Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Welcome to the Town of Cicero Planning Board meeting. Would you please join us in the Pledge of Allegiance? Chuck, could you lead us out, please?

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you. First order of business is the approval of our July 15th minutes. Any questions or comments? Do we have a motion to approve? Motion to approve. Do we have a second? Second. Jim? Yes. Chuck? Yes. Mary?

Yes.

And I vote yes. Minutes have been approved. Now we will open the meeting to public comment. If there's anybody here in the audience that would like to address the board on any active application, you can do so now. Given nobody's approach, we'll close the public input. And we will move on to the first agenda item. This is a public hearing. This is for a two-lot subdivision. This is part of the next item, which is the proposed 74-unit apartment complex. Is the applicant here for the subdivision? Good evening.

I know we just received the map. Yes, you did a couple days ago. Mark Pallott with the Dakota Partners. Yes. Thank you.

There it is. And so this is just a formality of we're just taking this one lot and separating it from the one piece.

Yeah, taking that lot six out of the overall parcel because previously that was a taxable parcel. For some reason, they put it back together, and we're just taking it back apart now. So I think all that's left now is for Mark to review it. I'm not sure he's had a chance to.

Excuse me. I started today that I'm going to have some comments today. Not a problem. Not a problem.

So we'll conduct the public hearing. We'll leave it open, I assume, after this evening, and then we'll bring it up next time. We'll bring it up next time. Okay. Any questions from the board at this point? All right. Let's see if there's anybody here from the public that would like to address.

Yes, Mark.

Is there anybody that would like to address this particular item for the public hearing?

i'm not sure if this is the right time but um the public hearing for this comment but um when they were before us the last time there was some controversy over the parking issues and and the space of how many apartments and i just wanted the board to be aware that we've paid so much money for our recent comprehensive plan that i hate to see so many concessions being made at this time right off the gate with our building just starting where it might be in the near future so i was just hoping you could take that all into consideration that i don't think we should be making those major concessions yet thank you thank you

And would anybody else like to address the board? All right. So at this point, we'll keep the public hearing open until the next meeting or next time they come in. And we'll move on to the site plan review continuation. So come on back up.

Good evening. Thank you. My name is Jeff Davis with Barclay Damon here in Syracuse. You met Mark just a few minutes ago. He'll be up here from Dakota Partners. Andrew Burns and Mira Mejabowski. I think I got that correct with Pacero and Associates. So they'll each come up and kind of talk about civil and the architectural comments. I just wanted to start the meeting and just, you know, we've gone through the most recent round of comments I think we've addressed. Most, if not all of them. Mark did spend the last hour or so meeting with the fire department on some specific comments and some requests there. Again, we can meet those requests. I did want to remind the board, though, and the public, obviously, that this is an affordable housing project. And, you know, with that comes some things. And so, yes, we are requesting some modifications from the design standards. But these are rents that are set by New York State. There's a competitive process that you go through with New York State in order to have projects qualify and receive tax credits that can be applied for these projects. And they look at things that, for instance, one of the comments on You know, washer and dryers in units. You know, that's something that actually New York State does not think belongs in an affordable housing complex. That means the people need to buy their own washers and dryers in order to make them work. Instead, they want them on a floor, for instance, in the facility, but not in each individual unit. It goes through the credit process that they go through and that they look at. And then for the developer, the rents are fixed. This is not a market rate housing project and it will not be. And so there are certain things where we believe we've met the standard, the spirit of the code. There are certain things we're asking for a little bit of work. And obviously, there are some items where we've gone as far as we can go, because at some point in an affordable housing project with fixed rents, the product just doesn't happen. So, and that's, you know, we hear that in the community we hear at public hearings that are held by the county legislature in this county of the need for affordable housing projects. This is one that has come here and I think can be a great one here in this community. So, thank you for your time, and I'll ask Mark to kind of come up and kind of go through the civil comments, and we'll kick it off from there.

All right.

Thank you.

I'm going to pretend I'm going through the civil comments. Really? Andy's going to go through the civil comments.

Instead, uh, Andrew burns pastor associates. Civil engineer for the project just want to provide an update and some of the modifications and back and forth we've had as far as it results to engineering comments made and received to date. We have responded to the first round of comments that we received back in June. We felt that they were minor in nature, take no concerns with any of the requests or changes that were made in that letter. Those have since been revised and resubmitted. While we haven't received a formal second response or second comment letter regarding engineering, we did speak on the phone about some outstanding comments, which were Again, in our opinion, minor revisions to some notes and call outs on the utility plans, and then adding some additional sanitary pump information to our engineers report just to make sure that we have the capacity there. Some revisions to our plan since our original application is we have reduced from 74 to 71 units for for funding purposes. Um, that being said, we have increased the parking to 117 spaces, which results in a ratio around 1.65. so above that 1.5 that we originally proposed. We also relocated the dumpster from the Western entrance to the rear of the site to provide additional screening. I mean, we know there's been a comment or a request made by the reviewer for an additional crosswalk on that Western entrance across Mets or court. And I believe the applicant is open to providing that, assuming we can make 88 grades work. And we think that we can do that. So that's a change that's ongoing and we're incorporating into the plans right now.

Thank you. The next thing we wanted to kind of touch upon was the architectural comments. But before I jump into that, I did have a meeting this afternoon with the fire chief. He sent out an email to everyone. I'm not sure if you guys saw the email with a list of questions and comments. So I met with him, kind of went through every single one with him, and I believe, I know Steve spoke with him, I believe he's satisfied with our reply back to him. Some of the comments were there was EV chargers for cars that are facing the building, right in front of the building itself. He wanted me to put them on the backside, which we'll do that. We'll put them on the backside. At the main entrance from the parking lot, there is a series of cabinets that he thought those were the EV cabinets where you put the batteries inside where they charge. That is not the location of that right there is for packages, just regular packages like Amazon type deliveries. That's at the front entrance. The actual chargers are at the end of the building, on the west end of the building, outside, away from the building, by the sidewalk. So we went through that. He's comfortable with that right there. I did ask him if he had the cut sheet I provided. He didn't. So I can ask Steve. He can send that to the chief. He would like it. Um, that was 1 of the questions he asked about the fire hydrant. There's only 1 existing fire hydrant out there and per code you need to have 400 feet of hose length around the building and it meets code around the building. He requested that if it's possible to add a 2nd hydrant on the street side. So it's a public fire hydrant at the other entrance on the East side. And we'll do that as well. We'll add a hydrant to that location. So he'll have one at either end, which will work better for him at the end of the day. The last one, I believe is the last one, if I'm not mistaken, but is he had concerns about the attic space of the building itself. And I was informed by my architect that within that attic space, we're going to have sprinklers in this space. So it's fully protected within that area because he had concerns. If a fire gets up there, it could race through due to all the open space and the oxygen. and that no one would know about it so uh it will have uh sprinklers up there and i think that was it was there any other ones too okay so with the sprinklers he was satisfied with not having smoke a fire detection system up yeah because the sprinklers themselves will be the detection system then they'll set up the alarm within the building itself and the fire stop walls he's comfortable without having them with that because it has a fully sprinkled space up there the whole building will be sprinkled by commercial system

Right.

Okay. He also mentioned to me that the water main has got to be eight inches.

Well, the water main to the building itself is a six-inch coming into the building, servicing the building. He was concerned about the water for fire protection-wise. If there was a hydrant within the property itself, it should have been an eight-inch. But we don't have one in the property because we met the requirement by code having the 400 feet. And that's why we added a second...

So it's a six-inch, you've added a second hydrant, and he's comfortable with that?

He's comfortable, because whatever's in the street's in the street. I mean, I don't recall what if it's a six- or eight-inch in the street, but having the second hydrant there, he's much more comfortable with it.

So, Mark, I think what you're proposing is a public hydrant connected to the existing water main additionally, so that would be a public hydrant?

Yes, right off there, in which he would prefer it be a public hydrant, because he knows it's going to be maintained, which is good. Anything else?

So are you done with your half? Because I thought there were a lot more questions.

No, I'm done with the fire chief. I wanted to get into the architectural comments. We just received these not that long ago, but I wanted to go through those with you as well. So Mira, you want to?

You're going to do the first one.

OK, the first one here is in reference. Do you guys have a copy of the architectural comments?

Do you have renderings that were sent with this submission? Like 3G views?

Whose renditions? Your renditions?

Yeah, right there.

Our architectural engineer is here as well. Is that the one dated the 28th?

Yeah, this is dated the 28th.

No, she doesn't distribute them. Yeah. Yeah. I print them. I'm all set. OK. We all set, everyone?

Jim, you need a copy? Yes.

Do you have one? Thank you. Thank you very much.

All set? Read it. Perfect. So the first comment is in reference to the facade, which, again, it comes with a drawing, which was part of the zoning codes itself, which talks about every 60 feet you want to transition, you know, two feet in or two feet out. It really doesn't matter. It's just a transition to make it undulate. And, you know, once it goes two feet, once you go 60 feet, you do that transition, it doesn't tell you it has to be two feet, three feet, 100 feet. It can't be 100, it has to be 60 at the most. But what we've designed is you can... Every 60 feet, you got to go two feet. Yeah, you got to do two feet one way or the other. So what our design is, you can see in the elevation there... What we have is these piers that come out two feet. They wrap up and around the gable ends of it and it comes down the other side. So it frames this whole thing and it's a different color. So how we treated that architecturally was to create this kind of picture frame of that area and we bumped it out with the piers two feet. And that's how we dealt with it in that respect.

