Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good evening everyone. Thank you for being here with us on this wet November evening, November 25th. I'd like to call our meeting to order. Is there any comments on the um on the agenda for a motion to approve the agenda? Any further discussion? That's the way you work with Commissioner. Yes. Commissioner, yes. Commissioner, yes. Commissioner, yes. Commissioner Bates, yes.

Commissioner W. Yes. Yes. Okay. Members approve. Let's move to the consideration from our department. Consideration of the minutes from our October 23rd plan commission meeting. Are there any amendments to the amendments? If there are no amendments, may I have a motion to approve those amendments? Motion to approve. Second. Further discussion. Will you call? Commissioner. Yes. Commissioner. Yes. Commissioner. Yes. Commissioner. Uh, Commissioner Wait.

Yes. Commissioner W. Yes. Sher. Yes. [clears throat] What's the formal obstain?

All right. Moving on to our first item quasi judicial hearing regarding public hearing B2504. Steven Gerber on behalf of Neuroner Inc. applying for a variance. Steven Gerber of Gerber Architect LLC on behalf of Neuroner Inc. for a variance due off street parking requirements at 280 North Pock Street, tax lot 162, map 510 19 GD, the subject property is in the limited commercial C1 zoning district. The application will be reviewed against the criteria of the municipal code 17.90 variances. Does anyone object to the jurisdiction of the planning commission to give this matter at this time? Does any commission member believe he or she has a conflict of interest or personal bias? Has any commission member had any exart context or made it visited?

May we have a staff? Good evening. The applicant proposes a reduction to the number of required off street parking spaces in conjunction with planned redevelopment of a former auto repair garage at 280 North Perlock Street. The proposed use is a convenience store with a second form residential unit which is permitted use in the limited commercial C1 zone. The proposed store will consist of a commercial area with approximately 417 square ft including the coolers fountain break area, merchandise area, cashier station, deli counter, kitchen, bathroom, office and star room. The second floor living area will measure approximately 1,557 ft. The applicant previously requested an offering parking variance to a mixeduse structure in April 2025. That application was denied by the planning commission as the commission found that the application did not meet criteria municipal code 1704070 variances from offstream parking and loading facilities. That application did not include information on impacts or potential safety hazards to motorists and pedestrians that may occur on the site or adjacent areas. This application includes a generation study and transportation impact assessment. Moving into the applicable criteria for 17-070 variances in Wall Street parking and load facilities, municipal code 1768 requires one parking space per 400 square ft of floor area for retail and offices in downtown with an additional parking space required for a dwelling unit. Application materials indicate that the proposed conversion that after the proposed conversion the structure will have a square footage of 4,12 square feet. The minimum number of offstream parking spaces required by code is 12. However, according to the site plan, a total of eight parking

spaces will be provided with one of those being ADA accessible. Uh during its prior review of this application, the planning commission found that insufficient information exists regarding traffic impacts on North Long Street. vehicle traffic entering and exiting the parking area. The applicant has provided a traffic study exhibit A4 which ex estimates a weekday midday peak of approximately 62 trips per hour and a Saturday midday peak of approximately 45 per hour. Based on this information and comparison to other businesses in Cana Beach as well as a central market location in Rockaway Beach, the transportation assistant concluded that the proposed level of parking in conjunction with redevelopment or redeveloped on street parking will be sufficient for the proposed stores needs. The assessment does not identify any significant safety hazards that would result into the proposed parking arrangement and that concludes stability. Uh there been any further uh is there any further um comments, testimonies, letters, anything that comes to

there was an additional I'm sorry a question for there was an additional um additional text in your um staff report about formula food restaurant.

That is a comment. I put that in the stand report because it was something that was discussed last time. I put that in um just because it was brought up. However, we are discussing a street parking variance and not the proposed use itself. So, this may not that comment may not necessarily be gerine to today's discussion. We can come back to that. We're a little bit of those views come before the mission prior to uh their

the use itself is a use by right. Um so it is a permitted use as far as a convenience store itself. Um the redesign would go before designer work, but there would not need to be a conditional use permit for the actual convenience store or the residential unit. Um specifically the restaurant prepared food or formula food section, where will that go or how will that be determined? So if an application comes in, if it is determined that this is a formula food or restaurant, uh we would handle that at that time.

So you So you don't really have information you need determination. We don't have a complete application for the proposed redevelopment yet. Right now we're just addressing the street department of merits. Sorry to keep beating a dead horse here, but would this be an administrative decision regarding whether this is formulate code or not? under the criteria. Yes.

Okay. [clears throat] Well, we can dive back into that if we want to maybe discuss that a little deeper later. Uh we'll move into public testimony. I I Robert, I thought they were asking for 11 addition parking stars and you mentioned 12. So then the 11 well would be Mon Street or with the additional residents it would be 12. That's how I calculated it. I probably rounded it up or they may have rounded down. Um they are requesting to eight based on the site.

Yeah. And I would just add that I'm not necessarily convinced that the the authority for the apartment uh one unit is the correct. So is is that before us today that that assessment that the department only needs one that's spelled out specifically in the seam code language I believe I know and I disagree with the interpretation that this particular code provision applies as opposed to another one. So is that before us or disagree you can bring that up when we get a declaration. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay. We'll move to public testimony. The pertinent criteria to be considered are noted in the staff reports and listed on the criteria sheets on the meeting page of the city's website. Testimony, arguments, and evidence must be directed toward those criteria or other criteria that in the comprehensive plan or municipal code which the person testifying believes apply to a decision. Failure to raise an issue accompanied by statements or evidence sufficient to afford the decision maker and the parties an opportunity to respond to the issue precludes appeal based on that issue. Prior to the conclusion of the initial evidentiary hearing, any participant may request an opportunity to present additional testimony, arguments, or evidence regarding the application, planning commission shall grant such requests by continuing the public hearing or leaving the record open for additional written testimony, arguments, or evidence. Persons to testify shall receive first receive recognition from the chair, state their full name and mailing address, and if appearing in a representative capacity, identify whom they represent. Is there a presentation by the applicant? Yes, please go ahead if you give us your full name and mailing address first.

My name is Steven Gerber. Mailing address 9340 Southwest Youngberg Hill Road, McMinnville, Oregon 97128.

