Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Oh, thank you. Hello everyone and welcome to the planning and zoning commission meeting of the town of Chesapeake Beach, Maryland. Uh it is May 28th, 2025 and I would like to call the meeting to order and the roll call, please. Let's start with Commissioner Rut here. Oh, uh Rachel Weaver here. here. Okay. Mary Sman, present. Christopher Smith, present. Kelly Han, present. Thank you. Notice that uh we will note that all commissioners are present. Um can we all please stand for the pledge of allegiance? Ready? Begin. flag of the United States of America, indivisible. Okay. I'd like to ask for an approval of the minutes of the April I'm sorry, approval of the May 28th planning commission agenda. Move to approve the agenda. I'll second it. Any comments or questions? Okay. All in favor, please say I. I. Okay. Number four, approval of the minutes of the April 23rd, 2025 planning commission meeting. Do I have a motion to approve? Approve. Seconded. Any comments, questions? Okay. All in favor of approval say I. I. I. Thank you. Number five, we have a public comment to read.

I don't see anybody in the audience, but let me go ahead and read the public comment that we had. And we do appreciate anybody who does send us emails or or um come into our meeting actually and and share with us what you you're thinking about our current agenda items. Uh this is good evening. and I am the owner of the vacant bill of a vacant building and one day I would like to do a bay/crab mural on the outside wall next to the empty lot. What are the rules for basic art on the wall? Right now the wall is boring white. What are your thoughts? Thank you, Peter. Um and then down below we are um recommending that we you know have you come in and and offer some ideas as well about this. Um, of course, um, to address this, you would probably want to talk to, uh, Miss Sarah Franklin, our our planner. So, come on in and please u talk to her about it. These are this would be something you probably would find the answer to in our code, but maybe not. You never know. So, you'd have to probably ask her for specifics, but thank you for writing it in and and uh asking your question. Okay, now we're going to go on to number six, which is new business. We have the critical area commission letter and I would like to ask our our planning and zoning um planner, Miss Sarah Franklin, to give us a staff report, please. Yes, thank you. Um so we went through we got our critical area overlay passed through council and then it went to the critical area commission. Um they were pleased with it as well. Uh however, the time that it took us to go through all of that, state law changed. Um and so there are some new regulations that have to be included in our critical area ordinance uh that didn't need to be

included when we were adopting it. And so they've gone ahead and provided us with standard language that will include those elements. um they mostly have to do with resiliency to climate change and equity with relation to um growth allocations. So that's the largest part of the changes. You'll also see the change that um just got passed through by council um last week or the week before is requested in here, but now that's done. So don't have to worry about that one. Um, and I think that's pretty much it. I don't remember there being anything else. If you guys have any questions? Yes. Am I correct that even if ours our documentation had been more timely? Would not it still have been needed to be amended? Oh, yeah. So, this happened to lots of people who were adopt if you were adopting your regulations in the like fall this year. this is everyone's getting this. Um so it has nothing to do with our timeline. It just is timing if that makes sense. Absolutely. Thank you. Uh any other The only question I had was on Well, of course you sort of answered a little bit of it and that's about the growth allocation number two. Mhm. Um, first of all, of course, the growth allocation, which is now 100 acres, that's just been reduced because that's what's left is 100 acres obviously because they have that crossed out. If you notice on number two, 290-18 growth allocation number A. Um, I'm going down to what our original growth allocation was 141 and now they have 100red. Um,

yeah, there's we've been kind of going back and forth on the growth allocations and I guess in the end it was we had the wrong numbers. Oh, yeah. But, but it turns out we have more growth allocation than we thought we did. So, works out. So the town's growth allocation remaining as of date of adoption of this ordinance is 68.37 acres from 50. Okay. Yeah, it is a little this is a little confusing is why I'm asking. Yeah, that was calc the calculations that were done originally turn when the critical area staff turned over they looked at the calculations and went back and looked through everything. whatever this our ordinance has started out with and had been agreed on with critical area commission was actually incorrect. So staff corrected it. Okay. And the the reason I didn't think it was a big thing to fuss over is it turns out we wind up with more allocation than before. So felt like that wouldn't be a problem. Okay. Um, anybody else have any questions or or you know concerns about what they're reading here? As you can see the uh outs of course are what they're admitting and then the underline is what they're adding. So there's actually not too bad. It's not not a lot. Okay. I don't see any more questions or issues. Do I have a motion to actually you have a resolution here too, don't you? Yes. So you can send it over to council. Okay. So, basically I needed uh uh an approval to uh approval of this critical area uh the critical area commission letter and the resolution and I need the

approval to transmit it to the town council as well. So, actually can just be one big motion is all I need. So, who can give me that motion? Can anybody do that or should I Okay, I will move that. Okay, I will move that we approve the critical area commission letter and resolution and um also to transmit it to the town council. Do I have a second? Second. A second. Okay. He was Okay. Well, that's whatever. And any questions or issues? Uh okay, then. All in favor? I post. Okay, good. Next one is the annual report of the planning commission. Again, SE report, please. Yes. So, um every year you all file a report with Maryland Department of Planning. Um it is, you know, how many units have been developed in the town. Um it also asks you questions about where you are with relation to the comprehensive plan. um what kind of other planning activities you have going on and if there's anything in particular that the planning commission would be looking for assistance with from MDP. Um and I included in that coastal resiliency and climate change study implementation because I know that's our next big topic to tackle. If you guys have more we can add it. Yes. Where should I write? I was just maybe I missed it, but under number five, the box that was checked was no. And then in the box below, there's a box that checked sensitive area. Is that It seemed inconsistent to me that Yeah, you're right. That's the sensitive areas is kind of is incorrect

because there's really not any the I guess I guess we um It's the critical area regulations. I wasn't sure. Okay. Yeah, maybe I should say yes there. I'm just it's it's a little funny. I will update that. Okay. Just makes more internal consistency for me. Anyway, thank you. Any other questions or issues about um this report? Okay, seeing none, um uh will anybody make an uh a motion to amend and approve? Okay, seeing nobody, uh I will go ahead and make the motion to uh amend uh with the uh number five reading yes and um approve to transmit to the town council. Second. And do we have any questions or issues? Okay. All in favor? I done. Okay. Now we move on to signage. Good. We've got a lot to do here. So, um, we have to get to household hands at some point here, so I want to get us some time. Okay. Um, let's go into um our packet of uh the draft. And if we go to the definitions, which is B. Um, does anybody have any issues with any of these definitions? Um, and do you want to add any or subtract any? Yes, Commissioner Graceman. I could be just reading it wrong, but alteration, it says a change in the size or shape of an

existing sign, copy, or color, which sounds like a definition of alteration, then says is not an alteration. And I was just a little confused and maybe not I that just hit me. Um you will receive an answer from our bring it up for you professional here. Sorry this the sign that the screen was not connected. I apologize. Um and so we're on alteration. Yes. I think it's the changing the second sentence has to be capitalized. That's true. Yes. Okay, that makes sense. So, right. So, it's changing the size. The size the copy or color is not. Oh, this is this is an interesting is that the very definition of alteration? Yes, it is. Yeah, I think this might be better because this is talking about what is not an alteration rather than what is an alteration. Um, so maybe it should be saying any change to a sign with the the exception of size or shape. I think is the size or shape is an alteration, but the copy and color is not. I remember it. Oh, it says that. It's just that I I got it. It was the capitalization on everything.

Yes. So, okay. What What did we Okay. I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm having a little squinting time. Okay, so copy or change. Oh, thank you. Copy or color change. Oh, thank you. I see. I see. Got it. This could probably be organized better. What I'm looking at, but I can work on that. 66 sign. I don't know why these aren't just all. We just put these. We just need more commas, right? When you mean when you say copy, what do you mean? That's text. Yeah, we can say text. We watched too many madmen. Yeah, we probably should say text. Changing the text color or color color of changing text color or replacing assign face panel is not an alteration. There we go. That's better. Yeah. Should be changing the text, color, comma, or replacing. Thank you. I need to make this bigger. Can everyone see it? We would appreciate that. Okay. We want to make the first sentence a true sentence and put a verb in there or a change in the shape or or a ch a change. Okay. I guess the change is the is the verb. A ch instead of the alteration.

Well, but then you go right into another sentence. So it looks kind of a alteration is a change and Okay, there you go. Yeah, there we go. The text color or replacing a sign phaser, not an alteration. Yeah. Okay. So, we had I heard a commissioner say it's still confusing. And that is confusing because why wouldn't it be an alteration if you're changing the text color or replacing a sign face? Wouldn't that still be an alteration? But I guess it doesn't require a new permit because it's like the same size, right, and shape. Maybe it should say, but it says change size or shape. Changing the content. That's what it is. It's content versus Yeah. If you're changing the content in the sign, that's Why don't we use the word content? I don't know. Just How about we just make it simple? Yeah. As many words can. I'm sorry. I've heard I've heard this lawyer tell me that he likes fewer words. No, he's right. Words gives you fewer chances to misinterpret. True. Yeah. So, do we want to say changing the content is not considered an alteration? Because it truly is an alteration. True. So you want to say is cons is not considered an alter isn't or for the purposes of this section. Yeah. Right. For the purpose. Yeah. Exact. Okay. Sorry. We have only gotten to the A's. Yeah. It's too much. But I understand because technically Oh my gosh. Okay. Now, where are we on alteration? Alteration is a change in

the size or shape of an existing sign. Change in the content is not considered an alteration. Good. Okay. Perfect. Okay. So then um the next question is before alteration, do we want to have a um definition of an abandoned sign? Because I know that St. Michaels has that. Uh, and they have abandoned or dilapidated sign, but um, they have a whole definition in here. I just thought maybe we wanted to include because I don't think we have that. It's not in No, it kind of comes into the violation or the But I know that's a confusing issue to people. Well, it's not really abandoned because blah blah blah, you know, they're going to people can dispute what abandon really means. question though, do all does it make sense to define it until we've seen how we're using it in code later? But isn't the purpose of definitions so that when you read the code later code later that you've been given context? It's I mean it gives guidance because because what in the violations and enforcement sections talking about how the public works administrator can determine that a sign is unsafe or and there's also something about once the business is no longer there then the sign has to be removed in a certain number of days. Yeah, it's a big deal there. I don't know if the definition would need to include all of that or if the definition, you know, I just want to make sure that they're talking to each other, I guess. Well, and that you can't say it's not abandoned because it doesn't meet the definition of abandoned even though it's in violation of other parts of the chapter. Uh should I read what St. Michaels has there? Oh, I'm sorry. This

