Historic District Commission - Regular Meeting

Okay, I'd like to call this meeting to order, please. And we're going to move through the administrative goodies while they're working on the technical stuff. So let's start with a roll call. Sandra Sider. Here. Laura Moore.

Here.

Josh Gerlitz. Here. Brian Daniels is not here. And Mom Don Tice here. And Glenn Conley, I think you guys know. She wanted to be here tonight, but she cannot be here. And she had to resign due to a new job position, if I'm not mistaken. So Glenn is no longer a commissioner. But we do have enough here for everyone in the audience for quorums for tonight's applicants. so this month is acknowledgement of the hispanic heritage month and i have a quick recognition of that to read before we begin we'd like to take a moment to recognize hispanic heritage month and its significance here in north carolina and in chapel hill across our state hispanic and latino communities have been central to our growth contributing to rich cultural traditions linguistic diversity and leadership across agriculture manufacturing healthcare education technology and public service. Today, one in five young children in North Carolina identify as Hispanic or Latino, underscoring the vibrancy of these communities. In Chapel Hill, the arrival of Latino American families since the 1990s has reshaped our community. UNC's Latino Migration Project documents oral histories of families who settled here, built neighborhoods, small businesses, and civic institutions, a testament to resilience. Students and faculty spearheaded creation of the Carolina Latinx Center, which opened in 2019, now a hub of cultural events, mentorship, and Heritage Month programming at UNC. As stewards of Chapel Hill's historic district, we recognize that the story of our community is interwoven with the broader story of Hispanic and Latino history in the United States. Their contributions past, present, and future continue to enrich our shared civic life, cultural vitality, and collective progress. Let us celebrate their achievements, honor their heritage, and commit ourselves to ensuring that their voices and stories remain an integral part of our town's historical record. Okay. Secretary reads procedures.

I'll now read into the record the following. The commission operates under NC General Statutes 160D-940, which gives local governments historic preservation authority, and the Chapel Hill Land Use Management Ordinance, including Article III, which established the local historic districts and sets forth regulations governing them. And the Chapel Hill Historic Districts Design Principles and Standards, which sets forth standards for changes in the historic districts, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Chapel Hill Historic District Commission, as well as the significance reports from all three historic districts and photographs. I also call to your attention each of the applications and associated materials in your agenda packet. All of these items are hereby entered into the record. Thank you.

OK, thank you very much. Now I'm going to read the Historic District Commission public charge for everyone. The advisory body pledges its respect to the public. The body asks the public to conduct themselves in a respectful, courteous manner, both with the body and with fellow members of the public. Should any member of the body or any member of the public fail to observe this charge at any time, the chair will ask the offending person to leave the meeting until that individual regains personal control. Should decorum fail to be restored, the chair will recess the meeting until a genuine commitment to this public charge is observed. Property owners may represent themselves or be represented by attorney. However, professionals such as architects, engineers, designers, and others may provide factual evidence and expert opinions so far as they are qualified but not legal arguments on behalf of the property owner. Members of the public may provide witness testimony and factual matters within their personal knowledge. However, lay opinion testimony and property value impacts, traffic safety impacts, and other matters in which expert testimony is generally required may not be considered by the commission. Comments and legal arguments by attorneys shall not be considered testimony or evidence unless the attorney is sworn in and acknowledges that he or she intends to provide testimony or evidence rather than legal argument.

All right.

Now we need the approval of the agenda. Anybody have any comments on the agenda, or is there anything we need to change? Anna Scott? OK. Can I get a motion for approving the agenda?

So moved.

A second?

Second.

All in favor, say aye. Aye.

Aye.

All opposed? The agenda has been approved. I don't think there are any announcements for this evening. Are there?

Just one. We'll have officer elections at the next meeting in October.

OK. I'm not sure you're close enough to mic. Officer elections at the next meeting?

Yes, sorry. We'll have officer elections in October at our regularly scheduled October meeting.

OK, thank you. And I already mentioned that Glenn is no longer on the board. So those are our announcements. Petitions?

There are none.

There are none. So we need the approval of the minutes. It's the August 11th minutes. I believe they set hard copies out for us to look at. Do anybody have any issues with those minutes, comments? Okay.

Don, I'll just call out that the hard copy is different than what was in the agenda packet. It follows the chronological events of, the meeting whereas the one in the packet that you received ahead of the meeting there was a technical issue and we it took a while to figure it out but the ones we'd like for you to approve the the hard copy and we'll go in and make that change on the agenda okay can someone move to approve the hard copy of the August 11th minutes so move a second second all in favor say aye aye all opposed okay they're approved

Okay, next is COAs. Anna Scott, for the administrative COAs approval and maintenance work, there's nothing that we really need to comment on this evening, is there?

No, there's no action needed. It's just an information item to keep you updated on the administrative COAs that have been issued.

Okay, very good. Thank you. All right, a consent agenda, a bunch of items. Kevin, can I list all three through six, or do we need to go one at a time for approval?

That's correct. So the consent agenda items are the written decisions from your August meeting. Those can be approved as a batch unless anyone would like to pull one of them out for further discussion.

Anybody have a discussion on items three through six?

I move we approve the consent agenda.

Okay, there's been a move. Move, second?

Josh, can you say that again into the microphone?

I move that we approve the consent agenda.

I second. There was a second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. All opposed? Okay, the consent agenda is approved. I'll have those signed for you before we leave this evening. Next is old business. 100, South Columbia. I will now open the evidentiary hearing in this case.

And while they're getting set up up there, this might be a good opportunity to do conflicts and disclosures amongst the commission.

That is what I'm getting ready to do. Hang on. I'm messing around with my computer. OK. Are there any conflicts of interest? Ex-partite communications? There are none. Everyone shook their head no for the record. OK, so we're getting the sign in. Hang on. Before you give any evidence, I'm going to read you an affirmation, and if you can follow by saying, I so affirm, and give us your name, okay? I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the Historic District Commission and the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth, I so affirm.

I so affirm. My name is Steve Harward.

Steve, thank you very much. Sure.

Are we ready?

Good. Thank you. The floor is yours.

Thank you. Here we are back in the church's memorial garden overlooking Franklin and Columbia streets to discuss our project to install a fence around the perimeter, outside perimeter of the memorial garden. In our meeting on August the 11th, it's our understanding that we really all agreed on the necessity and the need for the fencing in order to protect the integrity and the reverence that we wish to maintain for that memorial garden where we inter ashes and have memorials to deceased members of our congregation. We did leave the meeting with a few questions that you had. I've identified the general areas of questioning on the slide presentation. There were a few specific items that you questioned that we'll try to resolve this evening as well. One has to do with whether our project would restrict access to an emergency exit from our great hall on the second floor of our education building. to the steps which go from the garden to the Franklin Street sidewalk? Would our fence go in front of the intersection, the University Baptist Church signage in the corner of the rock wall that's there, which is at the intersection of Columbia and Franklin? And thirdly, whether the fence would be mounted on top of the existing stone wall or behind it. So I think we'll address all of those questions fairly briefly tonight. The fence material would be the first item that we'd like to address. The material that we would use for the fence would be an aluminum black picketed fence, as we mentioned in our last meeting. We have identified a product that we can show you pictorially or have a sample here that we can show you as well. It would be a commercial grade fence. I've shown some dimensions there which distinguish it from some of the lighter grade fencing. We feel the heavier grade would be a little more secure for our site there at the corner of Franklin and Columbia. The installation. again, would be inside of the existing rock wall. We felt that we'd put it there to get better stability of the fence. We would still try to attain a 48-inch height of the fence above the top surface of the stone wall. The gated entrances or the entrances that are on Franklin and Columbia Streets to the Memorial Garden would be gated. We'll illustrate that with the site plan and some other illustrations momentarily. And that would be about roughly 77 and 1 half feet on the Franklin Street side and about 85 feet on the Columbia Street side. Our fence would, this is a sample of our fencing. It is a Newcastle product. It would have the top spears and the picketed fencing. I think that's about a four inch spacing between the pickets. And again, that would be probably, I think that represents an eight foot panel. And we would try to attain the 48 inch height. So to have it behind the stung wall, we may require actually a five or six foot fencing in order to attain that height preference. We feel that this particular product meets your printed standards and your guidelines. It is a light gauge fencing or aluminum, which is permitted in your design principles. It is picketed, which is an acceptable option. It is compatible, we feel, in terms of the scale and design of other materials in the district and blends well, we think, with the garden and the two structures which are behind the garden, one of which is our sanctuary building, the other which is our educational building. This is just a brief schematic to illustrate the location of the fencing. Yellow structure to the top of the diagram represents our sanctuary building facing Franklin. And the other structure would be our educational building, which is on the Franklin Street side. I may have said Franklin over here, but this face is Columbia over on this side. So you'll see by this diagram that the fence does encircle the garden. It would be on the inside of the stone wall. The gated entrances would be here at the existing Columbia Street entrance to the garden, as well as the existing entrance from the Franklin Street side. This is the area that was of some concern last time, as in this area here, there are steps leading to the second floor level of our educational building to a great hall. It's used primarily as an emergency exit, but you did not wish that we block the access from that exit to the steps leading to the Franklin Street sidewalk. So we're intending to accomplish that with this project by placing the gate a little further back here in that walk so it does not obstruct that area. Similarly, this gate in this area, it's an existing entrance to the garden, and it would be gated. This stone wall here contains the University Baptist Church signage, which you felt it would be best if we did not obscure that sign with the fence. And we are going to accomplish that by extending the fence to the sides of that rock structure there so the signage would not be obscured. This is a depiction of what the fencing might look like at each of the gated entrances. I would say that this appears to be a similar fence. It is probably not the 48-inch height that you'll see here. It's very close, we think. But you'll see here how the gated entrance from Franklin Street would appear from the street level, as well as the one from Columbia Street. and how we've addressed the issue of not obstructing the stairwell, which is in this area here. I'm not sure. Are you seeing the cursor? I'm sorry. I was thinking that was appearing on your screen as well. So anyway, to the right of the Columbia Street gate, you'll see where the stairway goes up to the second floor of our educational building. And that gate would not obscure that access to the Franklin Street sidewalk. Here's a depiction of the Columbia and Franklin Street vantage points. And again, here it probably does not represent the 48-inch height. However, we feel like the 48-inch height is very consistent with the design for the rest of the space. It does not obscure the garden. and certainly does not obscure the two larger structures, being the sanctuary and the fellowship hall in this area to the right as well. And there's a representation of what the corner would look like with a little additional landscaping there that would help dress that site up a bit. The fencing, the way we have planned it, we also feel meets your design principles and standards. It clearly does not screen the view of the garden. Any screening is primarily done by the existing landscaping that's already in place. It appears to be compatible in terms of your criteria there in terms of height and material and scale of both our building as well as what we found elsewhere in the district. It seems to be consistent with the location height of other walls and fences in the district. I would add also, just backing up here, that the fencing that we're using here is a perimeter fencing. Elsewhere on the property, the property is surrounded by black chain link fencing. So we think this will be an enhancement, really, to the overall fencing on the site. Here's some examples of other fencing we found in the district. Some of these I think you've seen in our last meeting. But this just illustrates, we think, that our choice of aluminum fencing that is picketed And in the style we've chosen, it's very consistent with what we found elsewhere in the district and seems to be actually the predominant style of fencing that we've found throughout that area. This is one photograph from the Cameron Wilson Court area, another from the Ransom and Briar Bridge area. This is not in the district. This is in the Franklin Rosemary District, but it's a similar fence to what we've chosen in the vicinity of the Presbyterian Church on Franklin. And the picture of Cameron Avenue and Carolina Square is immediately behind Carolina Square on Cameron. Many of these appear to be taller than the 48-inch fencing which we've chosen. Some that we've identified even appear to be five or six feet in height. This was the outlier here, just a few hundred feet down from the church. It's just a gate with no fencing. And then more picketed fencing. I'm sorry, that does not stand out quite as well as I'd like in the fraternity court area. Again, a similar style to that we've chosen. The 312 McCauley, again. Black aluminum. This is probably at least a five foot fence. And then this is at the DKE house over at the intersection of Columbia and Cameron. And that, I believe, is a six foot fence of black aluminum. Probably not of the commercial grade that we've chosen for our project. I would ask if, at this point, if you have any questions or if we've addressed the questions from our last meeting satisfactorily.

