Plan Commission - Regular Meeting

I know that. But I'd like to cover it and have I'm getting my new French doors closed. Thank you. So we'll have easy access to get out to serve the customers. And I haven't heard about alcohol yet. You guys approve the alcohol yet? So there would be a couple of issues there.

So number one, this board can approve the outdoor seating for the aesthetics. This still would need to go through the town council to allow outdoor seating on a public sidewalk. And then the separate piece of that, the town does have a ordinance against alcohol on sidewalks and I believe it is 93.09 if I remember correctly. And so then also the town council would need to make a decision whether they would allow you to have alcohol on a public sidewalk. And I'm sure Mr. Culps had some ideas around that that he could talk to the council about, but those are council decisions. So those are out of our hands. So

I'm sorry for my Did I miss anything, Mr. Cop on that?

Yes. So everybody can see. I figured that might help just so you could see.

So, Mr. Solski, I think you brought pictures of the potential fencing to show everyone of the the fence. Yes, sir. just so they have an idea what that fence might look like. So I believe what the town has agreed upon is a black rod iron here listed as the Riviera. Something very similar to this. It's not actually rod iron. It's it's aluminum. But but that's that's the look. And the Tom has agreed to do that on every property around that corner on each of those corners. Yes. If you look at

makes sense. So it stays the same.

This uh blue line here that's up on the screen now that's where the fence is proposed. Uh but in between those there will be no parking there. Correct. Comments, questions, board members discussion. very welcoming to Broncos and

I think that's a good

I think that's a good point Mr. Thomas from the standpoint it could be you can have up to X tables. So I think that's Can I mention one thing and I don't know I've never thought about this but I saw them at the house the big Oh

well I don't think you so cool but

they do have issues So the fire department is involved where you have to have GFI fixed electrical if you're going to put heaters in them and there are requirements that go along with I don't know that we're saying you can't do it And I think

yeah, I think you'd have to measure it out just because of the breakup and that seating area and that AD accessible piece of it might be an issue for you because those are pretty big. Sure. Okay. So, I guess uh other questions, comments. So, I'd sort of like to kneel down. You mentioned a couple of options for covering. So, are you leaning towards the umbrella route or

I haven't looked at it yet? I think somebody mentioned the other day that That just seems like a long distance to get out there. So probably start and you realize umbrella can't have advertising on them. So you can't have for lack of a better term a beer brand on them or something. Okay. Because that's that is considered signage. So you would have to go through that for signage if you decided to do that. So

just do I have to do this come before you guys when I figure out which umbrella? Well, I mean the board could if you know what your umbrellas are going to be and cover the tables. So but I'm thinking our colors are black and red. So I'd like to stick with those those two colors.

Yes. I would leave that up to the board's discretion whether they want to consider umbrellas at this point without something being in front of you. So, No. And we got to be able to walk through just to provide some kind of cover

and from what I understand from the brief that I read on your tables and chairs that they'll be in the wind. So, they're designed to be outside from wind standpoint. Yes, they are. Do you have a size on these tables?

The drawings that gave me these are designed to have four. How wide do you think wide sidewalk

does that show the measurement on a crank? I can't tell. It does somewhere. I was going to say it should if I'm not mistaken. Are you supposed That's the drawing that Brent gave me. Yes.

I think the intent was But I'm guess It has the ADA access label here between the tables.

What is that to the left of your person? This right here. Yes, that's the electrical box. That's that black electrical box out there. I thought that's at the corner. It sits. You are correct. Okay. I think this is where we think.

Okay. should be in the picture I passed. Is there any noise off the electric? Pardon me. Any noise because some transformers have a little buzz to them. I think it's So I think we need to go back and define some things at this point. So we need to define probably tables because you know there's a unknown whether she wants to do five or six potentially. Is that what I heard? Well that's the right

no we don't want you to have to come back. You mean maximum number? Correct. Thank you. So if you tell us you wanted five we approved five and you wanted seven tables you would have to come back. So we're trying to give you some latitude that if you'd want to add a table or two, you could without having them coming back to the board. That'd be awesome. So

and then the other piece, discussion around the umbrellas. So what we want to do about umbrellas if the board feels comfortable with moving forward without seeing umbrellas and saying that she can have umbrellas. So for members Just make sure it doesn't hang over the railing and block the ADA. Have a little latitude there.

Yes, I agree. The other thing is on the inside the doors, I guess. And my concern would be in warm weather, especially those doors get propped open. Yes. And so it makes sense to make them go away from the wall because those doors be

Well, they're talking about seating on both sides with the aisle down the middle. seating in front of the doors continually. Could we just say that we need to maintain the 60inch ADA standard and then that give them a little latitude to kind of adjust and to give Frank the approval to make sure it meets the ADA if you want to do it that way.

I think the other piece lampost.

