Zoning Board of Appeals - Regular Meeting

condition at all, I'm just talking for myself now, then that guide wire, you may not be bothered by it. You may not be bothered by the fence. But these are issues that you should address. And I'll again say why. One, it's going to affect the resell or remortgaging of your property, given when that ever happens. Because I think most people looking for houses would not want that in their backyard. Would not.

Now, was it a problem that is anchored in our neighbor's yard? It technically is not anchored in our yard. It's anchored in what that would be 8 Bisbee. Over your airspace. Okay.

I think it's a hazard. I think it's a safety thing, too.

Well, and you even admitted to us that you had to make sure that the grandkids weren't climbing up on the wire. Oh, it was him.

It's an enticement. It's a nuisance. What I'm surprised at is the planning board that allowed that to be a subdivision and they didn't at least acknowledge or make... a change or a condition associated with the approval of that subdivision at that time. We're cleaning up something that previously was done.

Now, would this contingency be based on the answer that they would move the wire, or if they say, we're not touching that, it is what it is? I think that's a real one that I'm concerned about.

So my opinion, Steve, is that the guidewire has always been there. The topic of discussion right now is they're looking for relief from the east side. and whether we're willing to grant that relief. I think the fence portion of it, I would make that a condition because that needs to move. I mean, we know about it and it needs to happen sooner than later. I think I still would like to have Eversource respond to you and provide some type of response back to us. And at that point, maybe have a representative or a senator reach out to Eversource to try to put a little pressure on them if you don't get leverage on them. It's a life safety issue more than anything. That's how you need to approach it.

I think you had told me when we were at the House that you weren't even sure whether the standard to which that guide wire is attached is even working anymore because they put in the new, more modern.

Right, I think it's a lateral support for that high-tension tower. Or not a lateral support, but it's a support, some kind of.

For the original one, not for the new ones. They put in new transmission lines? Is that what they did?

Yes, whole new towers.

So they've used those towers. Correct.

That's what I'm saying. It's not being used. get it out of there.

They would have to take down the whole high tension tower probably.

Well, they're concerned about the torque of that top because it turns, it literally turns left after your property. It basically goes down and turns left. So it's the torque of that tower is what they're trying to attain.

That was the original purpose. It may not have that original purpose anymore. It may not serve that original purpose because of the modern stanchions that are out there.

But they could be using those as secondary lines, too, Steve. So I mean, that's how the sources call it at that point. But I think you do not get a response. You need to let us know.

Right.

Or whatever response you get. It doesn't matter.

Good, bad, or different. So I guess the question now goes over to the chapter 48 considerations. If we are inclined to grant the sideline relief of 8.6 feet, call it 9, how do we phrase that? Is it shape? Is it topography? Or is it soil? The relief you're asking for? Yeah. Because this would be under 48. This is a variance on a special permit. So it's got to be fit into one or more of those three exceptions under the law. Otherwise, we're not empowered to give it to you.

Well, I would say what would the easement fall under as far as would that be topography or, because that's the, because if they could go back instead of making it wider, they could go longer and they could, you know, that's kind of where I see the problem at is You could almost say, yeah, you could say I'll still give you the same size, but you'd be going straight back. But where the easement is there and.

Well, it would have to go back and to the left if that were the case. Right. Because the property line has changed.

So I guess what would the easement fall under as far as one of those conditions?

Yeah, they obviously can't go back.

Right.

So if they're stuck, the only way they can go...

So the easement affects the shape, then?

Yeah.

Yeah, the shape, that's what I'm saying.

Yeah.

Configuration. Yeah. I'll defer to the chair.

The crown wears heavy on the head. Mr. Barrington.

So I'm in agreement that because of that easement, they cannot go put that anywhere else on their property.

So you're saying shape? Yep, definitely shape. And Ms. Dole, you're on record. And Mr. Sullivan, same? I probably agree. Mr. Poirier? Yes. All right, so that gives us cover under state law. Do we reschedule this for a quick continuance so that we can get feedback from you folks on what you're being told by Eversource? Or do we issue, do we come to a decision, grant relief, conditioned upon Evan Swartz getting back to people on the issue of the fence and the guide wire. How do you want to do this?

If I may, Steven, I think the fence to me is a, in my understanding from what you had said, they put it up and they put it in place, but the homeowners took responsibility for that fence, maintaining it. Yeah. So as much as I think they'll, have a little bit of leverage to say, you put it in the wrong spot in the very beginning, can you come up with... I think taking it down is probably the first step.

You know, he and I have discussed it, and, you know, my plan is... because there's a lot of work that's got to go on in the backyard with the septic system and so on and so forth. I was going to put up a temporary fence right across a wire fence with posts, tear down the other fence, and then I'm done with that. And then when the project is done, put up a nice fence. But in the interim, the other fence will be gone and I'm

That's one less thing you've got to worry about at that point. You crossed that off the list. It's all done.

Incorporate that into the building. We're going to be in contact with Eversource anyway. Let's kill Hubert with one stone. Don't take on this work and the expense associated with that work if you can convince Eversource that they need to get back over there, not only take the fence down, but get rid of that guide wire, which I believe is probably not serving any purpose at this point in view of the other stanchions that have been installed in the rear of your property.

And if they do still need support, I would think at this point maybe they could reevaluate and tie it from a different location that would be away from all of those houses so that none of you have to deal with that. It's fine to have an easement and bring a truck in and service and do whatever they want to do, run wires or helicopters or whatever, but as far as having that guide wire run through the middle of your yard.

How they addressed it previously when it was a condition existed, they put a pole with an angle support to that pole and then attach it to the pole.

