Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Yeah, we don't have our clerk. She's She's She's back. Yeah. Oh, good. She is. Oh, I'm sorry. Good evening, everybody, and welcome to the Ches Beach, Maryland Planning and Zoning Commission meeting of August 27th, 2025. We are going to call the meeting to order and roll call, please. We'll start at my left, my right. Rachel Weaver here. And I'm Cindy Greenold. Mary Sue Graceman, Christopher Smith,

and um Madame Clerk, please for the record consider commissioners Brown, Requ and Han are absent tonight. Okay. And if we could stand please for the pledge of allegiance. Ready to begin. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the stands one indivisible with liberty. [Music] Okay. On agenda item number three, the approval of the August 27, 2025 planning and commission agenda. Do I hear a motion?

Motion to approve. Uh do I have a second? Second. Any questions? Any changes? All in favor? I A. It's been approved. Number four, approval of the minutes of the July 23rd, 2025 planning commission meeting. Do I hear a motion to approve? Motion to approve. Any second? I'll second. Okay. Any changes or questions? No issues. Uh, all in favor say I.

I. Thank you. Any public cl We see nobody in the audience for a public comment. Um, and if I might suggest, um, anybody who's watching streaming, I would recommend if you would like to attend next month's meeting, we will probably have a public hearing on signage. So, we would like to offer anybody to come up and and give us some comment on our agenda item for next month. Okay. Number six is old business signage, our old friend. And we're getting to the to the finish to the finish line here because it's really coming along. Um, let's go ahead and quickly Okay, now we've got, of course, this memo. So, everybody get your memo close at hand here. there. And as you can see, as you can see, Miss Franklin has made a few changes. Uh, Miss Franklin, would you like to go over please with us uh a little bit about what the changes would include and anything else you'd like to say about uh the work you've been doing, which I I say is great job, Miss Franklin, on the signage. You've done a an admirable job trying to put all of our ideas together, and I think it's really looking tight. I think it's really looking complete. Um, we're we're, as I say, getting down to the final stages of completing this draft ordinance. So, go ahead and tell us what you'd like to share with us on your changes with the sign ordinance.

Thank you. Um, I appreciate it. I think everyone's worked really hard the last several months to get this to where it is. Um, and so there were two, it's technically four or one, however you see it, minor changes um, between what you received last week and, um, what you, these two additional pages you're looking at today, which is an item G, residential district's permit required. There were still four items that were actually exempt signed, so I've just removed them. Um, and so if you look at PA, you know, your memo has two pages attached to it and that's um items A, B, H, and I are actually exempt. And so they just needed to be removed from that section. Um, and then I think the larger question that has kept coming back up is how the ordinance itself is organized. Um, and one of the sort of key things for the planning and zoning commission has been how can we organize this in a way that is easiest for folks who are needing to use it to be able to understand and use it. Um, and so I have sort of proposed a way that I think structurally is helpful. You guys are closer to the I'm a resident. and I just picked this up and does this make sense to me. Right? So, I I think it's worth having that conversation this evening. I think it's mostly in good shape. There's a couple of things which is area of sign, general regulations, and temporary signs that in the document you have they're further down because the purpose was to try to have prohibited signs and exemptions at the top. But I think with regard to area of a sign and general regulations, those should be above exemptions because even exempt signs

have to comply with those regulations. Um, and I think temporary signs from a I want to do a temporary sign. Do I have to read all these permit required signs first? Right? Can I just read this temporary sign section? Putting that up higher is what I'm advising. Uh I look forward to your thoughts on the best way to organize it for next month.

Okay. All right. So the the organization we're going to come to at the uh probably at the end of our discussion um let me just go over quickly what we will change tonight. Um so that we might have a little more time to discuss signage. Now, we are going to put number two on old on new business discussion of home occupation on hold until next month. We have a few things to clarify. So, not that what you read was going to go to waste. We're going to just uh clarify a few issues before we continue with that discussion. And of course, it'll be nice to have a few commissioners here who live in some of the o some of the areas that are going to be um you know, subject to some of these home occupations. So, I'm I'm just as happy to hold off on that. Um, so we're going to hold on number two. That'll give us a little more time on number one, old business. So, if we go back to the beginning on signs and we've looked at, you've all read the things in green and uh notice that any changes have been included in here and she's we've done a great job of I think tweaking um like for example function and purpose A1. I think that is a really beautifully concise and usable uh function and purpose and I don't think anybody here if anybody has anything they want to change on that please let me know now because I want to go through it page by page until we get and we get through to what the addition or changes are that Miss Franklin gave us that'll be in you know the following pages but let's start in the beginning and kind of go through it because as I say next month I want to have a public hearing tweak it one last time and then send it on to our town council if we go ahead and motion to approve it. Okay. So, signs perform an important function in that they communicate, identify and promote properties, businesses, services, residences, events, and other matters of interest to the public. Additionally, signs contribute to the physical

environment and aesthetics of public spaces in the town of Chesake Beach. The purpose of this section is to ensure fair and consistent regulation of signage in the town of Chesapeake Beach so they promote the public health and health safety and general welfare. Now where I have a problem is on number two. Number two is no sign shall be erected, hung, placed or painted in any district except as here and after provided. Do we not want to take that out of function and purpose and put it into applicability? Would that be more of an applicability statement? Um, it just seemed like it doesn't fit with what I just read with function and purpose.

Um, is anybody in agreement with that? I am because I want that beautiful statement to stand alone. I know all of you had a part of that and it just seems to really work well. Uh, it's one of the better ones I've read. I've read a lot of them. But I don't like this no sign shelby. I don't like them all of a sudden this negative thing coming out. No sign will be around. I want it being put down under the Does anybody have see what I'm saying? Do you all think that's an appropriate situation? Yes.

Yes. I I and I agree with you. Only thing that just sort of occurred to me when we talk about um signs contribute to the physical environment and aesthetics of public spaces. It's also the private spaces because you know when we talk about the real estate signs and we talk about other signs. So, I just felt maybe that should be added there. I thought we had talked about this before and why it is public spaces because those are public facing versus if you say private that's like interior in your home and we're not.

Oh, I and that could be it just sort of maybe it hit me a new a different way. So, it's how you look at the term public spaces. And I think that's a very appropriate um I I when you start saying public and private spaces, you thinking of secret, you know, signage somewhere in a dark closet or something. And that's fine. I'm okay with that. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's a good question and I think we have a great answer. Um and anyway, so uh Miss Franklin, do you think there's any reason why we can't move number two down under B applicability? I don't. I think it and applicability the statement and applicability.

Say that again three times really fast. Um are are very similar. So you could frankly just replace the applicability statement with that one. Um or you can keep So the applicability statement is the one that exists in your code today. So you could just delete two. So you agree that number two and then the the blurb under applicability are pretty much the same thing. saying is that what you're saying? Yes. That two and all signs must comply with all the regulations contained herein irrespective of whether or not a permit is required. Is that are those two pretty much the same? They're pretty much saying the same thing. Yes.

Is everybody okay with eliminating number two or do you think we need to re uh re uh confirm that it's also uh no sign shall be erected, hung place, etc. I mean, do we need that extra oomph in there or what do y'all think? I I like extra umps. She likes extra arms. Um not all of it. But I do feel when it talks about the painted, erected, replaced or painted, it's sort of it's a takes away any potential ambiguity in someone's mind that you know any modifications of signage uh you know are also an issue. Maybe we'll make it number two under B applicability and that first statement will become number one.

There you go. Any disagreements with this idea, guys? Uh, I like the

Okay, be nice over here. I got to watch you two over here. Then we have then we have C definitions. And as you can see, there were a lot of definitions in green that were maybe changed a little bit, added, whatever. Um, and they're very complete. As I went over this list as well, I can't think of one other possible um type of sign that we didn't include that would be appropriate for the town of Trese Beach. You know, certainly you're going to have other kinds that might be for a larger town like Annapolis, whatever. But for us, I think we've got a very complete and we have, as Commissioner Brown has indicated, we don't want to put a definition in here that we don't then see in our code. And we see all of these. I've made sure that we see all of these at least one time. So, um, that was a very important thing and I think that's, uh, a very positive thing that we're being as correctly edited as possible here and making sure that people aren't reading things that aren't needed. Um, any questions down on this end? No. Any issues? Okay. What about any of the um, has everybody read all of these definitions and you're all happy with the way they sound? to me they um I I think you I think they've done a you've done a great job defining I think um on number 30 temporary signage did we want to indicate where to go for and end for a temporary sign did we want to say please see such and such section for temporary signage

we Okay. I mean, maybe make it kind of like a table of contents as well. So, how does everybody feel about adding that to definitions? Um, but then that means we probably would do that to every one. Do we want to indicate to each one of them where it's located? Like, for snipe sign, where is that at? Well, it's on, you know, blah blah blah. Do we want to I mean, once we start, we don't want to just do it for temporary and not for snipe signs. And well temporary does have its own like section and none of the others have their own sections like do you know what I mean? So I don't think you necessar necessarily have to like okay go into it temporary feels like it oh it's different.

