Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

All right. Well, I'm starting you now. We just have a great big bank of computers. We just All right, everybody. It's 5:15, so we'll get started with this edition of the Planning Commission meeting. Um, we'll start with a pledge of allegiance. Um, would you lead us? Yeah. Monster. I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

All right. Before we get started on our uh agenda, it well, let's go to the approval of the meeting minutes. Does anybody want a motion for the minutes of the 17th February? Yeah. I'll move we approve the minutes from the last meeting. When was that? February 17th. Hey Wayne, can you pull your microphone down? Yes. I move that we approve the minutes from the meeting uh February 17, 2026. And I'll second that. Thanks. We have a motion and a second. All in favor? I.

Any opposed? Good. Before we go to the regular items, uh, faith is abandoning and abandoning us for greener pastures, it would appear, at least more heat in Texas, right? Thank you for all that you've done. You want to make a speech or anything. I'm okay. Thanks. Okay. Well, we appreciate all the diligence that you've put in and and uh we'll miss you. I think a former employer offered her way too much money and so she couldn't afford to stay. Good for her. That seems to be a motivator at times, right? Good. Well, good luck. We wish you good luck.

Step up, Scott. Make her a counter offer. No, I know. Yeah, it's been a brutal winter. Yeah, it has. All right. Well, we only have uh uh on the agenda public hearing for city items. Um Don Budro will be our featured guest tonight. So, take it away, Don. All right. Well, thank you, chair, members of the commission. I don't know if I'm really the one to speak to this. I'm thinking most of this is coming from the downtown economic committee. So, yep, downtown econom. Give the floor to you there, Carter. All right, we'll turn it to Carter then.

Carter Wilkey, Cedar City Council. I was actually the one that put this on the agenda. Um, I was not able to make it to the sketch meeting. So, our chair, Brent Drew, he took care of it at sketch. Said he is coming. Oh, well, here I am. I was planning on presenting. He was planning on presenting. So, you may get both of us if you're lucky. Uh, before we start this conversation, I want to kind of because I know I'm going to have some questions on this. Can we also just pull up the downtown map? Let's actually let's make sure geographically we understand what area we're talking about before we start making some decisions if we could. Hope you guys are okay with that. Before you go on, could I ask Don a question before I forget? You turn your mic on.

Oh, thank you, Don. There's a gentleman named Dan Camp. Uh, he is building a dance studio north of town. You know, approximately where I'm talking by north of the jail. abandoned your open house. He's built he's building his building under the old ordinance under the old um as it relates to materials and and types of materials that he can use. Yep.

Um I spoke with him today and I encouraged him to come but it was kind of on short notice. Is he able to basically fall under the new ordinance and So that well he's talking about not this ordinance. You're talking about this building material. So that that we passed last week. It's not on the agenda. Come talk to us like tomorrow or something because we don't want to go off on an agenda. No, that's fine. I just wanted to Yeah. Okay. Say it before you forgot. Yeah. So now that it's on your court. Oh, okay. Now I got

Thank you. Sorry about that, Carter. continue on. Okay. Will you click on our downtown economic or our downtown uh historic downtown? Thank you. The zone, excuse me. The zone we're talking about is this red. It basically includes everything between 200 north, 200 south, and then 100 east, 100 west, plus the the properties that front center street down to 300 west. Okay, perfect. Yeah. So, it's that red, not necessarily so much. There's some pink in there, too. That's that's those are too we should change those colors. That's

Yeah. And and if I could just throw just so you know the general plan designation this micro which sometimes we treat like it's an automatic zone change that goes from about 400 south all the way up to Cole Creek. Correct. That was one thing also. Yeah. As I was reading through some stuff I Yeah. The the general plan has it go even further. So that could be another potential discussion. Uh but not tonight. So, uh, the one thing the the main No, it doesn't focus on this conversation tonight. Um, I know that the downtown committee Can we go back on your video? Sure. I'm trying to What are you wanting to see? 200.