Well, I'll start with a quick question. Sure. You said it's mounted behind the stone wall. Is it mounted into the ground?

Ground.

And so it's a longer fence or pole that then comes up. So it's not attached to the wall. OK. Anybody have any questions?

The fence, if it is, let's just say, five to six feet tall behind the wall, when it gets to the gate area, how tall is the gate from where you're standing?

The gate, I might have to ask some of our associates here. The gate would normally be contiguous with the top of the fence coming from the rock wall.

So the gate might be five or six feet tall.

The gate might be tall. Where you're standing. In order to have the appearance of going, of being level with the top of the, yes. Right, it would go. That's correct.

And then if you could go quickly to the sign picture that you had with the image of the fencing meeting the sign. How tall is the sign?

I don't know the answer to your question. We could make a guess, but I think you'd rather have it.

Well, in that image, that's beautiful. But I don't know how tall the sign is. And the fence might be five feet tall there. I just don't know.

Yeah.

But I think it should look like you have it. I just am not convinced that it will.

OK. I don't know the exact height of that wall. Wish we had known that was a concern earlier. We had that information for you tonight. OK. Thank you. I'm told that it's probably in the five to six foot range. I don't know the exact dimension of it. I know when I'm standing beside it, it's about shoulder height.

that sounds great i would just not like to see the fence jutting up above the top of the wall yeah laura makes a great point and we can talk about it after we've asked questions but it would be nice if this is approved approved with a condition that it's not taller than that stone wall because that's a pretty critical little detail and i'm going to jump in again real quick last time you said that this i mean the whole point of this is for security So the gates are gonna be lockable. And you said there was gonna be some kind of post that would lock and unlock?

It would be a controlled access. It would have some type of locking system on it. But it would be open and accessible to the public during office hours for the church.

Yeah. I was just concerned with the visual look of how it's going to lock. That's why I was asking that question, because I've seen some outdoor gates that look pretty horrible when they have a lock on them. And then they have to put a screen in one side so people can't reach through and that kind of thing. I think the gentleman that was here last time said there was going to be a remote post that you hit to open it. That's correct. Okay. I just wanted to make sure that was still in the plan. Thank you.

I have no questions.

This is much better than last time. It's just answered all my questions. Thank you.

Very good. Are there other questions? No, there are not. We certainly invite your approval of our project. We also, as we mentioned in our last meeting, would also encourage any dialogue you might wish to have with the town and Chapel Hill Transit regarding the bus station they have proposed for the front of the church property, which will contribute to the issue of the security of the memorial garden, we feel. And it also interferes significantly with all sorts of activities of the church and in no way complies with any of the historical requirements that other properties in the district are required to comply with. So we'd love to hear your voice and support on that. Other questions?

I don't think so. Are there any public comments? If there's no public comments and no more questions, we'll close this portion of the evidentiary hearing on 100 South Columbia. And let's have some discussion.

I think Laura raised a good point about that stone wall, that it be flush with the top of the fence, more or less. The entry stone. Yeah, stone side.

It's got to look like that, no matter what the bottom of the fence is. Exactly.

The mic. Laura.

It needs to look like this, rather, even if the bottom fence height varies, the top needs to be flush, in my opinion. Yeah.

Kevin, I guess I should, for record, Mr. Hornick, can we approve something with conditions?

So you could approve something with conditions that are intended to ensure compliance with your review standard, certainly.

OK, thank you very much. I appreciate that. And this comments as much for Josh, fellow architect, as much as anyone. There's nothing in the design standards that says, You can't use aluminum, and there's plenty of precedent. So I can't say it's not incongruous because you're using aluminum. But it hurts my heart that it's not going to be wrought iron, just as an architect. Wrought iron just has a different kind of tactility to it, which is really nice. But the aluminum, the way you're presenting it, it can't be turned down based on any particular article in the guidelines. I didn't know if you agree with me on the rolled iron thing or not.

I do.

OK. We got an I do there. Well, can I make a motion?

Would that hurt anybody's feelings? Take a stab at this.

I move that the applicant, 100 South Columbia Street, is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district according to the application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and the HTC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record. However, I would like to add a constraint that they make sure that the fencing that's diagonal to the corner of Columbia and Franklin The new fencing is no higher than the existing stone wall. Did that motion make sense?

It sounds good.

Can I get a second?

Do you mean the stone wall with the sign or the stone wall along the sidewalk?

OK, let me try again. With the exception that for the stone wall holding the sign facing diagonal to the street corner, that the new fencing cannot be taller than that stone wall. Is that good enough for somebody to be able to write that down? Okay. Do we have a second? Second. We have a second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. All opposed? It passes. You're building a fence. I can't see it. Hang on one second, I'm rebooting my machine.

Okay, here we go. This has presenter notes. They see on the screen, it's on that screen, so if you need to make sure they're seeing the right thing.

Is there a way, a technical question, if I need to enlarge something so they can see it better, is that possible or do they just have to?

Well, while they're talking about that, this is one we need to go ahead and talk about. I'm going to announce starting the evidentiary portion of this hearing for 21 Cobb Terrace. And the first thing we need to ask are if there are any conflicts, at which point I need to say there is a conflict for me. And I'm going to have to recuse myself because my firm, when I was still president of my firm, did the drawings for this one. So technically, that makes me need to recuse myself. So as a point of this recusal, Josh, I'm just going to give the affirmation to you.

Are we going to have a quorum?

Kevin, do we need to vote on the recusal?

We need Kevin Hornick to clarify this.

So to answer Anna Scott's question first, no, there's no need to vote on this. This is a statutory conflict of interest. It arises under 160 . We would vote on it if there was an objection or a question as to Don's, the necessity of his recusal. To answer the second question, This is technically complicated. So we have a quorum for the meeting. There is a different calculation used for voting majority thresholds for quasi-judicial evidentiary hearings. And disqualified members, so Don in this case, and vacant seats don't count for the calculation of a quorum and voting majority for those purposes. So yes, we'll be able to proceed with the evidentiary hearing this evening, despite Don's recusal. However, the applicant will need a unanimous majority.

OK.

Okay, thank you for coming before us this evening I'm going to read a Read an affirmation, and when I complete my reading of the affirmation, you say that you will or do, and give us your name. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the Historic District Commission on the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth. I so affirm.

I do affirm. My name is John Norwood. Thank you, John.

You may begin.

All right. Thank you for hearing me tonight. It's my second time before the historic district. My first time was 21 or 22 years ago when I did a very major renovation of the property that's across the street from the subject property, which is 14 Cobb Terrace. I was advised by the folks at the town that before I made my presentation to the Historic District Committee that I needed to secure some ordinance variances from the Board of Adjusters. And that has already been done. And the presentation tonight is very similar to the presentation that I made for the Board of Adjusters, specifically having to do with a variance to the setback ordinance. as well as a variance to the steep slope ordinance. Both of those were secured. The only update that I have for tonight is the designs have the elevations have been further developed in an effort to understand How how this this tiny house is going to look this for a brief background It's located at 21 Cobb Terrace that is a neighborhood that was built in early 1910s, 1920s in conjunction with the Sears, Roebuck, Aladdin houses that were brought in and set up in that area. On this property, there used to be a row of approximately eight carriage houses, each one belonging to a respective house in the neighborhood. Over time, the houses were demolished, and the properties that contained the houses, the property, the lots were about 500 square feet. they were absorbed into the adjacent properties. But I was able to secure the last remaining of the carriage houses approximately 20 years ago. And then there were four legal lots that still existed. I was able to obtain those over time. And in conjunction with the approval from OWASA, that led to being able to put a super service, which has already been installed, requirement of that was that I recombine the four lots into just one lot and as it is today and so basically the idea we'll see some pictures here but the idea is that I would take the existing carriage house relocate it to the northwestern side of the property and install it where one of the former carriage houses used to be on that footprint, and then where the carriage garage sits now, I would rebuild a two-story or a one-story with a daylight basement that looks very similar to what it looks now. So that's my introduction. Let's go through some of the slides. To get oriented, I'm going to attempt to. This one shows the existing condition of the garage on the right side on the lot, how it used to be legally done. And then these show all four of the lots that were acquired and now combined into one, just to orient you there. This, real briefly, is sort of a setback diagram to show that considering the setback from the street, from the side, from the back, It's a 2,000 square foot lot, more or less, and there's really no buildable area. So we're going to keep within a reasonable area of where the garages used to be. That was just to demonstrate that and to demonstrate how that's not uncommon in the neighborhood to have those types of setbacks. That's more of that. This was just a brief. Cobb Terrace was built on a very steep slope, and the name of Cobb Terrace, there are terraces made out of stone walls that are built where the houses are, patios are. As you can see from the topo lines, it's a very steep area. My design is going to continue to speak to the terraces. All right, here what you have is a few pictures of how the shed looks today. And at the top, you have some designs of before and after. The first one on the left is how it is today. The next one is the proposed change. And I have some more detailed elevations that I'll show in a minute. But it is a bit higher, and there's a stairwell that's enclosed that's added to the right. And you have side views of the next ones. And then the last one is a side view of how it looks today. And this was more talking about the steep slope. The green shaded area on the bottom right-hand side is the area that is steep slope per the definition of the steep slopes. Okay, this is a site plan. Let's see if I can enlarge that. All right, this is for orientation to Cobb Terrace. That's right around a very steep turn of Cobb Terrace where the gray house On the top there is 14 Cobb Terrace, and the road goes right around that. That's the one that I had restored and renovated about 22 years ago. The bottom is the site plan, where you can see the walkways come in from the street level. And on the right hand side is the rebuilt garage house with the enclosed stairwell to the left of it. And then you have The area where the existing shed is going to be slid over and installed on the top left part where one of the sheds was originally constructed 100 years ago. In between that area is going to be flattened out into a terrace with a retaining wall along the back side. It's natural dirt and maybe some gravel. And then you have a small patio area right beside the house. And that is going to be three feet lower than street level. But that's the site plan. Another elevation. I have another slide that shows the enhanced version that was created after the Board of Adjusters, but I'll get to that in a minute. But that's basically how the one on the left is the proposal and the one on the right is how it looks now. And the idea was to try to visually duplicate and make it look like it always was with the same kind of materials, a little bit taller, the same Lap siding the same tin roof look very very similar and that again is Shot from the side now from the side you can see the existing carriage house is built on brick piers, but the proposal is to enclose that in a solid brick wall foundation and and that below was where the daylight basement would be and There's some pictures of how it is today. You can see sort of the upper right side, that wall that you see right there is the wall that's basically holding up the street. So this was, if you're in the area between the two structures looking up at the street, that wall right there is what is holding up the street. And there's some more pictures of the property. and some more pictures. All right. I do have another more updated file that was separate from this that shows more detailed drawing or elevations. There you go.

