County Council - Regular Meeting

Review that was taken as information only 13 B was action taken regarding the discussion of negotiations Incident to propose contractual arrangements concerning owners represent representative services with regard to the proposed Chester County Law Enforcement Center and Magistrate Court Mr. Hester if you want to lead us off with Some explanation and discussion.

Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman so The sheriff and myself are requesting to move forward with engaging with an owner's representative to represent the county moving forward with the whole process as an owner's rep. The Keith Corporation is the one that we have settled on and the one we have had previous discussions on. Really what I'm asking counsel for is to authorize me publicly to sign a contract with the Keith Corporation once the attorneys are comfortable with the language in that contract, which... they will be working on. Just for the public and for everybody to understand, an owner's representative for the county provides independent oversight and serves as an owner's advocate throughout the planning, design, procurement, and construction phases of a large project such as a law enforcement, detention center, and magistrate court. This role helps coordinate architects, engineers, contractors, consultants in the process of selecting and negotiating terms, prices, contracts with all of those individuals involved. It would follow the state procurement as well as county procurement, which we follow state procurement. We're actually a little more restrictive. on certain things that would follow our procurement process. They identify and address risks before they result in delays or increased costs and ensure that the project remains aligned with the owner's operational goals and expectations. An owner's representative enhances accountability to all those involved, and we know from previous projects that many times if we don't have the staff as a rural county to be involved in that level of involvement on such a large project from the architect to the engineers to the planning phases to the construction phases to even the post-construction phases. And so it protects the owner's interest and increases the likelihood that the project will be completed on time within budget. in accordance with the required quality standards. And that's one of the jobs, is if this council sets a budget of X dollars, that is the responsibility of this owner's rep, is to ensure and find cost savings and work through change orders and other issues that arise. And so the Keith Corporation is probably one of the most extensively experienced and qualified. I will say that... Many contractors, the architect firms, the engineering firms, they really, when someone like us start talking about an owner's representative, it causes them to take a pause because they know that means an increased and enhanced level of oversight. Although the county remains in the early stages of planning, it's important to engage an experienced professional who can advocate for Chester County's needs and proceeding with engagement will ensure that the Keith Corporation is involved from the outset. So the county has not purchased land. The county has not even... County staff has not even come to you all with a piece of land that we're ready to purchase at this time and still in talks with numerous landowners and trying to find that right piece of land before we come so again involving them early allows us to have a party to negotiate on our behalf and ensure that we get the best deal and It represents a prudent and positive step toward protecting the county's interest in promoting a successful development of a project of this magnitude.

I'll invite the sheriff if you have any comments. Mr. Hester, you covered a bunch there, but do you have anything you'd like to add?

Not to belabor the point, but since I've been involved in county government, I've seen the county engage in consultants, or people who have specific expertise to manage projects. Dennis Cork, Alliance. But this is even more unique because we're asking to engage in a company that has a great reputation throughout the world. They have specific expertise in building buildings like this and managing those buildings. And we're asking them to represent us in building what will be probably the largest or most expensive investment this county's ever made. And so the purpose of that, make sure we get a quality building. Purpose of that is to make sure we get the most value out of what we invest. And so I think this is a, important part of this process. We are asking for it to be done now because there's a lot that we have to continue to work with and plan. Just like Mr. Hester said, we don't know where we're going to build it or where we want to build it. We're engaged in conversations, but we've not settled on that. That's been a very difficult process. We haven't engaged with a general contractor. We have minimally with an architect, but there's a lot more that we need to get done. So I'm asking you to allow us to move forward with this. It's an important step that we need to make in order to achieve our goals of getting a new law enforcement center, something that is absolutely necessary for this community.

