Planning Board - Regular Meeting

Good evening. Welcome to the Thomas Cro plan board meeting. Would you please join us in the pledge of allegiance? Secretary of Le one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and all. Thank you. First order of business is the approval of the January 21st minutes. Any questions or comments? Motion to approve. Motion to approve. We have a second. Second. Jim, yes. Chuck, yes. Mary, yes. Zack, I vote yes for the minute. They are approved.

And now we'll open the meeting to public comment. If there's anybody in the audience that would like to address the board on any active application, you may do so now. Nobody's nobody's approach. We'll close the public input and move on to the first agenda item. This is a zone change recommendation for the property at 6668 and 6674 State Route 31 from AG to GC plus agricultural general commercial plus. Thanks Tim. Good evening Tim Koy who's in Romans. Um as you're aware we were here last week last meeting

um and we incorrectly had this uh zone for general commercial and not general. So, we reapplied. We're back again. Thank you.

Again, this property is located on Route 31. It's right next to the highway garage and basically behind us is the golf course. Um the pro there's two parcels involved. um roughly uh two acres between both of them and they're looking for a general commercial plus in order to um build uh some storage warehouses for their current um business. Now, I understand that I don't want to get into too many details about the sketch plan and what they're planning on doing, but overall that that is their going to be their general plan. Um I understand that the con conceptual plan shows this area is roughly um I think it's agricultural maybe residential on the uh concept plan. Um but again you have a commercial highway office or highway garage on one side and you have a commercial golf course on the other side. And I know that there's the overlay district now. I don't know if that's officially been put in place but it was showing this as um residential and mixed residential use. part of that recommendation, a lot of the part of that um code does require ask that the lots be 10 acres or more. As far as part of those requirements, we don't meet that by any stretch. Trying to you could maybe do two residential single family uh lots here with these. But as far as doing a true mix commercial, residential, I don't know if you have enough room to do a ton on this lot. But again, that's up to the board's discussion and I look forward to any questions or concerns.

Let me start. I just want to update the board on some information that we received. I'm not sure everybody got this, but we got a the recommendation from the county planning board. Tim, did you get a copy of that? Yes. Everybody see that?

Um, I'm just going to read a small part of it. The GC+ district being intended for the coexistence of a commercial and light industrial uses does not seem to consist with the town's identified goals of reserving this area for residential and/or agricultural. The town is encouraged to consider whether applying for the GC plus zoning designation to this area will allow future development of this location that is incompatible with the town's vision as stated in the comprehensive plan. So what they're saying is that we might be setting a precedent. The Yes, I understand that.

And then I received a copy of an email from John Steinman's. He's our uh town consultant for the comprehensive plans that we've been doing and updating. And I'm going to just read a snippet of this. I don't think anybody else received this yet. So, this decision will create a very important precedent along Route 31 regardless of which way you decide. If the town approves the zone change, it will likely foster additional requests that will become harder to say no. It will also serve to erode the direction established in the comprehensive plan and impact the ability to achieve not only [clears throat] the vision for route 31 but for the areas of that town of the town. If the town denies the request, it will reinforce that the town is committed to the direction established in the comprehensive plan. So his concern as well is what we might be setting as a precedent. Well, to to be fair, I I I fully agree that this does not necessarily match the comprehensive plan. Um, to be to be perfectly fair, I came in here with a zone change like 6 months ago and the comprehensive and it matched the comprehensive plan and I was kind of told that comprehensive plan really was just a map that we don't necessarily have to follow. So that is why I talked to my client was like, I understand it doesn't meet the comprehensive plan, but this board seems to kind of look at things as an individual as as they come in. So So maybe

you can understand the confusion that I'm getting a little bit of mixed signals here.