That's it. They can't see it though.

I printed one out just in case I could pass it around.

All right, thank you.

All right, those are the more developed elevations that you see coming from the street. This is the faux garage door like it was before. And those windows would be looking into the inside. And then you have a slightly recessed area where you have the door, the entrance to the house. and then a small square window up at the top where other houses in the neighborhood have something similar. And then on one side, coming down Cobb Terrace, that's what you would see there coming from Franklin Street. And then on the other side, there would be some stairs and access to the different levels. And then around from the back side, that's where there would be an additional access door from the basement. Two ways to get out of the basement would be through the door straight in the back or up the stairs to the inside and with the small window there. So that's what I've got. I'd be happy to answer any questions. I answered in the application all the detailed questions. I wasn't sure if we needed to go through all that. I'm assuming maybe you guys have reviewed those answers.

Well, we may have questions. I do need to ask if there is anybody in the audience who wishes to also speak on this project. OK, hearing nobody, I'll ask commission members if we have questions for the applicant.

I have a couple, just minor. You say the height is somewhat taller than the original house. How much taller?

Approximately four feet taller.

Four feet taller? And that foundation wall, instead of brick piers, what is the material for that wall?

Currently, the brick piers are just red brick, regular bricks. And the material for the wall would also be mostly red brick, just the same. However, we were trying to balance getting some kind of a window and natural light in there, but also being concerned about security. There have been some security issues with people getting under the shed and staying there for a while and having to get run off, that sort of thing. It's dry, it's hidden, and that sort of thing. So there are people walking around that area. And there's nothing behind this house. I'm just concerned what it would look like. Right, right, right. The look is sort of part of a functional safety So there would be glass blocks that would be interlaid into the foundation where you could have light through, but it wouldn't be large enough to get through.

Like small areas of glass bricks? Sort of.

I'm imagining four by four. Like in the 50s. Okay. Four by four glass tiles that are opaque, that let light in, but obviously can't be opened.

Okay, thank you.

Hi, thank you very much for your presentation. I do have a couple of questions. And I guess the first one, I'm a little bit confused about the former garage. I saw the picture of it. It's getting lifted to the other side of your site. And it will still be on piers, is that correct?

No, it would be exactly the same. It would look the same with the same fully enclosed foundation, exactly the same as what I'm rebuilding for safety and for looking similar.

OK. And will it also then be a tiny house, or will it be a garage?

No, it's not allowed to be a second tiny house. It's going to be what it is today, which is storage. storage, your garage, your shop, your place to put your things that you don't need for your yard, and that sort of thing.

So it's a garden shed, not a garage, and not a house.

That is correct.

The car will not drive into it.

I would not. I was not going to build it strong enough to hold the weight of a garage. Now, a carriage could probably be rolled in there. I don't have a carriage, but it could hold a carriage for sure. Gotcha. Quick story on that is I had somewhat of a complicated sanitary sewer situation over there where I had to get, there's a manhole that is right down the hill from this property, but the owner of the university apartment land would not grant a sewer easement for me to access that manhole. And so therefore, I had to go across the road, across the property, across another road, down the other side of the hill, where that owner did allow me to have an easement. And part of the deal with the WASA, they said, hey, if you could get the sewer easer right down the hill behind you, we'll approve four stubs for you. But if you can't do that, if you've got to go this other route, it's just simply too long to have four stubs or four laterals of that length. It's just too much, too long. You can have one.

That makes sense. Interesting. OK, thank you for that. And then the wall in the back, it says it's a 30 inch height to create terrace between the structures. So you're envisioning that to be 30 inches on the activity side or 30 inches on the back side?

On the back side.

I'm just looking at the topo, and I kind of don't think that's going to work out at 30 inches. I just want to point that out. It's pretty steep.

It is. It is.

Okay. I guess that's my question. Thank you.

All right.

And the materials, there are plenty of other. I would like to respect the materials that are used. There are natural stone walls throughout that entire area. There's a structural element, because it will be holding up the dirt behind it. And I want to make sure we have something solid that's an engineer-approved structural wall. But the face of it would have natural stone, just like the wall that I showed you that's holding the road up.

So if it's only 30 inches tall, you won't have to have a railing or anything on top of it?

When the permits come, it will be compliant with whatever is required for the permits. I believe I understand that if it's 30 inches or below, you're not required to have a guardrail. But if that such a thing is required, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. But the idea would be There aren't those such guardrails like that predominantly throughout. There is a long cob terrace on the backside. There is maybe a 24 or so inch rock wall to keep the cars from driving off. But I was not planning on having an enclosed area there.

I do have a couple of questions for the record. Can you tell us about the exposure of the siding on both the existing carriage house and on the new structure you're planning?

The exposure meaning what it's of the materials?

Is it 5 and 1 half inches exposure?

It's approximately 5 inches. The idea would be I'm trying to match what was done on 14. That's how it is now. And 14 was matched to the garage and to the adjacent number 12. And so we're trying to get it all looking the same.

OK. What material would the siding be?

Well, I am hoping to duplicate what is on the number 14 house, which is beveled cedar siding. That's horribly expensive, but the quantity that we're talking about is not an enormous amount. It's pine right now. And I would like to have a material choice of somewhere between pine or the cedar siding. It's small enough to where I don't feel like I can have a big economical savings by putting hardy plank on there. Even though I think that might also work, I would just really rather match 14 and 12 with natural wood siding.

And tell me about the corner boards. Would they be the same material as the siding in a square edge?

The corner boards, again, are matching number 14. I have those. Those are painted pine. And they're an inch and a quarter thick. And so it... That's how the designer drew that for 14. Arts and crafts style, very square, boxy, not a lot of curved molding, that sort of thing.

Those are the questions I have.

Well, that brings up a question for me. You say the little corner boards are painted pine. If you stay with pine for the siding, would you paint that?

It's painted now, and it's painted a dark green. And I feel that fits with the woods feel. The woods are green. Like I said, there's nothing behind that except a ravine and forest. And it fades in a little bit with the hunter green. I like that. Number 14 is stained of a brown color, but I was feeling that I'd like to keep it that green color.

Thank you.

You do know that if you do have to put up a guardrail or a fence, you will have to come back to get that approved.

Agreed, yes.

I have no further questions.

No, I'm good.

Thank you very much. Thank you. We will now discuss the project among ourselves.

Josh, I would recommend that you close the evidentiary hearing.

Can you all hear? We'll close the evidentiary hearing and have discussion among commission members. Thank you very much for your presentation.

Can we go off mic to talk about this? Or do we have to keep the mic on?

We can keep the mic on.

OK. I'm just, what do you think about that four feet higher than the roof that's there? I can't quite vision the proportions of that. I mean, what would that look like from the street?

Sandra, can you speak into the mic?

I was just asking, Josh is an architect. The proportions of that roof being four feet higher than the original house, what that would sort of look like for such a tiny structure.

I think it would, you know, these are going to be two structures. They're distant from each other.

Josh, can you also speak into something?

These are going to be two structures. They're distant from each other. I think that the similarity in materials and the way the siding looks is going to be more important than the height.

Okay. Thank you.

The other houses in the area all have different heights also, the larger houses. So this is a tiny house and a tiny carriage house, and it will be different also. So that will be consistent.

Okay, thank you. In the beginning of the presentation, was it stated that he had been before the Board of Adjustment for this for setbacks and that that had been approved? Is that what the statement was?

OK. Yeah. One of our criteria is that we do look at front yards and we do look at setbacks. And I think that he made the point that he had gotten that approval. I'd also like to point out that the house across the street that I think he owns It has almost no setbacks. In fact, I think the house may be in the setback. So in terms of being consistent in that regard, this is a very tiny little closed-in area.

Right. And there's no parking on the site. The parking is elsewhere or a bicycle or something.

I think there is street parking in this area with a, Am I right that there's street parking if you have a sticker?

I know I've seen cars there parked on the street. I don't know if they're supposed to be there. The applicant might be able to provide some firsthand knowledge if you wanted to ask him, but if it's an important piece of your decision. Can we reopen? Yeah, you can reopen.

OK. Can you address the parking?

Sure. There's no parking on the lot, but there is available parking on the street. Each house is assigned a number of parking spaces that you're allowed to apply for with the town. one or two per bedroom. I would expect that I would get one permanent parking pass, which is tied to your license tag. They did away with the stickers. And instead, they have your license plate on record and tied to the parking district, which is not the entire historic district, but parts of certain roads. And when the enforcers come around to verify, they just simply look at your tag. And if your tag is on the record, then you're good to go permanently. It's renewed every year. And there's also a hang tag that you can use for guests. I would probably get one of them. It's allowed for 24 hours max.

Thank you.

Thank you. As an architect, do you have any comments on the lack of windows and how that relates to the rest of the district or at all?

As an architect, I know this is a tiny house. But I do know on Cobb Terrace, there are a number of these carriage houses which have very few windows. And they've been converted into houses. And they have windows out the back. Some of them have windows on the street, but not many. They're not large.

Or on the sides, that would not be typical for a carriage house to have windows.

Right.

So it's not incongruous then?

No, I don't think it's incongruous to have.

Not to say, it sounds really cute, in spite of all the questions.