is Mount Ary. I've got about six different towns here. Um uh Mount Ary has abandoned or dilapidated any sign which has been expressly abandoned by its owner is out of date on its face and or is in poor condition. E example has faded or missing lettering has fallen down, become unattached or been significantly leaning without correction for two or more months. Has had its me message obscured by vegetation. is substantially damaged and or is otherwise not in condition to be seen in the normal course. I couldn't take that, but that's pretty spe that's pretty specific and I think that gives you a lot to go on if you have issues with a sign that is has got a problem. So, do you want us to include does anybody have a problem with us including something like that or what do you think Commissioner Weaver? Where is it used in the uh abandoned used in It would probably be uh down in our violations section, wouldn't it? Or no? Yeah, we would probably say something like or otherwise deemed abandoned. We We could put it in there. I don't think we have it in there right now, but I think we need to put it in there because that's a big deal. Um Okay. Hey, does anybody have any problems with that definition I just read? Can we just kind of steal it? I like it. I think it makes everything very clear. It It is expansive. Just tell me that's Mount Ary. That's Mount Airy. Okay, I'll I'll insert it later. Mount Air. I see. Definitely in this state. No, we don't have it. No, I'm sorry. All right. It's one of my uh many pounds I have on my desk here. Um and then Okay. So then we're at

animated. I'm sorry. The next one is animated. It doesn't say mount. What? I know what I mean though. We're good. That'll help me do what I need to do. Okay. Animated sign. Any sign that uses movement or change of lighting to depict action or create a spe special effect movement or scene. The question is have to find over here in the section on electronic signs seem to be um actually animated can al also be have you ever seen those signs where you have the clock hands moving around you actually have physical things that move is that animated I mean I've seen those signs too where you have the clock hands that go backwards and it's a clock. It's a watch maker. Silly things like that. Have you ever seen those signs? I've seen them where they actually are animated signs. You're not kidding. Sure, we have. I mean, it can it can be either a physically animated sign or it could be a digital it's it's movement or change of lighting. Yeah. But we want that definition so that when somebody goes back to look in inside our text, they understand it, right? Is an animated sign allowed or not allowed? Well, you have to read the the rest of it to know. This is just a set of definitions. Most of these are not addressed in in the text of what what we have. I I would throw out all but about five and uh and leave the rest unless unless they're directly addressed in in the

con. Yeah, I think when we talked about them initially, we said let's leave them all here and when we get done, we'll pull out anything that we don't reference. Okay, we'll put a question mark and just see if we want to get back to that. Okay. Any any other A's? No, we're on to the I'm sorry. Go ahead. But I think what Commissioner Brown is saying, do we have to go through point by point on all of them if we're not necessarily needing to include all of them? Is that correct, Commissioner Brown? Like, so which ones, you know, for the sake of our own time and moving it forward, which ones do we cover? Let's work on those definitions. And like if we're like, yeah, well, there's really no need to talk about a balloon sign specifically. Do we have to? So, I had them at the end kind of for that reason, but I know you guys wanted them at the beginning, so I moved them to the beginning. Um, but yes, it will I think because as we get into, we were talking about temporary signs and what's allowed with a permit, what's not allowed with the permit. Are we going to add animated signs, balloon signs, banner signs to that list? We haven't really gotten there yet. There's that. Plus, also we're catching mistakes like what we caught with the first one. You know, things that don't read correctly or confusing. So, I think, you know, I know this seems a little wordy and and tedious, but I think when we submit an ordinance to the town council, we want to have it as tight as we can get it in my opinion. And sometimes I think it's things gets kind of I've not really seen sausage being made, but you know, it's sort of what goes on behind the scenes. You have to kind of move pieces around to understand the totality before then you can really start winnow winnowing it down and I understand what you're saying in other words. Okay. Yes. Commission, do you have a question? Yes. We have 51

definitions. How many of those definitions are used in the regulation? Well, I haven't seen number eight. I I you know I don't remember number eight but then again number eight is possibly something Oh sorry I am my Oh yeah I'm I'm sorry number why do you have a different number than I have cuz she just changed the one to add abandon sorry I'm talking about changeable copy sign okay that's no because I added the um abandoned sign so my numbers are different okay yeah so I'm talking about a changeable copy sign which is apple after canopy sign. I would think all these other ones we have seen I have seen them in our um balloon signs a lot of people are actually um prohibiting balloon signs because they're tethered and they're not always safe in wind etc. I don't know do we uh prohibit them or not? Be above the height of the building. That's what we say right. Um, it has to be so uh of of a size limitation. I I don't see where balloon signs really fit into what we've written. We can include it, but it's not there now. We refer to balloons somewhere, right? Huh? We refer to them somewhere later on. Yeah. In the definitions. And that's all. Oh, no. There was a hot air balloon sign, but I think we removed it. I know that one time we we had we had a balloon, but the problem is there's always there always people that want to have balloons of some sort. And the question is, do we want to identify what a balloon sign is? Um, we want to identify whether it's allowed or not. Well, and we should we probably need to

do that. A lot of the towns have, as I say, prohibited them, but again, I don't, you know, it's not something that I'm wedded to one way or the other. Um, would it be okay, would it be better to start working on the regulation and then if we reference one of the definitions, then we highlight it that we know and we it's there. We look at it then and we look at that definition and then those that are not highlighted that we didn't work on we decide whether we want to keep them or not because 51 definitions it's going to take us a couple meetings to go through them and that some of them may not be relevant. Well, and in fact, if you take a look, there are I I mean, all of these, as I have looked, have been through, you know, have been in here one way or the other. But if you want, let's go ahead and move off of this then and move on to temporary signage, which is something that we really do need to work on. And temporary signage, in my opinion, is what towns have the most challenge trying to um uh make sure that it's under control because that's where you see a lot of the weekenders bringing their signs out. You see a lot of abuse and misuse of the temporary temporary signage regulations. So, if we go to P Well, of course, my page is probably different than your page, but I have a page 16 is where or 15 is where my temporary signage starts. I don't know. I guess we're all different, so I shouldn't even ask. Does everybody know where we are on temporary signage? Um, I have it on 12. As do I. In the draft. Okay. I'm sorry. It should be on page 12 now. A whole other world. Those are all his are all I have and you can search very easily. Yeah, you got some that are not really the same. I think probably

No, yours is now we're all different here. Do you want my paper version here since I don't I have another one. Larry, we always knew that. Oh, here you go. This might this might be a little bit more. Okay. So So let's go to D. Um I know the question I asked you all was to think about um temporary signage. Do we want to permit any or do we want to keep them um with you know not needing a permit? Uh so we have to think about that as we're reading through here. Um now the one thing that we don't do under general regulations uh at least that I see is we don't identify a certain time period like no more than 30 days more than 30 days it's considered you know needs a permit and it's not temporary. Uh do we want to add it should be 30 consecutive days. Do we want to add longer shorter? Do we not want to add the amount of days? Um and if you want to go through uh she has under or not she but the the draft has under general regulations uh of course that they should be wellmaintained of course um that B comply comply with all the regulations etc. see uh the area of the sign and what it should have on it as far as the text um and then then how you compute the the the size. So in looking at one I think in one we probably should have the fact that temporary means temporary you know that it's a timelimited situation. Does everybody agree with that? I mean that's So, what does everybody think as far as time? Uh, a lot of towns do 30. Some do

before the holidays, they add an extra month. It varies. So, I I just want to know what you all think about how this town should look at temporary. I think whatever we choose like whatever date you choose if I mean I'm not saying that there couldn't be like a uh um you know like an extension like possibly like if it goes beyond whatever set date that we allowed to be able to if if if if whatever does but I think 30 days is is a is a good amount of time for I would maybe to me it seems easier than having like special holiday rules and not holiday rules and I feel like lots of people and since holiday and seasonal decorations are covered in it. I don't know. It seems like maybe going up to 45 days so that you cover the whole holiday period without anybody being in violation a little more easily cuz truly those are going to be up I mean they're going to be up on town hall for two months. Do you know what I mean? like so we might want it to be closer to 60 days because if you're putting it up before Thanksgiving and you're not taking it down till one of the first weeks of January, you're at six weeks easily and some people anyhow I think I think 60 days but I don't I think it shouldn't I think it should be 60 days of the year and it doesn't matter whether or not they're consecutive since there are some places that light theirs up and then take it down and and it just makes it easier if you have a broad amount of time as opposed to categorizing it. For me, it just feels like then you're not making two different sets of things and think like just make it so it holds holds holiday and then go from there. Yeah. Personally, and that's for all temporary signs. It seems to me it's just easier. I mean I there are some temporary signs I know we wouldn't necessarily want up for two months but we also would but then would that also include like the

real estate signs because that's aren't they and then you don't want those up for well and such yes go ahead I what I'm typing as you're talking so the period for displaying a temporary sign shall be no more than however many days unless a more limited period is specified ified within this ordinance. So that covers your real estate signs. Thank you. So what how many days would we want to go for? Do we want to go for 45 or 30? Well, but I also understand that let's say for holiday decorations and sales and things like that, there's so much time involved installing. Yeah. that I'm not sure that between 45 and 60. I kind of leaning towards the 60. I mean, that is like how, like I said, that's how long the town has up their stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that would seem it doesn't seem nec I would hate to enforce something even if we were like got a permit to keep it longer but then we're telling other people that they can't that doesn't I I agree with that we want to be even so um it would be 60 consecutive days in 60 to I think it should be 60 total days in a year right well that's a problem your problem is who's going to enforce that compliance and also just trying to code enforce that situation? Um, Miss Franklin, what do you think? Think if you just say 60 days, if you have someone who starts like putting it up for 60 days and

taking it down for three and putting it back, then you can enforce it, right? Um, but generally you're you have the you have the leeway to enforce someone who's sort of abusing it. Where's that leeway written? That's why I think it should say 60 calendar days, not just 60 consecutive days because then they could break it up and then come back in like if you've done it, if you've put up that I mean I know that there are some places that they've had issues. you know those like big plastic skeletons that like people put up and like that's been like a big thing in some communities cuz then people are like well I changed it for a different holiday or I take it down for a little bit and put it back up and like so is that what I mean I don't I don't should it say the time period for displaying each temporary sign shall be no more than 60 calendar days in a year except for anything that's unless yeah Well, real estate signs are part of the these temporary signs we're talking about. But there's a Oh, you have a house that doesn't sell for two months. You have to take the sign down. Well, they are saying that there's going to be unless Oh, unless more limited. But you're right. What do you do if you've got a is the real estate sign though? They can keep those up. I feel like it has to do with they have to get a permit actually instead of saying let me go back to where that's like totally then then we can just modify what it says on the real estate just say until it sells unless a different time period. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You change that part of it because you're right. It there's two different pieces to the real estate signs. To go and modify the real estate one as well. I think the real estate one is accurate, but let's find it because in the definition it says any sign that is

intended to be displayed for no more than is permitted by regulation. Yeah. So that means depending on what sign it is, it follows that regulation. Okay. So we've kind of got the idea that now for temporary we need time. We got that. Um, and if we go to number two, I think number one then generally for everybody looks okay now that we've got the time period in there. Is there anything else in general regulations under temporary signs that we need to include or change? Sale sign. Well, wouldn't a sale sign be considered one of the 60-day one. I mean, h how do you want to be specific on that? What do you mean by that? You mean like a like um a store wants to do? Yeah, we talk we talk about other kinds of signs, traffic signs, government signings, holiday and seasonal declarations, large flags, directional signs, signs, advertising changes in schedule of event directing patient patrons, members or audience to a temporary exhibit sandwich. Real estate [Music] sign, temporary signs announcing a campaign, drive, or event of a civic, philanthropic, educational, religious organization. You want to add a commercial, you want to add a commercial um promotion, a promotional commercial type sign. You want to add something like that and which they do have in some