Plus, maybe we set a precedent with that one. Um, and I just wanted to go over some of the things that are allowed in the plus so that everybody's aware of it. um shopping center, hotels, motel, gas station, restaurants, health related businesses, light assembly, auto sales, veterary clinics, um parking lots and garages, warehouses, distribution facilities, auto repair and manufacturing. So those are the things on top of general commercial that are allowed in the GC+ that the applicant now has to request. um being to be honest with you the general commercial last time I was kind of okay with that. Now the plus makes it a bit more difficult and these letters that we received make it even a bit more difficult for me but I'm interested in having some discussion. So Jim,

so what's the concern that you're tying up land with single family homes that could be used for we're tying up land for GC+? The use right now is not part of this discussion. Right. Right. Okay.

So it's GC plus and it will include anything in general commercial as well as the things I just outlined and it's in that overlay district for mixed residential. Did I answer your question? Okay. Anything else? No, Chuck. Well, quite frankly, I am uh concerned about the not complying with the uh the general uh overlay plan and what we used to call spot zoning where where it lies. [snorts] And so I would tend to tend to think it would be uh left alone. Okay. Mary.

Um I also have concerns. Um this area we I was on the strategic plan committee and we want to keep the commercial businesses in a commercial district. Um I don't feel this is the right thing for this area. Okay. I guess my only comment to the concerns about this is we're literally right next to the town highway garage

and putting a residential structure there. Does that make sense to the board? Does it make more sense than general commercial? I guess that's my thing. if I'm supposed to be like a mixed residential type of use. I guess my thing is is you're right next to a highway garage which is industrial almost heavy commercial um and you are thinking that this should be residential. Most times we wouldn't put residential next to something like that. That's that's my only question concern or comment and I agree with it. In fact, I think I made that a point at the last meeting when it was general commercial. Um, so then what does that do to the property next to this? Right. Well, well, that that person could come and say, well, you got GC plus here, so I guess my comment to that is a the property next to us is the golf course, which is a very large acre parcel. So you have a lot more you have a lot more leeway to a buffer it b um redesign it and do something more residential with it being right next to this type of use. You we don't have you don't have much ability to buffer and do what you should do if you're up against the a highway garage for something that's going to be res at least that's my opinion. Yeah, you could probably put like a small residential structure there, but how many parking and buffering? And again, you're right next to the highway garage. Who wants to live next to a high highway garage? Apartments

apartments possibly. Yeah. But again, how many apartments are you going to fit on the two acres? How long will the golf course be there? Yeah. How long will the golf course be there? It's not This is not an I'm not I'm just I understand what you're saying. It's diff it's a difficult one.

I I understand the comprehensive plan. I understand the overlay. And part of me questions if it if you're looking at some of the parcel sizes when you're starting to you you call this mixed residential. Most times mixed residentials are 5 acres to 10 acres where you can design it with the buffering, with the landscaping, with everything that this board requires for a mixed residential use. You don't have that here. At least that's my opinion. I mean, that's all. Yep. Mary, you're good. Yeah. Just one other question. Is your intention to combine the parcels?

Uh, not at this time. No. Possibly in the future, depending on, you know, obviously if this doesn't go well, I don't know what the applicant's going to do with the property. Keep in mind, the focus is not on this particular use, right? It's on this particular zone change request. Zack, I'm all set. Thank you. Mike, it was G, but now they're changing it to Right now it's agricultural. Okay. When they were here in front of us last time, they came in for a request to go to commercial GC, general commercial.

But turned out that what they want to put in there does not fit in general commercials. They need general commercial plus. Right? So right now it's agricultural. I understand it but it is going to set a precedent. What we had a problem before when we made a change that remember we had to change it back because it gave the person an opportunity to put anything in there. Is this situation going to arise again? You know, I'm talking about maybe two, three months ago. Um, the SMEN plant.

Yes. So, what adverse effect is this going to have that it could not benefit us? I mean, not be good or I'm going to we'll ask Neil that when we get done. [laughter] Okay. All right. Otherwise, I'd say I'm just looking for the adverse possibilities. Okay. Thank you, Judy.