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, if I may follow up with a couple of comments. There may be a question as to, you know, there's going to be the people that are going to automatically think that what the sheriff and I have communicated, that there's already things that are in motion. And that's simply not true. What people have to understand is, is that if we don't start now with those discussions, this is already an 18-month to a two-year process of from the time you start schematic design to developmental design to the RFPs, the RFQs, all the process of selecting and permitting before even one piece of earth gets moved, you're talking 18 months to two years. And so if we don't start now, And we don't engage and get someone negotiating, even though we don't have that piece of land to start that schematic design and that developmental design, which are the key early phases of that project. We've already done spatial studies. But if we don't do that now, we're just going to keep putting ourselves four, five, six months, a year further behind and risk the cost to the citizens of having to transport prisoners out of this county jail to other counties. And that cost would be astronomical. It would be staggering to a budget like ours. And so we're not trying to rush the process. We're trying to actually be prudent and proactive in that process. And then the last thing I want to make a point of is that with the owner's rep, we have, within our contract language, we are guaranteed savings on this project equal to... whatever the percentage total cost would end up being to the owner's rep. And so in layman's terms, what that means is if, and I'll just use rent, please do not take the numbers I throw out there. This is not what we're saying. But if their cost was a million dollars and they don't find us documented $1 million savings, And we don't pay them a million dollars. We pay them only the amount they save us through negotiations, through finding cheaper costs for steel or for whatever it is. But that's written in the language. That's what it all boils down to. And so the taxpayers do not lose with this. It's a win-win for us.

All right, so I guess I will see if there's a motion on the floor.

I'd like to make a motion to authorize Mr. Hester to move forward with engaging the Keith Corporation as the county's owner's representative with regard to the proposed Chester County Law Enforcement Center and Magistrate Court.

Second. All right, we have a motion and a second. Is there any discussion?

Yeah, I got it. I mean, I told the sheriff a long time ago I was in favor of jail. We don't know how much this man is going to charge us. I hadn't heard that number tonight. I hadn't heard it ever that I'm aware of. And we don't have anybody here in this public. I don't want to have to listen to the fact that we slid this in after everybody left. And I'm not going to vote for it.

This wasn't slid in. This is a part of our meeting.

I'm slid in right now.

This is stating on our agenda action taking after. We're here to engage.

Do you know how much it's going to cost?

So speaking to the cost, no one will know what it's going to cost until... excuse me, just one minute, until there is a final decision made by council on what they would spend, it'll be a percentage, okay? And that percentage will be 3 point, what is it? I think 3.85%.

3.85% or whatever it is.

Total cost minus land fees, minus their fees, and minus what we call the soft cost, project cost. And so... with a guaranteed savings of 3.85% documented cost savings throughout the project. So if they save us on the negotiation with the architect, and we don't even know what our total project cost is going to be. We know where we would like it to be. But the goal is for that project cost to be lower. Thus, schematic design and the developmental design, because you can't even... start making those determinations. We know cap-wise what the county can afford, but we won't know all those. So, yeah, that would be how the cost would be set up. And we did discuss that previously. That's been discussed with this council.

And for the record, we were just in an executive session, and those numbers you just said were told to all of us then. That's correct. Everything you just said was told to us in executive session. Yes, sir. And so that's not news to any of us. Yes, sir.

Are they going to get 3.85% of $80 million? Is that what you said?

Again, you can't, let's not put things into the citizen's head that are not numbers that, that's a made-up number at this point of what the project, that is, until we go to schematic design, developmental design, We can't use a number that's not a real number. But I will tell you, let's say it's a $78 million project. And I made that number up. That is a made-up number. And that's the cost of construction, not your soft cost, your land and all that included, right? And so our cap is land, soft costs, and everything. So realistically, the project cost might be in the 60s, low 70s, is hopefully we're down lower than that. But they would get 3.85% of that only if they save us 3.85% of that.

Did you bid out this contract or did you just make 3.85% because the man came and talked to us?

We actually interviewed other owners' representatives. And just as I told you in executive session, because I said this in executive session, The owner's reps are not all equal. They're not all the same. We've vetted owner's reps. We talked to Lancaster. I talked to their owner's rep that's building their jail, right? And again, it is their scope of how much they're involved is not the same of the scope here. They're a larger county with different resources. They have project managers. They have multiple project managers. So you can't compare every owner's rep for apples to apples. That wouldn't be. So this one, we don't have to bid those out. Again, that's why I come to you all and present you with the contract. And I presented you all with the other people that we talked to as well. And so then you all legislatively make the decision by procurement professional services do not have to be bid out. We choose those professional services because it's not comparing equal service, correct?