Yeah, it sets off a little bit. It's about 4 feet off the wall, I think. So, I think at the end of the day it would be good as much as we could to try to keep the tables towards the railing and towards the wall that maybe we you know could allow a little bit additional space down that 5 foot quarter just from the standpoint of people having chairs back further or something. If we make it five feet and they try to make it five feet, then those chairs might get pushed back into it. So, but again, you know, we can allow that Frank's discretion if you want. So,

can I throw something out there? Sure. So, you know, I don't Most of you should be familiar in the middle of all. Sure. So close.

Does that accessibility? Well, possibly. If you're crossing the like if you look at the mouse here this way, then yeah, you're blocking off the AD access. If you're talking about roping off like this area, that should be okay. Um because Dark Side does something similar, they have it roped off north to south. So if there was an area like that and it didn't inhibit the ADA access, then I mean I think that'd be legal.

So the ADAT Yes. 60 in from the plate face from the base of your stand to the base of your stand. 60 in. And just an FYI, I looked up because I bought a couple umbrellas lately at Sam's Club. I did buy a 9 foot and they're on sale. This was a generation two tilts, cranks up and all that. 39 bucks on sale.

That's a deal. I wouldn't expected that. Yeah. And there was dark blue in the head, black and red, and a couple others, too. Yeah. So, I think ADA also speaks to a window of 80 in. So, if something is impeding below 80 in, such as an umbrella, it's also impeding on ADA. be careful of your umbrella height within the 60 in. Um, and if you do two 9 foot umbrellas, more than likely you're going to be within the 60 in looking at the drawing dimensions over the road. Correct. Yeah. Is there a preference to have umbrellas?

Well, I think the only issue your canal lever will take up more room. potentially and I don't know the table design table design looks like it's got a hole that's what I thought I was remembering that it did have Thank you Mark and just having multiple umbrellas the stem for the umbrella go down into that hole and then it also gives it some lateral support too. Okay.

Okay. So we've landed on the umbrellas. We've landed on the seating and the 60 in ADA and Mr. Zawatsky would monitor those if I remember correctly. You mentioned black and red. Is that something you're gonna insist on? Your discretion. My discretion. Love it. Well, what if they sound a crazy day?

And then uh so we need to get back to the table piece of what do we think would be the maximum tables that we would want to see in that area to give give some latitude there. Yeah, I don't know that seven would even work. It was just trying to throw out a number to give some latitude there so she doesn't have to come back to us in the future. And listen, I can't give enough servers. So, you know, we'll see.

Would you feel comfortable with starting out with six? I will Mr. Hayden, you wanted to make sure those were not in front of the doors if I remember correctly. Okay. Anything else? Doesn't require a public hearing since it's for a state review only. So, any other comments or anything but board members? You said I just need to sign. I'd be able to serve as long as I can.

I am putting together an agreement you would have to sign. And then we also are going to have to make an amendment to an ordinance that currently prohibits alcohol on any sidewalk. And so that'll require the council to to do that.

We have not had a formal discussion, but the council I intend I think that's coming up soon. Okay. Any other discussion? Not then I would look for a motion. All of our motions are in affirmative. It doesn't necessarily mean that's the way the vote will go, but we start out that way. I'm gonna try this. So, let me know if I miss something. Harrison moving to approve docket number 1025-12-C with the following conditions to maintain the 60in ADA with assistance from Frank. Um, umbrellas are okay to note the ADA clearance with colors at Frank's discretion. Hand size

hand size and six tables maximum and if they are to be um all towards the rail should not be in front of the door to not impede access and egress and pedestrians passing. And you would allow the two close to the building and allow tables close to the building and the contract with the town. Well, we won't address that. That'll be a town decision as far as whether they'll allow the alcohol or you're saying to put that as stipulation. It still has to be approved by the town. Yes.

Well, well, so that's and that's really not the outside part. That would be the next step would be alcohol. We keep those separate. It's not alcohol. It's using town property for outdoor seating. We did the same thing with dark side roasters when they came through, too. So, this board can do the aesthetics and the BCA can do the special exception for the outdoor seating, but the town council has ultimate say whether they can allow seating on town property as well as the alcohol piece. That be correct? Correct. Okay. Need a second. I'll second.

Okay. We have a motion and a second. So with that, I will do a roll call vote. Mr. Diller, approve. Mr. Thomas, approve. Mr. Heavner, approve. Mrs. Scalispy, approve. Mr. Msani, approve. Mr. Shrimp, approve. Mr. Johnson, approve. Mr. Hayden, approve. And I approve. So you're unanimously approved. So, if you will continue to work with Mr. Zachski, he'll help you with the rest of this. And uh if you have any questions, please ask him. And uh get in contact with him or Mr. Mororrow can contact him as well.

Have a good evening. We understand. Yes, ma'am.

We'll all be over after we'll all be there afterwards. So, Okay, moving on to docket number PC-1025-13-C4. Petitioner is vertical bridge. Property address is at 22271 US31 North. That's here in Cisro. aesthetic review overlay district application has been submitted concerning a tower for aesthetic reviews for the property located at that address. So as a petitioner here this evening if you would step forward state your name and address for the records and tell us a little bit about what you're proposing.