As was brought up about spot zoning, uh spot no spot zoning obviously is really not recommended since we have um started the comprehensive plan and trying after all these years to regulate the use of the property. Um being that there is the need for land for residential also the fact that with the golf course um I'm sure with the opportunity that someone come along with the right proposal that that golf course would be gone in a heartbeat and residential multi-residential would I believe happen um as far as the highway garage goes all of the trucking is to the rear and to the west side of the building. Um, and there's residential on the other side of that property. And so my my feeling is that if if we were to recommend this going to GC Plus, it would open a can of worms for more spot zoning to come along. That's just my opinion. Thank you. council, what are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that you it's incumbent on you to look at things like the overall plan and to make a decision based on what you think of what's being presented. And I've heard a lot of good arguments. You know, ultimately it's really going to be a, you know, a board decision. All you're doing right now is making the recommendation, right? Recommendation, you know, full weight because the the town board will receive that. But you're going to make it on all the existing circumstances, including what you heard from your own experts. What about the argument of setting a precedent?

We look at everything independently. While you say that, everything that we're going to look at is independently. When you start doing that and doing that, you do set precedent because precedent because other people are watching. So if you're if you say, well, I'm going to look at this site independently, that site independently, and you have four or five, you know, applications go the same way or it does set a doesn't set a precedent that binds you, but it sets a precedence out in the community that they think I can do this. That makes me more comfortable that we're not binding ourselves to something and we can look at each one independently.

You are almost never going to be bound by by president of what you did in the past because as an administrative body, you do not make law. You look at every situation independently, you know. So, but the precedence isn't you have to follow what you always do. The idea of a precedent in this in the manner that it was put to you by by your effort was it leads people He think that this is what he can get this result and get this result overall plans something. And then the discussion on spot zoning. I think we had a discussion on this a couple years ago, a few years ago that spot zoning really isn't a thing anymore. It used to be like a five acres.

It's a thing, but there's a a multi-point test. And one of the things about spot zone is one of the things is is a result of careful planning. So if you go through the whole planning planning process and you know you can show in the record that you know they looked at it. They didn't do it just to disadvantage certain land owners and to advantage you know the the applicant. It's not going to be spot zone. It's not not so much the size of it. It's more about how you went about the process and the approvals and the rational that went into it that you can show. Thank you, Mark. Any thoughts?

Um, no. I think you you know, you're you're hearing the uh positions on each side. Um, you know, all making good points both ways. So, you just have to decide which which way you feel, you know, is important. So, Any more thoughts or discussion? You're going to make me do this. Already got a quarter. So, here's my thoughts. The fact that it's GC plus and allowable uses that are uh provided within that zoning, I don't think are compatible. Um, and with that said, it is going to go in front of the town board one way or another. And we pretty much um, you know, we don't dictate policy, the planning board. We implement the procedures that are already in place and if the town board sees fit to make this zone change, then we can continue on with the site plan. But my opinion is that we should make a ne negative recommendation based on what I've heard so far. Okay, I could put that in the form of a motion for you to recommend disapproval. But when you're voting yes, you're voting to disapprove.

So the motion will be to make a negative recommendation and you vote yes to make that recommendation. The motion is going to be you're going to move for the adoption of a resolution recommending disapproval of the application for a zone change known as Roland Roland Lanberg 668 and 6674 State Route 31 agricultural to Jason Plus. And would somebody like to make that a motion? I'll make the motion. Do we have a second? Chuck Jim, your vote. Yes. Yes. Mary, yes. Zack, yes. And I vote yes. Thank you. [clears throat]