So what we were looking at is the the spirit of this code requirement. The idea of requesting two-fits stepping in or out was to create some to create some changes in elevation so that building didn't look so boring so that there was a little interest in it and that would you would see that by the Shadows of the parts of the buildings that were stepping in or stepping out so we are Solving that problem or meeting that requirement by different tool instead of if you look at this building It doesn't look like a continuous building if you look at this rendering but all the peers create a shadow which Actually, not every 60 feet. It's more like 40 to 50 feet that And those peers and different colors create interest on the facade of the building so it doesn't look so monotonous and so long. So we think that by doing that, we are actually meeting the requirement, the spirit of the requirement of the code.

Anthony, your thoughts on that?

So the code reads that the wall plane should have a minimum depth change of two feet. And you're already going through the expense of doing a one foot offset, creating those outside corners to create these conditions. So to meet the actual code requirement by extending an additional foot, you've gone through the construction expense of pulling it out already. So really it's just going to be the, you know, the area factor in building the additional square footage, if it means receding the adjacent walls to achieve that change in wall plane, then that would be up to you. But I think the comment the code reads is the change of wall plane, not necessarily the pier or that kind of surrounding element.

Which is what the illustration and the code shows, which is what the illustration shows.

I'm an architect as well. I kind of disagree with that in respect. We are achieving that, meaning the two feet comes out. After it moves two feet out or two feet in, it doesn't state it has to go a certain distance before then, you know, it just says it has to go two feet out. It says wall plane. It's a plane. It comes out, it returns, it comes back. It's a plane there. Now, again, we've treated it as that, coming back and bringing it back again and in. So that's one issue. The issue of saying you can move that area out another foot, I can't do that. Because what it does to me, it takes my construction type from a 5B to a 5A, which will add millions of dollars from the standpoint of... Right now, just from a square footage cost, it's costing me about $230 a square foot to build. And then I got to increase all the fire protection, all the ratings of everything on that facade and those areas because I'll be over the square footage that is required for when you do get 5A. So right now my 5B is where I can make it work financially and make it work architecturally.

That's why the second option would be to take the other wall plane that's already in and bring it in an additional foot and reduce this.

So this is, as it was stated, this is affordable housing and we're meeting state's requirement. They have design guidelines with very specific dimensions for the bedrooms, for the living rooms, for everything else. Our units are very small. If we start stepping And we will not be able to meet those requirements. So we are kind of here between a rock and a hard place.

The state might have their concerns, their standards. We have standards. Our standards don't get thrown out just because the state doesn't want to do it or you can't afford it. Understood. And when I look at the design, it clearly shows what we're talking about, moving the wall back, what he's describing. So whatever you need to do to make that happen, I don't want to see this based on our design standards that were established by the town board and other properties because the state says they can't afford to do it or they don't want it. It's the town standards that you need to meet.

somehow understood understood and again i think we are meeting that i don't when i read this my two feet i step out two feet okay and that comes out two feet and then it comes across and it returns i mean if it returned if i stepped it out and returned it five feet down it still it still meets the requirement it went out two feet it went came back and returned it doesn't have to go 60 feet. There's nothing to say that when you make that transition, either in or out, because it's really, it's one or the other, it doesn't really matter. Correct. So it doesn't state that, okay, fine, once you do that, you have to go a certain distance to bring it back. You just can't go over 60 feet. And that's what we did. And we just tried to create this architecturally, you know, by that. So what it does, it just... Don't do it. It does come out two feet.

That little wall that you're building there doesn't do it from my perspective and my engineer's perspective. I think we're going to have a lot of these situations. Understood. Neil, as we go through this, when it's time to make a recommendation to the town board, whether it's for approve or deny, I think we should include these discrepancies. The town board is the one that created the regulations, right? And we implement that. Understood. And I don't want to deviate from them a lot because we're going to have other applicants come in and say, well, you let them do it. Kind of like you did with the buildings across the street a few times. Some examples.

What's that? I didn't do those buildings.

No, about how, well, they don't have that, so why do we? Make an example. You folks did that, whether it was you or somebody else. It wasn't, no. Like the windows on the first floor. And those were built before our standards.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, anyways, I think whether we make a recommendation to approve or deny, it should include items where there's a discrepancy like this. So, if I was to move, from my perspective, if I was to move forward with a recommendation for an approval, it would be, however, we don't consider this meeting the standards, and you should take that into consideration. Yeah, a condition. Okay. Or if it's denied, here's why it's denied.

Because right now you're asking me, you're giving your interpretation of your opinion on that to the applicant. And it's up to the applicant who, you know, it's their application to either take what you're saying to that in consideration or they don't. And then ultimately you're going to vote on it.

So this board is making a recommendation. But I'm only one person on this board, too. So I want to hear from the rest of you. Do you understand what we're saying here? So they're building that one board coming out, saying that's a change in plane. Test that down. That's the design.

You got those.

Yeah.

Those are the design standards that many of us participating closely.

And now I was getting what you're saying. Isn't there supposed to be a vertical break to the three story and the design standards, some, something across like A base, a midsection, upper section.

They include their stone base that varies in height. Some are like in that rendering, you see towards the left, the full first story is stone. And then off to the right of the entrance, it's below the window. So they do have that base element that wraps the entire building. Then you have the main body of the section and then the crown at the cap there along the roof edge and the eave. So you do have the three components there along the whole building.

Okay. Is there a difference of opinion on this particular item or is there concurrence?

I agree. No.

But what we're saying is we want to see what our architect is talking about relative to pain difference. However you need to make that happen. I don't know why you just can't take one section and just move the whole thing. You know, adding or subtracting square footage. But I'll leave that to you.

Okay. Should we continue on to the next one? Please.

Okay.

The next one is in reference to be compatible with the neighborhood, basically being, you know, what's around us. So in looking at what's around us, the other two complexes, I believe we are in the sense we have the stone base, we have the vinyl siding, we're sloped roofs, asphalt sloped roofs, so it's compatible for that. You know, so, I mean, architecturally, it's. It is that, I mean, we have our entrance is a little different than their entrances, but it's still it's architecture. Everything's different. It's not a 100%. The cookie cutter is the same.

Well, the only difference with the other buildings is that the other buildings have balconies and those balconies. Create the whole arm. appearance of the buildings. Here, we don't have balconies. They're not in the program. So we had to deal with it somehow. But otherwise, it's practically residential type of construction.

Yeah. When you look at the two of them, there's a significant difference. And I know the balconies play a big part of that, and I'm not saying they have to put balconies up. Yeah, yeah. But there's some peaks in it. There's roof cover on the first floor with porches that are nice.

We don't have to copy them, right? We can do something different, but being in the same character.

Yes. Yeah.

And that's what we are doing.

I think it needs a little more doing. My perspective. Well, this building. I see the adjacent buildings in that second sheet compared to what you're proposing.

You got to keep in mind, you know, those other ones are, one's a senior, one's a vets type building. I mean, you know, these are affordable ones here that are families. Obviously, we look at the safety of the individuals that are there. You know, having balconies, you know, it's just, it's a liability issue.

And I said balconies aren't a requirement. I'm saying dress it up a little bit.

You just said?

Dress it up a little.

I want to tell you that this building has a little bit more contemporary look or more modern look than the other buildings. Other buildings are very traditional and it's where do you want to go? Do you want to keep development of this area all the same? in the old traditional style or you want to develop and move on in the future. You know, time goes on. You cannot do the same thing over and over again. We are giving a step in a little bit different direction that can be used in the future for future development to step on and do something more interesting.

i say something absolutely okay so we just redid our strategic plan for the town i think you should read it um we did a lot of community outreach and had public meetings and the message was we liked our small town feel so not so contemporary i think just one one additional comment i guess

Obviously, design is subjective, and I try not to give any comment on the style of the building. I think the overarching between this comment and the previous comment is that there's a flatness to the design currently with this proposed concept to where you have a really long building that really doesn't have that much depth variation to it that allows for that massing to be broken up as the other two buildings across the street do. And obviously the way that they solved it was with balconies and things like that. There's other ways to solve that but that's, I think, from my perspective, the overarching kind of comment is, how can we create a little more depth relief that allows to break down this massing that, you know, is in so that it doesn't have the perception of one large kind of building.

Yeah, I think that flatten this comment is a good description of that.

Well, that goes more towards the first comment on the second right.

Well, the second, I guess what's different about the adjacent buildings, stylistically, yes, they're from different styles, different eras, whatnot. We're not saying you need to mimic that necessarily, but we're pointing to that to say there is a lot more variation and articulation within the massing of that building that this is not complementary towards. It's a very just... And in terms of massing, it's not...

going to create a really large form that really has very minimal articulation okay let's uh should we move on please okay uh the the third one is a relationship to the first level being 35 percent uh of glass area versus what we have is 19. um i do a lot of projects all over the place where you have these higher percentage of glass is in a mixed use type project. Meaning commercial on the bottom, residential above. Obviously commercial wants to have a lot more glass because they're trying to sell. Obviously we have a privacy issue and we want to make sure that our tenants feel safe within the building. This part of the requirement is really geared towards a mixed-use development that you would probably see in a city downtown where you have a large commercial entity that is there. Adding that type of glass percentage It's not right to the character of a residential building. It just doesn't fit, similar to what you saw in those others two across the street. They don't have a 35. I know it's not at the same time frame, but it's not appropriate for a residential building. It's more appropriate for a mixed-use building. And that's where kind of sometimes when looking at these code items or these items you have here it's really geared towards a downtown central downtown kind of infrastructure and development and how it should play and how it should look. Right now we're at you know that percentage. and we've increased the size of the windows to make them even bigger than we would traditionally do. But if it comes to a point where I just can't go too much bigger than that because I do have other things within the space, that take up room, such as mechanical on the exterior wall, as you can see the louvers, where I wouldn't be able to put any glass there in those areas.