So when you see vehicular sign you don't need to go okay this is you know this is yay or nay on vehicular signage. Okay so you have number 23 portable sign. Okay, I'm a little confused here. 23 portable. Okay, you have portable sign. So, should we do it for portable sign and temporary sign? Because those are also two major, you know, we have portable sign has its own section too sort of, right? Portable signs and temporary signs have portable have their own. Do we do it for like the major? So, portable doesn't have its own section. Yeah,

it has its Okay. Okay. So, you would not consider that the same as temporary signs when it comes to temporary signs is a letter designation, right? Like that top okay level. Um, but it if you want me to refer each, you know, tie each sign to a section, that's something I can do. I would want to do that at the final draft piece. Of course. Of course. I mean, if we're talking about readability, like you said, the people that are actually reading it, I I feel like that I mean, that's even more helpful, especially since we're putting the definitions at the beginning. So, I'm thinking it become a a two for a twofer. You know, you've got your definitions plus you've got kind of a it's a cross cross reference

a cross reference. Uh yeah, so I'm thinking, what do you think about that? Is it going to be too confusing? My only worry is ever like what happens as things change and like I guess like that forward thinking is always what worries me where it's like are you setting up more complications for the future as things evolve and get that

but as we make a changes or amend this then the whole thing would have to change and the whole section would probably have to change. Can I make a alternate suggestion that we talked about in the past but hadn't gotten to which is instead of doing it in definitions that there's we take the terms that are defined without the actual definition and we put them in a table and then that table has the references in it so that then if you are making a change to the sign ordinance you'll automatically want to check the table because it's clear that it has those references instead of oh let me go into the definitions and look. So would that table be in the front that people would access things, you know, okay, okay, after definitions, oh, here's the table. Now I know where to go for temporary signage

from a functional standpoint. And I would definitely defer to madam clerk because she might know more about how um is it municode or however general code handles things like when we have a table or some back. It is. It's actually It's in the back, but also when you're online, you have to click to get through to it and have it pop up. Um, yeah. So,

could we just have a this might sound interesting a table of contents or a not even a chart but just a table of contents list of you know general the big the basic the big ones you know maybe not where well I mean you know even EMC's or whatever you want to call them that should have its own if you want to go to EMC's go to this section or go to that page or whatever general code, like if you print out the code from general code, you get that

table of contents before every section. Um, does that make sense? Like if you look at your zoning, you'll see that there's not but it's not going to include all the different parts of the sign signage, is it? Like will it I mean only if let me see here. Anything that has a letter designation. So the stuff in my mind that's lifted. Okay, that's what's going to Okay, the letter. Okay, there you go. Well, I'm good with that. I guess that's I guess that addresses everybody's issues. The changes and then it addresses the fact that we have something for them to use for a cross reference, you might say. You want do you want to do the table?

Yeah, the table. I think does everybody agree that maybe the table at the back might be the simplest? Well, I do think it's a good idea because you're right. You've sort of done you've pregamed kind of like the next revisions that you might have to do because you've already got things cross referenced. So, I think it makes any future changes. You don't have to recreate that particular that's the whole thing. Yeah. Because I think that's an excellent point. We don't want to have to recreate a lot of time and effort from for Madame Cler over over here. Okay. So I'm if you don't mind making that chart up maybe that's another cross reference for everybody.

Yes. And that's the kind of thing I wanted to just wait till we were absolutely at the end. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. And I'm just typing.

Okay. So if everybody is happy with the definitions notice that freeze standing on number 15 is you've got you've got it broken down A, B, and C. Um on number 20, off- premises sign. A sign which directs attention to a business, commodity, service, entertainment, home occupation, or other activity not conducted, sold, or offered on the same lot. Um, is that clear that if um, so if you're on two lots put together, it's okay. It means basically the same thing. You could you could you could advertise on this lot, but it would it wouldn't it would be permitted because you have sometimes we'll have two lots for a business. I bet you you know there are some businesses that have two lots put together.

Would that be confusing to somebody? Oh, well, I have two lots and I want to advertise, you know, my business and it's on that other lot. Is that a problem or is that an issue? I don't think that's an issue. Generally, um, with regard to how we treat lots as they come in for a zoning permit, right? If you own, you know, some of these lots are potted very, very small. If you own four lots and your house is on most of them, or even if your house isn't on one of them, we consider it to be, but you will consider that as one big. Okay. Yes. Because this is a funky town with the way lots have been put together and it's just it's it's interesting. If someone owns the one in between, then now you're an off- premises sign. But if you own both,

then you would be considered off premises. Yeah. Right. Okay. Um All right. So, if everybody's good with that and I uh if you have any other questions, issues, please um let me know now. If not, let's go to D. And um and so far we're going in the order that you're expecting us to go in as far as what your thoughts were with organization. I have not changed the organization. You've changed it. You haven't changed it at all.

I have not changed it. I was recommending a change. Um but that doesn't mean you guys have to make a change. So on D prohibited signs um uh there's a lot of change as you can see with green the green wording means that she's made some changes or amend amended it somehow. Um and to me if anybody's read this and thought it looked good. I mean, it's the only thing on R, vehicular sign. Do you want to include an S to uh make it conform to the one above and the other ones? You want to add an S to that on vehicular signs? Yeah.

Not that it really makes a big deal, I guess. Um and on J commercial signs advertising a business in any strictly residential zone excluding exempt signs. So, um you're talking about um areas this do we need to identify which ones are res are strictly residential zones? Do we need to spell that out?

This is one you guys have kind of discussed extensively. Um, and I don't think that it needs to be spelled out that we could turn change strictly to solely residential zones that you know I think solely is a little more specific. Don't you guys? And strictly um, if you don't mind, does everybody have a pro is okay to change strictly to solely? I do like that word better and I think it

makes it a little clearer. Um, thank you. I I think that probably makes me feel a little more comfortable there. Okay. If there's nothing else on prohibited signs, we um go to general regulations. Now, you had moved in your in your um recommendation for a restructuring, you moved area of sign to before general regulations. So, right now it reads prohibited signs and exemptions. Um, and I'm recommending that area of a sign and then um general regulations go between prohibited and exemptions.

Is that right? Is that what I What did you just say? You said so you have prohibited signs, area of assign, general regulations and exemptions. So, right now on the document the bigger document you had with your packet. Yeah. um after prohibited signs is exemptions. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And part of this was that you and I had kind of talked about how there's general regulations at the beginning of exemptions. Yes.

And it seems like we're being repetitive and that was why I sort of re-evaluated the order and recommended a different order. So it might be worth talking about, you know, if we're going to move general elect general regulations up above exemptions, then we would also move this section that's within exemptions, right, under just general regulations. It was repetitive for the purpose of making it easy for someone looking for exempt signs. But if we move it above, then we don't necessarily need to be repetitive. Okay? Okay. So, if you notice at the bottom of page seven is the word exemptions.

And um actually um uh what you want to do is you may want to move general regulations in front of that because people have to understand uh what the nature of an exempt sign would be. Is that what you're saying? Yes. And there's more general regulations later in the ordinance. I want to combine those. I want to combine those two things and put them above exemptions. Yes.

So, and then we've defined exemptions. It's allowed a sign allowed without a permit. Is that clear enough, do you think, where we say number two, we don't have the word, well, let's see here. How do we have exemptions? You have exemptions by itself where you have e exemptions. Um, but do people understand that when you see the word exemptions that it means that's that's what exemption means, allow without a permit? Because it looks like with number two when you go on page eight, you don't have the word exemption. I mean, we we need to combine. I think it Well, okay.

Yeah. So, I think when we move general regulations, I think you're you're correct. when we move general regulations out, right? Then we can just move allowed without a permit. So you exemptions colon allowed without a permit and then this list is provided below. Can you can you put signs allowed without a permit? Can you add the word signs allowed without a permit?

Um I think just to make it real clear what exemption means. um exemptions colon signs allowed without a permit. And then we include of course um all of the things in green there until we get to the area of the sign which really hasn't that's the one issue that really hasn't changed is the area of the sign. We really haven't changed any of that which is kind of interesting. I think we've talked about you guys have talked about it. We talked about it, but we came back to the same thing.

So then if we get to G, this is where we see the change in the memo. And I've got a question on G. And maybe it's just because too much coffee, not enough coffee. But when we talk about Yeah. Which one? When it says permit required, official traffic signs and other federal, state, and local. That's that's what's that's where we're Okay. So explain explain this again now that we're here. Okay. go explain what we've figured out.

Okay, finish my note about what to do above and now I'm gonna explain it to you. Okay. So, the what happened was I didn't catch right a temporary um exempt signs that were in the general regulations as needing a per sorry is it they're in general regulations as needing a permit or residential districts permit required. And so when I talked with the chair, she noticed that we found the four that were relevant and deleted them. And so that's we deleted A, B, H, and I. So if you take your 10 and 11, page 10 11 that's in your packet and replace it with 10 and 11 that was attached to the memo.