My name is Ryan Whley Horn. We have a business address 96 Street Indiana and I am here on behalf of Bridge and Horizon to a wireless communication facility on set property. It will be 195 tower with a 4ft. It will be a monole design portion of this compound will be a 60 by60 or So I guess you guys have questions for me. I can go on and on here. And so the plan commission members are aware this was before the BZA. They received the require uh special use approval as well as they got a variance to because this property has two fronts and because this there's now a So they got a variance of being allowed to put it in one of their front yards.

So that being said, overnight we had to be in the backyard. So, Mr. Zawatsky, the chain link fence fits code from what I've reviewed and understood. Yes, sir. It does. The landscaping for the 20 shrubs fits the ordinance exactly. If I'm not mistaken,

it does. So the I think you have the site plan. We asked on the BZA if you could install some 200 foot white conceal. He said that's not possible. So we tried. There are fake ones. So can you go back to that Mr. Zatki? This one. Yes.

Anglewood. It is.

It is. This access over here off US 31 will be completely cut off at some point in the future.

Go ahead. You probably know the answer to that.

And that's speculation probably is it probably would go on through at some point to the south. Yes, sir.

And you were willing to change the from a chain. If anybody's new schools, they have

thought that might come up. So,

brought a couple of renderings I don't know whe I think at this point if we can meet the code We would prefer to proceed with the plan in place. When we went to the PCA and this conversation was brought up, a PBC solid fence like that would certainly provide more equipment. And I had said that because of this particular history of it contaminants in the ground that it may be very difficult to keep alive. That being said, when it was brought up about the aesthetics and appearance put that in the bec and then it question.

So the issue became is that this board can look at aesthetics. So I think the question was correct me if I'm not correct on this was if we want to change to the white fence would this board say we don't have to have the trees. So the this board cannot say that because it's a development standards which is in our ordinance. So they would have to go back to the board of zoning appeals not to allow the trees which we would be having.

So that would be if this board decided that the aesthetics of the white fence now that it's been talked about this evening. That could be a deciding factor as long as the white fence is allowed in the ordinance. I believe it is Mr. Zawatski. Could you rephrase that? I believe the white allowed in the ordinance that it is allowed in the ordinance. It still would require the landscaping though.

Yeah. So that would be the issue that they would have to go back and get relief for the landscaping and then that would strictly be a board of zoning appeals and whether they would do that or not. So I took a step further thinking it might be a discussion and if you still wanted to allow a white fence and you wanted landscaping that might be sort of what it would look like. Good job.

So, but again, I think your ultimate goal if you go to the white fence, if I understood you correctly a minute ago, is you would do the white fence, but you would like to not have the trees. We would much vertical bridge would much prefer not to have to put in the plantings in this particular location because of the history of the property and they will be a process of maintaining

it's a consideration like I said I spoken to bridge about this they will be happy to do that [Music] when we had spoken It came back to whether or not the plate

and as I told you the issue was this board cannot speak for the board of zoning appeals. I'm assuming that's a a gamble we would take if you guys felt that it was appropriate to do so. Um, we're trying to be good partners here and figure out a solution that truly works. If you guys really want to see them, that's the way it is. There is a chance that because of the the ground situation that the plants don't grow or grow well then the white fence would be better would look better than to have a chain fence with

ugly shrubs and without any without any vegetation you know even some sort of ornamental type type rock or even river rock you know it's going to look look better you You said you you I'm sure you guys done a phase one. I believe you said you were moving on to a phase two.

How many years was that an actual junkyard back in there?

I don't know that any grew up here. So there same same here. So I I think that they're probably going to have issues there. And I I've also seen these put in the middle of farm fields or at the edge of farm fields and they've had issues with veget ornamental trees, etc. I can take a picture of one just outside of Atlanta where it's got it's got dead trees around it

because the herbicide residual.

Well, I don't know whether herbicide residual and I don't know what they're spraying on it, but they're they're pretty dead. So, and in that corner there where it's going to be at, I mean, it's changed around, but I'm not is going to look any better with ornamentals around a chain link fence or no ornamentals around a PVC fence is not going to look better there in the long I think it's a cleaner look I recently had to do one of these up in Portland in Allen County and it was very similar situation and it was in the middle of a park and they un that you know farm field and all the chemicals that are put on there very well and they

well I made a note I did have concerns and one of the concerns I would have been would have been the life of the plants and I know you know we're looking at what's there today but the concern is you know we have to look out further than that that there might be development across from them at some point. What do we want that to look like? So I think you know I was leaning towards if we required the plans that once a year those review would be reviewed by someone and they had to stay alive. So Oh yeah. So I believe that's part of the ordinance anyway. It is. I wanted to make sure that we would make sure that was included that

someone would report back to Mr. Zawatsky that they had reviewed them or that Mr. Zatsky would go look at them that those were maintained. So, but I think Mr. C, correct me if I'm wrong, but we can throw out a couple of options for consideration that we could propose the white fence without landscaping based upon relief. um the BZA or we could move forward with the chain link fence.