And that would work. Yeah.

I don't see them ever source coming in and removing that tower. because then they got the tower down further and further and wherever this starts from. It'd be moving the anchor. And if they're moving, if they're using it as a backup line, they aren't going to want to. They're going to say, hey, I've got an easement. We have an easement there. It's our easement. We have a right to have those wires up above. We do question the angle of the one coming down through your yard. Anybody in the right mind would.

To Stephen's point, it's a life safety issue. It's a life safety issue. That's the biggest point you've got to make to them. Just tell them, little Johnny hurt himself, and I'd hate to have episodes consumed again. Still.

So do people want a short continuance on this matter, or do they want... to close the hearing, go to a vote, and then conditions.

A or B? If I may, I would say take a vote on it to prove that there's some kind of conditions we want to attach. I hate to put them off again.

Mr. Porter.

I'm feeling the same way. Ms. Dahl.

There's how many days do we have when they put the group work in?

We're good?

Yeah.

What do you want to do, Ms. Dawson?

I would say vote on it.

Mr. Sullivan. I say vote on it as long as we can make sure that the conditional defense.

Yeah, we'll talk about conditions. Mr. Barrington. Go forward?

Definitely go forward. He's very firm about it. Yep. I felt it.

Do either one of you have anything you'd like to add to tonight's discussion? So do I hear a motion to close the hearing? Motion.

Second.

All in favor? Aye. So this hearing is closed and now we go to a proposed finding that I want to read into the record and have you folks vote on up here. The proposed finding would be this. That we find that owing to circumstances relating to soil conditions shape indoor topography of the structures are a lot but not affecting the district generally. A literal enforcement of the provisions of the bylaw would involve substantial hardship to the petitioner. Relief may be granted without substantial detriment to the public good and without nullifying or substantially derogating from the intent or purpose of the bylaw. Do I hear a motion to adopt that finding? So moved. Do I hear a second?

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Now we move to the vote on the decision. that we decide that an easterly side setback variance should be granted in the amount of nine feet does anybody want to move motion do i hear a second second all in favor aye all right so you got your variance thank you so you're on Second, going to third. Okay. Now, conditions. Does anybody want to attempt to frame an appropriate condition with regard to the fence and the guide wire?

That's a tough one because I don't want to hold the project up.

Here's what we can maybe put as a condition. That the permit will not be granted until such period of time as you document your contact with Eversource on both the fence issue and the cable. That should be in the record before any construction begins. So we're going to hold you until that happens. I don't want any construction beginning out there, my opinion. I would not want any construction beginning out there until you folks follow through on that.

Now what constitutes as an approved documentation? Would it be email chains, some kind of form of letter from Eversource? Or a combination. Combination.

Or a combination of the two. We need to see something in writing.

Would there be a proper way to submit those, either email or the... Not to me.

This board is off limits between meetings unless we go and visit the property. By the way, I'm still waiting for my blueberry muffin. I had a rough week. So, yeah, that's got to be filed with the nice ladies downstairs in the planning department. Okay. And we want to see something from Eversource, not just from you, but we want to see something from Eversource about what they intend to do, if anything. I mean, we have no authority, as Mr. Sullivan has pointed out, to compel Eversource to do anything here. But you're going to be living in that property with your family. I would imagine that you would want to get your boundaries straightened away and that guide wire repositioned, if at all possible. You got little kids already?

Yeah, my son's already a danger to himself. I don't need to add that.

You don't need him hanging on that guide wire. Like you used to.

Turned out all right, though. Dad's going to teach him.

Is he genetically predisposed?

I don't know. If we turn off all the lights in this room, will you glow?

Well, I do work in nuclear power, so.

All right. So somebody want to frame that as a condition? Or do you want me to try to do it?

It's all yours.

Thank you. Ms. Dahl, go ahead.

No, absolutely not.

I'll take a shot at it. Yeah, Mr. Correa, please. So the first condition would be that the permit to build will not be granted until the petitioner receives a response from Eversource regarding the issues with the guy wire and the moving of the fence. Well said.

Anybody want to alter that at all? I wouldn't change a word. You see, he's balding because the brain is always working off there. Just today.

Can you say that one more time? No.

It's on a recording. So that's the condition. Does anybody want to make a motion to adopt that condition?

I make a motion to adopt.

Do I hear a second? Second. All in favor? Aye. All right. So that's the first condition. I got one more for you. This grant of your variance will be subject to the plans of record of Madigan Land Surveying LLC. And what is the date of that plan, Mr. Spenato?

It is 7-9-2026.

Is that the modified plan?

Yes, it is.

Okay, we need to get a copy of that. Do you have more than one copy with you? I do. I'll take it. One is fine.

You beat me to it.

Thank you. Make your guy stamp this. No, it looks like he has.

Is that what you're talking about?

It looks like he has. Wet stamp, we can put the condition on it.

Well, do you think for now, so we don't hold them up any longer, that we can go with the conditions?

Yeah, so if you go back to your builder, they should be able to give you a drawing with a wet stamp on it. And it's just so that conditions can be put on there and then it can be officially signed off.

Building plans, you mean?

Yep, that same drawing that you have. Yep, you just want to ask for one with a wet stamp.

To what? A wet stamp. A wet stamp. Oh, not a copy.

Yep. Well, it would be a copy that then would be submitted with your record for the town hall.

Just need to copy that with a wet stamp on it. Yep. Okay. They will know when you say you need a wet stamp. They will know.

And then ask them to put signatory lines on it if they could. Okay.