It should look right because your Okay. Your memo 10 and 11 should have strikethroughs through those. Yes, it does. Okay. Oh. Oh, okay. So, that's that was the confusion. I thought I know we have some patterns, but not that much. Um, but it should they should still line up if you want to literally replace them in your packet so that you can follow. Okay. So, is everybody seeing what Miss Franklin was just talking about with um Does it make sense to everybody what um Okay. All right.

Now, if everybody goes through all of G and um if you can look at the memo and just line it up and make sure that everything looks um somewhat what you were hoping to see.

Okay. So that's all the same. Okay. This is different H. Are you figuring this? This is all looking okay to you. Okay, good.

Okay. When everybody's kind of gone through that a little bit because I know that just popped on you tonight. Um, but it was one of those clarifications we needed to have. Anything about G that you see that you think we need to change, uh, modify? What do you think on on I when it says no trespassing signs or signs, it's kind of confusing. Is it no no trespassing signs or is it no tr no? Oh, I was deleted because it's permitted as an exempt sign.

Oh, that is correct. Yes, I do see that. Yes. So, we're not going to we're not putting Where are we putting Let's see here. It falls under exempt. I think it's falls under exempt because size, but we might have called it out specifically. Let me check. But when we put it back in, I'm still with the question. No, we're not put we weren't putting it back in. We were taking it out. And we're not going to put it in. We're not going to put it because I think it's already somewhere.

Any on premises sign that has a total area of less than four square feet. Um, so your no trespassing sign is going to be that size. Um, so it would be exempt, right? It it it's going to be exempt, but what I'm saying is the way it's written. Mhm. It's coming out, but it's deleted. So, but are we not going to put anything back into ex? Why would we? What's she saying? If we're saying put a certain number, you can put a sign. This is the only one that's really talking about content of a sign versus,

you know what I mean? Like you can put up a sign that says no trespassing and that would just be allowed. You could also put up one that says welcome home or like what, you know what I mean? That's all. And I think it's kind of hard because sometimes we're zooming in and sometimes we're zooming out and so it's going from the specific to the very general. And yeah, and I think what we're saying is that it's it falls under the general rubric. So it doesn't need to doesn't need to have a separate separate starring role, a cameo. Okie do. No cameos allowed. Okay, very good. All right. Any other questions about G? Uh we go to H. H is

H is um commercial districts permit required. So this is okay. Okay.

Does anybody have any questions about number one H1 on premises signs A and B? feels like there has to be a way of making that language clearer to a lay person. I've thought that so many times. And this is one of the sections in the old code that I I just couldn't. I wanted to change up too. But I don't want to make it so that it's not going to pass muster with the legal department.

Um but to me it's a little muddy and I don't know if it's just me or I can't read whatever. I don't know. Well, it sort of reminds me when I was trying to read um environmental statutes. Yeah. Except for here and after. And I'm wondering if just subsection G is just what we just discussed. And I wonder if um when it's finally done, you could maybe put in parentheses C pages. So see people know it's just the G preceding this. You're talking about a talking about you're talking about one A, right? Uhhuh. We on under H. Yeah.

Well, what is muddy for you? What was muddy for you? I was just concerned about um Oh, okay. So, I see what you're saying. Okay. So, you're saying what what's muddy is, okay, you got to go to subsection, you got to go back here to look for this, and it it just seems like we're not making a definition here. We're just giving people to go another reference point to go back somewhere else. That's what codes do all the time, unfortunately. and it makes everybody go crazy because we're flipping and know with the computer it's a little easier but

I wanted to avoid that in this but um I guess there's no way to make this less cumbersome I can put a PNS to say residential districts permit required right so you're in section 8 so now you know what that is called right and you go up the one you know oh okay if I can put it in a residential district then I can put it in a commercial district ah Yeah, that might help. That's that's what it's saying. A little more descriptive. I see what you're saying. Yes. Maybe that would be clearer. Maybe that would clear it up right there for me. People are going subsection G where

or maybe I actually say all signs permitted in residential districts permit required, subsection G. So that

so they they would know the subsection maybe identifying with sub that maybe that would be a big help. So say that again. All signs permitted in residential districts permit required subsea subsection G at the standards prescribed therein. But for me, I feel like there's a way of making it more clear that it's like all of the signs I'm trying to figure out if there's a way of reordering the sentence that makes it make more sense because it's because what we're saying is everything that was allowed in section G

plus this. Yeah. Right. So everything that all signs that were permitted in section G as like as set forth. Can you put the page numbers like when it's finally all said and done so that if somebody wants to go back to it, they know exactly where they go. Well, remember this will be on the on online so it'll be different in p on paper than it will be on so it'll be a little complicated that way. I think that page numbers change as different parts of the page change. Is that accurate? Okay. Yes. Okay.

I just think the lay person is looking at that and waiting through what the meaning is, which is to say you're allowed to have anything except if we say anything coming up. Yeah. doesn't like and that's like a little bit exactly my point. I I just Yes. So I think in this case we're we're talking about commercial signs, right? Where you're expecting a little bit more understanding and you're also having to have a little bit more well you you have to anywhere, right? But if we leave this description open, right? If we say just if it's permitted in a residential district, then it's permitted here. They may say, "Well, it's permitted here under these standards, not under

there's there's much room for interpretation. We have to tighten up the interpretation." I I know it's extra words, but I'm wondering sometimes, do you just repeat what's allowed in G in commercial under? Yeah. And then just add the ones that are additional. I mean, it's repetitive, but the person who's looking for commercial signs, it's not repetitive to them because they're not bothering with the res commercial. Absolutely. We can just copy like copy and paste what's in G and put it in H.

Right. And then and then the only caveat I put to that is if you change when you come back and you amend the sign ordinance, if you amend section H and forget to amend section or amend section G and forget or vice versa. Right. Right. Then now you have inconsistencies and what's allowed in each zone that you maybe didn't intend to.

But if you were to amend I think the other sort of the other thing right is that it's going to be right above it and it's actually pretty short. The reason it looks long and cumbersome to us is because we are amending the existing sign ordinance. So we have to leave in all the strikethroughs. Mhm. Um, and so it makes it look like the there's a lot residential district permit required is a lot, but it's really Oh, yeah. four paragraphs maybe.

Could you just say here subsection G with the title and then above noted above or listed above just so they know exactly? Does that make sense? Above. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I I think even the words all signs permitted in residential districts sub and then parenthesis subsection G above above whatever

I think when you say at the standards prescribed therein, I I that to me is cumbersome. Um, all signs permitted in residential districts sub uh subsection G and I would think it be and the standards prescribed therein instead of at. Should it be at and not and all signs permitted in residential district subjuding and the standards prescribed therein, comma, except as otherwise provided in this sub or maybe I'm reading it wrong. I don't know. Maybe I'm I think it could be at or and I think I I can it be at or and I think Well, I mean I think we should pick one but I think

Well, and but I mean but I'm just not sure that at is the right it's not necessarily preposition. It's not necessarily won't because it's like saying at this level like you're a donor let's say at this level not I mean I understand okay then maybe what I need is a comma after subsection G comma at the standards prescribed. Okay, it's the comma that I'm missing. Right. Right now it says all signs permitted in residential districts colon permit required comma subsection G comma above comma at the standard. That's what I needed. Kind of just divided it off. It's like eating grandma. It's like let's eat grandma or let's eat grandma. We say that every night at

Yeah. I'm sorry. Like it's a joke. We love that. Thank you. I'm glad you got that one. Okay. So, if we can include Grandma, let's eat. Comma, grandma. Right. Right. Yes, I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Commas are always very That's why commas are, you know, we got to teach those in schools. So, all science permit in residential districts and then parentheses subsection G, right? Above whatever, at the standards prescribed therein, except as otherwise provided in this subsection. I'm a little I'm feeling a little bit more comfortable now. Um,

or couldn't you just say except as otherwise provided below? I guess you can say the subsection. It just seems like it's more words. It is more words, but I think when you use below and above, it gets a little bit Yeah, you're right. You know, you need to kind of do I need to Does that mean just B1? Does it mean B1 and two? Does it also apply to off- premises sign? Like that's why you want to say in this subsection. Okay, gotcha. In which case it only applies to, you know, A, B, B1, B2, and not off- premises signs. That makes absolute sense.

Do we need the word provided signs for permitted non-residential uses? Poland the aggregate. Do we need to have the word provided? I don't think so. Yeah, I think that might have might just be how it was written previously. Like there was a lot of the word provided before. Yeah, I know. I think we need just a um a colon after uses or I've already scratched it out

detail but you know this is a an important document here. Okay. So signs for permitted non-residential uses scratch the provided um and then the rest I think we figured was okay. Um and is it lineal foot or is it linear foot? Um

it's below where it says um the area of any free sign shall not exceed one square foot for each lineal or I think you can use lineal but it seems like linear is what I always use with feet. Linear sounds right. It does sound right but it does but I'm not sure if lineal is a building or something you can use either. I think at the time that it was written they chose to use lineal. If we want to change it to linear I don't think that's a problem.

