcome Woody's to the Clearwater and Skycrest neighborhood. Thank you.

Anybody else from the public wish to speak? Sir, come forward, state your name. Let us know if you've been sworn, and you've got three minutes.

Thank you, Boyd. My name's Jackson Bacchus, B-A-C-H-U-S. I swore in. Um, and I'm speaking for the half of sunshine. Um, we have a location on Missouri with the sound ordinance, um, with a fence, we have a fence. Also, we stopped playing our music at 9 00 AM because we got neighbors calling in for complaining, um, with loud music. So that's firsthand, um, traffic. I'm at firsthand. We see traffic when we do events, grand opening backs up any, any kind of road. I mean, that's just pretty much what I wanted to say for the firsthand experience. Okay.

All right. Thank you.

Thank you.

Does anybody else in the public have any comments they wish to make to the board? Seeing none, close remarks by planning and development staff.

Got something real quick here I just want to remind the board about. Sure, go ahead. Today we did hear a lot of testimony from the residents about potential traffic issues and potential noise pollution. And we didn't necessarily hear it from any experts that were among the residents, so I just want to remind you all that that testimony that we heard would not be considered competent substantial evidence, which means it's not something that you should take into consideration, in my opinion, with your decision that you make today. So that's all I wanted to bring up.

Thank you. Any closing remarks by people with status? Ms. Arrete, any closing remarks? You have three minutes.

Again, Carolyn O'Rourke. First of all, just to represent what he just said here, we're all kind of new to this. We're just citizens of the community and we were told actually like any kind of, we didn't understand that we could have such experts show up and actually be listened to. I do want to make it clear that Woody's as of not quite maybe a month or so ago, sold out to private equity. So it is not a community owned company. It is a private equity backed company. And we haven't been able to find anywhere online that they've done any real charitable work or anything for the community. And since most of the car wash itself is self-proclaimed self-washing, I don't really know exactly how many people they'd be hiring at all from this community to run the car wash, because it does most of the work itself. So again, yes, I guess we're not experts, but we're experts at living in our community. And yes, there are no sidewalks. Nobody's going to start building. Most of the community doesn't want sidewalks. They're beautiful homes. We are a very nice community of people that just in normal circumstance are not having to deal with some kind of a commercial situation put into our residences. Again, I don't appreciate being told that none of our testimony should be listened to and hopefully you will sincerely consider it. Thank you.

COMMISSIONER MAYOVSKY- Ms. Caterina, do you have closing remarks? You have three minutes.

Yeah, I think I just want to reiterate that this is an intensive commercial use being placed very close to a quiet, peaceful neighborhood. And, you know, I'm somebody who just cares about my living experience, and it really hurts to hear that guy say, just don't listen to us. I'm sorry, but it does. So, you know, it's my home. It's where I live. It's where I work. And it would just be really sad to see the community turned into a high commercial use place instead of what it used to be and what it is right now. Peaceful and a place you want to go home to. Thank you.

Thank you. Ms. Welsh, any closing remarks?

I'd just like to say this is not simply a commercial business operating next to residences. is a high-value, repetitive use operation with vehicles continuously entering and exiting, vacuum equipment operating, blowers cycling throughout the day, and associated traffic noise. The question should not simply be whether commercial development is permitted on this property, but whether this particular intensive use is compatible with the homes immediately surrounding it. This is an inconvenience to me. Like I said before, this is my home. I've lived in Clearwater 35 years. I've lived at this place three. And I love it. I love the peace and quiet. It's the perfect place for me. I couldn't believe I had it. And I can afford it. I cannot simply relocate if the impact becomes unbearable. Nor should residents have to leave their homes to accommodate an incompatible development.

Thank you so much for your time Daniel jeffrey Yeah, my name is daniel jeffrey i've been sworn in i'd like to thank the board for hearing all of us today and You know, we may not be experts in a field of study but You know, we are experts in living and working in this neighborhood. And, you know, whether or not this is approved, you know, it has to be compatible with the nature of the surrounding properties in the immediate vicinity. And, you know, I would like to, you know, reiterate that, you know, we have 150 signatures, petitions from those that, you know, live and work in this community and, you know, I think the general consensus of us that are in the immediate vicinity is that we don't want a high traffic car wash right next to where we live and work and walk our dogs and our kids. I would just ask that you keep that into consideration. Thank you.

