Planning and Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good morning. I'd like to call to order the Planning and Zoning Commission of Carroll County, Maryland meeting for May 19, 2026. Welcome, everybody. Can we establish a quorum?

Yes, good morning, everyone.

Good morning.

Mr. Cain?

Here.

Mr. Robertson?

Here.

Mr. Huff? Ms. Kirkner?

Here.

Mr. Soyson? Here. Mr. Lester? Mr. Smith?

Here.

Mr. Gordon? Secretary Daley?

Here.

Mr. Chairman, please let the record reflect that five members are present and we do have a quorum.

Thank you. Please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Are there is everybody had a chance to take a look and review the agenda. Changes to the agenda.

We get an approval of the move to approve the agenda for today.

We had minutes to review from the April 21st 2026 meeting. Can we get a motion to approve those minutes?

I make a motion. We approve.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Thank you. All right item number six commission member reports. I am considering the Manor at River Run final site development plan. You may recall that was a country inn that the young family wanted to convert it to a country inn. S-22-0004 and I also approve the three lot subdivision called Summerfield M-25-0025 Any other Commission member reports? Administrative report

good morning good morning i have a few things to update you on particularly items that have been for you and um on to the commissioners so the first one is a report on the um consolidate the proposal to to allow for the consolidation of billboards or use off the premises signs um a public hearing was held on that number weeks back and last Thursday the Board of County Commissioners met to make a decision on that they chose not to approve any of the proposed amendments so the discussion and the recommendations that you all made are kind of It's status quo now. So they did not adopt those recommended amendments. However, there was a follow up request that the Planning Commission look at use off the premises signs in general. at a future date, and particularly the provisions that are in there right now that allow for the conversion of signs to digital or the creation of new conforming signs as digital signs. So at some point, we'll bring that issue to you all to review and consider additional recommendations. The planned commercial centers recommendation which would remove the allowance of second story residential and planned commercial centers is going to public hearing on the 28th of May and then I suspect a few weeks later the board will take that up for a decision as well a couple of other things of course the planned commercial centers are part of the four projects that are deferred in the freedom area. Last Thursday, the commissioners also looked at extending additional project types that are currently deferred. So they did extend the retirement homes and retirement villages. Or, I'm sorry, they did not extend that. They voted to have a public hearing on extending that. They did not take action on the topic of extending the self-storage deferral at this time. Let's see. Additionally, last Thursday, the commissioners voted to award a contract to a consultant that was selected to lead the small area plan amendment for the Freedom Area. So that process will be getting underway before too long. We'll be sure to come before you to discuss what that amendment process would look like and how how we can work with you all in that process, because that will be an amendment to an existing adopted plan. So you'll need to be involved in that. I think that is it for me. Just a little heads up that we do continue to get applications for solar projects. That's not changing. That is something that is kind of a trend, and I expect that you may hear about that. There may be some projects that come before you before too long. Just a little heads up on that. And that's it for me.

Okay, thank you. Any extensions? No extensions?

No extensions, no.

Any updates on BZA cases? No BZA.

uh we do have two bza cases they are both for commercial kennels of 10 dogs or more i don't have the particulars of those with me but both of them we've reviewed internally and they are generally consistent with the master plan so

Okay. All right, moving on. Item number eight, Education Facilities Master Plan, an introduction on the staff. On the new one I must have printed out the wrong one I'm sorry Oh this is I'm sorry yeah Zepa States section 2 sorry

yeah this is nice right in the middle wait for the mouse i get i get over here now i like it maybe it's out of order So something somewhere along the line, the agenda must have had Liberty Exchange first and Zepa State second. So bear with me. I'm going to scoot down to where we need to be in our presentation here. OK, here we go. And that. Okay, I think we're all set up now. Good morning, everybody. My name is Kirsten. I'm with the Development Review Division. I am here before you today. This is awfully loud. With the Zepa States, which has a subdivision file number, but this is actually a special report. And we'll get into the details there. If I could, could you introduce yourselves? I'm Linda Alexander, CLSI. We're the engineers in the project.

And I'm Gene Zepp, and I'm the property owner.

Welcome. Very good. All right. So this is a special report, like I just mentioned. This is a special report for essentially transferring the ability to build a house from one side of Halter Road to the other. Our code allows for this. And we'll go over that in a little bit of detail. But we run it by the Planning Commission first. So if the transfer is recognized as being acceptable, This will proceed through a regular minor subdivision process, which is why it has a minor subdivision file number. And it will just proceed through that regular process. So we are in, we're north of Pleasant Valley, north of the city of Westminster. We're on Halter Road. We're on both sides of Halter Road. So over here, you can see it's kind of jagged. There are some lots that have come off of this property already. you can see halter road runs along the eastern side of that area and there's a little bit of the property on the eastern side of halter road that's because halter road usually used previously used to run this way and it came out over here it was realigned in 1965 i believe yep and it kind of divided the property so when that happened this property on the eastern side will have the right to build a house that's the way that the code works because somebody came through and divided it So they have the right to build a house on the eastern side inherently. It's all agricultural zoned, and the proposal here is to take the lot yield from the eastern side, which is currently about 2.2 acres, can have one house, remove it from the eastern side, move the lot yield to the western side, and on the eastern side it gets consolidated with this larger parcel you see here. So this area here gets consolidated into this wooded acreage and no longer is a separate lot. We're basically moving that lot over, going through subdivision to recognize that lot being over there. The code allows for this under section 155033, subdivision and ag district by the utilization of adjoining tracks. And you're able to transfer density between, I'm gonna summarize all this text. You're able to transfer density between adjoining tracks and the agricultural district. You're able to do that, including if it's on other sides of the road. And if you transfer the lot yield, typically you're supposed to retain at least one residential building right. whatever property you're transferring yield from in this case we're going to be removing that so it does accommodate for that that the transferring track shall retain at least one residential building right or the transferring track shall be combined with another tract unless modified by Planning and Zoning Commission they're not asking for a modification here that's part of the code is they're able to move it and then just absorb the leftover land into that eastern wooded parcel I guess I can show you the plans. So here's a little more zoomed in. Again, you can see the area where they're proposing to remove the lot from. There's area where you could build a house, but there's already houses on this side and they'd rather build it right in this area here, right where the word site is essentially. Again, we'd be going through a subdivision for that process. In fact, You have that plan available to see here. You'll notice this looks a bit different. We've shifted, our north is now to the right-hand side of the sheet, and you can't see the transferred, the area where the lot's coming from very much. It's this area here. We're moving the lot across the street. This will be where the new lot will go. If I go back, you'll see that's the shape right here. They're basically gonna draw a line right here and put the house there, again, through the subdivision review process. and then consolidate this acreage here into this wooded acreage there with the house, again, over on this side. That's pretty much the whole of it. There's not too much to it. We're just seeking the nod of approval, the determination regarding the transfer of residential lot yield from adjoining property, if you need that for your decision. And we can answer any questions you might have now. Again, this will just proceed through a regular subdivision process if this is approved.

I will say one thing just so you understand why we looked at doing it this way. When the county realigned the road, one of the things they didn't do is they didn't really remove a road bed very much, but they didn't move any of the power lines either. So to build what you can see pretty evidently on there. So that power line is still running with where the old road bed is that splits these properties. So to put a house and then literally have them running, looking at this power line all the time, And then any access, like you can see the pole on the west side of the road is accessing power to that main power line. So it just, and then when the owner of the parcel in back kind of approached us about, hey, he'd like to own the whole way up to Halter Road and not have that little piece back there. Not sure what he's gonna use it for. He's not gonna put a house there, but he'd just like to control it. Since the road's now being realigned, it kind of just made sense to, okay, let's just take the house and put a better house, better lot site, um with a with a more room for the folks to do whatever they needed to do and not backed up against this power line and we just switched them to the other side of the road we already have an owner on that side that wants to land that's the thought process that happened during we've been working on this job four years now five years it's an estate situation and that's why the decision was made to approach about putting the lot on this side on the opposite side of halter road the new road now versus what's going on with that thing

Just a quick question why is the lot so big in the Ag Zone?

Right now if you look at the lot almost an acre that lot is wooded so we looked at not coming back into those woods but we needed to get that house site any woods that's not accounted for will end up in an easement to the county it just is for future owners to have a little bit of a piece that they own behind another lot that's wooded becomes a question I'm sorry I was gonna answer his so you can see where the house which one of this one yeah that one the house actually sits far back because of the way the perks are When we chose that line, we kind of came back and made one straight line so the remaining portion didn't technically own a half acre to three quarters of an acre behind this house of woods. What we're gonna end up doing is we're gonna leave them, be able to use it, but it's gonna end up in an easement to the county for whatever those woods are. There's very little, Because of the way this property is configured, there's very little farm. Actually, I know you guys are technically farming it, but most of this property is not farmed at this point.

So that was the whole reason with just straightening it back.

It does equal up to this side, this house over here. This house that was the original house and the property actually sits about 60, 70 feet back farther, this one here. And we just lined the property, that back property line up with that other house.

And it looks very large on the image, but it's about 2.6 acres. We're seeing on average, you know, 1.5 to 2 is the typical what we're seeing in ag. You can't really get a 1.1 acre lot unless you're really, really trying and you get really good perks. So two acres or so is not too far outside of the world.

And to give you an idea, that off conveyance is an acre. That septic system's in the front and their well's in the back, 10 feet off that property line. If that well goes, they have no place to put their well, because that thing's only an acre. not saying that the wells go but you know I mean like so that's one of the reasons that and all these wells are in the back obviously the septics didn't perk as beautiful in the front as we wanted to but we got into perk so we do try to tend to leave more than an acre we try to go to that two acre mark this time I will agree it's a little bit bigger because we didn't want that little no man's land sitting behind these people's property in the future and then the hangover parcel will be consolidated yes sir okay to do whatever he chooses to do. I don't know if you're going to plant trees continue to farm and whatever but he's expressed an interest in these things are going to plant trees that are going to read a lot.

They would about 10 years, I think they have plenty of trees.

Yeah, so I thought I thought that's what they had wanted to do, but I don't speak for them.

I'm good.

so just so i have it straight in my head the lot on the right basically transfers over to the property on the left the lots increase from what is it now it'll be increased to two well right now the remaining portion so

hangovers about 1.6 acres right now this this property the remaining portion this was a subdivision this is a remaining portion okay this property has the right to build one house right now it does not have a house on it has the right to build a house it currently does not have a right to build a subdivision lot it can't divide yet we would be transferring this ability this yield it kind of happens all at once but it's multiple things so this is approval the transfer moves the yield over here which allows this to subdivide even though previously it had more no more yield then they go through the subdivision process and then that lot has moved across the street and then they can build a house there they would also still have the right to build the house on the remaining portion as well i think we've seen sketches of it being yeah if you put the other one up kirsten um

you'll see those three perk tests way down to the left of the or to the right of the plan those three perks already allow for a house to be built on that remaining portion that would not require that to we kind of kept the house down the corner and we didn't put it in the woods for obvious reasons so there is a perk test on that that would allow that remaining portion to be built

Just curious, is that sand mound or deep trench?

All these are conventional trench systems. That's a deep trench. This one over here is a tile field. No sand mounds.

Just wondering.

The ground is way too steep for sand mounds out here. I know.

That's why I was asking.

All right. Any public comment? seeing none all right so um we don't really need to do anything i do need a decision i think um action required determination regarding transfer of lot yield from an adjoining property so just off to authorize that we have a comment here oh public comment i just want to know how many houses we're talking

one just one okay just worried because stone roads a speedway and no one stops to stop signing halter and stone okay all right thank you wait a minute a couple more

I should probably read this since we're getting some public comment.

My name is William Lance.