Go ahead, Mr. [clears throat] All right. All right, I'm going to sh Hold on a second. Let me share my Can you see my screen? No. Let me One minute. I got it. I got it right there. How's that? Um, well, the screen's changed. There we go. Is that it? Yes. Yes. very small but um

well essentially um first site plan here is the existing site plan as you're sure you all are very familiar it's been this way for many years not a lot of not a lot of parking provided um maybe some in the back but there was no formal parking and there was one uh one parallel parking provided on the street there was just one stretch of curb the rest was was essentially a lowered curb for access apron to the to the uh auto garage overhead doors and then the back alley area. Uh the last this was the last site plan we'd submitted and we were essentially trying to to uh organize it where the where the parking was between the building and the and the street and the sidewalk. Uh, we've heard you loud and clear that it seemed to cause or create two two issues with crossing the pedestrian pedestrian way along Hemlock in two locations, both being a one-way one-way u access lot. And so we went ahead and redesigned it and looked at it in this fashion. rotated the plan the 180 degrees creating one one uh access apron for in and out which again minimizes the traffic across that that pedestrian which is key in this this pedestrianoriented town. Uh we were able to we're able to get eight parking spaces as noted. Um I question that we need the 11 parking spaces per the calc the calculation of 400 ft per parking space. I I picked up in your zoning code that you uh anything above a 0.5 is rounded up. Anything below is rounded down. So I was I was counting it as 10

was were required for the store plus a one for for the housing above. That can be that can be confirmed. But that was that was my assumption and that's how I I labeled it as such. But in this and and also that um 4,100 ft we ended up with we were a little bigger actually. We were like at four 4,300 and some and that would have get required the full 11. But we uh as I went through this and prepared this noted in your um your land use requirements that you prefer to have planting along the sidewalk along the sidewalks between the building and the and the sidewalk. So, we actually shrunk the store down to that 4,100 square feet and integrated some some more landscaping right here along along that sidewalk and along the covered sidewalk that'll that'll wrap the building. Um, in that previous site plan or the original site plan, you know, we there was one on street parking in the in the one we presented before, the 70°ree parking with the oneway inway, one way out that that only allowed for two parallel parking on the street. In this configuration, we can get three parallel parking spots on the street. So, we were we're putting in our variants in hopes that providing these eight, creating this new configuration, and then these additional three, one of which we were going to we uh talking with the traffic engineer, we would maybe designate as a a 10-minute only for for any quick anybody that's stopping to to for a quick jaunt into the market. Um, and that and that was and that was kind we did we did talk to some neighbors. The uh owner did talk to somebody in town that owned a lot and we were looking to we were looking to try to try to uh lease a parking spot for the residence above offsite and we were

unable to attain that. And then we were also if you if you look at the plan let me jump to the next one. the floor plan. I was showing the access to the to the studio apartment or the excuse me, the the three-bedroom apartment from the from the store level down below here, but we were also showing this this secondary stair out the back which would access that upper level because there's like a 9 10t wide by 100t strip that's at that upper level that serves the adjacent property um that hotel that's up there. And we were actually looking to to try to put in a parking spot for the housing at this location. And in in our coordination with that property owner, he was a little reluctant to do that. I he was not uh not happy with the fact that he wasn't able to purchase this property and just was was was a little uh reluctant to allow us to do that. So, I'm still showing that stair there, but but that was the reason it was there. We were literally going to try to put in a put in a parallel parking space access from that upper upper lot. So that is my presentation.

Any questions? Um are [clears throat] you including the three on you're not including the three on the street in any calculations right? We've got an eight right here on property and then an additional three. You're saying parallel parking on the street. No, no, we're not we're not including those. We're just pointing it out.

Well, thank you. I'm also really glad that you have put the uh parking lot access and egress on the opposite side of a candy store because there's a lot of pedestrian traffic over there too. I think that makes consent. I had a question regarding left turns out of that lot. I know that intersection well and I have some concerns about left turns of the lot. Has the owner given any consideration to maybe making that a forced right turn exit? No, but I'm that would be something that we would consider because I I see your point because that is that is the main uh flow from the secondary access from 101. So I could see how that would that would be beneficial. And my one other question would be, has the owner considered the possibility of adding a couple of studio units that would be available for long-term rental to local people who work here in town other than individuals who are employed at the store? Uh yes, but I per zoning code it was I saw the the section that said in a um in a commercial use you're allowed up to a 1500 square foot residence with that's attached or in conjunction with the commercial use. So I was just trying to meet the code and not trigger not have to get into I don't know further u negotiation. So, if that's something that that the city would be uh uh open to and we I do believe that the uh the owner would be open to that as well. We have talked about it, but I just thought we were limited.

Understood. Thanks. Can Can you give the dimension of each of these spots? How wide they are in particular? Uh 9 ft. 9 ft. Yes. They're 9 by Thank you. Thus far, you've provided us with two completely different designs. As of which one do you feel were better? The second or the first one that you presented in May? Uh the second one. The one I'm presenting today.

The the first one. The first one was uh more in line with what the clients typically have provided in other locations and they were they were uh they they they wanted to go up go forward with that that that layout. I kind of had a hunch this was going to be more of a more of an acceptable and actually architecturally it's more of an acceptable design too because it it defines your pedestrian way and it defines your road by getting that by putting the building up against the the lot there engages the the the uh sidewalk a little a little better. So the second one the one that's rotated is the one I I like.

Thank you. You said in I might have miser you. Did you say they have other markets there in with this design or similar designs? Well, [snorts] they have nothing like Well, they have, you know, the one in Rockaway. It has Okay. It has it has the uh the parking in front of the building. So, there's the there's the sidewalk, the parking lot, and then the building. So, you have to cross the parking lot to get from the sidewalk to the building. So, they name the market. It's the center market in Rockaway.

Yeah, there's two. There's one that's there's one that's what I would call a your standard convenience store and then there's a second one which used to be the old grocery store and they've kept it they've kept it um it's kind of a hybrid. They've kept a small stock of groceries, fresh produce, and actually that is more in line with what this store is is intended to be like. They're also in the process of uh setting up a a second store in Telmuk that's again a hybrid market, not not a convenience store. It'll have again fresh produce and be more of a small grocery store. And that's what this the intention of this this location is to be.