Fred Jeffery, do you have any closing comments? No comments? Okay, thank you. Mr. Soriano, do you have any closing comments? None? Okay. All right. Closing remarks are done. That would conclude the public hearing portion of this. At this time, discussion and vote by the board. We can either start with somebody making a motion or we can start with going around the table and having a discussion about it like we've done in some matters in the past. The amount of evidence here or the amount of testimony here, I should say, we should, I'm open to either way as far as the board goes.

Can I get a clarification of something, though? Yeah, speak up. Sorry, can I get a clarification?

What do you need a clarification of?

Well, just, isn't there a light at Saturn?

No. Lights at Duncan and King. Duncan. um what's your let's discuss it first and then if we need to go to statement um at the testimony many of the applique of the third party or the uh grant party

They all related to compatibility. Was this project compatible with the neighborhood, compatible, compatible? I heard that word repeatedly. And I just want to address that or let the city address that clearly so they can know that that has to pass the land use compatibility. I mean, there's laws that govern the compatibility.

Yeah, and the reason why I want to hear your question first is that's kind of part of their presentation. And it's a good question because... I felt that one of the emails that came in, and I believe it was Mrs. O'Rourke's email, I tried to address the city's points on compatibility one by one. And I thought it was a well thought out email. And I think the city, in putting their presentation together, was addressing that. So the report from the city that we have as part of our evidence has addressed all those points and that's part of what we should have read in advance here and i think we all did and those the public comments hers in particular i think addressed those points and we can weigh that in sort of deliberation i don't know that we reopen for a presentation on each of the compatibility items at this point um but uh her email was actually very good uh probably one of the better ones i've seen over the years i've been on this board to be honest But, you know, I don't want to reopen the presentation. That's what that would take. If they go through all the compatibility points, it's actually in the staff report, so I don't know that we do that.

I agree. I just wanted to make sure we're clear that that issue has been addressed. Okay. Thank you.

Anybody have other comments? I have a few comments I want to make, but I think I'll go ahead and make an additional discussion or go to a motion from there. clarify something because I think and I understand some of the offense that may have been taken by the city attorney's comment. While our rules of evidence and our rules of procedure are, I don't want to say loose, they allow us a bit of flexibility, the reality is, the expectation is if there's expert reports that they're rebutted with expert reports because I think Ms. Welsh's point was really important to me, and it concerns me, to be honest with you. I'm struggling weighing it in my head because the location of that sound sensor that picked up that information, that sound, further away from the vacuums than where the back corner of the house is where she occupies. And that kind of bothers me in terms of how representative that is of where the sound's going to impact her. And the reality is I'm not certain, without her permission, it could have been placed anyplace else because the way her unit is and the way she's got the back area they wouldn't be able to put anything there, it seems like. It had been very difficult to without permission, but where it was put probably makes some sense. And that's me, not as an expert, making some assumptions there, but that's one of the reasons why you need expert testimony. So the comment was that you didn't know what you're talking about. The comment is that there's a burden of proof that usually you match expert testimony with expert testimony. And in this particular instance, I have seen these matters come up. I've been on this board. I served for eight years, and I turned out, and I took a break for a bit, and I came back on, and I'm going on three or four years again now. A lot of times I feel bad because, and not that I don't hear, but people find out about it a week before or two weeks before. And the first email I got on this, I was copying an email back in April. And I didn't see anything on our agenda. And then I saw an agenda for this month. I'm like, OK, it's coming up. There was plenty of time to get something. If you're looking at a report prepared by an expert, it takes time for a new expert to counteract that. but there was plenty of time in this instance. And that kind of concerns me because it makes it difficult for us. We don't necessarily want to ignore what you have to say with boots on the ground, but by the same token, there was time in this instance as compared to a lot of times where people show up in force to oppose something But they put their efforts together in two or three weeks. There's just not possible time to get a expert to rebut it. And so I'm kind of sitting here torn because I do think that would have been helpful to me and the rest of the board. And we don't have it to counteract the expert report. As far as my overall impressions of this as we look at and deliberate what we've got here, that sound issue to me is of a concern. I'm familiar with the area. The husband of one of my first cousins, his mother lived in the area a block and a half away from this for years, many years ago before she passed. So I've driven through these neighborhoods over the past. I've also known with my service in this board that these properties along this corridor here are commercial properties. And the struggle that we faced each time, so people understand, You're using the property residential, but it could be used for something else because it's actually his own commercial. And should that limit what the other commercial properties can use their property for? And that's the struggle that we have up here as a board. It's not taken lightly, and we have a lot to weigh in that context. But there's really... It kind of goes back and forth in terms of weighing all that. And as I look at this one here, it isn't to be a high-intensity use. I also want to mention for our board as we're looking at this, it's interesting to note there are no curb cuts on Gulf to Bay, and you probably couldn't get one if you tried. So no matter what use is going to be going on this property, The curb cuts are going to be from both Mars and Saturn. That's just probably not going to change. Would you? I disagree with that. You disagree?