And I am believing it does have a large window facing the ravine in the back. I see it's a ravine from your topographic map. Yes. So in a small space, that one big window would probably provide a lot of light.

How do you feel?

I think for what this is, it's not incongruous with the rest of the neighborhood. But I wouldn't want to live there.

Can I have a motion? Somebody want to make a motion?

I move that the application is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district, according to the application of the relevant provisions of the LUMO and the HGC's design standards based upon the facts presented in the record.

Thank you. Is there a second?

I second.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Aye. Any opposed? Thank you very much. This passes.

OK, thank you, Josh. Good job. Now we're going to open the evidentiary portion of the hearing for 204 Glen Burnie Street. Can you hand me the affirmation, please? While they're getting that ready, is there any conflicts? Ex-partite communications? There are none.

Correct. The one that emailed earlier today.

The PDF is a little difficult to control. You won't be able to see anything here. You won't be able to see it there. Okay.

And I just kind of scroll on the wheel or use the arrows?

So since it's pages, you can use these arrows. Okay. If you want to zoom in, I'm going to let you try and figure it out. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let me...

She was helpless. She was helpless, but it was the right thing to do.

Just print your name, sign it.

for a tiny house that...

It's just a labor of love. Okay.

OK, is everybody all organized?

OK, yes.

All right, I'm going to read you an affirmation. And after I read it, if you could please say.

Can I just interrupt? Yes. Can all of the people that are going to be testifying, can you all get sworn in at the same time?

OK, so these are people that are going to be public speaking when we open to the public?

All three of these are on the applicant's team.

OK. And for what it's worth, this is the opportunity for anybody who might speak either on behalf of or against the application. This will be your opportunity to come up, be sworn in. We can then work through whether there are other members of the public who might wish to participate in the evidentiary hearing as parties or as witnesses for and against the application.

So I'm going to read the affirmation. If everyone can say I so affirm afterwards, then when you come up to actually talk, give us your name, OK? Because we won't be able to get all your names on the mic at one time. So I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the Historic District Commission and the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth. I so affirm. OK, thank you very much. Let's start with the man at the mic. Please state your name.

Sean Hassan.

Don, do we want to confirm if anybody wants to participate as a party withstanding or as a witness?

Is there anyone else here? Well, let me do this because I haven't done this yet while we're talking. I want to officially open the evidentiary portion of this hearing now. Is there anyone else that's going to be talking other than the team?

And for what it's worth, this is the opportunity for members of the public who may wish to speak in favor of or in opposition to this case. If you wish to participate as a party, Meaning that you would be entitled to cross-examine the applicant's witnesses, to object to the introduction of evidence, potentially to appeal an approval of the COA if it were to be approved this evening. This is your opportunity to present testimony or evidence demonstrating that you have legal standing to participate. Whether you have standing or not, you are more than welcome to participate as a witness, meaning that you can provide testimony about facts within your personal knowledge that may bear on the HTC's consideration of this case. So those are kind of your two options. You can participate as a party with standing, in which case you'll have to make an evidentiary showing and persuade a majority of the commission. well, I suppose in this evening, a unanimous panel of the commission, that you would suffer special damages as a result of the approval of the COA. And if you persuade the commission of that finding, then you would be entitled to participate on equal footing to the applicant. On the other hand, you are more than welcome to participate as a witness, meaning, again, you can present testimony about facts within your personal knowledge. So I think, and the reason this is important or relevant, I suppose, at this stage is if anyone wishes to participate as a party withstanding, we need to conduct kind of a mini evidentiary hearing before we get into the applicant's presentation. On the other hand, if you wish to participate solely as a witness, then we'll let the applicant go ahead, and then you'll have an opportunity later on to present your comment. Understood. OK. Thank you.

OK. That wasn't in a mic. So he said, as a witness. OK. Wanted to make sure it was on the record there. OK. The floor is yours. Good evening.

Thank you, historic district commission members, for having us here today. And I just want to say thank you for the work you do. We really appreciate your time. My name is Sean Hassan. I'm a licensed architect with BuildSense based in Durham. I grew up in Chapel Hill, went to Chapel Hill High. But I've been practicing for almost 15 years now. I think you're familiar with the firm BuildSense. We've done a lot of projects in the historic district, and we also build the projects that we design. Here today, we are presenting the Holmes Koch House at 204 Glen Burnie. And we've had the privilege of designing and building this addition We did a previous edition for our clients, Jonathan and Marika Schooler, back in 2021. And we just have loved being a part of their lives and a part of the Franklin Rosemary Historic District and We're seeking to set them up for their forever home, as they've been calling it. They're seeking to just retire here and grow old in the home together. And so all the work that we're presenting here today is focused on how to make that happen, like accessibility, long-term aging in place. And with that, I'd like to have Jonathan Schooler say a few words.

Thank you, Sean, and thank you to the committee for having us tonight. Sean mentioned that we purchased the house in 2000. It was in the height of COVID. And we were new to Chapel Hill. We didn't go to school here. We're from Texas, but we got here as quick as we could. And this Chapel Hill reminds us a lot of Austin. 30 years ago but we decided to make it our home because of the beauty of the city the beauty of the neighborhood the neighbors we selected this town out of a list of great college towns we thought that we visited and and here we are so we purchased the house in the height of covid and The only thing we could think of that it needed was a bathroom upstairs. And that's why we were here previously. And you approved that. We built that with BuiltSense. And it was wonderful. It's worked out very, very well. Mark and I like to say that we've lived in four homes since we've been married. And this house is by far the most us. It is comfortable. it is the stairs creek when i come down the stairs in the morning to get coffee i like that in a house it has some life in it we have enjoyed having i think four or five people come to the front door and say hey i lived in your library you know when i went to school here can i come and tour the house and it's just it's a it's a nice thing to uh to have um As far as the house itself and the lot, we say it's like living in a botanical garden with wraparound windows. I mean, we sit downstairs and it's green everywhere you can see. And we really wanted to preserve that with everything that we've done. Which brings us to this application, which is I recently had a milestone birthday. I need to start thinking about you know, the next chapter in life. And how do we age in place in this house? There's nothing downstairs except a powder room. So we went back to BuildSense, and we asked them to give it some thought. And the obvious answer would be an elevator to the upstairs. That did not work for a variety of reasons one because of the structure of the upstairs. It would be hard to do to sink Showers that were Ada compatible and so forth And secondly the only place to put the elevator off the back of the house where it wouldn't be on the side and visible from the street Would literally be next to our kitchen, and it would close off the windows that we bought the house for And so that was a non-starter. We didn't want to do that. So we said, let's just open it up. What could we do here that would fit the bill? And the bill is, I want to live there and until the last possible moment in my life. I hope that they actually take me out heels first. But as long as we can live in this house and age in place, what can we do with the existing floor plan? And the solution that they came up with, I thought, was pretty nifty. And that was, and Sean will go into the details, but that was to bump the back of the house out to meet an existing kitchen bump out and put in an ADA bathroom. And along with that, as we bumped the bathroom out, put in a shaft for a lift just to the first floor. So we're not going to the second floor at all. When we looked at going to the second floor, what that would have created was this hulking mass that just loomed out over the house. So we only go up to the first floor. And then we live on the first floor with an ADA bathroom, and we can live in what we call the library. And that's the intention. We're also putting in a small pool. Another charge that we gave them was I like to do stationary swimming, which I only need, I'm six feet tall, I only need about 12 feet by eight feet. So we have a small pool that we're putting in. But one of the requirements was to keep the backyard as big as possible because particularly Marika is a native plant gardener and really enjoys working in the garden. So that's the overall program. And I hope you enjoy it. I think you're going to enjoy the program that they came up with. Can I answer any questions?

No, I don't think yet. We'll wait till we get the rest of the presentation. But thank you for your comments. We appreciate it.

Thank you so much, Jonathan.

OK. Let me go to you.