These windows are six feet by six feet. If you think how big your windows in the house where you live are, I'm sure these are the same or even bigger because that's pretty big for a residential window. We can add another window in the community room. That should be no problem, but it's not going to increase percentage much more.

Yeah, it won't bring that much higher at the end of the day. It'll do a benefit to the community room, which should have more windows because it is a gathering space where you would want to have more light when you're doing something like that. So...

I'm going to go back to the fact that we have standards in place. We hired a firm who is very knowledgeable with tons of experience that helped walk us through this process. Perhaps they have it wrong for a use like this.

I think the intent is good. Don't get me wrong. I just think the placement and the location of it is not appropriate. This is a suburb. You're out further in the rural area versus in an urban area where this is really more applicable. It's the same thing when you look at that building elevation, that building rendering that you had in here. That's something you would see more likely in a and a city you know flat roof you got the architecturally you have a base you have the middle you have a a cap it's and that's what you would normally see in a city you know you always have those retail on the base right there a lot of glass but you have like a separation between it and then you get into the residential and you have a cap on the building really geared towards a city or you know a downtown type architecture um i i think it's appropriate Just for that type of location. Again, I'm only basing off my experience and being an architect. That's all.

You know, I've been an architect for 40 years and I've done housing for 20 years. Can you imagine living on the first floor and having windows all the way down to the floor? What does it do to your privacy?

I don't think we're saying that.

Well, that's how you get percentages. That's how the increase to get the size of the windows. Yeah, that's the only way to do it.

Yeah, just one.

You know how it how it's calculated. You can you calculate the square footage.

I understand how it's done. Yeah.

So you need more glass. So how do you get more glass and make your windows bigger?

Just one point to clarify to your earlier point. So in the zoning code, commercial and mixed use requires 50% glass on the first floor. The residential projects only require 35%. So there's already a higher standard for the types of projects he was describing. The residential uses actually had a lower percentage of only 35. And I think we've made some recommendations to the types of spaces or the, you know, Having slider doors or, you know, the community room, the fitness room, the offices, all of those spaces that are non-residential spaces could include some additional.

But it will increase it from 19.7 to 21.

I think your point is, these are your recommendations. I don't disagree with you because they are more of a A non-residential.

I'm not walking around in my underwear in a massive window.

Not that visual.

I know it is. We knew you were not going to hit 35. It would be worse.

We just wanted you to understand that you will not reach 35.

That was my comment.

You can go to 36. Got it. Go ahead. Let's move on.

Trying to find the next one here. Which one is it we're on now? We're on to the next one down here. This is the vinyl siding. Again, I mean, It's different than what's in the neighborhood. We're asked to be part of the neighborhood and think about it. And I'm looking at this from a cost factor myself, not necessarily architectural factor. I got an estimate from my contractor to transition from the vinyl to a hardy plank cement tissues board. That's a $400,000 ad. I mean, It's all these, I went through and had them give me a price for all this stuff. I'm at close to a million dollars to do all that is it to even think about doing it. That right there is a 400,000. It's just extremely expensive to do all that in a building this size. And it meets, I mean, it ties into the other buildings from the standpoint of the finishes and architecturally. So that's, My comment, I guess.

So you're saying there's a question about the final signing?

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know if you have it illustrated here. How about sideways?

Yeah, we got to do vertical and horizontal.

Because I don't see any horizontal.

Yeah, right there. You can see the entrance is there. It goes both ways. The manufacturers are very creative nowadays in how they can do this and how it looks. I mean, it's come a long ways from what you've known and seen in the past.

From a safety standpoint, I'm glad to hear that you're planning on putting sprinklers in the attic and such.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, with today's codes, it makes it it's, it's difficult not to tell you the truth. I mean, it's just too many incidents.

Not long ago, we've had a couple of major fires and, you know, complexes like this, you know, right around the corner and such.

No, I agree. I had a meeting with the fire chief this afternoon, and he went through every single one of them with me, and show me photographs just to make sure I understood.

And so the language. I'm sorry to say on this elevation and I'm looking at the colors relatively close to what you had planned.

Yeah, I mean, obviously those renderings in a sense, you're not 100% but it's close in the family. Yes.

Like a dark brown, if that's what that is.

Yes.

Super dark, I think.

It's a darker color. Yes, much darker.

I see you're mixing up the colors, like trying to emulate the European styling a little bit. I'm not.

It's a little bit of that way. Pardon? I mean, that was not the intent, but yeah, kind of.

We have, you know, a stretch like this, at least three different colors. Yeah, yeah. Repeating some.

Yeah, yeah.

have to work on some of these other details now well the idea of different colors was to separate the building so that it doesn't read so long sure yeah break it up yeah i'm sorry so the uh the language relative to the vinyl sign and i'll just read it the use of vinyl is prohibited yep for principal structure this provision is non-wavable and non-modifiable and just a So that would either be changed by you or that would be part of our recommendation to the town board is to deny or to approve a condition down.

Yeah, understood.

That's a pretty big one for me. Again, these are the stipulations that have been put in place by our elected body townwide. If we start saying, well, it's okay here, the next applicants are going to come in and say, make them do it i think it's pretty important to stick with our standards

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm trying to get as close as I can in these areas.

I understand your perspective, sure.

I'm trying to achieve it, and I think Anthony's been helpful in his recommendations as well to get to those areas. Yeah, good. I'm putting the reality of, can I get this project financially feasible to get it built and get it done? Right now, it's very difficult, to say the least. I understand.

Um, the next one is the washer and dryer. I think.

Yeah, in the sense of the washer and dryers, I think as, uh, attorney Jeffrey, uh, spoke about earlier today, um, had, you know, traditionally. affordable housing developments don't have washer and dryers within the units because you're affordable. And they want to make sure that these tenants have a place within the building that they can do their laundry. And that's why they want us to have a central location because they don't know that most people can't afford, truthfully, to carry a washer and dryer with them where they go or buy new ones to bring in there to those locations. And it's just, it's not, plus it's extremely expensive because I got to add that additional square footage, add all that additional costs into it, where, again, the state, and this is not just New York, it's all the states I've been in for the affordable housing. They want to create a central location so that they guarantee that the people living there have a place. Oh.

You know the central location has to be always under surveillance and also just think it's a three story building that's not for seniors.

Can you do me a favor, move a little closer?

I apologize. This is a three story building, not for seniors. A lot of three story buildings are just walk ups. Young people don't walk enough. They have to be able to walk downstairs to get to the laundry. I mean, I do not understand the advantage of having laundry on every floor versus laundry room. I'm not talking in the units. I mean, there was the proposed to have a laundry room on every floor. Why? Why not just go down? There is an elevator. Go down the elevator.

I'm not going to answer that question because it's obvious. From my perspective, this is why I'm willing to tell the board that they should concede on, but put one on every floor. Not in every unit, one on every floor. I think that's a reasonable compromise. And I'm not going to tell you why I think it's better to have one on every floor than one on the first floor.

Understood. I will look into it and see what I can do, for sure.

Any comments?

Speak up, folks. Is there any... Guidelines about how many washing machines need to be? Yes.

Calculation. Yeah, there is a formula for bedrooms and per unit.

Yes. There's a calculation. There would be a certain number based upon the population within the building.

Yeah, and at least one of them has to be accessible for people in a wheelchair. So front-loaded.

May I ask, which housing program, is it a LIHTC project, is it HCR?

It's a HCR LIHTC.

What percentage?

9%.

9% LIHTC? Okay, so those are the design standards you're following?

Yes. Okay. And again, the Anthony, they will traditionally, they'll fund, as part of the tax credit application, they'll fund a central location. They will not fund individuals within the rooms. Right. Right. I understand. Again. Jamie, anything else on this one? Nope, we're good.

The last one is elevator.

Number seven, is it? Yeah. Number seven we get into is a question about having two elevators versus one. Again, traditionally in a most I would say all I've ever done three story walk ups the traditional have elevators at all. Just recently in I know mass in Connecticut were required to put elevators and just a single two elevators is way overkill in that. It's just not necessary and I don't, you know, it's just very financially wise it's another 300 plus thousand just to get that in there that's all i thought it'd be more yeah thank you i wish it was steeper but that's everything for an assembly with you know the firewalls etc so you are told it will be sorry what's that you are i have one you have one in the building yes absolutely and it's large enough yeah yeah and that elevator is oversized large enough to fit a gurney

Yeah, yeah, it definitely has to be.

Yeah. Yeah, because if we have to add a second elevator in addition to extra cost, we will lose a unit on every floor because it will just take up room. There is no playroom. Yeah. So it's substantial hardship.