Do you want to see the actual zone all the way to 400 South? So, this is the general plan map now. And so, this red you can see coming down to 400 South here. Okay. It takes in all the frontage along Main Street. some property that doesn't necessarily front Main Street, but it it does not include the property continuing down uh Center Street, but that's already zoned as downtown commercial, but it continues all the way out to Cole Creek. But your proposal Well, this is our proposal only has to do with what's currently zoned downtown, not with what the general plan. Okay. Okay. That's that Thank you, Carter. Well, we can't Yeah. Until somebody reszones. Okay.

It's not going to do anything. So, the only people that would be affected by this immediately or whenever this change happens would be those that are currently zoned this way. Correct, Randall? I'm assuming I'm Okay. So, the main um idea behind this, as you can imagine, has to do with gas stations. Yes.

And that's one of the things we're going to talk about. Um so, a little bit of background. About four years ago, this uh a previous downtown committee, Councilman Phillips was on that committee at that time. Um I believe you were, weren't you? They brought through a major redo of the downtown of the historic downtown. There was a lot of changes to the table of uses. Um gas stations were one of them, but it was but it's funny then we never even talked about it. I was on the planning commission at the time and it was just one of those things that there was lots of other changes that were bigger that seemed to get a little bit more attention. But it got it got recommended from the downtown uh historic downtown committee. It made it through planning commission with a positive recommendation. It made it through the first work meeting of city council. One council member happened to be absent that night. And then when it got to the action meeting, the whole thing blew up big time and lots of people were here. It there was no discussion during the work meeting necessarily and then we got to the action meeting and the whole thing didn't happen. So, um I think just giving you my personal opinion, you know, there was a lot of upset people at that point and so the whole thing just kind of got put on the back burner and we kind of just sat on it for a couple of years and Maverick has come in and here we are again. And so I just wanted to um there are other possible changes that are going to be looked at and we do have a few today. This is not just gas stations. We'll go through the table of uses. There are a few other minor changes, but I'm a believer of part of something is better than all of nothing. And so before they tried to do too much at once and that kind of I think was the ultimate demise to this change. And so now I'm going to just focus on a few other smaller things and we'll see if we can get somewhere. So if we could go to the table of uses then and Don at any time if you want to. So um as we're just we're the third column over. Is that the column we're looking at?

Yes. Third column. Third column over. So let's just go till we find the first red one. So here would be our first one. Um beer parlors or alcohol drinking establishments. Obviously, we already have some drinking establishments in our historic downtown, so that's probably one that we need to just clean it up a little bit and go ahead and allow for things that we already allow for would probably be the best way to put it. Yeah, we've at least got one I could think of. I think the winery is actually zoned to mixed use. Oh, I mean, but it it's part of the down part of the down,

but it's in that Yeah, it's in that area. So, that's one area that we uh have changed from non-permitted to permitted. uh breweries and wineries greater than 3,000 square ft² no smaller than 3,000 ft of production area. So because I would imagine once you get over that then you're almost an industrial manufacturing situation. So uh again that goes along you know in our in our case handinand with the uh

with the alcohol drinking establishment because they're the same place. So as we keep going so this is the other change. So, convenience stores, uh, less than 5,000 square feet with fuel islands. So, um, this is the big one. This is the one that, uh, I brought this forward mostly so we could change. So, the, you know, and I do want to make sure that we think ahead and we think about unforeseen consequences and those types of things. I did talk to Randall today to confirm a few things. So within this current downtown zone, which goes 200 north, 200 north, 200 south, okay,

to the north side of the intersection of 200 South, not the south side of the intersection. So hey, at any time if you want to also hop in. Um, so I mean, I'm just presenting as kind of our plan, but um, yeah. Yeah, for sure. We'll have him because I, you know, I know they've discussed it many times and I was recently appointed to that uh committee, but I have not yet been to a meeting. So, sorry, I was a little bit late, so I apologize for that. I guess I maybe missed like what what is the reason people want the gas stations off of the

Well, I mean, you just go back to and we'll go to that. I'm actually going to give that to Brent because since he's the one that's been with the downtown committee and they the ones that have discussed this many times. But I think it just goes back to what do you truly want and feel like your historic downtown is and that's that's where we need to make the decision what types of things belong in a historic downtown and what types of things don't belong in a historic downtown. Now, if you notice those convenience stores, um that that definition or as we have them on the table of uses all include fuel islands. So, I mean, essentially, it's probably more the fuel part than the actual store itself that most people would probably consider not something they would want to see in their downtown.