That's more common. I don't think we see lineal very often anymore. Uh let's go to let's change that to linear please. Then we go to off- premises signs. All signs permitted in subsection G of the standards prescribed therein. And again comma after subsection G. I'll just take the same language from above. Then we get into general sign regulations

and a lot of uh changes there of course. Um I know I I'm still bugged with this durable material thing but that's okay. That's my thing. And the numbering is very very messy through there. like the new one you added the illuminated one is number eight but it's really number three that'll get fixed in the final really item number six I know this sounds really word smithy but I want to I want to just ask your opinion about the word opinion it says in number six it goes all signs blah blah blah and then it says in the middle in the opinion of the public works you want to say in the um

no that's still the same thing in the um as as determined by. Yeah. I don't want to make anything uh subjective. So I want to make it as determined by. Yes, that's okay. If anybody has a question. Okay. You're on fire today.

Well, you know what? I don't have my my you know, my guy here, so I need to take over the job tonight, guys. when you begin the word um such order shall be complied with that is not really grammatically with I'm sorry. So if you go underneath where it's where we changed out the opinion word, if you go down to the next sentence, such order shall be complied with within 5 days of receipt thereof by the person blah blah. Can we reward that sentence so you don't start with such order shall be? I mean, it's um

I'm worried about the width. The dangling width. Yeah, the not this is not grammatically um it's not a grammatically well-written sentence. Um the order let's see here not the order but the uh the uh could you start with the person form or corporation owning shall comply? I mean could you could start with

there now say that again. Well, I'm not really sure, but you could start with the person, firm, or corporation owning or using the sign or the owners of the building or premises who have received notice of an unsafe sign must comply within 5 days. I mean, just something like that. I haven't figured out the very last part, but that would get rid of sort of that odd entry words. I guess when we use the word such, we're using it in a legal ease form. Uh this is more of a

instead of the order. You say this order or this order? I mean, but aren't isn't such being used in a legal? It's it's it's designating I think this order as opposed to any other order in existence. It is. I mean, that's the word such is referring to it. Just Right. Yeah. And maybe we should just leave it. Um, as I'm thinking such order shall be, but it's it's a very it's not user friendly in the in the term that you know a normal person is going to go such order shall be. Okay, fine. Want me to read your suggestion entirely? I'm sorry. Say that again. I I can read the suggestion um that was presented in its entirety if that would help.

Very good. So, the the person, firm, or corporation owning or using the sign or the owners of the building or premises who have received notice of an unsafe sign must comply with this notice within 5 days. Yeah. Notice. Yeah. You like that better? Yes, I like that better, actually. Do you like that what you just read better? I think it's clearer what you just read, right? That's what Commissioner Gman. Yeah, I agree with me. Yes, you should agree with agree.

Okay, good. Good. Thank you. All right, let's turn the page, please. Number page 14. It looks like it's uh you know, we don't have to read anything there. Okay, page eight. Oh, we like we like that page. We like page 14. Forget that one. Okay, then page eight. Um you mean page 15. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's number three, but the formatting won't let me say so right now. I'll fix it.

Becomes number three. Hope that pretty well. Okay. I think number eight, both of those are very necessary. Um I think they I think they're easily understood.

Very easily understood. All right. Now, if we go to the uh temporary signs, I assume. Are you going to put temporary as uppercase letter uppercase letters or are you going to put signs as uppercase with it? So just for expectations as to how it will look when it's drafted for public hearing. Um everything that is in green is going to be in uppercase letters. I can keep it in green too if that's helpful. Um so that'll be because that's all the new text you're adding to the existing document. Mhm.

Then everything that is in black will remain how it is and everything that is in black with a striketh through will stay there with the strikethroughs. Um since we already did that work, it doesn't make sense to ask the lawyers to do that work again. Exactly. So when you have one signs including temporary signs, aren't we just talking about temporary signs here or are we trying to make a broader statement other than just temporary signs? Shouldn't we just say temporary signs

directing p patrons blah blah or do we need to including temporary because we're under the temporary signs category, right? Yes. You get what I'm saying? Yes. You're saying it's redundant. Agree. They're a little redundant. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. So, do you see those? Yes. Things. Okay. I got that. And then and then of course the on C we've got got church bells on there. What is going on? Sign shall not be permitted for more than 60 days per year. So you added that or changed it or see under CC there was a green NOP.

Yes, I added that because when I was reading it I realized that right now your regulations actually say signs sign shall be permitted for more than 60 days per year. So that we're not the only ones who make mistakes. Now there is an E I would like to add on temporary signage. Um, and I know we have it somewhere in here, but I c I couldn't figure out where we had it that we need to relocate it, but I wanted to put in there. Uh, we talked about um windy weather. It's here somewhere. So, I can't I as I try to look around under general regulations under exempt sign. Yeah, it says something about it has to be um Yeah. Where was that?

It is um freestanding. It says 15. I think it says it has to be placed on or anchored on the ground. Is that what you're talking It is on page the top of page eight. Portable signs must be brought indoors when high wind events are forecast. All signs must be properly secured or gated. So these are now going to be applying to everything. Um they're going to be general sign regulations. Okay. So we don't need to put that under the temporary sign regulation because we've got it there, right?

But do we want to take E because it's designated as portable signs? We'd want to take that and just put it under because you see under general regulations onee, we're just outlining one general regulation for portable signs only. Don't we want to make it look less confusing and put that over under portable signage? Do you see everybody on page eight where we have one E portable signs must be brought indoors with when high wind events are forecast. Where are you referring to where there's portable signs only?

So then take Okay, maybe I'm So I'm sorry. You're right. I'm confused. Okay, you're right. I'm thinking temporary signs because temporary signs are also lightweight. I'm thinking tempor when I'm thinking temporary and portable. I'm thinking lightweight signs that you move around. I think it's so because I think we want to use the portable because an A-frame sign isn't really necessarily a temporary sign. That's a sign, you know, that is going to be out. It's a temporary sign, but it's also a portable sign. It's not really a temporary sign because it's going to be it can be out all year long, right? It's it's part of the exemption about um

but it still needs to be weighted. I'm trying to think about. Okay. But are there no types of Okay. Really temporary signs could be moved under exemptions instead of being its own section. What it's trying to do is it's trying to fit into the existing structure of the ordinance as it is. And it may be best to just oh

just move it um instead of giving it its own section just slide it under exemptions um and accept that we're going to have to alter that section of the ordinance as well.

Are there no kinds of temporary signages that we want to have permits for? I know a lot of towns permit temporary signs as well. Did we I know we decided long ago we didn't really talk about I don't think per having permits for any temporary signs. I don't want to have to be litigated right now, but are I'm just trying to think. Are there any kind of signs that would be anyway? I guess not. It's hard to see until we see like the next version since it's hard to see how it's going to work out until we get the next version of this. Well, I guess I I guess I get confused between temporary and portable because I think a lot of temporary signs are portable. You know, I'm thinking about just the signs that you have on a stick with a little thing and just take it and move it over. You know, you just move them around and there's So, I'm always thinking that temporary signs can also portable

in a lot of ways. Temporary banner up. You could have a temporary Yeah. temporary sale. That is true. But on the other hand, you could have it. You could have it, but it may not be that. And that's why I'm a little I think the confusion is that we tried to to work within what was already here. And we probably should have just said, you know what, we got to we got to move all these temporary signs and stick them under exemptions, which, you know, does make exemptions more complicated, right? Yeah.

But these are really exempt signs. And so unless you want them to be permitted like as an item two, your A-frames or your T frames, if you want those to be permitted. When you say permitted, you mean a permit needed, not permitted. Yeah. Not permitted, but I mean permit. I personally like the idea of moving them into the exemptions and not requiring permits for them based on the fact that they're small and they're not staying up forever and like that just feels like dealing with permits and then you know enforcing it. But they could be up forever if you think the sandwich or the

No, because a sandwich sign if it it's only a temporary sign if it's not going to be up for more than 60 days. If your sandwich sign is staying up more than 60 days, it's no longer a temporary sign. Right. Right. Well, would the would but but I'm just saying would somebody take advantage of that and say, "Oh, it's going to be temporary." And then bam, it stays up all year and you think, "Okay, it's had a permit." No. So, the sorry, the only one that isn't actually a temporary sign that's listed under here is the A-frame or the T frame. So, everything else has like under one it tells you about like the size and how long it's talking about exhibits, shows, events permitted, right? Yeah. Yeah.

So that gives you a time frame. Under number two, banners, feather flags, etc., they have a time frame. But B, the A frame or the T frame, there's not a time frame associated with that. So even though it's classified under a temporary sign, it does not have a time frame that applies to it. So then I guess the next question is, do we then want to put temporary signage under exempt Nice. That makes I think that seems cleaner than having a section for a bunch of signs that are exempt because real estate signs are really temporary signs.