In what way, please? What's that? How How will it be hybrid? Oh, they'll actually have pro They'll actually have groceries, produce, uh fruits, vegetables, uh w a local wine selection. They'll just it'll it'll just be a little more uh customized to to uh the Canon Beach location. Other questions? Are we the traffic consultant? Can I join us? So, uh, are there other people on your team, Mr. Cooper, who going to present tonight or are you, um,

I'm not sure if my, uh, traffic engineer was able to make it or not? Can you see? Yes. Okay, hold on. Can I have you stop screen sharing, please? One last question before. What's your drive for the 2A? Uh 24 feet. 24 feet makes me think this is 24 hours. Is the proposed use 24 hours?

Uh I believe I believe I'm not sure. I believe so. Could be. Any other questions? I believe Jennifer Danser may be track specialist. Okay. Hello, Jennifer. Hello, Mrs. Manfred.

Hello. Do you have a presentation for us tonight? I I don't have a presentation. I can go over the work that we did and um just to kind of summarize what we found. We looked at um two sites. Um we Excuse me for interrup excuse me for interrupting. Let me get that one out. Uh could you give us your your full name and mail? Sure. Absolutely. Sorry about that. My name is Jennifer Danziger. Uh my address is uh 1130 Southwest Morrison Street, Sweet 318 Portland. Thank you. Go ahead.

Sure. Um so we surveyed um two locations. One was the um Mariner Market in town um where you're you you're getting a sampling. It's It's not quite I mean it's a little bit more of a grocery store than what's planned here. Um which will be sort of a hybrid convenience grocery, but um it was the most sort of representative of both the location and at least the the the short shopping type of trips that were made. So we surveyed the Mariner Market and then the other site that we looked at was a a the true convenience store in Rockaway. um understanding and what that was. And in that case, again, what Stephen was saying is that store is um it has convenience items, it has a few beach things, but it's your it's pretty much your standard store. It didn't have any fresh produce or those kinds of things. It did have alcohol in it. Um we surveyed both of those for a um a Wednesday and a Saturday and we did it from about 11 to 300 p.m. And we looked to see, you know, what was the busiest hour um so that we could get some volumes and understand um how many people and how many cars were going to those stores. And we um we use that information and I'm I'm pulling up my my file for myself right now. We use that information to generate some uh trip generation rates that reflect the um the coastal convenience store represented maybe by um the Rockaway store and then the um the an activity in uh Canon Beach. And there's definitely a lot more pedestrian activity at the

Canon Beach store than there was at the Rockway. There was quite a bit of of uh pedestrian activity at the Rockaway store. People do park and uh walk along the strip there. It's right next to some of the the busier um downtown Rockaway stores or activities that are there. Um and we came up with some rates that um so as I said mentioned we we calculated um we measured the number of cars that came in but we also measured the total number of people in those cars and the total number of people who were walking to the stores. So we had a sense of of what the uh utilization was and what we found with those was in fact that the the utilization of the stores themselves, the person trips um at Mariner Market um during the busiest hour on a weekday, it was roughly 48 trips occurred, person trips occurred um per thousand square feet. So we're converting it to a measurement which is just size and then per thousand square feet. And in the um Rockaway store, it was actually it was it was 40 40 person trips per thousand square feet. So that was actually a lower generator than the Mariner market during the week. Um and then on the weekday weekend though, they were actually very similar. It was 46 and 47 trips per thousand square feet. So they have not dissimilar um characteristics in terms of the total number of people going to the store. However, um the the store in Rockaway, which again it's on the highway, it's very it's much more carentric. You have a lot more traffic passing by. It was about um twice as high in terms of the number of vehicle trips in the morning or in the in the week on the weekday and then was about three times as high on the weekend. So people more people are driving to that store um in Rockaway than they are in Mariner Market. we had

saw more people just walking up to the store um in Mariner Market and um some of that may be people parking off you know in the in the other in the larger parking lot but my experience at least on a weekend and this was July is you know it's pretty hard to find parking you're not convenience parking for the Mariner lot uh Mariner market in the um the big public parking lots it's just hard you know I mean it's hard to find a face there during the during those peak periods. So, we used that data and we um did a slight weighting of the um the things in favor of the the Canon Beach and we came up with some trip rates that we felt were representative of a um a convenience market or conven uh a convenience market/ small grocery store in in a coastal community that might be representative of what was happening in Canon Beach and came up with the estimates that um were presented did earlier and um which was uh a total of 62 trips. So when we say a trip we mean either in or out. So every car makes two trips not one trip. So 62 trips would mean roughly 31 cars on a weekday and uh it was 45 trips. So roughly, you know, someone didn't quite make it out in the average um about 22 or 23 cars going in or out um on the weekend during the busiest hour. Um the other thing that we looked at and that's just, you know, more from an uh the standpoint of how things are going. And some of that traffic is, you know, it's coming from traffic that's already driving by. So they they come by, they stop, and they kind of keep going. and some of it is coming, you know, they're making a trip specifically to that store. They might be staying in town and

they drove over to the store to pick something up. So those are, you know, typically what's happening with um that type of shopping in terms of uh about 50% or so coming from this from the traffic that's already on the roadway and about 50% coming from, you know, with a purpose that's specific to going from an origin to the store and going back to their origin. Um so that was one set of information. The other thing we did was we looked at the parking during those busiest times and and actually a longer period than that just to see um how heavily utilized were the parking lots there. Um, Mariner Market has uh seven spaces in front of their store and an ADA space and um the Rockway Market has it's a little bit um it's it's a little bit different in in terms of the um parking because it has um has about 14 or 15 spaces. Most of them were were um utilized by the patrons, but they have a few people that come in there and park and then walk off someplace else, but they have a much larger parking lot um in terms of activity there. But what I observed and and we also looked at just for reference when we were looking at the parking, we also looked at the spaces that are available for the post office that are in that shared parking lot with Mariner Market. And um if we saw someone park in one of those spaces and walk into the store, that was counted as a parked space for the um the market. And what we found is that the um in general both of them ended up at about six to seven park spaces. I believe on the weekday, sorry I'm switching back and forth between screens here. Um on the weekday um there was one