Yes, you could say that we would approve the plain white fence design or if that's rejected since we're not we don't want to have to come back, you could then propose the design with the chain link and all that you can make a motion so that there's a fall back if the BCA were to say no to the variance for the white fence. Can you not do the white? You you can't. But he's saying that if you want him to do plants, then he's just going to do a chain link fence and not mess with white. The chain fence is for you, right? We can say what we want to see. Yeah. But the chain link meets the ordinance.

And so that's what he's saying. Why spend the money on the nicer fence if he said he's going to be a good partner? Well, the concern is that development in that culdeac will probably none of us know for sure, but it will probably be an upscale development down the road. The only concern is what used to be there before too. So, they might have to haul out semi loads of dirt and stuff too to develop it. But that development would be prime development I would assume 10 years from now.

So is your chain link fence fence going to have slats in it? as proposed. No time to mostcate.

Sure. White slaps in the chain link. Would that sort of accomplish what you were thinking, Mr. Thomas? That would be a compromise. Yeah, compromise. They're still going to have Yes, I agree with you though. The tower over by the school looks a lot better with white

those inserts sometimes once they get older start looking pretty They crack with the heat and get dry. Now just trying to throw all the options on the table for discussion. So if it's good solid PVC, you wash it once a year. So are you willing to move forward with PDC insurance at this point? I would say no. Yeah, I only mean that from

the discussions that I had with bridge. You know, if we were to be able to meet with the Jen fence and the landings at the rel Other thoughts, comments? I am partial to the landscaping landscaping.

So if the board desires the landscaping then are we comfortable with that it stays chain link fence then as opposed to a white fence. I'm one where I I I'm not one for a lot of maintenance. So, and I can kill just about anything. Um, so I like the look of the white fence, even if there isn't any landscaping with, you know, a nice strip of rock, river rock, something like that, which is easy. And I I don't have the white fence, but I have the strip of rock. And I know even then keeping the weeds out and the you know, a little tough, but it's a lot easier to go and spray when you're not trying to protect, you know, landscape around it. And will the landscape be like maintained more than once a year because it can get pretty overgrown even the trees.

I don't know that. I mean, well down the road. I've been to many compounds that very much like you're saying don't look very well and there's others that are very well maintained to say a lot of it has to do with jurisdiction sure and I'm sure surrounding properties you know you got to keep it manicured because but right now there isn't anything

so many times in these situations regardless where landscaping many times for a solid issues. So it really comes down. So, do you think a vertical bridge would consider a white fence with maybe not necessarily 20 shrubs, but some shrubs?

I guess, but I would assume they will probably do whatever it is that you guys wish. Sure. They are looking for approval. They're trying to move forward with their project. So, if there's something that we can do to potentially facilitate that, speak up. Well, I'm trying to figure out come up with a plan here that potentially might work. I can't say 100% for sure. Yes. Unless you absolutely 100% make it a understood.

These would be conversations I would need to have my client.

Yeah. So, my I would I would definitely like landscaping is my opinion and ultimately it's up to the property owner to maintain and or replace. So ours is we have maintenance terms within our ordinance they have to abide by I believe so it's not up to us that would be up to enforcement which would be Frank um and then I think the chain link the end of the day um water towers are typically chain link gas equipment typically chain link I mean chain link run most utilities um if you look at this one just in my picture I don't go by here too much but of just white fence. It's going to be up. Um, it will probably grow at some point. It will require maintenance, too. Not to the extent of landscaping maybe, but I think even with the white fence up, you're going to want landscaping. It's going to be a sheet of white 100 ft box in the middle of nowhere. So, I don't know. There's a huge expense going from a galvanized PV or chain link to I don't know. Um, but I just think landscaping would be needed either way and I would be fine with chain link in that location.

So, who likes chain link fence and who likes white? I prefer the white. And I was impressed with one at the school by the school there. And you were you said 100 ft. Are you So this is a 60 by 60, right? So you're going

So no matter what, you've got to do some maintaining or landscaping all around that 100 foot area though, too. I guess I'm trying to figure out if the consensus is that it needs to be landscaping, then the issue becomes, do we want to require a white fence or do we want to leave it a chain link fence? Is it going to stay there forever? So if we just do the east and south plants right now 12

this board could suggest that but for relief from the 20 plants it would have to be a decision because I think the ordinance is it's one for every 10t something it's uh it's based on the lower area be back in the cell tower or it spells it out back there. Okay. landscaping standards up

telecommunication standard I think it's in like the top third of the page if I remember right one of the pages I don't remember which page it is

so they are thinking through this if we were to make a motion white trees say they come back and say no we're not going to do that so then we are going to say if we were to say no landscaping I'm just walking through this so they accept that go forward and the BCA says no we've already landscaping where do we end up just in a perpetual circle.