You think you're going to get a curb cut? I've looked at every project along Gulf to Bay, and I've never had an issue with DOT getting a curb cut. Really? Look at the new coffee shop they're sharing with Bill Caesar's discussion. They combined the two to make it one. Everybody has a curb cut.

Combined two to make it one. Right. But there was a curb cut there. There were two curb cuts there. Right. A new curb cut is a little bit different. And you're more of an expert on that. I know from my clients coming to me as a commercial real estate attorney, one of the biggest impediments is getting a new curb cut as compared to combining and reducing curb cuts, which they're reducing a lot of the significant impediments that just wouldn't be allowed in today's scheme of development.

I'm doing one on 19 right now, and there's 70,000 trips. I think there's 50 on this road. And everybody's gotten a curb cut. And if you look at the community centers, they all have them. I mean, Walmart, everybody has it left in. They're forced to have it. And they're allowed. And I think in terms of pushing all the traffic to the back, is impeding that residential neighborhood. They don't have sidewalks. Why wouldn't that be a condition on the city approval? It's not. I don't think they really look at that. You're bringing a lot of trips with the coffee shop. It's probably not going to come to front. Let me finish.

I understand your comments, and I'm not going to disagree with you on this. So I was going to get to curb fence as being a challenge, and you're saying it may not be such. Great to know just from that context.

But I do look at this and say that we've got overall an issue of

limiting what the property can be used for and and the fact that properties abutting it are all commercial properties regardless of how they're using it that's a choice of the owners of that property and how they use it with their zoning and that that's where the dilemma becomes arises that's where it becomes difficult for these things since how do you limit somebody from property use that otherwise and i don't know that we can actually impose upon this developer to put sidewalks all the way up the street on both sides of the street they're putting sidewalks that are wrapping around the property from their testimony um and that's about as far as they can go i mean otherwise you're taking land from others i also question the traffic because if someone wants to go south on keen wouldn't they want to go up mars and turn on rainbow and get on keen now yeah i would

This thing only shows like one or two cars.

Can you get out from Rainbow? Well, from Rainbow you can.

Yeah, you'd be going south, though.

No, I think you have to go up to Cleveland to get to the Cleveland. So you'd be going through that? Yeah, you'd be going up to Cleveland to turn right, then turn right on Keene to go or left on Keene.

And so if you wanted to go south again and you stayed on Gulf of Bay, you'd have to go up to and take a U-turn or something?

A U-turn or... Or go down to, if you want to go that direction, go down to Saturn where the light is and go north that way. There's, you know, and the neighborhood north of that, because on my way here I drove through, on Saturn's side, I came down to Saturn from... from Keene on Cleveland, just because it was worthwhile of you on the way here. They already have traffic calming devices with some of the islands and the narrow curbing so that cars are limited to go

Do you want speed bumps or something?

I think there's some things that could or should be considered that would help enhance safety that are abutting this property so that people are already going slow before they go up the street because they already have it further up the street. There's at least two of those going between Cleveland and the north side of this property at Rainbow that have the narrowing of the yacht, the circle in the middle.

I would be curious if this does go through that they do a sound study after just to see if it is really impacted the sound or not.

Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. So those are my general comments on this. I'm not kind of suggesting which way I'm voting on this. I'm looking at it from the standpoint of just some of the factors that I'm looking out there. It always does irk me, being that my daytime job is a lawyer, even though I don't go to court anymore, that expert testimony isn't met with expert testimony. And that always makes it difficult for me because that burden of proof to me is significant. Those are my thoughts on it. If anybody else wanted to share any thoughts or if anybody wanted to make a motion one way or the other on this, then we can go from there. Did you have any comments to make? I'm gonna go around and ask just so I don't miss anybody. Diane?

One of the comments I have is could we request that they do like a pre-application meeting or something like that with DOT to see if they could put cuts in front as opposed to putting the cuts on the side.