I've done some research on this and i would be willing to tell the town board to approve the one elevator understood thank you i appreciate that thoughts team yeah same just three floors if one elevator is needs repair then what do you do people walk

just did 110 floors on the stair master today it's an ideal place for you no don't say that then it's it's like anything we got service agreements with the elevator company they come out immediately i mean it's it's like anything i mean we'll have security at the building if the the thing doesn't work and people can't get in You know, I get the company back out there to fix it. It's the same thing with your HVAC system inside. If it breaks, it's all service contracts. If something goes wrong, nothing's perfect. Nothing's possible.

We're good on that one.

Number eight. Anthony, you're recommending painting everything to match, you're saying?

Just so that the any of the gutters are just matching whatever the adjacent surface there again it's just that they're not okay.

We all set with that we move on to the site comments on there.

Okay, this is confirming that the bike storage room. Allowable for storage of e-bikes and scooters? Yeah, it does. It suggests the chargers need to be put and charged in the outside walkers. And that's it. I forgot to mention, the fire chief did ask, and again, this might be a building code requirement or electrical code requirement, that the bike storage room itself does not have any outlets in it so that kids don't end up bringing their chargers in there and try to charge it. I'm all for that. I just got to take a look at the codes and see what they tell me. That's all. Either way, we'll find some type of provision maybe to make it work for the fire chief. The next item, concrete walkway.

Consider extending the concrete walkway down to the

Heading south down to the loop? I think, I don't know if it was you at previous... Oh, you already did that? Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And then there's new comments here. Anthony doesn't like our exterior package area.

Doesn't say that, but...

But in any case, the package area, one of the reasons why we put it there is speaking to our partners, Vestacorp, as well as our property manager. They wanted to keep it there because it's just from a management-wise of the space inside, it becomes a problem. And these become lockable outside, and that's where they would like to keep it. So it's more of an operational thing versus anything else.

What are your thoughts, Anthony?

I guess the reason for the comment the only concern would be you know deliveries come the code doesn't work on the lockers and I have packages kind of scattered throughout the exterior of the building that are just there because they're not going to take the package and they're dropping it. it's really just more of a visual than anything else to see those doctors on the outside if they're in the interior, then you're not having to worry about those packages being outside.

it was just a consideration and a comment nothing i can rely on the code for you know a certain requirement or anything but so if the combination didn't work yeah how does the other complex next door treat theirs i don't know i don't know to tell you the truth they've been there a while and there's a lot of people that keep buying things

People never stop buying things. I don't know. I really don't know. I haven't gone by. I've been there a couple times, but I haven't gone by. They're asking about their package storage, how they handle it. But, Anthony, I will bring it up to a property manager and see if they have a solution, and I'll let you know. Thank you. Yep. You want to provide additional information on the proposed solar panel area? I believe our roof plan has locations on it. I know our sustainability consultant is running the models on it now. So, uh, it's, uh, it's all part of the taxpayer application that it's all. I don't have that plan with me, but it should have been on the last set that came through.

Do we know, I guess, is this like an optional component that if it's if a, if it's get funded for whatever program you're going through, it'll be implemented like, is this a. A maybe kind of item because it wasn't in the last submission, but we see it in this one.

So that is correct. It wasn't the last mission this one. It will be. So, like I said, we're running the numbers now on it to see because it all it all plays into the numbers as well as the sustainability requirements. These. The affordable housing project versus a market rate project are night and day when it comes to sustainability. The state puts so much more onto these projects that have a higher sustainability. Some states want you to be passive house. I mean, just to get there is extremely expensive. But the way they look at it, we're going to fund it. We want the most out of it versus a market rate. We'll just give you the bare bones meat code. So we're just running the numbers now. I haven't seen anything that was supposed to be out today, but I haven't seen them.

Chairman, I think that was all. Just go back to the parking a little bit. We talked about the code and what it requires. Anthony came up with a compromise that I think works. I just want to make sure the town board is aware of the fact that what they're proposing, the 117 sponsor.

I'm a civil, but we wanted to be, and I gave you a whole study on that, trying to be at the 1.5 ratio. We're now 1.6 something. Anthony did his research on it. I know Mark did his as well, you know, showing that, you know, that ratio is appropriate.

So our code shows it needs 148 right now. I think we're at 117. Yeah. Just want to make sure the town board is aware of that fact.

Okay.

Now I talk about density a little bit. You did send us a letter regarding the conversation that we had last time. Yes, I did. You mentioned a lot of reasoning for housing reasoning, states pushing for it. And I fall back on our guidelines. So with our guidelines, we would be at my numbers. Bear with me one second. A lot of different notes. So you're a 30% increase from what's allowed?

Yeah.

From my...

application standpoint, it would not pencil out financially to get to be awarded tax credits. That's why I needed to be higher in that. Even when I came back with 74, after we started running the numbers and the points, because it's all a competitive application standpoint, I had to lose some units to make it financially work and to be it be higher in the point categories to be successful to win hopefully at a lower percentage it just this project would not get off the ground unfortunately

So when we set our standards, we put a lot of thought into it as well, just like the state does relative to traffic, right, and all sorts of things. You had mentioned at one point the impervious surface. Yes. That's another factor. From my perspective, I think 30% is a big increase. Understood. Are you guys following me on this? Talk about the number of units. They're 30% over what would be allowed in an RM, a residential multifamily. And that's the standard the town established based on our needs, our residents' needs. And I understand your arguments, and they all make sense. But I put my town first. And I think Well, then that you can do it. I think that needs to be adjusted. I think it needs to be around about 15%. That would be my recommendation.

I'm not 100% confident, but I'm pretty close to it that this project would not happen then. There's no way.

Then the town board would have to make a decision whether or not they want the project. Yeah.

It doesn't meet our standard. Do they want affordable housing or not? And to meet the needs of the area as well as the upcoming plant, et cetera, adjacent to you guys. It really comes down to that, I guess. I can run the numbers and do all that stuff again, and based upon my consultant, I needed to be at this number to give us the greatest chance of actually winning and still making it financially work. Noted.

Thoughts? What I'm saying?

I do. I understand what you're saying. i feel the building just too long like one big long building maybe reducing the number of units would help with that that would help a number of things but they have a financial part of it that they have to look at yeah and i get that 100 but it's it looks like a downtown city block

Anything else, Mark?

There's a lot of notes. I appreciate you thinking a lot of notes.

Mark, your comments? Are you squared away?

Yeah, we're pretty much squared away. A few minor comments that, again, I didn't speak with them about. So, yeah, this plan addresses a majority of our comments, again, with the people here.

You mentioned the state DOT, making sure they're comfortable with the traffic.

We've got correspondence indicating they were. Yeah.

Sidewalk's good. That's everything I have, unless you have anything additional.

I don't know. No, I don't.

Anthony, anything else? All set. Thank you. Steve? No, thank you. Yep. Mark?

I guess maybe just talk briefly about next steps. I believe, Steve, or excuse me, the town board has scheduled a public hearing for the 26th. This board meets again on the 19th. So if we wanted to provide a recommendation, that's the next step for this board really, too. make a recommendation to the town board. You've expressed a number of items that you would like the applicant to address. The applicant has indicated that they may or may not be able to address those. So I would say by mid next week, provide a response, provide plans addressing the items that you feel you can accommodate crosswalks, etc. And if there's those that you can't, I guess I would suggest providing more reasoning for that. And then they'll get the board time to review the information that's been presented and begin to craft the recommendation. So if, for instance, the plane of the building, they don't modify their design to address that, your recommendation would be that they should, right? And that's for a number of issues, perhaps. Ammonical acid center, whatever. So I think that's the path forward.

No, I appreciate that, Mark. Yes, that's absolutely correct.

And ultimately, again, the planning board will be making a recommendation to the town board suggested approved plan is presented or approve it with these, or we suggest these modifications. And then it's up to the town board to take that information and your recommendations and listen to the applicant and hold public hearings, listen to the public, and then make a decision one way or the other, whether they want to force them to make modifications or everything. And that goes to the density, all those items that we discussed. So I think that's the chat board. I just wanted to, Dave Kuntz, suggest that if they're not able to turn around in the week and invite you guys to get the information adequately review it. Dave Kuntz, accident just you know, during the hell but that's just the time for people to get the right yeah they can just keep it open so yeah if we want to try to keep this on track and. give the recommendation back to town board prior to their public hearing. I'd say that's the step forward in the process.

It can be done.

It will get done. We'll get that information to Mark and to Anthony and Steve. We'll get those to you. We do need to meet that date. I will do whatever I have to do to get it done.

Very good. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.

They're right back. I'll find mine.

Next item on the agenda is CY Golf Shop. This is a continuation of a site plan for the property at 8457 Burton Road.

Welcome back.

Hi. Good evening. Tim Coyier, INUSI and Romans. And? We were here a couple weeks ago. Going to quick hand out some smaller prints for everybody.

Thank you. We should do it like that. Thank you.

No, these are not the new architectures. It is fresh off the press.

It's just a few hours ago. Don't know just yet.

Thank you, sir.

You went full size of everything. Anything you guys? Sure, we'll share one.

Yeah. Time plan as well? We could probably do. Thank you.