Was it not have fuel in historic times? I don't I guess I don't understand the break here. several like I would feel there were probably more gas stations in our historic era here on Main Street than there are now. Yeah. Do you want to take Well, let me go through the rest of the changes and then we'll go because there are a couple other ones. I don't want to derail us. I thought maybe I missed it.

So, just one thing to keep in consideration though because I do want to make sure we think about unforeseen consequences. We do have current So, currently we now have three gas stations that would all fall under in this uh historic downtown zone. You have the chevron next to Hermes. You have the new Maverick. And then you also have the shell uh in front of Ace Hardware. So all three of those would fall under this area. They would become non-conforming uses if this were to change. So that means business as usual for them. Uh if they were to try to expand their business, then that would be uh essentially not that would be non-permitted at that time. if they tried to uh extend that non-permitted use. Carter, can I take you back one?

Yeah. The current zone for the one next to Hermes is not downtown commercial. It doesn't go that far. The general plan is to go that way. Does have it, but does Okay. It only goes to 200 North. Okay. So, it does get the shell though. The shell. It does get Yeah. Does it get the shell? I thought it got the shell. So, the shell and the Maverick. I apologize. The shell. So, the shell KB right here. That's too far south, isn't it? No, that's across from It's right next to our property where Lunt Mower is. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess it would be. You're right. So, do they still do gas there? No. Are the gas pumps still active? I don't know. I thought they were, but is it the one with the TTO? Yes. Yes. Yes, you can still get gas. You just That's the only thing. And then you go and get You can get gas there.

Yeah. So, there are three. I knew there were three. I just didn't know which. So, there are three. So again, um if they were to ever pull a permit and to expand those businesses, that would be a non-permitted use at that point. And so they would have options. I I as I talked to Randall, they would have options at that point to go to the board of adjustments and ask for a variance, but they would be a non not a variance. What the board would be doing on that is determining whether or not whatever changes they're making would be an expansion of a non-conforming use. There you go. Um, generally if it's anything that's going to expand, like how many vehicles are going to be coming, customers, things like that, you'll probably find they'll say that it's a expansion of it. Yeah.

So, most likely your result similar to what we did with uh um Maverick was probably going to council for some type of development agreement would be your best option. So, what other changes do we have on there? Uh, we've got electronic. So, here's another one. electronic equipment sales and service less than or greater to 2400 square feet. So, I mean, you have uh Mountain Mountain West computers. I mean, that would be considered, in my opinion, electronic store. They're already in our historic downtown. There weren't a lot of computers in the historic era, was there? No. They were bigger than this room.

Lots of historic. What's the reasoning behind the no electronics? Why was it back then? No. No, we're No, now we're allowing. We're going from not being allowed to being allowed. The idea is I mean, why is it not allowed? I That's because they don't want a circuit city or Best Buy to come and demolish downtown buildings. Yeah. You don't want a Best Buy in the middle of your historic downtown. That's the only fear I can think of. Yeah. Was the big box stores at the time. I mean, they already had disappearing. I know. It's kind of a weird thing. Little Best Buy is going to want to come do a 2400 foot store. Hey,

you know, the idea, I mean, in your historic downtown, the things you want is you want places for people to eat, for people to shop. So, retail and eating are really your two main, you know, those are the things that we would like to see office buildings. Thanks. So, sorry, Brent. Let's keep going. Is there anything else or is that the last order? Okay, perfect. I'm gonna turn it over to Brent. He'll kind of give you the the answer to Jason's question hopefully and talk a little bit more about uh where the historic downtown committee is their point of view and where they're coming from on this.

