Planning Board - Regular Meeting

So, if people uh sign into the Zoom, uh are they required to identify themselves? That's a good question. Um because there was someone there last week and I asked them to identify themselves and they didn't say who they were and so I have no idea who Yeah, I noticed in the in the meetings minutes. Uh do they have to or I mean I'm sure it's good practice just so we know who's who's there, but It is a public meeting, right? Yeah, it is. Anybody? So, anybody can Yeah. Okay.

Do you know where you showed me the other day, the last meeting, the list of who's doing what on page? Is it in the Google Drive? It is. It is. What's it under? I'm in here. It's not in a folder. It's go down towards the bottom. Okay. See, I might not be getting in. Okay. So, I'm going to have to download Get Drive downloaded, right? Um, what I did was I clicked on the link from email. That's what I did. And then it said I didn't have access. So, I said, "Give me access." And then somebody gave me access and then I was it.

Okay. Cuz see, here's the Okay, there's the That's the That's what I did. Google Drive. Yeah. And okay, I'm in. So, but uh January supp plan now. Scroll down. Oh, okay. See submission state submission. Keep logging. There you go. That one.

Thank you. I just need to get to a little further. Okay. That's the only way I can get in. I can't I don't have it up on my bookmark it. Star no. Okay. There you go. Did that bookmark it? So, we are live streaming. Our owl is on, but I don't know. Does it need to be turned or something?

It turns by itself. Google's talking. I'm not sure why. There it is. Um, what's this? Wait. And I always use a mouse. I have a hard time using that. So now you're good. So now you go over here when you want to find it. There it is. Right there. There it is. Y Oh, but it says Canton comp. Okay. Canton comp plan. So I want the whole Google Docs stuff. Is that just the comp plan?

So there's two folders that'll take you into the folder. Okay. There's the comp plan, the working folder that's different color. Yeah. That's got all the working documents. The other one has the current existing plan. Okay. I'll figure it out. It will take you to this page. Right. when you click on that. Yeah. Okay. So down here, I believe you are vice chair. Yeah. So should be already

call the meeting to order 603. Oops. public and attendant. There's nobody on the Zoom meeting, right? See if there's anybody else. Oh, it does say one watching. That's the one. That's the Thomas. No description. field.

Um, you should have by the January 7th meeting minutes to accept or is there second?

Yeah. I put that note on um to ask Erin just on the first of every month stick the permit log in the planetary mailbox so that we have it for our meetings. Um and I'm not sure I I mentioned to Kathy I'm not sure that he's getting any of my emails because I never ever get a response from him. So I don't know if it's somehow they're not coming through or um I don't know but this went directly to him hopefully email. So, we'll see if we can get the funds done. And what is it you're asking for? Any permanent laws? Any permanent law changes? Well, just any uh if he just once a month, first month, makes a copy of it, sticks it in the box, that'd be great. We can review it every month.

Okay. Is there is there a document that comes in monthly for that then? Well, he every time somebody applies for a permit. Oh, permit. Got it. We filled it out. And I think it came up over a year ago because people would ask us, "Hey, do you know what's going on with on such and such street?" and we're like, "No, we have no idea what's going on." No idea what because we don't see the permit applications unless it's shorland zoning or there's variance that's needed or So, he handles the permits and he actually puts them into a log. Yeah. Yeah. We've looked at it a couple times, right? Right. Yeah. Like twice, I think. Yeah. So, it' be nice. I mean, that's like a regular thing we're supposed to do, right? Is keep up with that.

Yeah. So before we go to the work plan, um I did email out this week several um ordinances that we said we're going to finalize. So you should have them all in your notes. Um students um I reviewed that um cemetery document.

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of potential things you could push into either from there. But that was a lot of regulation of do we need all of that? Because as I was reading through it, I'm like, well, this is really detailed and well organized, but you know, I'm not sure that we need all of that. There's no ordinance. Did Robin say? Okay. So, I know she couldn't make it this week. We need to ask her, I think next week, if there's something, you know, specific in that other document that she's looking for in this one. I don't know if you guys got a chance to read through it. It was really long.

Cemetery or Yeah.

Well, so I took I read through it and I took one one or two things out of it. You know, glosseries are nice and I don't know that was just mine. So, here's if you you might want to all move to the other side of the table so you can see the screen. All right.

Like sitting in the front row. Yeah. So at Tom June there was a push back on two parts of the one they didn't think it was clear enough that when we did find a kind of vehicle that cannot be in the center. They don't want snowmobiles, they don't want ATVs. So that uh at that point we also discuss it's always been these seven sex is a three-year term. Um but they changed it to one year term because I think the person who's doing it may or may not want to continue. And so if you just keep him on a one-year basis, he was happier to do that than term. So we change the sex term from 3 to one house. Um the prohibited activities um some people said you know they do have picnics in there sometimes but they go

well some some people's religious background is is really weird concerning how the they celebrate the dead. It's really odd like in the Philippines they throw a party on your gravestone. It's really weird.

We may have had time because she would have. So anyway, we took out picnics are okay. Play sports activities and gatherings not in keeping with the purpose and dignity of December 3rd are prohibited. That's a little bit loose, but people kind of get the idea. uh the riding of motorized recreational vehicles of any sort including but not limited to snowmobiles and all touring vehicles would not be allowed within any town cemetery without the permission of the cemetery. So, if for some reason, maybe somebody who passed away was a big member of the ATV club and they want to have a ceremonial ATV parade to his plot. If a sex says it's okay, they can do it.