of these others. Yes. question though. I mean, this is something I had kind of said last time and I still does doesn't every wouldn't any sale sign be one of these other types of signs? That's why it seems to me it makes more sense to regulate what the like material and what they are versus like thinking about what they're doing, what their function is. Yeah. because it's going to be a building sign or it's going to be a banner sign or it's going to be one of those other things like we don't care if they're saying a sale or a holiday or a which so what kind how are you envisioning it? It would be different depending on how you did it. Are you doing it as a sandwich board? Are you doing it as a how like what sale sign wouldn't be one of these other things? Well, what sale sign would be one of these? That's well it would be a sandwich board or it would be a banner or the problem is with under temporary we put a lot of functions. The question is can we just put regulations that fit all signs temporary and otherwise get some of the redundancy out of it because a lot of it seems redundant. um and take the function uh except for real real estate's a function we have to have in there because of of its unique nature. Um but uh and direct but direction signs shouldn't be under temporary direct directional signs are they under temporary for some reason. Well there so sort of to just like back up I rearranged the ordinance per discussion. Yeah. Um, so that means things are in multiple places, right? So they're they're in temporary and they're impermanent and they're impermanent because you might be having a yard sale and then you're sticking those. Oh, okay. That would be

directional. I got it. Like an arrow or something, I guess. Okay, that's a good point. But I think that's the the point of RA and I think we talked about this as well is should we just say like a list of types of signs that are allowed instead of what's on them. I think that's the question that Commissioner Brown and Commissioner Weaver are asking. Yeah. is we're saying you can advertise a schedule of events, you can direct patrons, but if we just said you can have a banner sign, a pressboard sign of X size or that more sense to me. It does. Then it doesn't matter what they say as long as they not have seen our That's what I think too. That's exactly cut out like quite a few of these that we don't have to like signs directing patrons, members or audiences. Like that doesn't need to get into that or like it would be considered an event sign. So, couldn't you just have the definition be what you use? So, in other words, the you know, you'd have event sign and that would explain all of the words that that uh Rachel just said. I think there's this question, right, of now that it's reorganized, what happens next to the ordinance, right? And is it here's a you know like you said like a list of the different types of signs. Um or do we want to well and you're real estate is real estate right? It's going to be its own a separate thing. Yeah. Um but then you don't have to say an event sign. You don't have to say a sale sign. You don't have to say anything about what's on the sign. You're just regulating the type of sign and then probably the overall size and height and maybe number of signs. All right. So, let's if everybody's in agreement, I

think that's the way we should be headed. Okay. Try and minimize how many words we're using in here. Minimize redundancy. Um, I know I I showed um, Miss Franklin today that like if you go to Annapolis, they just have a list of like 10 things that are exempt and they're basically using the definitions and just these are exempt. You're this and this and you know that's just 10 words basically is all it is. So, it's real easy once you get the definitions appropriately put in there. Um, so I guess once we then it addresses Commissioner Brown's item issue with the commercial, once we take everything else out, then it's not going to look like commercial is being left out. Right. Right. Does that address your issue? Sort of. We'll see how it looks when at the end of the day here. So then the next question is, are you still typing? Do I not want to talk while you're typing? No, you can keep you can talk while I type. So the next question then is, do we want to have um permit versus uh non-permitted use or just have all of them non-permitted? We're temporary. You don't have to I mean here's one I have to What's that? That was actually my question. I was like I had a question on this and that's Well, that's what I know. That's what I ask everybody to to think about is do we want to permit any of the temporary signs. Um, and we have to keep in mind that we have uh very limited staff. Uh, we have to be kind to our our um commercial and business um family here that we have in Ches Beach. So, we have to think about that as well. Um, and but on the other hand, we don't want abuse. So, we have to find some kind of

compromise. Can we? Now, there are some towns, for example, Annapolis, where they don't have any signs that you can have without a permit. They're all permitted signs, temporary and otherwise. And then you've got a whole you got other towns that have a long list of temporary signs. So, it's it everybody has a different, you know, different way of looking at it. What are you what are your thoughts about this in your professional opinion? I think that you might where you might want to use a permit is if you start talking about these balloons or hot air balloons. If you decide you want to bring those back in, that's sort of a bigger sign that might waver, you know, move around. If that's something you want to allow, maybe those are the ones that require a permit. If you don't want to allow them, then this section is unnecessary and just let everything happen. I when I was reading about the sandwich the A-frames, I thought those should be permitted only because there's so much opportunity to um have a safety issue. Um and a lot of people did permit that. That was a a big one that they permitted. Um so if there was anything I would want to uh permit it, it would be that one. But then there were towns that didn't. So it you know, I'll go with whatever you guys think. But you talk, you know what I'm talking about with the A-frame, the sandwich or I won't call it sandwich, but the A-frame sign that you put on a sidewalk and you know if you don't put them in at night or if the wind blows, you know, you could hurt people. They could fly out into the How does permitting change that? It doesn't. That's you would just if you abuse it or you don't uh use it correctly, you just lose a permit. You lose the opportunity to have it. is just a a way to have somebody focus on what they have to do to protect the use of that that board that you know sign. So the only one I really caveat

the other one other than Ridgefield Station that uses it sometimes for food trucks so that it doesn't blow away is I see it all over town for when they are flushing the pipes. Right. Right. That's true. Um, but I like the idea of of permitting things like balloons and things like that because that or not. I don't care. I mean, I don't care. I not sure. I wonder whether one way or the other. You obviously have an issue. Well, no, I don't. I mean, permanent of course gives because what is it? $35 or something for a permit. So, you know, from a town and the fiscal might give some more money to the town, but I don't think that the permit necessarily it it it's not it to me it doesn't really do much. Doesn't achieve the compliance or doesn't achieve what your goals are. the violation fees could. But it also feels to me I'm just opposed to having any things that we're not like going to actually be enforcing. And I feel like giving ourselves more things to badly enforce is not the ideal. Like and that feels like that's just adding one more layer of like where violation could happen. And I don't think the amount that we're going to bring in is going to exceed the amount that it's going to cost the town in traffic. I think that's okay with it. It would probably cost more to permit them than it would because if you take into consideration how many people have to touch that paperwork. Exactly. I don't to get that permit approved and how long that permit's good for. And all the time that you know questions that have to be answered and just staff

time. Yeah. discussing it with some an applicant. We all know I do regulations and for work and so if we don't have to have a regulation here for something like this because I don't see people abusing it when I'm locally. Yeah. So right now I would put this on hold and say we don't permit it unless we see in the future that it's being abused and then we come back and look at it then. So they just generally don't have permits with temporary signage. Okay. And I think we just And then because the one thing that seem to be of concern is the balloons. I just don't think they should be allowed. Like I feel like those should be in the nonpermitted nonpermitted. A lot of people have that in the nonper in the exemp exemp or not exempt but the prohibited the prohibited group. How are you feeling about this? Well, under under what we've got right here, I don't know how you would get a balloon height of a building. Have to make a special. Yeah. Yeah. So, maybe we don't even have to specify it because it doesn't it wouldn't be it wouldn't be allowed. It would be the kind of balloons where you have them like a car lot has them where they're just enough to flutter and make motion so that you can see where five square feet. Okay. Be sarcastic. See if I care. Okay. All right. So, we've come to a conclusion about not not worrying about the permitting of the temporary signs. So, if we look down on number two, uh on page 12, government regulatory signs. Do we need to put the government regulatory signs in uh an ordinance since we know that the government's going to do what they want anyway? Or is that you mean at

the top? Well, under number two where it says to be to be or not to be. Uh I don't know. Do we just need to have an extra, you know, have that in there? I think it's a you can't have someone come back and say, "Oh, they just do whatever they or A." A or B. Because you're saying official traffic signs. That means government traffic signs, right? Or what does official mean? Yeah. Government. I would say Maryland state. Yeah. Well, you're meaning the town of Chesby or any government. Should we just put is it official? Should we put government? So, I would think that like if HOAs wanted to put in a that they're going to have signs on their private roads too that right say stop or children crossing or deer c like those signs those get installed by the HOA am I wrong or for a private road for Richfield station most of our roads are public except for the townhouse roads that some of them that haven't been turned over yet. So, I think there's some private roads in town that are in HOAs and so they might need to put in official traffic sites. I just don't we don't make them official. Um, I guess you know you can't draw your own stop sign and install, but it's it's an official I guess installed by whoever whoever owns the road. I mean, in Richfield Station in our area where you can park, where we do the food trucks, we have signs that basically says you cannot park overnight. This is not for parking overnight. I mean, technically it's a parking spot and not a road, but

that's an HOA who did that. An HOA did that. Um, but is it graphic? I Yeah. You know, this is an interesting point because we have a lot of people who put up their own signs that in front of their houses that say, "Don't park here. Don't use this part of the street." And it's it's it's a real uh you know it's a city a city street or town street. But do we need to change official to make it more specific? Do we want to put in uh you know designated HOA slash I would call an HOA and a government entity but it's not. So I don't know uh what uh specific terminology we could be to be specific but doesn't matter. Am I getting too crazy here on on words? I don't know. I mean, I think I think it's okay the way it is. Okay. Okay. I'm good with that. I'm good with that that uh Okay. So, um when you go to C sub I there number one, I'm sorry, you have there shall be no more than X of such signs on each building face. So, do we want to insert something there or no? Yes. The reason there's an X here, I believe, is because there was discussion about how many should be allowed. Um, and there wasn't an actual resolution. So, I left the X as the placeholder pending a resolution as to how many. So, this is a temporary sign we're talking about without a permit. Do we just want to say uh do we want to determine the size of the building face and say no more than uh one per size you know building that's a a face that's a

blank blank by you know blank blank or I mean how do we want to identify the the building face size? Was this the one that we were talking about with the octagon and the beer signs? That was one of the things got that got brought up. Yes. Because your problem is we don't identify the size of the sign. And the problem they used to have a whole bunch of signs, one face, I remember at one time they they're now down to one size, one sign per face. Um, but to reduce clutter for temporary signage, do we just want to put one sign just to make it easy since uh it can otherwise go out of control? You're saying one side? One sign on a face on one. So the octagon has eight sides. Eight pieces. They beat the system. I was thinking they already knew how to do a building. There'll be a lot more buildings built like that. Do we want to just have one? Right now, they have one sign per face for temporary signs. Actually, I think that's a per I don't know if those are permanent or temporary, but anyway. Do we want to have them allow them have more than one to to me? Uh, if they're small, I mean, maybe two would be fine, but it depends on the size of the sign. And it Are we dancing here? What are we doing? Um, I turned my phone totally off. So, no, I didn't. Is that your phone? Yes. I can see you did a good job turning it off. Music. It's