time when uh Mariner Market had all seven spaces were occupied and someone parked in a post office space and walked into the store. Um in no time did we we actually see the the ADA space was occupied in either of the stores. So um it's a requirement but it it you know when I when I talk about the number that one was excluded in those. So um the demand was typically seven spaces, six to seven spaces during the bus busiest times and a lot of times there were empty spaces. Uh Mariner Market also has two um 10-minute spaces on the same side of hemlock um that are there right right at the entry to the market and I believe there's two more on the other side of the street as well or one more on the other side of the street. So there's also some convenience parking right uh street parking right in that area that's time limited. [snorts] Um so those were the general findings. We also did do some counts on hemlock actually was on third which turns into hemlock um just to understand the volumes. I could talk a little bit about that if you're interested in what we found in terms of volumes and speeds and such on in that area. But um that's the gist of the study. So with that in mind, we think that the eight spaces should be able to accommodate the demand um most of the time um for the for the store. It's a little bit smaller than Mariner Market um and it's it's it's pretty high turnover. We suggested with the uh increase in on street parking that maybe one of the spots could be a time restricted space um similar to what we see in downtown and that would potentially serve some of the businesses that are there. Not necessarily specific to that site, but also to the candy store next door if someone wanted to run

in. but that that might provide a little bit extra um convenience parking for people coming through that area since there were was an incre will be an increase in on street parking with the changes in frontage with this project. The other thing we suggested was that the the parking is time limited at Mariner Market. It is it is time limited at the Rockway site. It's not. Um, and that's I think one of the reasons why we see saw people um using that parking and walking off site and doing other things. Um, so are there any questions for me?

I have one. [clears throat] Uh, how do you anticipate if the parking lot is full that somebody's going to pull in to see that it's full and then turn around and be able to leave? Are they going to have to just back right out or

stay there and turn around? I think they can see the parking lot as they're approaching on the highway. So, if um I mean I think they can see if the spaces are full or not. So, um my hope would be that they don't um that they they see the parking lots full and they don't pull in. Um they just keep going and and that's where again that that space may be. I will note um I mentioned that we did collect some information on hemlock itself that um uh I would uh mention that the speeds um on the roadway sorry I'm looking to see the average speed on um is on third so before the corner but the average speed in the center of third was that that was the place we could put it where we weren't um we can get a tube down that's not being affected by people parking on it and such. The average speed was about 9 mph and the um the 90th uh the 85th percentile speed was about 13 14 miles hour. So um people are not traveling quickly through that corridor. Um while it would not be ideal that anyone was backing out, I don't think it will happen very frequently and um you know it it uh that is one of the disadvantages of having the you know the single entrance that the other two entrance um al uh setup did have. But I you know I think in in general it's probably better to have the one point of crossing rather than two points of crossing on the sidewalk. It provides some more on street parking. So, I think that's a a lowrisk um occurrence. It could occasionally happen, but I think it would be uh relatively low risk or fairly

infrequent.

It looked like there was uh one time there about 1:00 that somebody was doing 70 miles an hour or 65 to 70. That's pretty impressive. I I suspect that that was uh you know something something got misreads. It it gauges it based on axle spacing and so something must have every now and then you get something that's just doesn't make any sense. You know picks up a vehicle the wrong way. Um it could have been someone you know I someone in a parking space backing up as someone was driving over. I can't I can't explain [laughter] quite how you got that. I don't think I would be it would be pretty impressive for someone to get up that fast um in there. That's kind of a throw out piece of information.

Yeah, like there were a couple of those throw out. The other comment I had was how long you anticipate that each visitor to the business is going to stay in inside the store.

You have an idea for that? Uh I'll let Stephen answer uh for the applicant and I can I can give some sense of what I I thought it was. I'll I'll go first though and that's just you know my observation was that you know stays were there were a lot of people that were there less than 10 minutes. There are some people that were there uh 20 minutes, but I would say it was maybe 10% that were longer than 20 minutes at the um at either location. So even though the the spaces are time limited in in a mariner market and I don't remember now if it's 20 or 30 minutes um they uh this the time that people spend there is pretty short so there's a lot of turnover that occurs um at those sites and I mean a lot of the spa a lot of people are there less than 10 minutes meaning I sort of when I was making my parking observations I was observing cars um you know within that within sort of 10-minute windows and um when we were doing our counts within 10-minute windows and a lot of the a lot of the turnover was less than 10 minutes. People run in, grab something and come back out again. Again, occasionally we saw some longer things. Um I think at Mariner I only saw one that really went very long, but most of it was pretty quick turnover. And then um Stephen might talk also about what um he's seen or what uh the clients talked about regarding

I guess is we've got I think you say 31 32 people coming in per hour. You've got five do the math. I mean you got to turn over four times of the hour just to accommodate the 30. Yep. It it'll be

Yeah. So I I think um if you look at you say um I I think most of it will turn over pretty quickly and that that that um I mean that's what we were seeing those are based on the accounts that we saw at those stores and again at Mariner Market they have a similar amount of parking and so um they were a little bit lower in terms of uh parking util uh total traffic demand. Uh but I I I think it I think it will be [laughter] I think it will be busy but um my guess is that this is even possibly a little bit conservative in terms of the trip generation that it that there it might be higher walking and closer to Marin market just based on the the ease of travel um how busy it can be in downtown you know in that downtown area in Canon Beach. I think people will be more inclined. It's a real walking community. Um so I it might even be less but um yeah it's if if those numbers come that weekday that midday weekday time period which I think catches some lunches and things like that too would be a a pretty rapid turnover of vehicles. And how many spots does the mayor have by memory? [clears throat]

I think it's seven spots in an ADA spot. And then there's three more spots for um the post office with an ADA spot. Yes, but those are for the post office. Yes. I only saw one used once where I saw someone walk park in the post office space and walk across to Mariner Market. Most of the time there was space available. So it was only one time when there were no spaces available in front of the market that I saw someone park in the post office and uh walk over.

Okay. So you don't think those additional spots for the post office are utilized having seven you say six plus an ADA or is it seven plus an ADA? I think it was seven plus an ADA. Um I I have to go back back and look at the number. I do have it in here in my report. Um, and I just it's just been long enough since I wrote it that I don't recall the number of I'm pretty sure it's seven plus an ADA. And then the um and then the utilization post spots occasionally and then the restricted at least two on that side of the street that are restricted to 10 minutes.

Right. And I didn't I didn't see those used a lot. Um it was a bit harder for me to see. So um Mariner has um eight spaces including one space ADA space that have a 30-minute time limit and then the post office is three spaces including an ADA space and those are 15minute time limits. Um but again I only saw the post office space used once where we saw someone park in the space and then walk into the market across the across the lot. So, okay.

I I guess my concern from this conversation is just whether the parking lot's full and somebody's got to turn around and not able to, you know, squeeze by and get to the same spot, right?