Next item on the agenda is for a site plan review. This is for the property at 6345 Dis. Yes, D. This is for proposed. Thank you. Residential commercial paving business. Yeah. Yeah, this is an existing uh

operation. Again, Tim Koi and Romans. Um, yes, this property is located at the end of Datalus Road. This is an existing uh paving ceiling operation. Um there is a existing uh masonry building here with a um contractor service yard back here where all the gravel is. Um they've been operating here for a few years. Um unfortunately they did not get a site plan when they first came in to um start using this property. They have been cited by the town. They are in court for that. We are here to try to clean that up, try to get their site plan in place, get them, you know, legal and and all conforming with the town. Um, this is the very first step. One of the big things that we um that came up is the wetlands that are back here. Um, we are in the process of getting some type of letter with the from the DEEC. That's probably going to take some time. The the wetlands were delineated back in 2022. At that time, we did reach out to DEEC and they never responded. Um, but we're going to try and get something from them. Um, now tonight is more of with the understanding that we got to we still got to get the DEC letter and and find out what the DEC has to say. But tonight is more about, you know, does the board have any questions, concerns relative to what we're showing here. Um, any changes that you might want to see, any um, comments so that when we do finally come back, we can kind of wrap this up in a fairly quick and simp.

How long have they been here? Mr. Keith said, "How long you been there?" roughly, year number three, they built this site plan. This building was an existing building. Oh, it was he he bought it. That building's been there for a number of years. The change of use. It was a change of use. We'll open up to questions, Jim. Okay. So, it's there. Yep. It's existing. Yep. Nothing's going to change with it, right?

Nothing's changing. Well, the overall use. No, the operation's the same as what's been going on for the last three years. Again, we're going to clean up the storage yard, reorganize it. That was part of what we're doing here um with the bins and and how everything's laid out. He did go over the property line. He's aware that he went over the property line. Uh neighbors aware of that. So, we're going to fix that as well. Okay. Most of it's just cleaning up and getting the site plan in place. so that he can be conforming. There's a couple of sheds or whatever there. Yep. On the on the line itself and they provide the trucking and equipment for paving. They Yes. You provide the trucking and equipment for paving. Yep.

Okay. And they haul it from somewhere else. But this is where the everything is kept. Yep. All right. Okay. I'm good. Chuck, thank you. I was trying to uh visualize the when the trucks come in or go out, are they on that gray area? Yeah, this is the existing driveway right here. This gray area and the road boundary is where then? So this dark line here, this is the road boundary. This little odd, it's a very odd way that the sub the road is ended. So it's got a little hook to it there.

Yeah. And oddly like this is the the the culde-sac pavement that the turnaround but this is their driveway. Trucks come in and come through here. Okay. With those big trucks are the uh gravel been and is strong enough to support all those weight all that. Yeah. I mean not not for anything. They've been doing it for three years. So it's been fine. They can do a lot of things when you're out of sight too. [laughter] Yes sir. Okay. Thank you, Mary. So, it's at a deadend road with other commercial business. So, is this zoned properly for the business? It is. Okay.

It is zoned properly for the business. There is a residential subdivision over here. Just this is uh the pastures. Yes. And there's proper buffering and the trees. There is existing uh hedro here. You can see the edge of trees and brush right down through here. It's thick. It's pretty thick. Yeah. Um I don't have any more questions. Dick. I'm all set for tonight. So we received an email correspondence between Pat Reynolds. Okay. And Carol Hallbrook. You familiar with it? The letter the email? Uh I was not aware. I think I think Pat has to do with the combination of that other parcel and then

Oh yes. Yes. So, uh I think it has to do with this parcel here, right? So, oddly enough, there's an odd tax parcel or somehow it didn't get combined properly. So, we were working with Carol at the at the um county tax mapping to combine it all into one parcel. There was some there's some um conveyance questions as far as how it was conveyed to the current owner. So, that'll be worked on as we go through this process. Yep. I thought Pat has that worked out now, but I'll double check.

I think Carol was going to combine the parcels. You never It It was filed but never recorded because of I believe title issues or name and ownership between the parcels and they had to file a new deed, right? Yeah. So, what it was is there's two if your parcels aren't the same exact identity as far as um who they got conveyed to specifically, the tax mapping department won't combine them, even though the intent of the subdivision was to combine them. They need them in the same entity name and I believe that was the problems that we had to refile a new deed to get them in the same entity name. Unfortunately, Carol has not retired. So, we have we don't have correspondence with her yet. And even if they do change the tax maps, it won't show up until like March.