lovely. Okay, so I'm sorry. I'm I didn't mean to make fun of you. So, um, what do you think would be the do we want to have a proportion of signage, temporary signage to size of wall? I think you're thinking about the octagon and it's eight faces, right? But any any building, right, maybe only has one face. And so if you limit it to one, you're actually limiting more people for in consideration of one specific building. Um, so I would say either tie it to the area or allow more than one sign per face. Uh, okay. Okay. Does anybody have any any I would I would just put the word one in there and just let it go. And uh probably people won't even read this anyway and do put two or three up there anyway. So I just say one. But that's what I feel like we're avoiding to me. I'm like if what do we want to Don't say one if we're going to allow three. I would much rather than say let's put up three because if we're doing this well okay then you're going to have to go by size of either the the building frontage uh because most of the buildings in this town just have a front a one face on the front. The octagon is just we can't even compare it to anything else. So, if we just say that everybody has, let's just look at the um the antique building across the street or the the uh you know where they sell out furniture. He has one face. Uh and so he should have

um I know he has sometimes we'll have temporary signs around there, but how would you identify with windows? Windows is covered. Mhm. So you're saying you could have temporary signs in the windows, too. So you can do that, right? So this is where it gets to be complicated. That's why I said, let's make it easy and just do one. I mean, I can't figure out how else to do it. Um, now in mount area, if you want to use them, the total area of all attached signs per use or business on the premises shall not exceed that. Looks like it's going to be shall not exceed one square foot per building front foot. So they're measuring the frontage footage and they're they're using that as their idea of how many of how many square inches or square feet of signage I can have. I believe you do that as well. Um impermanent sign right here. Well, but then when you use Yeah. See, this is where it gets to be like a sign that you have that you're permitting is now we're getting a little bit tedious on measure everything and you know, now you're getting to being like a permitted sign, right? A wall sign or a window sign. So, I guess the question is if you're just talking about a temporary only 60 days or less sign, um I don't know. I I I think it should be one because you also have your regular signs that are permitted and part of the uh permanent scene. So if you have one temporary sign also for

60 days, that's quite a bit in my opinion. I'm just trying to visualize. So this is only for temporary. This is not That's correct. We're just talking temporary right now. So this would be like Christmas sale, Christmas poinsetta, whatever. and and tempor temporary in addition to permanent. Yes. Yes. So that's right. So you're really adding to how much signage they would have during the Christmas season or whatever if you're going to add um you know 60 days of an extra sign. So that's why you have to be very careful about allowing too many temporary signs. At Christmas time you could just have a whole bunch of temporary signs all over the place. Um, let's just go with two. That's what I was the A-frame that you were concerned about, right? To for people to get the eye to see it. And then they have one on the building. I was thinking like with the octagon, you know, that's going to reduce for them, you know, I guess some of the they're temporary signs, but two seams. Can this be any size? Can you have two long banners? Can you have uh I mean, but what do we say here? Well, that's okay. Now he's coming up with how many square feet they go back to. We go back to size again. Then we're talking about signs that are less than four square feet in area. Okay. Okay. So, okay. So, there we have it right there. on any on premises sign that has a total area of less than four square ft. Right there you've got the answer right there. So you want to allow two of

those and also then their permanent signs. So we've got already the size right there. So two is a nice happy number. It's even number. Even number. You have one on this side, one on that side. I you know what? Why not? Of course, the signs on the window and then you have your little window signs, too. You could still have a lot of sign clutter. I I mean, maybe this is like the I'm hearing all of this and I'm thinking about all of the signs from the different places and what could be permitted and what could be and like all I'm like, is there a more elegant solution? Is there just like Yeah. also just like having this and maybe this is out of turn completely but it's like does it matter if they're temporary or permanent should just be like we don't care what sign you put up but this is just the limit for any business like based on size and that you like clean it up. It's like if it's temporary, if it's on a window, if it's per like that it's just like you get a certain amount of signage whether that goes in a banner on the yard in a but like you get this many square feet and it's based on the size of your building and like we don't care what you do from there but that's what everybody gets. Like I think that's because there is something to this like each one and then you add this and you're like okay but then if they do these feathers and this thing and they're allowed this and that what about their open sign and I don't know it just feels like school the number of signs that have limit to the square footage right would make more sense like we don't have to make a decision they get to decide what their allowance does that it's like you get you know, 20% of your building face and then you can have up to 10% of whatever your

building face is in things that go in the ground off the building or whatever. And it just feels like granted, like I said, I wish this had occurred to me a couple months ago, but like do you know what I mean? I'm hearing all of this and it just gets really complicated where it feels like that there is a way of saying here's your allowance. do with it what you want and that keeps it limited that we don't have to like decide each one. Sorry. So I don't know how I think that makes sense. Well, that is how a lot of a lot of newer towns work it that way. They don't allow temporary sign here. They don't allow any of that. None of that. And that's the town I'm from. We don't we don't allow any temporary signs. None. Temporary. It could be not temporary. It's like you will get this much space. The problem is when you go into a a master sign program when you first start up your business, usually you want to maximize how much signage, permanent signage you can have, then you max it out. Then you can't have any more rest of the year because you've maxed it out on your master plan. Well, cool. But that's what you you did like you made the choice. I mean, if you go that route, I'm fine with that, too. I mean, I'm just saying that that seems like easier to enforce in some ways and to say like when people come in with the sign and saying like, "Hey, you've maxed out your signage, that means you don't get any temporary signs." That could be a choice you could make because you're like, "I'm not going to have tacky temporary signs or anything." Yes. Except that even if it's I don't know that I would feel right about limiting some a business. Well, you should have known that we were going to make these changes, so you should have gotten a smaller permanent sign because now you can't based on the count the formula, you can't have temporary signs. And I don't that doesn't seem fair. And the other thing is that just because it might make our job easier to to to try

and harness all these ideas, I don't know that that still would really help the businesses. And so maybe we I mean I because I think that there are certain situations where a temporary sign is appropriate and I don't think we'd want to bind a business. Well, for example, feather signs I think are temp I think of them as temporary signs and you know I mean we use them a lot in every town uses feather signs all the time. So what do you want to consider them? Do you want to consider them temporary and part of their signage master plan? I mean where do they fit in? Um, I mean I guess that's where I would say in this elegant solution that exists only in my head now where it's like you get this amount. Yeah, this amount I think you would have an allowance of like this is what you get on your building and this is the amount that you get off your building if it's in if if it's off the building as in you get to use that as a sandwich, you get to use that as a feather, you get to use that as a do you know what I mean? any of those things that could be temporary or not, but like it that those would be your two allowances to do with what you wanted. Um, okay. And and I just think that the allowance we wouldn't make it so restrictive that people have already like blown their budget but that while because what is easier for us I also think is easier for other people to understand and when they are in or out of regulation like we are doing this thing that is creating something that is feels very hard and I think that oftentimes then the result is just like well screw it like I'm just going to put up my side and see what comes. Yeah. Catch me if you care. Yeah. I mean, that's how I would feel a little to be like, what's going on here? Anyhow, uh how do we want to proceed with that?

What do you think? So, I I think well, from an enforcement perspective, right? What you're going to have is is no one's going to measure percentage of signs, but you're going to easily be able to say like that one feels wrong, right? like that one feels like it's more and then the measuring happens. Um the other piece of that is you're talking about allowances for on the building and allowances for off the building. You could have like a 5% allowance for temporary signs, too. And then that resolves those concerns there. Um, so I think it it makes the enforcement easier and that you're sort of eyeballing things and you have a sense of when things are larger and then you have to measure it instead of like okay how many s you know running through a bunch of lists. Um, so I mean I'm not the code enforcement officer but that's my yeah I don't know you're presenting. Okay. So, I like the idea of having so much a percentage of the wall sign and then maybe off the- wall sign. So, you could have maybe a feather or a you know, whatever or a sandwich board or whatever. But I I think we should allow, as you say, maybe 5% of their signage program could be that or or whatever. Or if let's say someone is allowed X for their permanent sign and they only use half of X, can they then transfer the some additional temporary sign get some so like yeah transfer over to the other um I don't know just uh I'm sure that in this little town I don't think anybody's going to really care you know I mean it just it the the

the real concern in this town is just not allowing too much clutter and having people abuse so much, you know, a certain situation. And, you know, when I first moved here 10 years ago, it there was massive sign clutter to me because on the West Coast, they don't allow anything like what they allow here. It's just it's all very precise. Everything's small and minimal and you know, signage is the last. You just, you know, you just quietly put your sign up and that's it. There's none of this big in a little tiny town. you'd never have an elect a big electronic sign. You'd have maybe a little like the one the school has and that would be it. But um we're pretty free here with our different types of signs and I'm okay with that here. It's the history of this town. But I think we have to be careful that we want to make it fair for people but yet not make it so ugly and you know just too much. The sign takes away from the environment which is also the bay and all that. Um, so we have to be environmentally sensitive, I think, as well. Um, it's it's a I mean, we have to a balancing act here. We really do. It's we've got uh people who come here to look at the bay, they're not even though we do have a casino town, a casino town, which we have four at least four casinos, I think maybe five, they're noted for their signage. They're noted for their flashing lights and their, you know, and their attractive, you know, bring, you know, come on in and let's play. And that's uh that's just the nature of a casino town. So, we have to be cognizant of that. We can't just say, oh, you got to have a little tiny nothing sign. Um so, I'm, you know, I'm okay with having um especially when there's holidays or there's something coming up that we need to identify, you have to bring out that temporary sign because it's a special event, whatever. then you have you can't just have what you had in your master

plans, you know, when you started up. You've got to add that extra square footage or square inches or whatever it's going to be. Um I I would like to say that any temporary sign within the 60-day limit, you could have an extra 5% of signage. um 5% for the compared to the total amount of square footage of their the face of their of their building. That would be how I'd look at it. But I I know that, you know, let's just not even worry about it, but I think we have to identify something. You're saying that would be on the building itself. Well, the 5% would be the extra. So, it' be the extra, not the permanence. That would be the temporary signage. But oh, if you want to put a temporary sign up. Yeah, I think probably might as well include the Yeah, if you want them on the building, I don't care. So So you don't have a sign, so you get the permanent plus the extra. Yeah. I mean, I think I think to be realistic, I think we have to be that way. I think we have to be flexible because that's life in the in the town where you've got, you know, a lot of exciting things happening. You've got, you know, a beer fest here or whatever happening there. you wanna, you know, show people where things are at and where it's, you know, where we're, we don't want it to get too sloppy, but um sloppy medium. So then do we add a add 5% to I and then create a three or and then say total coverage between temporary and the other makes it 25%. of total area so that it's clear because if you're giving them 5% of additional additional and then it's