What sample signatory signs?

I don't know.

I don't know if this is a what?

No, it isn't. I can tell you it isn't. Okay.

And just for my purposes, because I'm the one that ends up writing these decisions.

Okay.

The garage that's there now, is that coming down?

The overhang is coming down. Right. And then it'll be blocked off and one half will be his office and the other half will be storage. but there'll only be a door access. There'll be no garage access. It's not like a car access.

A living space.

That's what he showed us on Saturday.

Yeah, exactly.

As you were facing on the left-hand door. He had a picture drawn on there, and the rest of that was going to be just a wall, essentially.

It's underneath the house.

It's not necessarily a door. And the fence is all on the east side of the property. Correct. That's correct. Okay. So are we good? You understand what we've done? Yes. Yes. And I guess the takeaway for this evening is you got your variance subject to a response from Eversource. And so that's important. That's the leverage that we have to make sure that You follow through with them and they follow through with you. Okay. And hopefully you'll get the kind of relief that I think all of us up here believe you deserve.

Okay.

Rather than leaving him to deal with it after you and your wife are gone. And then I would suggest that if the fence is going to be taken down, either by you or by Eversource, hopefully by Eversource, that you go and have a conversation with the assessors. Because you paid 15 years' worth of taxes on property that's not yours. And that's going to add up to a few bucks, because we're not talking about inches or a couple of feet, are we?

No.

I'm surprised you let it go as long as you did. You weren't aware of it until it was recently surveyed? Well, the things you find out.

The whole development.

yeah it was the um mr madigan was was he said that something that I don't know about, but I guess there's supposed to be points put all down the subdivision.

That's right.

And he said there were none. He found one, and he had to go all the way out to South Meadow Road to get another point, and then he literally had to come back from each property to get the right one.

I think the word you used is appropriate. I think all of us up here were dumbfounded as well. I've never seen anything like this. The combination of that cable being where it is and the fence, not good for you. So we're going to hopefully get those matters addressed sooner rather than later. But in the meantime, the good news is you got your variance. So do what you can to keep hounding them. Don't let that slide.

You can make that point that we were all out there and that as a board that we find that that's a huge problem.

I'm going to give her a call again to follow up tomorrow because I haven't heard since Tuesday.

Yeah, I mean, we're the ones that are making you do this, so you can say... And I'm surprised that the planning board didn't say anything way back when, either just me.

And I got in your ear about this as well. I know you're reluctant or you were reluctant until your son got involved to try to track down the right person at Eversource to have this conversation. But sometimes young people can be more persistent than the older ones.

Her name is Beatrice Lord. She's the engineer for Carver, for the customer service engineer.

You know what I would suggest? I would insist that she come out there and take a view. I would, because you've got the plan to show her, right, with regard to the fence. And even if you take that down yourself, tell her that you're going to send her the bill.

It's enticing a hazard.

That's what it comes down to.

I appreciate the verbiage because that's definitely something I'll use. This is something you've got to be firm about.

And if she stands in your backyard, I don't see how she could find that there's no problem with that.

I'm talking about the cable now. Yeah. I'm sorry? He uses a clothesline. Maybe a zip line once or twice.

And have to have some pretty big clips.

Now, Mr. Barrington often will read into the record the appeal rights of folks who might want to take this up. I don't think that's likely to happen in your case, but if you could read that into the record, that would be great. Yes.

So our decision tonight will be filed with the Town Hall Building Department in the next couple days. Yes. Okay. There's a 20-day appeal period. So that means anybody in your neighborhood can appeal our decision. And then that delays things for a bit. Um, after 20 days, pick up the decision from the building department, and then you will go to the Plymouth Registry of Deeds to file the paperwork. That's where it needs to be filed. And then bring the paperwork back to the building department here, and then they will issue you the permit, the variance.

Okay. Assuming you're in compliance with the condition.

Right, as long as everything else is taken care of there. Okay. So would that be 20 days from tomorrow, today, or...? Yep.

You, well, no.

It'll take a couple days. Please give me at least 24 hours to write this.

You can call and check with them and ask them.

Thank you very much. When I write it and I have to circulate it to these nice folks up here, make sure that they don't want to make any changes. Sometimes they do. So probably early next week we'll get this filed. Sounds good. But remember, it's going to be conditioned on you know what.

Yes.

So you're stuck until that condition is satisfied.

I mean, you've got the 20-day waiting period anyways. So it falls in that period. It's a really good time for you to put a lot of pressure on the power source in the meantime and say, hey, look, they're really just not happy with this.

I'm off next week. I can make as many calls as I want.

Where's her address?

It's in Plymouth. I have it on my phone. I might just show up. Do you know where that is? I do.

That back building? Because my mom used to work there. She used to do the pulls. Just go right in there into the customer service office.

That's actually not a bad idea. I think that might be... Ask for a meeting.

You might get further that way if you actually go to the building. You can't get in through the big gates, but I believe you can get in through the office on the left-hand side.

Thanks. Good to know.

Thank you.

Thank you both for your patience.

Thank you for your time. We thank the board. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And we're going to hopefully get your property improved one way or another.

Thank you very much. Thank you. Good luck. Thank you.

Good luck.

Now, just report back to the planning department once you get the feedback from the engineer, okay? Yes. Thank you. And now we move on to our next case for the evening. And Mr. Barrington, would you kindly read the notice into the record?