But otherwise, they don't want you having horse play and I don't know. I mean, they're they're doing wheelies and that kind of stuff. Yeah. Right. So, snowmobiles and ATVs are the two key things that are permitted. If somebody's happens to be attending a funeral there and they riding on a motorcycle, that's fine. If you ride your bicycle, that's fine, too. Yeah. So that other Okay. So it says shall not be allowed within. So vehicles of any sort incl but not limited to snowmobiles and alter vehicles. Oh, so they're not allowing them either. That's the only two things are not allowed, right? snowmobiles and ATVs are not allowed unless the sex incident.

Oh, and I I notic there was a little kickback about the no glass bottled or like or alcohol because some people do like to leave a beer on the gravestone or or pour some beer on the on the grave. Yeah, I think if you pour the beer and leave that's one thing, but leaving the bottle there is what this was. Oh, no glass bottles and alcoholic beverages. Oh, it does say no booze. Right. Right. That's his town hall. Oh, shall be not be placed on the monuments engraved. Glass bottles may have comprehension shre ordinance, right? You're not allowed to go to the ball field and have fun. Right.

So, I think you have to say that. Now, yeah. If people do a six-pack salute to somebody at their funeral, is anybody gonna right? I suppose it's probably up to the second, you know, be a nice be good idea to ask. Anyways, so we I did clarify this whole section did come from the water. Yeah. Ordinance. Yeah.

Right. Um payment and soul is required before any burial is permitted. like I thought probably a good thing. We don't explicitly laid out but it is now. Um just so was new this right of interment that basically says you know the purchaser that own the right of interment they don't own the actual land right you have the right to be buried there right you don't own the land per se um just the right to use it see 41 or more specific sites sub to policy blah blah blah inheritance which I thought was an interesting piece that if somebody dies um and they're not choosing to be buried there for whatever reason, who gets the right to that plot? So, you can will your pot that you've already paid for, if you pay in advance to somebody else, but you have to show that you have the right to that. I did think this was also important. the town has no obligation to repurchase the right of interment. So if I bought a lot and I end up not using it,

we don't need to buy it back. The town does not have to buy it back. So those seem like really interesting things that we hadn't considered should be there. Um the numbering changed as a result of that. Yeah. After the town meeting, we took out what used to be section 11 elevated memorial.

Yeah. There was some the what we call the cemetery ladies who were the group that got started cleaning up all the cemeteries in town before the bsentennial right every spring they get a work group from the high school here and they've taken classes on how to properly clean them how to raise up the ones that are falling over blah blah blah they originally suggested that um because of these pedestals get tipped over they start to sink into the ground then they tip over u they didn't want any elevated memorials but then the question was how do you define an elevated memorial memorial, right? Because there's there's stones that are sometimes elevated and you can have a pedestal with like a bird bath on the top of it or whatever, you know, and so we at time meeting the discussion was let's just take that section out.

Y um I think those were the big changes that came from either the town meeting or Robin. That's not a water. Now I can send this back to the draft here and say, "Hey, these are the sections we added based on the Waterford example. Were there any others that you specifically want to consider and see if we get an answer that we also should have in the reality planning board ordinance So this revision um we worked on be over the summer really and then a lot of it kind of the audience Oops.

I got it. Oh,

yeah. Make this a little easier. So, planning board members should be elected by both the people. So, now that changed elections number of board members, we added the words and one alternate there. Um to be clarified in the vacancy section once a vacancy occurs and a vacancy is either uh somebody resigns for whatever reason or we boot them up for nonattendance or nonparticipation uh once at the next available meeting the alternate call to disservice for the balance of the term of that planning board member who is vacated. Isn't the first part of that supposed to be at the next available planning board meeting?

Planning board says so. Uh that's a good question. Does the select board have to Oops. have to officially Yeah. assign them that role. Yeah. Oh, really? It does. Where at the select board meeting? Okay. That's what it says. Before you can serve on the plane. So, I think the select board has to basically appoint them. There's your moving up to the official seats and because it's being done outside of voting, right? So, but weren't we all sworn in? Yep. Mhm. We had

I went to a select board meeting and they asked me a couple questions and they appointed me and I was sworn in there. Diane sworn me in. Yep. Kathy Kathy. Yeah. So my my brain's going. Uh so you have to be sworn in again.

Well, I think you have to be officially you have to officially change your role now. We could leave it. We could put the planning board. I don't know. And say if you're already an alternate, you're already sworn in. Does the planning board just say welcome to the kids table? I don't think you have to be sworn in again. I think Okay. Because that's just a little confusing. Yeah. Okay. And then within 60 days following the occurrence of the vacancy on the planning board and call the service of the alternate to become a fullbar member, the municipal officers who were the select board, right? Shall appoint a new alter. So they're going to back fill that spot. Yep. Okay. Catch.