20% regular that's has to the wind so the window trickier because you don't want to you don't want to close up the window a window well what do we have for the total wall that well I mean we have to probably look what the wall so the other thing is you could Just make window signs part of your overall like whether it's in the window or on the wall, it's still part of whatever your percentage is. Well, that's what it should be. No window can be blocked more than 20%. Right. So that you keep that open. Yeah, that has to be. And you guys want to I think this is what you want to see. This table, where did it go? To to me in this world then there's all sorts of stuff we can like not like it all goes into that. We don't have to regulate then each little part of it because we're just regulating the amount why why can't you block a whole safety and security? Yeah, it has to do with code compliance. Has to do with code compliance because if something's going on inside of a building then the police can see inside of it and have an idea. We want to have Yeah. I mean there's a gun to someone's head. I have like my drapes pulled. The police police can't see there. It's different. Commercials a little they do. I mean I know that it was about egress and ingress and ventilation and this and that. Got a window that doesn't open. If you have a window that doesn't open, can you cover it entirely? it. You know, I hate to say it, but one of the things like in in on the West Coast again, they don't allow you to cover any window. Not at all. You're not allowed to put any sign in any window at all. But you're not on the West Coast, so there's that. Yeah. I'm just saying. But there's a

reason why. There's a reason why. Because when you're on the inside, it's nice to have the light coming in, and when you're on the outside, it's nice to be able to look in. So, to them, it's an aesthetic. You know, it's it's pleasing to have signs on your window. just kind of looks like h you didn't do a you know it's kind of a cheap job of putting your signage up just stack it on you know just put on the window and put a piece of tape up there and you're done. So it's a matter of how things are presented and it's pathetics mo mostly. But yeah I know I mean yeah I know we're used to window signs out here so I'm good with that too. Whatever you guys want. So okay let's let's conclude this. Um I was just going to say what you would do is this is a chart further down but you would basically instead of number of signs there would be a percentage. Yes. Um yes instead of Yes. Why don't we go ahead and put a percent? We if that's okay with everybody else. How about if we do that percentage? Even though nobody's going to ever figure out a percentage, but you know, it kind of gives us a way to roughly have like because like you you see when it's like we're not going to be doing the math and the measurement unless it's like, you know, nobody's going to get to it unless it's at 35% or more probably before then. I mean, I guess the there's then the concern. I'm just trying to play both sides in my own mind. If one business felt like, oh, you're picking on me because I have 35%. Could there be issues where that they're like out there trying to be like, "Well, look, they've got 22%. I just did the math." Like, I don't know. I'm just like, you know, stuff gets Thank you for bringing that to our attention. But yeah. Okay. Yeah. Um, let's make this easy readable and

easy enforceable. Yeah. I mean, I'm very pro that obviously. What do you think would be the easiest to enforce, Sarah, on this one? I feel I feel like I'm making a decision for a different staff member, but I I think just I think if everything does consolidate down to percentages, um then that will be easier to enforce than counting signs and measuring square footage for the because this is you know if it's thousand street foot of street frontage, you get sign you get two. So percentage will probably be easier, I think. Um, and we could potentially do some like mockups that visually show the percentages so that that could either go in the ordinance itself or it could go in some accompanyment online so that there's not only does staff kind of have a visual but the um property owners have a visual as well. I I'm just curious, this may be apparent to other people, but how is someone going to know necessarily how much the size of their structure? So, you actually want to base it on either the like the you don't want to base it on the square foot of the structure. You want to base it on the linear footage because that's easier. You can just grab a tape measure and measure that. Okay. I think that will be easier.

I realize if you have a taller building 20% looks different, but um I mean should it be a little bit though based on linear and stories then like as a rough estimate of do you know what I mean? cuz like proportions and stuff because like it could be percentage per story. You know what I mean? Because like the parking garage obviously is very different, right, than than everything in town. You could say percentage per story. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because that does feel like if you're a two-story building, if you're A1 Antiques, you can have more because you have more space and like that doesn't contribute to the clutter as much as like if Tyler's two two or three businesses in a Exactly. Yeah. As opposed to Yeah. Well, in a complex, we don't want any temporary signs, do we? I mean, I guess McDonald's does have temporary signs, don't they? Yes, they do. Are we talking about all signs or just We're talking about tempor. We're talking about temporary right now, right? No, we're kind of talking about I think all like all signs and then you can use it for temporary or not, but we are going to give you an additional amount for temporary in case you Right. So it's it's and I when I sent this I had just reorganized it because that conversation had happened but it really hadn't resolved. So you know we can look at something different next time that it theoretically will be shorter. Okay potentially let's go ahead and come up to some idea here or or should we just work on it and come back next time with it? I I want to kind of get this done but do we have do we want to come back or can we come up with

something right now? If if you could come up with the percentages, I'll have to rework. I think I have to rework. Let me make sure I understand. So that might what I bring back to you. So what I'll be bringing back is sort of a list of the types of signs that are allowed real estate signs in its own piece and then also eliminating a lot of these contentbased pieces and instead talking about the number of the square footage of permanent signs, the square footage of temporary signs and the square bare footage of signs I guess temp permanent signs. that are attached and detached and temporary signs that are attached and detached would be that sounds great. That's what I'm hearing. That's what we we're concluding right now. It sounds great. Um, we were also going to talk to everybody about the holiday and seasonal decorations and if we were going to have them in that 60-day temporary thing or we were going to allow that to be a year round situ. I know we talked about it as being a any thing goes, but did you want that to be considered as a seasonal 60-day thing or you know it's one of those things again um it's like having Halloween like do we want the skeleton up all year round and just put a different hat on them or what do we want to do? That is your 20% going towards skeleton. Okay, then there you have it. The skeleton the skeleton would go through the 20%. I like that. Okay, there you go. Um, the sandwich the sandwich type A-frame is a separate thing where they have actual conditions on that one. I guess uh not to see exceeds certain height and all kinds of little things like that, but I think we're good on that. If you want to

go to page 14, um, some towns say we should have it weighted down when they put it up so it doesn't blow over and hit somebody and blah blah blah. So on page 14, you're talking about the that um I think the real estate signs, we've got that figured out. Anybody have anything different on the age frame or are they okay with that? Looks like probably nobody's going to change that. Um, then we've got the real estate. I do think it's a good idea maybe about the weighted down part because especially with the big winds we can get here sometimes about being properly secured. Properly secured. Okay. So, can we put some language in about being properly secured with weights? So, you know, and also the other thing that people were saying is that they should go inside at night. So, it should only be out on the sidewalk when the business is open. And I guess it should have light on it. And it also should be light if it's only Well, unless you have an unless you have a business that's open, you know, block or 10 o'clock at night. How are they going to run electricity to it? If it's an if it's a sandwich sign on the thing and they don't have outside outlets, they're not going to be able to get lighting to it. No. So, um, lit up things. No. Well, so the question is, do you only have it during the I mean, for safety sake, do you only have it on a sidewalk during the daytime when there's light, people can see, pedestrians can see it? Um, I mean, what does everybody think about that? And should they take it in at night when they're closed or because if it's on a sidewalk, does that become the town's

propert? But theoretically, you know, it's going to probably encroach on the sidewalk, which would then make it a town liability, right? I'm not sure. So, we're going to have a lot more in the future. We do we there are A-frames that encroach on the sidewalk. Um, and that's an issue that I believe we're dealing with, but Oh, you already are dealing with that, too. Well, um, it's almost I mean, right, I know there are a couple, but so I mean, do we have any businesses that have enough property so that the A-frame would not encroach on the sidewalk? because I'm always thinking most sidewalks go right up to most businesses. Um because you could put them in your parking lot, right? That captain's quarters over here. Yeah. No sidewalks. So, yeah. Well, so if they put it into the roadway, I guess that's in the driveway. That's not allowed. That's all right. So, what else do you want to put in about that then as far as uh safeties? The sign must be properly secured and waited or waited and brought indoors when the business is closed in high wind events. That should probably be two sentences. Yeah, I was going to say that probably needs to be broken. I think that adds a little bit of more security there. See? Yeah, that's good. Um, open house. That looks good. Um, actually, I think [Music] Uh, if I might. Yes. A question about um openhouse signs. A one sign may be placed on each street frontage and an

additional three off premise signs. Is that like um if it's a new development or something? I'm trying to think where there would be an off- premise sign. Like if you're coming if I you're trying to direct somebody into the neighborhood and saying like open house this way, right? Let me let me use Richard Station. They put one right on 260. Then you go up the hill and there's one in the circle. Yep. Then you go like and it's pointing you wherever in the neighborhood because when you get to the circle, you have options. And then it gets closer to the street that it's on. And then you have one in the yard. Well, but like I for an HOA, I guess that would be ruled by the HOA or maybe that's just kind of informal practice. But if you're not in an HOA, are people just putting them on where would they actually put them that isn't like somebody else's private property? I mean, I can imagine like back in my neighborhood that you might put it along like the beach elementary like somewhere that's on the public property by the road by the roadway that would be pointing you into my neighborhood and then you might not be able to get foreign but that would so they're so basically it's kind of trespass by sign on a public property where they don't belong anyway or private property I know that when my neighbors are selling their house the signs are in the space between like the space that is uh right of Okay. It's not technically my property. There's people always put real estate signs there. So, first what 10 feet in is right away. Not in my yard, but yes. Um, okay. So, it's 7:30. I just want a few more. Um, I think temporary signs we've kind of got a feel for now. Do we think we can put something together? I'm

going to do another sort of reorganization. I I think that's probably like not sorry that's I'm like I realized that when I sat down and and reorganized this here but I think the structure of temporary general allowed not allowed and then we're going to make it even more condensed with percentages and lists. And then um we um then I was going to just show you that Annapolis when they do their um pro prohibited signs they have as I say just just a list of words is all they're having for prohibited signs. You know animated is one, billboards is another. So we could if we could get down to that for um prohibited I think that would be kind of cool. And then we have another town that has I think St. Michaels who does um um exempt signs the same kind of way. Maybe if you know maybe a sentence or two. But so the more consolidated we can get with some of this and um then I I wrote down some different layouts that we could have. We don't have time to do that because I want to get to our hen house our our hens in the hen house situation here. But um we do have different layouts that we can look at when we come back and figure that out. Yes, I'm going to give you a different layout than what you have. I won't even go through what we have then because it's going to be completely different anyway. So fix that. The electronic messaging center is probably going to stay how it is if you want to do that complicated sign. Yeah. Which is interesting because you know some of the none of these towns have the nice little EMC section in them that like we have. So that's we're up to date, which is yay. Cool. Okay. We're also not finished. No, we're not at all finished. So if anybody has any more uh concerns about temporary signage, let's

let Miss Franklin know now um before she starts typing away. And otherwise, I'm going to conclude temporary signs. And I want to move on to the household hens. And I think we have a committee that's been working on this. So Okay. How about how about this uh email from Yeah. Mr. Peter who wants to paint a mural on the outside wall of an empty U. She already addressed that. I because I was thinking about that and looked back that should not fall under signs by our definition. I agree like art is not signs perform an important function that they communicate, identify, promote business, properties, businesses, services, residences, events or other matters of public interest. That's not what a mural does. A mural murals on the outside of the parking lot over there. It depends if a mural has a symbol of the business. You know, he says of crabs. Well, if he's selling crabs, crabs, but if he's selling, it's a it's a resial. It's right next door to me. Well, he's it's a it's this big black What is it? It's a big exposed wall and he wants to I believe he said he wanted to decorate it not I see open not open a crab place you'd have to move you are in a business area you could how [Laughter] um I think it could be considered a sign if it was like you know we had one you know where there's is the guy paints whales and they had a whale mural. I mean, that's obviously what he did. But I'm not sure that this would be that he sell crabs. He sells crabs or, you know, whatever. I don't know. But it sounds