Well, I think we could approve the fence itself through the aesthetic that we would like a white fence. The piece that we really can't do anything is basically with the trees. So, you're exactly right. It would be and that's why Mr. Culp added the other piece. We could make it if this is what we want to see, but give the BCA some of the other option and we okay with the other option. So, we would send a couple options back to BGA. If they didn't approve the one, then the fall back would be the other one. Yeah. And then they don't have to accept the white fence. I mean, the fallback would be the white white fence and they may or may not accept that.

I think coming out of here, if the if it's a chain link fence and the ordinance allows a white fence, then through a steady review, we can require a white fence. The BCA is only going to deal with the shrub. Correct. Yeah. But if they're not shrubs up and they don't bushes up and they don't do it, can say no. That's true. They've already determined that they like bushes.

So then we go back here. What would they do? If we approve regardless, they would have to come here and try to convince you to have even though the ordinance says you need shy. Chevy sh because they would have to get on approved that we had not designed they would have to come back here but I'm going to texture so that would be a challenge but I think this board at least what I'm here cares about the color of the fence

and ultimately I think my goal would be to not

somehow the determination sort of clouded it and the white fence got brought up then we determined that peers that were not going to ask them to go back to the BCA for relief from the shrubbery potentially. So now it's do we want the chain link fence or do we want the light fence as part of the approval process would it require me to go back to DCA for

that is correct Mr. Hayden the question is what's it state about the type of I think it just says a 8ft fence or six foot fence and it doesn't it's it would be back in your back where you were looking at the trees. It's with the tree piece in the uh telecommunication piece. Yeah. Okay. Talks about a fence in there. I think the white looks looks sharp. I just I don't know how well. So, are you going to are you going to have to when you

when you start the process on this site, are you going to have to dig down so far and excavate some of the dirt that's there and bring in new chances? Who knows? So, it's going to have to be one way or another.

Yeah. Hopefully make these things as long as possible. Is the chain Yes, it says security. So, what about the US? That is why they're here. Yeah,

that's a good point. And the positive is the fence we're talking about actually does a really good job even in a tall SUV of not being able to see in the property itself and what else is there and there's always pieces of something there. So it it does a good job of of making it look cleaner.

No question. Is there a reduction in amount of plings? for like like Dan said um for the uh for the cell tower is there what

was there a reduction in the number or the was there a different amount of plannings required for a tower no it's specific 10 foot on center minimum think that's that's what he shows here 10 foot Where is that? What page on the overlay district? It's in the uh the US 31 overlay district.

Yeah. What page? So I think the question there Mr. Cult since it's already a piece of property prior to the overlay district and it's designated for the other uses doesn't carry any grandfathering. The only way to make sure We have a white

motion. Okay. I guess we're ready for a motion. Thank you. So, I guess my question is, do you want it to be contingent or just because if we say contingent, you guys say no. I don't know where we go from this point. They can't I don't think they have to go back to the DA. They would have to come back here for approval of whatever. Well, I understand that. But so do I make it contingent? Do I not make it contingent? I don't know if I understand the full ramifications of the question. I wouldn't I would just

So say they say no to what we approve, do they want to go back? I guess they could still change. Well, I think the at this I don't think an issue I think ultimately what happens from my perspective anyway once you guys get a approval based on the conditions which clearly the ordinance allows you to do they have to do okay there's no way around it or else you guys can hold the building permit they can't move forward okay gotcha so President Eric

before you get into that add something else. So from that standpoint though, I think we need to have some type of inspection to make sure they requiring those shrubs they stay alive. But then also over a period of time that uh you know that there's a commitment that fence will be maintained as well and that we ask them to a written commitment that the landscaping is uh maintained and is alive and that that fence is maintained just to be on the safe side and that can be a yearly review or however you want to do it. Mr. Zawatski you can do that if you would like or we can petitioner to do a yearly review and submit that to you.

I prefer to maintain it myself. You prefer to what? You would like to review it yourself to make sure that it meets that the bushes are alive and the fence is maintained. Even if we have I'd have to still do it.

Okay. Let me see if I can capture this. Mr. President Hayden. I make a motion to approve docket PC1025-13-C4 vertical bridge and air storage for an aesthetic review with it being a white PV PV fence and evergreen trees every 10t total pera agreement. and also a yearly inspection of by the petitioner of the trees and the fence to make sure that it's maintained and the town would like or the plan commission would like written approval or written commission. I think Mr. Hayden had that in there.

Oh, sorry. Yeah, I said petitioner. Sorry. Thank you for that clarification. So, it'll allow Mr. I mean, I would I would prefer the the owner of the property to be proactive and address it and not rely on our plan director to

reach out. These sites were visited once a month or as needed for maint I mean I think I I think the intent is if if you see something fix it. If somebody gets has it reported back to you fix it. If not, Frank is going to visit it as well, but we would prefer that the property owner maintain the property themselves and not rely on the town or the neighbors to fix it. Fair.