Such an unusual sound to hear around here. Always. Can you hear them from your house? because we can hear it from our house. You can hear in Can you help? I can hear them. Yeah. I mean, one day we had I had two volunteers at my house helping some young men helping with a project and they were listening. They're like, "Oh, that's just such such such and all." Oh, yeah. Everything. They're like, "That's me." And then I paid off. So,

so this is how you get a vacancy, right? Resignation, death. We're going to keep you till you die. Um, if you seem to be a registered voter of the town, you're no longer a resident, or you miss four consecutive regular meetings without a pre-approved absence, feel free to attend 75%. So once we get the vacancy um you know we advise the municipal officers, hey so and so is going to leave the board either by their choice or if we say we're asking them to leave whatever reason. Um, we may say, "Hey, this person should be removed based on the regulations here, but we're going to advise that they stay because we think there's an exception." So, but we have to put that in right into the

seing board and the select board. No. Yeah. So, none of these are new, right? No, these are all the same. Exact same. Change same. Yeah. So, nothing else changed. change anything to change. Uh we did add that here if any member board is asking for a regular schedule meeting ultimately take the open seat in order to maximize efficient business

put in that compensation piece because I think it wasn't clear to the town office does this person actually get paid or not like yes oh yeah compensation yeah that's only Yeah. So duties and powers it's really planning board use of comprehensive plan committee shall oversee the preparation updating and maintenance of comprehensive strategic plans which is really the thing as may be required by statute laws. You prepare and recommend officers or amendments there too blah blah blah

I think and also If I may be required to encourage of municipalities by any comprehensive strategic plan. I think we we shifted the wording there just a tiny bit because sometimes it was called a municipal land use plan. I think it's bigger than just land use, right?

Uh and because I think we talked about wanting that comprehensive plan to be an actual working document that guides actions, not just something that sits on the shelf. No, it's going to be really pretty on the shelf at all. Uh so we can we have our own budget. We spent a budget on our stuff which I think I talked to you guys too. Uh somebody was offering a grant writing updating grant writing course. I thought I'm going to sign up for that. Yeah. That's really interesting. If I do it on Zoom, you want to do my house.

Oh yeah. Yeah. When is that? have it on my email. So, I don't see it on my calendar. Was it did any municipal run that I you find that let me know. Yeah,

I'm interested in I mean I don't need to have you know I think they'll only give you one certification document that's fine the training itself right I don't grant writing seminar yeah when is that um it is $65 we have that in we have that in the budget are you Okay. Oh, a date on there. Is the date on here? Nope. There it is. When is the date?

So, it's $65. So, you would Yeah. So, you signed up for it, right? Mhm. So, if we come, we don't have to They don't have to pay for us, do they? Well, do they? No, we'll just if it's all if it's online. Watch it. Yeah, on the Zoom. If it's online. Yeah, just let me know the date. Yeah, I went to that.

Cuz the next step is let's go get money, right? Yeah. Yes. Once you get the actual plans, wait, what do you want to do? Yeah. And it's figured out what made those sense. So, one of the things that the lawyer previously asked us to do in our ordinances is it's put in the the original date if we have it any revisions.

Yeah, I see that. So, if we're okay with this, uh, I'll send this copy of the notes plus the cleaned up copy to still one more check for that cemeter. Do they get to see all the changes as well or just the No, they get two copies. They get one with all the changes identified and then one that's clean. Yeah. Good. Okay.

Um back the Oh, you guys all saw the note that was a response. Yeah, I got it right here. Sure did. Um do you have any changes to that note? Yeah, here we go. I think I've already read.

Yeah, everything on that note was cancer. I just want to make sure that everybody's okay with that response. I do have two things on the solarance. Um, one is I looked at solo ordinances from three other towns. They don't have any appeals language at all in theirs because you're not required to have an an avenue for appeal to anybody. You don't have to give them an avenue to appeal. Um, the way our solo ordinance is written, it basically says the planning board can choose to grant some kind of variance or not. somebody wants something that's slightly out of the norm or if there the question of the andor we could have made a decision voted on that and passed it on. Uh it didn't have to go to the appeals board but I think because that is in some of our ordinances everybody was like it's a variance it has to go to the appeals board. Nobody really looked. So it was a knee-jerk reaction all the way along the line. Right? So we sent it to the select board. They're like oh we have to have the appeals board. Like nobody had read we all wrote the ordinance. all of us, the select board included, but I think we didn't think that that wasn't in there because it's not in the other ones and it's not required to be in there. Now, we took the language from the um uh we took the the language from a different ordinance and put it in there. They did. Yeah. So, we have Yeah,

they're rethinking it. Well, make sure that we're okay that we I don't know that we have to have it in there. And I think the attorney was right. The appeals board has no jurisdiction because there was not an appeal. So, okay, that's that's exactly the reason why I don't think it should be in there. It's because it went to all that effort. The town spent I don't know if you ever got the amount or not, but money to have that lawyer come and just say they have no right to do anything. So, what was the purpose of that? So, why even have it in there? because it didn't do any good anyway. Well, it wasn't in there. That's the point. Huh. It wasn't in there. But I don't think we we're proposing to add it, but now we're taking My vote would be no. Just leave it the way it is.

Huh. Yeah. Because because the select board are the ones that went ahead and set up that meeting for the appeals board. Got the appeals board together. And then the lawyer comes and has his letter already written and says, "Oh, they have no right to do anything." So, what was the point of that? I mean, to me, that could have been communicated before they called the board and said meetings.