Organize here. Main changes that we've made to the site plan specifically are we removed the 10 parking spaces in the front that we talked about last time. We're showing the northerly entrance being removed over here. We got a letter from the DOT, state DOT. They're okay with that. We were moving this parking over here to satisfy AQEP. And we moved the dumpster enclosure out of the easement area up here, again, to satisfy AQEP. We added some birch trees in front of the new parking area over here. We have added two bump outs on the building facade to address the architecturals, which I'll go down through real quick. So we did add the architectural bump outs here and here, and we're going to paint those black to stand out from the existing gray building. We did, on the new architectural that you should have, we did add overhangs, roof overhangs for the entrances to protect that. That satisfies item number two. We added the light standards to the architecturals here, here, and here to satisfy item number three. Again, the sign standards, we're going to do the sign all separately from the site plan. We do not have the exact location of the utility for the new addition, but they will not be in the front of the building, the side of the building, or on the roof, so that all the mechanicals will be either in the building or behind the building. So I just wanted to make that note. The only other item that we did not satisfy is the item number one, as far as the windows sizes. Again, I think we talked about this a little bit a couple previous meetings. One item that the reason that they wanted them, she wants them smaller is security purposes as far as people breaking in. And the other item for a reason for them being smaller is the sun coming in. And these are going to be the projector screens for the golf simulators. So less light is better for the simulators to keep them visual and transparent. So you can see them better, basically. So those are the reasoning behind the lack of window sizes. Other than that, those are the major changes that we've made. One item that we do have to address is the hydrant out front. We will be putting in a new proposed hydrant. The two hydrants that are north and south of us are just a little too far away for us to meet fire code. But we have contacted Aqua and we will be putting in a new hydrant to satisfy that.

These are real hot off the press. It's real hot off the press. Do I have to talk about the windows? No. But you get the answer already. I mean, based on my last conversation.

Again, the windows on the proposed building, you're talking about these ones, right? Both. Yep. Again, the reasoning she did not want to make them bigger or more is security purposes and light getting into the building.

The natural light leaves a glare on the machines, the sim unit. Look at that window. Sorry, excuse me.

See what's on top of it?

A blind?

Blind. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh. Besides the requirement, besides that fact was the fact of the security. That's the main reason as a security because we've had the break ins two years ago, the previous owner was there. Everything was stolen, nothing was reimbursed or found through the police. So that was a huge thing that had happened and also the motor sports down the road got broken into, that was a year ago. And we've had the cops there already five times for people stealing balls out back, walking around the building, trying to look in the old windows that we had. And there's been a break-in at the Plainville, which is right near us. So there's been lots of break-ins, lots of people walking, riding bikes, just trying to go around every building near us. So we figured if they're up high, They can't reach them, they can't look in, they won't try to break them. Aesthetically, I think it looks good and even and all in that sense, but it's primarily 90% for security purposes.

And there's workarounds for that. In fact, the architect mentioned that.

I saw that part, yeah. I mean, we don't want it to look like a prison with bars on the screens and stuff like that.

Close the blinds.

Blinds, blinds that we can't reach because they're 16 foot up. But if we needed to do more. um would the board be acceptable to eight of the same three by five windows on the front of the new building if we space them perfectly apart like if we did three in the first gray path before the black offset and then we did the one the sign the one the other black offset and three more on that end of the building if we did um Eight total, would that be acceptable just for the look of it and for, you know?

So what I'm going to say is that. What I'm going to tell you is that code requires 50%. I'm going to tell you to go back and work on that.

50% gets an approval.

Anything less than that, there may be discussion. We have a little bit of leeway, right? But that's too far away from what we require. And there's remedies to your concerns. Blinds, rods, security systems. We want it to look nice. And I know you do too.

Yeah, we do. And we've tried every avenue to make it pleasing, to make it good for the board and pleasing and aesthetically beautiful and all of that.

Just a thought. What does the code and what does everybody think about a false window? How does that work?

address technically it's it refers to that as not being applicable but yeah it doesn't that was just a thought that popped in and do you feel like eight windows of the three by five is is 50 or no how much more do i need a lot more so the bigger the bigger thing also is that the percentage is based on a datum from two feet above finish floor to eight feet above finish floor so your window's up at 16 or 14 at the top that's not even within the area that qualifies for that percentage of transparency bring them down. So that I guess the various studies have shown that actually more transparency and allowing for illumination even through hours of the night when you're not open. gives the suggestion that there's somebody on the interior of the building and that actually reduces the amount of break-ins and crimes because not only can they be seen when they do break in, if they break in, but it actually deters them because they think someone's on the interior. So more glass and more illumination actually deters break-ins than walling it all off and having it completely closed. So, yeah.

I think if they look in and see the $50,000 simulator unit, So I think they would be apt to want to break in to get them because they're not attached to anything. They're kind of movable.

Does it have to be glass you can see through? Like what about the block glass?

The way it's written, it's transparent.

How about curtains?

See, they're smart, these people. They'll do whatever it takes to get in. Like they broke through steel doors two years ago when the Fugas owner had passed. They knew he had passed and they broke through very thick steel doors with three locks and they broke the frame and they broke in. Because they knew there was golf stuff worth a lot of money in there and a lot of inventory and we have quadrupled inventory now. So they knew if they got in there and they within the time before the cops could even come through the whole entire building. So we're more Anxious and aware that, you know.

Did he have security then?

Yes, he had security cameras. He had the cops still checking. And he also had an alarm system. We have more cameras than before, five groups of cameras. We have two security systems. And also wood put up on the interior with the doors, plus three locks, plus cameras that can be seen on the watch and on the phone and at home also. And the cops do now come and drive around more often because we've had to call them so many times and we get charged every time we call them. So I think if it was open, that open, they would try. Like with the motor sports, they had big windows, the full length, like what you're saying. And they took a car and drove right through the window, fit 13 teams, broke in, stole, I think it was, I don't know, close to, I don't know, 10 to 15 SUVs and snowmobiles. So the bigger windows made it so they could drive the car through and do it. So all those folks had to put big, huge squares there so they can't drive through now. But I think knowing what they would feel our inventory is and the simulator units that are so expensive, being able to especially see that, whether I have blinds or not, they know it's there. They're more apt to try to do it. So I was just trying to protect that whole situation. And all the inventory that was lost prior was never reclaimed. We never got it back. The cops never found out who did it. We were never able to do anything about it. So, you know, it's like your whole livelihood is gone in a matter of 30 minutes. I think they did it. So I'm really nervous about that part, putting all this time and work.

Yeah, I get that 100%.

It's crazy. To lose it.

But the security grills, and I don't think they necessarily have to look like prisons. They will take care of that issue relative to the windows.

They can coil, so they don't have to be permanent. So they could be brought down after hours and then lifted up during the time that get recessed above the ceiling or in a box. They don't have to be permanent, you know, security gates on the interior. I guess my position here is not to design your project, but in looking at your plan, that lounge space that's outside of your simulator space, if that was the area in which you incorporated the majority of your transparency, and then you separate that with another locked door on the interior so that that room is completely separated from your simulation, now you're protecting, you're creating a secondary security kind of separation on the interior of your building. If somebody decided to smash that glass, they'd only be limited to that lounge space. instead of all the way through the entire building, just by creating that separation.

50% of your windows that you need just in the lounge. And we have the whole other part steel, pure steel.

I'm saying that would result in more than 2.5%. So it would definitely get you much closer if that was presented as, you know, the lounge gets all glass and then maybe it would be up to the board, right? And I'm not designing a project, but that would be like one of the one things that I think would eliminate the security concern because the lounge probably has minimal equipment in it, right? But you can have some transparency incorporated into that room and separate it from the rest of your building.

Yeah. Would that be an option?

We have to show it to them and come up with the calculation as far as how much we now would have by doing something like that.

And that's just talking about the addition, right? The existing building. I don't understand what, I don't have enough drawings to know what's going on the interior of that building, but the windows that were there are now not there anymore, right? In this current proposal, so.

And the old building is not there, but we are coming to one by four egress windows then up high. It's only a 12 foot ceiling instead of 16 foot to the station. So up close to that, probably about seven and a half inches down. is a one foot by four foot egress and they're like one here a space and another one where the existing windows used to be so there is going to be two windows on the old building but they're high up and um smaller than the three by five yeah you're going to need to add windows to that section as well How many do you think?

I don't want to design it. We have to figure out the calculation.

Okay. So you want 50% on both buildings, kind of?

It's 50% total of the building facade base. So 50% of this area.

Okay.

Or as close to it as we can get.

So if we can spread out enough windows, maybe we can do it then. Yeah. Okay. We can work on that.

Anthony, what are your thoughts on the bump outs?

I think technically by the way the zoning is written it is a plane a wall plane that does have that two foot differential so by the letter I guess it does apply it's not necessarily a fin or anything like the last proposal kind of like our last discussion I heard discussion and again we're not doing a wing wall we're doing a face that sticks out two feet

Yeah, it's definitely two foot out, like a square void, but it's noticeable.

Just don't ask me what I think aesthetically.

Standoff. What do you think aesthetically? A standoff.

Does this comply with our standards?

By the way, I think yes. By the way, it's written. But you're still up to make your decision, right?

This complies because it's wider than the last project?

I would consider it, it's wide enough to be a wall plane. It's a plane that it's not just a wing wall or anything that's protruding or a peer type element. It's, it's a wall plane.

Very noticeable. I don't think it's what was intended.