If DOT comes back and says... To add that as a condition. I mean, that changes the whole...

Right. So at this point, they've provided a plan to you of what they want that development to be. Staff's analyzed that and said either it has or hasn't met the criteria, and that's before you right now to decide. So that would be if you... conditioning it would be a redevelopment of the project that they've presented to you. They certainly can do that. At any point, the applicant can always withdraw their application and change it. But at this point, they've put forth to you what they want you to consider in approving.

Can Pete answer the question? Before we go to Peter, let me ask you, before we go any further on that part of it, just so the board is clear in terms of our options, We either make a motion to vote to approve it, make a motion to deny it. Could we also, on our own, ask that it be continued to get more information with some of the stuff that we're looking for? Or are we limited to approve or deny?

I believe you're approve, deny, and you might be able to approve with conditions. I'm just curious because... Let me look at your code real quick. Thanks.

I'm not saying that they have to redevelop the project, but if FDOT is so stringent about not allowing cutouts anymore on Gulf to Bay because of whatever reason, if they have like a pre-app. Well, I'm going to defer to him.

He feels that it's feasible. So I'm not going to, don't take my comment on that.

We don't know for sure. Put it that way. But if we have a pre-app with them and they say, no, absolutely not. They can't do it. That to me is also tells the neighborhood behind there that everything has been done to not impede the neighborhood.

I think the problem with that is that the plan changes if you do that, so it couldn't happen. Just please wait. But I think that the plan changes if that were the case. So we wouldn't be approving the plan they gave us, and that's not really a condition that we can impose.

Okay. I just was curious.

I appreciate that. We'll come back to some other stuff while she's looking at that. Did you have any comments?

Yeah. I just want to point out this property is zoned commercial. There's a lot of uses. If you look at the table, what could be allowed there that, in my opinion, would be worse than the car wash. As far as access goes, I think there are definite advantages to using the existing roads for access, although it does impact the neighborhoods. Another curb cut on Gulf to Bay would be disruptive, I think, to traffic on Gulf to Bay. And I think for circulation, I think it's always good to have alternate accesses as well. And I think the orientation and the sound mitigation that the applicant has proposed has done a lot, I think, to mitigate the effects of this use. And, you know, again, there's other uses of the site that I think would be more disruptive. This use would close at 7 p.m. There's uses that would not, that would stay open. So, you know, in my opinion, I think they've done a good job. Unfortunately, the zoning... is what it is so michelle

Yeah, I think that the application is very complete and does address the noise, the traffic, the compatibility. I appreciate the testimony today so much, but our hands are somewhat tied in what we can consider in our position. So it is kind of a struggle for us up here with not having expert testimony to counter the expert testimony. I would like to ask, Chair, if we are allowed to add any conditions at all, like speed bumps or sidewalks for safety for the residents. I know she's looking some of that up right now.

Did you have some feedback for us?

I did. I did. So in looking at your code, it provides that you may grant approval. You can grant approval subject to specified conditions, or you can deny the application. With regard to continuances, that's something that's normally asked either of the staff or the applicant in continuing it.

Thank you. I appreciate clarifying that so we all kind of know where we stand. So a condition, and that's a question we would have to ask, I think, of staff more specifically than you, but the condition of doing some traffic calming type something in the street as a condition, that's something that we would, I don't know to what extent we can add that as a condition or not. I don't either.

That would be something I would like to get clarified if we can.

Okay. Would you like a clarification from that on whether that would be a permissible condition for us to add that there needs to be some traffic calming in the streets abutting it so that way as they go north on that street and they go into that there is not, it adds an element of safety for the pedestrians and so on.

I will speak from very general history of the board. Sometimes questions like this have come up and the board has chosen to have a short recess so that staff could have a little bit of discussion with the applicant. or just internally, and we are fortunate we do have a representative from Public Works here. We're always thoughtful in the conditions that we would recommend or be amenable to be added. there are times that the board adds additional conditions so just kind of a history it's you know it's not unheard of that the board has has offered up additional questions like this um sometimes we have helped towards let me do it this way then um i'd like to get

feedback from these two gentlemen. I think I'm going to come to you last because you have some good stuff. Not that you don't, but I really started to hear what you had to say, so I think that would be impactful. That way you hear all of our comments, and then we'll take a brief recess, and then we'll come back to it. Aubrey, did you have any...