So, it makes it a little cramped versus the drive-thru one that was the original submission. Uh, you know, there are give and take it looks like for both designs. I would say that's that's true. It's a it's um there are advantages in some ways and you know tradeoffs that that occur. Um uh the the only one I really see as a as a disadvantage is is you know the not you do have to turn around on site. You can't just sort of park and then continue through or pass through if if in fact it doesn't work or you drop someone off. Um, and uh, so it it sounds like

it sounds like you talked to one of the neighbors about renting space. Did you talk to the city or any of the other neighbors? You're muted, Stephen. Excuse me. No, that was actually one of the questions I was going to ask of the the commission if you did have have names and of other of other uh lots and people that were that would could and would provide something like that because the client is is is willing to uh to lease something lease some parking spots long term.

Well, I believe the city has a parking lot. I don't know, Jeff or um Robert, if you could talk about that, but I mean, wouldn't that if you're able to lease spaces, wouldn't that wouldn't you then withdraw this application for the variance? Wouldn't that be something you guys looked into before you spent all this time and money asking for a variance?

I hadn't no one no one posed posed that as an option. We just in our discussions early on it was we're not able to accommodate them on site and and this is this is where we ended up and the only reason we're looking at renting other other space that we've introduced the uh the housing above. So what's that? Yeah, I don't know. Spaces from that city law is an available option at this time. I don't have enough information to answer that question.

Well, it kind of defeats the purpose anyway. Maybe taking one spot, one spot and then not adding one to another. So, this zero sum game, but uh we can make that a condition I suppose approval if we go go that way. Some places uh be able to have as a spot for the the residents.

I did have a question on the parking study. You had mentioned that you could differentiate between trips that were made specifically to the store versus those that were just passing through. I'm wondering how you would make that determination. For instance, looking at Mariners's market, watching the traffic patterns, I don't know how you would know which ones were intentional versus

that's that we we um that's based on some surveys that were done. Um it's a it's it's a resource. So, I I I should back up a step and say, you know, we looked at um our our standard book of trip generation for a convenience store and um the rates in that standard book, it's called the the trip the trip generation manual. the standard rates for a convenience store uh would have been uh like 60% of the traffic driving by would have had to go, you know, it would have it was it was really um unreasonably high um for the location and that's why we went and did this um the surveys. But what we did that one of the other pieces of information that's also available is what we call a pass by rate. what percentage of traffic for different types of uses um is already on the roadway um for a convenience use like this it was I believe it was actually 51% um and just for perspective like a fast food restaurant it's like 50 roughly 50 to 55% of fast food restaurants so those are that data was came from an external source we did not get that specifically from these surveys but from an external source that said for these types of uses is this is the typical um percentage of visitors that are or patrons that are coming from the adjacent roadway. So, they're not adding traffic, um, but rather they're just they're they're um they're they're passing by and they opt to um use that that um that service or that um basically that service if they if they um if it's available.

Thanks for explaining that. I think I had one other thought, but I'd be interested to hear your feedback. Mariners market is very different in terms of its contribution to hemlock which is an extremely busy street as you noticed because the traffic leaves hemlock to go to Mariners but then it exits. This is going to be a much more complicated traffic flow and will [clears throat] add a different level of traffic to hemlock than mariners.

Agreed. Uh, you know, I mean, I it's it's true. And we did not track when they left Mariner if they turned back toward Hemlock or if they went over to um to Spruce, and I don't remember. Uh, but yeah, you're right. They do. It is. It's not going in and out the same the same location. Um, and so it's a oneway entrance, so they can only leave him. Right. Right. Right. Um, and um, yeah, but I'm I I'm trying to look and see exactly where they come out. They It is a one-way entrance and then they come out um,

and they circle around and they can go to either um, they go behind the post office to the left there and then out east, right? And then Yeah. when they come out then. Um but they do circle around when they come back out um onto um you can go left or right on

Y. Yeah. So it does it does you're right. It does contribute less to um hemlock in terms of it's only the trips in versus this would be trips in and out. Agreed. Thanks. Questions? Thank you very much. Are there any other presenters on behalf of the Okay, we'll move then to presentations by proponents of this application.

No hands up. Okay. How about presentation file of funds? Nothing. No. Okay. Um, as the applicant, you have the opportunity to put in any final statements before we close the record to further uh testimony. I think we don't have anything to add. Okay. Any final questions from the commission? Okay. and we'll close the record and move to our deliberation. Who would like to start? You know, I'd like

I'd like to know just to start out that by my account they need 13 parking spots. Um they looked at that residential piece the wrong way. The that will not be a single family residence. It will be group as and they need a parking spot for each member of um each person who lives up there. The other concern that I had was that in and out of that lot and I'm not sure people will be able to identify whether or not there's a spot available or not, especially if they're coming from south. They may not be able to see whether the spots are taken. There's going to be some congestion there. Two-way traffic uh on that 24 foot. And um the other thing that uh one of the other commissioners brought up is the left turn on Hemlock uh across the southbound lane of traffic. I think from Third Street, the visibility and the speed may not uh be conducive to left-hand turns there. Those are a couple of my concerns. the congestion and the lefthand turn as well as I'll echo what Mike said and that is the number of spots for the residents. If they have two or three employees that live up there most likely they'll have vehicles.

Yes. But in regards to working for the resident, it says clearly there section for residents that one dwelling unit residents that are provided in conjunction with commercial use where are those residents constitute no one of the area. So even though it has three bedrooms, one where is that brief? That's an art table. Um in 176820 okay uh residence section A residences residences section A uh does it take up less than 50%? It does.

So I think his calculation is correct. Actually, that that is not correct though. Look, read it. Single family dwelling and you have to you have to go look at the definition. Two family dwellings and multiple family dwellings. That's that's what they're it has to be one of those three for this section to apply. Um and you know what they're proposing is not that. I don't think he's saying it's multif family in any way. No. And it's Yeah. down one. It's a single parent. No, it's screw house look down farther. One per per sleeping room.