The petition was filed, let me go back. Petitioner is Darren Halleman, case number 86-4-3, 243 Meadow Street. The petition was filed seeking a special permit in accordance with sections 290-2-2.4 E, number three, 290-5-2.2 A, 290-5-3.1 and 290-5-3.3 of the Carver zoning bylaw for property located at 243 Meadow Street in Carver, Mass. Assessors map 86, lot 4-3. So as to construct a detached two-story, two-car garage, with ridge height of 23 feet to include an unfinished attic. Total square footage of 1,710. 700 square feet is allowed as of right in the residential agricultural district. You read that beautifully, Mr. Barrington. I've been practicing all night.

Thank you. Now, I observe that Mr. Helleman is present. That's Mr., and you are?

I'm Mrs. Gerlach, and his last name is actually Holliman. It's Holliman. They spelled my name wrong.

Holliman. Holliman, H-O-L-L-I-M-A-N. H-A-L-U? No, H-O-L-L-I-M-A-N. H-O.

Yeah, just H-O, not H-A. Wait a moment.

Let me get this again. I'm sorry.

H-O-L-L-I-M-A-N. Holliman. Thank you.

And you are?

Laura Gerlach. I'm the wife.

Okay. So I tell people this. Assume that we have reviewed everything already.

Okay.

That's a good assumption. Take that to the back. Okay. I'm not sure that... any of the other boards do that kind of homework but we do so we are somewhat familiar with what it is that you're looking to do and i'm going to go through what i understand it is that you're asking us for and if i get any of the facts wrong you interrupt me But you are proposing to construct a two-story, square-foot, detached garage at your property. Is that true? That's correct. 1,710 square feet. At least that's what you say it is. So that you can house two cars, two motor vehicles. That's correct. And lawn equipment and tools and any other boy toys. That's correct.

That's in my basement right now. Yeah.

Our sheds and houses are very crowded at the moment.

Now, you have a small garage on the property at present. Is that true?

That's true. We're not sure when we purchased the house what it was. It wasn't approved as a garage. I think it was a shed. You can't get a car in there today. A car the size of today's in there unless it's like a small, tiny car.

So you quibble with the word garage. It's more like a shed?

yeah so and that there is a garage door on it but it doesn't face the driveway so you can't actually pull a vehicle i'm sorry how big is that garage it would be like a one car yeah i mean is it 20 by 20. i don't even know i don't know i don't even think it's that big it's tiny yeah

I can just about back my wife's car in there, but you can't open the door.

I have a Honda CRV and it doesn't quite fit.

The only way to get it in is to back it in.

You're planning on removing that before you put this in?

Yes. Now, the location on the lot of the proposed garage, the new one, is going to be where?

Jason said that.

And you're going to be removing a section of the paved driveway that exists currently, is that right?

That's correct.

Yeah, we're going to have to.

And you say that the proposed garage complies with all required setbacks. Is that correct? That's correct. So you don't need any dimensional relief insofar as setbacks are concerned.

The original one we put in would have covered, but it was out of the zonal.

Yeah, we weren't quite sure what the setback rules were when we first submitted.

Now you know and you find everything is hunky-dory.

Yeah, we could make it work with what we have.

We can make it work.

We're going to have to put more driving.

You're going to have to make it work. Otherwise, you need to have done what these nice folks just before you did.

Yeah, that sounds tough.

So you're going to have to make sure that where this proposed garage is going complies with all setback requirements. Otherwise, you're going to get bounced out by the building inspector. But for now, you're alleging in your paperwork that the proposed garage complies with all required setbacks. Make sure that that representation is accurate.

Okay.

The garage, you say, will consist of two bay doors. Is that true, the new garage? Yes. And is it going to be two stories, you said, right? Yes. And there's going to be a second floor above. Is that going to be in the nature of an attic? Like, basically, like, just where the store stuff and... Yeah, it'll be unfinished. So it's going to be a full floor up there, or is it one of these ones where you play hippity-hop to the barbershop where you have to kind of jump across beams? No, no, it's going to have flooring.

Just the sub, right? Yes.

Will there be a set of stairs going up to it?

Yes, we've got stairs. And is it going to be a peaked roof? so that part of the attic upstairs you're going to be able to walk under or on and then other parts when you get to the sides of the peak, you won't be able to walk?

Yeah, it will be peaked. And from what I remember, there will be, when you're near the edges,

Yeah, it's going to be closer. Do you have a drawing?

Do we have a drawing?

No. I do, but we didn't bring the paperwork. We need to see a drawing.

That's why I'm asking these questions.

We did submit the original plans.

With a drawing of the actual garage?

Yes. All the construction plans were submitted originally.

Can I ask a question while you're looking?

Yes.

So I see that the request is for 1,710 square feet. And when I do the math on the ground floor, I get 1,038 square feet. So I'm wondering where the other 672 feet.

Second floor, they put that storage area.

Well, I know, but I'm still wondering how they arrived at that number. I mean, if you just, those dimensions on the second floor make it more than 1,700 square feet.

I think because of the way that...

If you want to take a look, I have it on the phone.

That doesn't work for us. And I just went through the file. I don't see any plan.

Okay.

So to answer your question, sometimes the pitch of the roof will reduce the square footage on the ceiling.

We had one recently where we had that very discussion, right? That's true. I'm just making sure that whatever they're giving us for the amount of, once again, we got into usable square footage, right? that that's because whatever we're permitting, we have to know exactly. It can't be about 1,700 or about 2,000. We have to know exactly how much you would be losing with the pitch of that upstairs. So that's why.

It can also be the, obviously, where the wall ends is. So you're losing a bit of.

Yeah.

We have no doubt that you're going to lose some, but we need to count that square footage upstairs.

Okay.