No, I just, like I said, I mean, I was concerned about the traffic and the sound to the extent that if they claim that this is not adding any more sound, I would like that confirmed at the end. That's all. Okay.

Your comments. Well, I'm frustrated that this is always on the consent agenda, every project that we see, and I don't think there's a ton of internal thought or pushback given to the applicant relative to the site plan and the trip count that's gonna be generated on the secondary roads. And there's no sidewalks in this neighborhood. Everybody has discussed it's a residential neighborhood. They live here. I think sidewalks should have been a condition of the consent agenda where y'all pushed that for the neighborhood itself. There's right away there for it, and it's a safety issue now, and it'll be a bigger one once this gets approved if it does. The other point is, you know, I know that it's easier to get two uses on this site by taking that curb cut off of Gulf to Bay, and that may be an issue with DOT. I don't know. You know, the staff could have pushed this where they have the entrances closer to Gulf to Bay. I know DOT is always an issue. They want them farther back. But they're just pushing all the traffic to the back towards the residential uses that sit on commercial property. I think that's another item that should have been looked at up front. And the last point is this comprehensive infill where the code doesn't apply. and i'm going to ask staff does this is this the whole gulf to bay corridor is comprehensive infill now the city of clearwater is it all comprehensive infill where we negate zoning and the codes that are required today i'm

Comprehensive infill redevelopment project is a separate use and applicants are able to request it as the applicable use for any project and staff evaluates based on those appropriate criteria.

So zoning doesn't apply relative to the conditions within the code in terms of being perpendicular and parallel to Gulf to Bay for the car wash. That's not a consideration is what you're telling me.

It's considered a separate use and that's consistent with any other application brought before the board as a comprehensive infill redevelopment project.

Thank you. One comment I have on what you just said, though, is I'm looking at the rule maps image, which is not that old because it looks the property has not it's not really being used in this picture. There are no curb cuts on the present. Correct. So. Well, I understand that, but I'm saying on this property, they're not giving up a curb. There is no curb cut on Gulf today. They would be applying for a new one, just so we're... Correct. Okay. Okay. I'm just... It sounded like you were saying they were... No, there's not one now. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. All right.

That's all I wanted to clarify. So the question is whether we can add a condition, and we'll take a brief recess, maybe five minutes, maybe get drinks of water for staff to confer, and maybe confer with the applicant about whether... there could be a condition added. There would be consideration being given to condition added for traffic calming and or sidewalks.

Yeah, and my only concern with that is I think we're going to have to be more specific because there are options there.

I don't want to limit the options. If they're going to have to talk about it, let's give them all the options they've got.

I don't think an applicant would agree to sidewalks throughout the neighborhood.

I'm not suggesting that they would, but I'm also... So these improvements would be off-site, right?

Yeah, I mean, if it's traffic coming, it clearly would be on Saturn Avenue and Mars Avenue. And if it's a sidewalk, I don't know how far. They already got sidewalks on what they're proposing, so I don't know that there's much more that we could do there. But since it was brought up by one of the board members, I wanted to address it and leave it. Since you're going to talk anyways, tell me what you think is feasible. If you can have a conversation with the applicant.

and uh we'll take a break for cs3 14 according to my phone time so real quick i'm so sorry to interrupt but just very quickly as i understand it the board's concern is with potential safety and you would like the city staff and the applicant to talk about that and to come back to you as to whether or not there are any conditions that can be added to address this. Yes, correct. Okay. Thank you.

You're welcome. Specifically safety on Gulf to Bay or all roads? On Mars and Saturn. Mars, Saturn. Okay, all roads.

Okay. On Mars and Saturn. Gulf to Bay, they're wadding the sidewalk already. The plan is there. There's no curb cut on Gulf to Bay. I think the pedestrian issue is more and the safety issue for the folks who are maybe not in vehicles on those roadways is going to be on Saturn and Mars.

Okay, because there's no current like sidewalks on those two roads.

And no speed bumps.

And the nearest traffic calming device is at Rainbow and Saturn. I don't know if there's one on Mars. I didn't come down Mars. I came down Saturn. I didn't have time to drive through all of them. So give some discussion. It's 315. We'll take a break for 10 minutes. Start 325. Okay? Rest assured. Procedure we're going to do is I'm going to reopen the meeting so the staff and the applicant can address what we asked them to consider and discuss. And I'll ask staff, Ms. Matske, if you can give us a summary of what you think. And then we'll go from there. Are there any conditions that you think you can propose that would kind of appease our concerns?