Hold on a second. I am the owner of the Woodlot. Hold on a second. So for public comment, speakers must sign in to make public comment. If you haven't done so, that's in the back. speakers state your name address talking to the microphone comments will be limited to three minutes citizens testimony is not a question and answer session questions may be directed to staff after the meeting if any individual fails to comply with these rules the planning and zoning commission chair may call the person out of order and may require him or her to leave the meeting so

My name is William Lance. I live at 1337 Pleasant Valley Road. I am the owner of the 19.12 acre wood lot that's adjacent to the little wedge where the old halter road ran down through with the power lines and we are the ones that are interested in getting the little triangle so that we continue to have a right of way to get into our woods, because that's the only way we have to get into it, off of the new Halter Road now, because we can't gain it through what used to be the old Halter Road. So I hope that you would take and approve what they're asking for. Thank you. Thank you.

Any other public comment?

It was Mark Stoneman I live at 1330 stone road intersection of stone and halter. I just have a couple things to say it like well water, I'm sure these houses you're going to build you know you say it's one now I'm sure to advance to more later. What about the well water that you're going to be taking because 3 people on stone within a mile of this development have already had the wells go dry. The big predicament within the county water. another problem we have is traffic control we have no help from the sheriff's department out there i've called the sheriffs other neighbors have called the sheriffs they've come out observed and they come back and tell us there's nothing we can do there's no place for us to pull people over well the last time i looked from the center of a road 30 foot back is a county easement They have plenty of room to pull people over. But if you came to my house, you could sit on my porch and watch 15, 20 cars a day run the stop sign. Traffic is a severe problem in this county, and I'm hoping you guys will take this into consideration.

Thank you. Thank you. Any other public comment?

No?

Okay.

Okay.

So you need a motion to move the determination forward for the transfer?

Yes, I think. You would be making the determination regarding the transfer, the residential lot yield. So she's looking for essentially a approval of the transfer of the residential and authorization.

Okay. Under county code.

15, let's see, where is it? 155, 133, I think. Yeah, section B, utilization of adjoining trucks. What is it now, 155? 155.033, section B, utilization of adjoining trucks.

Okay. Okay. um after hearing the testimony and and uh understanding that it complies with the code i make a motion that we allow the transfer under 155-033 section b the code of carroll county to transfer the lot yield over to the other side of the road to the main parcel from the eastern to the western yes second

Mr. Huff? Ms. Kupner? Yes Mr. Lester? Mr. Robertson? Yes Mr. Smith? Yes Mr. Swenson? Yes Mr. Gordon? Mr. Chairman we have five Okay, all right, thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, good luck.

Commissioners, while we're making the transfer here, I just want to correct myself on something that I said during the administrative matters. So I had said that the commissioners took no action to extend the self storage deferral. That's already been extended. What they didn't take action on to extend was the clustering deferral. So just wanted to make that correction.

Okay, thank you. Before before we. Get into the We're going to talk about Liberty Exchange, right? Daphne, before we get into that, the agenda that I had printed at my home computer didn't include the master plan work session. So I don't know if my printer didn't pick it up or if it was this one.

It's on another page.

Is this on the agenda that was sent from Yale?

yeah it's on a it's on page three so maybe that didn't print out correctly ralph and i didn't pick it up maybe we were hoping that we wouldn't have to do that when we get to the end that's always because it's a work session we can always choose to um delay that if the other agenda items take up

My wife asked me this morning she said do you think you've got a long meeting today I said it doesn't look like it's too bad but I said I'm hesitant to say that because every time I do it turns into you know we get into other things It all depends on how long some of the discussion is Item number nine, the concept site plan S23019 for Liberty Exchange, the first amended site plan. And we turn it over to Amy.

Good morning, Amy Barcroft with Development Review Division here again for S230019, Liberty Exchange Amended Site Plan. This is here for your review and direction for a concept site plan. If you could introduce yourselves.

Yeah, I'm Annie Luttrell with St. John Properties, the developer.

I'm Jim Matthias with Development Design Consultants.

All right, thank you. So you'll see on the screen in front of you, we are located at Exchange Drive in Eldersburg, Maryland, Commissioner District 5. The property is zoned, excuse me, light industrial, which is I1. And you'll see that the site is comprised of those two highlighted areas in an existing business park. The existing business park is familiar as Liberty Exchange, which was a 2006 site plan which has been approved and constructed, leaving those two sections, lots one and three, undeveloped in the front of the business park. So we are located along the north side of Old Liberty Road at the intersection of Exchange Drive. As I said, lot one and three are here undeveloped sites. And the subject of this amended site plan, the developer wishes to further develop them and change what was previously proposed for those site lots. So as part of the larger business park, there is an existing stormwater pond that treats the water runoff from the business park. The subject property, as I said, is Zone Light Industrial. To the west, we have subdivisions in the R-40000 and Conservation Zone. We are running alongside Maryland Route 26, Liberty Road, and we are inside the Freedom Growth and Priority Funding area. The property is also served by water and sewer. So the amended site plan was initially submitted to us in June of 2025 and distributed for review. Lot one is to the west. Let me skip forward. This is a slide showing the existing conditions of lot one and lot three. And this slide shows those conditions with what is proposed. Lot one is proposed with building G, a 9,500 square foot retail building with a small section for outdoor seating. And access to lot one will be with Old Liberty Road and Exchange Drive, and those lead into internal circulation connecting to the Greater Business Park. Lot three is located to the east and proposed with Building I, a 9,472 square foot retail building with an additional outdoor seating area. And just like lot one, lot three can be accessed by either Old Liberty Road or Exchange Drive. Traffic is then ultimately circulated out of the business park at that intersection between Exchange Drive and Liberty Road with a traffic light. So I'd like to show you some images of how the site looks today. This is an image of the business park in the background with lot one to the left and lot three will be to the right. And it's showing traffic coming into the three-way stop sign and ultimately then into the business park. And this is the image from the opposite point of view. If you are standing at the business park facing Maryland, uh, route 26, which is Liberty road. So, um, in the foreground, you'll see again, that three-way stop sign, which provides circulation until you reach the stoplight. And the stoplight is along that state highway intersection. This image is showing lot one, it's undeveloped. We do see that we already have some sidewalk which will continue to provide internal circulation in the business park. And this shows lot three on the other side, undeveloped. Here's another image of that lot three with the business park in the background. Let me just go back to the plan. Sorry if I'm making you dizzy. I apologize. The plan elevations depict a gray facade with excuse me, a brick facade with gray, white and red colors. They're going to be painted steel canopies that will accent the storefronts. And the proposed building height is 29 feet, which does meet the zoning code requirements. There are 30-foot pole-mounted lights that are going to eliminate the parking lots, and a photometric plan showed that lighting levels at the property lines is zero. I'm sorry. Excuse me. so additional landscaping plantings are proposed along the eastern and southern property line to meet the requirements of the landscape manual and this will enhance the landscaping that's already well established along the perimeter of the business park as well i wanted to note a additional freestanding monument sign has been constructed through the building permit process and as shown as part of this amended site plan that monument sign is 30 feet in height pivoting back to the review of this plan a traffic impact study was previously conducted when the site plan for the business park initially came in in 2007 that was traffic study was reviewed and at that time when the business park came in as a whole These two lots were proposed to have higher uses, higher impact use. So one was proposed to have a high turnover sit down restaurant and the other lot was proposed to have a convenience store with fueling stations. Both of those uses were included in the traffic study that was done at that time. um and off-site traffic mitigation and improvements were required to address those traffic study implications they've already been constructed with the initial business park so once this amended site plan has come in for a review the two uses the retail buildings are a lower impact as far as the traffic implications are concerned so No further traffic mitigation improvements are required according to the engineering review of that initial parking study. I also wanted to note that parking is tabulated for the business park as a whole and the traffic, excuse me, the parking tabulation requires 778 spaces altogether. The amended site plan now has 964 proposed spaces. So parking is sufficient according to the code requirements. Comprehensive planning reviewed the plan and determined that it was consistent with applicable plan policies and recommendations. The stormwater management design is being addressed with that regional facility to the rear of the business park and concept stormwater management approval was granted. Stormwater review team found that the current features on the site are adequate to handle the additional stormwater impact. So similarly, forest conservation was already addressed at this site with the initial site plan. So forest conservation has approved the plan. Concept landscape approval has been granted. Grading and utilities have issued comments to be addressed on the final site plan. And I also wanted to note that an amended plat is being processed to address the relocation of water and sewer easements on lots one and three. The project is exempt from the floodplain code, water resources, the Carroll County Health Department, emergency services, state highway, and the zoning administration have approved the plan. During the review process, this plan was discussed at the Technical Review Committee meeting, or as we like to call it, TRC, and that meeting was held on July 28, 2025. At that time, we did have citizen feedback and engagement from several citizens who live in the adjacent subdivisions. They utilize the intersection of Exchange Drive and Old Liberty Road as well. And they discussed their concerns that, as I showed you in the photo, that three-way stop sign can create difficulty with people understanding the rules of the road and knowing when to yield to other traffic, other drivers. So our engineering review staff has determined that that is an existing condition concern and those kind of review actions would be further coordinated with our Department of Public Works engineering review as well as law enforcement to make sure that drivers are obeying the posted stop signs and understanding that traffic coming from liberty road does not have a stop sign this final site plan will be tested for adequacy of public facilities in accordance with chapter 155 and again we are here before you for a review of this concept plan as well as your direction and any feedback you'd like to give Please let me know if you have any questions.

I have a question.

Sorry.

The design of the buildings, is it going to be similar to the existing buildings in the back?

It'll be very close to the first two buildings that face Liberty Road. It's being designed very similar to that.

There is a turn signal off of Liberty Road there at that intersection, right?

So the light is at Liberty Road, and the three-way stop is a little further to the north at Old Liberty Road and Exchange. This is the location of the three-way stop sign, and this is the location of the traffic signal.

Right. So the concerns of the citizens were what? I don't quite understand.

So traffic that is exiting Liberty Road comes from the traffic signal, the light, and does not stop. The other directions are stopped. And I think there were concerns about different drivers either not yielding or anticipating that it was a four-way stop when it's a three-way. So here you have a combination of a county road, Exchange Drive, which is a private road, and State Highway controlling Liberty Road. So again, coordinating those governing agencies for the existing conditions and the concerns with traffic, being aware of who has the right-of-way.

Okay. Because that stretch of the road much better than if you go from 32 when down towards Baltimore County that's a mess but from 32 up towards where we're talking about now there's been a lot of improvements made there and they're really positive improvements that's why and that that stop sign and turn signal that works 24 7 right okay Just wanted to clear a couple things up I was just wondering about.

So there is a traffic light at Clemel, well Clemel and then White Rock and then this one. So I understand not wanting to be out on Liberty Road. My daughter works back in the park for her doctor office and she was just complaining to me about coming down Liberty Road in the morning she said from 97 down to St. John she said it's crazy to get through there so so currently it's i i go in there a bunch but other than stopping don't pay attention so it's currently three stop signs that are there

And I will tell you, after the TRC meeting, we did forward the citizens' concerns to SHA, because that is an SHA light, and they looked at some upgrades they could do and submitted a design request, but that's an SHA process. So we did forward the concerns to them, and there's some things they could possibly do on that stoplight.

So is that something SHA takes care of, or do they pass the price on to St. John's?

That would be SHA doing that.

So how many businesses are you preparing for on these two sites?

So it depends. So we have retail buildings. They're each about 9,500 square feet. Front and back? Total, so yeah.

Total, okay.

One is 9,500, the other one's 9,500, and one business could take the whole building, or we could have them in multiple bays, so we really don't know how many businesses, but the square footage is staying the same.

Okay.

The 30-foot monument sign, is that the existing sign, or is there gonna be another, a new 30- It's a second monument sign. And where will that be?

it is located basically symmetrical to the existing sign on the other side of Exchange Drive. You can kinda see the little rectangle on that site plan.