We have gone through this. quite energetically in the last year or so with the building department, and we've made it very clear that if it's usable space, as Ms. Dahl characterized it, and she's right, then that square footage needs to be counted. And so Mr. Poirier is also correct that we need a precise number, because otherwise we don't know how much relief to give you.

I don't know what to tell you. So we started this process back in March, where we submitted the original construction plans. And then that was obviously denied due to the new setback rules. So then that's what we got is the plot plan and all that set up. We never got an official denial letter in the mail. That was not sent out. So he's been up. to the town hall at least once a week trying to figure out what it was.

I feel like we've just been put on the back burner a little bit. Before you leave here tonight, you're going to know exactly what to do. You're not going to need to kind of cast about downstairs for instructions. So we are the last word locally on what you need to do. Okay?

Thank you.

Um, so first thing is you're going to need to show us the plan for the garage, which is not in the file here and I don't know where it is, but you need to provide it the next time because we're not going to go to a vote tonight on this. I'll tell you right now, but we'll try to get back quickly on this for you. That's number one. Number two, we need to get a precise square footage. both first floor and second. Mr. Poirier is very good with his math, and I do not question what he's saying about the square footage on the first floor. And then usable space on the second floor. Right, Ms. Dahl? Yes. Add those two numbers together, that's the square footage, and then we decide based upon that how much relief we're inclined to give you. It may be that we're not inclined to give you all that you want, and then that might require a reconfiguration or a redrawing. But let's see if we can at least get to first base on this and arrive at the square footage number.

Okay.

Okay? Now, there was something in your papers about a lean-to. Can you tell me about what this lean-to is?

Yeah, I guess you wouldn't know if you don't have any of the other papers that we submitted. I do not. None of us does. The garage is 28 by 30. And then off the back, there is just a one-story lean-to that would be his workshop. And so there will be two cars, two bays for the cars. And then on the side, there will be an additional smaller garage door that he can lift up and pull like lawn equipment in and out and then any other tools that he wants to do. Is that the 9 by 22 that's showing?

It's in the back.

Possibly, yeah. The 9 by 22 bump out in the back. I would like to have a look.

Is it this part here? So the door would be there. The door would be on this side. So that does not have a second floor. No, it does not.

So that makes a difference. That's a difference. So that's the difference. I was actually going to say that.

No second floor. That's the difference.

Well, right, but you're also losing some usable space, too. That's why I'm going to be curious to see what... And once again, you want to make sure that you're giving a number that doesn't mean that you're counting stuff where you go over and you have to scrunch down. Because we've had... a number of huge garages that people have asked to build. And we've had to ask them to trim those numbers down. My other question is, what's the square footage of your residence?

I think it's just about 32 to 3,400 square feet.

3,400 square feet, OK. And do you know the height of the peak of the roof of your house?

I do not.

Is it taller than, is it going to be, is your garage going to be taller than that?

No, it's not.

Okay, so it's less than the 23 feet that you're asking. That's correct. Okay.

How close is your adjacent neighbor to that garage?

It'll be exactly 30 feet from, I think, the front.

Not the property line where their dwelling is.

Further than that because they have a garage door, or they have a driveway up to their house and then their house from that.

It could be over 50 feet from where it's actually based.

Other than the driveway, is there a buffer at all?

No, I don't think so.

There's shrubs. There is shrubs and a few trees. They've put trees there, like conifer trees.

Yeah, there's landscaping throughout, and they have some taller...

I'm just saying, from a perspective of a neighbor, you're going from a shed... I'm going to use that as an example to a larger structure. And the visual side of that may be a deterrent to them. Have you spoken to them about what your intent is?

Yes. And they received letters as well.

They're very good neighbors. We like them very much.

Because as you may have heard earlier, the 20-day appeal period could affect you. So I just want to make sure that you've gotten your eyes across it.

Sometimes it's helpful to get a letter from them to say that they have a problem.

Ms. Dahl is correct, but it's not required.

It's not required.

If they don't come to express opposition, then we assume that there is no opposition.

Yes. Just to say that the trees are like about 20 foot high. So it covers off the previous owners. Is it one tree or a series of trees? A series of trees. Probably about seven to ten.

Are they back trees or are they oak trees?

They're like conifers.

Yeah.

Might be a good idea to bring some pictures of that line. I've probably got some on my phone. Is this stocking from yours?

So we weren't sure, but I think once we figured that out, both fences on either side are ours.

What about lighting? You're going to have exterior lighting on the proposed garage?

We will on the front and on the side that faces the house because we plan to use the garage as a garage. And then we have a side entrance into the house that we plan on re-landscaping and making that like a mudroom entrance.

So there's going to be exterior lighting.

Is there going to be any heat in that garage? Yes or no? Possibly.

Maybe from a heater.

We have a heater that's already in the shed, so I possibly might put that in the same one. Right.

It wouldn't be a heat pump or any sort of formal thing like that.

No, just off the electric.

So he can work on his projects out of my basement in the winter. Well, if he gets in trouble, you may want a heater.

And what about water? Are you going to have water inside?

No. Not at this time. We might have something to put there and then, I don't know, in time, I don't know.

Like a spigot outside the house? That's what I would like.

Yeah, like an outside spigot or swing. Yeah.

Okay.

You're not putting a bathroom, right? No. No, no, no.

No, because it would have been easier to push this through.

And this is not to be used in any way, shape, manner, or form for residential purposes unless you kick them out.

That's right. You know, we have plenty of space to host his family and my family. So I thought putting his parents in the garage would be mean. I have another important question for you.

It has to do with a lean-to.

Okay. That's you.