Staff did work with the applicant, and they're written down that direction. So I'll ask Mr. Kozak to read that in as he was described.

The applicant has agreed to the following. Condition 28, the property shall provide to the city satisfaction on-site signage consistent with MUTCD standards that address safety concerns commonly associated with increased traffic in the residential neighborhood. Condition 29, the property shall provide directional signage and pavement markings to direct traffic exiting the site to Gulf to Bay Boulevard. Condition 30, the project shall provide sidewalk extensions to rainbow drive along the east side of Saturn and the west side of Mars if there's adequate available right away if feasible and to the satisfaction of public works.

And what I would be happy to do is put that in layman's terms. And, of course, then we could reread anything specifically. So regarding the onsite signage related to, yeah, onsite signage related to traffic concerns, that would be anything that is, of course, meets official standards that we're all held to for signage, but kind of reflecting that you're entering a residential neighborhood, whatever the official signage could be, we'll work with them on that. regarding the directional markings that would be to strongly encourage the turns back to gulf to bay um but it would not include you know formal um barriers to to fully prohibit it so the thought is in conjunction with signage and pavement markings and consistent with the traffic study the the vast majority of people will go to gulf to bay and then for the sidewalks that is something that the applicant has has volunteered however the city side we did not study that we don't know what utilities are there we need to speak with the city engineer further so that is where we have some caveats on behalf of the city because there could be something that we're just unaware of right now that would potentially make it infeasible.

So particularly that third one then, the last condition that was added. That one is really subject to whether it can be done more than anything else. The other ones, there's degrees of what can be done. The third one is there might be utilities there. There might not be enough right of way between the curb and the lot line to allow for a sidewalk and those kinds of things.

But should all of those things marry up, then the applicant would incur the cost to do that and they volunteer to do that.

And the applicant accepts those conditional conditions?

Yes, we are acceptable to those conditions.

Thank you. All right. Thanks. Then I'm going to go ahead and close the public part.

I'm going to put the affected parties if they have any comment on the condition.

So the parties who had party status, there's two, three, four here still. Do you have any conditions or questions on these conditions that were just mentioned? address. If you do, you have to come to the microphone so we can hear you. If not, you can just shake it.

Yeah.

Easter 8, yes. It's the only thing that's open for right now. Okay. Okay. Mr. Soriano, again, either of the, Mr. Jeffries? No? Okay. All right. Then I'm going to go ahead and close the public side of it again and We have a staff report now with three additional conditions, and we've had discussion. Does anybody have a motion on this matter, FLV2026-02005? Remember, our options are approve, approve with conditions, and we have these three additional conditions, or deny. Is that what our motion would be?

I'll make a motion. Go ahead. To approve case number FLD 2026-02-005. based on the evidence in the record, thank you, including the application and staff report and hereby adopt the findings of fact and conclusions of law stated in the staff report with the conditions of approval as listed in the staff report and as amended in the discussion. Okay.

Do we have a second on that motion?

Second.

Motion made and seconded. Do we have any further discussion amongst the board on that motion?

I'd just like to make a comment. I think we've identified some issues that are larger than this specific project that would have applied to any commercial development. And I don't know what the answer is, but, you know, it may warrant the city looking into addressing these at some later point. But, again, beyond the scope of this project.

Okay.

All right. Then there are no further discussion. All in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? Motion carries. All right. That concludes that matter. Next on our agenda for today are the director's items.

All right. So before we adjourn, two brief announcements. Well, one will be slightly longer. First, there will be no community development board meeting in September. We did not receive any resubmitted applications for consideration. So no board action is needed, and we have nothing else to bring forward to you just as FYIs or anything. So the next scheduled meeting will be in October, and we'll provide all the usual notices and agenda material.

Here or someplace else?

In advance. Here is the best of my knowledge.

Just curious about where we're timing on that. Yes. It will be here, so by then we should be in a new city hall. You've got to get the bugs worked out, the technology set up and everything. I get it. Okay. And we definitely don't want to see anybody get a bug.

All right.