Yeah, you got all these other ones are all all temporary signs when I, you know, think about it again. Yes, it's all temporary. Holiday signs hopefully are temporary, but we're gonna But the A-frame ones, where are they going to go? Those could be both. I suppose I think there's they're also going to be exempt as long as you only have one of them.

So you would have to give them its own little letter. I mean it'd have to be separate. Um, so if you are going to take temporary signage and put it under exempt, um, are you even calling them temporary signs anymore or are you just calling them signs that are under 12 feet or so? I mean, would you just need descriptions and not really a a term temporary? So um how it will look is that under exemptions there will be new ones right and it will say because one is specific right temporary signs directing patrons members or audience to temporary events shows or events are permitted subject to the following requirements I think some of these requirements are already involved so like if no such sign 12 square feet in area if that's already covered then I'll delete that but if it's not already covered, I'll leave it in. Right? So, this whole little paragraph a one ABC D will go under there. And then um two will actually should actually probably just be moved into um commercial signs as number three and then 2 A and B should go as letters and exempt signs. Do you follow that?

Yeah. Can I? Yes. Point out a small thing that seems so under 1 C, no such sign shall be posted earlier than two weeks before the occurrence of an event which it relates sign shall not be permitted for more than 60 days per year. But then a different type of like then under 2A where it says banners, feather flags, human signs, inflatable signs, and not to exceed one thing is I would it's saying 14 days where the other one said two weeks. I would just have that

like consistent one or the other. But also it does and not to exceed 30 days per year. And I feel like when you're adding different numbers to different places that there being like more consistency, it feels I think you're so right. Be consistent. Yes. Unless there's a reason for an inconsistency. I don't see any reason here. Unless there's something that we don't know about. Is there some reason, Miss Franklin, why we should make banners different than

I don't think so. But I do want to just have us check exemptions and see if we have other time regulations in exemptions because if we do then we want to make those consistent. So there's real estate signs. They have their own timeline but that's as to be expected. Yeah, that's the difference. So, yes, I think choose one, choose your own adventure here as to which one of these two time frames you prefer and then I will make them consistent.

Okay, what does everybody think? Do they want 60 days per year or do they want 30 days per year? Uh, not to display periods not to exceed 14 days prior to the event. Not to exceed. Okay, which one do we want to go with? Who what's what do you think? Well, I mean, I'm just trying to think about like what events I Well, let's talk about Christmas. Um, you usually start in October about 60 days before Christmas. I'm thinking Christmas and I think then I think it should probably be 60.

So, if you want to get on the cons, you know, consistent, you know, holiday schedule, usually everything starts two months ahead now. Halloween, you know, you know, Easter, everything's two months. Don't you think? I mean, I feel like just give it the bigger window. Yeah, just go with the So, let's change that a change that to the to the uh 60 days per year. Two weeks ahead and then 60 days per year. Okay. We're saying two weeks, not 14 days. Okay. Well, I think we should go with 14 days. I think that's a little more specific.

It's more the more specific. I think you should go days and days, but yeah. So, then we got to go back here. Go back and change C weeks to 14 days. There you go. Got

Okay, that I I really like the idea of changing that. Thank you everybody for coming for agreeing with you. No, no, it wasn't my idea. I think, you know, I think that the more logically set up this is, the better off it's going to be. So, I'm happy makes people less less antsy if they have to deal with Oh, right. Yeah. And when you're like, well, why is that one and not this? Like, I don't I think it's Yeah. Right. You have to be consistent and it has to I think it's a good idea. Makes sense.

Electronic signs. We've all looked at that a thousand times and I don't you know, it is what it is. What's a thousand1001 more? But I think there's really not much we can change there. Um, and it was a real reason for the sign ordinance draft is including this huge section in there. We need to make sure it's I have a quick question about the about the electronic messaging signs. Do we have So are are there any within these guidelines that we have written? Are there any that are going to be in violation when we start? Say all of them.

Like are we giving grace period? Are we giving exemption? Okay. So now we have a um if you go to page where is the grandfather section here? It's on page nonconforming non-conforming signs. May page 19. You'd be jumping ahead. I'm sorry I'm missing the because it's an important point and you're right about that. But do we need to add the word grandfather? Do we need that in there or do people not non because do people know what nonconforming signs? Do they understand that? So they understand grandfather.

What I would say is that grandfathering is what you have now you can keep doing that. What we're actually saying in the non-conforming is true that you can keep your physical sign even if it's not in compliance, but you cannot have flashing, blinking, you know, you're going to have to comply. Yes. With everything else because you can control that without adding. Yes, you're right. Okay. So, it would not even be considered grandfathering, right? Um, and pretty much every business is going to understand what a non-conforming sign is. I think so.

And the words explain, you know, explanations are good. Um, so EMC's, um, K I think is good. Al, I think it's all good. We get to M violations. Oh, actually, did we want to read over the non-conforming sign thing? uh Chris that you probably and so just so that is the actual C is the only one that I sent to the lawyer ahead of time and was like hey can you make this how you would want it to look in the end um so L3C oh not K okay wait a minute L

we're at the non-conforming sign L okay and that was L3C you said okay Yeah, it seemed Yeah, it seemed well written. My version was much shorter, but I think this is one of the most important sections and it it has to be tight and most people don't need it. So, yes,

I wish whatever it does. The idea that somebody that we would put things in place, but that the fact of the matter was even when those things went in, they weren't conforming to the regulations of the permit or you know the ordinances as they currently were. It's not like we're like making up something after the fact and then now being like got you like they never they always were. They always were non-conforming. Not that that matters, but there's a part of me that I'm like, I wish that that was clear. You mean like you Yeah, a little like we're letting but like even the old ones you weren't in.

We could we could force them to remove them, right? That's if if we chose not to take this route the other and and we've sort of paused on that that was discussion happening on that. So, may I No, it's just I can imagine if I was looking at this and I didn't realize that the things that we're talking about that are non-conforming, if I was just reading it, I'd be like, they're changing ordinances and now they're acting like they have to file for it after the fact or like they've made where it's like even Anyhow, that's this is more for the public to know if you're looking at this later. We That's I think you're trying to preempt

grumbling and rousing. And I don't know how you do that unless you have a preamble of some like Exactly. Yeah. I just I there's that part of me that just wants it like on public record like these things were We can do that in the public meeting, right? I think signs that have been erected without a permit in violation of this chapter that have been in place for more than two years. That's saying if you put up a sign and we didn't make you take it away, we're not going to come with you right now. We're going to figure out how to work with you. So, it's just saying you were in violation already. And I made one change to the attorney's My god. One simple little change.

Yes. The word traveling is misspelled. Oh, that's I a V L I N. Take an L out of there. Are you sure? Yes. I just looked it up again. Just the second. Okay. I guess the second. Oh, my spell check is not picking that up. I am curious though, if somebody had put a sign up a non-conforming sign up six months ago, then are they getting it torn down? Oh, like because it's it's hasn't been here for two years. Yeah. Yeah. That's um let's see. Does it mean Well, if should it not?

Not that I want. So, the the purpose of this was so if you if you're a business and you're like, "Hey, they're looking at this signs. Let me throw in this non-compliant sign real quick." Yeah. No, your sign does not Your sign is going to have to comply entirely and you need to apply for a permit. Yeah. Yeah. So, but how do people do you think people are trying to beat the clock on this? I mean, is that is that a problem?

That is not my perception. I think we that was the discussion is we don't want while we're having that was very early on discussion. While we're having this discussion, we don't want people to say, "I'm going to put in my sign now because they're probably going to adopt this." Um, and so that is why to my knowledge, right, you guys know more than I do, no one has put in a new non-conforming sign since we have started this discussion. And and to that extent, right, if you're going to be putting in a sign, you are supposed to apply for a permit. And so if if you choose not to apply for a permit, while there's all this conversation about signs happening,

that's on you. Like, yeah. Right. If if if after this is passed in 60 days, you put in a big EMC that's not compliant, it's not compliant and you're going to have to be asked to remove it as per the zoning ordinance or you can comply with the regulations and um get a permit. I think I think there was a period that the town was without code enforcement and that's what created again I'm sorry the I think there was a period in the past when the town did not have code enforcement is my understanding as to how sort of things happened

and didn't get co caught at the time and so that's sort of why so the wild wild west I wasn't here I'm just trying I'm just trying to make things work for everyone. Okay. All right. Okay. So, um so L looks pretty clean. Does everybody agree? Does anybody disagree?