So the existing is to the right and the proposed is over here. Over here, okay.

Well, it's existing now. They're both existing now.

And the same kind of sign, same type of sign, because that's not a digital display sign, I don't think. It's just a... No, it's not. Okay.

So will that remain the old one?

Yes.

Okay.

What's the height of that existing sign?

They're about the same height.

Any other questions from the board?

Any public comment? Okay, step to the microphone, state your name and your address.

Hi, my name is Mike Myers. I did sign in already.

Thank you.

And my address is 5805 Artisan Drive in Eldersburg. I'm the secretary of the board of Sumner's Hollow HOA. And this homeowners association is right next to, if you can put up the slide that shows the proposed.

Oops, wrong way. Sorry, guys.

So our association is to the west side, going up Garroway. And our community, well, we support the businesses in Liberty Exchange, and we welcome the new retail businesses that will be moving in. Our board members recently discussed this plan, and we had the following traffic concerns. Our first traffic issue is that when Liberty Exchange was first built in 2010, construction vehicles were traveling to and from their Enterprise Street location through our residential streets. Specifically, this was on Ronsdale Drive and Garrow Way. When we raised this issue to Mr. Clay Black of Carroll County, he contacted St. John Properties and they posted no construction traffic signs on Garrow Way and they immediately informed the contractor to stay off the roads. That quickly fixed the construction traffic issue going through our community. And we hope St. John Properties can post the signs again when they begin construction and inform their contractors to stay off of our streets. The second traffic issue that we foresee is with the impact of traffic exiting the parking lot of lot one of the new retail building. That's the lot one is the one on the west side. And to the left of there, you can see there is an exit right onto Old Liberty, which Miss Amy talked about earlier. And there's only, this is all, there's a lot of roads in there that are just close to each other. At the bottom, at the south side, you have Liberty Road, then it comes into Exchange Drive, and then you have old Liberty Road, and then down at the end, you can see, up at the extreme left, you see Guerra Way, going to our community. These are, these are all close to each other. And there at Garroway and Old Liberty, it looks like there's a big circle in the middle of the road. That's from a huge sycamore tree. It's got a very large trunk. And that blocks the view. So the problem that we have is that currently vehicle traffic already often backs up in the morning and afternoon from Exchange Drive to Garrow Way. And this is part of the craziness that's out on Liberty Road. People try to get off of Liberty Road and take a shortcut down. They get onto Litton Road or could be going the other way, and they fly down Old Liberty Road into here.

Sir in fact that little alarm you heard was the 3 minute timer so if I want to give you like another 30 seconds if you could quickly wrap up please.

We're concerned, we're thinking that to remove the entrance from the parking lot to Old Liberty because it's gonna make a bigger traffic mess or something that's already there. And I would like to have questions with staff after the meeting.

Okay, all right, thank you. Any other public comment?

good morning my name is Lisa Masano I live on Ronsdale Road and I was one of the residents that came last summer and spoke to my concern I drive through this this intersection because this is how I get out to Liberty Road from Guerra and my concern is the three-way stop because I feel like that it's not necessarily a volume issue for most of the time, it's more of a compliance issue with the three-way stop with the stop sign on both sides of Old Liberty Road and Exchange Drive coming from the shopping center. and the three-way stop doesn't always yield to the people coming off of Liberty Road. So when I come home from going to wherever in Sykesville, I turn onto that little, it's literally like a hundred feet between that three-way stop and the traffic light. you turn on there and you don't know whether those people are stopping a lot of times they just start going because they assume that you are supposed to stop as well and so it's like almost a game of chicken every time when you try to turn left at that that three-way stop sign so I understand that it's a an issue with the the state and you have to go through those channels but one but the suggestions that we made last year were ways we could draw attention to that for the people coming out of the shopping center because i feel like those are the people that mostly run straight they see the green light and they just go straight and don't stop were like rumble strips leading up to that stop sign flashing lights on the stop sign or additional signage that the oncoming traffic does not stop it does say that on the stop sign but people still don't stop And so my concern is that as we build out, as you guys build out more of the shopping center and then on the on the south side of Liberty Road, it's going to be Liberty Exchange, too. I came I saw that on the agenda that's going to be built out. So then that traffic light is now going to become a four way traffic light and just going to draw more traffic to the area. I'm concerned just with, you know, that that that situation is going to get aggravated. So I ask that you consider doing those kind of rumble strip things or those are things that maybe we could do that don't seem terribly expensive and could be done without perhaps the state addressing what they could do to try to improve that situation. So thank you for your time.

Thank you. Any more public, one more?

uh good morning my name is laura thorpe i live at 708 conservatory drive i'm a member at large on the homeowners association board um i'm gonna be a little bit repetitive but i understand what keeps what keeps getting repeated by um your staff is that there's a three-way stop sign but the third stop sign is for traffic on the the right side of your screen well traffic there's no traffic coming there because nothing's built there so we basically have a two-way stop sign and it's not working people coming out of that shopping center are looking up at the light and they are not seeing the stop sign again we asked for rumble strips we've asked the i was told by miss keating that we're not going to put up a flashing light but at least rumble strips would not be a big expense to the the st john's properties because the county can't do it because it's not a county road um the other problem is and and i realize this is not st john's properties issue but because traffic gets backed up on um coming across uh 26 like i'm sorry i don't know your name came down from um traveling east on 26 people will cut over and fly down Old Liberty Road. They use it as a racing strip. When the young people get out of school, they run down there. I've taken pictures of the blacktop or the tire marks that they use to play down that part of the street. It's just not safe. We need a four-way stop sign at the intersection of Old Liberty Road and Exchange, and we need a three-way stop sign at Gira and Old Liberty Road. I want to know how many accidents have to happen before we get what we're asking for. What we're asking for is not unreasonable. It's quite reasonable. we've asked for it last year at the july meeting i reached out to staff twice what the response i got back was it's under discussion i reached out to miss keating of st john's properties the answer i got twice was it's under discussion but no one ever got back to me about what the results of the discussion were thank you thank you okay

Any additional comments? Mr. Chairman, can I ask a question? Sure. I'd just like to clarify, who owns what here as far as the roads go? So the four-way stop sign, or stop signs, three-way, who owns the roads? Okay, so you have the old road, the old Liberty Road.

Is a county-maintained road?

That's county-maintained.

Exchange Drive is a private drive?

Exchange is a private drive that's controlled by St. John's Properties, right?

Yes.

Gearaway is a county road.

I believe so. Is that right? Yes.

It just seems to me like there's a problem here. I'm trying to figure out who needs to be informed here to straighten this out, because it is a problem.

So this site plan does go through the review of our engineering reviewer. Additionally, the conversations that you've heard today about the existing conditions are discussions that have had with our Department of Public Works engineering department, ultimately the roads department, the department of public works are the ones who determine how to handle those existing conditions on county roads.

So I mean I hate to be a person who would hold hold this entire project up because of this but it just seems like there should be a resolve to this so that I mean with the number of people that's concerned about what's going on here and I've had occasion to to go down to that area quite frequently and I understand what they say that the stop sign you're looking at the stop light and the stop sign is right in front of you and you're trying to do two things at once and I'd just like to somehow find out what what the solution would be

not holding you up i right i don't ultimately the developer isn't able to address issues with the county roads because that has to be coordinated with our department of public works it has to be authorized by them the developer isn't able to address those county roadway markings signage those sort of things and i'm not i'm not blaming a developer here at all

but there there is a problem and i i'd like to see a solution to it right i really think that that's i'd really like to see some definitive somebody stand up here in front of us and say this is what we're going to do so that all these concerns they're not all going to go away but certainly we can mitigate a lot of this and in the meantime not hold up what you're doing that is a very that's a very well-developed project you have there I've looked many times and and I give you credit for that but we have a problem here that's not your not your problem but it is a problem that needs to be fixed I want to know how when you're gonna fix it seems like you just really need a lot of targeted traffic enforcement especially we got the high school kids racing out of there and We've got plenty of law enforcement in this county. It seems like somebody, well, I'm not gonna go there. I just wanna figure out how the citizens can understand that we're gonna be working on this problem and have a resolve to it and not hold up your project. that's just not fair to do that it's it's I don't even see how we can do that I'm concerned about this I understand what I understand what you're saying and it is you're right and you're right not to have this held up okay I just

so this is a concept plan so as they move a little bit forward we will definitely see this again I understand the concern a four-way stop sign I think would not be a good idea because traffic coming off of Liberty could get stopped and extend back out onto Liberty, because it's not a huge length there. But that may be something that's beneficial.

I think the rumble strips would help a lot. Now, on old Liberty Road, you'd have to go through the state to get that approval, but hopefully they would be open to having some kind of strips there to just slow everybody down.

Well, Old Liberty would be county.

So that's state. Old Liberty.

No, Old Liberty is county road. County, yeah.

Oh, it is?

Liberty is state. Used to be state.

Oh, okay. Well, then that, you know, just try to put some rules.

So, if I may, I think we have multiple things that we might want to attack separately but in conjunction with each other. We have the site-specific concerns, it sounds like, relating to two things that I hear. Number one is the stop at Exchange Drive north of Old Liberty. So that is clearly on the site, on the project site that we're talking about here and is a major concern because people are not stopping at that stop light because they're looking i mean stop sign because they're looking at the stop light that may be something that you can direct the developer to specifically address in the next iteration of this the other thing related to this specific plan is the question of the access road between exchange drive and garaway So if you have any direction for them with respect to that, it would be helpful to know that now. The other concerns related to Old Liberty Road sound like a little bit bigger than just this specific site and something that we're already talking with our Department of Public Works about to try to address. it's related but sort of separate in terms of the specific things that we can ask the developer to come back to us with for on the next go around. Does that sound about right? Am I kind of? then and then then there may be some discussions with State Highway that also get folded in there but for next steps for the developer I think if there are specific things that you want to ask them to come back to you to demonstrate that they've addressed it sounds like the biggest ones are that stop sign at exchange drive north of Old Liberty and then the access on site one that's between exchange and gara if you have any direction for them would it be appropriate for us to ask the sheriff's department to

to review this and come in with some recommendations based on traffic control. I don't know anybody that would be more familiar with trying to mitigate certain circumstances like this than the Sheriff's Department. I'd like to know what, what they would think about this. Maybe they would have some suggestions that, if I understand the testimony here, that they've contacted the sheriff's department with no real response. I'd like to see a response.

Is that appropriate? For purposes of this project, we cannot tell the sheriff what to or what not to do. We work in conjunction with them, but in this realm, they are considered a separate legal entity than the county.

So if I were to run into the sheriff at one of the commissioner or delegate fundraising events, I could say, hey, You know, do something about old liberty between White Rock and, because it's a speed trap.

So we as a commission cannot require. I'm not going to the commission. Because they're considered a state entity for this purpose. They are not considered a county entity. That does not mean that you cannot have a discussion with them for funsies on your own time, not as a commission member. Yeah.

Yes. And, I mean, as far as going out onto Old Liberty from, I guess it's Lot 1, I admit I would probably be one that would take that, not going left, but going right and going up to White Rock and then back through the development over to Clay Mill, because if I can avoid liberty in the evening, I will. And I think some of this, it's not something we can ask them, but I think maybe education at the high school to say to the principal, try discussing with your students that, there is traffic that is going crazy down there, and the kids need to do better, because they don't only do it on Old Liberty, they do it, Clee Mill, because when they get out of school, they go crazy.

I mean it's in the sad state is as I was being more rural because on my side of the county I've called numerous times about the bypass because our northern neighbors like to pass you on the shoulder on double yellow lines and all that stuff and they've been told look we only have I think there's like two Carroll County Sheriff's assigned to the entire 30 corridor and you have maybe four Hampstead cops and four Manchester cops and you know it's like It's only a matter of time before somebody dies on that road, but it's not a, it's a no-win situation, it really is.