Do you want it wider? Is that what you're getting at? Like let more than six feet of a wall plane. Is that what you're going, what you're saying? It doesn't.

No. What if your missed area here where your sign is, that whole area was bumped out? That's a bump out to me. That's substantial, not just a two feet that sticks out.

Well, it's six foot width. So it sticks out two foot, six foot width, so six foot, and then two foot back. Kind of like a rectangle that sets out. Very noticeable that sets out, but avoids. You know what I'm saying? Like a rectangle that's about two foot and two foot with a six foot wedge. So it's like a void.

So it bumps out or it doesn't? It does bump out.

It does bump out.

Whether or not it's as, it definitely bumps out to two by six foot. That's pleasing enough for that.

You've got a big group over connecting the two bump up. I was just thinking that.

That would look pretty, like different. Yeah, I think that would be a lot of character.

A little bit wider.

I think it would make it look wider, yeah. That's an easy fix.

And instead of that little cap, like connect that too with mimic your peak.

No, that would be pretty if those six foot, six foot palm out pan pan triangle rope. That would be easy to do.

So you're just saying here that we're saying like, I'm saying connect the two.

That would make it more substantial.

All right.

I was going to mention cupola's but that's a better idea you change a lot of choices unless we're making it like just again these are suggestions what we're going to do is we're going to take them back the architect sit down with her and just make sure and come up with something that's close to what they're looking for as possible that meets what you need and what meets what they need that's kind of where we're going to go yeah I like the look of it I think it's easy like you did with the um

the canopies, you know, the triangle canopies above each doorway. Those are easy, so I think we can make this easy and not too expensive. So I think that the way that you're recommending it would be something that we could do.

On the drawing, I see a small one there by the great door.

Oh, the one above the door? Yeah, that's like a little canopy, but it's not important. So that's pretty, yeah.

Yeah, we might be able to do something in here that doesn't affect the trusses. Yeah. Like a fuss.

But not have it affect the structure itself?

Yeah, because you've got a pretty good... Not in our senses. Yeah.

I think we could do that. And it would be the black steel with the white wrapped in steel on the wood for that triangle. So it would look pretty because they have a different color variation. Yeah, that would be cute. Yeah, I think we could do that.

We're here to help.

Tim, did you adjust the architectural comments on landscaping at all?

We added the, yes, the 21 shrubs on the site plan and the nine shrubs we figured from our landscape. So that we did, we added the trees.

to the parking lot, those squares. We added the trees that you guys asked for last evening. The trees with the four flowers around it, those were the 11 by 18 dividers of .

You're talking about the overall number of shrubs? Yes. Okay. We didn't change anything as far as what we originally, but we submitted the second time. So we still have the tourniquet.

I did. A little bit short.

We added the nine shrubs around the dumpster with a raised bed because you said you wanted more, you know, for it to look aesthetically beautiful and for it to kind of conceal it. So we have the white vinyl around the dumpster and then we added a raised bed with black mulch and then the nine spherias that are yellow green. So, and they grow, you know, substantial. so we added those we added the white birch to the 11 by 18 um dividers in the parking lot um and we offset like you wanted the offset um white birch along route 11 in front of the new parking lot so um and we did add all of the the bed in front of the new building it was like three foot by 70, we're gonna make a raised spot. And we added spherias and I think we used black eyed Susan. So we spread each bush out with flowers. So that's like a three by 70 area in front of the new building. So every spot literally has either a bud, flowers, spherias or bushes. We did it all around the whole property.

Yeah, it falls a little bit short of our requirements. It does look very nice. I love your enthusiasm.

Yeah.

Would it make sense where you remove that parking lot to put some trees along there as well?

In here?

We could.

Yeah.

And maybe we can... The ones that I have, like I could put the white birch on there. The single strand. I just think they're pretty. Oh, it might go in.

The sewer line is right here. Oh, okay. Yeah, we did add some over in here.

Yeah, I added the raised bed with the flowers. Those are daylilies.

Maybe what we look at is maybe we'll look at adding a few something in this area.

In front of the old building?

Yes. If you can't do that, park in the old parking area.

We'll look at the old parking area and we'll look at that.

definitely add maybe more raised beds to that area we didn't put the cement that grass area because if trees go into the water sewer line can we do raised beds there more okay we can do that yeah yeah we can we can do like maybe two longer oval raised spots separate and in that grass area where we didn't put the parking and add um some bushes and daylilies like you can make that pretty too so it's not just grass in front of that the old parking perfect sounds like a plan so does this mean we can get a conventional or anything no um we have to wait i have to bring another drawing back to you on the next date but if we fulfill all those

Not because of me, it's because of our attorney. He's the main one.

Thank you. I don't see it in your eye.

What?

Don't say way. Don't say way. Don't be nice.

Oh, it's me. It's me. I can override him.

Oh, you can?

I'm not going to. Oh. Never have.

Okay, well, so if we meet those, then we will be close. Is it possible to get a conditional at that meeting?

If that meeting, I would suspect you'd be done. We'll do a final approval.

Okay. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you all. Thank you so much.

Have a good night.

Thank you.

There's only two items, but it's about 110 in here. Is it broke?

You probably shut it off.

Like 30 last time.

Next item is a continuation of a site plan for property at 7991 State Route 31 for a restaurant. Welcome back. How are you tonight?

do i pick up pick up from the comments what's that i pick up from the comments and dress those yeah go over modifications that you made based on the comments yep okay so they have uh materials and colors let me make sure i got the right thing here John Gerstle, indicate stone veneer manufacturer color and type on the elevations. John Gerstle, The. John Gerstle, known that we're putting on this is a tackle block so it's an architectural stone, what happened on the store on front. John Gerstle, Not putting this on what we are on the stone is going across the front and the bottom, but not on the front. John Gerstle, On the building itself.

And it's kind of a significant change from the last time. It's much smaller, lower, and it doesn't go on the entrance, right? I think it needs to go back the way it was. That's what we were expecting.

the only problem i had with that was i can't match the columns on the other side with that i wanted to get i wanted to have the stone match the whole you know so this all the columns match this is what i got in the front which the complete match so there's no two different kinds of stone on there

So this is the stone here?

No, I don't know what this is.

There was stone all along here too.

Yes, there was.

i need to go back okay this is the stone that we got so that's what you're showing here correct nathan you're saying it just doesn't carry up along here

No, the previous submission had a stacked stone. It was actually a finished, you know, stone that was different than the patio surround. The patio surround always showed the CMU veneer as the material he's referencing today. The entrance had more of a split stone. It was more of a decorative stone than it was a block.

What they had on there initially?

Yeah.

So it was, you know, the intention wasn't to do that and be first place, so I had to draw it up and wanted everything to match so it was continuous and you just i feel it's too much though on that small of a building i like the original one you like this one i promise i do them nice You want, I said, I do them nice. I'm not, you know, I don't use the plastic veneer that I see, you know, a lot of these people bring it in, which is approved, which that's the cheap stuff. Right. So I'm using real stone doing it the right way. You know, in order to take this, the problem is with the front of the building in order to be continue with this, I got to put a footer in just, it's, it's too deep. So I could go across that bottom, but I, you know, It just requires a lot more to to do that. It's pretty short building. You know it's a lot of window. So you know what I did going around the front of it. It just it looks clean.

You know it's good material to to that comment to your point. I think it might actually be more cost effective to do the last stone that you had because those are only about an inch deep and they can be adhered to the wall surface and not require a foundation because they come in thin material real stone but only about an inch deep um these actually would require if it's four inches like that's like your note mentions would require a foundation which would be even more expensive problem is i'm already halfway there so oh it's you know i'm all stone i'm done

You know, so for me to go across that bottom to match it, I have no choice. That's what I have to do. But I'm using, you know, diamond coat material. It's good stuff.

So that front elevation is a little misleading. It doesn't show that you're actually looking in, right? I'm fine with that if you are. I just, I want to see the Brick on the other section raised up to where it was shown here. It looks like it comes to about a foot under the windows.

Yeah. That's labeled as a trim board. Yeah, trim board.

That's not brick? That's not brick. You just told me it was brick.

I didn't. Yeah, that is.

So that needs to continue along here.

Right, that's what we were talking about with putting the footer in to do that.

So it is going to be a brick here.

I was hoping not so.

You got to do something it's required by code.

To what's the, what is the code?

What's the terminology?

What's the actual what's the base base material?

The base.

It's a base material that should be across. Anything visible from the right away, it should be consistent on all 4 sides. But there's been some leeway on past projects where wrapping the corners certain distance that could reduce the amount. But the base material should be a clear base material differentiation between the upper portion of the wall and the base material.

It doesn't necessarily.

No, it just needs to be a material change.

So that board on the bottom is going to be a different color. That's what it's showing, right?

Yeah, I mean, material change and kind of think of what you can do. I mean, at the end of the day, I can put that. How high do I got to go up with that?

Like I said, this one shows coming about a foot below the windows. Does it give a specification as height? No.

i'll make it look right i just don't want to get too you know what i mean it's so short i just think it it was a taller building for sure but you're building you tell me what you want what do you want me to do you're the builder we tell you what you need the standards you come up with a plan i don't we don't do the design work but unless you have some recommendations

I'd leave it for Zossmer to respond to the comment and see what they come up with. Yeah, I don't think we should take a position of trying to design these projects, right? I concur. I'd leave it up to Zossmer.