So Brandrew downtown historic committee this time instead of whatever else I've done but uh probably the main reason we're a little bit worried about uh convenience stores there and I'm I'm going to start by saying I like what Maverick has done in that area. I mean it looks very nice. It it holds with what we're trying to do here. I think what we're worried now is that if you put in another G gas stations are not getting smaller, convenience stores, gas stations, they're getting larger. And you know, they had to come in to get a a variance to go 5,700 ft instead of the 5,000 square foot limit that was there at the time. That's going to be, I think, in the next two or three years, small for convenience stores. When I was back east and I saw the new convenience stores going in, you start at 10,000 square feet there and you have 34 pumps. So I tell people what we're seeing is saying maybe it's more of a space occupant thing that if you're going to put another one in the downtown area, you're probably going to have to tear something down. And so that's what the the thing is. It's not because I think what the Maverick turned out to be,

you know, there's already a square footage. There's already a square footage written on the right. You see, our worry is they're going to get bigger. They can't be bigger than 5,000. But but then and you could say you could leave it alone, too, but then you still need the acreage for where you park and how many cars coming in there. It's just you don't see many gas stations go in on the spots that we do have, you know, gas stations doing in there. The Maverick even went in on a smaller site than they usually go on. Right. That's I I guess I still don't understand the

you're you Well, you could leave it saying, "Well, we could leave it as it is and and the little ones can't go in there, but then if you still have to tear down one just to put in parking, we I think what we're saying is that the downtown community says if you're going to tear down some more buildings, you really need to come in and do a deal, you know, need to do a development agreement with the city and have a good reason to tear down what we have left in the downtown. because you may I seek clarification? Are we asking for a recommendation tonight on just the historic downtown? Yes. Okay. Then then

so let's pretend for a moment I buy the old Maverick. Yes, there's a deed restriction on a gas station, but we'll make believe there's not. Okay, we'll we'll pretend there's not. Um, could I put a gas station's there? You you it is you can use the building as it is. No, no, but but let's pretend I wonder I I own that land. The gas station's not there. Let's talk about another building. Let's say you buy uh in a few years when we sell the Max Torres building and you want to tear it down. Okay. But that's in the historic downtown. I'm talking

Well, we're not we're not talking any other zone. So, so this change that we're proposing because they have the the master planned area and then we have the the current area. This would not change stop someone. Can I clarify real quick? So, that property is currently not zoned downtown commercial. But if it w if it got change if it was is it general plan downtown commercial? It is. So, if it was changed and this ordinance passed, then the gas station would be Excuse me. Prohibited there. So, we this we'd be prohibiting all the way up to Imperial Door and Window.

Well, no. Again, if if they're satisfied with the zone they have already, you can go pull a building permit for what's allowed in the zone as it's currently zoned. The only reason you're going to take that property, so assume you own it, you go in and say, "Well, what I want to build doesn't work in whatever it is, general commercial, well, central commercial, whatever it is." um you only if what you want doesn't work in the current zone would you then try to change it and then the council would most likely limit you to going with the general plan. Okay, but you don't need to ever ask for that zone change. Okay, it's already commercial and it's broader than the downtown commercial. So, build it. Okay, that that was that was where needed my clarification. I haven't seen the city force a zone change on anybody in the time I've been here.

I've seen forced annexation and that's what we're saying. We're not forced zone changes. We're not worrying about any of those or or expanding the downtown. It's actually a very small zone. It's just trying to preserve what buildings we have in the area. And so I guess like I said, if we left it that way, I guess what we just want to say is we don't want to see somebody coming and saying, you know, we got this little corner here where you turn and go to the university. Let's tear down the Max Torres building. Let's tear down these because they are going to be available in three or four years here. So, so it's preserving that group of buildings. Everybody's heard of this new company called Tesla. Do we consider Tesla gas station charging stations equivalent to a gas station? Service station.

It most likely because this one is specifically about fuel islands. Most likely you're going to hit the service station one which is also already not permitted in the downtown commercial except for Maverick. Again, difference between which one we put them under. Okay. So they they clearly fit within the convenience store with fuel islands. If you don't have fuel islands, if you just went pure Tesla like we have over right, different setup. So we don't have as much of a problem with that. Um with elsewhere because it's just allowed in normal commercial, but downtown commercial, I don't think it'd be allowed. At least the way I read it. Service stations are not allowed. Yeah. So if

So that would be that would require an addin to this table if we wanted to start saying Tesla's okay, but gas pumps are not. Can So behind Maverick, excuse me, not Maverick, behind Bulock Drugs, we have the the the large parking lot, the Coven parking lot. Does that parking lot fall within the downtown commercial? Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. If I wanted to go work a deal and say, I'm I want to put 20 charging stations on the back of that property, I couldn't under this new propos under under the current one. You can under the under the current one. I can cannot cannot. Okay. Can I can I make some comments to bring us back on track? Sorry.