Yeah, it's not limited to there. I've had them go around here on their own.

Yeah, it's crazy.

So let's try to move this forward here. So hearing that we should include in the, and it is concept, and this is our opportunity to say, I don't like the XYZ, the sign's too high, the lighting, whatever, all those things, but they're not the issues. It's the traffic, it's the three-way stop sign, it's the approach to the three-way stop sign, I guess. and then the signage for the community while construction is going on I saw you taking notes so I think you'll take care of that but so can we you know as concepts say we like this but here's the conditions we need some traffic mitigation study On the county, Old Liberty County Road, we need the study of the three-way stop sign. Could it be a four-way stop sign? I'm with you, Janice. I doubt it because traffic flowing off of Liberty into there and stopping and then back on the Liberty Road would be far worse. So I think the three-way works except for people ignoring the sign. help them not ignore the sign. Is it a little speed hump? Is it the rumble strips? Is it whatever? And I'm not a traffic road expert, but DPW can certainly weigh in on how to help us solve this situation, not tell us, well, it doesn't need to be done. No, we need a solution. You need to tell us what the options are.

then I think that's how we should frame this up to get this moving forward so just to clarify a traffic impact study was done and reviewed with this amended site plan the traffic study was done with the original business park in 2007 are you requesting a new traffic study be conducted just to clarify

I don't get that sense I get that we're not asking for a traffic study we're asking for traffic mediation or some kind of intersection that intersection there to be act like a real intersection for lack of better words But I don't think a study's needed. Now, when the, somebody mentioned the other side of Liberty Road, there's gonna be more. Maybe that's when another traffic study's warranted, depending on how large that development's gonna be, or the developing's gonna be over there. But I think for this right now, I don't see a, and I'm talking for the board here. You disagree with me, say so.

I agree with you I'd much rather and going back to the patrolling that area I'm gonna sound like a broken record but I'd rather see our Sheriff's Department down there trying to mitigate the problem than to be down there working on traffic accidents I think their time would be more well spent trying to mitigate the problem than the otherwise I would just ask the citizens down there to inundate the county sheriff's office with calls to help you out down there.

I'm sure they're already doing that.

I hope so.

So can we get a forward here with some recommendations on the concept plan? I think we already gave the recommendations. I know but I don't know that they can't come from me can they? No. We all agree.

Can we say so? So I would make a recommendation that we have the county and the developer together look at some type of mitigation for that three-way stop sign that is currently there and to consider that access off of the first lot onto gara road if there would be some way to either.

Slow traffic.

Yeah, slow traffic coming through there. Did we cover that, Daphne?

So I just want to clarify that second part there. The access from lot one, that westernmost access point, you're suggesting that you want them to take a look at that to determine maybe best you know whether it's a right turn out only or um some type of best practice to so you want you want to leave that access point as an access point but look at how to mitigate the concerns around its proximity to the other to garaway and exchange drive Yeah. So it looks like.

So how far is Garrett Drive from there? Gearway? Is that and is that a blind turn? I mean, it looks like it's curved here. So would you see the traffic quickly that is coming from Garrah or for that you know what I mean well you've heard some testimony that there might be some sight distance issues related to it a tree yeah But the alternative is if you eliminate that and force it back through Exchange Drive, then that's going to create more traffic flow and air.

So would you like them to look at, investigate making that right out only?

Or, I don't know. I don't think I'm in favor of making it not be there. But some options, I guess, for that. And if it's that it really would be best suited not to be there because the site distance is a problem, then it shouldn't be there. which doesn't help your recommendation.

Well, I suppose you could ask them to come back the next time they come back to you to at least explain how they've addressed those concerns.

I have a question though. between I guess 3 and 2 there is the road going to continue all the way through there up to the existing buildings there's a whole way to the back the exchange goes all the way back there's a whole way back are you talking about this exchange drive or this access drive here this access drive yeah that doesn't go all the way back it continues up into that existing parking lot but then there is a parking island with some benches and grass in front of those two retail buildings so it will connect them to the parking lot but not all the way to the back buildings some of the traffic would then come down and utilize old liberty possibly correct

And I will let you guys know from the pictures that Amy had brought up, we did notice that some of the striping coming down off Exchange Drive and stuff had worn off. So we've committed to making sure that all stays painted, what we can do on our private property to make sure those pavement markings stay there and are very visible.

Yeah and I just want to add that the access from lot one on to Garroway that was part of the original site plan that Amy mentioned when that lot was a gas a gas convenience store So that so the way it is now is the way it would you're looking at doing With a less intense use on that on that lot

those are just previously approved access points access points right okay so it's still going to be planned coming out onto old liberty i didn't know that it'd go in there for itself okay Hopefully that will help your concerns out there Got what you need Daphne

I think so let me just recap what you're asking to see the next time this comes back to you you want to see that the county and the developer have done specific mitigation of problems that have been noted related to the three-way stop condition and in particular people not stopping when they are supposed to and also um to uh at least uh describe how they are proposing to address concerns related to the proximity of the westernmost access point of lot one to garrow way did i miss anything i don't think so i don't think so

Okay.

Thank you.

So just to, question, not anything with what to do, but doesn't St. John, they manage their buildings there too, correct? Correct. So maybe a memo out to the people that are taking spots there to make sure, you know, they're stopping. Any kind of reinforcement is good because we as humans tend to forget things.

Yeah, we can definitely look into any of that. Thank you.

All right. Well, thank you. We'll see you soon.

Thank you.

Okay. Moving along to item number 10, Education Facilities Master Plan, an introduction. I see Mr. Kane's here.

He is.

Bill, you want to take it away?

Morning. Mine's going to be, well, my presentation is going to be pretty brief. I'll be happy to answer as many questions as you want.

We thought the last one was going to be brief, too. Me, too.

I came over thinking, you know, agenda item eight, that it wouldn't be here too long. It was interesting though. So this is the annual update of the 10-year Educational Facility Master Plan. It was presented to the Board of Education last week. It goes back to them for their approval at the June meeting and it's due to the Maryland Department of Planning by July 1 and the Interagency Commission on School Construction by the same time. it's a requirement of our state capital funding so to get funding for capital projects we have to do this facility master plan like I said it's the annual update there's a couple changes to the plan from last year I just want to highlight and then I'd be happy to answer any questions the big change i think uh that everyone is interested in is um the the two additions uh the freedom elementary edition and the sykesville middle edition have been removed from the plan and that's really based on the enrollment the new updated enrollment projections so the past two um school years the the enrollments in the southeast area well really county-wide have been lower than expected we were growing uh enrollment wise from 2017 to 2023 the school system grew by about 800 850 students the past two school years we've lost countywide we've declined about I think it's almost 400 students so really why does that happen it's just you know when you're growing you're gaining students larger kindergarten classes but also you know from first grade to second grade if a family moves in you get more second graders than you had first graders so we were growing as families were moving in the last two years that's kind of stabilized and we're not really seeing the growth between grades and the kindergarten enrollments are a little lower than they had been previously so you know if larger classes that came in previously aren't were you know you don't have those same size classes coming in the kindergarten you you just gradually lose enrollment because they're not replaced it's not that kids moved away it's just we're not seeing as many new students coming in You know, so basically based on those last two years of lower enrollments, the projections have kinda, and we do projections every year to try and catch the trends as they're happening, but the new set of projections aren't showing quite as much growth out into the future, so the additions, you know building an addition when the when the growth wasn't there to support it you know the board made well they haven't approved it yet but staff is recommending that those additions be removed what does that mean for uh what does this plan say for um the concurrency management adequate public facilities ordinance So right now the new projections there are no schools that are would be considered inadequate so no schools will be over a 120% in the next 6 years. There are 2 schools that will be approaching inadequate. Freedom Elementary is one it's it's projected to be around a hundred fourteen hundred fifteen hundred sixteen percent it varies year to year and Sykesville middle there are three years and then you know in the coming six years where it'll be over a hundred and ten percent when you look out for Sykesville middle though past think it's it'll it'll be growing over the next three school years but then looking out past that it kind of comes the enrollments come back down because the lower enrollment that's been coming into the early elementary grades the last two kindergarten classes six seven years out will be in middle school so basically it's like a bubble will move through Sykesville middle but then We don't see it continuing to be as overcrowded in the future. So there's still concerns about some overcrowding, but freedom The 115%, they've been over 120 the past few years and 115. So we'll continue to manage it short term with the portables that are there. If next year's enrollment we see a change, the Board of Ed will have to look at other possible alternatives. At one time they did form a registering committee. That's a long time ago now. That was actually pre-COVID. it doesn't seem like that long ago but it when I look back I'm like wow that was seven seven years ago the so that's you know the big change that most folks probably are interested in the other changes for the pre-k at pre-kindergarten additions um we're currently getting ready to start phase one of uh of a pre-kindergarten addition project to increase uh the number of pre-k offerings the number of pre-k offerings related to blueprint um we've actually we'll be building between this summer next summer that will be opening 10 new pre K classrooms which which will provide 200 additional pre K seats so. And we haven't been seen quite the increase in pre K enrollment them initially I think when blueprint was passed everyone was working you know. all school systems were expecting a big influx of more pre-kindergarten students we haven't seen it as happen as rapidly as maybe they originally predicted and part of that is as blueprints evolving there and you know the deadlines they set they're they're kind of and the funding they're providing, they're moving deadlines out and adjusting. So we've just, in this master plan, we're recommending pushing out phase two and phase three of those pre-kindergarten additions out two years. So we'll wait and see. I guess this year we're gonna open pre-kindergarten classrooms at the four, full day k additions that are the last four which are cranberry station friendship valley sandy mountain tawny town elementary and then next summer we'll be opening six more pre-kindergarten classrooms at um at um it'll be elmer wolf Robert Moten, Runnymede, Spring Garden, Westminster and William Winchester elementary schools so with that amount of pre-kindergarten classes opening up we're gonna kind of see how that goes if if they fill really quick and then we have a wait list then we may be next year I may be back saying we're gonna push phase two and phase three back up but but right now it's looking like those may not be needed for a little bit. Those are the big changes to the projects that were in the plan. As I said, there's an updated set of enrollment projections in the plan. The adequate public concurrency management, there are no schools now for this year that will be considered inadequate. There are still those two that are gonna be approaching. and the rest of the plan is kind of you know it's a pretty long document but it it's it's pretty much the same as last year so be happy to answer any questions that you have so i saw um liberty high is gonna get correct that renovation so we've been asking for Liberty High it's been in the plan and good news is this year the county commissioners did include funding in their proposed capital budget that was released last month so you know they're still to adopt the plan but we expect it to get adopted so that's that's great news so we'll be moving ahead this summer with doing a feasibility study so we'll hire an architect and engineers to look at how would we go about modernizing the school so usually when we do a modernization a feasibility study we look at can we build a replacement school on site um because a new building a new building you know there's there's a lot of advantages to building a new building if you can do it it's more energy efficient you don't have to worry about phasing students you know renovating with students in the building and moving them around and keeping everybody safe But they'll also look at renovating and adding on to the current building. And then they'll also probably look at just if we just renovate the existing building and don't add space to it, update the systems, what would that cost? We expect to have that study done December, January timeframe. It'll get presented to the Board of Education and then that'll kind of help everyone make a decision on what the project would look like. Will it be a replacement? Will it be a renovation with some additions? How much will it cost? How long will it take? That kind of information. It is good news. I think there's a lot of people excited to address that school.