What you presented last time is very nice and met standards. And I know now you've already started construction.

it's it's much nicer than a than a veneer you know you gotta keep cost effective wise too you know for me to go veneer all the way around that whole thing is like brutal i'm a landlord you know i wouldn't it doesn't what doesn't even just do the front a couple feet on each side three feet on each side so just put right you pretty much i got everything i already got stone in the front there so you need stone just on the bottom across something yeah

yeah so when we say front this is part of the front this is part of the front right again yeah let's go along here and then going back around the corner a few feet are there still stairs to get into the main entrance in the front it's a ramp oh still a ramp yeah right here yeah so you still have a ramp and you'll have you'll have a ramp on both sides so you'll be able to oh so you're going from both sides both sides

used to eat there a bit when it was a hometown diner even yeah yeah so the only problem with the stone on that side there if i bring it around i'm going to have to go down the whole building to do it so it wouldn't look right where would i stop it

We're not going to disapprove it if it goes around the whole building, but you don't have to. I'll leave that to you.

You want it in the front.

And turn in the corner a little bit.

Okay.

Entrance to the right of that picture, is that for employees, or what is that?

It's going to be for delivery, so that's

It goes into the kitchen or office?

It goes into the kitchen, yeah. It's where I'm sure the employees will go out and smoke or whatever they do.

Have you seen the municipal reviews from July 8th? I did. There's a number of things on there. Did you go through each one of them?

I had Zosima go through them.

Mark. Unless I missed one, I think the additional comments on August 4th, I deleted the items that I felt they responded to in the update, but I may have missed. So if you caught something.

I just thought I was looking at the most current one. August already.

August, yeah. August 4th is the response. Yeah, we got them today.

Anthony, you want to go through them?

um so the first one we're all set for now yep we mentioned the first one the second is just adding a note to make sure that any gutters downspouts just match the color of the adjacent surface that they're coming down or through there needs to be a note on the plan yep on the drawings there yeah and you don't have to indicate where the gutters and all that so just put a general note that says that they will match whatever adjacent surface they're against um So we go down to the site comments, new dumpster location on that site plan. Shows like if there's cars parked in the lot, may be difficult to access those if you have a truck coming to service those dumpsters during operation hours or if there's occupied.

The trucks come at like 8 o'clock in the morning. So I talked to Zossman about that this morning, and that is actually the most out-of-the-way area to put that dumpster. The only other option I'd have, because we have that turnaround in the back there, we don't want it any closer to the buildings. And I don't want it on the waterfront either. So it's actually a good spot. It backs up to my neighbor's dumpster. And when I asked Zostner about that, as far as fire trucks and whatnot, he explained to me that even without that space there between me and the neighbor, there's enough room there for a fire truck to circle around.

I'm all right with that.

Um, there's an area on the northwest corner of this. It's not in sight, but on this plan on top left. The strike pavement area next to space number 8. There's a 10 foot landscape buffer requirement. If instead of the striping, you can make that another landscape area. That'd be.

I have a new, I had him fix that today. Perfect. Oh, I got that done.

Great.

So that'd be need to be reflected on the plans that we're pretty well.

Yeah, I got the plan. I'll send it over.

And then the final two comments, just landscape requirements. We took a rough calculation on extent to the street frontage and the building surrounds. So a total of 13 trees are requirement with only five shown on the plan. And then 66 required shrubs where only 27 are shown. So it would be up to you.

So my perspective on that, if you do something on the entrance area that you're going to convert the grass, put some landscaping in there. There's a lot of trees in the back.

Yeah.

Just put some landscaping in that new dirt area in the entrance and you're good.

Let me ask you this, and I already started, so I'm already prepared to do it. The grass buffer between me and the funeral home there, that long stretch of the parking spots there.

Up here?

Yeah, he's got concrete barriers. They've been up there forever between the light poles. It's just a full strip there between us. that having that small grass buffer is just going to be a nightmare of plowing. The cost to put curbing all the way down there, obviously that wouldn't make any sense, but you know, we can put it there. I just, you know, initially we thought you guys wanted trees there. It didn't seem like that would be necessary and I'm willing to do it. I just feel that it's going to be, it's just going to be such a small area and the plowing, you know, It's going to create just a mess. What will create the mess? It's going to be tore up every, you know. The grass? Yeah, because it's just going to be a, you know, it's going to go from pavement to grass, and it's such a small, thin strip of it.

So you're proposing pave it?

Pave right up to it the way it is now, down there. I don't mind putting the island like you want there with the tree. I'm good with that.

I kind of like the grass, but any thoughts, Mark or Anthony or board?

I guess the previous comment to the number of shrubs and being so low, but I guess my thought was shrubs along that landscaped area, but it's up to the board to decide.

you say what would i the only problem is what can i put there that's not going to get filled by the salt you know the other biggest biggest concern with this stuff is that on my if it's my building that i'm operating out of by all means i have maintenance people and you know i'm i'm a neat freak but you know i already have a few addresses that i'm leasing to these these folks and although they keep things decent they don't take care of the landscape and the grass like I would. So, you know, it's one thing that I can put all the landscaping in, but these people aren't going to take care of it. You know, it's going to look worse than... What do you think it is, about 10 feet?

Eight, 10 feet? Five feet.

Five.

There's really no... Yeah. If you... This corner here kind of sets this aisle here, the 22-foot aisle you need, so you really can't widen that by pulling those down appreciably.

And it's not wide enough to plant any trees, so you can't do trees in it. It would be shrubs, but maintenance to those other points is important.

Yeah. Well, it's a concrete wall.

You know, someone could put the grass right in front of those concrete barriers.

Yeah.

So he won't hit it with a plow?

So what's that?

He's got the concrete barriers, so he won't hit it with his plow.

Yeah. Just to divide us, really.

tend to like the grass in between as well i do i do too i mean we have the neighbor take his wall down i'm sure he'll let you do that next time he comes in where would all the snow go when you do plow it's gonna go to the back oh in the river

You got push it there ever but you there's there's a lot of room back there i'm just going to. it's going to grade it up Nice and clean.

Probably push back and said grass is the only way to go with it.

place to go.

So aggressive the answer.

So you also die with the block or the front, which I'll figure out how to figure out or terminate it, maybe bring it up. So I'll get something figured out. We got that. We're good on the landscape. I take care of that front.

I get it on the plan.

Yeah, there'll be several. Take care of that front corner there. Grass on the side. Good on the dumpster enclosure.

Next time we'll wrap it up.

Going to bring it back again.

Yeah, we need to plan to reflect that. Yeah, the things we've talked about.

Well, thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.

The next item on the agenda for the proposed facade modifications for property 8061 to Brewerton Road. The applicant's not here. They were told they didn't have to come, but we just got information late this afternoon, so we're not going to address it tonight. We'll just move it to the next meeting. So then the last item on the agenda, this is for the property at 7917, 7919 Brewerton Road, a proposed seven-brew coffee stand. Hello there.

Questions?

I was looking for that.

Hi, good evening.

My name is Larry Adler. I'm with Brew Team New York. We are seven brew franchisee for upstate New York and we go from Rochester to Albany and down to the Hudson Valley. We have about 15 open today, and we'll have 23 by the end of the year. The closest one that we have here is in North Syracuse, which I hope you guys are familiar with and are customers.

Sweetheart Corners.

Yeah, exactly. So the property that we're talking about is 7919 Brewerton Road. The tax map number is 037-01-16.2. It's owned by the Bobbitt Family LLC, or 7919 Brewerton Road LLC. Our parcel is approximately 1.4 acres. and we're going to have a disturbance of just over a half acre.

If we can look to the overall site plan, the site plan, the C2.1, I think. All right.

So while he's pulling that up, a little bit about Seven Brew. We're a drive-through only, beverage only coffee stand. We have at least double lane drive-throughs that go around all of our coffee stands. Here, because of the advantageous layout here, we have two lanes that go around the entire site and a third lane an escape lane or a bypass lane that'll help things out here. We sell beverages only. Like I said, it's espresso-based drinks, energy drinks, and smoothies. We don't really sell food. The only food we do have is a prepackaged muffin top. So in light of that and how we greet our customers, the average time from when you order to when you receive your beverage is about three to three and a half minutes. So what we do is we greet our customers with an iPad and they take the order and the beverages are delivered to the customer. There's no drive-through window per se and there's no microphone to do that. The building is about 510 square feet. That's the larger of the two that you see there. It's a pre-manufactured building. It's made with Nichiha. It's a cement fiber product that reads like brick, and we have some elevations that we can show you. The other structure right adjacent to that is approximately a 340 square foot cooler and storage area, and that's clad in the same Nichiha material, so it matches the building. And the in the far left is the dumpster area, and that is also clad in the same niche ha and has steel gates in the front so it's not like a chain link fence it actually reads like a nice structure there. As I said, it's a drive-through only, so in the building it's 510 square feet. It's employees only. There's no public allowed into it. It's just where our baristas are. And all we have in there is a few machines that produce the beverages and a bathroom for the employees. It's like 99.9% of our customers come through the drive-through. We will accommodate, you know, if somebody walks up to the door, we will accommodate them. But that's, you know, a very, very small part of what we do. This plan here, just in the two lanes, has queuing of about 35 cars, which would be our largest amount of queuing that we have in all of New York State right now. And it provides the site plan provides for 12 parking spaces. And so our hours are typically our hours are 530 in the morning till 10 o'clock at night. Sunday to Thursday, and then Friday and Saturday we stay open till 11. The typical shift shift has. 4 to 6 employees in it. So the 12 parking spaces allows for shift changes so that when people don't have to jockey to get parking spaces out there. We, so, and I apologize, Steve pointed out that we didn't have an overall plan showing the connection. The connection to Brewerton Road will be at the traffic signal by Goodwill. And so there's no driveway on our property that'll go out to Brewerton. All the traffic, all the incoming traffic will be coming from the traffic light on Brewerton Road. And there's a proposed right exit only a little south of where we're located. I should point out that this property is owned, there's two lots, two individual lots that are owned by the owner, we're taking the northern portion of the, or the northern lot I should say, which is again about 1.4 acres. The owner and his engineers have been in long conversations with DOT, and DOT approved the intersection layout geometry that you see there and gave the owner the direction to proceed with site plans so that they could have more direct comments on the site plan. We included in our package, we did a separate traffic study because we like to make sure that the traffic is going to work we've included that. And then. You know, I guess today we received the Onondaga County 239 referral, which had a couple of recommendations in it. One being coordinate with DOT. The second with the Onondaga County Department of Water Environmental Protection. And then other recommendations to formalize the easements with the property owners for access to Burden Road. that landscaping be placed between the access road and Brewerton Road. And they encouraged a connection from our building to the existing sidewalk that's out on Brewerton Road, which all will be addressed in our next set of plans. But here to answer any questions that you guys may have. Jim?