If we go to M violations, um do we need to be more specific on a failure to remove any temporary signs within the time prescribed? Do we need to identify what the you know by the zoning? Do we need to make that a little more specific? shall result in the town having the sign removed at the owner's expense. In other words, could they say, "Well, nobody prescribed any time, you know, I mean, do we need to make a little bit more precise to put them on notice?" You mean

um in other words, when for a temporary sign, what do you normally do if a temporary sign has been up too long or it's in violation? Do you just give them a notice or what happens? I I don't actually do anything. Not on mute. I'm so description. I'm just got to be out there. Um, so I have not talked civily about what he specifically does. I know a lot of places they're they're simple throwaway signs. A lot of places just have their public works pick them up and throw them out. Um, but it's if it's maybe

do we have to, in other words, do we have to tell somebody before we throw them out is my my point off someone's lawn. Well, in other words, I'm I'm thinking of political signs, you know, I mean, after so many throw out. Do we need to say that no notice is needed? Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I guess say I'm trying to say do we need to put that in here that they have they have to be put on notice. I don't want to say have to go and notify everybody about a temporary sign because then the blah blah blah.

Yeah, that's not usually how it works. So result in the town having the sign rem without um or maybe no notice no no notice there are no notice requirements for the removal. Where is this going? So on 1 a M enforcement violations enforce violations. Um um I don't know. I was going to say no notice is necessary to or is require the town is not required to provide you notice, you know, or something something like that.

Who's keeping track of how long they've been in violation? I guess the is I mean it's got to come from somewhere, right? Someone's keeping a tally of the well could call and say this has been here for reactive complaints from you know neighbors or the town is under no obligation to provide you with any additional notice or something like that any sign or is this is the temporary talking about temporary signs so it's only aren't we out of the temp that we're under M violation general reg that's a good question. Um, do we want to put that under temporary signage? I don't know. That's a good question. Maybe.

I thought violations applied to everything, not just temporary because temporary was just a section,

right? So, the the general rel regulations under violations apply specifically to temporary signs. This is a specific thing you all asked to have included with regard to real estate signs and political signs. Now, is the town going to bill a real estate agent for the 5 minutes it might take the guys to pick up their signs? No. But if there is a huge sign that requires them to dig or something, then that's where you're going to see the the cost. But because this this was requested to be put in here. Um, and it's not really an it's not really enforcement because it's not having the property owner do something, right? So, under enforcement, you have a sign that's abandoned or otherwise in violation. It has to be removed. Not by us. Okay.

By you. So, that's why I put it where it is. Um, maybe it should be in temporary. I'm thinking we might want to go back to under temporary and put this and put it there just to let people know because they're not going to go back here to read this. They have to understand that um they're responsible for removing sign signage within the prescribed t uh time or the town will remove without notice and at and and possibly at their expense. Maybe instead of going in exempt, it would actually go in general regulations, which is going to be above exempt or no.

Okay, you could do it. You could do that. And yes. Yes. So, in other words, you would put it if we go back to page whatever eight. I guess we're at now. Let's see where we Yeah, we're at eight for exempt signs. So if you're back at page eight, you would want to put them in general regulations above exemptions or you want to put them under exemptions.

So we just remove general regulations from exemptions. So I guess we did if we put this in here then we have to put general regulations back under exemptions for this one topic. So if general regulations are going to apply to the exempt signs as in a all signs must comply with the regulations contained here in irrespective of whether or not a permit is required right that that applies to exemptions even when we take it out of exemptions. So, okay. So, if we put an F in there, because I don't see this as a violation, I see this as just a responsibility that they're not

dealing with. And, you know, are we going to call it a give them a ticket for a violation? Probably not. We're just going to take it and throw it out. Not unless it's extremely expensive to remove. Yes. Uh, yes. Uh, but that would be a permanent sign you would be talking about, right? Or are some of the temporary signs also? I don't know if you guys have them out here. Um, you probably do when like there's the bigger races. Those ones that they they've got to dig. Yeah, I know. They put the like 2x4s or whatever it is. They had them coming into town like this. Yeah. I don't know how expensive those are to move, but I assume they have an expense associated with them because you're going to pay tipping fees, too, right?

Yes, of course. Of course, that's true. though. Um I think it's worth having in there in case you were in a situation where there was an extreme expense, then it does give the town the ability to bill the person for it. It's probably something that really won't get used unless there's an extreme offense. So you want to leave 1A as it is here, but you also want to go back to putting something in general regulations about it being their responsibility to take the sign out. Do I I think or what do you want to do there? I think I want to I'm happy with it in violations

though I understand what is being said. Like I looked at exempt signs. I didn't see anything that said that you were going to throw my sign away. Yeah. Right. Because that's what's really going to happen. Yeah. That's going to happen. Um so that needs to go doesn't need to. It could go under general regulations, right? Which is going to be right above exempt. And and now that I'm saying that, we may want to say failure to remove any temporary signs within a time prescribed shall result in the town having the sign removed and disposed of at the owner's expense so that it's clear. We're not hanging on to it for you. And that's going on page um I want to make sure I'm on the right page.

That is going to go page eight. um page it's probably gonna wind up on page seven because it's gonna be a new section called E and exemptions are is going to be F and all the other numbers are gonna trickle down there. Do you want to add that exact language on A? I'm Yeah, I was just going to move the exact language page seven. So go So in other words, if you look at page eight, just assume it's going to be on the page before that because everything's going to move over, but it's going to be up with general regulations which is currently on our page eight. general regulations in a lot of places. So, I'm not sure. Well, I'm talking about the one that's going to be right above exemptions.

That's how So, if that's how we're going to choose to to, you know, outline this thing. So, things for here. Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. Okay. Okay. I got you. I I do have a question for the removal of the signs and the town doing it, you know, when when we see fit, right? So,

I'm I'm just concerned about like there being a time stamp, you know what I mean, that we're providing to the homeowner or the business or something like that because like what you said, they're going to come back say, "I didn't know you when you were going to like I didn't know when you were going to remove my sign." Right. Is there any sort of like because like I mean there needs to be a complaint right there or or someone needs to notice that there's a violation and then I feel like we need to write like show that well the like this day was documented it's been it surpassed the day so that's why it's being removed. So I would say signs on private property, right, are going to go a lot longer. Yeah.

Than what is actually prescribed, right? U and so very likely there will be more of a procedure for those signs that are really on public property where they're not supposed to be anyway, right? Those are just getting pulled up. You can complain all you want, but they were in the public right away. They were there for this long. You knew they were going to be disposed of. I'm sorry that your signs were expensive and we threw them out, but you really knew that when you put them They're really not sorry. Um, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe the guys are sorry.

Well, so then there goes back to the question. Do we need to add that you may not be given notice for its removal? Do we need to put a I think that uh Commissioner Riceman added that. Did we add that? Well, I didn't know that it was in fact added, but I did say the town's under no obligation or something like that. Do you want to say I just wrote the town is under no obligation to provide you with something sounds kind of folksy, don't you think? I mean, we're not under any obligation. No, it's precise. Sounds lawyerly. The town does not is not required to notify you of this removal. Town is under no

obligations. You work out and let me know. We'll talk about it when one of us is the dummy tomorrow. Funny. You're always the dummy and don't ever forget him. So, what do you what do you what how would you say it? Is under no obligation. My friend Rachel get it later. How do you think? I get it. Okay, I get it. I need Where is my Larry when I need it? Sorry, Larry. Come on. Come on. Speak up. Yeah, that is not uh Okay, you figure it out. Can you let us know? But I told her. Okay.

But just something that I if somebody is just reading that exempt area and that portable uh well that you know that section I should say they will understand that that is their responsibility to remove the sign in a time in the time noted.

Okay. So I think we've really I mean is there anything else that anybody has seen in here? Uh the enforcement is pretty much um I don't know if you all read it, but it's the three violations by the same entity and our persons. This entity and our persons will not be permitted to display exempt signs within the town for a period of six months. And where

I'm I'm looking at the last page 21. I'm just kind of picking out certain things that kind of stick out at me. Um again that is saying exempt signs but um I guess you know the exempt and the permitted permitted remain you see that yes yes that's a little bit of are you seeing what are you hearing what we're saying about it's a little it doesn't m I mean I think at the end of the day I think we're good do you want to change it. Who? Rachel, what are you thinking about this

after Thesa? I mean, because the point is they're going to get punished, right? You get three same and even even signs that you're allowed to have, you're no longer allowed to have because you've Cuz I feel like soup for you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure the lawyer is going to let stay in there. Yeah. I kind of was wondering dad myself if like you're allowed to put them on sign timeout and like especially like they already have permanent signs. What are they going to do? Put a sheet over them? There will be public shaming where you hang your signs up? Just realistically, how are they going to how are we taking Roland's sign down if they've done it? It's only for exempt signs, right?

It's not for their Don't we mean exempt from permit signs? Yes. Well, that's Yeah, that's what she was talking about. Yeah. So, they would have to go any of the things that would have been allowed. Now, they've got to take down their open sign and their No. Oh, yes. We got to take down their American flag that we're like you like you're being stripped of all your medals. Yeah, that one just seems um I don't feel like that's the reason that Sorry. Um the reason that you all decided to include this was specifically in relation to real estate signs.