like something that, you know, Miss Franklin would have to deal with and her Well, isn't the question that are you allowed to decorate your house? And yeah, piece of art. Unless Unless you're violating the HOA rules, right? Um, I would think you could Yeah, I think here you could paint it all up. Yeah, put unicards. I don't want to like definitively say without checking all parts of the code, but a sign has to have numbers, letters, words, models, banners, emblems, insignias, trademarks. Trademark. Trademark. A trademark can be a symbol. Right. Right. But only the part of the mural that has the words on it is going to be considered the sign under the up 20%. Well, the mural could probably cover the Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The mural can be 100%. This is not an official decision on the part of the zoning administrator for make it. Yes, we're not going to go over that and make it public policy right now. I mean, they just did a mural down in North Beach. Have you seen it? It's beautiful. Oh, it is. They can be beautiful. Absolutely. Right on the road. It's like next to your metropolitan appliance where the new the arcade is supposed to go in. Right. Right. Okay. So, we have a report from our household hands committee. Subcommittee. Subcommittee. I said that phrase to my father. He almost died. household had somehow man. Yeah. Um okay. So Chris and I met with and had Sarah was with us so that we could talk about uh like possible regulations to

present to you. this is sort of where we have landed on this and then we can discuss like which parts of it you think yes or no and then ideally we would come up with what then we would want the ordinance to look like that it would get drafted and then we could vote on it at that point. Is that correct in my understanding? So, um, the big pieces of it are that we would want to limit the number of hens to four hens per single dwelling um on a lot or a combination of lots due to the number of HOAs and lot coverage limitations for small lots. We we would be in favor of not limiting it based on lot size if they can put in a chicken coupe and run that fits within um what's the word that I'm looking for? I need the setback requirements. So we would do like an eight foot setback requirement if the lot was small, but you could go in 8 feet and 8 feet to get the coupe size that you need because your lot is set up in such a way that we would allow that without restricting it since since there are so many non-conforming lots. I mean there aren't going to be that many lots that that would be So they would be allowed to put the coupe in the front of the house. Not in the front of the house. Um it would be si our recommendations would be side or backyard but not in front yards. Um which so that wasn't specifically in the first page but the second one that I handed out today has more so no minimum no minimum lot size um but there would be an 8-oot setback allowed in rear or side yards only not front yards. Um, coupe requirements that they be fully

enclosed and predator proof. Coupe would be ventilated dry well uh regularly cleaned. Hens may not roam free. Waste management um composted on site or disposed of as yard waste. Um that there would also be additional planting requirements within the critical land area. I did want to kind of note because I feel like people get worried about chicken waste and I think it's really an important thing to be aware like four hens produced about the same waste as one dog and so we're not like regulating what people do with their dog waste unless there is a problem and I feel like that feels like um more in line with it to say like if if nobody is complaining we're trusting people because that they are doing that and then it can be regulated because people do use chicken fertilizer that has like benefits in a way that dog waste certainly does not. Um uh there would be a simple registration fee. I mean I would no inspection unless complaint is filed would be one way to go. You could say that like that. I mean, again, I'm trying to make it as easy on the town as possible for it to happen and like not adding additional burdens to them because even uh because them having to go out and inspect it beforehand, whatever our fee is, again, it doesn't feel like it's necessarily going to cover that unless an neighbor is complaining. Uh and then we would have enforcement over violations. But if if you're saying that then and I understand that and I respect it, but at the same time like owners must provide fresh water, clean feed, and monitor health. How are you going to enforce that? I would not have included that. That was in response to one of Cindy's questions. I don't feel like that's that I don't actually think that that

would necessarily be in code. I don't know what your thoughts are, Sara. So that wouldn't really be a zoning code. That would be town council adopting a piece of the code. And I think it's that you adopt that code so that if there is a problem, you can enforce it. Like if there's a complaint and there's no code that says that you can't leave your chickens star and your neighbors watching you leave your chickens starve, you want to have some some code to follow through with it. Well, one thing I would suggest on here out of consideration, I think their neighbors should be informed on either side of them that they will be installing a chicken coupe. Informed. Yeah. But they have no say. So they can't object or you'd probably never get a minute. I mean, yeah, because if if they had to get them to sign off on them, there's, you know, a good bit that they probably wouldn't sign off, but just out of courtesy, say, "Hey, just want to let you know I'm installing a chicken coupe and I'll have four chickens." Again, I guess that So then if they don't inform neighbors, but they've gotten a permit, then what? So, you're saying they do have to get a permit? This would that in that they there would be a registration fee that they've come and they've registered and they would be building something on their lot or a chicken coupe means you are using up some of your uh imperous surface area. So, if you are putting a structure, you're going to have to have permits a permit for that. Um, but I but it just seems to me like would you no longer be permitted or would your registration be revoked because a neighbor says they didn't

inform me? That feels that feels to me like a courteous step but not necessarily like an easily I guess I could liken it to if if someone's getting a dog you don't inform your neighbor even though it might you know it's going to affect your neighbor. Yeah. see that helping. I I see that as a possible difficulty or everybody's gonna say no. So, you have to have a fence. You don't Well, typically you don't you the chicken run is in the chickens are in a fenced area and typically but the foxes aren't but the I mean and and the neighbors are there. You have have a I mean they you have the coupe but also have the fence in yard that would give you double protection I guess. I mean most people's fences are not predator proof um because it's such like a different say I just well because you had mentioned it in relationship to foxes. Um oh the um run would have to be totally enclosed as well. When you say enclosed, are you talking about totally enclosed? Aside than a roof, a coupe is totally enclosed. A run is covered because that helps prevent spread. It's covered, but it's open. And if you don't cover the run, boxes and other things will get or codies will get in there or or even hawks will get in there. Um, so it has to be covered. It has to be covered all together. Um there were other things that people were saying in other cities they put in that they're not allowed to slaughter chickens because some people will have forest slaughter them at their house and then get more for you know so no slaughtering

allowed in the town. Um, you got to have all of your food proof, um, pest proofed so that you don't have just feed sitting in open bags so that other animals are attracted and, you know, vermits come by. And then the one tent was suggesting that you have movable coups so that you keep um, moving around where it is so that you can clean underneath, you don't uh, you know, the uh, the waste doesn't uh, encourage any uh, bacteria growth. that lots of times people want to do that, but also due to limited lot sizes, you're not going to have necessarily and it is harder to make those structures as predator proof when you're trying to because a lot of times you're trying to put like chicken wire under into the ground so that things can't go underneath. So, I feel like uh that's a that would be a pretty hard thing to regulate commercial. So we were saying that it would not be allowed in the Allen commercial center. Um the there would be a question like some of these areas kind of like where Jan lives, right? We were trying to identify the areas where there is mixed commercial residential and how we feel about that if that wants to be off the table that residential people living in a residential commercial area cannot have them. Um, but strictly commercial properties would not. What is the odor component of all of this? I do chicken coops smell do they? Yes. If you don't clean them, they can. That's why that's a problem. I think I think I think the the big smells of what everyone's thinking is these mass mass farms for chickens and also there's not going to be these massive number of people. It's a pretty big endeavor to build a coupe to put it in

your yard. So, this is this is more the accessibility to the people of the town to be able to have this option. Right. I just wondered I mean I know they those 30,000 foot buildings Yeah. Yeah. are terrible, but I didn't know if you had four chickens if that was an issue because I don't know doodly squat about chickens. I think there is a smell people should be taking care of that and it is the kind of thing that you could you know because it it would say that they need to be maintained and if a neighbor complained then that's the kind of thing that would violate that would you know people when you're registering your neighbors permission. Yeah. [Music] I mean, again, we're going back to you can get a dog without asking your neighbors permission. You if it's it's Yeah, bunnies, but there's other things. Bring another child for sure. A child, right? But it is a thing that barks and has smelly excrement and can be not taken care of. So, so you don't care what the neighbors No. Loved it. I loved the delivery. Yeah. So, okay. So, when you say an eight 8 foot sideyard setback, is that from the property line? Property. It needs to be back from 8 feet from all property lines because my property line literally goes up to a foot to my neighbor's house, which is odd, but there are a lot of lots like that in in Chr Beach, and mine is one of them. So, literally, uh, I could put my chickens right underneath my neighbor's window or, you know, I mean, you know, pretty close. But I think we might have to come

up with some other idea of how how far away from the closest window or building or instead of a setback because of our crazy lots here. You know, they're just crazy here. Um, I was going to say you have a non you have non-conforming setbacks. So what you would do here is just say that chicken coupoops cannot they have to conform with setbacks regardless of where they are. There's no exceptions for that. He's saying I think because her prop because her neighbor's house is right on the property line, the coupe in proper setback in her yard would only be 9 ft from her neighbor's house. Also my all the houses on my street are b are basically up to the next person's house. It's very strange. Oh, right. Right. You're we're up uh you know. So the campground is kind of weird and you know. So is there a something that then says has to be 8 foot setback and a minimum of 15 feet from the nearest from a neighbor from anybody else's residence other than your own. Yeah. At least. Yeah. If they're in a townhouse, they wouldn't be able to do it, right? No. HOA wouldn't allow unless it's not cover that. I mean, this we were discussing. We're trying to make it as possible as we could given the fact that like it's already going to be I mean, what percentage of the town lives in HOAs already like and so they're already all getting knocked out of it. So, who are we then? How much can we make accessible beyond that a concept of how many households would potentially be appropriate for it? No. Yeah, we we didn't actually calculated it. We just sort of roughly

we roughly eyeballed the rough and what was the rough eyeball result? It was more kind of a percentage. Yeah. So really, it would allow most of your nonHOA lots to do something, but there are some non-HOA lots and thinking about B Street, right, where you're you're not going to be able to andrect, you're not going to want to give up your lot coverage probably. Yeah. You'd have to like take out your sun room to put in. that we're talking about a limit. Pretty self-limiting. You also have to indicate it has to be a heated coupe. It's going to be outside. It's got to be heated. Yeah. Well, chickens really, you know, they don't do well in when it, you know, it's 30°. You have to if they're in a house. If they have a chicken coupe in a house, if if the coupe is Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. We don't require heated dogouses, do we? No, but birds. Right. That's true. No, that's true. Dogs have No, chickens meant for it. Yeah, chickens can survive. Yeah, you don't have to heat chicken coops. Okay. Well, I mean, I'm I'm good with it myself. I mean, I don't know if anybody What does everybody think here? Let's start Let's start going down uh the end here. Commissioner Han, what are your thoughts about this? And if you wanted to add any conditions, what would your conditions be beyond what they already have? I am okay with it. The enforcement I would like changed. I I mean, first time warning, I'm okay with that. The second time a correction order, no. If we've already given you a warning, the second time I want a $100 fine. Third time, let's hit them with 500.