Well, yeah, because they I didn't He didn't sit there for nothing. And um I don't know. I We can take a vote on it. Um I vote no. It it doesn't make any sense to have an appeal in there when you don't have an appeal board. Well, not only that, the appeal board has no right to do anything. So, why would they be able to override a planning board decision? It's a security argument, right? If there is a language in there that gives um somebody an applicant who wants a variance who says I think something's wrong with your ordinance or blah blah blah or usually it's when they believe that a decision of the planning board or the code enforcement officer was not correct.

Well, see the code enforcement officer is a different thing. You can't appeal that. Well, you can there's not an appeal section in your ordinance for the for the code enforcement officer. Nope. Not unless you have that that paragraph directly written into your ordinance. Right? So at this point it would be the planning board makes a decision based on all the information that you have and then we make we recommend pass or fail on the application and we send it to the select board for a final approval. Now they can still unless they're given specific rights to stop it they could stop it. But but even so, I mean all all these meetings are public. They can just come in say, "Hey, this this is my problem. Can we work something out?"

Can you explain that to me? Explain that again about the code enforcement officer how that would affect. It shouldn't. The code enforcement officer isn't part of this ordinance. It's planning board, right? Solar applications would come to the planning board, not the Well, the court enforcement officer has to sign off on a solar application as well. Well, they have to get an application. Okay. So, they're part of the checklist. They are. Got it. So, let me just find it where it is language if it is written. Well, the planning board wouldn't pass it if the voting enforcement officer had an objection anyway, right?

I wouldn't think so. Why would we need an appeals process?

So, here is my favorite word. Check it out. So, I know. So, here's the October 25th proposal revision. This is the one that we were looking at last fall. Uh so nothing changed here except it made but still making is marked up as a change.

We were getting rid of the andor to make it very clear that it was and then we were going to add an appeals process right which we did but now we're thinking maybe we just junk that and that's just the and

change. I think it's worth having a conversation. So, here's the change of mark on this. when I made it bigger doesn't p it doesn't page correctly now

I mean after we approve an application it still has to go through the select board right has to go back to the select board which we sent them this already once right and that's why they sent that note right and the note said several things right it said where did the appeals language come from in this revised ordinance why are you even working on this when you have all these other things you need to be doing, right? Um, and I don't say this, but anyway though, those are the answers. Yeah. So, I think I think there was a concern about advancing this while the Tanelo application was still in the works. However, there's no none of the changes proposed in this ordinance made any difference affect their application.

Right. Right. And we made sure of that before we made any changes. Correct. Yeah. I'm trying to get back up to the end because I was right. I think this language you know that we're talking about it this appeals sets up a potential back and forth and back and forth. Yeah. What we have and you know I don't I don't understand why we need it. looking for approved application requirements.

Okay. So, here here are the changes. We took out the application fee schedule all together. Yeah. And said uh see um a I'm going to say it again. A town fee scheduled approved by the because the town's attorney changed that language in the in one of the other ordinances because he said if you say the town fee schedule will in big letters you need to have a definition in here of what the town fee schedule is. Okay. Or if you just say is made apparent on a fee schedule approved by the town. Yep.

It's fine. you know it's fine with so I will make sure I'll change that language trying to get it to with page so I think it's in yeah so it's back here in the definition right here we on page two we change the end or right the definition of a large scale is uh 6 to 30 acres and generates a name plate capacity from 1 megawatt to 5 megawatt. Okay.

Uh medium scale is from a half an acre to 6 acres and generates a name plate capacity up to but not including 1 megawatt. And then here we say mega name plate capacity is rated in DC. And we can put DC into the definitions as well, just so it's clear. That's a question mark.

You mean the conversion from um what one megawatt is is in DC versus and to five megawatts what it is in DC? Is that what you're saying? it. Well, right here it says megawatt and then further down it says name plate capacity is rated in DC right so I'm saying are you saying to put in there I just put went to to 5 megawatt DC just put the letters DC after it so they know that that capacity is in DC okay I think that's that makes it more uniform

so that's andor we took out the feast schedule referred that back to just a any fee schedule in the townhouse. Um, and we added this language about the board. So, I think we have several options. One is take out appeals language altogether. Number one. Number two is clarify the appeals language. And there was in the uh might have been in the cemetery ordinance draft had I thought a clearer appeal than I would.

So this is saying you put in a field to give somebody a chance to have a second trial. Right? If some if we say it doesn't pass for this reason, whatever reason, um either we're the end of the of the story. Yeah. Right. Doesn't pass because the plain board reviewed it, the code enforcement officer reviewed it. Together we agree it doesn't pass. Like you're done. We we tell you what you have to change. You can come back and make those changes. Um

I don't see anything. You can stop there or you could give that person an option to have an um usually says something like uh to consider an alleged error in procedure by the planning board enforcement officer of the administration or enforcement of this orient. So, if somebody believes that we didn't review it correctly and we we chose some measure that they don't agree with, that isn't in the ordinance or whatever, if they think there's something we did wrong, they can appeal that.

And now, I thought if you had appeal verbiage in there, they can appeal it to a court of law. Well, you have you have to tell them, but the appeals language tells you how far you can go. Right.