You'll be on top of that. Yeah. Want to see the copy of that? There something going to happen with the rightway too in her email. Did she mention something about the rightway in that email? Yes. Yep. This is the rightway right here. the whole thing. I think it goes to right here if I remember correctly. Uh, so Pat says that the new tax map doesn't show it. There's another deed that conveys this parcel to the Eastern Paving. Yes. So, we got to fix the deed conveyances. Yes.

Did you get a copy of this? I know something.

Okay. Lot 2B next to it. Yes. Looks like they're utilizing it now. Yeah, that is Mr. Cesta's property. He was in here not too long ago with his site plan and Yes, he's putting his building in over here. Yep. He's under construction. Yeah. Storage. But this applicant has been using it. He's been using part of it unfortunately. And that'll stop. And that'll stop. Yes. They miss this. They're they're they're fine with each other and he's aware and everything everything got is getting cleaned up. And the last question I have is the um snow plow storage area here. Yep. This line encroaches into the wetland a little bit. A little bit. Yes. We got to get Ask for permission.

We're going to get hopefully that's going to be part of what we get from the DEC. All right. I have no other questions. Mike, quick question. Yeah, I thought there was another business in there. There was Mike, can you grab the mic, please? While back, I thought there was another business in there, but they are the only business that's been in there for the last two years by themselves. Okay, no problem, Judy. That Thank you. When you say cleaning up, what do you mean when you get some stuff on the other property? Oh, this this is like gravel that's on the other property.

Mark, you should have the other map. The existing map. It shows the buildings, the sheds encroaching the other property. That's the If you go to the very second sheet, that is it. No, you were had it. So, yeah, there's like sheds and um storage clean up. Yes, we got to we got to move that and get that onto our property and reorganize. Yep. At some point, show that it's not an issue anymore. We moved it or they have permission to use it that way. Have you officially moved it? No, we're waiting until after I

Yeah. No, not a problem. Mike and I Mike and I used to share the other property next to it, but when we did everything, he was out there. You please approach. All right. This is Keith. This is the property owner and applicant. Hi Keith.

So Mike and I used to own that property together on the left of that and I was going to build something on one side. He was going to build try to build on the other. And when Gary came up to sell this property, it just came about the money made more sense to buy an already set up building. And uh I sold my half to Mike and just bought this whole property here. Um so [clears throat] when we were putting it all up, we kind of did rough measurements on our own and kind of came up with where the boundaries were. So when I put my bin up there, I was over about I think it's like 14 feet or something like that. So, it's close,

but but Mike is uh I mean he knows he's in April, March, April, once the snow melts, we're going to pull everything forward and get it all set in line where it's got to go. Okay. We we've staked out the property line so they're fully aware of how far it's got to move and all that, too. Perfect. Yes. All set now. Mark.

Um, yeah. So, yeah, I guess the big thing is going to be the wetlands and some kind. I guess as far as what's shown on the other property, maybe you can show the site plan, what's the other site plan site plan for the other site, show what's proposed there. I I guess you know this area here I mean this this reflect what's on the other plan if it needs to be shown to be removed. Okay. And restored for the grass and show that

mark the aerial is kind of interesting if you want to pull that up to grass because he's going to leave a stone path for fire or fire truck to fit through back. I I'll look at what his he was saying they had to keep it all they wanted to keep it all stone or something for a fire truck to be able to fit through the back side of the property. Okay. Which I think might show up already on his site plan. So we're just going to show what's already on his there.

[clears throat]

There's like a pathway here that I assume you've been using.