Oh, there goes the egg savings. Yeah. I mean, you're not saving any thing on eggs. You're not. It's going to cost expensive choosing that they like want this as a pet, as a thing. It's not like Well, or the organic things like that. But at the same time, like if you have to keep coming out. Yeah. No, I think that's a totally I mean because Yep. I mean, you hope that people that go through this, you know, going to be diligent. Yeah. And if there are people that aren't, then they probably haven't come to register it, which is already Do you know what I mean? Like if they become a parent who's good. Yeah. Is there money involved with your registration or is that is that I said simple registration required fee to EBD like if you want to say to come into the town and that they're going to be bothered by it at all you got to pay $25 or something just to register your chickens we can. We don't have to. What about the existing places? I if you go on next door yeah there are multiple but you know that and I know on my street there's one. Do they need to come in and register? Have chickens? Yeah. Oh, hell yes. I mean, but well, they ain't legal now. So, I know that, but I'm saying if they want to if they want to be legal and not get hit with these violations, then yes, I think it all really comes down to, and I hate to say it, is where's our code enforcement in the town? Because they should already flagged them and they already should have done something about that. I mean, it depends. This is typically an animal control issue. It's not usually a town, you know, for animals county. For animals, it's not usually a town issue, but in this situation, we're going to make it a town issue. Well, it's als it's also a zoning violation because they didn't apply for a permit to build a chicken

coupe. Right. Right. Well, you know, but if it's in if it's in the backyard and it can't be seen and it can't be heard, you know, it it's not really that the code enforcement officer can be walking on people's property to go see what's going on everywhere. So, sometimes Yes. I'm not saying you don't need a a chicken license. I'm just saying that it these chickens that exist, it's entirely possible that I either the code enforcement officer doesn't know or the code enforcement officer might sort of know but not be able to visually enforce it without entering private property. So I don't know the answer to that. So uh Commissioner Han, you're good with it except that you want stricter enforcement regulations. Okay, Mr. Commissioner Smith, what are your thoughts? Um, I'm also for it. Um, I think that I like the way that this is written because it's open for interpretation for um when it does get sent up to town to to the council and if it if it opens up to the community, we can hear what any sort of correction that I think we've laid out the just baseline model of it being available to the most amount of people right now. And if any sort of corrections can be made, that's that's fantastic. But I think this is a this is a it's a good start and uh definitely for it. Do you think we need to add any more? No more no more conditions then. You don't want to add um I mean I think you've got pretty much you know must be fully enclosed predator proof. You know I think you've got a lot of the conditions right there. Um, I I do like the enforcement if if if you know this is something that we're going to be offering. Like that's that's definitely something that we could talk about if you wanted to increase it or if you wanted to make it, you know. Okay. So, enforcement regulations.

Okay. Commissioner Gman, what are your thoughts about this? I generally like it. I think it's a great thing for people to do. Just curious. So the eight foot the setback was that what you found in other areas is that considered like the appropriate is that the minimum? Uh it changes drastically. Uh like in some cities and towns they have 5 foot and then other places like Rockville I think it's a 20 or 25 foot. Those are places that h tend to have much larger lot sizes. So you have the option. Um, so we were trying to go with something that felt like it actually would allow for some lots to do it, but like what could be uh, you know, if you're if you're 8 feet off from a house. But I do the point that uh, Cindy made, we could have the regulation around how far it has to be from another building. That would be um you know it's sort of one of those things like not in my backyard like you know the concept sounds great but I wouldn't want just like I wouldn't want to smell I was at the humane society today like if I lived right up to that and I might not want to smell certain smells and that would be I'm also very sensitive to smells myself. So that would be my issue is that kind of the that the odor and I don't know what the odor would be like but I just want to make sure that you you could satisfy someone who wants chickens and someone who doesn't want the smell from the chickens. Yeah. Uh Commissioner Rek, what are your thoughts? Oh, as I'm looking under animal health, did we decide that

um providing fresh water and clean feed is something that we want to get into or should it just be assumed? I feel like it's assumed because it's I mean we're not making any sort of other case for any other animal that is you know that's well and that's also outside of the purview of planning and zoning. So that would come off of ours but maybe goes into our recommendation to the to an ordinance that's being passed by town council. Correct. Yeah. I think what I would do is draft an ordinance but also draft a memo to town council to to address here are the topics that were of concern that are outside of the zoning regulations for you to consider. I think you wouldn't want to send just the ordinance to them. Gotcha. What happens if an HOA decides that, you know what, we want chickens and now all of a sudden you have mixed. You have single family and you have the town houses. This is silent on that to a certain extent. Well, I don't know how most townhouse lots would allow for it based on their imperous coverage requirements and setbacks in their backyard. And if we are then also having a requirement between how far your coupe could be from another house, I feel like those town houses still wouldn't they wouldn't be able to meet those requirements. Single families might. Yeah, the single families could. And like actually in lots of the HOAs, their yards, they have bigger lots and kind of make more sense for them than others, but the town

houses wouldn't really ever be. I I don't think physically I could see a situation where Well, a a lot of the town houses already have fenced in backyards, so This is why I'm just thinking they could ease I mean their their yard of butts to the next door neighbors but they're already fenced in. So, I mean, I'm I feel like they do have that, but how much of their they tend to have they have smaller yards and they're already in a special like they can cover more of their lot size anyway. Like they frequently can't get decks and things cuz it's covering their impervious. So, I feel like between any number of factors, I can't imagine the yard that would be able to still be potentially 15 ft from another house if that's what we add to the code. 8 ft from all property lines and you have enough space in your yard for this, right? And that's like an additional requirement that the HOA can set forth, right? Like that's that's something that change your CCNRs, too. Exactly. So I mean that's changes to CNR limitations that we don't have to worry about that and I I know of things but what about yourself? I think uh neighbors have to I think yeah one consideration what if my neighbor grants approval and then they move and now I already have a lot but you've already got the coupe there somebody moving in knows the coupe is there

I mean when when you're first first putting it in under the neighbor's bedroom window. Um, yeah. I mean, put a put a size limitation. You have 8 ft. Is that 8 ft to the neighbor's house, too? So, well, we were saying we would add it has to be a certain amount from another house, but it could be it would probably be up to 15 ft away. I would I would think if if it's within 15 ft, but there is a a distance that where you wouldn't care. All right. So, you're So, you're saying now if it's 15 feet, you would not have to get approval. No, I said 15 feet you would. I'm I haven't come up with a a number. Oh, okay. But I would me I guess uh I would I would 100t has half the properties in but there's uh the one fellow here that's in a note says he's he's on an acre of land. So he's got he's got who are definitely able to have chickens and we definitely should create something if nothing else for those guys. Um, but I I was just trying to figure out my own property. Now, I don't know that. I mean, your neighbor may be within 15t of you and may say fine, but you need the neighbor's permission. I don't know that you need the neighbor's permission because I don't think a neighbor should be able to stop you from what doing what you want to do on your own property. I think out of courtesy and consideration, you just let them know, listen, I'm putting I'm getting four hens. You can move and I'm

putting in the backyard. Here's my real card. Let's I mean, we disagree. Neighbor needs needs to grant permission. But like they said, you don't get permission when you're getting a dog, and a dog is a lot noisier than four hens. Dog isn't out all night. Yeah, that's chickens make a lot less noise than a dog. A chicken while laying an eggs decel is at about 90, which is normal conversational level. And that is while they're laying eggs. So, it isn't the same sound. So, what do you do for the noise ordinance between 1000 p.m. at night and what is it? Well, I'm saying it's conversational, though. Chickens do sleep. They do sleep, actually. And you don't uh but like its decibel level from the research I was saying is tends to be at around 90 while laying eggs. So you would be able to hear them like you'd hear your neighbors. Um but it's not I mean it's not as loud as a dog barking and it doesn't happen at night typically unless they're getting eaten. But he followed the rules. Unless the fox gets that fox outside my window definitely is not following boys ordinances this spring. Well, it's that and depending on what type of dog you have. Yeah, it's a hunting dog, bird dog, and it's a neighbor, that dog will probably be very aggressive to get those chickens. So, if we came up with a setback in placement that really made a little more sense um to at least my street, um I could see my neighbor across the street getting them and putting them right up against her neighbor's, you know, house, actually

his house. Um, I'm just saying I I mean, you know, I we have to be cognizant of the fact that sideyards could be a challenge because that's where we have all the ability to make our neighbors very unhappy. Um, because we have no fencing on the sideyards a lot of times. Um there could be smells, you know, there is an ammonia smell where you've got a a concentration of of their um their chicken poop, you might say. Um so if we were going to change the let's just say we just made it could we just make it backyard? Unless you don't have a neighbor on your side. I mean maybe we could make it real specific. If there's nobody on the side, you can have it on your sideyard, but then who would care if you, you know, who would even complain? I mean, it seems to me if it's a certain number of feet from the other house, does it matter if it's side or back? No. Yeah. I think if there's a set if there's a setback from the property line and then there's also a setback from the dwelling the actual the actual home itself like you're like you're talking about if you want to make that further back it's perfectly understandable and that might prevent you from having it in the sideyard then yeah right depending on what your lot configuration because so many of the yard I feel like there are lots of people in the beach houses where like they bought the lot next to them because we barely have front and back yards And so like you might want to use that because that would have been like a lot. Would we would we like to direct our wonderful hired planner to come up with a ordinance for us to being that you do raise chickens, you

would probably be good at this, right? So I can prepare an the or like an ordinance and a memo based on all this great information and the conversation that I've been taking notes on and provide that for next time. And I think why don't you come up with the idea of how much of a setback if you think it, you know, considering we've got those weird lots up there. you have an idea of how far away? I mean, I I I honestly think what we've discussed tonight is probably good, but I will look into it a little bit more. Yeah. And uh is that okay with the majority of us that we go ahead and and direct her to do that? Is that okay with the majority? I know that we have a couple nos here, but I didn't say no. I'm on the fence. No, but if we look at her ordinance and it looks really, you know, look at the ordinance that says you have to inform the neighbors and you know informing now now if if informing the neighbors is enough to drop this idea. You're saying the neighbors don't want it. You're saying the neighbors wouldn't accept it. And I I don't think that's true. I think some neighbors would say fine. If you can give me the eggs, I will take the chicken. Yeah, of course. You know, they might get some eggs out of the deal. I think though philosophically to me, it has to do with if we are saying that this is a thing that you are allowed to do on your property, my neighbor and my relationship with that person, which may or may not have anything to do with chickens, should not Yeah. It should not be a deterrent to whether or not I can do something. If we think that is legally allowed to happen on a yard, then the whims of somebody else should not be a factor in that. So that from a philosophical point of view, that's where I stand on it. It's like you're