Right. So, this says um you have It says you have a board of appeals. The board of appeals can only consider alleged errors by the planning board of the code enforcement officer or which is administrative appeal or if there's a variance appeal to consider if in cases a relaxation of the terms of this ordinance would be contrary to the public interest or intent of the ordinance or if owing to the unique conditions of the property not due to the result of the actions of the applicant. Liberal enforcement would cause undue caution. Now, undue powership in some of our other ordinances is incredibly hard to prove. Yeah.

Now, in the uh one other ordinance I was looking at, it might have been a cemetery ordinance, it basically says, "Hey, if the cost to change whatever it is they're doing is going to cost them more than 15% of the cost of the project, that would be hardship. So, that would justify a second look appeal. It's going to cost them more than 15%. Um other ordinances don't have that at all. If undue hardship can be you have to then define what is hardship right and it can be we have a couple ordinances for which hardship is very big. Uh it's still probably revisions here. I think there was a definition that said hardship is

uh the crucial point of variance appeals are undue hardship and unique statuses applying to the property. Both of these elements must be present to grant a variance. So if they say, "Well, I don't want to I don't want to do what you're asking me to do in the ordinance because it's going to exorbitantly cost me some x amount of money." That's not enough. There also has to be other reasons why you can't do that. And I don't know what that I don't have no idea what that would be in this case. Or we take the variance appeal section and just allow administrative opinions. You agree?

The question I still have, if you have this in the ordinance, then does the appeals board have the ability to say nay or yay? Yes. They didn't have the ability because it wasn't in the ordinance. Is that what I'm understanding? Correct. Previously. So, it should have never been appealed before. Should have never gone to the board. Right. But if this is in there, then it can go to the appeals board and they do have a right to say something. Okay, that's the difference. Um, this language is in some of our other ordinances. Uh, the filing procedure and hearing. Yeah.

Yeah. So, if I have a concern, I can file for an appeal within 30 days. uh appeals. Who's I in this? Who can a person agreed by the decision of the planning board or the code enforcement office? So you mean a a citizen an applicant? So this is in the solar. So somebody's applying for solar they can apply for the appeals board. Oh yes. Okay. Got it. And they have a time period like 30 days from the time let's say the planning board says you don't get a permit to appeal. So, if they don't appeal in 30 days, they're done.

They're done. Now, on a separate ordinance, we had a woman who during COVID ran into some problem on a building permit. Um, and at the end of the day, she got all the materials together, but it was way after the 30-day whatever the thing was. And I said, I think with CO, you have a really reasonable case. Yeah. To file for an appeal. And yeah. Well, you know, administrative appeal, it's not anybody's fault, not your fault that your contractor couldn't get back to you fast enough because some crap was going on. I think that would justify Yeah. secondary.

Yeah. you know, but um let me go back for a few seconds to the uh do I have the the uh ordinance from cemetery. The other one from the other towns I do that has some pretty decent language in it. A lot of chef on my music. Oh no, maybe this did that one. Never mind. There is no that one did that one. And a number of our town ordinances don't have them, but housing and minimum lot size does. There's always some question about you building your house too close to the or

whatever else. Um Shiron and zoning I think has one. Mhm. But a bunch of other words have no appeal to them.

So I mean we could look at language in another ordinance and see if there's something that's a little clearer. There was one I saw this week that defined hardship Melissa singly. I can't remember which one it was. I'll have to go I can send that in a separate email this week to say hey if we want to keep it in and we want to say you can only appeal for um administrative appeal or a variance appeal and a variance appeal can only be granted based on hardship. Here's the definition of hardship. I I know if I if I can find it during the course of a meeting, I'll get it up. But otherwise, I'll send it free.

I don't think anybody will care if we wait in their meeting cycle to send them. So, they don't don't believe they want it now. They're not banging on the door, Phil. No. Um, but see, these are the subtleties. Everybody thinks it's super easy to write an ordinance and there's a lot of subtleties involved.

What is the benefit in the solo ordinance or any ordinance? I mean the appeal the appeal I'm a little confused because the appeal was done on this through the select board. It wasn't done done through the company that was putting in the solar. Yes, it was. It was done that way. Yeah, they they sent a document asking for variance because of the whole andor scene. Okay. The variance. Okay. So, that opened it up to the appeals board.

Well, that opened it up. I think what that happened is the planning board had the jurisdiction to make a decision on that and just say yes or no and move it on to the next and there was a there was a difference of opinion on that. Well, I think we jumped also. Yeah, just like everybody else, we kind of said, "Oh my god, he's ask any he's asking for variance. Variance is going to score." But so it was just an automatic thing without us looking. There's not any harm of having it in there. It's kind of a safety net in my understanding. For the for the applicant. Yeah. In that respect, I'd say okay because I mean what's it hurting? But the applicant is the one that has to put in for an appeal.

Right. Okay. So, right. Yeah. So, them. Yes. Accept what direction they were given, right? Then you you don't pass for these reasons. Um if they feel that they should have passed for some reason, right, they can then come back and ask whatever. Okay. and they feel that uh in order to make it compliant um it would be a hard hardship on them and it just isn't I'd be interested to hear the other definition of hardship.

Yeah, I decided to take out the variance appeal and just leave administrative appeal. That's where my head's going right now because this seems so gray to me. Um, but if there's something that you feel, well, if we take out the wording is a little more clear about what hardship means, especially in the case of this. Um, and yeah, let's look at that and then we can talk about it at the next meeting. Okay. Happy to send you. Thank you.