Well, I was on track. Um I want to see what we consider fueling.

So I I know we're talking about the gas station, but and that's kind of what this was open led with, but we're talking about multiple things um of changes. The majority of these changes being proposed are loosening restrictions. And to clarify in the gas station, the intent of the gas station, you can argue semantics about historic, not historic. That's actually not the point. The point is to preserve the old buildings, the aesthetic that we currently have, and to ensure that nothing will come in to tear those buildings down. That's that's the main premise. So whether or not you agree with gas stations or not gas stations, just know that that's that's the premise behind this is trying to preserve what we have. Um, and that that's the real intent. So, I I know we're talking a lot about the gas station because that's the more controversial, I guess. But I just don't want you guys to also overlook that there's thing the rest of the stuff is actually making things.

That's why I don't have any issue with the rest of the stuff. That's why I haven't this one. It's not because it's controversial because it's saying we're going to limit what you can do with your property in this area because there's one product type we don't like. Right.

What it feels like to me. And what I think is, you know, then I I would just suggest that you make a recommendation based on that and then see what the interest is on the recommendation because you're you like the historic downtown council is also a recommending body. So as a recommending body, you know, what's your holistic view on that? And I I don't know. I I what I would like to see though is if Brent could finish his presentation and then questions um so that you guys can then talk as a body. Sorry. Thank you.

And I I see uh and I see where you're coming from because when you talk about property rights, you don't want to see the one thing, you know, not permitted. But if you just go down the list there, even farm equipment, sales and rental service, why is that one not permitted? For the same reason. You'd have to tear down buildings in order to put tractors out there and show up because the

the building that Image Pro in was the original tractor store where you'd come and buy your tractors in the downtown, right? Do you remember Carrie Jones and his that's where you got every part for out there? It's not that we're just saying, hey, we're trying to copy the history where I think it's uh you know, they didn't they didn't serve drinks back then like we do now. They didn't do all these different things. I think the idea is it is trying to preserve the buildings and the look of the downtown. Not would So wouldn't an ordinance say you can't tear down a building make more sense than or don't want a type of building we think is more likely to tear down a building?

I mean you could you could say something like that. Now, if somebody really but if somebody say came up with a really wonderful and I I want I don't want to be smart when I say this because I really like I said I think we we saw Maverick come in trying to do a lot of really great things that you don't see at their other gas stations to make it fit in the downtown. But if somebody comes and said, "Hey, I wanted to come in and tear down the building." They really need to sit with the city council. And then there would be a, you know, we'd have to go to the development agreement stage instead of just saying right now you just can't come in and tear down a building and then put one in because you can do it in the zone. That would take a whole different slew of regulations.

Yeah. So the only reason why Maverick has the look and feel that it does is because they wanted 700 more square feet. And so otherwise they were just going to put basically a stucco building like what you see in the South Maverick. And I think the intent is to whether they permit or not permit something to do exactly what you said Jayce is to um make it so that they have to come in and have a discussion to ensure that it has that look and feel. So and maybe and maybe can I show my ignorance here? I I don't know who you are and your position. I'm David Johnson. I'm the economic development director for the city and the county. Thank you. Sorry. Forgive me. I should have said that in the start. Thank you.

Yeah. And and maybe we should because I think that there's two new buildings in the downtown. Both of them greatly add to it. And I know I'm not trying to just say that to suck up to you because you put a hotel in the downtown. But you know, when you when you see some of the new stuff going on there, it's great. It's just hard to see somebody coming in now and just saying, first of all, if they tried to do a smaller gas station right now, those just don't work financially. So, are we going to allow somebody to come in and put in two pumps in a building and you know,