OK, so I'm going to go ahead and dive in. Here you can see the existing conditions photographs of each elevation. Our work is occurring on the rear elevation, which you can see here, the bottom left image. That's where the bulk of the work is occurring. If you go up to the top right image, that is the elevation that faces the garage that's already there. You can also see the work from that vantage point. I just want to reiterate there is nothing that we are proposing here today that will be visible from the public right-of-way along Glen Burnie. So I just kind of wanted to point that out and the two elevations where you're going to see the work. OK, I'll go to the next. So here you see the existing site plan on the property. Please note that I just want to make a note that we did not show the bountiful landscaping that Jonathan spoke of. We were kind of just focusing on the architecture, and I apologize that we did not include that in the presentation. I will say the only thing that is being affected in terms of landscaping is there's a magnolia that's pretty close to the back of the house that will get removed. So other than that, we're planning on maintaining all this border shrub and trees. And actually, after the construction, we're planning on having them add to that landscape. And Jonathan actually notified me recently that his yard is a certified bird habitat. um so there are a native plant lovers you could say and they're going to be cultivating that as part of this project um So I just flicked on that next slide. You can see I've highlighted that in red. That is what's going to be removed from the property. That is we're removing the rear wooden deck and a portion of the brick landing there. Here's the proposed site plan. And I know it's kind of hard to tell what's going on, so we've zoomed in here. So this is a blown up view of the rear of the property. So back on the accessibility front, in order to provide accessibility, we are proposing there is an existing gravel drive that leads from Glen Burnie in this direction to the property. there highlighted in blue is a proposed concrete pad that we will um transition that will allow someone parking at the pad to then get out in a wheelchair and easily access the lift which is shown in red Hopefully we won't have to use wheelchairs, but we just wanted to make sure that we provided full accessibility here. So there is where the lift will be located. Now, I just wanted to bring attention to that kitchen bump out that Jonathan mentioned. You can see it's highlighted in red there. It is non-original to the original house form. We verified that on a 1915 Sanborn fire map. but we did feel that it was appropriate to let that dictate how the addition was formed mast and the roof plane matched that exactly so you'll see more of that in the elevations as we keep moving um but yeah i just wanted to highlight that that kitchen bump out kind of sets the tone for the heated addition And then we also set back the addition from the original house form to let the main house read as the original house. So this next slide in yellow, we're just kind of highlighting that exists, the proposed ramp. So if I go to the next slide, there's this old Chapel Hill stone walls and us here in the historic district, we love old stone walls. So we're just trying to keep, we're just gonna maintain that. We actually let the design of that concrete ramp follow the contour of that wall. And then obviously, this grade level, to get down to the basement level, we needed a certain run of 1 to 12 ramp. So that's where we're getting that length of ramp there. If I go to the next slide, you can see in purple, that is the deck that we're essentially rebuilding the deck that was there, but now with this ramp that we've created and that larger space it has afforded us, we are going back with a new wooden deck that is larger, more accessible, more able to view birds and things like that. So I'll go to the next. Here in green, I just wanted to highlight the very low site walls. That was one thing that Jonathan was adamant about is having very low, kind of almost sunken site walls that just serves to catch that existing grade. so that we're not having to grade much outside of those walls. But it allows for the pool and the patio in this addition to kind of be sunken down so that really you're not even perceiving this much at all, even along the rosemary extension up there. But you'll see that more as we keep moving. And then in blue, that is the pool and the patio area. Just wanted to highlight that with a couple steps down to grade. And then in the light green color, that's the proposed fencing. We are required by pool code in North Carolina to have a fence. And in order to not make it feel like you have a pool and then a fence right around the pool. They want access to their beautiful yard. We said, OK, let's push the fence out as much as we can. However, we still want to orient the fence in a way that allows to maintain as much of those plantings that Marica has worked so hard to build, trying to basically find that balance of having the fence inset from that stone wall but outset from all that existing landscaping so that it can kind of just disappear in a way. Jonathan mentioned he's envisioning vines growing. This thing will just kind of disappear and kind of serve that code purpose. And hopefully you won't even notice there's a fence there. And then those are all the beautiful colors of everything that we've color coded there. I know as architects, Eric and I stare at this stuff for hours. But for someone who's never seen it before, I think this always helps. OK. So here I will start diving into more of the details on the design. Here is the existing basement plan. As you can see, it can be a bit hard to see here, but in the dashed lines, that's what we are removing. So if I go to the next one, the red highlight just kind of makes that more clear. So we're removing the wood deck and portions of that brick walkway. There is a kind of precarious concrete walkway that leads you from the grade level of the yard down to the basement level. And it's just not a safe or pleasant experience walking down into there. And this is not just a basement. There's a lot going on down there. They have a sauna that they have to help with their health. They have an office. Samarica's office is down here. They have a bathroom. So they're wanting to really maximize the use of getting in and out of these spaces. So then this slide shows the proposed basement plan. So existing, proposed. So here in red, you're seeing the added heated square footage. Again, that's that kitchen bump out above. So we're just aligning with that bump out and then obviously insetting it from the main house on that north side. and over here I'm highlighting the underdeck storage area. So as part of the pool, since we're coming down into that basement level, we just decided it made a lot of sense to create an enclosed storage area where they could house pool amenities or yard implements and things of that nature. So here is the first floor plan. And here in red, you can see again, that's the existing plan. So it's kind of repeating the same thing. We're removing that deck, which is on that first floor level, removing some walkway below. And then as you get to this area, I just wanted to point out the fact that we are, in red here, this is this existing powder room that Jonathan mentioned that we're gonna make accessible. And then here is the proposed first floor. So let me go through this. So here I'm highlighting that kitchen bump out And then there is where the heated addition will be. So it's running alongside that bump out. And this is the new bathroom that is accessible. We made it as accessible as possible with the space we were given. So I think you can kind of see it straddles the line between the existing and then that shower is in the new footprint. And then here you can see the enlarged deck. So I hope that is clear as far as what we're doing here. I will kind of just go up to the second level. There's not much happening on that second floor. Aside from I've highlighted here. There's an existing window. It's a double hung window one of Jonathan's request as he's squeaking down the stair is um He had imagined having a window of the same exact size of proportion just like centered on that stairway so that's one other thing we were proposing as part of this project and Instead of the other thing there is accessibility and emergency egress. As part of the 2021 addition, we had added two casement windows up on the third floor that we're allowing better emergency fire egress. So on this window, instead of just a double hung, we're proposing a casement window, but it will be styled to look like a double hung. So we'll have like a rail, basically two sashes, and it will function as a casement. There. elevations so here we're looking at the rear east elevation and then down below that is the the side elevation so if I go to my next slide I'm doing my highlighting thing again just to help clarify so you can see here let me grab my So in the dashed line, that's the famous kitchen bump out. That is kind of what has been setting the tone for our addition. In red here, that's the existing deck with a French door, transom, and a few windows that Jonathan loves to look out and view the birds. That's what we're trying to recreate. Up there, that's that existing window. From that other elevation, you're seeing the side of that kitchen bump out. So this is down along the Rosemary extension. And one thing I wish we would have shown in our elevations is the grade. You're not going to see the grade dip down as much as that. Like when you're down at the Rosemary extension, it falls down quite a bit. That's another layer of shielding this from view down there. But I'll just keep moving here. So proposed elevation. So you can kind of see existing proposed. We let that bump out continue out with the hipped roof form. We have kept the massing consistent there, inset it from the house there. One of the things that you can see here is, I'll zoom in a little bit. This skinny rectangle here is the proposed lift. So you will enter at grade level, which is about five feet below the main house level. That lift will bring you up to the kitchen level. So that lift, as Jonathan mentioned, is completely contained within that first floor form. And then you can see in purple, that's the deck. And then in yellow, that is the ADA accessible concrete ramp that we're providing to get down to that basement and pool patio level. And then up here, that's where that existing window was and we're just sliding it to be centered on that stair.

Okay, let's keep moving.

And then from along that side, you can see in the purple, the deck with the storage area below, the bump out that is maintained and the yellow of the ramp. And one thing I wanted to note was that there have been two major additions on the property. There has been a 2007 addition by architect Steven Drewsey. And he actually won several awards for that addition. Part of his addition was enclosing this sunroom into a sunroom. It was a porch. He was using double hung windows without the diamond grill muntin pattern. And then he also used a lapped cedar siding with a cedar corner board painted to kind of match what was happening around the house. Eric and Build Sense, it was before my time there, but they did the same exact thing. They took the same approach with the lapped siding, corner board painted to match. We're also doing the exposed rafter tail detail. And that's going to be one thing I'm looking forward to overseeing during the construction because I have a deep love for rafter tails and all that stuff. So we're going to be doing that there as well. So I'll get out of here. And then the next slide shows the other existing elevations. You can see a little bit better here the Druesee addition. So the next slide, yeah, here is those windows that Druesee had added. Here is what we had added. So I'm just highlighting that bathroom addition with the lap siding. And then if I zoom in a bit you can kind of see that existing bump out from this vantage point and the deck. There's also an existing like non-original kind of funky square window that's currently in that powder room. We're actually going to be taking one of the existing original windows and relocating it to that side as part of our bathroom renovation. So that's one thing there. And then I just kind of wanted to point out here, as part of our addition, this is where the accessibility kind of happens. You're seeing this accessible door to the lift at the grade level. um you're seeing this ex this bump out piece being brought back towards you the purple highlighted is the new expanded deck and then the yellow with the ramp okay Here are the existing photos. I kind of wanted to get into the material. Let's just see here. Basically if I zoom in, We're striving to be as much in keeping with the original house as possible. First, we are using the same asphalt shingle roof that is currently on the house. Because we did the renovation earlier, I actually am cheating a little bit with the spec sheet that Eric did back then. So I'm kind of just going right off of what we have. There, the original windows, we're trying to match same size and proportion, relocating windows as much as we can. There are half round copper gutters and round downspouts, and we're going back with that exact same thing on the addition. wood shingle siding. That's what is currently on the house, but as I mentioned before, we're going with the lap siding just to kind of let the original house read as original and let the addition read as that addition with the lap siding. And this diagram kind of shows you those were those egress windows we added as i mentioned back in 2021 here are some original windows that was the little window that we're going to be replacing and here you can see that steve and drucy edition we're kind of following that language If I go to the next slide, this gets into more material that we're using. So basically, with the deck, we want to choose materials that will last for a very long time. And so the composite decking was a way to do that. And also, we're using a special type of interlocking decking that will allow the storage area to be completely dry. So that way you're not getting rain between cracks or anything like that. And then as far as the sides of the deck, we're using a thermally modified wood, which you can see here. And that will silver over time as it is exposed to UV exposure. So we're also selecting the composite decking in a gray color to blend with that once it silvers. Let's see. Over here, this is a painted steel railing that we're going to provide around the edge of the deck. Our favorite metal fabricator, Leo Gave, he's done a lot of great stuff in the historic district. He'll be doing that. We're using a three panel access door that kind of hearkens back to what's happening at the front door. It also has a three panel. We're using a four panel folding door to enclose that storage area below. And as far as those very low site walls, we kind of landed on a architectural CMU. It's a very high grade of concrete masonry block. And it will serve to provide a very long-lasting material. And then the limestone coping on top will kind of tie it in with the original Chapel Hill stone wall. Over here, you're kind of just seeing how we're going to execute that French door with transom and side lights, very similar to what is existing. And then over here, you're seeing an aluminum pool fence that will hopefully be completely covered in vines and have a lot of vegetation around it. So I hope that answers the questions. I'm here to answer any of your questions. Do you guys have any questions?

Was there anyone else that was going to speak? I'd like to speak. Okay, please. Are you talking to the public now? The public. Anybody that wants to speak? And as part of the evidentiary hearing, it's still open. And please state your name.

Hello, my name is Charles Nunn. I live at 709 East Rosemary Street. and um well thank you for the opportunity to speak we're the neighbors of the school hours and we very much enjoy having them as neighbors they're fantastic neighbors they have a beautiful property a beautiful home we have absolutely no concerns about the accessibility changes to the house the exterior you know all those changes are I think it's really great foresight and planning that you guys have. And I think it was a beautiful presentation, Sean, that you gave about the plan for this house. Our concerns really have to do with the fence, the pool, and the expanded deck in the back, and how that fits into the historic district feel and guidelines of building in the historic district. And I have three concerns, and I'll bring them up in order here and try to be brief. The first is the location of the pool and the fence. The application really focuses on the appearance from Glen Burnie. And Sean, that's how you started your presentation. And then you remembered that also there's East Rosemary Street. And that's the street I live on. And it's a gravel road. And I'm sure it's not as pretty in some people's eyes as Glen Burnie is. But that's a street that has historic homes on it. And we are in the historic district. And I actually have some pictures from that street. And I think that you can see, I'll be happy to give them to you if I'm allowed to, I think you'll see that this will be pretty apparent from that part of the street, from that street, from the historic district. And I'll read from the guidelines The introduction of large man-made contemporary site features such as swimming pools Should only be considered if the site feature can be accommodated in an unobtrusive location that successfully screens its visibility from the street Minimizing its impact on the historic district and that's from the guidelines for this property that would be the northeast corner not the southeast corner and And in the northeast corner, they have a two-story garage. And so that's not an option for them to put these structures there. The second point involves the pool itself, the request for a pool and the associated fence. First of all, I'm not aware of other pools in the historic district. I guess they are allowed. I don't see any restrictions about that in the guidelines for the historic district. I'm not aware of any around us, but I'm especially not aware of any that are basically on a street, because it would be effectively on East Rosemary Street going down that dirt road. As well, if there is a pool, obviously there has to be a fence for the pool. That makes good sense. But that fence, it seems to us, should be around the pool, not around this whole large area of the backyard, including right up to our property line. And so that fence will be right on our property line. Now, another important thing about that fence on our property line is the topography of the site, which we could see a little bit in the elevations. But I did bring some pictures as well, if you would like to see them. It slopes very steeply down Rosemary. But it also, the property, the school's property also slopes to Rosemary. And so that back stone wall of ours steps down. And now we're going to be looking at a fence that, is that fence going to step down? We don't have any kind of details on that. But it's going to be right on our property line. They're not going to have to deal with it and look at it, because there are trees between that fence and their property. But we have concerns about what that's going to do on our property and how that's going to fit in with our property. So we request that the pool and the fence component of this project not be approved. And if the pool is built and the fence is for the pool, the fence should go around the pool and not around the whole property edge and the porch and everything else, the expanded deck in the back. Now, the third point has to do with the deck itself. And again, we feel that the HTC guidelines are not really being incorporated or considered in the design of the deck. As I already mentioned, the topography of this area slopes down pretty steeply to our house, so that when we're standing in our yard, we look up at their house. We look up at their garage. It's a very imposing feeling, their property, and essentially this deck is going to make it more so. Now, we bought the property. The house was like it was. It's a beautiful house. It's a beautiful property. They've done wonderful things with it. We're not complaining about the situation as it is. We love living there. It's just, how will this change things? And yes, there are some trees in between our house and their house, but Trees don't last forever.