How many walls are going to be on that?

Basically, as a lean-to, we've got front and back. So you've got door.

Is it going to be open air on at least one side? Second, sorry? Will it be open air on at least one side?

No, we'll have a door that just comes down. It's to put a ride on in there, basically, and just any woodwork.

Yes, that's part of it. That's part of the 1,038 that Jim had originally had.

Well, as long as we're talking square footage, Kay and I have been doing our math, taking off our shoes and socks to figure this out. So if you take the 1,038, that includes everything that's down below on the first floor. And if you take the upstairs, it's going to be, I'm not talking about the loss, it's 840. you get 1,878 square feet, not the 1,710 that's being requested there.

Correct, but it's usable, so I think the angles are going to make that difference.

Well, I would agree with that, but I think that's why we need to make sure that when we see the plans... Would there be a loss using the stairs?

I would have thought there would be, would there not?

Since the stairway is on the first floor, part of that would be a loss of usable square feet, too.

It's usable for accessibility.

Okay.

Does that include the underneath as well?

Because that could be storage.

You'd hit your head on the first view, wouldn't you?

What's that? People put storage under stairs all the time.

Yeah, okay. Just a degree. I do it, so.

So in the building plan, we need to see what the outside is probably going to look like, any windows,

Me too should be illustrated as well.

It is. It is. It was the first thing we did that we got done.

I'm sorry it's not with us tonight, and I have no explanation for why it isn't.

But you're getting your marching orders tonight, which is good. So you're no longer just flailing and going there every week and saying, OK, what do I do now? What do I do now? And you're getting different answers or squishy answers. you'll know before you leave here tonight exactly what it is that we need. When do you want to start construction?

We wanted to April 1st. Yeah.

We haven't even had a shovel in the ground, so we're frustrated.

I don't know how long this is going to take. Yeah, this is four months we've been at this.

I feel like we've been put on the back burner a little bit.

Up here every week, trying to figure this out.

Certain people that have come in the office, he's gone straight around the back because he's not wanting to talk to me.

I'm not going to say who they are, but... She's putting her hand on your arm. My wife does that to me as well. That means no more.

We're frustrated, but we're getting through it now. We don't have an answer for you. Our builder's been ready to go.

We told him April 1st. We hear you. What else would you nice folks want to ask about?

Well, obviously, we're going to get the square footage of upstairs, so we'll need to see, you know, that short, it's only, you know, three feet where the eaves come down. But... Right, that we don't count, but we do need to know if you can walk that distance. Sure. What is it? How long?

Can I ask, what space is walkable? Because I'm 6'2". 6'6". I'm 6'2". 6'6". 6'6", okay. Okay, so anything under 6'6 is deemed as unused.

is considered, yeah, anything under... Not usable.

Not usable. Okay.

Okay, that's helpful.

So whoever drew your drawings can show the pitch, and they're going to show lines at usable space.

Yeah, it's on there.

So it's pretty straightforward.

And that may end up with you making your request less than the 17.

Or more. Or more.

I mean, I think more. No, I think it's likely to be less. I think it's going to be less.

It's going to be less because they're going to take away from the upstairs.

I still don't know what the pitch of the roof is to say that. Okay, okay, I got you. So it's 23 feet. If it's a 10-foot garage, you're talking 13 feet to the peak, you can get a pretty good pitch on that, especially on the width of that garage. I'm just saying in general. Okay. Until I see the plan.

Sure, yeah.

Ms. Dahl?

Yeah, all that. Ms. Spencer? Yeah, I just think we have to have confirmation on, you know, seeing the plans.

Unfortunately, yeah, that's kind of unfortunate.

And we would have brought some, too, if we knew that you guys didn't.

That's not exactly what we're looking for, and it should be pretty straightforward to get that.

Okay. Yeah, I think we just need to print it.

score footage so i have a question for you because you're limited refer the bylaw to 700. And if we're talking 1,700 or possibly more, as Mr. Sullivan just suggested, that's way over the 700 square feet. Now, speaking for myself, I'm just one voice up here. You know you heard from everybody tonight, so I'm not micromanaging this. But speaking for myself, I think 700 square feet for a garage is unrealistically low. And that by law probably needs to be changed. But right now, that's the law. We don't make the law. That's town meeting. So we're not legislators. We're more quasi-judicial. So 700 is the hand of cards that we have been dealt, and you. So if you're looking to go as high as 2,000 square feet, once everything is calculated, I don't know how we would respond to that. WAY OVER THE 700. I THINK THE AVERAGE IS, WHAT, GENERALLY 1,500.

SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA. THAT'S TYPICAL RANGE.

YEAH. SO JUST A SUGGESTION. KEEP IT REASONABLE IN SIZE.

HOW WOULD WE LESSEN IT? BECAUSE THE GARAGE PART WHERE WE... GO TO YOUR BUILDING. OKAY. JUST SHRINK THE HEIGHT AND JUST SAY NOTHING UPSTAIRS IS USABLE THEN? I DON'T KNOW.

FIRST YOU GOT TO CALCULATE HOW MUCH IT IS RIGHT NOW. And then if it's not any more, it might even be less, as Mr. Corey and Ms. Spencer suggest. Great. But as Mr. Sullivan suggests, it could be higher. And then, you know, if you're getting into something that's like 2,000 square feet, that could be an issue for some of us.

Sure.

Don't know. We honestly don't know. We won't be dealing with it. But we will the next time. So does anybody have anything else they want to say?

No.

No?

Okay.

So it's regrettable that we have to postpone.

But not for long.

But not for long.