but doesn't that already solve itself because it doesn't work financially? That's all I'm saying is like right now if I built anything on the historic center, I could tear it down and build something else. But but just because it's a type that might have a more likelihood, wouldn't we rather just have rules that say what we want things to look like and the general feel for it and then like then like like Maverick looks fantastic it fits. And that's because of a lot of very concerted effort from staff otherwise it wouldn't look and fit. But that's what I'm saying is if we make so like the historic district has rules of how everything looks, then we don't have to just start picking an industry and say like I don't want that. And that's why we did the building materials,

right? And I think I fantastic

because then that allows people to conform to to do something they want to do. But this is not letting them conform. This is already taking something that's already restricted to 5,000 square feet and saying, "Well, now we don't even want to consider anything." Any questions for Brent? Otherwise, I think we're just looking for a recommendation to get the perspective from all the so that we can then take that to the city council. And and please keep in mind as you're going through this, there are multiple recommendations. You don't have to agree or disagree with all of them. It's not a full package you have to accept or reject. You can say I'm okay with parts, not okay with parts. Just make sure your final motion specifically states what you're recommending positive, what you're recommending negative.

Yeah. And I and I would add that if all of you feel the same way as Jace, make that known. If you feel different or if there's a mix, that's all that's all we're doing is we're just trying to say, hey, what's what's the mix of perspective after kind of hearing that? But what do you consider historic down? What how when you say historic, you go back 50 years, a hundred years. What's the look or the time frame? Because when I grew up, there was probably eight gas stations on Main Street. Right. Scott, should let you give the definition. Scott has the zoning map real quick.

Well, it's according to the state and of course the federal government. Scott Phillips City Council. And I think I need to leave because there's three of us here now. Um we uh it is 50 years or older. 50 years or older. Lunt Motor Company would qualify as an historic building. And it is an historic building. All the old gas stations that were here previously, they got tore down for all kinds of they were but they got tore down and they got turned into a phone company. Well, a motel got torn down, I guess. Um a Chinese restaurant.

Since S was brought up here, I just have a question. Jace, can you tell uh just for clarification from me, what is the problem in your mind in not permitting it in historic downtown? I just don't think it it benefits the town to say we can't have a certain type of building that already is is there that's always been on here. You mean use a certain type of use is what you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean it's it's going to require a different type of thing. Um but but it's already limited on square footage. Um it should already be limited on building material and overall look. I just guess I don't understand why with those two already being set why say okay and then and not even well I can I will only and that's even me saying I don't even think anyone's going to build another gas station. I mean, when one comes, it it usually scares off anything else in the next little bit sometimes. They usually see a Chevron on one corner and a texico on another because they know they're going to get not when there's a maverick in there. Well, whatever.

But I I guess what I uh I'm only speaking for me as chair. I was on this committee for a lot of years and I have a deep love for this community and our historic downtown as I think all of you know. What I don't want to happen and and I'm nothing against Maverick. I go to Maverick. I I like their product. Uh, but I don't want another large convenience store fuel island thing in our historic downtown. I don't want someone to buy your property and then put another Maverick station or whatever it is. It doesn't have to be Maverick because I don't think that's going to enhance our historic downtown. That's all. I don't think you'd ever see another so gas station just for the restrictions. That's why we

but less protect ourselves. Well, we took our gas pumps out because it but why not protect ourselves so it doesn't it wasn't worth having that's all anyway 50 years of or older is what the federal say a question of you Scott would you be opposed if we and and I have no problem saying no gas station no no no gas stations in historic but if we're going to consider charging stations for electric cars, a fuel station. Well, I don't know. That's a different definition. And that's what I'm asking.

That's what I'm asking if we could incorporate all of this into the into the ordinance. Let's say, let's pick on Linds for example. They wanted to put 10 charging stations in there for electric cars or or you know, like again behind Bulocks, they're the store that sticks out. We have them. We have it in our historic downtown right now. Electric charging station. Yes. Where we have them at Town and Country and we have them at the New Hampton in the Town and the is Town and Country in Well, it's just barely across the street, but we have them at the Hampton Inn. There's nothing There's nothing wrong with those historic downtown. I have no problem with that. But they're not in the windows.