And so the second thing, actually, I'm probably going to read more of my notes than I usually would because I try to work it out. But the timing on this is actually because there's no September meeting, the timing is kind of important. So this is in advance of October. So on October 1st, Mayor Rector will be presenting a proclamation declaring October 2026 Community Planning Month in Clearwater. So... community planning month recognizes the people who helped shape the places we live work and spend time together it's also a chance to celebrate our residents and community leaders who take part in the work that guides clearwater's future So that includes the members of this board who, as you know, you volunteer your time to listen to our residents carefully consider proposed developments and help guide how our city grows and takes different shapes. Your work, I really wrote this without this project in mind, your work affects things people experience every day from the look and feel of our neighborhoods to the preservation of historic places and planning new homes and businesses. The decisions and recommendations you make help connect individual projects with the community's broader vision for Clearwater's future. It's also an opportunity for us to recognize our development review planners. We have a couple left. They work with our residents, property owners, businesses, and other city departments to guide projects through the review process and help ensure that development fits within Clearwater's plans and standards. and then while not present today our long-range planners help the city look beyond those projects in front of us today and prepare for the years ahead and y'all are a vital part of that process as well though we haven't been in front of you just recently so in long-range planning their work helps clearwater plan for our changing needs so some things that we might be bringing forward based on today including housing transportation redevelopment neighborhood character and historic preservation So good planning is ultimately about making thoughtful choices today that will serve the community well tomorrow. Board members and planning staff have different roles, but each contributes to a Clearwater that is welcoming, well-planned, and prepared for the future. So we look forward to the mayor's presentation on October 1st at their council meeting. And in advance of Community Planning Month, I did want to thank you for your time. your care, the expertise, the questions that you ask, that's ad libbed, and the public service that you give to the city every day. So thank you very much for that a month in advance.

Thank you. Thank you. Very nice to hear all that.

But if anyone wants to join us on October 1st, you're more than welcome to come. Those are given at the beginning of the council meetings.

So before we adjourn, usually be board members. One thing I wanted to bring up to the board and also for you, Lauren, in case there's any feedback or input, your information materials, you want to give me the, um, the Clearwater neighborhood coalition asked me to present on what we do as a board at their September meeting. And so far, I don't have any conflicts. I told them, yes, I blocked it off. But here's a closing I might have to go to Atlanta for. So if that happens, I may end up missing it. But at the end of the day, it sounds like it's going to be brief, and they want to know a few things. And just so this board knows, if anybody has any input about something you think that we should be telling folks in the community, feel free to email me. I won't have to do anything with any cases in particular, but I will be talking about how the hearings generally go. I'm going to be talking about expert witnesses and I'm going to be talking about party status so people understand what those mean. And I think that might be helpful, but if somebody thinks I shouldn't say something or something I should add, feel free.

That's been something that's going on for years. I mean, every time these people come up here and they're all emotional and they don't realize, yeah, we hear you, but we can't do much.

I agree, and that's why I kind of welcome the opportunity to speak. And so I thought I'd share with you all that I'm going to be doing that, but if anybody has any input they want me to share or if staff thinks it's not a good idea, let me know. You can hold my own, but it should be interesting to do. And it would be great to kind of share my perspective of what we do on the board as compared to their conversations they have with staff.

I have no concerns at all. I welcome hearing what you learn from it. Maybe we can talk about it at the following meeting. Just since I'm ad-libbing today anyway. Things that came to mind is after some challenging cases many years ago, I believe you were still on board. Some of you may have been also. the city published a citizen's guide to the Community Development Board. We've had conversations since then about kind of revisiting it to make it a 2.0 version. You know, it's definitely like, to the letter of the law, what it means. But sometimes now there's a lot of different tools that are available to help us still keep that information while making it more understandable to the general public. So that was definitely something I heard again, which is a good reminder of those types of efforts that we do. We should always be revisiting and fine tuning the tools that we have that do try to bridge that gap between us who sit here every month and look at these things and even then you know practitioners it's it's difficult rules change things like that but bridging that gap between us and the public because they do play a vital role in this as well so i'm grateful that you're going let me ask you a question about that and not to make this longer than it's already been but that you know it would seem to me that

a good practice if you don't already do it would be that if you get an email like in this one we heard today without talking about the facts of the case there were emails from at least two people that i saw and i saw them early on because i was copied on them that the first communication you get from somebody in the neighborhood objecting to it they should be sent the pdf of that understand, is that something that's happening? It's probably a worthwhile thing to do, because all of a sudden, you've given them a tool that they don't need. Just because it's on a website somewhere doesn't mean they're going to find the website and go to it. But if it's a PDF, thanks for your interest. We're going to get back to you on that. Here's something that explains how the board works. Just put it in your hands as a response to the first communication would be actually, I think, really helpful to a lot of these folks. 100%.