Sure. And should we include a time frame that will allow the ships to be replaced in within four months or something? If we know they're dead, they have four months to replace those. So, it's not openended. probably 60 or 90 days maybe.

And I was thinking in the winter we're notbody out there doing this. So trying to be realistic that they need a time frame and I would say four to six months would be reasonable that those get taken care of with also adding updated maintenance items at six months. be within six months. To be repaired within six months.

Okay, we have a motion. Harrison, I'll second that motion. Okay, we have a motion and a second roll call. Mrs. Gilispy, approve. Mr. Msani, approve. Mr. Shrimp, approve. Mr. Johnson approve. Mr. Hayden approve. Mr. Dillard approved. Mr. Thomas approved. Mr. Heavner approve. And I approve.

So you're all approved. Did you if you'll get with Mr. Zwatski and uh make sure that you know you understand what those commitments were and then also the requirement that we want would want a recorded document that those conditions or commitments would be ma. I'll type up a letter of conditions and then you'll deal with it from there. Call me tomorrow or whenever it's good for you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. When were you planning on having that up?

In two years, you said that six months shut down and Yeah. If it were we were at this point and we could move forward with clean phase one. It would be first of

what's hard to say. A lot of variables. A lot of it has to do with topography things that are in front of it. patches of trees. Um they kind of designate some of their coverage maps based on indoor outdoor trying to accomplish as big of a indoor coverage as they possibly can and that translates back out to cover. This is nothing from Verizon, but from what I can tell from the sites that I've worked on, it appears that they go anywhere from one and a half to two miles. In the old days, the equipment would go miles. new technology that is much faster but it just doesn't frequ

Yes sir. Thank you. Thanks for your patience.

Okay. Nothing else under new business. We'll move on to plan director's report.

Good evening, plan commission. I have in front of me here the latest version of the director's report. This is for September of 2025. Permanent revenue for the month of September 2025 was $6,679. Brings us up to a year to date of $41,225. the same time last year, September of 2024, we were at $5,612 for the month and 46,394 for the year. That's a difference for the month of September, a plus 1,67 and a minus for the year of $5,169. We issued a total of 25 building permits for September 2025. 13 were for inside the corporate limits, no new homes. We issued another 12 out in Jackson Township. No new homes there either. Estimated cost of these projects was $1,192,199. Uh we have a BZA meeting scheduled right here at the town hall for October 23rd, 7 p.m. at 2025. Uh that I that committee does have items on the agenda and will meet. That's my report. Any have anybody have any questions for me?

Anything for Mr. Zawatski? seen that and we would move on to president's report. The only thing I had this evening and I I'll just sort of make it not spend a lot of time on it since uh the last petition took longer than probably we thought it was going to originally but uh you know in the future as we will start adding the talking about ordinances and I think out of the last meeting you know we sort of asked everyone to come back with some thoughts about what the changes they might like to see in some of those ordinances and I don't know if anyone's had an opportunity to do that. If you would, you know, tell us what you you're thinking and what your thoughts might be in that particular case. So for me to sign

maybe you know we've sent through several protruding signs to the BCA or what is of course well I I have that with me tonight for discussion so just as a template to start thinking about some things and working through it. So, Mr. Zawatsky, I know we've kept sort of track of some things, so you just want to you have the list that you can just briefly touch upon what some thoughts have been thrown out over the last few months or year.

Well, um we've discussed uh poll signs in particular. So, uh and I think that one of the poll signs are they're all over town. They're prohibited in every district uh for the record. Uh but they are everywhere. One thing that's important to mention is even if we change the ordinance to allow or change or not allow these, all the ones that are there will stay because they are legal non-conforming or grandfathered. Um but uh I would propose changing the definition of uh of what a pole sign actually is. For example, if it's extremely low to the ground, um, we could consider that a monument sign. Uh, with certain criteria, I mean, it can be made to look exactly like a monument sign. You really literally couldn't tell the difference. Um, we have, uh, variances for projecting sign, which, uh, Mr. Hayden just mentioned. Um, one of the things about, uh, the projecting sign is that, um, I think I would also propose a definition change of what makes a projecting sign because all the projecting signs that we've ran through the BCA for a variance, I think a hanging sign is more an appropriate definition because they're mounted to the wall with a uh apparatus that sticks out and then the sign hangs from it. Um, so I think that uh we could change that definition pretty easily to make a hanging sign be a little more appropriate. Uh, could be a little bit friendlier. Um, Mr. Strong and I have also discussed um a certain range of signs if they meet certain criteria such as material size um and zoning districts um that we could uh absolve those signs

from going through the aesthetic review um if they meet certain criteria. And Dan has a pretty good list of that stuff. um off the top of my head that's what I have.