really you're trying to balance really two competing interests and it's not easy because I understand what Mr. Brown is saying. Yeah. And at the same because I don't know how I would feel about it until it actually happened, let's say. you know, I wouldn't know what you know, they the negotiate where it goes on the on the yard. You could uh you know, have have some agreement, but you don't want them talking to the neighbor. No, I just don't think that the neighbor should get to determine what they do on their yard. If if it is something that we say people should legally be allowed to do this, I I think that that is then my property to determine where I want that. I got it. I I hear you. No, I So just where I'm coming from in our HOA, if we're having something done, we have a form we have to take to each neighbor. They have to sign off that they're aware of it and we have to submit it to the art committee before we can get approval to do it. What committee? The architectural committee. Okay. Okay. So would it be then like a requirement when you get the permit to say I have that you would just sign off to say I have informed my neighbors as a part of like getting the registering their chicken. We're not saying here that we're just saying you have to inform the neighbors. We're not saying you have to put it in writing or anything else like that. But if something comes up in the future, you can say, "Look, I informed my neighbor out of common courtesy that I was doing this." Because if you're building a coupe, then that means you're going to have people bowling in your backyard building a coupe and things like that, right? And it's got to be permanent. So, for me, it's just common courtesy. I would think it it would need to be signed or something because uh two weeks later, they changed their mind and you It doesn't matter. They don't have They haven't got an agreement. They don't. It doesn't matter because they don't have a

right to tell. They don't have a right to tell you what you can do in your own yard. Mine is a courtesy of saying, "Hey, I'm putting a chicken coupe in my backyard. I just wanted to let you know you're going to be seeing people coming in while it's being built. We spend we spend years here telling people what they can do in their yard. That's that's what we do." He's not lost on me. Saying that my neighbors I should not have any right to say my neighbors. Oh, you're putting that there and I don't want it there. So, you can't do it. But you just said in the HOA you have to get your neighbors approval. You don't not everyone lives in HOA though. They're you're you're taking a form to your neighbor telling them that you're doing this basically and you're informing them that you're doing it. not getting necessarily their approval that you're doing it, but you're informing them that you're having doesn't want it. What happened? Yeah. Should there be an objection period or just like a you just I mean for me traveling for work, I know that if my neighbor wanted to do something and they've come to my house twice and I'm traveling, they would probably just put on there try this date and this date and resident service. And then my neighbor is a renter. So, do I have to go to the owner who's out of the area or how do we do that? So, there's that. Well, the I think what we're talking about is that if you go to your neighbor, you are raising an issue that has the potential of being divisive. I mean, I grew up Bethesda. I, you know, I wouldn't, that's why I asked the question about chickens and if they smell, I mean, I have no idea. So, you go to your next door neighbor, you say, "Hey, I'm doing this. If somebody came to my house, that would just create a a bunch of questions in my mind that it might be nice to do, but now you've told them you're going to

do something and they don't know what the impact is or isn't. That's right. You don't know the impact. Also, I would you keep saying the word common courtesy and I just don't think we can legislate common courtesy. like that is a courtesy and we should do it like potentially. But to me, yeah, that's what that's my only hesitation. Like I don't I don't mind that being included, but it just feels like not easily enforcable. And so I don't tend to like to add stipulations that don't feel like an easily enforcable thing with a plan. I mean, un unless you have to notify them and they sign that you've been notified and that's attached to the permit. Yeah, that could be a condition of agreement. Yeah, we can do that. It says owners must provide fresh water and clean theme. Yeah. I mean I mean that was I yeah I don't necessarily think that that and again because that wouldn't go into the permitting from us but that would go into the memo from town so that the town could do that if there was issues with the chicken that there would be something to if somebody complained that you would have ability to say they aren't giving that chicken water feed it's not cleaned. I know this might be a little unusual, but I mean I would imagine that there are like training videos or something where you could see for those of us that maybe don't know if there's anything out there that would show Jan would show me this is what it would look like on this size lot and maybe there could I don't know if there's anything where you know neighbors talk about the impact or that it was you know the experience that might well the big problem is you don't know how somebody's going to take care of the animals. And it's really about keeping that pen clean, keeping that clean. That's the same thing as bacteria. I mean, it builds up the biggest problem right there. And not every owner notices it

the way a neighbor would, especially with the way would blow, whatever. Um, and I would get used to it as an owner, whereas my next door neighbor wouldn't be used to that, you know, that hen smell. Um, but I think if we let um Sarah come back with something, she might put enough stuff in here that it might be more palatable um to like a chicken. And also, it is like this is something we're kind of kicking down the road to say here's a thing and town council. And it would be interesting to see like if if people are coming out left, right, and center and saying we don't want this. We don't want this because there will be a public hearing. I think like we can present a thing that we're like this seems in line with what we're hearing. If you've seen the Facebook post about it, there is a lot of support for this that people are talking about it. Um, and there has been a desire for it. But if you see the opposite when a hearing, then we say this isn't what the town wants. So referendum or something or nearly ballot. How do we enforce it? If they don't pick up the eggs and eat the eggs and they let the chicks chick and then they have more then they have more than four and you enforce it. Well, you need a rooster. You need a rooster. Oh yeah. [Music] Thank you for that. We'll have a video of not slaughtering no I hear you. I love dogs. I don't know how I would then you work it out. or not or not. Yeah. So, I think a lot of the concerns about

smells and caretaking, those are issues you have with anything in the neighborhood. You know, you have people who let their trash pile up and don't maintain their house and this becomes a code issue. And I think the people who are going through this process and getting this permitting aren't the people who you're not going to be able to get a permit if you have code violations. That could be in there too. Like if you have existing code violations, you cannot get a permit to keep as part of the permitting. Is it possible that they have to put a plat where they're going to put it on their plat? That's part of the zoning process. So because you'd have to be building something. So you Yeah. Well, I'm just thinking depending on Well, the interesting thing is you don't need to have one for a dog house if you're going to put a dog house in or a dog area, right? But dogs are so common. Yeah. And we're really talking about people like Larry perhaps or people like me that I don't know what to expect. That's the That's the bottom line. It's the unknown. Are they gonna That's what I was thinking a video could help, you know, because I don't I know nothing, right? Yeah. I wonder if there's like some It's probably something on YouTube we could watch, you know, at least give us an idea as to what to expect. We could take a video to every house that you are announcing that you're going to have a chicken. You have to get the neighbors. That is education. Then it's really it's fear of the unknown, guys. That's that's the bottom line. Those of us who don't know a cotton chickens. Yeah, I've had my family's had chickens. So Sarah, do you have a enough to go on here as far as conditions or

everything going on and on, but I think you got enough. Funny thing though because you had asked you had said at some point and I was like or maybe Mary Sue we're talking like oh it'd be interesting if you had information about towns that they had passed it and then how people felt about it and obviously that is not research that we have like we don't have the resources to figure that out but I was trying to see generally how it's been received in communities and one of the things that would seem like an indicator that it is going well is people very rarely go back on these like people when they are introduced to towns it seems like it would be an indication that people were unhappy with it and you were getting lots of complaints and it was bothering lots of people if then these things in the next election cycle were repealed and you don't really see that and so I don't know if that is any if that if that brings any comfort and maybe it doesn't but do you know what I mean if they were if people were coming in most of the towns I looked up had a lot bigger clearance had a lot bigger setback than we're we're at. That might be one of the smallest setbacks I've seen for chickens. But I mean there are places but we just weren't bringing them up like Baltimore City allows them and does I was going to say you're leaving yourself wide from there. I also I mean I think Baltimore doesn't get nearly enough credits. We are going to be there is another place where we disagree that I'm like yeah I think a lot of biases against that place that got great museums. Yeah, I think DC allows them too now that I think about it. So I I think they I mean there are some small areas there lots of cities have that have yeah they did have become a lot more common and those just weren't

ones to ring up because I suspected sort of that reaction around it. So, we were using other places, but they are places that use far more um like liberal restrictions far have far more liberal restrictions. Yeah, we are going to tidy this one up and just uh just one more time. You're going to then bring back next month a little uh something for us to look at and vote on and uh additions perhaps. Uh the next thing we want to the last thing I want to do is I want to uh have some council member or some I'm not council but uh commissioner member comments. I have one commented and that is that next month we're going to be starting back on our June election of officers. So if anybody here wants to do this job please all come, you know, come and let me know um so that we can have an election next month. Um, and yeah, there's that. So, let's start down at Commissioner Han. Anything you would like to share? No, no comment. Commissioners, I'm good today. Thank you. Commissioner Graceman, what do you say? Uh, believe it or not, nothing. Nothing. Did I miss? No, I don't have a comment on anything else. Okay, Miss Weaver, no comment. Um, you did receive these emails that Sharon got. Uh, one from, uh, Miss Katto, uh, which is just read those out loud last month. Those were last ones. Yes. And she had them in the minutes, too. So, okay. All right.

Thank you for reminding us. Okay. So, um is there anything else I'm thinking about for um next month uh Sarah that we have to bring up? Oh, um so once we tidy up the chickens and get a little bit more, we'll probably want to have our I would hope our public hearing. Do you think we can do it next month or are we that far along or do we want to wait another month? Signs signs. Oh, so signs. I feel like we still need another at least another month. Yeah, because we're not there yet. Size of it changes, but I think I know we want to we want to get to coastal resiliency is where you're going. I think once we have this public hearing scheduled for the sign ordinance, then we can add coastal resiliency because Theoretically, based on the turnout of your public hearing, it will dep determine how much more time you need to spend on how much work we have to do. Since you haven't had a lot of participation to this point, it seems like it might be pretty quick with signs after the public hearing. I could be wrong. Um, and then you would be able to do backyard chickens and start to take a look. Be doing resiliency at the same time. we can start I think because it's this leads into this overlay and a lot of changes. So it's I think coastal resiliency is going to be a long process that's going to take time because there's a lot of different Yes. So maybe at the hearing it's like sort of here's all the pieces we're going to have to touch. So an overview of it so we get started but it's it's not a you know a simple set. Right. Yeah. You have a question? Oh, can I also propose I am out of town for work and

play the next two meetings. So, if we could maybe pause that would give you more time to talk about signs and that we could just pause on chickens until August. July. So, you're gone. You're gone for June and July. Are we recessing in August? No. That's what I was going to ask you next. Who's going to be here in August? Do we want to recess in August? What do we want to do in August? Last last year we did a an off August because town council was off on August. So we thought, well, what do you want to do in August? Um, I will be in town. You will be in town. Okay, then let's We've got so much work to do. Let's go ahead and do August. Anybody else out for June and July that we know of right now besides nothing right now? Okay, good. So, let's hold off then on the household hens until August. You don't need that draft until August. Yeah, we don't need that because she's going to be gone till August. And of course, we need her here. So, uh, August is when we need that. Okay. Very good. Um, I would like to have a motion to Are there any concerns or reasons to not Okay, all in favor? Okay, it's all gone. We're done here. Thank you very much for attending our meeting. Good night. Okay, so my my mom has I'll wait.