Yeah. So, so the way I read that that provision A is if you have a single family dwelling as part of offered in conjunction with a business um or a two family dwelling or a multif family dwelling then you only have to have one per dwelling unit. But but but as you look at the definitions, this is neither single family, two family or multifamily housing. This is group house which requires one one parking spot per sleeping room. So, you know, that doesn't change anything except that they're asking for five units. They're going to give us two back. They're going to take one away on the street, give us perhaps three back for their business, but take one general parking spot. And the proposal perhaps is to make one of those a 10-minute parking, which means they really um only give us um they take four street parking spots for five of them and they're um and they're and they're t and they're using one parking spot that's available for the general public to do that right now. So, it's a net loss. Now, I wouldn't mind it if there were um multiple units up there that could house, you know, other people, but right now um you know, there's really no justification for this. In fact, you know, when you look at that street during peak period, you know, and you're taking only five parking spots on the street, that's going to be a problem. I think their parking code was sort of a check on our volumes of the size of that we had

on secondary check and a per 400 spots which should be per 400 trying to exceed that based on Um by code they do require either 11 or register city for 13 that would require a larger parking area. So this our parking codes are as a check to the buying size of the building that it is serving.

So the restriction of that parking area may require them to have a smaller building. Yeah, that's an option they have perhaps rather than trying to ask for a um a variance that could wind up being problematic in multiple areas.

You know, it doesn't disturb me so much, but it it occurs to me that as we go through this that, you know, parking is a problem that the city needs to address. Downtown parking has become a business. It's terrible. People don't even go down. In fact, my wife won't drive it because she thinks she's going to kill somebody the way people pop in and out of cars, but um you know, it may be that that you know, this the council would want to approve something like this, but it should be considered in the context of the parking problems we have and the proposals if we have them that we would consider to fix the overall mess. So this seems premature to me both in terms of state of their development, their proper um their uh planning and you know the issues before the council.

I tend to agree with you. I think my my other point of view though is that we've talked before as well about the fact that these parking requirements mean that we end up with a bunch of paved space in downtown and that's a that's another tension to consider that we say they have to provide lots of parking. Pretty soon what we see is mostly black top and that's also um a question mark for me. I'm not saying I think this is a right application, but I do worry about that other component. I do too. Well, they looked at this twice and as I said in our first one came up to us in the table. I don't see how they're going to get more of these spots and it's no matter which way you're configured.

Yeah. So, you know, then that falls on us and pay and does the parking lot work. I'm very concerned about the amount of congestion that this will add to hemlock. But that would be true whether there's eight spots that are 13 and you know and that's what happened in the beginning is the single in out better than the one which from a pedestrian standpoint it is. It is correct, but it is also the C point out the end. And I'm running this right next door and

where I pulled in and I can't I back out. Isn't there a maintenance fee though? There's an officer parking maintenance fee that again it's another indication that they could take advantage of that. Um yeah yeah yeah uh section five if you can't provide the required parking you pay a maintenance fee to the city section five um for that privilege now you know other people are paying that you know I don't know what Mariner for example does but I haven't held businesses up and downlock that are paying paying for

so you know that is an option in addition to shrinking the size of the store and a bunch of other things that um really don't compel me to really want to accept the variance at this point.

Well, the 24man they have two way traffic is that really less of congestion or really more pedestrian friendly because uh if you have people backing out that's not pedestrian. Plus, if you have whether it's 24 feet here or 12 and 12, then you're still going to take up the same amount of space on the sidewall and you either drive straight through. See, there's no bar continue through forward and there's, you know, you can only make a right-hand turn into there, or maybe you can make a left. But at least that puts the exit if they put the exit on the south side uh farther away from Third Street where uh they could turn that potential at least is 50 ft or whatever the distance is farther away uh or more than that.

I think it was a mess of that. Yeah, it could be. But my point is whether you have 12 and 12 or you have 24, it still takes up the same amount of pedestrian space on the sidewalk. And although as a pedestrian having to check twice and with dead children, I can guarantee [clears throat] you totally agree two crossings is very different than one.

It's going to be a disaster to have two crossings that people are driving. Les or any you guys have anything you want to add in here?

Yeah. Um my my gut feeling to begin with was was some confusion on whether we were to address the residents or how to address that. I thought there were several places where um it wasn't clear to me whether the variance was for both the residents and the the business or um you know how we needed to address that. uh Mike's comments about maybe it's group housing and that has yet again additional requirements. Um I don't have any comment on that but um I would really like to have the proposal detailed enough to know exactly what they intended to do with the upstairs residents as well as what they were providing for the for the business itself. Um, and I didn't see enough detail in what I looked at either the first time they came by or this time to really be able to tell what what their intentions were on the on the residents. I share your concern on the congestion though in that parking lot. We've got a number of those one way in and one way and that's the only way back out parking lots in this town. Um there's one over by the chocolate cafe. There's uh there are a couple of those and they get terribly congested. Um to the point that I they're usually not even utilized. Uh a lot of times those parking spots are open. Um but anyway, I I just don't know that there's not more concerns than clarity for me right now.

Any further? Anyone [clears throat] else want to put any further comments out? I'm with Mike. I I think he hit the nail on the head with with the idea that that each room should have a parking space. And if if that's how I mean that's how I'm interpreting the code. So I don't see any way that unless there was something to convince me that that that interpretation is wrong. Um I don't see any way to vote for this. And if we do, just know that I'll be applying for a variance for my building downtown uh next month.

Well, it seems like an overriding concern is just our parking downtown. Um, we've heard that pretty unanimously. I think because we have some concern about interpretation of the code swear that it probably doesn't make sense to go down that path more the path of the concern about parking downtown unless we just want to hammer out discussion on on the code that's probably not something you know I don't know how you resolve it that's the point I you know

yeah it is an interpretation so Um my thought is um we've heard a couple people now say a couple of commissioners now say um concerned about moving ahead of this. My concern would be any [clears throat] specifics around the residential putting that as a condition. It seems like it would make it vulnerable.

Well, the problem with that residential housing right now is that it would just add parking spots that require parking spots. Now um you you might say well for these additional houses and that's the way that um for the additional houses for the additional class for the um other folks that work in the city. Yeah, you can have a variance for that but not anything else. Um that's probably how you know you would approach that issue if you could get more housing. um you know there is that that housing proposal in front of the the commission the the um council and and it and it tries to address that not necessarily for Hamlock but for other streets but it but we but I think that the people that wrote that went in that direction because the parking issues in the city are so big that as Eron says if you grant one variance all of a sudden you're going to be granting a lot more and you know you lose control of the situation. The reality we need to hit it from a perspective a high level the city and say this is how we're going to resolve our parking issues and then we can start structuring solutions for individual business. So Mike, if we were or tell you I'm kind of here's a concern. Tell me if I've summarized this right. You would feel better about this if you felt like the housing was not a house on top of a a commercial business. the house the house was housing and it served another purpose and that would allow me to feel better about

I could feel better about it but I but again without a plan in front of us it's hard to say but if they were just to add of their 4,000 square ft they have 1500 square ft for um the apartment the reality is they can go up to 399 square ft and have a lot of um workforce housing up there so you would feel better about Yeah, but then but then I think it would force us all to deal with an issue that their parking requirements get a lot bigger all of a sudden. And again, it's two more spaces.