So anyway, you know, if you everyone would continue to think about those and needless to say, Mr. Zodkin and I talk a lot about, you know, the ordinances and some of the things shoring up some of the definitions because we know there's a few definitions that we definitely need to work on. But, you know, the intent is is to start working through the process and we certainly know we won't change everything. A lot of this will get done when we get with a consultant and start working through it. But I just want everybody to start thinking about it that we're not spending once we get a consultant that we spend hours upon trying to decide what we potentially know that we would like them to look at. So start thinking about some of the things that we've dealt with that you think potentially we could change to make it better. You know, as uh Mr. Watsky said there, you know, one of the things that we've heard a lot about is with small businesses going through aesthetic review can be expensive for $200 or going through aesthetic review. So, the potential of coming up with six materials that those signs could be made out of and there seems to be a pretty standard range from what research I've done of materials. And as long as those are those materials and they're a certain size and everything, then you know, Mr. Zawatsky would have the discretion that he could turn around roughly in 24 hours if they wanted to and it would definitely save them some money. So, we're trying to figure out some of those things to make it easier on some of the businesses and step two as we go through some of these processes because it can get a little bit cumbersome as you know especially when we're sending them through uh planning commission then they got to go through a study reviews and then we're sending them off to the BZA and you know that could be potentially a three-month process for small business. So trying to get this down where it's a little more manageable and to make it easier on Mr. Swatski and his team as well. But I did, you know, go back to what we talked

about a few months ago and I just brought it back so everybody can start thinking about it again. And I'm not saying we want to do it, but if there's things that we can do over the next few months of making some changes on a small scale, we certainly could get that list together. Maybe that's five or six changes and make those changes and get those through the council knowing that the whole process of going through the ordinance process could take us up to six months or to a year that maybe there's some changes we might want to do before that. So this is basically what we looked at before and I figured everybody probably didn't ham it. Yes, sir. Oh, I'm sorry. Thought you had a comment. I apologize. So with that, you know, just touching upon, you know, the exhibit A is what we had in there prior to 2015 as far as for a permanent ground sign. After that's when we added in the pole sign definition and the monument sign, even though we had the monument sign before, that seemed to cloud the issue of what's pole sign and a monument sign. And then, you know, you move on to the second page of that and that would be our current page in our ordinance as far as what the ground sign would look at. And moving on there, then item C to I'm sorry, exhibit B then would be adding the pole sign into the permitted sign. This the only change we'd have to make there to add that as a permitted sign to simplify that process. And then what we the next page would be what it is today just to show that the poll sign was in there and some of those

changes. Moving on to exhibit C was doing exactly what Mr. Zodsky said and that would be change the pole sign definition and I don't know if that fits what's everyone's thinking but we talked about landscaping at 4 in off the ground didn't seem a appropriate amount of space for landscaping so I stuck in 6 in and that the post could not be any higher than 20 in off the ground which seems to be the biggest percentage of what we have around town for pole sign currently

that's the horizontal Yes. And you know, we may want to tweak that to spell out the post or whatever it is. Next page was just uh again what's currently in our ordinance for comparison. And then exhibit D would be the change in our ordinance to cover the permanent sal. What would be allowed? How many on a street? What's the difference spacing between them? how tall they can be and those type things. Spelling out that both sides only count as one side. Then we would have to change our aesthetic review. And that would be item number 5.9 and just adding something similar to there that we could say that uh that a poll sign would be allowed as a exception in the NC neighborhood zoning district. And that seems to be the one that we dealt with the most. And then last was just a picture that we had previous of a sign that we sort of took the measurements off to take a look at and compared to some of the other signs. So anyway, just, you know, maybe take that back and look at it and, you know, come up with some thoughts on it. If you have thoughts now, we certainly can talk about them, but I was trying to sort of come up with a template of what we might want to start looking at and how we might want to create it. But I know the poll sign's been on the radar for a while. So I'd at least like to get a consensus of a poll sign. Not necessarily that we move forward with getting it approved today, but okay, let's get one behind us. And then if we want to move it on to the council, we certainly can do that. But I starting to get some of these things short up that we can get some of the things we've talked about over the last year or so. So we don't because we're eventually going to get another pole sign or a monument. we're going to have to deal

with. So, do we have any idea what how far that is up off the ground? I think it is where I got the 20 in. I know it is.

Actually, that's the one where I took most of the measurements. Then I measured a couple other down there, but it seemed like theirs was 20 in. And that seemed logical. Quick question. Not that area, but how is our size compared to the surrounding jurisdictions?