I know I've seen it my best this weekend. I'm like, "Oh, and I can't recall exactly." They reviewed the stores from three other towns as well, and they did not have any appeal board language at all in their verses. No, Patrick failed. So, I'm like, are there authorized area? So, is it hardship for land use? Area capacity. What would that mean? Oh, come on.

Well, because our ordinance gives them it has a area requirement. You only need five acres, right? Or less, right? So, if they say based on the line of land or there's a boulder over here and we have to, you know, work, you know, around this boulder. So, our biggest our footprint is going to be 5.2 acres or whatever. Okay. Um, who do we grant in that variance based on that?

Thank you. I was just looking for examples. Well, I was too. I mean, I I got zoning hardship hardship and hardship and permits. Would that be under there? I do hardship in unique circumstances and they both have to be there in order to grant the variance. Okay? Because you don't want people to say, "Where's a boulder? It's going to cost a lot of money to move this boulder. So, it's really 5.2 acres. That's why we're asking for the variance

because it'll cost so much money to move this immovable rock. We'll have to bring somebody in here to blow it up like that. Yeah. In that case, I would argue that you're not actually putting silver right on top of the rock, right? The actual area of coverage around the rock shouldn't be Yeah. any bigger than draw a hole some rope and stick it in the middle. I'm just taking your example.

But see, these are the kind of things that I think the planning board should have should be debating and talking about and saying yay or nay. Yeah. you know, do we really need to go to appeals board then to rethink what the planning board's already been on? I don't know. Do you think we that the planning board did something right? They're, you know, going through your documents. That's one thing. But, okay, we're putting it aside till the next meeting to discuss hardship.

We'll talk about hardship. uh housing. I did not send you guys 99.9% there, but I'll send that out this week. So let's get over to the confidence. Yeah. I think I meant to be left. So last week's select board meeting I did like copy of this plan out. I didn't go through and fill in like hey this chapter is 50% complete. This chap is 80%. And they just like oh a lot of work to do. Like they didn't.

Yeah I saw that. So, I don't think they were really asking about that, but um next Monday is our working plan. I saw because it is a state holiday. So, that um our outside people, farmland trust, uh they're working with maps people, habitat people, and Erica Buck and Matog, that's a case contained for them. They're not in the office. She did say, "Hey, we could sign it at I think 5:00 for like half an hour and talk to you guys on that day on the phone, but we can't be there in person." Like, "Okay, thank you for the half hour we get through." Yeah.

And they've got a Zoom link for that. I'm assuming we'll be here in the meeting room doing stuff on the board or whatever we can do. But, um, it turns into bad days. We have it as um we can double check with Erica on Monday her timing on the transportation chapter updates. Um Greg sent some information uh on the that chapter which I'll have to look at again before Monday. Farmland Trust sent a bunch of resources. I have not gone through all those but that's something we could do together on Mondays and look at those resources they provide on the state and start to actually draw those in. Um housing I'll try to have housing done before Monday and population demographics. Those two things go together. Um I could try I think I can have those done by Monday for a draft.

I'll get the 25 information if I can on mine by Monday. Now the town office I think is closed because that's a holiday on Monday. So they won't be here for Monday. Okay. I mean Okay. No, the 24th should be online cuz I think we went through the 23rd because the 24th wasn't available for the information for this. Um yeah, it only goes through the 20 2000 to 23 on parts of them. Yeah,

I did talk to Rob Marshall from historical society.

Uh and he sent me stuff today. Um during the bsentennial, we had there's a big presentation that went on a big tent down by the ball field. Yeah,

where they had 30 kind of historic artifacts from the town that really told a lot about the town's history, how we broke off from Jay. They a copy of that original petition to the state may state legislator. This legislator set us up as a separate town. Uh there's something in there. There's an like a violin from the famous violin maker that used to be here. Somebody came from the mill, right? They had representation of all these really key interesting points on the town's history. um today you sent me the link to the transcript for that presentation that's got pictures of those artic those individual items plus a little like paragraph on each of those things on the history. So I'm taking that out of their format trying to put that into our format so that we can see how much really we want to say about it. But I think it's probably worth

it's very interesting having a few pages in there that yeah tell about the history of town. Oh I think it's a great idea. Yeah.

I mean I asked him like hey could you help me write this? He's like, "Yeah, here's the link to the presentation." It's basically that I'm like, "Okay." But it's not formatted in a way I can use it in anything else. But um I started playing with that today for a little bit. So I think that might not those pieces. Um I'll have his dress. Daniel public facilities. Do you have in that online chapter? Can you download the existing public facility services chapter or do you want me to print it out?

Uh, if you could print it, that'd be helpful. Okay. Um, what's your address again? I can print it home and drop it off. Uh, DJ Brosby.com. Right. If I'm going to print it and drop it out of your house, how would I be that? Where's your address?

Oh, it's 494 Jill Road. I will give you the uh facility not you sent over the land existing future. Yeah. But I'd like to So I use chat GPT to help me bring all the concepts together from the mission and vision

um and our existing documents. But since our existing documents are old and need to be refreshed, I feel like I want to go through that exercise again um after we've updated all of our chapters. It didn't take long to pull that in.