Okay.

So Mr. Poirier and Mr. Farrington are very good with their calendar phones. And we're going to try to get you back in here quickly.

Okay.

Now, typically, we meet once a month, 30 days. Maybe we can get you in... Before then, how's that sound?

We are going to be out of town for part of August, so just... So am I. Okay.

And so is Mr. Poirier. Okay.

So am I.

Okay. So is Ms. Benson. So we're going to work around everybody's schedule. Okay.

So is August 6th too soon?

It's too... We leave the August 5th. You're leaving on the 5th, okay.

About the 4th, then. We've got to start somewhere.

Yeah.

About the 4th.

That's good.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, and that's fine.

That's okay. Yes.

Can you get it all together in that quick? Yeah.

I think we have everything you need. We have all the construction plans ready to go. So I think that we'll call our builder and make sure that we get a good calculation.

So August 4? What day of the week is that? That's a Tuesday. I should have brought my schedule.

August 4, sounds like I have something.

But if I can't make it, then Mr. Barrington, sitting to my right, who's the vice chair, will take over in my absence. And he's mean. You've got to be careful about this guy here. Good cop, bad cop.

Yeah. How long are you gone for?

We'll be back on the 16th. Is that right? Let me... Yeah, we'll be back on the 16th.

I just want to stay a couple days longer.

No, we'll be back because you have to...

I'm thinking of some sort of work thing that's going to take me out of town, but I can't recall. So we're going to stay with the 4th. Okay. There's only a couple more weeks.

Is that enough time for...

Okay. It's a continuance, right? It's a continuance. It will go on the website, Mr. Barrington, but we don't have to advertise it. Is that what you're asking? Yep. No advertising.

You're requesting a continuance is basically what we're saying.

Are you requesting a continuance?

Yes.

We are requesting a continuance.

We're going to Iceland.

It's our fifth wedding anniversary.

We got married in Iceland, so we're going back. There's a solar eclipse.

I was getting to think the cops were after you or something. Not yet.

He's behaved so far.

I don't think I've ever been to a place where the air was so clear. Yeah. And everything's so distinct.

Yep. We're excited. No mosquitoes either.

Did you go on the hot baths? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. We love it there.

We've done the whole island virtually.

That's great.

Do we need a motion to continue?

Yes, we do need a motion. So the petitioner has requested a continuance. And the date of August 4th. is suggested. Now, it may not be in this room. I can't speak for where it's going to be. Okay.

It'll be in the building, though. Okay. Not in Miles Downish, then. So, in the basement, there's another meeting room down there. Okay.

It'll be on the website anyway.

Okay.

This is room one.

Okay.

Room four is all the way in the basement. Okay. That's where they put us when we backed up. So... Does somebody want to make that motion, continue the case to August 4th?

I move that the case be continued to Tuesday, August 4th.

6.30.

6.30.

Second. And before we vote, I want to say that this will be, I think, the only case on our docket for the evening.

Okay.

So you get called up first. You don't have to listen to anybody else. Hopefully get you in and out. Provided we get the documentation. That's right. It's a sticker. All in favor? Aye. Okay. So you're off until August 4th. You know what you've got to do?

Yep. Do you want multiple copies again, just like the plot plan? It would be good to have at least one for everybody.

We've been doing quite well with everything we've been asked.

Anything else that you want to inquire about? We're done for this evening. No, I think that was it. That's it. But you're good. You're clear. Yep.

All right. Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much.

Let's get back. Nice to see you both. Thank you.

So we're going to see them before they go. Yeah. Thank you. Good night.

Good night. All right. Now, next we go to correspondence or items that

should be discussed before we adjourn. Does anybody have anything? No. No. I do. First of all, you will recall the 18 Brockton Avenue case that we sat on. Yes. Back on May 28th and also June 25th, our last meeting. Yes. And that case went to decision. I'm happy to report that the penalty has been paid and that construction will be moving forward. Good. Very good. Good news. Next.

With the conditions, right?

Yes, with the conditions. Lots of conditions. There was an item on the agenda this evening about discussing the waiver of a... The union church has sent a letter dated July 17th. requesting consideration of a waiver for the zoning permit application fee associated with replacing the church's existing sign. It's alleged that Union Church is a non-profit religious organization and that it's open for worship services only twice each year. While the church is not in regular operation for work, worship, worship services. It remains an important part of our community's history and heritage. Replacing the existing sign will improve the properties of parents, provide clear identification for those attending services, and help preserve the welcoming presence of this cherished place of worship. Because the Union Church operates on a very limited basis and has minimal financial resources, the cost of the application fee represents a significant expense. Renting a fee waiver would greatly assist in completing this modest improvement while allowing the church to continue preserving the property for future generations and the community it serves. Respectfully submitted on behalf of Union Church, Peter Allegheny, who is the owner of Signs by Designs. I can tell you all that I've been inside that Union Church before, and it's really quaint and beautiful in there. But I don't think it's heated, which is probably why they only do services twice a year. I was in there in the cold weather around Christmas time, and it's cold.

It's cold.

But in any event, this is about a sign, and so I ask for feedback from you folks as to what you would like to do. Typically, as we all know, to come before us, there's a filing fee that needs to be paid. That's the cost of doing business with us. I looked it up.

I Googled it for Carver. Yeah, it said 50.

Was it 50 to the... That was the sign fee, though, right? You were saying there's a fee to come before us?

Yeah.

Zoning permit application fee. Oh, okay. I think it's 450. Was it 50? Yeah. But in any event, they're looking for a waiver of whatever fee it is.