Yeah, they are. Yes, they are. The Hampton Inn is in historic downtown. Can I jump in real quick? I mean, it is there. There's probably a nuance between a service station and having some charging stations that are associated with hotel

or with lens or something like that. Now, if Tesla came in, wanted to buy a building and just kind of like what they did at Culver's, you know, where they're going to put in 30 of these things, I think at that point, we're getting we're crossing the line is this is a primary use. this isn't just an an in an in an in an in an in an in an in an in an in an in an inciliary uh benefit that that a hotel is providing right so I wouldn't consider that a different use I think the this discussion is very important and Brent I don't want to speak for the committee but my recollection of a lot of the discussions and the committee and I was around for that that first round that that just blew up that Carter mentioned that that didn't didn't go too well at city council right but I think part of the overall whole uh you know idea was what what is special about the downtown right what kind of and these these are kind of lofty words I'm going to use but but the feel the the vibe so to speak what are you chasing downtown that that's hard to define right and the mix of uses does come into that as an example we we've talked about residential uses downtown we don't want to see somebody or a developer come in and say, "Hey, we're going to blow this block out and it's just going to be town homes." We would rather see those residential uses above the commerce, right? And that's something we're going to work on. I think that's coming from the committee as well. Um, but it's a difficult discussion because you are you are talking about who who's going to win and who's going to lose downtown as far as who's who's actually invited. the historical component. We don't have any uh we don't have a historical district. We we tried to push that through the historical preservation committee and we and we didn't get that. That that was actually a potential thing that that could incentivize people that have historic buildings like like the Levits

where you can chase tax credits, you can chase some of those things that that will encourage new uses and try to preserve those buildings. we didn't get that through. So, I I think as you discuss these uses, it's the overall um and I know you guys could describe it better than me, but that the overall look, feel, and what kind of activity levels do you want downtown? And that's what I was going to add. You you wouldn't want a storage unit place, right? That's that's a dead zone. You put one of those mid block, you don't generate folks walking downtown. You don't get the activity levels that you're that you're chasing. It's not a destination for your downtown. So, I think that's something to kind of keep in mind as we look at these.

That's what I was going to add. In in any zone, you have restrictions and allowances on uses, right? And the reason why the historic downtown committee is saying this is what do we want in our downtown? We want restaurants. We want boutiques. And and while maybe we don't think another gas station will go there, they thought their thought was well, if something's going to develop, we want to incentivize certain types of businesses to be built. That's the real intent. Now whether you agree with that or disagree with that, that that's and the historic thing again is subjective. Every community that has a historic downtown, they actually have their own vibe, look and feel for their historic downtown. And that's all we're doing here is having a discussion is what do we want ours to look like? And that's why this recommendation's coming here. And we're not talking right or wrong. So different opinions. And that's why your recommendation is important is what do what do you as a planning commission feel it should look and feel like? And that's why the historic downtown committee also did that. So yeah, it's it's subjective. It's just saying what do we want?

Before you before you start, we've we've kind of already wandered into this anyway, but it is a public hearing and everybody's talking anyway, so let's formally open the public hearing and um then we can just all

Perfect. No, my just my two closing thoughts on this would be um you know, one, we talk about what we say we want to have. I mean, why do we even have a historic district? Why do we even call it something different? And why do we have it to be something different if we don't get to choose and we get to decide what we feel is best for our city and we have in that area. You know, otherwise it's just another street and anything that can happen anywhere else on Main Street could happen in that exact spot. And then my only other closing thought on that would be, you know, and again, I have nothing against Maverick. I love Maverick. I shop at Maverick almost every day. Not necessarily always that one, but I do shop at Maverick. But I think that was an example of we talk about well what are the chances of another one

look at the they spared no expense that is the land that they were able to acquire and the amount of stuff they had to demolish and the money that was spent. It shows you that there's big money in that and they don't money is the number one thing for them and they will take down any historic building or any building that gets in their way to be able to build those because that's I mean that's their business and there's nothing wrong with that. But so yeah, you could have one anywhere. I mean you could we could end up with one anywhere up or down Main Street is what I think. I don't think to say that oh we won't end up with another one. Well, we probably never thought we'd end up with one there in the first place, but we did. So, could you those are Could you educate me again?