No, there there used to be we we've never used it actually. Um it just connected. Gary used to own uh both properties and he used to go back and forth. The person who I purchased the building from and the land next door at one time, Gary Paladino, owned both of them. Um but there was like a little So that logging road um Paul Massie owns everything behind me and he did some logging out of the backside over there and they made they allowed them to make a logging road out the back so they could clear out clear everything out the ash trees out that property. So that's no longer there that

all this disturbance what was that from? That is from Mike Cesta when there's he's got building up now. Yeah. But he did all that, cleared all that and he told us he was coming back in. And there's equipment over there now. Is that your equipment over there now? Yes, that's his equipment. Yeah. You all set? Um, yeah. I mean, so I mean, the gravel is going right up to the property line and right up to the line there. No sort of thing. I'm ask

um you know so you've got effectively 100% lock of the area that's so I don't know if you want some sort of buffer or anything like that the dumpster is shown you know kind of to the side front of the building you know I don't know if you want to move that into an area that's less visible not get a lot of traffic down there to to elaborate on the dumpster there's a pole a telephone pole right right behind that and then that's a whole tree line right there. You can't see that pouring down the street at all unless you pour on the property that you can see like where the dumpster is. Yeah, you can see the tree line here.

So, I I don't know if you wanted to cut back the limits of what's going to provide some kind of buffer. Does this wetland require buffer? Well, this wetland's going to be a DC wetland. So they changed their regulations uh a little over a year ago and and regardless this was a DC previously so there is a 100 foot buffer area that they also regulate and I I don't know what they're going to say about this. I mean it's existing. Um they're not expanding it. I don't know what they're going to say about about this. Y

and that's why I don't think we should consider approval of this until we get some sort of indication to see as to whether they're going to require any modifications in order to comply with their

right. So in the past what we typically do we've done a couple of these now is we show what's there we'll show what we want to do with the as far as what with the DEEC and basically it's almost a back and forth with the DEEC as far as what they'll allow what they'll give us permissions to do. So, this plan's going to change and it's going to reflect whatever the DEEC allows us to do as far as where we can impact and how we have to pull things back or not. Um, so once we get that answer from the DEC and get approvals from the DEC, then we would come back. Now, once we get a letter from the DC officially taking it, then we probably are going to need a negative declaration from this board to start the permit process with the DEC. And just just understand this, this will take a long time. Um we last time we did it it took eight almost 10 months to get

um so that's just with the DEC and then once we come back hopefully we'll have a more confirmed site plan as far as what the DEEC is allowed and then if you don't like what the DC has done then we can you know change it a little bit according to what you guys think and we can't affect what the DEEC approves as far as where buffers and what's been affected but if you don't like some of is set up. Then we kind of talk with this board about that, the finalizing of it. Okay. Does that make sense? Yep. I had a couple other questions. Sure. Go ahead. Oh, I'm sorry, Mark. Thank you.

Thank you. Um, speaking of the dumpster, is it enclosed? Does that have fence around three sides or so? No, there's no fence around it. currently because we always look for having dumpsters, you know, bordered with the vinyl fencing. Mhm. And one more question is the very bottom left. Could you explain that? What's that area usage is? Uh that area is just like like at the end of the day like we come back from jobs or or whatnot, we have extra we call them spoils like extra materials that we have to get off a truck and then we haul them. That way they don't sit on a truck all night and get hard in there. Sure.

And then we scoop them up the next morning and then haul them off the site to back to the plant if we have anything left. Okay. So it's just temporary. It's kind of temporary storage for unused materials. Okay. I just wonder if that same conflict between that usage and the wetlands. Something to think about. Well, that's what with the I mean, I know it's still if there's something that seeps in the ground, but the back area there, I wanted to make uh concrete bins, okay? So, I could store just some aggregate runner crush stuff like that. And then our spoils are all contained in an area so it don't get blown out back into a wetland area. They're kind of in its own little spot.

You have to stay away from that, of course. Yes. Right. Thank you. Thanks, Chuck. Anybody else? Tim, anything additional? Nothing additional. Um, just understand we'll be back eventually. It's just we got to go through some stuff. Understand? All right. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. This concludes the agenda items. Is there any discussion from the team? If not, do we have a motion to adjurnn? Motion to adjurnn.