But one of the things that um as I was working on it that chat GPT asked me as we were going through the process, we me and this AI thing um was were we did we want to manage basically the land through ordinances or um through zoning or both? Um, and since I don't really know the answer to that question, I left zoning out. I had it author it without zoning. Um, but you know, if that's something that the select board has been talking about that wants to incorporate into these documents, then then great. I just need that kind of feedback. So hopefully, you know, I think Robin should be here by then. I don't know. So maybe she can take that back and we can ask, but unless we had something specific in mind for zoning,

you know, I think it should be left out. Um, but I wanted to bring that to the table and say, well, what do you think is next time I go through this? It was an interesting topic because I've always heard every single time someone brought zoning in the town, the town's going to down. They don't like they have they don't want zoning now there are there are that was the vibe I was getting to so that's why I said okay well let's stick to ordinances these are working documents right yeah and next year we can change our mind and update it right

in the shorland zoning um ordinance there is something that talks about um like certain habitat areas that you can't so so you don't want to build there um you know and so do you have designated kind of growth areas is doesn't have to be zoned per se like this is zoned commercial, this is zone residential. It doesn't have to be like that, but it could be these are designated growth areas or these are areas of open space we want to maintain as open space. They're not zoned, but they could be I don't know what you call that. Now, last year when my husband and I applied to turn our bar into apartments, there was an outcry all zoning zoning zoning because we don't want apartments in a residential area. I'm like, those are residences. Part of the reason you have zoning is so that you can be efficient with your town, you know, resources, right? Like don't put it don't put a road out in the middle of nowhere with a an apartment building that now we have to plow this long road to get to the apartment building. That doesn't make sense, right? So that's how you

take advantage of of zoning, right? Is so that you're efficient. at least one other things as I was looking into these land use documents, right? Like this is how we're supposed to be thinking about that when it comes to zoning. Well, originally like way back I date myself here. When we first came here, we're doing the first comp plan 2004. The state had designated what they call pine tree zones all around the state. These are supposed to be for economic development where you could put in like small industry, small businesses and every town had to designate a pine tree zone. All right. And it became pretty cumbersome for small some small towns because like the only land in the town here that's be able to do that was all privately held. So the owner want to do that

and and how do you designate is it three three of this like say land across the street from here is that the guy I don't know 20 acres right do you three of it is a pine tree zone five you know how do you so finally finally the state legislator just basically said the whole state's a pine tree zone so we're all for economic development put any way you want right kind of thing. Well, that's what I was just sitting here thinking most of the land here is probably privately owned. Well, right. That's why you can't really prescribe here's what we want to do in the future, right? But yeah, or you could designate.

So, it's, you know, I think it did a good job of like pulling in concepts from our other chapters to be to use within the existing and future land use. But like I said, I'd like to go through it again. If if zoning is something that we want to explore, I need to get feedback from someone to say this is what we think we want, right? But so do they have without having that we're going to stick with we're managing things by ordinance? You know, does the town have any zoning? No. Because I think I remember asking Colonel Ferris and they said, "Yeah, we want to keep it that way." Right. But there there is commercial property. Right.

Right. But there's no you single plot of land is not so it's a commercial plot or right resial plot right people could put I mean we could you know I suppose you could say hey all along this highway right here we want to develop commercial right and and zone things that's commercial and then if the land owner wants to sell that's one of the things I mean you could say that we want encourage multi-use development along the 108 court Right. I mean, that's probably enough, right? Right. Right. Where there's only so much you can prescribe within these. Yeah. But it's all probably

okay. So, I'm on the right track with sticking with the ordinance unless this board here is different from feedback from the town. The other thing is I was going through some of the other town's documents. Um, they had a um a survey. Did you see that in my note? like once we got our get our stuff together with these documents being able to distribute them and then ask people prior to the town meeting so we're not surprised that town meeting or whatever like oh that sucks you know um what do you think about this resident and what do you think about this business owner so they had a survey different questions that they would ask a business owner than what they would ask a resident um so it's just something that maybe we think about during our working session. I and then they included the results of that survey within their comp plan to show that they were on the right track with what you know the comp plan was proposing.

That's part of the comp plan too is public approval. Right. Right. Right. Yes. There's there multiple stages. Right. So we're at the stage of getting all the like raw data together. Yeah. Right. And then we have to draft the so what. Right. So now that we know all this stuff about we have so many miles of roads and we have these kinds of trucks and we have blah blah. So what right? So we help start to the draft of the actual plan which is okay we know that we have to increase revenue to offset the cost of municipal services going up.

Right? So how do we do that? Right? So we're going to have to encourage some kind of commercial development. Where do we want to do it? And what kinds of things do we want to encourage? And what what mechanism do we have to encourage that like tiffs or tax breaks or whatever? Right? Uh do we want to encourage any more residential use? And if so, like how big do we think we want to oppose it now? Right? And where where and what's the reasoning like some rationale if we're saying like we're at,00 people now. Do we want to say 1500 is a good number? And then what if it goes bigger? What do you do? We don't have any means of stopping it per se, right? But you could certainly manage it by saying, you know, we don't want all this sprawl, like she's saying, more and more roads going in that the town had to manage. Do you want, you know,

it's hard to get commercial interest when everything's privately owned? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Okay. Well, we said for a long time, we have a chunk of land on 108. Right. Now, water and sewer ends at the edge of our property. Yeah. Right. And so if we said we're going to develop that next chunk of property, which I would be happy to do, is that where they're taking the wood off right now? Yeah. Um, you know, would the town help contribute or, you know, work on the cost of adding the water and sewer, right? Because puts more users of on their sewer system. Yeah. So there's a ways to create a W, right?