That's what you say. I'm not going to vote for it.

Okay.

Is there any other discussion? You know, we've been talking a long time about the needs out at the jail. You know, every day that passes, I think your employees have a harder job because of the facility. And I see heads shaking in the back, affirmatives. This is about the safety of your people. This is about the safety of the folks who are in those walls. We want to keep them safe. And that jail is old. We need to get moving. I don't see waiting a month is going to change anything. Nothing's going to change. Hold on, let me finish. So it's not going to change. All it's going to do is another month's going to go by. We don't actually meet in two weeks. And so it's important, I think, to keep this moving. Ms. Mosley, just as you said, this has been on the agenda. We've had discussions. We've had workshops. We've had meetings. Plenty of discussion about this. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that we're working in this direction. I'm so glad that we're doing this at this time and not even before we bought the land or even know which land we're going to buy. As you said, Mr. Hester, that's still in consideration. You have brought this council nothing yet, and I'm glad that we're getting, hopefully we'll get these folks on board to help us with that process. This is a huge project for this county, and we want it to go well.

Let me say this. I remember... the previous executive session that we discussed this. And then I went and did my research like I always do. Most professional, most services like this charge anywhere between one and 5%. That's standard across the country, one and 5%. I remember the administrator brought us some other percentage numbers of other people that he talked to. I'm making my decision based on that, the information that he brought us, and I'm also making my decision based on talking to the sheriff and having an actual physical meeting with him where I actually toured the jail in Charlotte-Mecklenburg, and he used an owner's rep as well So I think this is the way we need to go so that we can save this county some money.

I just want to make it clear. We cannot get where we need to go unless we take this action tonight. We don't know where we stand. But this is a necessary. We've chosen to use this path with this method, which we deem to be the most cost effective for the county in the long run and the most incentivized to give us a good product and what we want. There's a lot of thought going into that. This isn't an off-the-cuff decision, something we decided in the last 15 minutes.

And let me ask you a question also, Sheriff Dorsey, if you don't mind. I know that we have discussed possibly, if we don't move on this, in the very near future with our jail as it is, how much does it cost to house inmates? If we were to have to ever do that for any reason, just because of the decline of our jail, how much would that cost the county, just as a general number, if we had to house our inmates?

Multiple place. I think a conservative number would be $100 to $150 a day per inmate. And that's if we can find a county that would take them.

Yeah.

Because other counties are struggling with overcrowding as well. And I have told each and every one of you this individually. We don't want to go down that road. Okay.

I'm sorry, I don't want it to go down the road for that reason, for the taxpayer's money. This is a solution that is feasible, is timely. Actually, the jail is so outdated, I fear, and I've said this to you and I've said this to multiple people, It's not just about getting a new jail. It's the safety of those officers. Everybody, every officer you have and we have in this county every day faces something, some sort of danger. And that's really, that's what drives the motivation for me to just keep this moving forward and do what's best for this county and its citizens and everybody that we represent.

Everybody. Yes, ma'am. And on behalf of them, thank you.

Yes.

Let me say this, too. When I did go up and tour the Charlotte Mecklenburg Jail, Sheriff McFadden, one of the things that we discussed was the age of his jail. His jail is 30 years old, and it looks like it's new. And one of the reasons why it looks like it's new is because it was designed properly. He used the owner's rep. He used one to build it. He's using one to maintain it. His jail's 30 years old. Ours is, how old is ours?

Built in 1972.

Yeah, so it's- Three years before I was born. Yeah, so it's very old. Just say very old. But another thing that he discussed with me is that we have to consider and think about the fact that when people go down to our jail in Chester, black, white, blue, green, whatever color, They are innocent until proven guilty. And you cannot have them in a facility like we have in Chester and sleep and feel comfortable at night with that. I wouldn't want anybody in my family to be down there at that jail in the conditions that it's in. And then after going and visiting the one in Charlotte Mecklenburg and seeing that the conditions are far, a lot better, I think that's what we need to be. And this owner's rep is a great idea. This is what we need to do to get this process started.