Yeah. Um, regardless, I still think that the lawyer is going to strike this when they get their hands on it. Um, I could be wrong, but maybe the answer to this is to to just move this under real estate signs for right now and see what happened. That's what I was wondering too if we wanted to do that. Um, let's move. We're talking about B, right? Because we're talking about B. You do see more violations. I don't want to put any group on the spot, but it seems like if there's any violation, the real estate profession tends to violate that rule a little bit more often. The only ones putting up the signs that frequently, I think,

right? Um I mean, and you know, the question is, is it a big deal in this town? I mean, you know, we don't have a lot of things that are for sale all the time in this town, but um if I think we're going to have that, I think we probably should move it. I don't know. What do you all feel about that? that if we're going to keep B, we should probably move it. I My thought is just to strike it, it seems. I think I mean, how are we Yeah. How are we going to That feels like just a real mess to enforce even if the lawyer did. Like like I just like I don't like having any rules that don't feel enforceable and this feels

not super enforceable. The way you have to look at it what is enforceable and not and that really is not why do you think it would be stricken because I I don't think you can do this. I don't think you can say to strikes her out right. Does anybody have a problem if we strike it? Well, now that you're saying that we have to strike it may I'm feeling a I'm feeling like I like it a little bit. I'm not saying you have to strike it. I am not a

saying even if the lawyer would let us but it doesn't feel enforcable to me like it doesn't feel like the kind of thing that like so one of the real estate companies they put up the temporary signs but now they have their open sign on their door they have their American flag they have their Christmas decorations those are all exempt signs and we're going to be like you got to take those down because you didn't you had your temporary signs like what I don't think so that feels like keeping track of that and that and those signs were not the problem signs. Like if anything then there's like a fine for having done this other thing, but like I don't know that just seems I'm I'm really there. Yeah. I was just

I think to your point right now about the fine, right? If it's a consistent problem and they're constantly having to be picked up and being thrown out by public works, then at some point public works is going to say, "This is getting really expensive. Can I do anything about it?" Well, yes, you can. You can charge them for it. You can let them for it. You can charge them for it. That's the one we were just talking about. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. If you're throwing out signs and if every week people are spending half an hour, which isn't that much, but that adds up, you know, it's cumulative. Then then then we charge them for that as it's been set forth. But to Yeah. But this other thing feels

it's the repeat offenders that we're having. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the one bill would probably stop it. Even if it's a very small bill, it's an annoyance. So I'm just going to pick up notice that there's a new sheriff in town. I know. Okay. So we're clear we're on B then we're going to keep B then.

I thought we were after all. Strike. Strike three. We're out. Strike it out. Let's go to the LA uh page 20 which is the violations. I see we have 2 E and 1 A are very similar but yet different. Um 1 A, M1 A and M2E. M2E. Okay. Yeah.

Oh yeah, now they are. So, let's see. You know, I'm telling you, he's not here. I have to like I'm I'm Larry. I'm really Larry in disguise. Too much. I was like, this does not feel like Okay, so yes. Um I I think because now because we're moving 1A up to general regulations, it is probably worth leaving 2E okay

in enforcement just so that it is in both places from I mean people aren't generally reading the enforcement chapter that's for us really and do we want to change the word may with will there under two I'm sorry 2 E. So M2 E you have may be removed. Do you want to make it will be removed just so that people have the fear of God? Oh yeah that's destroyed. If we say will though are we under obligation to do it and will we always do that? But we'll may be may be kind of wishy-washy.

Yeah. But wishy-washy or not, if we're no if we can't legally do like if we're not we would be in violation then every time we don't. Someone could say well the town didn't do it but no I'm suing. Yeah because it says will town removed my sign you know upper marrow. No. Oh, I'm saying the town removed my sign and threw it out and now the town has not removed this other sign and thrown it out. May is we may or we may not. Shall or will is we have to. And if you have you're short staffed or

how about instead of may, can we put can can be removed. I find May just to be like, you know, you're a nice guy. We'll let you keep yours up. But you physically p him means like, you know, didn't you remember fifth grade? Do you love grammar? Can and may one is leaving up to us to Well, I mean, may has a specific legal meaning. All right, there you go. That's why I need you. You use for you use may or shall. um right in the specific legal meaning and may means we might do it and shall means we're going to do it.

Okay. Well, that's there's not that. I'm sorry. Very disrespectful.

Okay. Then everybody is okay with what we're moving over to exemptions, what we're leaving, what we're striking. I think ready to go for a public hearing next month. We really do. I think it's going to be tight. Uh there aren't a lot of changes we're going to make here, but it's looking good. Unless anybody here has any concerns, issues, say them. You've got women because then we're going to move on to our That was my little sound. Sorry. I think you should also [Laughter]

Okay, let us go ahead and move on um to new business number seven. Backyard chickens household hens. Um going to report or give us a little little bit of a I mean I guess I can I mean we've got this thing that's in our agenda. Yes. which was basically from our meeting May because I missed June and July. This is what we had discussed and seemed to come to terms with uh as a group that this was what uh put forth.

And the big the big important thing and the reason why I had us put a map out here is for us to reconnect with where uh the zoning districts are that this indicates. So, if you go to your map somewhere else, so here's map lighting.

And if you go to uh the RLD, which is residential load density, etc. Um, and if you get your little magnifying glass out, you can kind of see where everything is on here, but it will it what's most important to see where indeed we're implying that chickens could go. Um C means uh conditional use permit required. When when a conditional use permit is required, does that require that the neighbors are notified and have to sign off on this? That is how the county does it. I was just wondering.

I don't remember seeing that in the code, but I will double check. Um the the the disappointment I have in this um is that we are not allowed to really put any conditions on this and it kind of concerns me um because even though we can put in setbacks, we can put in designated you know footage lineal footage as to how close to whatever setback we could do that but we can't put in the conditions that it is in A um we can't put even that they're in a completely enclosed coupe, can we? We can't even do that.

I I did put that in here, but I think that it might not it might not be able to be done through that may have to come out of zoning and be done elsewhere. So, the only thing that we would be allowed to recommend would be setbacks. Setbacks. The number of chickens I think we're okay to have. The number of chickens are okay. That that I believe is going to be okay. And location. So no front yard type. You know that location setbacks, but we can't put anything about coups and runs maybe fully enclosed or must be fully. We can't put any of that in there.

Well, I have coupoops and run must be fully enclosed. I think that can be in there, but I could be I could be incorrect there. Um, a lot of a lot of what needs to be done is it needs to, you know, needs to be considered needs to be considered by the town council. Yes. And so, yes,

I don't think that if if you recommend this over to them, I don't think the town council is going to take it and just adopt it, right? They're going to say, "Well, what about this concern and that concern and the other concern?" and then their staff is going to say, "Well, that's in this section and this section and this section of the code." And so I think if you recommend this over, it's going to be to town council to decide whether they're going to adopt it and and when they're going to be able to add all those other changes to the agenda. So I don't know how that timeline will work for them because I'm not their specific staff. So for example, if you wanted to put anything about all chicken droppings must be placed in enclo in enclosed containers

prior to composting prior to distributing to your garden what whatever it is the the whole we can't recommend that because that has to go into a whole another section of the code under waste management that we have no authority over correct

that we have no authority over. So I think my concern here is that we can't follow through on the specifics and we don't know if they will include or not include or how they will interpret what it is we you know the thought was. So in other words, all we can come out with is the setbacks, how far away from another house for a boundary, whatever, not in the front yard. These kind of things we can do as a planning and zoning group and then they have to go through and change all the parts of the code where all the other issues that would that we would want to talk about would come up. So like the waste management with the droppings. Um I would think having enclosed food there would be no section of the code where you have to have enclosed in an enclosed food container for

so it would probably all most of the other ordinances is pretty much handled under animal health or or their animal related ordinance. Yours is called animal health um which would need to be modified anyway because chickens are not permitted through that. So if they're going if they take the recommendation to update the zoning ordinance, they will also have to change animal health in order to allow it and that will lead to other I'm sure that they will have other discussions and you all are residents to go to town council meeting and express concerns regarding other parts of it.