That's what Baltimore County did with Delaney. They did all the studies and they found that yes it's more money but it wouldn't be that much more to actually build a completely new school from scratch than it would have been to actually renovate the existing one because that's why it took so long for that one to come out and I mean it is more but percentage wise it is kind of negligible most of the schools in the state and you know it generally makes more sense if you can build a replacement because it actually most of the time costs less money

to do that than to renovate because if you're renovating you have to move students out of the building and then you have to bring portable classrooms in and just to move one portable which we have two classroom portable classroom buildings but to move one of those so two classrooms it's three to four hundred thousand dollars so if you you need to move ten to to move enough kids out to actually get enough room to renovate because a contractor can't renovate two or three classrooms at a time it's just it's it would take forever it would take years several more years so um you know the replacements generally happen if school systems have the room to do it um the the difficult thing is sometimes on existing school sites you don't have the space to do that but mr kane when schools are renovated does the state contribute the same way they would on a new build they they do they they always on major projects new schools renovations additions they start with a justified enrollment number and when they say justified enrollment they look at your enrollment of that school but also the adjacent schools and the and the compared to the state where capacities because you know you know a scenario where a school system wants to renovate a school that's at 50% utilization and there's neighboring schools that have space the state would say we don't want to put our money into a school that's not a good investment because you have enough room you don't need that building why would we put more money in a building that's unnecessary so they always start with justified enrollment and then once you get to an enrollment number they have a formula to get to how many square feet per student they'll pay for uh so if you have 500 students and they they'll do 200 square feet per student then then they'll get to how how big the building ought to be in their eyes and then that's the portion they'll fund so um but yeah they they don't differentiate necessarily uh from a new school versus a replacement or a renovation

I don't want to just switch gears to ask you about the tech center. Is that completed? It is. And the second part of that question, then, is how utilized is it? I mean, what percentage of total utilization do you have there, and what do you see moving forward?

So the Career and Tech Center was completed, the last phase was completed in 2024. The Tech Center actually is a bit unique in that it doesn't have a state-rated capacity. It's a shared time center, so students don't go there the entire school day they go you know they'll start their day at their homes high school and then they'll go to the Career and Tech Center for two or three mods periods during a day and they generally only go two semesters well some programs are three semesters but most programs are just two semesters of their high school career so it's but with that being said every program that's there is I would say most almost full and a lot of them have waiting list there might be you know a couple programs where they have 20 seats but they only have 15 kids so they have they could have five more kids but there are other programs where they have 40 seats but they have 80 kids that want to take it so they have a wait list for some programs but it is fully all of the programs have students in them and most of them are full so i would say it's very well utilized

so we have capacity uh to assist the students all the students that want to go there they might have to wait but they will be taken care of is that is that what you're doing so i think they're a tremendous asset there are still some programs i think that have waiting lists they do the the instructional side does their best to to get every kid in

in the program in that they want that they can but it i will say it's probably not always possible but that you know a student has to pick their top three programs or two programs sometimes when they're when they're looking to go and they may get their second choice and um you know it it is a very popular thing i think our county compared to some other counties have a have a high very high percentage of students going through the career and tech programs compared to some of the other counties. Because of the center and the staff, the teachers are such, you know, it's so interesting and they do such a great job, I think.

They really do, it's a tremendous asset for our educational system here in the county. That's why I was wondering about that, so thank you.

do um you track where students if they're going to private schools is there any way you all know that so we we don't track them necessarily but the state department of education does have private school enrollments they they collect private school enrollment data but it's kind of self-reported by the private schools and they don't you don't always know how many um students for you you might see the numbers but you don't necessarily see how many came from carroll county um i we do look at From time to time the the private schools in Carroll County to see if their enrollments have increased or or declined Because you know, you would assume the private schools in Carroll County have mostly Carroll County students We I will say we haven't seen a large increase you know anything that stands out over the past few years but we do look we do look at the information we're somewhat we have to wait till MSDE the State Department of Ed publishes it

I see the buses for private schools St. Joe I think they share Mount DeSales and yeah McDonough and somebody else so you see them running yeah several of them do run buses into the to the county

So typically what we'll do is Bill will come to give you kind of the highlights of the plan and then we'll share the electronic copy of the plan with you right after this meeting then we'll come back to you at the June meeting with usually a kind of a draft letter of comment for you to review and um and sign we do need to send a letter to the board of ed with a finding of consistency with the master plan so that they can submit the plan to the state okay any don't leave it any uh public comment

Now you can leave. Okay, thank you. Thanks Bill. All right. Okay. Item 12, the test, the test or text amendment, ADU. Hold on.

We have a little while.

I really want to get through this. The master plan transit, transportation, informational only presentation.

So just to put this in context, not too long ago, as part of one of our master plan discussions, we had been talking about transit within the county, and the request was made to have folks from our Department of Public Works come and just give you an overview of what transit looks like here, and in particular, what some of the opportunities are as well as where there might be some gaps so we have Brian Bocchi from our Department of Public Works and Stacey Graham also from Public Works who are going to give you an overview so we'll take it away good morning

We're just going to give you a pretty quick overview of the transit services that we provide currently. If you guys have any questions about that when we're done, or interrupt me at any time, that's also fine. So we have been providing transit in Carroll County for over 50 years. It started in our citizen services department in-house, and then we put it out to bid where Carroll Area Transit System, or CATS, which is what people still seem to call it, was awarded the first contract in 1987. They held the contract until 2015 when Butler Medical took over, was put out to bid, they won the bid, and then their subcontractor, Ride With Us, took over that contract. They have been our contractor since that time, and the name was changed from CATS, since that was the contractor, and now it is Carroll Transit System, CTS, that is going to be the name forever going forward, that is the county name for the system. The services that are provided, we have a fixed route service. It's our trailblazers. Those are the blue buses that you see running around. We have seven routes, some in Westminster, some in North Carroll, and one in Tonytown. They are fixed stops. So we have a schedule. They come to certain places at certain times of day. You can just hop on the bus, pay the fare, continue with your day. They all converge at the Workforce Development Center. So you can transfer between routes to get to different places in the county. We have our demand response service, which is a shared ride door-to-door system. Reservations are required for that. You call dispatch, you tell them where you wanna go and where you wanna be picked up. And if we have the availability, we will do so. Both of those services are funded by federal and state grants along with local dollars. Our veteran shuttle is available to all Carroll County veterans and that has service to the Baltimore VA, Fort Detrick and Frederick and the Martinsburg VA with additional other stops if you request them. The veteran shuttle is the only one that leaves the county. So Trailblazer and Demand Response both stay within Carroll County but anyone can ride. You don't need to be a qualified rider for either of those services.

Is a veteran shuttle on demand? In other words, daily, on call?

Yeah, it's reservation based. And we run Monday through Friday. But we run every day. There is at least one veteran that takes the shuttle. Little more about demand response. Fares, one-way fares are based on mileage, so the most you're gonna pay one way is $9, although you're gonna be hard-pressed to find a 20-plus mile ride from corner to corner of the county. Other discounts include seniors going to their local senior center for $2. Dialysis clients, if you're outside the Westminster area, coming into Westminster for dialysis is $5, and college students are 50% off. Exact fare is required. The buses don't carry change, but you can pay with cash or you can buy tickets from CTS or from the senior centers. And for demand response, you have a fare account option that you can pay on and then spend down as you ride. scheduling a trip you call CTS you talk to dispatch you tell them where you want to go and all of your information and as long as that's available they will them set that up for you and there is a no-show fee if you don't call at least an hour in advance and let us know that you don't need the ride Just some ridership statistics. As you can tell, our ridership was well above what it is now before COVID hit, but that is the case across the country. All of the door-to-door services have been impacted. But they have started to come back up, and I don't know exactly what happened in FY25 for that little dip, but we are on pace for FY26 to be over 85,000 riders for this year. Our disabled community is about 40,000 trips a year. That's who uses the system most. But we also have senior centers and medical centers and employment and just some shopping if you need to go to the grocery store. That's an education or the other locations typically that fill out that 80,000 riders. Trailblazers, fare is $2, it is half fare if you are a registered older adult or have a disability or a Medicare card holder. Same thing there, exact change, you have to have cash or a ticket to get on the bus. And the last time the fare increased for this system, for these services was 2011, and before that it hadn't been raised in 16 years. So these fares don't change often. There is also the ability for deviations. That's an additional dollar charge. Deviations are available within three quarters of a mile of a posted stop. So if you can't make that walk three quarters of a mile to the stop, you can call and schedule a deviation at least three hours before the bus would get to you and they could pick you up and then get back on the route as posted. Ridership or trailblazers so there was a big increase in our trailblazer ridership FY 23 that was kind of out of out of the covid downturn, but also we made some changes in FY 21 that made the routes a little easier to understand and easier to ride so they had a 30 minute loop they made more sense they all met together. So I I believe that is where our big increase in in ridership came from. Our Westminster route is obviously the most used, but North Carroll is coming in close. That is the most increasing route that we have currently. And just our little map doesn't really tell you a whole lot, but tells you where we're going. Our fleet, everything except for the, I think it's actually now two minivans, in our demand response fleet is handicap accessible. They all have lifts. So we have 31 of our white buses. That's our door-to-door service call schedule. We'll come pick you up in a white bus. The Trail Blazers, we have eight vehicles. They're all exactly the same. They're bright blue, and you will see a sign that is posted with the Trail Blazer will stop. and all you gotta do is wait by the sign for the bus to get you. And then the veteran shuttle, the mad dog shuttle named after Mike Sater. We have three vehicles, two ProMasters and then we just got a new minivan which works the best for downtown Baltimore because the ProMasters don't fit at the VA. A little more, a couple more notes. We do provide free deviations to the libraries that are on a transit route. So the North Carolina Library, the Taneytown Library and the Westminster Library. If you want to go to those, you just have to call and let them know and they can take you to the library for free. CTS has quarterly safety meetings. We are one of the safest transit services in the state of Maryland. We have eight holidays where CTS is closed. We are open on a few county holidays, President's Day, Martin Luther King Day, Juneteenth, Columbus Day, and Veterans Day. And then we also have a Transit Advisory Council, or TAC. The mission of the TAC is to advocate and assist with the implementation of the Carroll County Transportation Development Plan, which we are currently in the process of doing. That will be presented to our Board of Commissioners next week, I think. That's an every five-year plan that we kind of come up with the best ways to handle our transit system and the best things we can do with the little bit of money that we have. So that council meets on the second Monday of every month and has seven voting members. That's all I have. Brian, did I miss anything?

yeah no uh thank you for your interest um thank you for the invite daphne um we've been so this was a presentation that we gave to the board of county commissioners uh a year ago year and a half ago um they had sort of the same interest in kind of finding out more so um we're we're happy to answer any questions you have um stacy mentioned tac we've been having great attendance at our at our tac meetings um they've been really well attended by the public and the dd dds community dda community um i'm just trying to improve however we can and would love to hear any feedback or our our information is up on the screen so if you could improve it what would you do so there's um we we've done a lot of pilot programs across the last you know what we call five years um you know we've had suggestions for saturday routes we had suggestions for extended hours what other

Mount Airy.

Mount Airy. We're currently doing a pilot to cross the line in Mount Airy to see what kind of ridership we have. So we're always polling.

We also do a survey every fall. We take those results and we try to use those results the best that we can, but our TDP vendor for our transportation development plan also took that survey results and they based their recommendations on the survey.

And it seems like, you know, if money wasn't an object, I would say extended hours is probably the biggest ask, because I clarify the hours now, but it kind of just misses the afternoon work, 7 to 5. Yeah, so if you're working 9 to 5, you're going to have a tough time getting a ride home, or if you're, you know, some of the factory workers or things like that. At Random House, I think they started 7, which is kind of tough for some of those folks to catch a ride also.

is there any co-opting with neighboring counties no because we don't leave the county you do not leave the county other than the veterans shuttle just for carroll county veterans to go to veteran locations but the public transit does not leave the county because we do not have a trailblazer route in finksburg so the only free deviations are the ones that are on a fixed route

So with all the 55 and over that we're approving for the Freedom area, what happens there? Are you doing anything in that area? I mean, we're approving 55 and over all over the place.