But I think if it's not in the plan and it's not written that way, then you get a lot of penit, you know, like why did she count that up? Yeah. And it's like that's not And I I would imagine now adding anything to town sewer is kind of up in the air cuz the whole sewer plan's up in the air. Well, the operator is leaving. Yeah. And we know there needs to be some upgrades. Yeah. But do you put take everybody off municipal sewer and put them back on? Can't do that. I don't think that's a huge expense that most people can't do. Mm-m. Mm-

So anyway, on that one, I think I'll try again after we get more of our documents maybe at a 90% mark. Um, and then we can tweak it as a because I think this is kind of the what do we do about it section, right? So, it's I can get a draft going, but then fine-tuning. I think I'll need help from everyone. your point. I think there's like multiple stages for public involvement from here going forward. We had brainstorming sessions with public and we had 10, 12, 15 people come to different I think we did it three different times. Yeah.

To talk about the vision and where they want to go and what they want to look like and all that kind of which was great. We had kids, we had older people, we had some people we don't who we never see at anything showed up. You're like, "Wow, this is like the voice of somebody who's important in town, but we just never see them, right?" Um, so that was all good. when we have a draft before we get to the so what I think we do that's a brainstorming session that includes a select board and the public yeah and I think you break them into sections and or we figure out how to facilitate that conversation so people stay focused because it's easy for them to go over

um and then coming out of that is when you draft the plan and then once you actually have a draft plan that's like 98% done you have another public hearing and give people chance for feedback on it that would be a time to do a survey too like Cuz then when you I just like surveys. I think you get interesting. Yeah. If you can people will say things when they know they can be anonymous, right? Like and I'd rather hear it up front than be sitting in a town meeting, you know? Oh, surprise. You don't like any of this, right? Don't tell me now what you don't like. And then I'll try to address that before we get to that point. That's always where my head's at.

It's not a bad idea. I think you do have to say that too because we've had people who have who I've never even seen before in town show up at town meetings specifically there to vote something down, right? And so they were dragged there by somebody else who wanted them to come and vote something down. I'm like, where were you when we had But that's why I think that's the other reason I like surveys. Now you're making everyone feel included because you're getting it out there. You're telling me what you think. So anyway, interesting things I was seeing as I was reading some of those other towns documents. So the push I think from the silic first of all you could have a town meeting and vote on this anytime does not have to be at the annual. Sure.

They would love to see how far we get could be ready for June which would mean it would have to basically be done by May. I'm like January February that's a lot of work in four months. We'll see. We'll see. I'm game. Yep. Let me know who needs help because that's I'm kind of in a hold mode. You're what? In a hold mode until we get more of those chapters kind of refreshed and then I'll go at it again with chat GPD with a more refreshed set of documents

and then we can look at those and add some more specific ideas. So, do you go to um like I got GPT0 on here. What is it or what is it GPT? How do you get to that? I Googled it. That's what I just said and it walked me through cuz it's smarter than me. It walked me through. Is it just GPT? It's like here's what I want. I want you to take all of these documents and this is what I need as an output, right? And it's like, okay, well, this is how you can give me your information, or you can do it this way, or you can do it this way. And it walks you through, here's what I need. And then it's like, okay, well, it it suggests things to do next.

Do you want me to do this? Do you want me to do that? I can incorporate this. It also did a check against what the what Maine is going to require from us within the document. So, I'm like, "Oh, yeah, that's really helpful. do that too, right? And give me the checklist of what you what you did and so or and you can give it instructions on tonality like I want this to be very uh reader friendly or I want this to be very like legalistic and right have this kind of language and you can tell it what it offered to go into our other documents and make it make all those documents sound the same have the same tone as

what I just wrote. I'm like, "No, no, no. Don't go that far. I'm good. Can you do laundry? Can you do laundry? My grocery shopping this week. Hope me supper." Okay. So, that's where I'm at. So, if anybody else needs help, let me know. All right. Um, so Daniel, will you be joining us next Monday at 4 p.m.? Uh, yeah. I should be able to. That's a holiday anyways, so four. Yeah. All right. Atlanta be there, you think? Or you're working. And if the roads are good yet?

Yeah. Those are always good. It's the crackers on top. Camp roads are always good. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Most of them. Camp roads are always good. My roof was pretty crappy before on a secondary. Well, you always have bad days and depends on how many drivers they get. If somebody calls out sick drivers, I've been driving the rangely. These roads are great. Yes, they're great. That hill going out of weld, soon as you hit the top of the hill, they lift the plow and shut off the sand. You're done. Get out your snowmobile for the rest of the way.

My god. Right. Jos, any other new business going to fill in under business? I'm going to fill in that grant workshop information and that meeting notes just so everybody will have it.

Perfect. Oh, that'd be great. I'll put it on my calendar. Okay. Move to adjourn. Second. All in favor.