So it's going to be located...

where the mattress store yeah right yeah that's going away yeah so that's about an 8 000 square foot store that'll all you know be demolished and it's pretty close to brood and road so that goes away and and we take that portion of the of the property okay and will it be a similar setup to what you have at sweetheart corners Yeah, I mean, in terms of there's two lanes that go around the building and that's how we circulate. So, yeah. And again, here, the top of the page is where the intersection, the top of the page would be Goodwill and where the connection to the traffic light is. And then you'd come in, make the first right, and then you'd have the queuing that will wrap around the building. and then uh exiting for those people that want to go south on on 11 we'll just go to the right and there's a right out only that's reflected on the plan and if you wanted to go north you would make a left in the access road go to the traffic light and go out onto brewery how many employees in a shift is is usually four to six on a typical shift During pre-opening activities, there's a little bit more, obviously. And where will they park? In the 12 spaces. We probably don't have much more than 12, if that. They're not permanent employees of the stand. We just help with traffic control. They're there to help with traffic control and for the operations.

that's all i got for now okay thank you chuck well if you say it you can q35 you're liable to need it business i've never almost never seen anybody less than 15 20 carats minimum right I keep saying, what's the attraction? You have to go try it.

It's good. And we like to say we cultivate kindness. It's a little bit more than just getting, you know, pulling up to a window and asking for a coffee. You know, they engage more.

It must be a repeat business. There's no connection to Goodwill at all, their parking lot.

No, just through the access road.

I'm sure you do very well.

I hope so.

That's a plan.

So they just drive up to a window. There's no microphone. They don't have to go to multiple windows.

No.

They're ordering. They wait. They drive away. Three minutes. And what did you say your hours were again?

530 in the morning till 10 Sunday to Thursday. Yeah.

Okay.

And then Sunday and Friday and Saturday till 11.

A lot of people haven't copied it.

It tapers off. I mean, you know, the peak hours are in the morning from seven to nine and the afternoon from four to six. So it's the end hour, shoulder hours, as they call it. But you want to be there for the people that want to have a late night jolt.

I did not know you had one in North Syracuse. I'll have to go check it out. Thank you.

The South Lane for the drive up. How are they? How do they receive their order?

So again, our greeters come out with an iPad and a couple of slides down. There's actually a striping plan. So our lanes are the lanes here proposed are 12 and a half feet wide, separated by a two foot striped lane. And that's where the employees will walk around. It might be a couple more down.

It's very slow. I'm trying to compare bits.

Some people say it's like Chick-fil-A meets Starbucks because we take the order in there.

So the employer, they wait at that little table where they put the order in? I saw some pictures.

There's sometimes, you know, if they're running out to the cars, there'll be like a little table and they'll put the drink, the beverages out there, yeah.

How about the condiments? Do they mix them for the customer?

Yeah, there's no condiment bar. You order it exactly like you like it. And if you're a repeat customer, you get a code on the car and they scan it and it says, do you want what you normally get? It's done pretty well. And the other thing I didn't point out is so you can see the that blue striping between the the first and the second lane. That's to allow the the greeters to walk and greet the cars. The there's a the white where the stop bars are that's a canopy so that when the typically when the people receive their drinks it it's under a covered it's a canopy so that uh it makes it a little easier so there's an employee inside that just puts it in the window right there for the other employee to pick up and bring to the car Yeah, well, I'm sorry, I didn't hear the question.

So there's an employee inside the building that brings the order to a Yeah, they're well, the Easter's are making the drinks.

And then there's runners that go through Easter coffee maker degrees.

Someone's got the iPad taking the order, they keep moving down the cars runner.

All right, Mark, can you go to 821? Please. A21? A2.1.

No, that's the site plan.

Oh. Sure. While he's doing that, I saw a note about an adjacent car wash. To my knowledge, and I don't...

I've not met the owners. I was hoping to see them here tonight, but I... I was just going to say, I don't think there's another tenant.

I think I read it somewhere.

Yeah, prior to that, maybe first started talking about site plan. There was a car wash interested in it, but yeah.

A is an apple, 2.1.

Sorry. There is no car wash.

I think... This says south, I'm sorry, north and south. I think those are actually east and west.

The next page says. Yeah, this would be the top is facing east because the top picture is the front of the stand, so to speak. And so that's what, if you're standing on Brewerton Road, that's what you'll see.

You just got to tweak it. It says north and it says south. Okay. I don't know. I catch these things. No, that's all I have. Anthony, anything at this point?

Just a couple of things on the civil plan. Just based on aerials and New York State maps, I don't know if you've done a wetland delineation, but it looks like the dumpsters and some of the driveway may be getting really close to that. I don't know.

Yeah.

Can you come on up, please? Give your name.

Bobbitt. Uh, we did a delineation at the DC and everybody come in and and. You know, confirm the wetland lines about a year and a half 2 years ago.

So that was completed and these and I guess the current layout is 1 that's acceptable to the any offsets or, you know. boundaries that are required based on that delineation.

I think that we need to just confirm. We're clearly outside of the boundary of a wetland. There may be a 100-foot buffer.

It is compensated for. I know in working with Plumlee Engineering and stuff that did the DOT plan site, that was all compensated for yet. Okay.

I guess the only other question, I guess, and if the current entrance to the Goodwill has an exit only from the parking lot that comes out to that signal as well. So you're basically having three vehicular directions intersecting, you know, maybe 20 or 30 feet away from the actual main intersection on Route 11. So I think that whole intersection of vehicles really needs to be studied to understand

Yeah. Yeah. And I apologize. Part of this was the sketch plan will provide the plans that Plumlee engineering put together. But I know that there is some widening From what Dave Aiello mentioned to me, what DOT is requiring a little bit of widening on our side of the intersection. Yeah, I think you're talking about this lane coming out here.

This right now is an exit only.

Right. So it looks like they're making it wider, but I'll get the answer to that question from DOT and Plumland.

You can go from home depot straight across the street.

Right. I'm just saying that if you have a car queuing in and out of this direction, a car queuing in and out of this direction, and a car here waiting to turn, or there's a queue of lines waiting for that light, one car waiting here now backs traffic back into Route 11 because they're trying to get into Europe. Right. All of that queuing space. It seems very tight when you have four to six different directions of vehicles that could be intersecting within 30 feet away from Route 11 intersection. So one car stopped here waiting to turn into you could cause backup into Route 11. So just that study is something that we need to look at.

yeah i'm confident do i i saw the emails where dot said they approved the intersection so i'm assuming you know they covered that but we'll we'll address it with you thank you steve and i'll set that you have anything at this point there's comments about the easements just give them to me sir yeah yep mark uh

Yeah, I don't know. I guess we're going to look at that study. And I mean, this is coming out of Home Depot. Across the street. We know what happens with traffic over there. And that's a single exit lane going out there. So now anybody's coming out of the Home Depot going straight, they're holding up.

I don't know.

I guess we'll find out. And that whole And again, I apologize for not having it, but I believe they widened the intersection up there. I mean, it looks like we're providing access to this parcel down here also.

Well, that's the access road. So so there's an existing driveway that feeds both live today.

Yeah.

And that's going to be eliminated. I think that was the driving force with DOT. And that's why they were, you know, they embrace this plan with Plumlee.

That's all good. Yeah.

Oh, it's coming through a control intersection now.

Oh, again, all that's all good stuff.

Right.

Is that. I mean, we know how the track. And this is going to. impact people coming out of Home Depot, further exacerbating the traffic back in there. I know DOT is going to approve it, but I also know.

Well, I did see, and again, I just saw some of the correspondence, but I know that they were talking about signal timing adjustments. to accommodate the child.

Mark, you're concerned about cars leaving Home Depot?

I'm just saying that this is putting more burden upon that intersection. A significant amount based on the amount of traffic you're talking about coming out of here. For people that leave Home Depot?