So South Carroll has our second highest used door-to-door service. So that's available down there to anybody. And as those get built in, we will probably ask if they have any interest in getting a fixed route back. We had one down there before, but it was so underutilized thought you did that's why i was asking yes yeah um that route was discontinued in 2021 i believe um because there just wasn't the use um most people in south carol have a car and we reach out to a lot of the senior communities and ask them if they have any interest in a in a spot if we wind up putting another route back down there and most of the time the managers tell us no because everybody there has a car how often do we survey yearly yearly

Just to note that that's good to know because when we had some open houses last spring for our master plan, when we had the open house down in that area, we did get a lot of comments from people about the need for transit, especially I think for the disabled community. So just knowing that you are kind of constantly gauging what the demand for that would be is helpful. And of course, the fact that there is an on-demand kind of service available is something we can make sure people know about as well.

Is the federal and state grant money being impacted with you know current budget situations or

always impacted by budget it's not growing every year our federal portion of our grant has been basically flat for the last 10 years which is good that we're not losing any money but you know costs are going up so it's not really helping as much as it used to so the largest cost you have are the services are they subcontracted yes yes ride with us is our contractor contract with those folks is is that that's the largest expense um that it's a five-year contract with two one-year options

Do you have any fuel cost stipulations in those agreements?

So the fuel is actually a county expense. We use our fuel farm to fuel the buses. The buses are a county asset, and we provide all the maintenance on the buses, and the building is a county asset. So the contractor works out of a county building and runs county buses. They just provide the operations.

lawyers don't like to hear that I just know from the publishing business we cross those lines sometimes that's good program I think you've got decent amount decent numbers and hopefully they'll improve I do I do think that Ralph's making a good point with the senior center approvals that we've been doing Yeah and yes they do have cars held at the senior centers where the senior housing have three story townhomes with two car garages not not the kind of senior center or homes you would think of yeah it's good to keep keep track of that it's changed yeah yes it has cool thank you guys so much nice it's pretty simple we're good sorry public comments still Public comment? Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for coming in, guys.

Do you want this back? Yeah. Does anyone need a break before we go into ADUs? Yes.

Yes. Let's take a 10 minute break.

reconvening for the AD accessory dwelling unit discussion thank you so you'll recall we had an introduction to the modifications that were required to make to our code to reflect the state legislation that was passed two sessions ago, I think, HB 1466. And since that meeting, we've pulled together a draft set of text for a new ADU section based on your your suggestions at the last meeting this is kind of just a suggestion we can see how it goes and if you like the way it's shaping up we can stick with a separate section But you've received a copy of this ahead of time. So what Tiffany has done is tried to pull together all the different sections of our existing regulations related to ADUs and fit them into a new section for ease of use. And then also highlighted areas where we'll need to add some language to respond to the state legislation. before we dive into that though I just want to go over a couple of things that you received prior to this meeting as well first I want to acknowledge the great work that Tiffany is doing she's kind of leading this effort and has pulled together a team of folks from within the county to assist so this is not being done in isolation we've had our legal folks at the table folks from development review our zoning office permits the health department so we're trying to cover the the full range of people who have regular interaction when it comes to accessory dwelling units how they get approved how they get that sort of thing So they've been a wonderful addition to the conversation in helping us understand particularly how to answer some of your questions, which gets me to the other thing I just want to highlight before we dive into the text. So at the last meeting, you had had a couple of questions that we wanted to try to get some answers for you on. The first is looking at language that could be added into or enhanced into our code to clarify that ADUs are not eligible for future subdivision if you don't already have subdivision rights. So you can't build an ADU with no subdivision rights and then at some point in the future say that you want to try to divide that off as its own lot. So you'll see some of that language in the draft. We've also added in a statement to address the question about how ADUs are treated when there is a homeowners association. Essentially, what we've done with that is try to indicate that the obligation is on the homeowners association to make sure that their covenants and restrictions are in alignment with state law. We'll get to the question on how do you calculate the 75% of the primary dwelling unit. We've got a couple of options for how to explore that because the state legislation doesn't dictate that for us. So that's where we have a little bit of flexibility. And then we had questions about how some of our other regulations impact accessory dwelling units. So I'll just go through those very quickly. There was a question about if ADUs have to be sprinklered. and the the answer is yes sprinklers are required for any and all exterior new construction including new structures and or additions to existing structures so we will be looking at requiring sprinklers for new new construction

So that's moving forward that's not any ADU done in the last five years or whatever sprinklers

go ahead so it would we cannot retroactively require something that has its use and occupancy granted to it at this point it would be any new structure going forward however if you are doing work on a structure and you do not have like a new firewall put into place you may have to sprinkler old portions of structure as well that's going to be determined based on

number of various things including firewalls what kind of work it is you're doing how large that extension is etc based on what the fire codes were in the state of Maryland anyway this really honestly there should be no changes for what does or does not need to be sprinkled because of the state fire marshal codes for

the same yeah it's really no changes for for them yeah but an old home that had already had an accessory 12 like a in-law may not be sprinkler

Depending on how long ago it was it was done but if I mean if it if it was built even within the last couple years if it you know again the codes are kind of still the same so if it was supposed to have been sprinklered four years ago it you know what I mean

Some other questions you had was whether things like stormwater management and forest conservation would kick in when it comes to ADUs. And the answer to that is that ADUs would be reviewed to see if those apply. It could be applicable depending on the existing site conditions. stormwater management would, is sort of a cumulative thing, so if you've already got a certain amount of square footage of disturbance and you're adding to that, then you might have to address stormwater management at a certain point. and then the last one was related to well and septic we've gotten some clarification on that from the Health Department and what they've said is that the size of the septic system that's in place will sort of dictate whether an additional septic system or expansion of an existing one is required. Now that's for an attached. For a detached, they do automatically require an additional septic system and expansion. and replacement area, I guess, for that. So these are all things that we're trying to roll in as we're having these discussions with this kind of internal working group to make sure that what we're putting into the new proposed code is in alignment with all of the other requirements that other folks have in place.

So for ADUs on septic, that would require the much larger lot if you have to have a separate septic system, because you're going to have your original septic and you're building a separate smaller building, but you'll still need to do a septic plus a replacement.

That's our understanding, yeah.

Right, most probably an acre wouldn't cut it.

Yeah, it kind of depends on what the existing site conditions are.

That's what I said, it's just kind of small to do.

You know, related to that, the well supplying the water into the ADU, how's that, you know, gallons per hour, however it's measured, how is that affected with the ADUs I don't know have we already asked that question it didn't seem to come up as far as the well well size was not an issue or a new well was not an issue it was mostly just the sewer I'm always thinking about that because water Carroll County water you know a lot of dependency on well and septic but code carroll county health department says one gallon in it right but if you're putting another make making numbers up you know you're going to put a 2 000 square foot adu with and the max of two bedrooms or whatever you know there's a calculation that goes to support that structure and if the existing well won't support that is another well required and can a lot have two wells.

And in a commercial with assisted livings, yeah, you know, they do factor all that in, but that's a much larger population.

Right, but I'm just, you know, I'm just thinking for the surrounding, if you're in a neighborhood and things, you know, and somebody else is tapping into the aquifer or the source and all that kind of stuff, I think, I mean maybe it's just a Carroll County thing you know maybe not you know if you're well in septic no but I mean if you're sewer if you're hooked up no but if you're well in septic I think it's a consideration for properties in Carroll County

I always tell a client, you know, wells are subject to the law of mother nature. You could have a big well that yields a lot of gallons per minute and it can go dry. So it's just whatever. Chances are it probably won't, but I had a probably less than one gallon many years ago. Raised two girls who showered, I think, five times a day. We never had any water problems. We had plenty of water.

So we will work to clarify what the impact on how they review for water is. Just really quickly then, the last two things that we still are kind of working to clarify is the question on adequate public facilities and how ADUs might be looked at with respect to our APFO. That will be part of a future discussion. Age-restricted housing, there was a question about whether somebody who's got a unit is as part of a retirement village or something like that could do in ADU. We will get clarification or verification, I think, on this. But our interpretation is that something like a retirement village is a site plan. So the people who live there own their unit. They do not own the land that's part of that. So the ability to do certainly a detached accessory dwelling unit would be problematic from a couple of different angles. Number one, because the definition of accessory dwelling unit that the state has provided specifically talks about a primary single family detached dwelling unit. When you're talking about a site plan, what's the primary dwelling unit? There's not an ability to identify that relative to any other units in that plan, but then there's also the question of the land ownership, because it's really sort of a condo structure there. Attached or interior, I think is another question that we just wanna get some sort of clarification on. Could you build an addition? onto one of those units and put an accessory dwelling unit in there um that's a question i would suspect that that would begin to come into conflict with some of the um covenants and deed restrictions and that kind of thing but we'll want to make sure we have some good clear language on that okay I think I've touched on everything that you had questions about again this was in an email that we shared with you in advance of this meeting that also contained the things that we're about to go through So with that, I'm going to turn it over to Tiffany to start walking through some proposals for what this new ADU section could look like. I do just want to point out before we get into this that Our code already has a fair amount in it that talks about accessory dwelling units. They're allowed in many of our zoning districts and allowed with different provisions. What we've tried to do here is carry over as much of that existing text as possible so that the net effect of any changes that we need to make is not substantially different. But there are some things that we don't address that are required by state legislation. So these are areas that we wanna try to work through with you.

So I'll turn it over to Tiffany. Okay, thank you and good morning. As Daphne said, you've received a copy of this. The proposed text amendment as is would be a completely new section addressing ADUs all in one location. and set up like the rest of the ordinances. We would start potentially with a purpose and intent and applicability. Those right now are both kind of left on the back burner to be filled in later, not addressing those just yet. And we'll come back to those. Then potentially include definitions. and we'll go over a few of those in a moment and then we'd have the general provisions for all adus and then the provisions for adus in specific uh in specific zoning districts if necessary if you wanted to change those up at all and then we would go into the bulk and setback requirements for the adus and then potentially the permitting and approval process and something down the road we'll need to address is the non-conforming lots and structures and how you would like to work on those but we haven't really delved into that just yet we'll get some some guidance on that maybe just i want to let you know that there have been just a couple changes since you saw this just i realized i had deleted a definition and that was the livable right here the livable floor area that is not currently in your copy I'll get to that in a little bit but that is a heated space within a dwelling unit utilized for living sleeping eating and sanitation garages unfinished basement basements storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered as livable for floor area um and then i did move this uh definition from the state the meaning of a dwelling unit i had misplaced and had it under dwelling up here so i moved that down to under dwelling unit because that is the state's meaning for dwelling unit which closely matches ours So, okay, going back up to, we'll start off with section C because section A is the purpose and intent, which we'll get to later down the road, and applicability, again, we're just gonna skip that for today and we'll hit that down the road. definitions um we have changed accessory dwelling unit to uh to a to follow the state's definition of accessory dwelling unit a secondary dwelling unit that is on the same lot parcel or tract as a primary single family detached dwelling unit and not greater than 75 percent of the size of and subordinate in use to the primary single family dwelling unit Accessory dwelling unit includes a structure that is separate from the primary single family detached dwelling unit or attached as an addition to the primary single family detached dwelling unit. I don't know that I said that accurately, but if I read verbatim, I did. but it was a little confusing as it was. And that's why we're looking at the potential. Do we still need the different definitions of attached and detached because they do seem to be potentially included in the definition of an accessory dwelling unit. Yes.