Okay. So let's look at number one. Um, the principal dwelling shall be a single family detached dwelling. Okay, that one we know would we could put in we could use for sure. We can say okay to that one. Coupoops and runs are not permitted to project to minimum yard setbacks as defined in such and such. So it's already in the code setbacks are what you have in for the front or sorry for the okay side yards and then

so I guess that would be the next question is that the um is that the minimum that we want to have for the chicken coupoops is the current setback and again like with my yard up in uh over on the hill up there my I don't have a setback really my property literally goes up to within 2 ft of the house next to me. So the question is unless we put a um a setback for me, I could literally put my coupe almost, you know, well 8t from her window or less, not less. It would

it would be 8 feet, whatever. But I mean, the point is that's not far enough away in my opinion from somebody's window because it's not like all people take care of their chicken coops and they're sweet smelling. This goes back though to the argument of people have dogs that are not sweet smelling pooping one like it's right under. And so you know that's it is true except that um with droppings you can't always spawn the droppings are small and you can't always pick them and scoop them all up at one time. Dog poop I actually pick up and it's all gone and Yeah. But not everybody does. Yeah. They may not pick up the dog poop. And that's true too. I mean,

I know a house over on Sea Street that is fighting rats quite ferociously because they're the people next to them are not picking up dog droppings and like this is an issue. You know what I mean? And so, you know what I mean? these things happen but then you have to go through the enforcement that happen like it happens with regular radishes that that's happening through waste management or through animal

and and I do think a concern is like thinking of chicken droppings everywhere and this is an an enclosed I mean like we're talking about an enclosed run enclosed coupe that that's where it would be like this wouldn't yeah it wouldn't be freerange chickens that are

I understand that understand Coops clean. That's true. Um, okay. So, going back to number two, coups and runs are not permitted to project into minimum yard setbacks. How do you deal with my street where we don't have normal setbacks. We go like people across the street are the same way. their house goes right up to the house next to them. And is 8 feet a good enough a good enough distance when you have four poss potentially four chickens, you know, you know, and doing their thing. Is that far enough away? Because when you look at the housing of the um zoning districts um we have uh let me see my district is the um medium density area but then there's also low density um I mean I'm sorry high density wait a minute excuse me high density should not be here so we have why do we have so we even allow it in the high density area okay

I mean one One of the reasons why we discussed in May that we were that it seemed like we were had landed on the 8-foot setback is there are so many even with an 8-foot setback due to so many nonconforming lots and things. We were trying to make it as permissible as possible for as many people because there's relatively few people in town that under these circumstances even with like the 8 foot from various ways we were trying to make sure that some people could actually get them if they wanted but there are even in like the high density I'm guessing high density is going to have very little chance of having 8ft setbacks that it's a single family dwelling rear yard setback, a 20 foot year rear yard setback, 8 foot sideyard setbacks. There are going to be plenty of lots in the high density area that cannot fit within those.

Well, the high density is all HOAs, aren't they? The Winward Key and they're all the HOAs anyway, right? Or are no wait, excuse me. field and Bay View Hills are the HOAs, but also No, but we're talking about high density, which is the town homes across the street. If you look at HRD,

it's really the group across the street here, they're the the HOA. So, they really, even though it has C on here, probably to be accurate, would have to be NP because I know that that uh group would not permit it. Uh there's also an RHD over by um across I'm trying to think of where that is exact. Oh, it's behind us. Uh the um Pen Rollins, right? Chesig Station. Yeah. Well, oh, how about the Highlands? You're not thinking of the Highlands. No, no, no. If you look at RHD, it goes from the Windward Key. Oh, also back here. Back here. Back here behind um Captain's quarters.

Captain's quarters. Thank you. I couldn't think of captain's quarters. kind of doesn't matter if we say it's permitted or not in those because the HOAs aren't the HOA that's like we that was part of the reason. Do we know how many like how many liberal lots would be allowed to have them? Yeah. Like what's the number of probable I don't there aren't many because when you look at it none of the HOAs are allowing them because that's usually in their their CCNRs. So, if you're looking at um it's probably mostly just our section up here and then of course all of the RV2 which is behind

like behind um yeah, across from Baya, you know, that whole area back here, RV2s. Um now RC is the swampy area, so that's not going to You have a couple houses over there. Not a big deal. There aren't really a lot of houses actually. Um, a lot on old Bayside and South Park Town. No.

But I guess my big question is, does anybody have any concerns about not being able to put any more conditions on this before it gets to the town council or are we just going to give them a generalized blank check? Make sure you put everything in there in there that we want to for protection of people and animals and you know, are we okay with that? Usually I'm one for a lot of conditions just because I want to make sure I you know have control over it. But you know I like chickens. I've had chickens as pets. I mean we will have a little bit more um you know of of dog barking or whatn not because whenever dogs smell chickens they'll bark more etc. So yeah it's going to be a little bit more challenging to um to control in the town as far as noise and and smells whatnot. But you know what? I love chicken. So I'm I'm good with this. myself so I can get chickens. I can get my eggs now from you instead of

be inclined to want to get the chickens. I will tell you I I am one of the chicken lovers. I mean having chickens is also a responsibility. I mean you can't and it's not responsibility. It's not expensive. Not at all. It's more It's harder than a dog in my in my estimation. What do you think? You have chickens? I do. brings us in. I know. But anyway, I'm sorry. What were what were your opinions about it? I mean, my children take care of them and um so they don't bother me.

And your children come here and take care of her. I I don't I understand your point that we about feeling like oh we want to be able to say these things but I also think that there are you know checks and balances in government and that's okay that we're doing our part to say and I don't know it feels like there's so much to be said about it and the you know and will it get picked up by them but it feels like we can say these pieces and then I guess at a certain point we have to be like we have elected this town council to do their piece of the puzzle that we've only we've done our piece as well as we can

and also public comment I'm I'm really interested to to open it up to see what the people actually want and yeah because if everybody comes in and says like not in my backyard then it's we don't do it aren't going to have aren't we're are not going to be allowed most of you don't really care because you're not you know I do care because I want eggs from Oh funny oh very funny but it does you when it has come up in public places there seems largely it's in support and you know every now and then you get but it would be interesting to see who it happens and then that we can let the public you know

so then who ultimately has control are you saying that the town council because we don't have jurisdiction over certain parts of this we only can say it is currently allowed in planning and zoning so we're saying that part we would remove. So then there's other places it's still not allowed because so they have to do that. But we're just saying we would like to remove that level of the regulation. Doesn't do any good if we remove it and and they don't do it. So then like

okay I have to march myself to town council and like I don't know that I meant to become the chicken lady chicken own it now. I'm sorry. Can I play the chicken pa? Like you the when you come the whole thing, the song, the chicken dance, we'll do the whole number. We'll make you get your rubber chicken. The town council has expressed excitement to see what you present to them. Oh, I uh they brought it up at when I was here. There's like chickens. They talk about chickens quite a bit. So, yeah.

Okay. Okay, then. So, we've got one through five is all we can actually um put uh towards a a motion. So, would you like to be the motion lady as well as the chicken lady? Uh because I don't know that I've ever actually done a motion. It's two years. Um so, I just say actually what you can just move is you can read this entire thing is all because that's really going to be the motion. I would to include um uh backyard chickens conditional use in the art. You know, you can say all of that if that's what you want to do. Yes.

Or you can just you say as staff has presented in the um agenda. You could also say it that way. You can abbreviate if you'd like. So, whatever. Okay. But we're moving to pass this on our recommendation on to town council. Yes. As stated here. Okay. Yeah. Well, you would make a motion to uh present the to uh to move this item. We would then go ahead and second it and then we would talk about it one more last time and then we would vote on it. So then it would go to the town council. Then it's their job to and does and does her motion have to say that it gets forward to town council or is that a matter of course?

It will be a matter of course, but you could say yes and to transmit this to the town council. Yes, it all all of our stuff does go there anyway. So, I mean, you know, it's just a given, but you can state that if you wish or just say this what you want to say right here, unless you want to add one more thing. I don't know. Did you want to add anything to this? Nope. Nope. Uh motion to uh take the backyard chicken ordinance or statement as presented by staff and to present that to town council. um to essentially change ordinance. Amend amend amend ordinance. Amend that ordinance.

I'll second that. Okay. Any questions about this ordinance? One more time. Are any concerns, issues, any changes? Okay. Okay. All in favor? I I. Any opposed? We know what Larry would oppose. They didn't mean to do that. Did they really do that? They didn't really mean to do that. I'm sorry. Anyway, next we are done with that. Okay, so number three, overview of the coastal resency recommendation. We are starting. Sorry, Barry. Starting without you. Okay. Um, I have a slide presentation. Do you want me to do that or do you want me to Okay.

Yes, I would like to do it. We may have to do it again, but I don't think with this group it hurts to do it twice sometimes. I'm sorry. One sec. How long is that? Oh, it is 8 o'clock. It's 8:00 to take a kid to college. I'm sorry. How long will it take? Because it is 8:00 and we could complete it, but it's going to be what? I mean, it could be it could potentially be anywhere from 20 minutes to a half an hour or longer. Okay. Can I give you a quick overview, which would be five minutes or less?

Yeah. Okay. So for those of you who have not read this thing in its entirety, it probably be a good idea to read it on the coastal resiliency. We will be starting in full force of course next month along with our public hearing. Um and also we're going to bring up the home occupations. So you may want to reread that again. Uh but we are going to start with that also next minute. Do I have a motion to adjurnn? Motion to adjurnn. Do I have a second? Second. Any issues? Nobody want to stay here till 8:30? No. All in favor? I. Okay, I think we're all adjourned. Are you get your Thank you very much for attending. I was like, they are moving and I'm not sorry.

Okay. All right. So, you're not driving with me tomorrow. Beware at it starts at 1. Yeah. But it's better to get a little early. Yeah. Yeah.