We don't know for sure what's going to happen with those trees.

And we risk having a deck built out that is already above us and coming out from the first floor of the house, consistent with HDC guidelines. that is going to really overpower our house. It's going to be amassing from the perspective of our house. And from the street and the historic district perspective, it's going to have a kind of massing effect against the border of our property. Now, in the historic district guidelines, there are a couple of things that are relevant to remind everyone of. The buildings should be sited with spacing consistent with existing buildings and immediate surroundings. The design and site of buildings should incorporate the topography and significant site features. Owners should limit the size and scale of decks and patios to minimize their visual impact. Do not introduce a deck or patio if it will visually overpower the building or site or substantially alter the proportion of constructed area to unbuilt area. Which I think we can see on these plans, this is really increasing the constructed area pretty significantly with that expanded deck, the pool, the accessible ramp, all of those other things. It's a pretty big increase. As well, it says to align the decks with the building's first floor. That's being done. But for sites with steep topography or high foundations, consider multi-level decks that step down to follow the topography of the site. That guideline has not been followed here.

And so we request that extending and expanding the deck also not be approved as part of this application.

And if the deck is approved, Please require that it follow these guidelines and not be designed in a way that potentially will overpower our house, that it follows the topography of the site. So those are my three points. We're East Rosemary Street, part of the historic district. It's not all about Glen Burnie. We drive down that road every day. It is part of the historic district. There are other houses on there besides us. Second of all, the pool. If there's going to be a pool there needs to be a fence, but where does that fence go seems to us? It should go around the pool and then finally the deck itself consideration of the topography and the the site next door Thank you, thank you.

I have a couple questions based on that Sean I You're applying for a COA from the HTC. Is this part of the overall requirement for the review from the town? Has this been looked at to see if it meets code and ordinance by the town?

We have not submitted it for like a zoning permit with the town. I don't think you need a zoning permit.

You just need to turn in for a building permit.

We have done extensive research with the existing building code. We've done a... pretty thorough research on the site. And we are very confident this can get approved with the town of Chapel Hill. OK. We don't do any projects without doing a thorough checklist beforehand.

All right. I ask that because our commissioner said this, but I want to make sure you understand. At the HTC, we review historic district commission guidelines only. We can't really act on uh any non-compliant issues like fences being too close too high that kind of thing oh no yeah we actually have been working pretty heavily on the construction document and permit set because we know it complies okay and what about the uh the deck it's as i remember it's 20 feet wide and about 20 feet long um what dictated the size of the the back deck there

Well, as you can kind of see, the 1 to 12 ramp that is required for accessibility, we can't really minimize the length of that ramp. And so if we're going to have that ramp there, that deck naturally wants to fill in that space. And furthermore, it's their right to have a deck at that size to accommodate their living situation and their aging in place. Why would we not build a deck to enclose that area?

Yeah, I just wanted for evidence and record to hear your explanation. I can imagine the reason you've done it on one level as opposed to creating a multi-level deck is the accessibility issue. Okay.

please yep uh speaking to the the mic eric melman i'm design lead with uh with build sense okay very good thank you i think sean's doing a really fantastic job i just want to be able to jump in for a second um i i think there's a couple things that are overlooked in uh I appreciate your comments. I really do. I wish we were able to discuss them before this moment. I'm driving this presentation, and Sean put it together. What he was discussing right now was, hey, well, the one idea to get the lift to get up to the first floor, now we have first floor accessibility, and that minimizes this three-story elevator that we started with. And the other is getting a ramp down to get to the basement. And so, yes, we did use the negative space in there to execute the deck. But what I really want to go to is the elevations and I think what's really important is we look at this elevation here. And once again, this is cut, for those of you who deal with drawings all the time, we're cutting this grade line right along the edge of the house here. You can see the old steps that go into the basement. And when we transition over, we've cut a section through this area. I wish I could draw a line right now, but grade back here is up. It's up at the same location that it was. I can follow it across. And so what we're seeing here looks well bigger than what it actually is. This is a subterranean ramp. It goes down into grade. And so is the entire area that we were just discussing, if I go back. to the site plan, all of this area, this wall is a max, might be 30 inches out of grade on this side. uh towards our neighbor's property uh so that the ramp can drop down and this one successfully hides this is the same same height on this side and the pool is dropped down behind it uh the way that rosemary drops off here and there's a wall on the edge I frankly would be amazed if you could know that there was a pool in this backyard when you're on Rosemary Street. We really spent a lot of time trying to be thoughtful about the approach to this and try to make it non-obtrusive and small. So when I go back to the deck in the elevation, Once again, the effective height of the deck really will be apparent from about here. And if we go to the old elevation, I mean, there's the old deck. And here's the new deck. Old deck, new deck. We were trying to be thoughtful with the way this was executed. I do want to mention while I'm up here, I know that there's four commissioners here tonight. And there can be votes on this. If there's a need for us to go back and revisit stuff, we'd rather have the opportunity to do that than to be denied here tonight. We do consider ourselves thoughtful designers, and we want to make sure we get it right. But we do feel that the work that has been presented falls really well within the guidelines, and we've spent time to try to execute that. But I'm still here to answer more questions and show on this as well.

Okay. Sorry. Does anybody have more questions for the team or the public?

That fence, could we hear again the reason why the fence is so extensive?

Sorry, Sean, I'm jumping in. Where is that fence line? Oh, I go back. Whoops. There you go. All of them are on. You did ask a question about the fence line relative to the property. And it is on the property line and in the setback. I mean, the request that was made was to try to put it around the pool only. And I think that anybody who's been to a pool in which you put a fence directly on the pool realizes that it's hard to enjoy the pool um and this there's a line of of trees along here um and the fence was going to be settled between them and the stone wall um and on this side we it set back from the stone wall so it was frankly just a notion to preserve yard area to plant and enjoy so one can walk from the patio and the pool into their yard and not through fence gates and also a dog at the house. And so there was a consideration for that. So that was the decision on that. It is proposed to be a six-foot wrought iron-styled aluminum fence. I think that code requires it to be four feet. And if that was a notion that would minimize the fence impact, I think that's something that our clients would consider. And if there's a middle ground on fence location, that's something that could be discussed. But I think they'd rather start with just maybe minimizing the height, if that's correct.

Yes, please. If you could come up and speak into the microphone so it'll be on record. Thank you.

Thank you. We have a new Norwegian elk count, and four feet is not going to keep it in. So that was the consideration with that. Along that back fence, and Charlie, Mr. Nunn was very good. He came over and we had a discussion about that fence line and the trees and so forth, because we didn't include the landscaping. And so he got the impression that perhaps we were taking down all the trees. But all those trees will stay. The question is, where do you put that fence? If you try and come inboard, then you create a no man's land, right? Because if you see where the green line is, let's say we come in to the setback and put a fence there. outboard of that setback line, if the fence were there, you've got cryptomeria trees, which, as you know, are quite tall, quite big, quite extensive. If you put the fence there, then you have a no man's land, a little swath of no man's land between the fence and the stone wall, which then drops off into Charlie's and Sheila's property. And so how do you access that little corridor? How do you maintain it? How do you plant it, weed it, do everything that you're supposed to do? As opposed to if you put the fence on the property line, the trees will partially overhang it. We can put plantings along it, and we can access them. We couldn't access them if the fence were inboard of it. Does that help?

That does. Thank you. Gives us more information. Thank you. OK, well, if there's no more questions.

Yes, sir. Can I share these pictures with the commission?

Is that acceptable? Is that acceptable, Kevin?

Sure. Because I think it just goes to the point.

Mr. Nunn, if you could wait. Thank you.

It just goes to the point, I'm sorry, Eric? Yes. Eric, it goes to Eric's point about whether this is visible or not from East Rosemary. It's hard for me to judge from these drawings, but I took a picture today standing, I'm six foot tall, picture right at the wall. And I think it, I think you're going to see this, you're going to see this built, the deck for sure. The walls there in front of the pool, and I suspect the pool.

Where were you standing when you took the picture?

On East Rosemary Street. I'll show you, and I think it'll be obvious.

And I would just ask that a copy of each photograph that you're presenting to the commission be provided to staff for the record.

And these are all different photos. Okay, I'll pass them down.

And then this is the backstone wall and the stepping down of it, and an example of that fence. And so again... We have the stepping down of the stone wall that we're going to somehow just have this fence in front of it that I think is architecturally problematic.

No, it isn't. Before, I think the applicant ought to also have an opportunity to review these photographs and to comment on them if they feel that's necessary.

Thank you. Thank you.

I mean, you can see pretty clearly the deck from that vantage point. And so the deck is going to be going back another 20 feet or 14 feet from where it is. And obviously, because of the grade, it's going to be quite visible. And then the pool will be there. I think it would be visible. Maybe if it's sunk down enough, it won't be. It's hard for me to judge that. But all of that area is going to be cleared out. And it's going to really impact the view from East Rosemary Street. And I think that that picture shows that. But maybe that's a point for discussion. So

And Josh and Sandra, when you all are finished taking a look at that, can you pass those forward for the applicant to take a look at?

Yes, you can ask a question, always.

That's from our yard. This is from the east. That's from the east.

That's an example of the fence. So I mean I feel like the fence is the main thing that we Because in my perspective, the deck is extending no more than about 10 feet from what it currently is.

Sean, could I ask if you could speak into the mic? Yeah. And also, I'll add, Eric or Sean, if you want to speak to a specific image. and reorient the commissioners. You're more than welcome to show the image that you're speaking to, but then please make sure that you're talking into a microphone. We can get you set up over here with one of these mics, too.

And could you show us the pictures relative to the aerial photograph you have that shows the surrounding houses and Rosemary and the whole context? This is oriented differently, and it's kind of confusing.

Yeah.

This is the same as that sheet. Okay, there's four pictures. I just wanted to make sure we were addressing these properly.

So yeah, this photo where you can.

Yeah, if you can, you've already been emailing, you can just send it to me and we can get it up on the screen.

OK, while you guys are looking at that, you need to know that I can't hurry you along because, I mean, this is your evidentiary hearing. But we do stop taking, we won't take the next applicant after 9 o'clock. They'll be pushed off until the next meeting, just so you'll know.

I want to start with the back-to-back photos here. One is from Rosemary, and it's looking across at the garage in the backyard.

So I think one of the commissioners asked if we could see the area plan showing the streets and the houses. Could you go to that plan?

Yeah, the small area with there.

Can you zoom in on that?

Yeah. I'm gonna am I gonna be recorded can I project I guess we can use I'm sorry my mom was a public speaker She taught me to project, but I know we need to be recorded so we'll stay here and use the cursor There you go So Go to this The south side is Rosemary Extension along this side. This photograph here is more or less here. It's looking across the site. I look at this beautiful landscape with the wall and plantings and everything in bloom. And I look at that with a wrought iron fence that would be set back at about another five feet from the wall. And I look and say, would that be incongruous with the district? And I'm not coming up with how that fence has become offensive on its own terms and how it would be incongruous with the district. I guess that comes down to maybe it's just personal style and choice. But on that side of the property, the fence has been set back beyond that wall. On the flip side of that, we're seeing off property. But the corner here where the wall raises is the subject property. And it's the same thing there. With the abundance of the trees back there, I'm actually a little bit more confused about the consideration for the fence. And I know that. The schoolers put out a section of fence, which is in this other photo. There's two other photos with a section of fence. That was put out voluntarily by the schoolers to look at fencing along that line. And when I see a wrought iron fence sitting above a Chapel Hill stone wall, I see Chapel Hill vernacular. So once again, I'm asking the question. I'd love to get response, especially from our landscape folks and architects that are out here about this being something that is incongruous with the district.

Well, that's something we're going to discuss after we close the evidentiary hearing. And we'll talk about what we feel like does fit within the historic district guidelines and what does not. But I agree with you, the stone walls and the aluminum wrought iron-like fencing is allowed in the historic district, as we heard from a previous applicant. So are there any more presentations that need to be made? If not, we're going to close the evidentiary hearing.

I do have a question.

OK, Josh?

This concerns the deck. And I do really love Leo's work. I've used him. I really like his work. But in this particular context, I would like to ask you why you have chosen to use a very contemporary railing on a deck in a house which do not have contemporary attributes.

I think within the Secretary of Standards and within historic districts, you're advised at times to not recreate the past. And the client said, I would like to have a more modern look to this deck. So it is clad in the thermary wood, which is a beautiful aging wood, topped with a composite decking that will last longer to match that. and they simply went with a more contemporary rail system instead of a more traditional wooden rail as the one that's on their current deck that's kind of rotted away and been replaced a few times. So it was just, I think, a user choice from the client, but I think that We're focused on scale, massing, proportion, everything that's working within the district, on the site, and in the neighborhood, and feel that the proportions and the style of everything that's been worked together and the tapestry behind the house is working very well and respecting its continuity with the district.

The design standards, Secretary of Interior design standards called that contemporary compatible, which is a really funny term. But that's a term they actually use in some of their brochures. OK. May I say one thing before you close? Certainly.

One of the things about, partially addressed to Charlie, one of the things about wanting to live somewhere for the rest of your life is you don't want to live around people who are unhappy with you, right? And so I am getting what you are saying. I'm sorry that I did not get that earlier. But I want you to know that we spent a lot of time sinking everything down to try and get it below grade so that you weren't affected any more than you needed to be. And frankly, you don't want to look into my backyard. I don't want to look into your backyard. I mean, that's natural. The other thing I just want to say about the railing on top of the deck. What I like about that is it just goes away. You know if we put the typical four by four I don't know what you call it. You would white pickets You know that's a that's a much bigger mass back there than to me black thin iron Makes the whole top of the deck just disappear, which is why I like it, so I just want to add that.

Thank you All right. Thank you very much Do you guys have any more questions for the applicant? If not, we'll close the evidentiary hearing, portion of this hearing, and we'll have some discussion if somebody wants to discuss.

Well, there is a question about the deck being overwhelming in the neighborhood. I'm just sort of at a loss of exactly what that would look like from across the road or down the street. Would have been helpful to have just a sketch of what that would look like. not just an elevation sketch, but sort of, you know, a drawing or, you know, a Photoshop photo, what that would, the feel of that, because that is part of the design principle.

I agree. Josh, you have any big negatives or positives?

No, I think that one of the things that we're all grappling with And I'm hearing Mr. Nunn, and I'm hearing you all. And there are a number of elevations here. And the ground level isn't really clear to show us what sight lines will be like. Because I think that I see walls, and I see areas that are lower. And I think I understand how that's going to work. But I don't think it was really clear in the presentation. I don't think that the graphics of the presentation had the clarity to show what these things would be visible like from the two streets that are bounding the site. That's my comment.

Okay, fair enough. I'm going to make mine right after Laura makes hers.

Well, I do think the presentation was very clear what you're planning to do. And all the colored boxes really helped. But I'm still unclear as to how it really fits onto the site and the perimeter of the site, specifically from the Rosemary Street elevation. And I think that's south elevation in your plans. And I'm looking at the south elevation now just to try to judge how big the deck and the whole room underneath it are. It's not just the deck. There's a whole habitable space underneath it. That may be a generous term for it, but it is a room underneath it. So what was a deck now is a deck with a room underneath it, a big room. And from the south elevation, compared to the size of the house, it's not half as big, but it's pretty big. So for me, I just can't tell from Rosemary Street specifically what this is going to look like in terms of massing and proportion. It may just be great, but I can't tell it yet. And then the fence issue. I understand wanting to encompass the whole garden. I've done that myself. But a six-foot fence is a lot different than the height of a four-foot pool fence. And when it's right up on the property line with those other steps, it's big. So I guess I'm a little unclear exactly the scale of the new deck with the room underneath. And then the fence thing I think needs a little more improvement tonight, maybe.

OK, real quick, just my quick overview is I think the design is very well done. And it would meet, if you were getting historic tax credits, it would be National Park Service standards. And it definitely meets historic design guideline standards, as I understand them, as written. I think what I'm hearing is the issue is the lack of clarity on how big that mass is going to be because you're calling it a deck, but it is a big room, a big room being added in the back. So it would be nice to have some type of render from that direction.

Is that what I'm hearing?

And in terms of the fence, a six-foot fence one foot off the property line is... challenging but there's nothing we can say about it because it's allowed as long as you don't go higher than six feet and the materiality of it matches the historic design standards so that's kind of where we are with that can we we really can't say much about setback if it meets code correct OK. I'm looking to Josh because.

I mean, I think you can put fences in side yards and setbacks. That's allowable.

Correct. Yes, you can.

Yes, you can have a fence up to six feet in the interior setbacks and then four feet in the street setback.

Okay, so personally, I don't see any reason why this is not incongruous. It's getting late. But I feel some hesitation on the part of you guys. Do you guys want some more information before you make a ruling? Is that what I'm?

I certainly don't want to turn this down. I'm totally sympathetic with the idea of aging in place. And I think we all understand, because of that ramp, why the deck has to be approximately that size. But our job is just to make sure that it's not overwhelming from the street view. The aesthetics are as important as the materials. So could we come back and just have a clearer idea of exactly what that looks like from the street?

Well, I'll tell you what. I can tell you about jump out of your seat, literally. So I'm going to reopen the evidentiary portion of the hearing so you can jump up and say something real quick.

Thank you, thank you very much. I said it earlier, and I just, having been through a lot of historic district commission meetings, I wanna make sure we're following proper procedure. And I also wanna make sure that we can be sensitive to the information that's being brought here. You just brought up, hey, can more information be provided if it takes, My sense is it's possible that one of you may not feel you want to vote for this as being not incongruous tonight. And that would mean that this project I don't know if we can be seen again on it, and I don't want that to happen. I'd like to be able to provide.

Let me close the evidentiary hearing and ask the staff a question, and I'll be able to tell you, give you an answer.

Okay. And you know the gist of where I'm going. I mean, I'd rather provide you three-dimensional renderings than talk with the neighbor and get to a place where we can all be happy.

Yeah, that's exactly what we want to be. I appreciate that thought. I didn't mean to cut you off there. I just know that there's another group waiting to come in, and I want everybody to get their chance if possible. So I'm going to close. Again, the evidentiary portion of the hearing. Hey, Anna Scott, Charneco, when was this application put in?

We received a complete application on August 7th.

Oh, so it was just put in.

There's time.

OK, so we've got time.

About a month ago.

Do you want me to make a motion for a continue? Yeah.

OK, I'm going to struggle.

Well, I really don't need that, because my motion's for continuance.

I'm going to make a motion that we continue this item to the next.

I'm assuming we have room on the agenda.

to the next meeting, which is next month, correct?

Yes, it's in October. I don't know the date off the top of my head.

OK, but as long as there's space in the agenda. OK. I'm going to make a motion to continue 712. I'm sorry, wrong one.

Like I said, it's getting late. 204.

204, thank you. 204 Glen Burnie, to continue 204 Glen Burnie until the next session, at which time we'd like to see a little bit more information, specifically some type of render. from the from the south and the east sides and in the meantime take take this as an opportunity maybe to we can't dictate this but talk to your neighbors a little bit and come back with anything else you may have if you want to make any adjustments but so I just let me try again I talked right past myself if you want to include the date it's October 13th October 13th. Okay. I'd like to propose a continuance to the October 13th meeting for 204 Glen Burnie Street and asking them to present some rendering information from the south and or east elevations.

Is there a second? I second that.

Okay. All in favor of that continuance, please say aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed? Okay. And sorry, guys, but there's going to be a continuance.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I mean, thank you for your time. I get it. Thank you.

Mr. Nunn, can you sign in since you provided testimony?

I see the clock.

Laura, I want to ask both of you, does either of you by any chance go home via Estes Drive? Do you need a ride? Yeah, I can't drive because of my surgery, but I'll just call a car.

Ask Don. Don may be going up Martin Luther King.

But Don may have COVID or something.

Okay, while they're getting the technical stuff in order.

That's okay. I'll get you all good.

I'm going to open the evidentiary portion of the hearing for 132 South Columbia Street. So to start that, are there any conflicts, ex parte communications? No conflicts have been noted. Sorry, I just wanted to get that out of the way.

So do we state our names? Is that how this goes?

I am going to read you an affirmation. And then if you can follow by saying, I affirm and state your name, even though we know your names. OK. I affirm that the evidence I shall give to the Historic District Commission and the referenced application shall be the truth and nothing but the truth. I so affirm.

I affirm, Cal Fadum. I affirm, Exella Hull.

Very good. Thank you. OK. The floor is yours.

All right, thank you, board members, for getting us in under the wire here. I'm here on behalf of my design team. My name is Cal Fadum. I'm a licensed architect and a UNC graduate. I'm here with my design team, our president, Paul Young, Elizabeth Hartley from Barnhill Building Group, and town and university luminary, Scott Smith. We're here to present tonight Renovations to the DK e Delta Kappa Epsilon fraternity house You may recall that we were here one year ago, and we presented what will be substantially similar plans we completed the first phase of our of this project which was primarily interiors and we're here tonight to present um updated an updated scheme for the exterior so without further ado lifelong chapel hill resident and architectural designer zell hall all right so we're in the camera mccauley historic district and the house sits at the corner of columbia street and cameron avenue

The front of the original house faces Columbia and it's a three-story colonial revival house which was first constructed in 1925 and then later rebuilt in 1970 due to a house fire. The three-story building was later added upon with an addition of a two-story cafeteria and bedroom wing on the back of the building connected by a two-story hyphen. The house later had a full interior renovation in the early 2000s, during which a covered single-story entryway was added above the stairs down to the basement. The entryway sits between the main building and the addition and in front of the hyphen connector. The two-story addition has a cafeteria, which is situated on the lower level. As the fraternity has grown over the years, the cafeteria can no longer serve their larger student population. It can only accommodate about half of them at any given time. Because of this, DKE has asked us to design an addition of a covered patio, which would create more seating space adjacent to the cafeteria. They would also like to create a second story deck above the addition with access from their new study lounge. Along with a reposed covered patio, DKE would also like to convert their existing outdoor seating area into a new fire pit and grill area equipped with benches. The fraternity would also like to build additional second story bedrooms above the basement stairwell entry, And back in the cafeteria, the attorney would like to remove a now redundant entry door and revert it back to a window as it was originally designed. And finally, due to the covered patio addition, we will also need to reconfigure ADA parking on the site. So as you can see here on the site plan, the addition is located on the side of the building towards the back in the lighter gray. Yeah, but we can also see the proposed fire pit area as well as the relocated ADA space and the accessible route as means of egress from the building. And that's highlighted by the dash line and arrows towards the bottom left of the site plan. So this is our proposed design for the additions to the house. You can see the new covered patio and the addition of the two bedrooms above the basement stairwell. The fire pit area is also visible here. So I'll start with the covered patio addition, which extends out 14 feet from the existing building and is inset by one foot as well. For the addition, we are aiming to complement the existing cornice design on the balconies, but we'll also introduce new column designs and utilize larger column pedestals. This creates a harmony with the existing building while also discerning it as an addition separate from the original house. This technique of differentiating the columns is found throughout the houses in Little Frat Court and in the Main Frat Court. So we will locate our new doorways and the existing window openings in an effort to retain as much existing brickwork as possible. The patio addition will be minimally tied into the existing building to the extent that the structure allows as well. And we'll also retain all of the existing soldier coursing throughout the addition. New materials used in the addition will borrow features from the existing house and surrounding properties. Door and window details will be consistent with existing details and new molding and trim will also match the existing building. In terms of site work, the patio addition will be built out at a similar offset from the building as the existing balcony and we will also not touch any of the existing stone walls during construction and only alter the site for ADA compliance. So in this same area, we have also designed a second story deck above the patio addition, and it will be accessible from the new study lounge upstairs. The new balcony will have railings to match the existing conditions around the building. We will also need to replace the existing railings on the balcony pictured here. They are deteriorating, and the fraternity says they need to be replaced due to safety concerns. The materials will be replaced to match the existing balcony details. So in the area adjacent to the proposed patio addition, the fraternity would also like to construct a new fire pit area. The new fire pit and benches will be located in an area on the site which has been traditionally used for seating. And in an effort to further incorporate the fire pit and seating area back into the house, we will construct it in the same materials used in the patio addition. We'll be using composite materials as a purely wooden construction would have some problems in a fraternity setting. And so moving into the area above the stairwell entry, we're adding an additional second story bedrooms in the space above the stairwell. These will offset the loss of the two bedrooms which we converted into the study lounge last year. In this addition, we will need to alter the existing roof form. And our solution to this is to tie the new roof into the existing roof only on the cafeteria slash bedroom addition. And we won't disturb any of the built-in gutters on the original three-story house. We've designed the low pitch roof to minimize impact on the original building. However, due to the low pitch, we'll need to use a standing seam metal roof, but this material is consistent with other properties in our historic districts, such as the Carolina Inn. We will also aim to match the existing details, such as the molding and trim on the existing two story addition. And in the bedroom addition, we will install new doors and windows which aim to match the existing conditions of the stairwell connector. Doors and windows will be constructed with hollow metal frames and painted to match the existing white color. And the new windows in the bedrooms will utilize grid between glass muntins, but that's the case for the windows already on the existing addition. And so going back to the area near the proposed patio addition, there's a door and stairs into the cafeteria space which you can see here and they're no longer needed for our egress purposes. The fraternity would like to remove the non-street facing door and replace it with a window as it was originally designed. The new window will match the existing adjacent windows as closely as possible. And finally, we'll need to reconfigure the ADA parking on site. The covered patio addition will occupy the existing space so it needs to be relocated. In terms of accessibility on the site, we're relocating the ADA parking to a similar area, which also happens to be pretty much the only suitable location at the site. The accessible route to and from the parking space will be located in a similar area as well, and it'll be partially screened from the street view through use of vegetation. So to conclude, this is our area of work on the site. We're minimally impacting the original three-story building. Doesn't show up too well. But yeah. So this is our proposed design. And we don't think that it's incongruous with the rest of the house or surrounding properties. And it's consistent with other frat houses nearby the DKE house. And so with that, I'd like to open up to any questions you all might have.

And we might all be architects here, but for the record, new work here is shown in bold and existing in gray.

Anybody want to jump in?

I have a question about the fire pit. Is it wood-burning or gas-powered?

We are planning a gas line, a permanent gas line.

Thank you.

Can you go back to the roof plan that you showed us at the very beginning?

Are you talking about the site plan? Because this roof is not consistent with our proposed roof. I have a better view of the actual roof itself.

Well, that should be that right there. This is way more accurate than the other. Yeah, there you go. Trying to make sure.

My only concern is lighting, because this is right across from a very important historic building. And in one of your renders, you could look up underneath that deck on the left side there. And it looked like something was hanging down. Have you guys talked about what kind of lighting you're going to use underneath these deck areas?

Everything will be recessed, can lights.

That's the right answer. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't any surface-mounted light that was going to throw bright, nasty lights over to the Carolina Inn. Okay. And you don't have any lighting proposed in the corners or spotlights or anything like that?

Not at this time. Okay.

That's a good thing. Questions? I do have a, this is probably more of a, conversation I guess to have my fellow Commissioner but I'm just curious the two dormers I'll call them I was about to call them dog houses sorry the two dormers that you have on the top there are they actually bringing light down into that space

Yes, actually I believe we arrived at the term monitors last time. Okay. But yes, they will be actual dormers that let light into the interior.

Okay, but more importantly at night, when someone's in that room or in that space, light's gonna go up and come through those.

Yes, sir, just as the existing dormers in the house already accomplish the same thing.

It's just important for them to be functional, so you answered my question, thank you. Yes. Is there anyone from the public that has anything to say? That would be a no. You guys have any more questions? If not, we'll close the evidentiary hearing. Thank you. Now we'll have discussion. Discuss away.

Seems really well thought out. I mean, a lot of detail.

Yeah, I really, I like what you guys have done. I like the new composition. And when you compare what you're doing to what is there now, it's a definite step up.

Yes, it is definitely a step up.

So thank you for that. And as we discussed once before, you pushed back that second story addition to define that as an addition. There again, that contemporary compatible thing. So we appreciate that as well. Any comments?

I'm ready to make a motion.

We've closed the evidentiary here. You can make a motion if you like.

All right. I move that the application is not incongruous with the special character of the historic district according to the application of the relevant provisions of LUMO and the HDC's design standards based on the facts presented in the record this evening.

I will second that motion. Okay, all in favor? Aye. All opposed? Okay, got your COA. Thank you. That was a very good presentation. Thank you very much. Very clear. Okay, now we have another item on the agenda.

We have two items, Don. If you all vote to continue the legal training, could you vote on the rules of procedure update tonight?

Well, that's what I was going to say. We would like to continue Kevin's presentation to the next meeting. Do we have to vote on that? It's not an evidentiary hearing. OK. OK. So we're going to control the agenda and continue that piece. And so you'd not think I rude. I've already talked to Kevin about it before. So I'm not cutting his legs out from under him.

What I will say is you all have the training presentation. So between now and then, if you have questions or there's anything you'd like to discuss, feel free to call me and we can talk offline. Hopefully I can answer your questions independently.

I can't be here next time. I have to be in Virginia for business. But I do have a couple of questions about that document, which I'll send you as soon as I can see to read.

Yeah, not a problem. Just shoot me an email and I'd be happy to schedule something.

I'm still learning.

And when you send them the email with those questions, could you copy us? Because I'd be curious of what your questions are. That'd be awesome. Thank you.

I'll just say, for what it's worth, there are other questions. Feel free to send them to me ahead of time. And that way, I can try to cover them all and make sure that they're all answered for the entire commission when we do the presentation next month. And obviously, if you're going to be absent, Sandra, we'll make sure that we have an opportunity to speak, and I can fill you in on.

We can't just answer them all at the same time, so.

Yeah.

OK, thank you.

OK, so the second item was the rules of procedure, the revised rules of procedure. Do you want to just tell us real quick what the difference is?

Yeah, so staff just proposed a minor change to the rules or procedures that affect how we prepare the minutes. So if you've noticed, the last few minutes have been less detailed than what we've done before. And we're trying to take a similar approach as the Board of Adjustment and just do action minutes. So that's what the change states.

I don't see anything shocking or earth shattering here. So we need to make a motion and second it on approving these revised rules of procedure?

Yes.

OK.

I move that we approve the revised rules of procedure for the historic Chapel Hill Historic District Commission.

I second that.

Okay, all in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed? There you go. We have revised rules of procedure. So if that's it, we're going to adjourn. Thank you.