Tiffany, just a clarification on that. The 75% applies to both detached or attached. Correct. Is that correct? Correct. Okay.

It is. and all of these again these definitions are just potentially applicable to accessory dwelling units we won't necessarily be keeping them all in down the road they're just here for reference for now and then the other one here is the dwelling unit the state's definition and our definition do seem pretty closely matched I if you decided down the road to take it verbatim that's fine but otherwise it looks like we would be in compliance with the state's definition of dwelling unit if we just left it as is a single a unit providing complete independent facilities for one or more persons and this state says a single unit providing complete living facilities for at least one individual and then kind of mentions the same things

I do like that residential purposes language

I think you are probably referencing the dwelling. Yeah. Yes, that was my mistake. That was the one where I moved the the single unit providing complete living facilities down to under dwelling unit change.

Sorry.

No, no, that was on me. And then again, livable floor area just kind of added in there.

Who was the largest case?

and then we'll move on to the general provisions for all accessory dwelling units for all of the uh current the current code uh that matched we tried to go ahead and move to it's it's it's covering all of them even though our current code has them separated by zoning districts and adus either as an accessory use or just as themselves they kind of all had some of the same applicable codes to them and owner occupancy was one of those so we just went ahead and moved that up to this area where general provisions would be owner occupancy requirement the property owner must occupy either the principal dwelling unit or the accessory dwelling unit on the property again that is currently the case for all zoning districts for adus limit on number of accessory dwelling units. Again, something that is applicable across all zoning districts currently. Only one accessory dwelling unit attached or detached shall be permitted on a lot. Compliance with building and health regulations, this would be where your sprinklers, well and septic, and I believe there's one other thing on there that would be applicable, would fall under this. The accessory dwelling unit must meet all applicable building construction and Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene and MDE regulations. And then direct exterior access comes from across the board as well. An accessory dwelling unit, accessory dwelling must have direct access from the outside. And just crossed out here that the one stipulation that was a little different, that in one of the jurisdictions it says an attached accessory dwelling unit must have direct access from the outside. Suggesting removing that. to apply to all parking requirements were different in all the districts. They were slightly different about what was allowed or not allowed. But the state kind of preempts that and says that unless if you want additional parking requirements, you're going to need to do a parking study that shows that they are warranted. So we just recommended no additional parking spaces are required for an accessory dwelling unit to comply. the statement of utilities and infrastructures or something to address down the road not at this time things that you might want to ask are like do you want utilities to have to be shared if you have to get new utilities it's more expensive but if they are shared utilities like one electric bill it does kind of ensure that it is a subordinate dwelling unit instead of being two separate dwelling unit or two separate complete addresses and and not subordinate to the primary dwelling unit so something to think about down the road as well as shared driveway situations and other infrastructure that might pertain to that um sewer sewer and uh and water supplies as well uh having their own versus being part of the primary dwelling units and just tying into that. So things to think about down the road and that's for detached mainly. So we're not addressing that just yet because our current code does not. Accessory dwelling units, six accessory dwelling units, subject to homeowners association regulations. This is completely new language. It's not anywhere in our code currently. This was just to address the concerns that we don't want, from what we heard, you don't want this these regulations to preempt homeowners associations guidelines more than is necessary and that the state is regulating really so that language is approval of an accessory dwelling unit under this ordinance does not eliminate or modify any applicable private covenant deed restriction or homeowner association requirement except as otherwise provided under maryland law Issuance of a zoning permit or building permit for an accessory dwelling unit does not constitute verification of compliance with any private covenant or homeowner association restriction.

So on A, on that one. Yes. State says that dwelling units are permissible, and if a homeowner association says our regulations don't permit that, they have to abide by what the state says. But in conformity with their architecture, I guess, and those things.

that would be up to the HOA to yes if that's the regulations and they were to say that okay yeah I think we we wanted to have language in here that recognizes that ad use and HOA regulations have some interaction but because each HOA is unique we can't say what they can and can't regulate when it comes to ADUs because we don't know what's in their individual bylaws. So we're putting the onus on the HOA to make sure that their enforcement of their covenants and that sort of thing is still going to be in compliance with the state law.

I think this is a good thing. This is really good that you did this. I think we need to acknowledge the existence of the HOA and what their responsibilities could or couldn't be. I think this is really good.

And as long as they're not preventing or prohibiting the construction of an ADU, they can still have certain things that they enforce from their covenant standpoint in terms of what that ADU would look like or maybe even where it would be situated, that kind of thing.

So can you go back to where the well septics and I guess public water is there? I understand well in septic we talked about that but public water and sewer is that something they would need to have a separate tap for if they do a separate dwelling?

we will come back with that that's part of the section that we have for the utilities and infrastructure to try to address that it's potentially up to you to make that recommendation and the County Commissioners to ultimately decide if that's a requirement they would want to have or if they want to have it that it is it needs to tie into the existing lines

Would a separate ADU be its own individual mailing address?

Again, that would be one of the things that we would come back for recommendations for down, because if you do have that separate mailing address, and we've heard we might need to talk to Fire and EMS because they designate those, and do they need that? If they need that, it might not be up to you. It might be a requirement that they will have their own address. And then there is a cascading effect from that, that if they have their own address, they can get your own utilities and other things from that as well. So we'll come back with more information on that for sure. And did I answer? Okay, thank you. Okay on number seven we have lot size and distance requirement and this is kind of a hybrid because the there is a distance requirement that we currently have in the ag and conservation on ADUs but that's the only place so this is kind of a hybrid and also includes something like that's an addition to that as well. for your consideration detached accessory dwelling units shall not be located more than 50 feet from the principal dwelling that's what is currently in the ag and conservation district and the additional part could be and shall not be located closer to a principal dwelling on an adjacent lot then the to the primary dwelling on the subject property that was to address uh voiced concerns that it would be right up against your neighbors in this case it would be no closer to the neighbor's dwelling than it would be to your own or the the property owner's primary dwelling unit so that's for conservation that this is for the general uh regulations for all the zoning districts

Okay, so on a small water sewer lot, it may not be, you may not have that whole distance of 50.

So it just can't be more than 50. Okay. So on a smaller lot, it certainly could be smaller than, less than 50. Oh, sorry about that. There you go. Sorry, sorry. Okay.

Any questions or concerns about that one? Got it. That makes sense now. Okay, sorry about that. I didn't see that was covered. Okay, then moving on to number eight. this is the part that addresses the subdivision portion and trying to make it so it cannot be subdivided clear that it could not be subdivided in the future if they do not already have subdivision rights eight an accessory dwelling unit shall remain subordinate and accessory to the primary dwelling unit and shall not constitute a separate lot or parcel Approval of an accessory dwelling unit shall not create additional subdivision, density or development rights. An accessory dwelling unit may not be subdivided, sold or otherwise conveyed separately from the primary dwelling unit unless the property is lawfully subdivided in compliance with all applicable zoning and subdivision regulations. Any concerns or thoughts on that one?

so in the permitting process is that spelled out in the permit itself so there's no question down the road about that how do we put that in well so our zoning administrator would have to sign off on something that is

they're requesting to subdivide off well first of all they're requesting to subdivide something off that'll go through our our development review office but for just a straight building permit I think that would have to be looked at by our zoning administrator as well I don't know I guess it depends on what the permit is but they wouldn't be able to subdivide the accessory dwelling unit without going through subdivision process yeah

So all counties, including Carroll County, have their own addendum. And from time to time, we add and take things away. So maybe once we get this all clarified, we can make sure, and that becomes a part of the contract, sale so we may be able to make sure with some language that that would be in there so a buyer understands when they're buying if future or existing they can't subdivide it

And again, they would be eligible for subdivision if they have subdivision rights. So any parcel that anyone purchased, if they have subdivision rights, they would be able to. But we could certainly.

That's a good idea because I kind of go back to the Ag Pres documentation where a farm is sold and the next owner comes in and said, nobody told me this was under easement. You just say, what? Fire beware. And so that's why we tried to make sure that there was certain protocol in place that if if a property was sold that had an ag easement permanent on that they were notified by the realtor by uh and that's that's that's why i think your suggestion is really proper well you know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink so i know that but um that's that's what bothers me i I don't want to be fooling with our zoning too much. That leads to many many big big things happening.

I do want to point out that in our development and subdivision of land chapter 155. We do have language in there about detached accessory dwelling units that were constructed prior to November 28th, 2000. So long time ago, we have made provision in our code to to allow those detached accessory dwelling units to be, for them to create a separate lot if they were already in existence at that time and they're on properties with no further subdivision or off-conveyance rights. But that's, again, I think a very specific provision meant to address that.

some concerns at the time that that allowance was made That usually winds up at the Board of Zoning Appeals I think that because ADUs while they've been around it's really a hot topic now and more people are wanting to do that to bring mom and dad Can't step, won't leave home. But I think that whatever methods we can use to make sure that the public or the buying public understand that you need to check if you intend to remove that and have a separate lot, you need to check with zoning in some type of language.

All right. This is one that Daphne had alluded to earlier that would bring on potentially a larger discussion, but we'll touch on it real quick. What we're proposing is the, just this is preliminary, just want to put that on there. We're still working on this. The gross floor area of a detached accessory dwelling unit, and this is number nine, shall not exceed 75% of the building footprint of the primary dwelling unit. Just open that for discussion, thoughts. Again, we are still kind of looking into what that would be.

I agree with that I mean if it's an accessory dwelling unit you really can't have it be bigger than what it is an accessory to so because I think also too that's going to be the give an inch and take a mile scenario I think it's going to you know people are going to use that as a workaround Should it say livable footprint

that is one of the suggestions that we were getting as well yeah yeah so that would go back to that livable floor area definition right so it could over all be bigger if you had a garage and everything

Yeah, so the livable floor area would not count things like garages or storage areas, that sort of thing.

Unfinished basements?

No.

Livable? No.

And again, I apologize that it's not in your copy, but it's right here in the in bold.

So it's heated space. So things like a garage wouldn't necessarily be counted.

garages unfinished basements storage or utility spaces and similar areas would not be considered would not be part of that calculation yeah so i think when when i read that i think we're getting all hung up on the four thousand and then you have a three thousand square foot building next to you but when you take that consideration you're not going to have it's not going to be 75 percent It's going to be 75% of the livable space. It's not going to be 75% of the square footage of the house next door.

It could be more.

How's that?

You have the livable space can't be 75%. So if you don't count the others.

Right, that's what I'm saying. If you don't count the other. Right. Which is what this says, right? It's not counting. Right. So yeah, it'll be, I think ultimately winds up being less than 75%.

It depends if you build an ADU with a garage and all that stuff that's not livable so you could wind up with something bigger than what is attached or if an unfinished basement is not livable I think if we put add livable in there

attorney does does that just mean that livable it could be bigger so do we want to leave livable out of it there is always room i will caution you to say there is room for appeal and no matter what we do

There is always wiggle room in everything we do, but that is one angle to look at it that if you do limit it to say livable, it could mean that it's 75% only of the livable space and therefore you could have unlivable space be its own additional square footage.

I'm sorry, I'm not following.

So what they're saying is that if it's, so if we're saying the 75% applies only to living space, that then you could have unlivable space that exceeds 75% because you're only limiting the 75% number to the livable portion.

of the ADU? Okay, no, that's not what we're talking about. So this is the calculation of how you determine 75%, the size of the ADU. And what the suggestion is is that is based on of the livable floor area of the primary dwelling unit. So if that's a 2,000 square foot house, you subtract out the storage areas and things like that, and you're left with, let's say, 1,800 square feet, 75% of 1,800, then, would be the maximum size of your ADU.