Yeah. It's it's just um without without a clear policy and parking of the city that addresses the issues we have now grinding experience is just opening a Pandora's box for I would be interested if there have been pursuit of the option to pay for parking like other businesses do but I feel like that option hasn't been explored and that would make me feel better about granting variance if that effort had been made especially with regard to residential spaces. where we know that it wouldn't be a required space and it could be at a distance. Yeah. Customers, they're going to need to be a little closer, but a residential space could be walking distance from the building.

Yeah. Okay. So, I'm hearing you're not concerned about this request. I think we're probably on the spot where someone could put a motion up. I move that we u reject application for varants um based upon um the parking provision they provided 17 what is uh 179 98 um that requires uh 13 spots as opposed to eight not sorry that is not the record but pardon me I was 1768

1768 0 to zero 0 to zero and that um uh a concern that granting this um particular variance would um create bigger problems u with our downtown congestion and I think [clears throat] um the section of actually I'm thinking through this will give me a minute there's another section in here below what is the Oh yeah. What is the variance for the

What section is? Yeah. Sorry. I'm sorry folks.

My apologies. So say I I would reject the application based upon the fact that there are no parking requirements 13 exceed the eight that they are able to offer and that um the variance request for this parking should be denied based on uh section 179070 A1. uh that neither present nor anticipated future traffic volumes generated by the use of the site or use of the sites in vicinity reasonably require strict or literal interpretation and enforcement of the requirements. So that's I uh I move to reject based upon 1790 A1.

Is there a second? I second. Any further discussion? Will you call the vote please? Commissioner, yes. Commissioner, yes. Commissioner, yes. Commissioner, yes. Commissioner, yes. Commissioner Wait, yes. Chair, yes. Request is not. Let's take a two minute break here.

Chair Newton, if you can hear me, you're muted.

Okay. So, we'll do that again. Sorry. No worries.

Public hearing B250. Jamie Osborne applying for variance B2505 Jamie posing for a variance to off streetet parking requirements at 3524 West Chanook tax lot 1400 map 510 32cc for a proposed ADU the subject property is in a residential moderate density R1 zone the application will be reviewed with the criteria of the municipal code 17.90 variances does anyone object to the jurisdiction of the planning commission to hear this matter at this Does any commission member believe he or she has a conflict of interest or p personal bias? Has any commission member had any exparte contacts or made a site? [snorts] Sorry, may we have a staff report? Hey, yes. The requests an off street parking variance in order to accommodate a proposed accessory unit. The subject property does not have sufficient space to accommodate the required offstream parking required by the EU. Moving in the equipable criteria 179070 variances for offstream parking and loading facilities. The staff comment is municipal code 1772080 assessor dwelling requires one additional off-stream parking space in addition to the two required for single family dwelling. As presently configured, property does not have space for an additional parking area. The driveway in front of the house is less than 15 ft deep and cannot be counted as two parking spaces in addition to the garage. Due to the limited depth of the driveway, the residents of the house use a grassree covered area in the public rideway or additional parking. Due to the width of the house in relation to the front of the property line, it is not possible to extend a driveway on either side of the residence. And that concludes the stat report.

I see uh email here from Mike Morgan. Is there anything else? Uh no, the email from Mr. Morgan is the most recent one.

Okay, we'll move to public testimony. The pertinent criteria to be considered are noted in the staff reports listed on criteria sheets on the meeting page of the city's website. Testimony, arguments, and evidence must be directed toward those criteria or other criteria in the comprehensive plan or municipal code which the person testifying believes applying to the decision. Failure to raise an issue accompanied by statements or evidence sufficient to afford the decision maker and the parties an opportunity to respond to the issue precludes appeal based on that issue. Prior to the conclusion of the initial evidence or hearing, any participant may request an opportunity to present additional testimony, arguments, or evidence regarding the application. Planning Commission shall grant such requests by continuing the public hearing or leaving the record open for additional written testimony, arguments, or others. Persons who testify shall first receive recognition from the chair, state their full name and mailing address, and if appearing in a representative capacity, identify whom the rooms represent. Is there a presentation by the

Is that me? Uh, it may well be. Yes. Can you give us your name and mailing address? Yeah, sorry. I'm Jamie Osborne. I'm the owner of the property. Um, uh, mailing address currently is 684 Kolu Drive in Kyua, Hawaii, 96734. Okay, go ahead. Sorry, I'm sorry. I'm having a really hard time hearing you guys. Uh, no worries. Um, let go ahead if you're ready.

Um, I'm just here for questions. I know we sent out sent in our application. my um friend and contractor has been helping me with that. He's um still lives in the area. We are away on military orders right now. Um and we're just trying to um build an ADU in um with our backyard space um on our property there. Um obviously that's hard to do while we're away, so I've got a lot of help on the ground there, but I'm trying to be present for the meeting in case you guys have any questions. Um, no one there was able to be present tonight for us. So, um, I don't I I'm here to answer questions. I'm not sure what you guys have for me.

Sure. Other questions for the Yeah, just one. Um, Jamie, um, thank you for your service and all that stuff. Um,

can you tell me, uh, have you talked to your neighbors about it? Yeah, we actually uh I wrote a letter which my so we have some good friends um of ours and longtime members of the community as well um living in our house, renting our house from us right now. Um and I had sent Bridget over um a letter to distribute to neighbors in the um neighborhood and she did that just this past week. And I know we got um a letter of support from one of our neighbors, Josiah, who he emailed that to you or he emailed that to us and to you guys, I believe. And I emailed it to Tessa yesterday. Um and then I know we had a lot of verbal support like Mike Morgan being one of them. I'm not sure if he ended up writing the letter or not, but um and then support from our tenant and friend Bridget as well. Um, [clears throat] and I'm not sure if anyone else w was able to um, get a letter in to you guys, but um, yes, we have we have talked to the neighbors. Everyone um, is aware of what we are planning to do. Um, yeah.