Filing fee for a new sign permit in Carver, Massachusetts is $50 for the planning board and $50 per sign for the building permitting department. Though some general commercial schedules list a flat $60 building fee per sign.

I guess the next question is, do we even have jurisdiction on this, or is it the planning board? Well, I was, yeah.

What size sign? I mean, that would be the only... Yeah, we don't even know that. Yeah, why would they need to come in front of us? Zoning usually gets involved if it exceeds the, you know, the limitation of what the town requires. Right, yeah. It could be 10 square feet or whatever that number is. So not knowing what the sign is, to your point, Steven, it may not even be our responsibility.

So maybe what we should do is direct the nice ladies down in the planning department to get some more information. Yes. Because this may not be our case.

What's the proposal all about?

It says replace the existing sign, but it gives no details. So with everyone's permission, I will contact the folks down in the planning department to get more detail on this. I think that there is something in the, and I didn't bring the book unfortunately. Yeah, there's something in the bylaw book about signs.

Could you locate that for us, one of you?

And then I have two other short matters to discuss. I know there's something in there about signs.

Standards. Permitted signs only, signs which refer to permitted zoning bylaws. So there's maximum fourth field high, I'll tell you exactly where it is. 290-3-5-2. 290-3-5-2. Ask me why I found it that quick.

That's good, though. 290-3-5-2. 290-3-5-2.

Article 3-5 signs.

Okay. 3-5, finally.

Well, the fee schedule is determined by the voting commissioner.

Yeah. Hurry up, Richard. You want money? Wait a minute. That's 3-5 children as a body, okay? But what we need to do is we need to find out which board in town would have jurisdiction over this. I see you recall that most of the signed jurisdiction in town.

It says used, permitted by zoning, by law, or protected by statute are permitted in the provisions. Prohibited signs.

A schedule of fees of such permits may be established and amended from time to time by the building commissioner.

Yeah, that's exactly what it says.

All right, I'm going to have to call on this.

Yeah, we need some more information.

I have a distinct recollection of the planning board. We've got most of our previous signed jurisdiction. It used to be always with zoning, with the ZBA. Okay. we gratefully hand it off to the planning board i have that in memory so let me see what i can find out is that okay with everybody yes so we're going to defer making any decision on this request for now yeah and we can always take it up when we come back in two weeks next there is another request before us to waive an appeal fee this would be an appeal of a decision made by the building commissioner not to take action on a particular case. I'm not going to get into why. It's not really pertinent. But I did want to let everybody know that This is a person who would like to bring this matter in front of the ZVA, the appeal of the zoning commissioner's decision not to take any action on a particular matter about which this person had complained. And she doesn't feel as if she should have to pay $450 for that appeal. And so I want to let everybody know how I responded to this, because we weren't in session, obviously, at the time. So administratively, I responded as follows to our clerk in the planning department, not directly to the complainant. All people wishing to appeal must pay the fee. Please direct the author of this email to pay the appeal fee if she wants to bring this matter in front of the ZBA. That's how I responded to that. I didn't think it was appropriate for the board to begin waiving appeal fees just because somebody feels that the decision made by the building commissioner was wrong. If you believe that there was a wrong decision made, then you appeal the fee and you get in front of us and we listen to the case. Okay, so that's what I did on that. And then last, I save another positive thing. Folks up here will remember, most of you, that our decision on July 23, 2024, on a Save the Pine Barrens case was appealed. And that appeal went to the Superior Court, and the judge issued his order one week ago. The judge wrote, it is ordered that the defendant's motion to dismiss be allowed. So that case ends up being a case which supports our decision on the case. That's a win. There may be an appeal. Plaintiff is entitled to an appeal. That's a Save the Pine Barrens plaintiff. We were part of that appeal. We're the defendants, the Carver Zoning Board of Appeals. So I wanted to announce that to all of you as well, unless you are hanging on the for Massachusetts state courts all the time like I am and we're not likely to see this. So I thought since you were involved at the time and you were involved at the time and you were involved at the time and I was involved at the time that you'd appreciate knowing this.

What was the basis of appeal? What was the basis for appeal?

The basis of the appeal was that it was incorrect and improper for the building commissioner not to have issued a cease and desist order on property located at 46 Federal Road in Carver, alleging that there was sand being removed as opposed to appropriate cranberry farming activities. Without getting to... too much more detail, you can review all of this on the website. But that's a win. Congratulations, everybody. I think that our decision was well written, well drafted, and obviously supported by the court. Not the first time either. So our record of not having been reversed for 30 years remains intact. So that's our... Those are my items to discuss with you all tonight. Does anybody have anything else that they'd like to say?

No. I mean, I was surprised when I got here and found out we had more than one case. What do you mean? Because there wasn't any e-mail. We didn't get any.

We didn't get anything on that second case. Really? Yeah. No.

Tonight was the first . Well, then I apologize. We know that we didn't have a plan. Right. But I must have been given something. Let me see. And if I did not...

It's unusual for them not to have a Lyle letter either. Usually that's for the copy.

I didn't have any of this. I had a... one of those drawings, one of those plans, right?

Yeah, that was just a site plan. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's it. They've been here before.

My apologies. I probably should have gotten something over there.

I think that they've been battling with down systems with submitting different things back and forth. Yeah, they were denied from the building inspector and then receive a denial letter to go forward with that. But usually when they kick everything to us, we get a denial letter. We get the package. You get a whole package.

So apologies for not getting anything to you in advance, but they didn't have much either.

All right.

Do I hear a motion to adjourn?

Motion to adjourn.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Good night, Carver.

Good night.