And that 75% of the 1,800 square feet would include if you have a garage or a, would it?

as part of the adu yeah part of the 1800s i think that would be argued yeah well as as the as the proposal is written it says the gross floor area of a detached accessory dwelling unit so gross floor area would mean everything everything is being would be calculated on only a portion of the floor area of the primary dwelling unit so you subtract out your walk-in closets and your well is that how the state is defining it in the 75 percent of state So the 75% is undefined by the state. So this is what we're trying to get at here in terms of addressing your concerns about making sure that the size of the ADU remains subordinate to the primary dwelling unit. So how do we get at that? How do we make sure that it's not gonna become whole nother full-blown house on the same property as another one and again this we can this is a work in progress I don't think we'll solve it here today but but these are some of the lines of inquiry that we've kind of started here when will the state define that because that's kind of critical

They've actually, if I may, they've actually given guidance in the frequently, is this model ordinances or frequently, this is the FAQs to, so already kind of provided guidance and said they're not setting it. So if they were to set it.

Up to the county level.

Yeah. They have said they recommend using the square footage of the finished living area above grade. So that would be even different than. what we could and then the one that's actually there as number nine does say building footprint as well so that would be only the footprint not including all of the livable space of the the other floors so all different kinds of ways to be looking at how to calculate that that's why we're still having that discussion if we

put the rules and regulations in our code or potentially do it, we have to run all this by the state for them to approve it? No, we do not. So if there's a, we do not? Do not.

Okay. All right.

So if there's a homeowner that finds that there's some egregious problem that they can't put a three-car garage on their detached accessory dwelling, who do they go to? Do they appeal it through the state then? It's just a question. I mean, I'm trying to look down the road and say, where does this end and who ends it?

So that would be appealed to the Board of Zoning Appeals. It would be whatever the official decision is in the county, you could then appeal that to the Board of Zoning Appeals to say that that's not how the rules should be interpreted. That would be appealable to any decision they make would be appealable to the circuit court and so on and so forth.

Right up the ladder.

Any other thoughts about the size of the ADU and how to calculate that 75%?

Again I go back to a problem that happened in Howard County with a tenant house on an easement property and the tenant house wound up being a mega mansion which just defied all the rules and so that went into a court of law to determine what to do about it. That's something we'd want to try to avoid here. What was the end result? The end result was somebody had to tear a house down but not the new one. That was the end result.

So what we thought we might be able to do with this one, because I think some of it is just a matter of trying to visualize what this could be, we thought we might work up a couple of examples for if you were to calculate 75% based on this or this or this, what would that look like for sort of your average colonial

suburban house what does that look like I guess what we're trying to get out of here and I think I understand some of it and that is what are what are we trying to do as far as building this ADU is it for you know, what purpose? Is it for purpose of providing something for family members? Is it eventually gonna be a rental? Is it gonna be, you know, I think we're trying to find what the real purpose is and then stick with that purpose. And we know that at some point that it won't always be for a relative. Not everybody that builds or buys that next, that house, as it turns, may not have a mother-in-law, a father, a brother, aunt, uncle, you know, grandma. So I think that's kind of what we're trying to do here is to define really what this is about. And if it goes back to this huge moniker of affordable housing, we might as well just say that's what this is for. because we can't just keep determining that only grandma can live there or uncle bob or joe jr we just can't do that it would it would be unfair for us to be unfair for the landowner the homeowner the next buyer the seller so i guess that's what we're trying to define here

Yes, so now we may not be able to define who gets to live in that ADU. That would be very difficult to regulate. But we do have currently, even a requirement that the property must uh the property owner has to live in either the principal dwelling unit or the accessory dwelling unit so whether they build it for uh in-laws then move or pass away or something like that and then they want to rent it out that's okay as long as as the property owner is residing in one of those if somebody wants to purchase a property that has a primary dwelling unit and an adu on it and they that's like an investment property and they're thinking of renting out both of those then that would that would be a problem based on what we what we already have in our code and what we're proposing right now and how do you how do you monitor that lawfully how do you just go up to the knock on the door and say do you rent this place we own it uh what do you want to hear yeah i mean i think people can get a little creative but we do have we do have some uh way to track owner occupancy and and that sort of stuff um

What's the consequence if it happens?

Depending on what code that would be in if it's under 158 or potentially some other sections of code that could be a zoning violation and then they get fines if they don't correct the situation within a certain amount of time I do believe permits mentioned they have the tenant or the the owner sign an affidavit that they are living at one or the other as well

Is there anything in the state that says the owner has to live in one of them?

There is none.

So it's individually up to the county? Correct. Until the state changes their mind.

That's true. Okay, just trying to clarify this a little bit.

Absolutely, yep. So for number nine, we'll come back to you with some examples of what it could look like if you're calculating 75% with different methods.

Okay, moving on to E, zoning district specific regulations. I will start with not the actual zoning districts, however, I will start with the bedroom limit. That is the same in every zoning district that allows ADUs, and that is the accessory dwelling unit shall have no more than two bedrooms. Should we move those up to general regulations, or did you potentially want to make those different in each zoning district? Because right now, since it is the same in each zoning district, we could potentially just move that up to general.

Didn't the state define that as well, two bedrooms? I thought everybody did.

They did not define anything. Well, yeah.

So, yeah. What is the chance of... As they start really going through these ADUs, the state that they start to kind of redefine some of these things, then we have to.

We'll respond based on what?

Yeah.

if there's any refinement to the legislation we'll just respond the same way we do with pretty much everything else right actually have another appointment if i were to shoot out now does that mess anything up with the quorum or anything or i don't believe we're taking any action today so we okay i just didn't want to mess anything up no thank you yeah this is just discussion i just wanted just wanted to make sure it wasn't

adjournment we don't have a court We should be OK. I just want to make sure. Yeah.

Yeah.

As long as we take no other actions today that involve a roll call vote.

OK. Yeah. No, I think we're getting general feedback from the Planning Commission. We'll bring this revised to you again at the next meeting.

Yeah. And when we adjourn. We don't need a roll call to adjourn, do we?

No, that's exactly.

If you do, I'll see you all in a couple weeks.

That was the discussion.

I'll give you my cell phone number. Just call me.

If we do by voice vote, we're okay. If we have to have a roll call vote, we have a problem now. All right.

Sorry about that, everybody.

No worries.

Have a wonderful following weekend.

Thank you. You too. You too.

Okay. Any objections to keeping that two-bedroom limit in? We'll go ahead and move that up to general rules then, regulations. Okay, lot size and distance requirement for ag and conservation. It also, along with the, as mentioned earlier, that it has the 50, may not be located more than 50 feet from the principal dwelling. It also includes, shall be located on lots of at least three acres in size. we could leave that in or we could remove it that is almost the size that will be required if a detached is added on ag or conservation because it will be on a well and septic and they're going to need that additional septic and septic field so that would be regulated through the health department instead of through this if you chose And you cannot, so I will say this too, that could possibly be a regulation that would prevent somebody from creating their ADU and that would be, again, that would not be in compliance with the state legislation. So are you okay with us removing that portion completely, those regulations? Yes, okay. And then height regulations in AG are currently, I know it says there, it's a maximum height of 35 feet in conservation, and in AG, 35 feet. However, the ADU height has been restricted specifically, and that is to 25 feet in AG and conservation. Would you want to leave that as is for now or come back to the bulk requirements on that? Again, when we come back with sizes of different sizes, maybe that would also help when looking at that.

I think it would.

Okay.

What's the average two-story?

I looked it up the other day. I think it was 20 feet. That is not including roof, and I don't know.

Yeah, usually a story is about 10 feet because you've got the space between the floors and stuff like that. Roundabout.

And it also depends on the grade too, because if you've got a basement under it and the backside is a walkout, it could be deemed to be higher.

And we'll say like, I mean, we'll come back with examples, but over a garage, if it's the same height and then it's up the house, that would be like, yeah, we'll come back.

Builders have nine and 10 feet floors now before. So yeah, 20 cabs is probably reasonable.

Yeah, that's reasonable.

to uh and that was i'm sorry that was uh no so this is just specific to ag and conservation detached accessory dwelling unit no i apologize i'm gonna that must have been conservation okay sorry the first portion would have been ag and the second portion would have been conservation is what i'm assuming there so we kind of touched on all that uh we'll go down to residential districts attached dwelling accessory dwelling units are subject to a maximum size. We will be removing that portion because it has to be the state's definition of the 75%. And we'll come back with visualizations for that. And then the bedroom limit, we'll go ahead and move up to general regulations. Detached accessory dwelling units are subject to the following. and that includes that there must be subdivision rights to allow for a detached accessory dwelling unit and we must remove that now as well to be in compliance with the state law. And then heritage, there's nothing specifically in our existing code right now addressing ADUs in the heritage district. C1, C2, C3, industrial districts and the employment campus district have accessory uses. They have non-conforming uses that would address residential use. dwellings in those we're not going to cover that just yet that gets a little tricky and tentacly you know getting into stuff so we'll come back to to the implications of that with non-conforming dwelling units currently and how that affects accessory dwelling units so we'll get into the bulk requirements next uh i Again, we cannot mess with side and rear setbacks. Those are set for each zoning district as is. Flexibility is in front yard setbacks and they have not set any height restrictions. We could come back with visualizations for this as well, I guess. Or do you have any thoughts on front yard setbacks, how to regulate that? Anything you'd like us to keep in mind with height regulations?

So Tiffany, if you could maybe scroll down to the table, we could get a sense of.

I don't think I have anything with the residential in that table. Yeah, I didn't add anything else to that yet.

So the table here, it's been adequate for what we have. This is not a new table. This is a table based on.

This is existing.

I don't see any reason to change that.

The question I guess would be in front yardage, would you want to remain the same?

I think a lot of site plans will dictate. A lot of communities have staggered. You can't build in front of here. And usually that's, if it's well and septic, it's dependent on where the septics are.

I wouldn't change it right now.

Would you say the same for the current, the other zoning districts as well, remain the same?

I think so.

And then I guess I would come back to that question of heights being slightly different in ag and conservation than it currently is in the general height regulations. Would you want to remain the same, like make them consistent so that ADUs are consistent with the general heights in the ag and conservation as well?

I would look for consistency.

then um since all of the bulk requirements are as they currently are in the districts did you want us to run through that or are you good with keeping them the same right now i just no no adjustments to them or did you want us to run through them real quick i think we should just until we know more about all this i think we should keep it the same

I think detached or the ACUs, ADUs, you can tell it's getting late, are going to be hard to be in half acre or 10,000 or 7,500 for detached ones. You're just not going to meet the requirements too much.

All right. I think that's all we have right now for ADUs.

Yes. So I think what we'll do between now and the next meeting work on kind of cleaning this up a little bit come back to you with we have a couple of things that I think we want to dig into for further discussion so that includes this question of utilities and infrastructure what we would require people to do in terms of hooking into utilities providing other kinds of infrastructure whether it's separate we'll come back to you with a couple of visual examples for how to work through that 75%. And we will come back with a discussion on height, maybe. right now we have it as trying to align it so is the same throughout all of the zoning districts but we'll take a stab at that and see what you think everything else I think you we got a lot of head nods on what we've proposed so far so we'll try to clean up what we just shared and

come back with something that you can kind of look at as a whole as a proposed new ADU section and we'll continue the discussion I think it was really smart that you got all the players involved in drafting what you drafted and it's a great baseline great baseline to start from And like we've been saying, we'll wait to see what the state comes out with. I'm sure they'll come up with something.

Well, like I said at the outset, we already have a fair amount of language related to ADUs. So Tiffany's just been trying to pull that all together in one place and then find where the mismatches or misalignments are. then roll in some of your specific concerns but I think we're I think we're headed in a good direction I think so I agree we need to take public comment any public comment all right seeing none hearing none

Oh, you need a motion. I need a motion for item number 14.

I make a motion to adjourn. Second.

All in favor? Aye. We're adjourned.