No objections from any of them. I I think you didn't hear any object objections. Oh, no. Not that I'm aware of. No. and I and I gave them my like direct contact information to um in case they did have any concerns or questions and I haven't heard anything from anyone as of yet. [clears throat] Other questions? Um there's [clears throat] a little bit of a line of sight issue as you pull in going south up uh question. Uh I imagine that the ADU tenant would mark on the street. Is that correct? So, we

So, we actually do have um what I think is plenty of live of um parking to designate a spot for a tenant in our ADU. Um we do have a twocar garage. We also have um space for two cars side by side in our driveway. Um it's just the matter of it would like because of the um the measurements uh that are required per parking spot and it was like a depth thing for the driveway, not so much a width thing. So we actually are able to park if necessary two cars in our garage and two cars side by side in our driveway. And then I know it's not um we can't technically use it because it's um an ease a city easement, but we also have that space as a city easement. I thought that was worth noting. You know, we've like had access to that space for for years. Um you know, my like we've parked our boat there for years. My dad had a boat parked there for a long time, you know, and and vehicles as well. And that's always been um a space that we have had access to. Um whether we can technically designate it, you know, per the code to this ADU space or not. Um, I guess my point is we like I feel like we have plenty of parking, you know, as as long as we have tenants or like as long as you know when we go back if we're living in the main house or you know, our our friends who are living there renting it from us right now, they've got two vehicles like and you know, I feel like any family living in that main house is likely not going to have more than two vehicles at a time, whether it's us or someone else. And so there's plenty of space to have

one more vehicle parked on our property um for the ADU tenant, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. I've just been looking at a photograph there. That street looks like it's plenty wide enough to pull off of the street. That was my concern is if the car can be totally off the street with that limited sight line of sight coming up the hill there off the warish. Yeah. Yeah. No, it it's wide enough that that you can park completely on that um on that space and you're not on the on the road at all and not on the street at all. Thank you. Yeah.

Other questions? Okay. Thank you. I I'm assuming you're the only one here on behalf of the applicant. Yeah, correct. All right, we'll come back to you before we wrap up. Are there presentations uh are there presentations by proponents of this various request? We have Mike Morgan. Mr. Morgan, please go ahead.

You're muted if uh you're speaking. I can't see your picture. Mike, we still can't hear you if you're speaking now. There's your muted, right? question. Um I mean do you think we're ready for motion? No. Um Mike going uh we do have your letter here. Um, we're going to continue on and if if um, chime in any time and we'll come we're going to go a little out of order just to uh, keep things moving along. Uh, still can't hear you if you're speaking. All right. Uh, anyone else um, who is in favor of this request? Okay. Uh, are there opponents? Anyone against the variance request? Okay, Jamie, as the applicant, you have an opportunity to say offer any final thoughts. Um, if anyone has questions, now is the time. We will move to closing the record here shortly. And at that point, we can take no more comments.

Yeah. Um, I mean, like I said in, you know, our application and our letter, we're just like, as you know, Osborne family, longtime business owners in Canon Beach. I know we don't have our business there, um, anymore, but we, you know, were always well aware of like the, you know, the staffing trouble, the housing struggle. Um, and it's worse now than ever. And now that I, um, you know, have that property since my dad passed away. Um, that's just like one of the things that we had always talked about was like, you know, h like it housing was always a struggle. We never had like the financial means at the time to like do anything about that. Um, now I'm kind of just finding myself in a situation where I feel like I um could help with that. um you know and we've you know we've talked to some of our neighbors who do own businesses you know like the um Ernie and Malia like Coule they have an ADU in their house that they used um to help with staff housing. Um, and one of the things that we always talked about, my dad and I was like, how could we, you know, like house someone ourselves? And I was like, well, we could always, you know, build an ADU. And this was kind of like around the time where um, you know, ADUs were still kind of like gaining popularity and like it wasn't, you know, as popular or as common of a thing. And I think at first my dad was like, you know, but like built on on our property like really? And I was like, yeah, I think it's like a lot of people are doing it now. one away and he so he was always open to the idea and it's something we talked about never really um you know made any moves towards it but the reality is we have the space so we have that um huge huge yard double lot like you know we already have the like walk path access down the side of the house um and so I think that it would just be like a great way to you

know help with that housing shortage help the community any way we can, you know, help us like hold on to that house as long as we can. Um, we're hoping to get back there as soon as my husband is done with this assignment here in Hawaii. Um, and you know, whether it's like a tenant in the ADU or maybe like at some point we would move back and you know, we would stay in the ADU for a while and rent out the main house. Um, kind of just like you know that that's like my childhood home. It's the home that I the only home I grew up in and I and I'm just really trying everything I can to hold on to it. Um and you know as as you know for like our generation um it's a struggle like owning homes um it's a lot harder these days. So um yeah that's all that's all I got really just trying to get creative and um find ways that can help us out and it's a win-win for everyone in my opinion. Um, yeah, that's all. That's it. Thanks. Thanks for your time, guys.

Thank you. Any final questions before we close the record? Um, Mike going once, twice, can you, if you can unmute, we'll give you a final opportunity. A little out of order here. We do have your letter in front of us. It was submitted to us. We've all read it. Thank you for that. Okay. I'm assuming there's some technical difficulty there for Mike. Um, so we'll go ahead and close the record. But again, do have your your testimony. Um, good luck to begin. I did say to close the record, right? Yeah. Okay. So, we're officially closed to our consideration. Good luck to

I I don't know if I missed the the staff report, but was there any objection from public works? I mean, we're not in any utility right away or any other potential snafu with public works. I assume nothing was identified. No. Okay. Um I move to approve the application for J form 25-05 for variance for off street parking requirements of 354 for AU. I second further discussion. That's what we call it. Commissioner, yes.

Commissioner, yes. Commissioner Ward, yes. Commissioner Bates, yes. Commissioner Sinclair, yes. Commissioner, yes. Yes. 255 is hereby. Thank you. Um, may we have the tree report?

Yes. In the month of October, I tell you the 14 were removed. There was not a replanting requirement. If I remember correctly, these locations, they were all large logs and there was no need for a requirement on these. You mean had correct? questions. Good of the order. Anyone have anything for the good of the order? I'd just like to say welcome back, Chad. We're looking forward to seeing you in person.

Thank you. Thank you. I look forward to it myself and uh and want to just thank Robert for what a great job he's doing through the transition and and uh and Carrie for being on the call. Good to see you, Carrie. We we second and I think we've even thirded. