Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right, we should be all set. Okay, welcome everybody to Planning Commission Centerville, Utah for April 8th, 2026. Um, we have everybody here except for Commissioners Patterson and Jenkins. Nope. And I'm right here. Not Patter. Not Patter. And she is here. Excellent. We only are missing Commissioner Jenkins. Goodness gracious. Sorry about that. Down here.

Um we are going to start with a quick legislative prayer and thought and then we'll stand for the pledge of allegiance. So, the the thought that I um things I've been thinking about this this week um has to do with the importance of of local government as compared to I read a study that said nearly threearters of Americans do not trust the federal government and um about with the let me read that again threequarters of Americans trust their local governments and and only about a third of the people can can trust the uh the legislative branch of the United States. So, as I thought about that, I thought, you know, that's a kind of a telling thing. we have we have a real distrust of what's going on in in the uh Washington DC but in our local government where we can be more involved where we feel like we can have some input where we know the people that are um in the government in our in our local community. we feel more comfortable and we feel like we can have a say and we feel like we can participate and hopefully that's the way we feel in Centerville that um there is a um a feeling that we can have a say and we can we can participate and make a difference by by coming to meetings and by um putting forth things that we think need to happen in our community. And hopefully um the people on the planning commission and on the city council are listening to the things that the citizens are saying so that um so that we feel like we are a part of what's happening and I feel like that's a really important thing. So that was my thought. Um and now I'll offer a quick prayer. Our dear heavenly father, we're grateful for the opportunity to gather together

in this planning commission meeting. We're grateful for the opportunity to participate and to um have our voices heard. We pray that thy spirit will be with us and with those that present tonight that we will understand and communicate with one another and make good decisions. And we pray for these blessings in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Amen. I aliance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

All right. Conditional uses. My fave. Actually, I do. I I like them. So, um, Mr. Miss Dis, what are we doing? There you go. Fire away.

All right. So, the applicant, Alex, and the business owner, Jada. Correct. Awesome. Jada has submitted a request for a conditional use permit to establish a dog daycare that includes the dog daycare, boarding, pet spa, cat boarding, and other uh pet taxi services. The business is categorized as a kennel. This is required in the conditional use permit for the industrial high zone which this property is located. At this time, we have not had any feedback from the public um even though a notice was posted on site and sent out to the required parties. The code requirements for a conditional use permit is number one. Will the proposed use be detrimental to the health, safety, and general welfare of persons residing or working in the vicinity or injurous to the property or improvements of the vicinity? Uh staff's comment is no, it will not be. Um something to note is that within the city limits, there is a buffering requirement between industrial zones and residential zones. Um, so while this is at the edge of Centerville, the southern side, um, the residential properties are in West Bountiful. Um, but with that being said, the requirements for the residential properties buffering that are met even though they are not technically required. Um, so that would include a 30 foot um, buffering zone. They have 33 feet distance from the rearmost portion of the building to the city limits. So that meets that one. Um

the other one is a architectural buffer. Uh there is a 6ft white vinyl fence. So that meets the architectural buffer. And then the other one which is slightly off um but it is an architecture buffer consists of solid white fencing. If so, um reducing the noise barrier. Such landscaping shall consist of at least one tree for every 200 ft of fencing. Um there has been three trees planted on the property and about a 4ft strip of grass. The only reason why we all I say however is because it is the certain tree material that um is typically required. So I think it is a can't remember what type it was, but it was a specific type of tree. If it was um evergreen, that's what it was. It was an evergreen tree that's typically required. Um the trees planted on there are not evergreen trees, but that's just something to note and keep in mind. The trees are still built out to their full growth and it it creates a really nice buffer in my opinion. Um, next is code requirement number two. Is the proposed use of the particular location necessary or desirable to provide a service or facility width which will contri contribute to the general well-being of the neighborhood and the community? Um, staff response is yes. Code requirement number three, does the proposed use comply with the regulations and conditions specifically spec spec specified in the title for such use? Yes. Um I do just want to call out item number eight, which is the safeguards provided for or proposed to prevent noxious or offensive emissions

such as noise, glare, dust, poll pollutants, and odors. Um odors was really the only one that I could foresee um being a possible issue. So my response to that is regular removal or disposal of animal waste will be required as part of the conditions of approval. Uh and then finally code number four the proposed use will comply with the applicable provisions of the general plan. Um both for the current and the proposed general plan they do meet that. Um, so in summary, based on this analysis, staff finds that the proposed use is appropriate for the location and recommends approval of the conditional use permit with the applicable conditions listed below.

Thank you very much. Um, so I'll take it back to the commission. Questions for staff. Um, I can start with a couple of mine. Um, I'm just wondering, um, tell me a little bit more about the six foot and why it was chosen to be six and not perhaps something as a buffering element. Don't they get to use something higher? You know what, that was just what was in the code.

Um, that was what was spelled out in the code. My guess is that that 6 foot fence um, anything higher would require the planning commission to come back to. Um the zoning administrator can approve up to 8 ft tall when it is abuing a residential zone but you know at the time when the subdivision went in that was one of the requirements was six foot fence. Yeah no worries. I just wanted to know if there if it if it was the default or if there was a particular reason

default. Um and then um I am concerned about the language in uh nine uh where it says or other additional items. It seems really broad for me. I would say that maybe we should be considering at the approval stage something more targeted. Can we please go to that on screen? Well, I'm I'm jumping the gun, frankly. I I ought to be waiting for this till later. Okay. But well, you mentioned it, so let's do it.

So it it reads as any pet waste, garbage, and other uh sorry or additional items created by way of conducting business shall be removed nightly. The or additional items. I I don't even know what that's supposed to be. So I would say something like pet waste, garbage, and other similar refues. Okay. Anyways, I jumped the gun on that one. So more questions for staff, guys. I do. Go ahead.

So, back to your fence. Um, I saw number 10 in the email planners where it talks about the fence and it says that the the Houndstown requires an 8oot fence, but back to the city is six. And in there it says eliminate um if we can go to that. Let's see. Number 10. So, I'm going down. It's under the email planner. So, I don't know if it's this one. No, go down. Oh, exhibit. Oh, right. Keep going. Exhibity right there. Number 10.

So, the hounds dog hounds town requires the 8 foot and then so anyway, it says so it looks like we'll have to eliminate that. Who is speaking? who is speaking when it's no sorry.

So um with that the number 10 that was my communication with the um applicant at the time and what I was letting them know was hey we can only allow for up to 6 ft tall and then they came back and said for like an outdoor play area for the dogs they need to have at least 8 ft tall. So what they were saying was, "Okay, we're fine with the six foot. We'll just eliminate that outdoor play area because we cannot accommodate an 8t tall one." We cannot accommodate an 8. Why can we one at a time guys for the record?

So okay. So I'll ask again um or to clarify. I know you want to talk. I know you have good things to say but not soon. um we cannot accommodate it or they cannot the lease for the lease they if they do come back. So so if they want to have an 8 ft tall fence there is an additional application that is required for it. They have to get a height variance for this and then at that time that is what they would have to do. So currently right now no they cannot get that. If they want to come back and get one then they can come back and get one. They have to apply for it. Yes. Okay, that is helpful to me. And that will give them more Can I jump in on that one point?

Yes. So I I was just thinking and looking it up. If it's used as a buffering element, Mhm. Um the zoning administrator can approve it as a permitted use. Is it a So and which is which is kind of what I hinted at at the beginning, but not on the sides. So that's what that's where it's it's a budding. It's not technically a residential property. So even though I am noting in here, hey the buffering element is a 6 foot tall, we're not we don't we don't buffer between like the city boundaries and another adjacent property. So technically the zoning administrator cannot administer that. Got it.

It's a little bit complicated. So thanks for asking those questions and teasing it out. Mason, could I get a clarification on one thing and now is Houndstown leasing the entire building? Okay. So, it's the entire building. Yes. Okay. Because you get a little as a tenant, you have one issue of problem is versus being the owner and being able to do certain things. Tenants have a little different problem. Well, they are not the property owners, but they are the only business in that Yes. building. Okay. Additional question. But we don't have the property owner here.

No. Okay. All right. So, one additional question. Go ahead. Uh, just a logistical question. Is the current use for that building defunct? Like, is there not currently a a tenant or is there a tenant currently in the building? There is not currently a tenant. Do we have a map of the current property? Yeah, there is. Yeah, I I just want to pull it up. Do you want me to pull it up like a an aerial or or like a like a Google? They they didn't include a floor plan. same thing. Do do you want like a a visual of the property or do you want like a Google

Google Street if I did a little research, but I just want to see it. But I just want to make sure I have the right How long has it been vacant? I'm not sure. Okay. Maybe that's not relevant. Okay, that's what I was thinking. What's that one behind the semi? Behind the truck. That works well, doesn't it? Okay.

Very industrial. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. you said. Okay. Um let's move it forward in the process. So this is where the applicant uh can come up to the podium. Who's going to speak today? Excellent. So if you'll come up to the podium, state your name and your role and then I'll I'll I want to explain a little bit about the conditional process and the decisions. Okay. So go ahead. Um my name is Jada Gettis and I will be the owner.

Excellent. Welcome, Jada. Um, this is exciting. Um, conditional uses are here to decide whether or not um, there's any detrimental impacts and whether or not they can be substantially mitigated. You don't have to convince us that this is whether or not this is a good idea. I think most of our questions are going to be localized on any sound, odor, uh, those kind of things. Okay.

So, but before we ask you questions, what would you like to tell us about the business? Um, so Houndstown is a fully interactive doggy daycare and boarding facility that will offer our community pups opportunity to interact in a structured natural pack environment where instead of just all being in one play group like a lot of the competitors, they will be separated into different play groups based on size, temperament, and energy levels. And this naturally creates a calmer environment, a quieter environment, um, and also prioritizes the safety of the dogs and yeah.

Okay. Um, who has questions for the applicant? I've I've got some I can start with. You guys okay? I don't know. I have a list. I know. So, um, you heard us talk about the six-foot fence and the conversations that you had earlier. Mhm. Um it it sounds like I was I was reading through the packet and further down in the presentation materials it talked about how this was intended to be an indoor outdoor. What what's the status on that? Um so we have the option for with the franchise we have the option for an outdoor play area but we are not planning on having an outdoor area just because in Utah with the weather it's not it wouldn't

that work very well. Yeah. didn't have the dogs out there for long periods of time in the extreme heat and the extreme cold. And it would also it's hard with the neighboring properties. It'd be difficult to keep the noise down out there. So, yeah, I don't think we're I don't think we're going to do an outdoor strictly as a So, hold on, pause. Because we have to keep everything on the record, it doesn't pick up very well. if you want to come and talk at the podium and say your name and your role.

Yeah, I'm Alex. Um I'm just step dad helping them go through this process. Uh the 8oot fence is just strictly there as a safety precaution for animals so they can't get up on top of it. Um when the city came back and said that, you know, the six foot was a limit, it was very easy to say, well, we just don't need to have this anyway. So that's it. And the franchise is okay with you not doing an outdoor park? Yes. Okay. Okay. Well, you certainly have options if you want to come back and ask for an 8ft fence as you heard.

You've got options. Um and then the the waste and uh you know kind of odors that could potentially come from this and then also um pests that could be drawn to the air waste. Tell us about how that's managed.

Yeah, so um waste management is a top priority with the franchise. So they we will have strict protocols in place for cleanliness and um also noise. Um so waste will be picked up immediately throughout the day so it won't be left to accumulate and sit um which would attract pests. And it is put into leakproof sealed contain well it's bagged and then put into leak proof sealed containers lined containers um in designated areas away from public access and then it is it will be picked up by commercial waste disposable or disposal regularly. I think uh most franchises do once to twice a week, but that's also flexible. If we run into problems or um there's concerns, that can definitely be increased.

And that's not a a a problem. What I what I wanted to get at is one of the conditions that um we've been presented with as an option is to is to compel you to have it removed nightly. How feasible is that? Um, we would have to talk to the franchise about that, I think. But sorry, I I think personally we could make that happen. It's just a matter of bagging it and removing it off the site.

Yeah, but where would you put it? Because if you just remove it, take it home, that that just puts the pest problem somewhere else, right? Um we're in talks with the sewer district. We'd have a chat with them to see what they want. Um if you guys make a suggestion on that, we can look at that as well. Right. Our role here is just to identify it and then find out if it's possible to mitigate. We're not we're not here to tell you how to do it if that makes sense.

Um I just want to make sure that I'm we're identifying things because as if you read in the packet, one of the conditions that is suggested for us to consider is nightly removal. I just don't know exactly how that would work. I was I was concerned, frankly, that I don't know if nightly removal makes sense. If you're just bagging it and taking it to your home and waiting for somebody to come pick it up every week, that just moves the pest problem somewhere else. So, it sounds like you've got it in leak proof containers. It's bagged. Tell me about the weekly or bi-weekly removal. Where do they take it? How do they take it? I uh just commercial dumpster.

Okay. um with all the other franchises and locations. Um that's been sufficient. Um if that's not for this, then we can look at other options as well. Can I ask how many dogs do you intend to have? Um most locations, new locations start with less than 10 and then the higher per performing ones usually around 30 to 40 I think is what they said. Sometimes um at on when they have like events sometimes they get up to a hundred but not all at one time just throughout the day as a total. Okay.

Thank you. Additional questions. Yeah. Um just to make a comment following up on what you said to me daily seems unreasonable. Like how I just don't think that's possible. I don't know how that I don't know how that could be accomplished at all. And we have garbage pick up once a week. Yeah. Optimally, yes. But if it's like you talked about, bagged and then you want to take it home to your house. One one commissioner at a time, guys. But then if you're you're bagging it and then you're putting it inside another bag, right, prior to it going out to the dumpster. So essentially, it's double bagged. Am I clear on that? Yes. Is that accurate? In a container. Yes. In a container.

Bagged and contained. Yes. So, it's bagged and then contained and then that container is put in the trash, right? Okay. Um, I did have a question about the quantity of animals. She asked that, you answered it. Um, and do you have are they you're not, from what I read, you're not necessarily kenneling overnight. It's more of a doggy daycare. There we will have boarding. They will be like rooms, not kennels. Um, and I think that in the beginning isn't going to get filled.

It it it's like an overnight suite type deal. Um, one of the things they've identified is kenneling dogs and other animals. Um, they don't like it and so they try to create a more comfortable environment for them. Is the option to stay overnight available? Yes. Is it utilized that often? Not very often. So, you have adequate space. I mean, is this in your contract? You have to have so much space per Yeah. Yeah. It'll be built out as a an additional play area or area in the in the building. Sorry. When you say other animals, are you intending to have other animals or are we just focusing on dogs? We will possibly do cat boarding or Oh, but dogs, cats. Yes.

Strictly to the Okay. Dogs and cats. Thank you for that conversation. Do you are you also going to be providing interior and I know this has nothing to do with this but I'm still asking it anyway. You know I am using my right to ask. So um interior cameras for owners uh not to they won't be live and they um because they've found that that can cause problems like people calling constantly like why is my dog not playing? Why is my dog resting? And so then we would have to have some an additional employee to be at the front by the family nest.

Yeah. So we will have cameras and if there are incidents we will be able to review those but it will be live streamed for customers. the the update portion of that will be um they post pictures of the animals on a Facebook page um or whatever social media page it is. We take our dog to the one in Vegas quite a bit. It's pretty funny to see her just a great time, but

she's chilling. Okay. All right. So, thank you for answering that. So, if you're not going to have an outdoor play area, um are you going to I mean, there's probably no need, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. Are you going to have any sort of lights installed out there? I'm just worried about light pollution to anybody around you. Like if you choose to have an outdoor area later. I don't know. No, I think business hours or uh what time do they open and close? It'll be 7 to 7. That might be adjusted based on the community. I'm just trying to think of the other locations we've been to and nobody has outdoor lighting other than parking lot lights.

Any other locations you've been to have about 30 animals at a time? Um, yeah, the Denver the Denver location is Okay. So, not 100. No, I've never been to one that has 100. Okay. So, about 30 on average. Yeah. That's And that's also years after they've been open. Cool. Those ones have been open for two to three years once they're established. Yeah. the ones that have been open for a year or under half to 20. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I'm done with my questions. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. What else, guys? I don't want to sound like a broken record, but I do want to ask one more time on this vein of how many uh potential animals you'll have on site. Do you have a planned capacity?

Yes. What's going to be built for your site? How much would that be? Um, they gave me an equation. No, I'm gonna have to find it. Um, but there's a certain square foot requirement per animal. Um, and I believe based on this building of approximately what, 4600 square feet? I think it's closer to 6,000. Oh, is it? Um, there is a limitation. You can't just jam a bunch of dogs and and just keep them coming. Um, that's not very good for anybody. And you strictly want to do dogs, correct?

Or does it matter? Yeah, dogs. And then we'll offer catboarding. But I don't think that other locations with catboarding get cats often. It's just it doesn't take up much room because they just need like a cat tree, one of those little Mhm. cage cat trees and that doesn't take up much room. Whereas dogs have kennels and whatnot. Yeah. So then just the community has the option if someone doesn't like or doesn't have someone to come watch their cat for them, they can board them. But I don't think that'll be utilized very often. I think cats are so easy people don't really need have the need for the cat boarding. But there are some locations that have regular cats.

Let me find that and I'll get back to you on Okay. Um while while you're looking for that one other question kind of along that vein, uh a note that was made in the staff report was regarding uh traffic, how many cars you might be seeing. Uh, it didn't give an exact number and I'm just curious if either Houndstown or yourselves have an idea of about how many daily visitations are you expecting?

Um, I it just depends on how many dogs we're having come in, but the traffic shouldn't it's shouldn't be an issue because it's it's just pick up or drop off and pick up and those times are staggered. So, it's kind of similar to a human daycare where they're just going in, dropping off, coming, picking up, and there's I don't think it'll contribute to the traffic too much. I think the the main reason for my question there is just recognizing some of the constraints to get to the freeway on that west side.

A lot of those folks will be coming through Parish Lane. Uh, and so particularly if we're seeing a lot that are coming during that commuting time period, the, you know, 7 to 9:00 a.m. or 4 to 6 p.m. when you'd be seeing that typical drop off and pick up right before and after work. That's more where that question's coming from is, yeah, are we going to be worrying about that potentially adding to folks that are going to and from the freeway along this west side? I I don't think it will be.

I don't believe so. Um, in our experience as people that have gone and utilized other locations, um, we haven't seen any backup or traffic problems as it is very staggered. Unlike going to like an elementary school where you just stuck in a big line and going crazy. You're not expecting you're going to have all 30 pets dropped off between 7 and 8. There's no set time, okay?

You know, if someone wants to go to yoga, bring their dog over, have that at noon or whatever. Um, so no, there's not any issues like that. Um, back to the occupancy. Um, this gives the example of a 6,000 square foot building minus 1,000 of unusable space. Um, so the equation is 45 square feet per that gives 112 max capacity. Wow. Okay. Um, I don't anticipate that happening as people are taking and dropping off continually through the day. um she's more familiar with what's actually going to be in there. Um as far as our dog is concerned, I've never seen

crazy amounts of dogs everywhere. And and based on the um the drawings that we're seeing in some of these slides in the packet, it seems like uh you have to have dedicated kennel space. So that also limits how many you could have at any given time. And you kind of have to plan ahead for those numbers. I think that's part of the thousand square feet of unusable. How many candles do you have? I think for that space they said around the the design on it hasn't been finished because we don't have a lease in place yet. Okay. Um it's just contingent upon this approval. Okay. Um the ones we've been to have about eight. Is it 8 to 10? Wait. Boarding rooms. Yeah. No. No.

It's around uh for this size it would be around 35. Oh 35. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. About 35 to 40. Yeah, that's what we were seeing in the sample. Yeah, she knows what she's doing. I'll let her down. Thank you. All right, my question. Any other questions about um detrimental conditions? Nope. Make a motion. Okay, I'll bring it back to the commission. We're we're going to deliberate and maybe ask some questions of staff. So, oh, and we'll also open it up to the public. Sorry, we'll do that first. Go ahead and have a seat. Thank you. Thank you.

Um, so if any members of the public have any comments, come to the podium. Only guy here, Kyle Green, Senville resident. I think it's a great idea to have somewhere local for local dogs to go. Um, I think most of the concerns that I would address as a neighbor would be noise and smell. And I think they've adequately

described how they deal with that. I was interested as a general contractor listening to something like this is a great use of space, especially in that area of town. A good way to help with revenue in the city as well. I think it's a probably long overdue that we have something like this in our community. Um, I appreciate the thorowness of the of the planning commission going into those questions and concerns and animal health. I think when you address the one thing at the very beginning about other items, I would imagine that'd be things like that they're using for pet care, um, bandages or something like that if necessary. But I think it sounds like a pretty good idea. I think I I we've got dogs. I've never liked the idea of the traditional boarding kennel where you just go put them in a a chain link box and a cement floor. This sounds like a lot better option. So there you go.

Now you at least have one public comment. Thank you. Perfect. Thanks. All right. Any other members of the public? Seeing none, I'm going to close the public hearing and bring it back to uh the the planning commission. I just had a question, Sydney, for you. The nightly seems like a reasonable uh in uh suggestion. I'm curious if you had the what was your thought process on the nightly and whether or not if we went bi-weekly or weekly. What are your thoughts there?

So, I don't think I articulated myself very well apparently in this because any pet waste removed nightly and then garbage or additional items created. Um, I was thinking more like let's say there's a chewed- up dog toy in the front yard or there is a leash. Um, we have a similar type of business that is located right next door to the public works um, building and these were actually some of their conditions. So, I ripped off of some of their conditions. Um, no worries. And so, you're thinking more like removed nightly is that it's collected together and picked up.

Put inside. Contained inside. I see. So, I don't walk on the grass. Yes. Oh, I see what you're saying. So, yeah, you just didn't want dog waste left on the property around. Yeah, they need to clean up after the dogs every day. Ideal. Perfect. Yeah, that's a way different thing. Sure.

Clean up. I'm thinking and my my um approach came from the framework of having I went through an incident where um an individual who was housing uh pigs was creating, you know, rat infestations and cockroach cockroach infestations in the city in the residential area. And so I I just want to make sure that the pet waste is contained. And it sounds like they've done a pretty good job of articulating that. I just wanted to make sure that and I I like your perspective. I hadn't thought of it that way. Yeah, that makes sense though. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So, um my my other question is uh to staff and maybe this is for you, Lisa. Um number three, it talks about um applicable local, state, and federal rules concerning conditional use per and kennel regulation. Um, I just want to also make sure, do you do you feel like that's enough to say um that it's they're going to be abiding by nuisance ordinances because I think that so long as they're in compliance with nuisance ordinances, they they ought to be in compliance with any noise or noise or odor problems. Yeah, I think you would want to add that. Okay.

Because I think local, state, and federal rules is modified by conditional use permit and kennel regulation. Agreed. And so I I would say we we ought to articulate um why don't why don't Yeah.

Well, I I'm going to just modify this. Shall obey all applicable local, state, and federal rules as well as no and regulations, especially concerning conditional use permits, kennel regulation, and nuisances. Something like that. Something to think of. Um, I also uh wonder and and Sydney, this is back for you. I do want to make sure that they do not attract pests. Um, and this is I had an experience like a couple years ago. I was going through a McDonald's and the dumpsters, you know, you know, you've seen it where little things are coming in and

I just want to make sure that um they don't create conditions that attract pests. They're probably not going to anymore. But I think we ought to possibly articulate it. How can we say that? Well, just um they shall not create conditions or allow conditions that attract pests is what I was thinking. I was thinking down um in between 11. So just add 11. No. Well, sorry. In between what would become 11. So after nine um after the business shall not create or allow conditions that attract pests. Can we do that with chickens, too? Yes. I'm sorry, but can you imagine a chicken farming house? Yeah, let's

Well, actually, isn't that just a chicken farm? A chicken coop in my backyard. Okay, go ahead and finish that. So, anyways, that's our discussion. We have to allow the applicant to respond, but what other questions for staff do you guys have? I I don't know that it's a question for staff. It just needs it's a followup on number nine. Now that we understand what she meant, the verbiage needs to be changed on that. We should work. We'll do that in a minute. Okay.

Mason, aren't we just talking about on that one? And I think Sydney articulated it is the thing if there's anything outside, but even even bagging in waste items inside double containers and putting it out into the dumpsters on a daily basis. Is that what we're looking at? I as as I understand it, that's what I think was intended and from what the applicant told us, it sounds like that's going to be met, which and then I think with the others, if we're looking at odors and nuisances, I mean, that will become apparent over time, but hopefully that doesn't happen, right? Yeah, it's picked up weekly.

That was what we heard. So, um, any other questions for staff? So, um, I want to allow you an opportunity to respond either to the public comments or any of the questions that we've had, um, with staff. As an applicant, you have a right to to do that because once we move into deliberations, that's just for us to deliberate about. Do you have any anything else you want to tell us, clarify, etc. Well, I want to say thank you for your sharing your opinions on it and thank you guys for your time and consideration. Um, I just want to reiterate that waste management and cleanliness is our one of our top priorities. So, I don't foresee that being an issue. And because it's one of our top priorities, we are happy to make any changes that we need to make if what if our protocols that we are given through the franchise aren't working.

Um yeah. Can I can I ask you what um so with a focus on the framework of being as soon as the you know waste is on the ground what are your companies franchises protocols? Um they so we have people monitoring at all times and the protocol is to immediately go in and clean it up because it eliminates odors and um keeps it hygienic and also prevents the dogs from running through it. For sure. Yeah. And that includes bagging and then a leak proof container. Yes. And then where where do the leak proof containers go over the week? Yeah,

I think in the dumpster. Yeah, there should be a dumpster there somewhere. So, go outside to a dumpster. Yes. And picked up once a week. Yes. Okay. Excellent. Thank you. So, my question then is if you notice because we have hot summers, you'd mentioned Vegas before, so obviously they've figured out some way to mitigate the nasty odors in the heat. I just know what happens at my house, right? when it gets hotter then so if anything were to happen with that and you started noticing would you make changes?

Yes. Yeah, definitely. That's the good thing. The nice thing about it being a franchise is they have over a hundred locations now I think all over the country. So I mean they have experience with that like the high temperatures in Vegas and they know I they don't have complaints from tenants around them. Yeah, there actually I mean the Vegas location is known for smelling really good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's multiple Vegas locations and the ones we've been to smelled really good, which is your dumpster. Impressive for an any animal related business. Okay. I see the dumpster right there.

Yeah. Is that a home right behind it? Yes. Mhm. Looks like that's westbound. It's like a condo. So, mind you, this was back in 2019, just to keep that in mind. So, I don't know if that is the exact location of the dump. Do you know where the trash can is now? I'm not sure. Do you? Probably better. I'm I'm asking because if there's a way to move it away from the neighbor, I definitely think I think that that would be a better idea. I don't know what the rules and governance on that is. The sewer has to pick it up in the back. On the south side of the building, it is a loading dock. Mhm. Um I don't know if it can be put on this side be put on the street

or not. I don't I don't know all the rules about around that type of stuff. You guess stay there. Between the doors. Yeah. I'm just wondering closer if it could be, you know, between the doors on the building. Well, I don't want to micromanage too much. I think we just need to put a condition that they don't create a nuisance for the neighbors. Just things to think about. Okay. So, thank you so much. Thank you. We're going to now take it to the commission. Um, we've kind of deliberated along the way. Um, I have some ideas about how to modify the motion. Does anybody else want to give it a shot? Shall I? What do you No, I want to fix nine first. Okay. Well, yeah.

Okay. So, when she was talking about the cleanup of things, whatever the things are. So, how about something like daily perimeter cleared of pet debris or something? Because you're talking about daily cleaning and and I hope I'm on the same page, right? Just sort of I don't know how else you'd say it. In my mind, it would be, you know, daily perimeter because they're not going to, you know, somebody leaves, they're not going to immediately know that there's a leash out there or somebody dropped a collar. They're not going to know that. But they can do a daily sweep before the business closes. But like in the evenings or on the canal,

right? But I'm just suggesting that we add or change the verbiage on nine because as currently stated, it is not clear to what we discussed. Okay. Well, I'm thinking. Okay. Give him a minute. He's got to think. Any pet waste, garbage, or additional areas shall be removed nightly. How about something? Yes, please.

So, any pet waste, garbage, or additional items created by way of conducting the business shall be cleaned up. I was going to say nightly, but I like the daily. So, shall be cleaned up daily and removed from the site weekly or bi-weekly as necessary. Pet waste shall be bagged and contained in a sealed odorcontrolled container while on site. I love it 100%. There you go. That's great. Yeah, I wouldn't change it there. Great. That's what we were ready to say. That was really, really good. So great. That's why she gets paid the big bucks. Well, I'm practicing edit while talking. Got a girl. Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot. Good. Can we make a motion?

Well, then we And then you had the um changes I think the chair already has to three. Um, and if you I don't know about the definition of kennel because I thought kennel was limited to dogs. So maybe we should look up that definition. Otherwise, we would want to limit this to dogs and cats. I don't think we want to get into other Yeah. Well, they're not.

I think kennels are well, let's look at the definition. It's been a while. Um, and that the use shall not create or allow conditions that attract pets, pests, sorry. And then dumpsters, I don't know if you want to say dumpsters shall be located as far away as possible from the residential uses in terms, you know, as control that as possible for storage and pickup. So we don't want to argue about what's as far away as possible, but feasible, I guess, in terms of where is it safe and where is it able for the truck to come in and Yes. So it's already in the code that that says that what kennel or trash what?

Well, we can't have the dumpsters. We have to have the dumpsters where the sewer like where they'll pick it up. Yes, we have to have it where they'll but we can stay. Well, that's what I mean. As possible due to, you know, based on the feasibility. Sorry, I didn't see that definition. Establishment on three or more dogs. Okay. Yeah. So, sorry. You could do a text amendment. Establishment have text amendment on number three. Is that what dogs? No, I just mean it says a kennel by use. We define it as dogs. We don't you put three dogs in one kennel. Allow cats. I No, if you have three dogs. It's a It's a It's a cattle. If it's even for your home. It's not a cattle. It's a cat. But no cats.

Yes. is just suggesting a text amendment. So, we don't need a restriction on dogs and cats because they're limited to dogs right now. Text amendment. Okay. Interesting. And establish that means we have more dogs. Okay. Wow, this gets heavy. All right, I'll start. Go for it. Okay. Um, Lisa, I'm gonna incorporate by by reference, so be ready. Um, I hereby make a motion. Let me get over to that.

For the planning commission to approve the conditional use permit request from Alex Mil for a kennel business as located at parcel 06-196-201, hereby known as Houndsed Town located at 1323 West 50 South, which shall be required to fulfill the following conditions of approval. One, as in the staff report. Two, as in the staff report. three as read right now. The business operator shall obey all applicable local, state, federal and federal rules and regulations and this is new comma especially those going back to what's in the original concerning and then new nuisances and then going back to what's in the staff report conditional use permits and kennel regulation. Uh, four as written in the staff report, five is written in the staff report, six as written, seven as written, eight as written, and then nine, um, completely stricken and replaced with any pet waste, garbage, or additional items created by way of conducting the business shall be cleaned up daily and removed from the site weekly or bi-weekly as necessary. Pest pet waste shall be bagged and contained in a sealed odorcontrolled container while on site. And then an additional condition 10, the business shall not create or allow conditions that attract pests. And then 10 in the staff report reumbered to 11.

I second it. I second it. I think she was first. I mean maybe I mean because the sound was closer. I don't know. It doesn't like rock scissor it. Second. Thank you. Second it. Um, and then I have to say also s for the suggested reasons of action A through C in the staff report. Thank you, Mr. Eggot. And so I have a motion in a second. Any further deliberation? Okay, start here. I I I I I I that's unanimous. So if that wasn't a mush and a pass. Yeah, you can at least get the clarifications in the minutes, but in essence, it's pretty much everything that is in the staff report with a few tools. Best of luck.

So, yeah, I'm excited. This is cool. So excited for you guys. When are you going to open? Um, it depends on tomorrow is construction. How long construction takes? Probably I think most open to Oh, wow. Oh, really? Speed it up. Okay, let's move forward. Okay, move forward. Thanks you guys. Uh, number two on the agenda, public hearing on the zoning text amendments, deferral of public improvements. Okay, who's in? Who's leading out on us? Okay, Miss Dwise, please.

Um, so this was a little bit of a lengthy staff report. Um, so I trust that you guys have read this. Um, I'm going to leave it open for the planning commission for discussion. You will see in the staff report that staff has one stance on it and then we have made um a means of middle ground trying to work with the applicant as well as being aware what has historically been um hinted at as well as what could potentially be hinted at in the future. Um obviously as staff like our goals genuinely are to help out the public. It's not a staff against the public. Um, so when applicants come through, especially locals, I we we all try to accommodate them. So just keep that in mind with um how the staff report is written and following discussions from this. So the background, the applicant Kyle Green has applied for a zoning code text amendment proposal to CMC 10.04.170 04.170 deferral of public improvements, specifically subsection F. This subsection identifies applicant requirements that need to be met for deferral agreements to qualify for consideration by the city council. Um, in my staff report, I I just kind of kept on going through this. Um all staff members really had hands on hands in on this going from the GIS department, legal, public works, engineering, um it and and even uh police and fire. So it it was an all hands-on deck review of this. So the deferral of sidewalks is not the preferred outcome by staff. However, as part of evaluating the applicant's

request, staff has explored whether the an amendment to CMZ 10.04 04.170 could serve um some potential alternatives and that is seen in exhibit B just getting not exhibit B thank you to don't know how that one happened um stating um the general Code requirements for the zoning text amendment per CZC2.21.080 subsection E only the first factor really applies to the zoning code text amendment. This factor is whether the proposed zoning code or zoning map amendment is consistent with the goals, objectives and policies of the general plan. So, in the staff report, um, I hit on quite a few areas where it is supportive, where it can be seen as maybe not as supportive, but overall, both general plans really, really hit on safety, connectivity, um, and then as well as being sensitive to the neighborhood itself in a larger context. So something also to keep in mind, safety is not adverse to being um being aware of how the feeling of the neighborhood is. Whereas in the staff report, it might seem like it can either be safe or it can either be um this the city neighborhood feeling can be recognized. And I think that really what we've been trying to do is find a middle ground and find a way to to blend both

of them. Um, historically significant areas actually allude to having walkability and having safety aspects to them, especially as Centerville is growing. We just want to keep that. Just please keep that in mind when we are allowing for the option of deferring um public improvements such as sidewalk installation. Um I'm going to once again just kind of let this be a discussion amongst the planning commission. If you have any questions, I think me, Lisa, and Mike will be willing to answer these questions. um as well as our public works director Mike Carlson who has joined us tonight too to um answer any questions that the planning commission might have.

That's all. And does he have any uh points that he wants to make as staff at this time? Seeing a negative shaking head, we're going to go with no. And if we could so if you can hear from the applicant and maybe after that um we as staff I wouldn't mind explaining the thoughts behind our very lengthy edits um in response to that and why we went in that direction. Okay, that is fine with me.

So we will pivot to the applicants phase. Welcome back if you'll come to the microphone. State your name. Kyle Green, Centerville City resident um in the neighborhood concerning this text amendment. Um you'll note in the uh text amendment, it was a very simple uh addition to the existing code that I requested. Um, sorry I've got all these different documents here, but basically in section F, it allowed the city code in this particular section already allowed for deferrals on certain types of properties, namely single family homes or developments, but not subdivisions. Now the as this discussion has taken many years on subdivisions, it was set in place to prevent somebody from coming in like an Ivory Homes or Brighton Homes and doing a massive subdivision without sidewalks. In this particular case, the proper there was a property in our neighborhood that kind of sparked this debate again for our neighborhood and I drew the short straw being the presenter of that. Take this to the council and see if we can do something. Um generally my methodology is to take the um calm cool collected route before we get pitchforks and torches. And so that's why I presented this text amendment. Now that text amendment was a simple modification to allow for minor subdivisions of two lots or less in a residential low zoned neighborhood. This was after some discussion with um staff and others about how do we mitigate this kind of weird area where in my neighborhood we have parcels of ground that are

04 acres which historically would not have been divided into two because they were too small. But with changes of code and other things we can now have a lot that's 18 or

2 or whatever it is. And so all of a sudden you've got these small pieces of ground in neighborhoods that were previously kind of a one lot option um that are now two lot options. In this particular uh circumstance, the property that brought it to my attention is on 200 North and I believe is that six uh 600 East if I remember that's the correct I want to pull that up. um a family. This this was a piece of ground that was owned by a family that owned a bunch of property on 200 North. The um mother passed away and the ground was then given to the kids and held for several years. It was been used as a neighborhood garden for years um until they sold it recently to a family that would like to build two homes on it. Um the curiosity of it is is that in doing that it becomes a subdivision and the request of the city is to put in the improvements with a subdivision including a sidewalk. In our particular area, there are no sidewalks anywhere near to this property. So we would literally have a corner sidewalk to nowhere. um one end would deadend into a rock retaining wall. The other end dead ends into a tree.

So you would have a a section of sidewalk that that is relatively unusable and actually presents some safety concerns in of itself as people are having to climb over the curb, go across the park strip to enter the sidewalk to walk a little ways to then walk over the park strip, off the curb, and back into the road. It creates a bit of a a weird dilemma. So, the request was not to rubber stamp or give any other option other than to allow an applicant in this specific circumstance to plead their case before the city council for a deferral. Um, that was the initial intent of my text amendment. Um, in speaking with staff and going through many levels of this and doing much research, going back to having lived in this neighborhood for over 40 years, back to when they did the initial special improvement district, went through the notes of the 1992, 1993 discussions on this when it was changed from just asphalt roads to and dirt roads to asphalt with curb and gutter. But at that time sidewalks were suggested or um were wanted by the city and I think still would be wanted by the city but at that time they were not put in as part of the special improvement district. Not that that was I think that was the easiest methodology to move the project forward at that time. Um, at that point in time, only 17% of the affected residents said they would be open to the idea of sidewalks if it was financially feasible and um, and doable. as going through those notes and as noted in the staff report there at that time they did not do the sidewalks and many much of the landscaping that was put back in actually crosses across those easement planes with retaining

walls and other things some of which are actually large boulder walls, trees and many other things that would be pretty cost prohibitive to change to put sidewalk in at this time. Um, after talking with staff and going through it, um, I am in favor of the, uh, middle ground that has been discussed, I mean, I felt like my my text was pretty simplified. I think is being used as an opportunity to clarify a lot of code that has been a bit ambiguous and also to make some some adjustments to this section to better prepare applicants for their deferral, but also in the event that the city calls their deferral and says, "Hey, it's time to put them in." That they're more prepared when they've built their home for that improvement later. So that instead of putting retaining walls on it, instead of putting weird slope driveways in, that those driveways are being built with the sidewalk already placed in the driveway section, so it's ready to continue at any given time. I think staff has done a great job. Um, I think Lisa has done a very good job of studying through it and coming up with some options. I think one of the biggest ones that I think is a huge win for the city on this if it goes with the secondary option is there is a change um in 10.04170 04170 um section A says request for deferral in limited circumstances. Upon request of an applicant, the city may defer or wave their scratching or wave. I think this is big because before city council could wave wave the need to put those improvements in at a later date in time that would cause a an issue. Um I think this has been very well thought through. Um, I've read through it multiple times.

I feel like it fits the spirit of the idea of giving citizens, especially in older parts of Centerville, the opportunity to petition for a deferral, not rubber stamp them. I think it still gives the city a lot of strength and power to be able to say, "Yeah, this doesn't make sense to give a deferral in this case." Um, I know that Lisa, when we've discussed this, we came across quite a few things in there that were like, "Wait, it says what?" Um, and and I think I think we've really come to a a pretty solid middle ground and a scenario that helps old Centerville stay old Centerville, helps people that want to build homes in these older parts maintain the feel of the neighborhood. Um, that's one of the biggest concerns with my fellow neighbors is that we have a neighborhood that's set up one way and then all of a sudden we're just going to have this one piece of sidewalk in the middle. and it kind of prevents having that hopscotch. Um 100 South is a prime example. I don't know if you can pull up an aerial view really quick any of that, but you literally have one house with sidewalk, no sidewalk, house with sidewalk, no sidewalk, house with sidewalk, no sidewalk. Power pull

100%. Yeah, I can if we have a overlay on our GIS. Oh, sorry. No, just click that same map. Go back to that map and then just click sidewalks. Yeah, I think it show and it shows you the red is where there are no sidewalks and so maybe center street maybe it's on center street that does that

but you can see kind of the so I think staff has recommended a mapped overlay area that would be eligible the rest of the city would not be um to even be considered for a deferral again my my purpose in this was not to create a rubber stamp that just says oh yeah you go ahead and just build without sidewalks. I think the sidewalks do have a very important part in a neighborhood, but there are certain areas where common sense would say that doesn't make much sense to put one there. And so that's that's kind of the idea behind it. If there's any questions that the commission has they'd like to ask me about it, I I don't really have a dog in this fight. It's not my property other than our neighborhood generally has a consensus and feel much like the 1990s, early 90s of do we really need them? Um, and is it going to create more havoc setting it up that way? And what what's the purpose of having sidewalks to nowhere? Um, was kind of the the general consensus. And I think generally, if we're being honest, the fear that the city would say, well, if there's this one here on this corner, then everybody else has to put it in

um and and have to tear out their landscaping and other things at this point in time would be very cost prohibitive to especially a lot of our older residents in our neighborhood who were here during the 90s that already thought this was kind of settled for them. So, that's me drawing the short straw. I'm happy to take any questions, concerns, or comments. I have a question for you, Kyle. Sure. Um, you were talking about a specific address. Yes. Um, I don't think I don't know that you were able to find it, were you? Yeah. Can I want to see exactly what you're speaking of that the sidewalk? It's right there on Fair View Road, 200 North. Um, and 600 East.

Yeah, I drove by it. There's the right here. Oh, yeah. Literally nowhere. If you go to the street view of that's probably a better option. Um, okay. To see kind of what we're looking at there. It just stops. There it is. They have no sidewalk. No. Oh, they they have no sidewalk down there. We won't talk about the little subdivision going in on Paris. No, I drove by this. There's no Yeah. Yeah. No sidewalk, right? So, there's currently no sidewalk in the neighborhood, but if you go down around the corner to where the white car is. Oh, way down there. Yeah. Yeah. So, turn this. So, this and take a left.

There we are. And you go down the next property that this would run into. Oh, okay. Is elevated above street level. And these are all major rock retaining walls that are 3 to four feet upgrade of where you'd put a sidewalk in. And it basically continues through the entire neighborhood this way. There's again there's a rock retaining wall that was placed. And in many cases, these retaining walls were actually paid for by the city at the time of the special improvement district. Okay. Um, and in the notes, you can go back through the historical notes in minutes there, it talks about setting those retaining walls starting up at two feet back of curb for snow removal,

which clearly sidewalks start at 2 feet or more, sometimes four feet back of curb. Yep. And then you have a 4ft sidewalk or threeft sidewalk depending upon time it was built. And then you start your retaining behind that. So there would be in this particular neighborhood if you go if you turn Sydney and go west you can see here this fence line runs right on as well straight down all these trees down here would run right where the sidewalk trees I mean you're talking major Yep. major issues. Um right there to the right if you will see me that home right there is the Carlson home. It currently has a deferral agreement.

Okay. for a sidewalk on that one. If you go up, the one that had the white car in the driveway also has a deferral agreement. Um there are several other properties in the neighborhood in this in this particular block. Um you have the Cares, the Fishers, the um Arbuckles and several others just within a basically a oneb block, two block radius that have already been granted deferrals because of these similar reasons. But at those times those were either renovations or single home development, not a minor subdivision or subdivision of two lots. So again, now there is sidewalk up on 7 east that is abudded directly to

right the um and this was put in by Royce Allen when he built his home. I don't remember exactly what year, but it was back in like 1970 something. Um and he actually had to put in that road. That's why at the top of Parish Lane there's that crazy like hairpin turn right at the top. It's because his road adapted into the city road there. Those were both their roads prior to his development. Um yeah, so there you go.

Any other historical context I'm willing to give? Really the the gist of it is just to present the city council with the opportunity to hear circumstances instead of having their hands tied. And you know then they ultimately with the approval of the city council on recommendation of staff and the planning commission those decisions can be made on a one-on-one or per application basis as opposed to just a this is a historical district sidewalks aren't required or but it gives a little bit of leeway without opening up Pandora's box is the hope of this text amendment. Thank you Mr. Green. Thank you.

Okay. So, we'll take it and we'll um open up the public hearing. So, I'll open the public hearing and if anybody wants to come to the podium and provide comment, sorry, Mr. Green, you you don't get to double dip. And I you you had said we hadn't received any comment. Okay. Seeing no, I actually want to hear from staff.

Yeah, but I'm doing public right now. Yeah, we'll get there. So, seeing nobody from the public, I'm going to close the public hearing, take it back to um the commission for uh questions for staff, and I want to start, Lisa, with you if that's okay. Um so, I um generally really disfavor deferrals for a lot of reasons. help me understand how Centerville makes this work financially because I mean some of these deferrals if they just keep deferring we're going to be into the 2300s before we need sidewalks here

right so um staff has historically um recommended denial of all deferral requests that have come in the last few years I can think of about five that uh Mike and I have dealt with so staff's position is that the best time to get public improvements in is when development of the property occurs. But that's actually that's our only trigger to require them to build. Cities actually require the developer to build the public improvements and then those are turned over to the city to take care of forever. See that? But so we actually have the harder part of the deal.

They they build them when it goes in and then we take care of it perpetually. So anyway, staff has Yes, we think that improvements should go in. Um, two decades ago or so, the city used to require a city engineer estimate of the improvements to be deferred. So we would and we would collect that money, the $1,200 for a sidewalk, and then 20 years later, the sidewalk was $10,000. So we stopped collecting the money because it just it was useless and and instead went with the deferral agreement that says if and when we want this to go in you have 6 months 6 to 12 months to put it in or we will go ahead and put it in and just bill you. So it is very problematic and um there there's an example in Farmington um what's that street anyway? It's the major street there when the um high school went in Farmington said We're going to call on all these deferral agreements and some of them were upwards of $50,000 on a single family home that has been there forever. It was deferred from the beginning and politically it is a nightmare to call on these. And I think it is an extreme problem for future owners who didn't actually agree to this. You just bought this house. You understand it has this agreement, but you assume that's never going to happen. The entire neighborhood doesn't have sidewalks. So, um, thank you for the question. Staff is opposed to these and thinks that the improvements should go in if and when the development occurs because it's politically um difficult and near impossible to call on these. I mean, we have we we have called and and it's not just this section of the code I want to highlight is not just sidewalks. And so we tried to kind of divide those out because there's bigger issues with sidewalks a lot of the times with other public

improvements like we've had waterline deferrals on frontage road because it was so far away and we thought well we'll bring it this way but when it comes here we want you to finish your section. We have called on those and we have probably called on sidewalk ones, but they need to be probably sooner than 10 years or or it's it's very hard to to have that expectation. But as you can see, there are some situations where, you know, with these deferral agreements, you have an you have a property owner and they're coming in and saying, "Look at my property. It makes no sense."

Yeah. um I don't think we should put this in. Um but we always get those arguments. So on 200 South um near the uh Duel Creek, we if you look at that map with the overlay, you will see pockets. So we have some streets that don't have any, but as these homes have redeveloped or um so yeah, like I think 100 South is a great example of see how we're finally getting it in those. if you can go out a little bit. But those three those three next to the this parkish area, you know, that was new development and then another home kind of went in with a lot split and then on 200 South we've got a few in. So you can see this area did not historically have sidewalks, but over time we have been able to get them and this is how you know non-conforming areas become conforming over time. probably 50 years from now, if we stick with the plan that we have, we will have a lot more sidewalks,

right? Um but

uh there there's and our code already does acknowledge though that Centerville City may want to designate an area like a historic area where we just say sidewalks are not going to be required because, you know, it it was historically developed. it doesn't necessarily need to be um installed, but as staff when we looked at the map or I I guess for me um it I would rather say let's get a deferral than just say you don't have to have one. The deferral gives us the argument in the future. I mean there's some there is a legal obligation and if a council wants to call on it legally, we can and should. this is the deal. You know, we're the public and we're letting them defer it because it doesn't make sense now, but

but down the road we could, right? Let's say a school goes in or, you know, we're ready to do a a bigger street or something like that and we could call on it. So, so currently as it stands, we don't need it. Yeah. So, I rather than saying because that was really difficult for staff to say, "Okay, these two, we probably would have started with two streets. Okay, these two streets don't and these two blocks don't need sidewalks." So the idea we came up with is let's just designate this whole core area like town from main street porter to parish all the way up to the hillside and say this is the area where we will accept deferral requests. Okay.

And so from staff's perspective thank you Sydney. So, we as staff, our GIS um worked with community development and the DRC team and we talked about whether that really needs to go all the way up the hillside, but there's some persuasive arguments particularly in the hillside that sidewalks probably should only be required on one side of the street because that's where you really

make sense. So, but from staff's perspective, this is a bit of a comprom, you know, we feel like if the council is willing to say, okay, we're going to narrow the argument, you know, or the deferral debate down to this area, but the rest of the city, we we won't have to deal with those issues. In the rest of the city, our policy is that sidewalks go

got to have it. I don't know the staff will be successful in that argument with the council, but this would be a significant win for staff to not have to worry about all these deferral agreements coming and we're getting them more often. I I mean more and more often. I it's mainly the sidewalk probably in this area, but you know, these lots are getting subdivided 100%. And that was that was where we drew the line in the previous code. That is not very old code that says cuz we were tired of arguing about it even with developers like of course you have to put the sidewalk in. You're developing and that's when it goes in. That's your responsibility. But then we're getting these somebody just doing a lot split.

Um so it you know I think what the applicant is requesting is persuasive. I see. Hey, it's just this. But like the city engineer was saying, "Yeah, but wait a minute." You know, we did try to analyze how how many places in the city could this could they take advantage of this if we do the two lot minor subdivision. Yeah. But then we also narrowed it down and said it can't be on an arterial or a collector street. So you'll see here this is this is such a great map. You can see that you're not going to be allowed to do it on Porter or Parish or 400 East. Yep. See how that's a arterial only like the east side,

but it has to be 25 miles or less. We feel like that requirement and Kyle might have thought of that idea. That requirement is, you know, it's safe enough or, you know, if people are going to have to walk in the streets, we want to limit it to our our low mile streets. I love that. Um, so that was an idea. And then we were trying to talk about, well, what if it's near a church? There's lots of churches in this area. Um, but as we did these buffers, like if you do 500 feet from a church or a school, you you you you're going to require sidewalks in a lot of this area. So, we actually reduced that to 250 ft, which is about

Shoot, I didn't bring my map. I had a bubble map on 250 ft, but it's like half a block, I think. But we did say, look, if you're that church or you're the school, you you're the use that needs to put the sidewalks in, at least around your use. So, and you can see the church um mainly has Yeah. on their frontage. There's it on the school's back property. Mhm.

So, we talked about a lot at the staff level and that I guess that's what I would like to say in terms of these code amendments is if we're going if we're going to open the door a crack saying, okay, these lot splits don't have to put in or they'll be eligible for deferral. We wanted to make sure that there were more guidelines for the council to make these decisions. Wonderful. So that it didn't that the exception didn't become the rule and any two lot subdivision anywhere in Centerville always got the deferral. Yep.

Because that's been our experience historically was most of the time when residents bring a request for a deferral it's granted. But you know some of them make sense. I I should say. I mean they they had to meet four criteria that were in our existing code like there's no sidewalks adjacent and you know that those types of things. So anyway, we just kind of put our laundry list here, our laundry wish list into this code. And

I think we've hit most of them, but essentially what we added to add those guard rails to cracking the door, but it's basically a doors stop. So the doors stop regulations um require well our current code says it has to be a legal conforming lot or paral um for um this is uh h require required factors. So this is what you in order to even apply this is what you have to meet. I think we used to have four criteria and now we have well more than that. Um, okay. So, our previous code was a little confusing. I think staff read it in different ways, but our previous code said no street improvements existing on the same side of the street contiguous to the lot or parcel in one or both directions. But then it said unless otherwise approved by the council based on good cause.

Okay. And we all know that's standard. Yeah. Um or and this is the part or the parcel is in an area the city specifically designated where no sidewalks are required. So that's the way we dealt with it a long time ago when we knew this was a problem and we said yeah let's put that on our list of things to do but we never got around to it. So now we're saying no improvements and I I just said of the similar type requested for deferral exist on the same side of the street. So now we're being specific. Just the same side of the street in one or both directions within 250 ft. Okay.

Um or the block, whichever is greater. And we went I actually when I first drafted that I I said a thousand feet and then we went to the bubble maps and then I went to 500 and another B and it was so anyway right now it's just recommended at 250 and if if you'd like to see that how far 250 we could try to get that but I think it's imagine each residential lot has about a 600 660 foot frontage. Yep. These double lots are going to be 120. So you're looking at four lots. Okay. About um that'd be 306.

All right. Um, and then here's the Kyle's requested change. It's not within a recorded subdivision and is not being created as part of a new subdivision with the exception of a new minor residential subdivision consisting of two lots or less in the residential low zone. Okay, so again limited to our RL. Um, and then we came up with these other things just for sidewalks. So the number six just for sidewalks six it must be in this map. Show them the beautiful map again. Interesting. This has to be in that map. Okay.

And and Mike put even more information on this map that we can show you. Um but I can let hard to exit. Oh, that's right. One more. We understand there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'll do this and then you can talk about all these other the legends on there. But it has to be in that area. Um it has to be on a residential minor residential with 25 miles per hour per hour or less. So that takes away three of the streets in there. Okay. Um the lot or parcel cannot be located adjacent to a school, church, or park. Okay. So if you're right next door to a park or a church,

we debated how far out we should go, but we just decided, well, if you're right next door, you should probably continue. It has to have because we're and then because the last one says if your primary use is a school, a church, or a park, you have to be able to. Okay. Question is adjacent across the street. No. Oh, well, no. I don't like to say immediately adjacent, but if that wait, what is it like kitty corner? Is that what you mean? Yeah. Because the street So, yeah, adjacent to the subject parcel. So, it's this one and this one, right? They share a boundary without So, not oppressive. And I think it does say um

like that. The water parcel must not Oh, wait. Um where was that one located adjacent to? Yeah. The So, the lot parcel must not be adjacent to. So, if it's across the street, that's not adjacent. The streets adjacent. That's what I figured. I just wanted to make sure I was correct. stated on I mean personally I don't I I don't want to muck around in the draft. I think it's a really really good draft. Personally if it's across the street from a school I want it to go in. Yeah I do too. I say well what we were trying well staff also thought should we focus on and this might be we want an intern to do this project where we say hey in this area let's

just get let's look at what where the most sidewalks are and at least get one side of the street connect and start connecting those but that got too complicated and we did want to be responsive to this application so we can tweak it further depending on what the council wants But as staff, we felt like we needed to that would take more dollars. Yes. I mean, we spent a lot of staff time on getting us where we are. But if they would like us to come up with that, hey,

exempt these streets or start targeting this side of the street, we're happy to look at that. But I think it would be more staff hours. Commissioner, I would like it adjacent to this this the school on both sides of the street. Well, those two terms are in tension with each other. That's sort of what I was getting at. Well, but she's saying that it's only touching the boundaries and I'd like it adjacent like across the street. Yeah. Adjacent isn't across the street. Yeah. Okay. Then, so it's interesting if you look at a couple of these. Let's see. Where is the school? Let's look at a school. And this may be um you know, pretty much a move point. There may not be. Yeah, we don't have that situation to have that. Yeah, maybe.

I think perhaps the only area that I would think about in this case, and it's not necessarily around the idea of adjacency or across the street, but 100 East um as it approaches Centerville Elementary. That's what I was thinking as well. Yeah. Yeah. We've got we've got a gap there. Yep. 200. Isn't that 100? Oh, now 200. So, the back side of the elementary school, but see that one house, that first house is adjacent. So, it would have to go in right there. So, but thinking also the other side of of that that I'm curious about is safe routes to school. What about 200 East as it approaches the school?

Yeah. And they do we do have safe routes to school and I don't know where those are, but that would be a good comment. So, that as staff was thinking this would be nice to say like we need a new green line that says this is where we want the sidewalks. That would be ideal. Yeah. Yeah. But you could also say, "Hey, we want to go back to five within 500 feet of the school." Within 500 feet of the school would get you across the street. Yeah, that's I don't know. If I have my bubble, I'm just looking at the This is the school that we walk sidewalks for. I'm looking at First and there's that one red line across the street. Directly correct. Yeah. Yeah. Right there. What other school? Let's see.

Another part of the code which Mr. green. Will you come back to the port line? So, I I spent a lot of time on this because I knew these were going to be questions, right? So, in examples like on 200 East where there's that little bit of red line. Yeah. In the current code, it's already covered as a property that is contiguous to an existing sidewalk. They would not be eligible for a deferral. So there's current code that already takes into account those pieces of ground that are already like that where they're contiguous or they're within 200 feet of another sidewalk. They already in the code it's already covered

as opposed to going and making additional line items. The reality of it is is most of these properties are within even even in the existing code if you change nothing except for saying a minor subdivision of two lots or less. The majority of the properties that are adjacent to a school or adjacent to a major thoroughfare, they already have sidewalks. Including across the street from my home, there's a big piece of ground that's undeveloped, but it already has contiguous sidewalk on Northeast that runs right up to that property line. There was a question about this when it was opened up to the full city about um Worsley Lane. There's a development they're subdividing two houses there and the question is well would they be eligible for deferral? The answer is no because the sidewalk already runs contiguous to that property and it butts it and touches into it. And so there's a lot of areas in the existing code that mitigate for things like those small pieces. Neither one of those lots on 200 East would be um eligible because they already have sidewalk that abutts them.

Thank you. The same down here on the corner of 100 East also not be eligible because it's already contiguous to an existing sidewalk. Um anything going up,

you know, that first house on the corner, if they redevelop, they would have to. And with the provision of adding 250 ft, pretty much everybody along um is that 300 north going up from 200 east. Those would all be required at that point because you'd either be touching the sidewalk that exists from east coming down or the sidewalk coming up from the elementary school. There's a lot of the code addresses these issues without it's easy I looking at the map it's easy to get fixated on one piece of the code without looking at the rest but if you start looking at it as a broader piece most of these lots aren't going to be redeveloped and they would have already been eligible for a deferral because they're not subdivisions

they're just single they're just remodels and whereas Lisa has added to the new code that when they come in for they would have to file for a new deferral and and that brings up a good point that so our previous code

was a little vague but in some ways it was to our advantage because it was just saying hey you can apply and these are the factors the council needs to look at and now I was a little worried because we're saying as soon as we said 250 ft but what I liked about that was in the council meetings we would argue well is that close enough is that not close enough and our public works director has to look at the code and and make a recommendation. But I did want to emphasize that it's still within the council's full discretion. These are not it's not like a conditional use permit. If you meet these 25 things that we put in there that are very specific, it still doesn't mean that we have to grant it. And so I added just as soon as I put the 250 ft, I said the factors set forth herein are minimum requirements for deferral of public improvements. and the city council reserves the right to determine in its sole discretion whether there's good cause for the deferral. So on some of these where you're saying, "Wait a minute, the school or this or we're finishing a piece. I don't care if you're 300 ft away, you're that's

I did we did go back and forth on should we put a number in, but I think it's helpful for all to say, okay, this is kind of what we're looking for, but we still could deny it." Or you could take the 250 ft out and leave it vague again. No, I like it. It's better not to be vague. Yeah. So that was kind that's why we went less than because they still have to make the argument if we say 500 ft. We're really going to restrict the number of people that can even apply. Yeah. So we're saying fine, you you can we're going to make it broader. These can apply, but maybe only these get approved. Yep. You don't. Yeah. Yeah. But so good point. This is just Thank you.

still reserve the discretion. Yeah, there's a lot of tension uh that we have to weigh. Yeah, as as a care having grown up with my grandparents up there, we loved taking walks on the areas without sidewalks. And I I I actually personally love taking walks from my house on the areas without sidewalks. Just the freedom. I just like it. It feels It feels feels cozier. That said, I like it too. That said, we need to put sidewalks in. Yeah. Well, this might be a good segue so we can hear from our public works director, Mike Carlson, who has come and sat through this lengthy meeting. But thank you, Mike. Yes.

Just from the department that, you know, has to maintain all these sidewalks.

Well, I usually don't agree with giving a deferral. My my thing is is it's the cheapest time to put it in is when you're doing it, you know. But having said that, you know, I a couple other areas I I'm thinking of one deferral is on four northeast that I denied because I felt like they needed to have enough opportunity to get into the old part of town, so to speak. And I got overruled and that's okay. I don't mind it at all. It's part of the job. But it's hard to determine, you know, what's right and what's wrong. I I love the old part of town. I have since 1982 when I started working for the city. Great. That makes me old. But anyway, uh you know, it's a neat unique place to have it and I really like the compromise that we have because I think it still gives us some latitude to try to make things work in the in the the half of it. Uh I just it's like for me it's just like yeah, there is no cheaper time than when it's present. But the thing is is also I get it where we have these little segways of sidewalk and then no sidewalk and stuff like that. I get it. Where's the happy medium? I'm not quite sure to be honest with you. My big push is was it got addressed by Lisa before I even got a chance to say anything, but you know Main Street Northeast where people are walking all the time had to have it. That was a goal of mine. But Lisa nailed that long before I got a chance to say anything. But it's, you know, the safety element is what part of my job is about. It's trying to make sure that the citizens are safe to and from of where they go. And so when I analyze it, I have to look at it. I've only gave one deferral in the whole five years that I've been the director. But that was one that made totally no sense whatsoever. You know, as Mr. Green was saying, there are a lot of spots on First North. There's, you know, that it's really going to be tough to put sidewalk in and it's not going to be any easier when you

go if you just call on the deferral and you go put it in, it's even going to be probably the worst. But then again, will the city city ever do it? I have no clue. You know, I just know that, you know, it's hard to uh foresee what's going to go on. Like I say, having what I said, I love the old part of town and how it is, how how it's set up with no sidewalks. But there again, I try to do whatever I'm directed to do by code and that's what I try to follow through. I can try to answer any questions, but I think Lisa did a great job and hitting our staff stuff. That's why we let her go first. She's awesome. Oh, and Sydney too and Mike. But anyway, I love Lisa.

That's kind of where I'm at with it. You know, I I get the halfacre lot up there. I mean, there's no sidewalk around there other than, you know, there's one that's a button to the curb that uh uh Fiser put in. I think it was Fiser, right? No, this is on the west side of Six East. Farmer Jay Farmer. J Farmer. That's actually not sidewalk. It's parking. Well, it is, but there's still a place to walk, you know. So, but other than that, there's really nothing in the area, you know. I don't have major heartburn with, you know, allowing this not to go in at this time, but, you know, if I have to get asked, I know where I'm going with it. So, anyway, thank you. Okay. Any questions?

Questions for from the planning commission? Okay. No. Very good. Thanks. Thank you. So, uh, Mr. Green, you've heard all of this and I know you've come back, but I want to give you a last bite of the apple. Do you have anything else you want to add?

Um, not a lot. I appreciate the planning commission taking the time to hear it and look at it and study it. Um the the whole thing and it kind of boils back to just the the first point. It was just allowing citizens the opportunity to present their case to the city council and say here's why. And at the end of the day if the council even on this parcel that I the the one that I've called attention to at the end of the day if the city council looks at it and goes you know what we don't want to grant a deferral. we still want sidewalk there. That's the prerogative of the council to do as elected officials of of the Southernville citizens to make that decision. And I feel like between the discussions, I mean, this has been several months in the and discussions and multiple meetings of staff. I think we've come up with a really good middle ground solution that doesn't open up the city to a whole bunch of problems logistically. I think it's created an opportunity that allows citizens at least a chance to plead their case. And that's that's basically the gist of this was just give them an opportunity to plead their case. And there's going to be times, I mean, you look at the map on 100 South and somebody comes in and says, "I I want a deferral." You can look at it and go, "Well, you've got sidewalk either side of you." Yeah.

You've got to put it in.

Um, that makes sense. And and I think this is a good common sense way to mitigate the concerns of those that live in Old Centerville that have lived here a long time. Um I I've not been here quite as long. You know, I was born here in ' 84, but I was here when those improvement district went in and the special improvement district. And there was a lot of fighting then about whether or not to go with back stop curb or rounded curb curb. And half of our streets are rounded and half of them are are are curbbacked. And honestly, I still love the rounded one. Mine has a rounded curb. It makes mowing the lawn a lot easier. All the kids use my my front yard as the the emergency offramp coming down 200 North because there's no curb. Their bikes across the grass, their bikes, their their wagons. I mean, we really do have a nice piece of old Centerville and it's very nostalgic. It's um even where the sidewalks exist up on 7th east, nobody uses them. You can go park your car up there at 7:00 a.m. and watch and every person that walks, there's not a single person that ever touches that sidewalk. You can go up Parish Lane even and the sidewalk from Northeast to Deer Hollow Circle gets used, but after Deer Hollow going up Parish, not a person touches that sidewalk. It just doesn't happen. and it and it's just because of the way and the nature of the neighborhood that we're in. The other piece that I have a concern about on mandating kind of the hopscotch um sidewalk is that okay this house is doing it today. The next one comes in 35 years or 30 years. How is the condition of sidewalk one that's now sat for 30 years waiting for sidewalk to tie to it? Is it broken? Is it cracked? Is it lifted? Is it going to have to be ripped out and replaced to

make it a usable sidewalk again even though it's been unused for 30 years as a piece of a hopscotch sidewalk? As a builder and as as a I wouldn't call myself a developer. I'd call myself more of a restorer of homes. Um I do a lot of renovations. I get it. I get the need for it. I get the need for putting in sidewalks, especially when you're doing a massive development. And I think that's I think that's very um it's very wise. I I actually brought up when we had this discussion with staff before I even filed my text amendment. I understand the reluctance especially after watching what happened in Farmington down I was that Glovers that tied down to the school that caused all the problems and the headaches. I think they call it Phoenix Lane or something now. But it was Glover's Lane and that was that was a headache. Now I would say that Glover's Lane is probably was long before set to be a major thoroughfare, much more so than a 200 North or first south or a um even parish lane dead ending at the top. I just don't see us having much more traffic than we currently have in our neighborhood. And so I feel like this really does make a common sense play for the city to be able to at least hear people come in and say, "Here's why. Here's what I think." And and that and that's all we're asking for in the text amendment. It was just a simple opportunity to present the case and then allow it to be heard on its merits. So I again I appreciate you guys taking the long night to hear about the dogs first and now have to listen to something so boring as sidewalks. I appreciate it. Thank you. If you have any other questions, I'm happy to address them.

I do have a follow-up question for staff. Um, why uh was there a conversation about limiting the request process to the planning commission only rather than sending it all the way up to the city council? Has that been discussed? No. Okay. One of the reasons being is that we're better equipped. they don't necessarily have to deal with this is this is truly an administrative and honestly personally I would say just limit it to staff but that's not yeah that's not as palatable for staff and for obvious reasons I would I would wonder if there's that if that is a possibility so it hasn't been

um agreement does go to the c I mean we it would have to as an agreement yeah as an agreement we take that agreement to the council so that's typically the public works director. Sorry, he had to go on for an emergency. But the um he makes a recommendation. So staff reviews it, makes a recommendation to the council and and then the council gives staff direction. Yes or no? And then we bring an agreement to him. But the I don't know. Yeah. But doesn't it also pass through the planning commission prior to the city council? No, I can't remember. Commissioner Mendel,

I'm just wondering because of the financial commitment that's being made whether we at the planning commission can even deal with that or whether no we can't we can't bind the city for the the they have to sign agreement but yeah they would have to eventually now that I'm talking about this out loud it's going to go to the city council anyway yeah sounds like time question withdrawn and and I was just going to make for me as a citizen and this is personal belief I feel like it's very important that decisions like that actually get to go to the city council 100%. Because that's who I voted for. Yeah.

And and I realize the commission I I I I know the commission's appointed by the mayor and those kinds of things, but and this is way off topic, but the creation of these independent taxing districts and other things going out, I feel like there's less and less power for the citizen to actually get in touch with the person that makes decisions on their behalf. And so I would I would say for me I would like it to continue to go to the council. I know you went through the question, but that's just my thought. No worries. Thank you. Okay, we're going to close all of the everything and we're just going to talk about this uh among the commission. Who wants to lead out?

As someone that's building on Porter Lane, I see the importance of having sidewalks. We're obviously putting them on. It's at my cost. I'm happy to do it. I also walk every morning up on the east bench and I am like you. I walk on the roof.

I do. I love the free of just being able to just walk and not being tied. But I do see I mean I I'm torn because I am I'm paying the money to have Porter Lane established with sidewalks. Personally, I'm paying as someone that's building, but I also don't see the importance of having a sidewalk that starts that there's no sidewalks that leads. It just doesn't make sense. If there's no sidewalk that leads to it, that's my opinion.

Okay. Other comments? I would say similar vein, but as a resident on, you know, center street right at the base of this hill, one of the things that I've noticed is that, you know, as you get towards the base of the hill, cars start to go a lot faster right before they hit 400 East. And so that separation can be pretty important, especially at the bottom of the hill. Uh, and that's why I think this approach makes a lot of sense where we're not making deferrals easier. We're making it clearer how to go about the process and helping to inform the decision- making more so that we're not running into instances where we're leaving gaps where it's essential we have them. So, I I'm I'm in support.

Okay. my comment comments. Some of them would be um I walk every day, sometimes mostly twice a day, and I always use the sidewalk. Got a girl. It's I walk my dog and it's just what I do and it's safer. Yep.

Um and I feel that it's important to have them. I think that this is so well thought out. I think staff did seriously a knockout job on this. There were at least a lot of changes that were made to better it. I think that it's a lot more clear and um I think it's a much better alternative than what we had. I like it. I think it's well well done. Any comments from this side of the table? Do you have anything, Gary?

I just I mean I'm in favor of sidewalks. I think especially in places that you're talking about around schools and that kind of thing, a safe route for the kids to walk. Um I drove through the neighborhood and you can see the peacemeal nature of what's going on up there and obviously there are reasons for deferrals. I mean, you know, so I think that the the process of getting a deferral is is much clearer now. And I so I agree with the language and I think that um yeah where we can have sidewalks we should but there are definitely places where it's going to be pretty difficult to accomplish that. So, yeah,

Mike, I told Mike earlier I I I'd like to get the uh historic preservation group in in Centerville to take the the central city and put do away with sidewalks altogether, but uh no, I think what's been done here is is exceptional. I think it putting sidewalks in in rare random areas is probably more dangerous than than having no sidewalk at all. And I I think this absolutely provides a means for us to at least weigh in and and view the alternatives.

Okay, I'll go last. Um, contrary to Mr. Green's experience. When I do walk those roads, I do use those sidewalks. That's okay. I mean, to each his own. Um, growing up in this area, uh, at least with my grandparents there, I love the idea of an area of preservation where the city doesn't have sidewalks. That's one thing. And so, if this were to be tweaked to allow for a uh area of preservation for no sidewalks, I I could see my heartstrings being pulled in that direction. Um, the logical part of my brain says, "What the heck are you thinking? Don't do that." Yeah.

Um, also the logical part of my brain sort of, you guys have all heard that analogy where a guy's walking on the beach and he sees somebody throwing starfish back into the water and he's like, "You're never going to be able to rescue all these starfish." And the response is, "Yeah, but I'm rescuing this one." It's the same analogy here. I don't want to say to somebody, "Listen, you have to put a sidewalk in." And the response is, "Yeah, but why me? I'm the first." Yes, you are. this is where it starts.

And so otherwise, I don't know. So, I'm really torn. I love what ST staff has done uh with the um draft, and I think Mr. Green has raised a really a lot of really persuasive points. So, um I'm probably going to vote against proposing it to forward it to the council simply as a signal that deferrals really are not a good idea. Mhm.

It has no commentary on the product. I think the product is really good and in fact better than what we have. And so the attorney attorney in me is like, well, what the what why are you voting against something that's better and makes it easier for a city? Because I want there to be a signal this is not unanimous because there's other really big part of me that says this should be amended to not allow for deferrals. Period. And I would make a a motion against you. That's perfect. I know you and I differ a lot and I love it. Yes. I I love it. Um because I think that this is

a much better alternative than what's out there and I think that it is very well thought out that it not only protects helps the citizens but it also protects the city, right? And what the city needs, which is why I want the motion to pass. I know. I'll take a motion. All right. Before we take a motion, just one Let's be clear. Yeah. Go ahead. Go ahead.

I was going to say one one other comment I would just make and I this I in my in my mind is not anything that needs to be adjusted when it comes to these code amendments. But one thing that I see as potentially missing here is having those formalized plans in place where we're saying, "Okay, if we are going to if if internally we think we ought to have a sidewalk on one side of the street on some of these uphill roads or in this historic district, we need to start to document where we want those to be so that when if we're going to allow this to occur peace meal like it is,

uh, we already have a plan in place about which side that's going to and so on and so forth. But I that's not necessarily for the code. That's perhaps something the code needs to reference down the road. So to piggy back off of that, Lisa, that map that you showed, then you said it was from, you know, A point A to B and C to D right there. Doesn't that sort of answer that question though?

Partially. It doesn't answer what side of the street. Well, it allows it does allow the city council andor the public works director to look at that area. I mean, our GIS map that shows sidewalks in blue and no sidewalks in red helps the decision maker make that analysis, but they have to make that analysis every time. And those decision makers change, which is another, you know, objective of staff. We want our decisions to be objective. We want to give criteria that are objective so that people get, you know, similar results. It's it's not.

So anyway, I yeah, I think it is something that staff would like to do and at least say this is the recommendation, but again, this was a a compromise that I think that that can be looked at and should be put on the list of things to do. Can I jump on that? I'm leerary of an approach where we um treat one side of the street different than the other. If it was the city paying for it every day of the week, if it was the citizens paying for it, which it is, I don't want to create situations where the citizens are like, "Why do I have to pay? Why do I have to pay $50,000 when my neighbor if I'm on Porter versus Yeah. True. That's that's my reservation. That's a great point. But but all of this conversation just goes to show that there isn't going to be a clean solution here."

No. So, anyways, you want to develop, you're going to pay other Come on. Other comments. Oh, sorry. I just had one thing that I wanted to discuss and I apologize I haven't brought this up with Mike and Sydney but I believe that the staff recommendation is denial. Yeah.

With but we've proposed what you know sort of our wish list as staff. We want to be cautious about we've made mistakes in the past where we join forces with the applicant. So we tried to be very careful this time and say look this is the applicant's application and this is city staff. Now the applicant is saying yes we like that direction. Um, but possibly the planning commission, depending on how you want it, you could either say we recommend denial and let the council work through these policy things. Or you could say we recommend approval subject to using staff's recommended changes in ordinance 202613. So if you adopt this version, council, we like it.

So either no, we don't want to go in this direction. We don't think it's good. We appreciate all the work that staff has done. or we think staff's version is way too complicated. We want to go with the applicants. So, I think those are some of your options, but the approval subject to this version, yeah, I think is legitimate. So, that okay, that would be motion number two. Is that that what you're saying? That number two approval with Yeah, it's sort of a it's it's sort of motion. It would be

yeah, I would just say subject to the additional staff recommended changes set forth in draft ordinance number 2026-13 and then you would use the findings one through three, but adding to that that we find that the proposed text amendments with staff's changes are consistent and with staff's changes that doesn't create detrimental impact and with staff's changes they're in the best interest of the city. Um, are you going to repeat that? I'm gonna make a motion to deny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was Yeah. I'm just giving you options. Yeah. Hold on. Well, hold on.

Okay. So, I want you to say one more time. All of your legal ease or your basic verbiage. I want you to say one more time. So if it was a recommend to approve but it's subject to blah blah blah. Finish that. So yeah, let me just say your options again because I know I Yes, please. Quickly. Option number one is to just approve the requested amendment as drafted by the applicant. But you're open this up to just need to deny

or deny. staff's recommendation in the staff report is to just deny and we can send all this debate up to the city council and they can decide whether they want to deny it in full or you know open the door with all these guard rails. And then the third option would be so approve as applicant deny or approve with those committ as long as city council you deduct all of the changes recommended by staff. Okay, then it's acceptable. I'm just saying that would be that motion.

Okay. And the three findings would have ver staff's version staff's amended version of the document in the findings. If you look at motion number one, each condition says the planning commission finds that the proposed text amendments, you know, are consistent with the general plan. But the recommendation would be well the proposed text amendments with the staff's changes as modified are consistent with that

and the proposed text amendments don't create a detrimental impact. Well with staff's recommended changes they don't create a detrimental impact. So on each three of those just adding after amendments with staff changes with staff's. Yeah. Okay. Well then I'd like to make a motion. I'd like to as well. Okay. We'll start with Vice Chair Patterson. So, I'd like to make a um a motion to approve, but with as long as um city council approves all the proposed um text amendments that staff has requested for the changes.

Okay. So, I have a motion. I know that typically we we we go through a full motion cycle. I'm going to go ahead and allow Commissioner Jorgensson to make her motion as well. Can you scroll up, please? Scroll up or down? Scroll up. Sorry, down. I apologize. I hereby make a motion to recommend City Council's denial of the proposed zoning code text amendments to zoning Centerville zoning code 10.04.170 04.170 deferral of public public improvements based on the following reasons for action findings one through three. Okay. So I have two motions on the table. Who will be seconding one of them?

Paul is raising his hand. I'm going to second Vice Chair Patterson. Excellent. Anybody going to second the denial? Seeing none, that motion fails. And so we have a motion on the table. Any comment? Could I just uh bring up the findings commentary or the findings with the findings that have been recommended by city attorney, please? Yes. Okay. Yep. So that is the motion. I'll start down here. I I state it. No. Nay. Nay. I I Okay, that passes. 52. 42.

Oh, 42. Thank you. Mr. Jenkins is not here today. So that passes with a positive recommendation with amendments. This is like the Supreme Court. Now you can write a at least you there's a majority, right? Like rather than a plurality and you don't have to say this, but just it would be helpful for me. Was there something else we could do to the ordinance or is it this is poor policy and we should support cyber? Yeah, I'll be clear on my nay. My nay is super happy that the motion passed because it puts into place a framework that is superior to what we have.

However, for policy reasons, I believe that no deferral should be allowed except for the most extreme of circumstances. And this framework is not extreme enough. The heart in me says, "What the heck are you saying? Create a conservation zone or something." But that's I don't think wise policy for the city. So that's why I said nay. What did you have something that you wanted to say because your hand went out like Oh, no. Yeah. Are you sure? Yeah. Okay. Did you want to say anything or just It's I just feel the same way. I feel like that if you are going to develop a property, I feel like there shouldn't be deferral like opportunities.

It's the best. That's my opinion. Okay. And there I think everybody has really good points. All the points are super valid. Okay. Good luck to the city council who's either viewing or willing. That's what you wanted, Kyle. So that's Is everybody good to continue? Do we need a five minute uh break? No. Well, how long does Mike have to speak? Okay. How long are is Mike going to be speaking? Might determine. Well, the next one will probably be at least one. Yeah. Oh, that's right. Yeah. And the next one should be faster. Really relatively quick unless you have a lot to talk about on that basis. Well, can we take a two-minute break? Yeah, we're going to take a 3minut break. Okay.

Where do we have I was just going to say like staff I thought I I thought I had printed out the other this last item. Tell me what the last item is again. Last item. We just going to like I thought I printed it out. It's the split zoning. Split lot zoning. Oh yeah, that was strange. Yeah, it we have lots in the community cross zone. is the best policy in those scenarios.

So what this is is this is when we come across them forcing any kind of development to push that they become uniform. What did we do with Spence Packers? That's exactly why we're bringing it up. He's the prototype for why this I cuz I can I I mean he's got two lots basically unless he merged his own. He did mer he did merge the zone. So he would get an assistant next to me every time. Well, actually they want to approve this. Oh, compels it if you want to develop your properties. Excellent. Whereas before it didn't and a lot of cities have this

what happens is you get in a situation where it's hard for tax policy as far as the county because you have two different assessments, right? If you have a mixed, let's say it's a commercial residential property, right? creates an assessment problem and then even from the city when it comes to any kind of land use request. Oh, what is that?

You don't know are they developing a commercial lot or residential lot and you know you have situation like that. So then what rules are they following? Do you do geographical area and say well this area you're subject to commercial ordinances that you're not. This clears it up where the whole parcel has to be that that zone. Now, I guess they could do a subdivision in a split zone scenario as well, right? If you had two zones, you can make the one lot match the zone that it is and then the other lot that's not as clean at least we'll get people. That's the basic talking about I am cities. I've worked for cities and every one of them has a problem.

All right. What do we have over here that's worth a product of older policy older areas of the city properties that have never really had a lot of development? So they totally get this weird I hope you're wearing them when you're driving processing. When I say old, I'm talking years old. It is been a struggle because I have a desk is probably about like this far away. Oh, is that far enough where they won't just because she can't eat them? I'm okay. I got my I got my soda. It was like

Oh my gosh. That's a bad idea. I really did that. Um, I guess I'm barely it's interesting even on his if you look at days. My heart rate is still up for your watch. My heart rate is still got that one piece. That's crazy. And he had the piece behind it. And he go back up and he's going to put parsley up above that.

But then there's pieces in between. Yeah, they're and they're all interior which makes them even harder to develop cuz they don't even have front edge. So at some point I mean those parcels frankly they're probably inexpensive but they're kind of parcels he's open must be pretty extreme come back then those parcels

but man hold I mean real estate's always how small and big it is. So question is is it otherwise it's just I'm going to draw for you today and okay I've been really patient friends I don't know sure thanks Kyle's under five home so I'm going to we have a we have a spot for you if you need one that might be might be a valid basis are you guys looking for a commission yeah just let us He's full. Oh, we're not full. We're full. We are full. We are full. I'm like, what? Poor Lane. Plus, you wouldn't even talk to us. You're kicking Lane out.

We love Lane. You got to go talk to the mayor. We can always get one more. We're back on the record. Item number three, Mr. I guess or no, Lisa. Actually, let's turn this one over to Lisa. Yeah. Oh, okay. Are you okay with that, Lisa? Sure. And I did put that. Yep. Do you want me to pull it up now? Well, we'll start here.

Um, so we have a proposed staff recommended text amendment regarding split zoning. So when we when we say split zoning, we mean that one lot or parcel has two different zones. So you might be a in the front and residential in the back. And so this has come up historically. Um, I think we had the flowers with the Summer Hill Lane and they wanted to acquire some property and we said, "Well, you have to reszone." And also with the aid millet on frontage road, he wanted to move his he wanted to do a little lot split and move his line. We said, "Well, if you want this, you know, you have to uh reszone it." But someone came in who already had, I think, split zoning. packer.

What's nice, I will say, having Mike and Sydney, they read the code and, you know, they were looking and then they called me and said, "We can't find anything that prevents split zoning." And I said, "No, we don't we don't allow split zoning. It's it's it's not allowed." But anyway, I looked through the code and could not find anything specifically. And uh Mike had found a provision that says, "Well, if your lot parcel is whatever zone or zones, yeah,

I think we do have to say zones because sometimes you're um residential, but you have the hillside overlay." So that would be zones, but I could also see how he was reading it. Well, so anyway, it's easy enough to fix because we do not want to allow split zoning. It creates problems with what can you use it for and and most cities do prohibit it. So, this is a quick text amendment to um make it clear that in Centerville, um we do not allow split zoning and that if that zoning exists, you know, we we're not going to generally bring them in right now. Um but if they want to develop their property or do anything at that point is a triggering event where they will need to correct it. And we give them two options. And this was sort of with the millets like you can either reszone to bring your lot into one zone or if you're lot splitting you can just do a you know a a boundary line adjustment or something so that it it lines up with the boundary lines of two two new lots or parcels. Um, so in the research that I did on this, it did say cautionary that you really shouldn't have your zoning administrator just say, "Oh, well, we're going to call this all a or all residential because now you're taking away a legislative authority from the city council." So, that was the one legal caution. um we do allow the zoning administrator to make some boundary if they're unclear or if it's following a street or something like that. But anyway, so I'm referencing those which are in 1230 050 and 060. So there is some authority, but generally they just really need to do a lot split or a boundary line adjustment. So we will hold them up. So,

and maybe if you want to bring up that other um Excel or I did send you the PDF. Yeah. Oh, sorry. No, that was the last one. My bad. Sorry. Split lots.

Yeah, the PDF's probably going to be best. So, um I did ask the Mike Smith, our GIS, to check and I had already done an analysis of how many parcels do we have with split zoning and we have five. So the top orangey pink those five um are actually have split zoning and so the millet one should be fixed. They just need to record their subdivision. So somehow the zoning was conditioned upon

but it accidentally got So I think we can fix that one. and the uh rolling hills is also doing a minor subdivision right now and will likely be fixed. Now these other ones are just oddities like if you sometimes you have two parcels. So, we have a bunch of properties that ab butt um up to an elementary school and the school was zoned public facility and they ended up just carving off backs of, you know, their lot and they uh did a parcel, you know, quick claim deed and but never reszoned it. And so those they're two parcels with the same parcel number. So technically it's a split zone. But anyway, I mainly did this chart for the city council in case they would like to tackle these because it's it's yeah, this is a great example. Like if you just look at your zoning map, you think that that property is probably the school districts, but it's not. Oh,

you know, it's this one. So, the city could initiate this. And in my I would like to, but I can also see that people might not like their property being reszoned. But is this where we did um Yeah, we made the flowers change by reading. Yes, they were the flowers had to change it and now it look like a nice big lot. Oh, okay. With the right zoning. So

anyway, that was just to let you know we're only looking at about five um lots or parcels that this ordinance would actually apply to. And so we're recommending approval um and to fix this. And I appreciate Mike and Sydney bringing this up. I think we were still able to argue that our code doesn't allow it and before you want to do anything, you know, you need to fix this, but the city could also initiate the zone change if if we wanted. We do have that authority. So, we're recommending approval. Well, it does require a public hearing um since it is an amendment to our zoning code, but I'm happy to answer any questions or if Mike or Sydney have some comments as well. I will say that with the boundary line adjustments um the new code where you can do like a simple or a full boundary line adjustment um that is that's a concern why we might or might not allow for split lot zoning because right now we actually have a boundary line adjustment that is wanting to do a boundary line adjustment between zones and having this in our code will state that okay you do need to do a full because if not then it would create a parcel that would be split locked zoning and we foresee that happening a lot more. So just keep that in mind.

All right. Um questions for staff? None. Seeing none, proceeding to the public hearing. The public hearing is now open. I will take public comments from anybody who wants. Seeing none, closing the public hearing. Bringing it back to the commission for further questions or debate. I will accept a motion.

I hereby make a motion to recommend to the city council approval of the zoning coded text amendment to CZZ 12.30.040 zoning map amendments and enacting CZZ 12.30.045 045 of the same prohibiting split zoning on any parcel or lot and set setting forth guidelines on how to resolve existing lots or parcels with split zoning based on the following reasons for action findings one through four. I have a motion. I think Commissioner Adamson was first. So Commissioner Addison on second. I will start down here. I I I I I

I be funny if I said n. Yeah, all right. So, moving on in the agenda um to the report. All right. I'll I'll try to keep it brief. I know we're running out of time, but I do have a couple of things for the body. Um just as a followup from last night's city council meeting, I'm sure there's a few items you'd be interested in knowing the outcome. The Shorelance Commerce Park uh res or excuse me, zoning text amendment was approved by the council. So that change is now in place for what? Because I missed parts commerce park this commerce park. The vehicle the vehicle changed to this roance commerce park. Remember with Sto and so motorcycles can do repairs, not heavy vehicles and putting

Got it. Got it. Got it. Thank you. So now I get it. That was approved. Okay. Approved last night. And then the water efficient landscaping amendments were approved last night after the discussion. Okay. So that was that was very positive. And the associated um changes to the municipal code whether for park trees was adopted

and then we did this is a minor one but just kind of as a a point or a note professional services deposits. We used to do them as a practice, but we've been having we've been putting in more staff time than was I guess necessary because every bill that was coming in was eventually exceeding the deposit amount. So that has been captured and collected back into the base fee is just the base fee amount and we've we've taken that back. So no more professional services, I guess, is the point of of the story and the council did approve that last night. So uh Lisa was was on show last night in a lot of these. So, she did a great job and and that those are all in place. So, um questions with the water efficient landscaping amendment. It did come up and just so you know in case anybody comes to you um a counselor asked, well, with that Dow being approved, does that mean that somebody can go right tomorrow to go pursue a rebate with Leer Basin? The answer is not quite. Technically the the um code will be in place as of May one officially as you remember with the NO for so that we don't quite know how Wever Basin will

um receive that. I I still need to send them the the update that that has been approved or maybe I'll wait for some don't know. Yeah, the mayor hasn't signed it yet.

Yeah. So once the mayor formally does, we'll send it to them. So if you're having people ask, tell them just to wait a little bit longer, but that will be implemented as from the city on May one. It will actually be in in in place. So um the other thing I wanted to note was that there's a a land use bill. I know it's a lot of legal ease, but I still highly recommend you looking at it and we probably will analyze and talk about a little more. Uh it's it's Senate Bill 284, Substitution 6. That was the one that was enrolled. That's the major local land and water modifications bill that it's a very comprehensive sweeping bill. There's quite a bit in there, including some commentary about the planning commissioners and your operation. So, I would recommend looking over and looking specifically at the amendments that are in there. That's also where the detached ADU language is found if you're curious of what the state is requiring in that. So, you'll find that there. They did go with 11,000 ft or larger is legislatively acceptable.

Wow. So now we'll have to figure out what that code language looks like within the guidelines and the rules that have been established by the legislature in that. So take a look at that if you get amended. I think it would be worth your time. And then the last thing that I will note per your bylaws technically we should have leadership elections. We should have done that first year but we had some change over in planning commissioners. So we if you're okay with it I would like to put elections on your next planning commission meeting. That'd be great. I will not be here and Gary will not be here at the next meeting. If they're not here, then we don't get a say. You don't to vote for you again. To vote for you. I nominate. It can't happen.

Chair rhymes. I love it. And I'm happy to wait even a month out and sounds like we need to wait till we're here. But I'd like to pull sooner than later. So, okay. I won't blame here. So, and don't be surprised if you see it on your agenda in two meetings from today. Hey, I will also say that I have been asked to get pictures for the city website. So, word pass. So, well, I'm sorry. The next meeting that Laray and Gary will be here. Whatever one we vote on, just come ready for a picture. Okay. We're always ready for I love that, Paul. What's up? I love that.

He said we're always ready for a He might be. Look at him every Wednesday. He's in the suit and tie. And and that's all I'd have to report for today. Thank you. Okay, Mike. That reminded me I do not have a copy of the bylaws. Yes, I do have a copy. I can push that out to all of you. Can you email us? Yeah, thank you. I'm sending you an email right now. Okay. Okay. Minutes. Um, so let's move forward to the minutes phase. Um, anybody have any comments? I didn't miss anything that needed to be changed. Okay. So, I will accept a motion. I make a motion to accept I second that motion.

Well, let me finish. I apologize. I make a motion to accept the minutes as um as written. Yep. I second. Perfect. I have a motion and a second. All in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Seeing none, I will accept a motion to close. I make a motion to close. All right. All those in favor? I I'm sorry I had to wait for my motion to say what it was. Sorry. out of a gun.