And let me be clear. This jail didn't become this way for the past seven years since I've been sheriff. I inherited this thing, and it was in bad shape. And we've been putting duct tape and bailant twine everywhere we can to keep this thing afloat. And it's that serious. And every one of you have looked at it. Every one of you have been in there. You know what I'm talking about. What we're asking tonight is to have somebody represent us, represent the county of Chester and the best interest of our county. Why wouldn't we want something like that? Have we ever invested this much money in any building in our county? No. And why would we not want to make sure it's built with top quality, high quality? And what's my famous saying that I say up here? We don't need a Taj Mahal, but we need to make sure we have a quality building that's going to last, that's going to outlast us, hopefully outlast our great grandkids. So that's why this is important. And Ms. Raines, what you said is exactly right. We can't do anything else until we get through this step. And I can assure you, I can assure this county that everything we're doing is intentional, methodical, deliberate. We're making sure that we're dotting all of our I's and crossing our T's. But we're beyond the point of waiting another month. Let's get this thing signed. Let's get these people on board. Let's move to finalizing these plans. Let's find a place to build this, and let's get this project done.

Mr. Chairman, before you go, Sheriff, and for everybody out there that's listening, it's going to watch the 3.85% and the guaranteed savings of 3.85%. That guaranteed savings is not an industry norm. We negotiated that with Keith Court. In fact, to the point, the owner negotiated that with you and I to get this contract to guarantee us that savings. His people that worked for him when we were sitting at the table, they looked at him like he had three heads. And they were not real happy about... his guarantee of that savings or they don't get paid. So that is not an industry norm. That is what we negotiated with them. And so while the percentages can vary, you don't get that promise from anyone else. And so to your point, too, and to Ms. Mosley's point, my previous career as a chief deputy for the St. Louis County Sheriff's Office, we ran a jail that had 1,500 inmates. And I loved it when other counties didn't meet the Florida model jail standards. And I got shipped inmates because I had plenty of room for them. And I charged the other sheriffs $100 a day. I made about $7 million a year on housing other people's inmates because sheriffs couldn't or counties didn't take care of their jails or meet the governmental standards. And so that's what potentially would end up happening to us. And I think in South Carolina, 100 to 150 is a very accurate number for those inmates.

Yes, sir.

So as we're discussing this, two things I'll say. One is, you know, for a project this complex, this big, expensive, I think it would be a huge mistake if we didn't have an owner's rep. And I've come to that conclusion. I've come to that conclusion. The second thing I want to say is because you and Mr. Hester, y'all have done a really good job of communicating to this council. We've had the town hall, the workshop. We've had... We've discussed it in open session. We've also had executive sessions where we've talked about contracts and that sort of thing. I feel very comfortable. Of course, I mean, time will tell, but I feel very comfortable with the Keith Corp. I think they're, just as one of you said, they're one of the best in the nation, best in the world. They have the experience. I, too, toward the... Jail up in Mecklenburg, and that was really eye-opening. What a huge place. And they are the ones who are responsible for maintenance. And so they understand buildings in ways that none of us will. And they've done it for more than 30 years, that building. So they know things that we just wouldn't know. And so to have them at the table helping us, I think, is the right move.

And I want to see this project keep moving. And Mr. Wilson, they are contractually obligated to seek what is best for Chester County. That's who they're beholden to, the citizens of Chester County and this council. Why would you not want an expert advocating on your behalf to make sure you get a quality product and get the best product for your money? The only reason would be is if you thought you could do it yourself. Correct, and I will tell you, Max Dorsey knows nothing about building jails.

I'm glad they were all at the point where we understand this is a big, complex project. Yes, sir. And we can't do it alone. Is there any more discussion? All right, so we have a motion to approve. Mr. Hester, moving forward, authorizing a contract with the owner's rep of the Keith Court. That was your motion, right, Ms. Moser? Yes, ma'am. We had a second. Is there any more discussion? No. If not, I'll call for the question. Those in favor, raise your hand and say aye.

Aye. Those opposed?

All right, so that's six to one. That brings us to council comments. Comments from council? All right. I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.

I'll make a motion we adjourn.

Second. All right. All in favor, adjourn.