Well, I think we're very comparable from the standpoint a lot of our neighboring municipalities at one time and I know there's been some updated UDOS and I say that I've gone back and looked at both of those, but when our ordinance was written, a lot of the ones that are existing today, the same company wrote a lot of those ordinances. So, I'd like to think they're comparable. I'd have to look and see. It's been a few years since I looked at sign ordinance,

but the UDO's I can't say that I've gone in and looked at the Hamilton County UDO or Westfield has a UDO now, and I can't say that I've dug into theirs. I've looked at it, but I I couldn't trust my memory. But 20 years ago, everybody used to say other,

but certainly, you know, when you're out driving around, take a look at those things. I Mr. Hayden, I know, has brought it up a couple of times, things that he's seen. I know Mr. Dillard has as well. So, when you're out driving around, look at the things that you like and you don't like. We got

Well, I I'll just state as far as I know, but I'm sure that compared to some areas, we may or may not be and some of those are there's different if you go into the Caramel area, they have quite a few overlay districts. how many they have, but I've noticed that in each of those overlay districts, they have quite a variation amongst those signs compared to for each district. So, How do you keep an Excel sheet of fire?

It's funny you mentioned that because The most hardest thing that I deal with is finding the history of the variances. But yes, we do keep a spreadsheet. Um the spreadsheet is a relatively recent development though, so it doesn't go back quite so far. The new planning system that we are maybe halfway putting together and uh in training on now is designed to help with that very thing. Um so that we can track the that for example the one of the properties we looked at today the GW Pierce property dozens of varian has been done over the years and then some of those properties have been subdivided uh ownership has changed in a couple of cases it's just complicated and tough to track so um yeah we are working on that very thing

over the last five years all the approved or evened We do have that for sure.

It's when I got here, it was a pure paper system. Everything was in a box and a file. Um, and then we have to an electronic system uh since the day I got here. And our assistant, she's been diligently scanning every page and labeling it and uploading it for close to four years now. So,

but you do bring up a great point because, you know, if you read zoning and things, if you have a lot of things consistently going through the board of zoning appeals, I think The recommendation is that you take a look at those to see if you want those continue to go there or you need to modify your ordinances. So, you brought up a great point. I think can't speak for you. That's probably what you were thinking. The things that keep coming to the for the zoning appeals. Should we take a look at the ordinance and say, can we streamline that and change that? Maybe they don't have to.

I would be happy to I'd be happy to share anything you like, but I will need you to be specific. Give that man a thumb drive. Say you might be able to have Joel just to go through the monthly ones and take a look at them and just the what? Go through the monthly reports. Oh, yeah. We can give that readily. Yeah, I was going to say maybe just have her go through the monthly report and say, "Okay, what were the ones on these?" And she lists the five that

there and then you go through and see how many times that's in a three-year period that that particular item went to the board of zoning appeal. Oh. Oh, I see. Oh, that's way simpler than what I was thinking. So, you just want a record of the repetitively applied for all. So do take your sheet and copy it and drop it in summarize it for you. Okay. It'll give you a nice little sum.

Sure. That probably doesn't mean that everything's going to go away from the BCA, but there'll certainly be some things and that we've talked about, at least I can think of a couple that, you know, that probably we could streamline so they basically wouldn't have to go there as much. So,

it seems to be a bit cyclical, too. Uh, when I first got here, we had height variances for accessory structures every month for a long time. And then we had won in the past couple of years. So, it's Yeah, it'd be interesting to look and see exactly what's as a developer is what the rules are. So, want to follow it now or they would try to push this. I don't know.

Okay. Any other discussion on that? Don't want to keep everyone here all night. So outside of signs, I think it's critical, not tonight, but in the future, I think we talked about last time different districts what what we want to see and what we don't want to see. Yes.

And then there's probably a few projects coming down and I know Mr. L was always mentioning that newer generations maybe don't have to take care of properties. and maybe like town houses a little better. So, I don't know if we have thoughts around maybe what that should start to look like. I I don't know. I don't know where I generation, so I I just know that's been a topic. Okay, good comments. That's what we're looking for.

One thing I know we're seeing more and more You having children are moving back children homes. So it's like like in quarters or

they're essentially building a separate home. Sometimes it's a full size house, sometimes small.

And that makes good sense. I think we've only had that couple of times over the years, but you are right. Okay. Well, I get asked about it all the time and I tell them what the rules are and most of them go away. I think the county

that's within rural not within Yeah. Right.

Thank you, Mr. Any other discussion? Not I don't want to keep everybody all night, but I want us to continue to try to move forward. So, we're not here in three months going get this some of this behind us for discussion. bring up what? Oh, no. Go right ahead. Let's talk about chickens. I get asked that a lot. So, anyway, moving on.

So, thanks everyone for being here this evening. And with that, we'll move on to legal council report. Nothing else at this time. Okay. Thank you. Uh board member comments. Seeing none, then our next planning commission meeting will be November the 12th. That will be here town hall 7:00 p.m. And with that, I'd look for a motion to adjourn. Mr. Chairman, Dennis Trump, I move we adjourn. Thank you, Mr. Shrimp. Thank you, Mr. Msani. So, we have a motion and second to journ. All in favor signify by saying I. I. Any opposed? Meeting adjourned. Thank you all.