I think that's a very good suggestion. I know that our staff does share the link to it, you know, frequently. The link is fine.

But as long as they're getting access, they're being told, directed someplace where they can see it as compared to saying there's resources available to understand how this works.

Of course, but again, it's a good reminder because sometimes, you know, we get to responding to the question at need without taking that extra step. So I don't want to... insinuate the staff's not doing it by any means, but things like this. These are the types of meetings that we go back and talk through after, and that's absolutely a very valid and helpful suggestion. So something that's an easy change and just reminder to everyone on the team as well.

So can I make a suggestion or offer this as a gift? Could we print another clear or neighborhood coalition as a as like I don't know how many neighborhoods are represented, but there's a lot like 50, 25 to 50.

I haven't been to one of the meetings before, so I'm looking forward to things a lot.

They have a good turnout.

They're doing a lot. So what would be the harm in passing that booklet out when you speak to each neighborhood chair? At least they have it, maybe.

If you were to let me, just send me a note reminding me when the meeting is, I can see.

I'll say it now so we'll be on the record. Pretty certain I put it on my calendar. Someone help me.

I'm going to write it down.

It should be on my work calendar right now. To add into that, maybe your IT department can just automatically. Monday, September 14th.

Monday, September 14th, CNC. A few things that we do, I mean, not that everyone reads the full agenda. Our cover sheet has a link to it, but it does get sometimes buried in there. ALBA manually adds some things for those who come in person that actually were developed as part of that effort. And that's the order of the meeting and some of the cheat sheets. These were things that came from that effort because we know, you know, It's a lot, you do a great job, Chair, reading it into the record what the effort is, but.

But I just wanted to share that if you were to go ahead and put Citizens Guide, it's the first thing that comes up on our city website. So in our search box, just put Citizens Guide, And the Community Development Board Assistance Guide shows up. And it's shared that way as well.

That's great. Well, I'm glad. I was on the board when we talked about doing that, and that was done. I'm glad to see that it's still being done. We thought that there were a lot of people showing up. And they couldn't find the information before. Now they don't know where to look, but we know it's out there, which is a great thing. This will help as well.

I think to your point, you know, many people here, this was their first time interacting with the city of Clearwater or with our board, and so they wouldn't necessarily know to search for Citizens Guide unless someone's like, hey, check out the Citizens Guide. I think we usually try to do a little bit of additional, information during community planning months so this could be something we could do just help generally with a you know a facebook post or social media like a did you know that there's information it's timely with with the month of october it would give us a little bit of you know relevant content so um that's another thing that i'll discuss with public communications in addition to putting in a print order

I was kind of thinking, too, it might be really helpful to include something in that guide if it's not in there already, like specifically what people are allowed to testify and speak on and what they're not. So that way when they come up here, they know exactly what they can. Because there are a number of things they can talk about. But just when it comes to something like noise or traffic, as you all know, it's like that's a big no-no. So maybe that's something we could take a look at, too, with our legal counsel, Jennifer Cowan and her team, and see what they think about that.

That's great. That would be helpful, though I do think some of that, they have to learn on the fly, it would go over their head. They're going to come to the meeting. You can tell to them in advance. And just like I guided the one lady, that's a great cross-examination question. Why don't you leave it for that? Because that's really when it should have come in, and it would have taken us down a rabbit hole. So I didn't feel like I was giving her advice or helping her. I just said, do it at this time, and we'll come back to it. I'm glad she – because I've had – I've done that before, and people have said, no, don't worry about it. And I'm like, okay, then you're not going to get the outcome you're looking for. So I was pleased that she got back up and spoke again. Yeah. Okay.

If I can, one more thing, not an announcement. And of course, it closed my screen, so I can't actually pull it up in the code. But the Community Development Board as a board has the ability to recommend changes or things like that. If at a future meeting you wanted to have something more of a work session on any topics, please let us know in advance. You know, city council sometimes asks us for updates on or conversational presentations at the end of the meeting, so if there's things like that that you as a board would like to to it's your time also so um you know we we try to just bring our projects and things like that to you like we normally would but if there are topics that you want to discuss as a board we can we can take some time and do that as well so excellent does anybody else have anything if not then we are adjourned thank you everybody thank you