Our I I I I'm totally mixed up on our historic downtown. I knew it went to 200 north. Yes. And our historic downtown goes how far south? 200 south. The north side. See, I saw it went to the to the south side of Center Street. No, because there's nothing historic. You can look at the map. Look at the map right here. Well, I have a hard time distinguishing some of these colors. Put Will you put the arrow right on the end of the corner where it ends top? Yeah. Hold on. He's going to get rid of And I don't know what's historic about everything south of Center Street. Can I Can I jump real quick? Yeah, go ahead. Science Bank. Thank you, Carter.

So, Councilman Jet, that black line you see on the screen Oh, did it? I didn't know it is what was uh considered the historical downtown. Now, The dotted one. The dotted one. Yes, sir. So, in essence, that's that's a line in the sand, though, right? It it it has no ordinances tied to it. South, but this was passed. Tommy's answering your question. You need to listen. Go ahead. So, that black line you see on the map that goes all the way to Cole Creek and I think 400 South if I'm not mistaken. Okay, if you look at the legend there, if you if you open city information, Kent, could you expand on that just for a sec?

Uh that is the what was turn that the downtown historic district. If you turn that off, that black line was designated on the zoning map. I I can't remember when it was shortly after I got here in 2018 or so. The idea behind that was because we were doing a lot of studies with the historical preservation commission. We were pushing uh to get some historical districts established and that was the target area. But there really is no teeth associated with this line that you see on the map. The but the ordinance change I think is what people traditionally consider our historic downtown. U which is probably a little subjective but that would be from 200 north to 200 south. that is where these ordinance changes would apply today. It does not apply to that historic district uh designation you see on the map.

And and I think to answer your question, Mr. Jet, or to kind of go along with it, I mean, there's no there's nobody here that thinks that we have a massive historic downtown. As far as cities go, we probably have one of the smaller historic downtowns. And I think part of the worry is if we don't designate an area and maybe even make it it's going to creep. I mean, we they would push it to the very five buildings that go from right here to right here, and that would be it. You know, if if we don't So, I think the buffer is probably a little further than what we would consider our historic downtown. But if we don't keep that buffer, that modernization is going to come right up to the front door of what we consider, and you're going to have historic downtown be from this intersection to the next intersection, and that's it.

I have a suggestion. Yeah,

we have a historic preservation commi commission. I have the world of confidence in them. I think you've done amazing things. I uh I think we're rehashing something that's going over and over and over again. And I I definitely approve what you guys have uh suggested. I don't quite know how to phrase that to give a positive recommendation, but uh on all of the uh suggestions that you've made. Um I'm turning it over to the experts and I consider you guys to be the experts and uh I'm in favor of of what you've proposed. So that's why we have a historic preservation commission. Uh we have a planning commission here and we may give positive and recommend and negative recommendations and oftenimes it's frustrating to me to give a positive or negative recommendation and see it completely overturned the next night. But that's the way life goes. But uh I I have confidence in you. Uh there are times that I yield to engineering, to legal, to other people because they're the experts and I think you put a lot of work into this and I think we just need to roll with what you've suggested because I like it. I think it's very good. We can sit here and hash it all night and ask questions, but I I like what we've done. Are we appropriate to make a

open meeting? Yeah. Is anybody else like to make a comment or presentation of any sort? If if not, we'll close the public hearing and entertain a motion. I'll attempt a motion. I I would uh move that we give a positive recommendation on the item that's uh um for ordinance text amendment that's been proposed. I like it. and uh uh section 26-11 or I II whatever that is-21 uh pertaining to removing permitted use in downtown commercial.

Did I phrase that? Okay. Yep. We have a motion. Is there a second? I had parliamentary procedure in my eye classes in high school. Excellent. Mr. Brown, I'd be pre pleased. No, they'd be happy with you. It dies for lack of second. Um, no, I'm just trying to I'll make a positive. I I'll second your your motion. We have a motion and a second then. Uh, all in favor? I I I. Any opposed? Nay.

Motion carries. Thank you. That concludes our planning commission meeting tonight. So, we'll adjourn. Mr. Cap, you'll have to get on the schedule for next time. Sorry. We're going to visit. Have to go on the agenda for next time. Yeah. What? Okay. Jeez, I got this. Hey, your wife did a great job with Moy Tawa, by the way. Dan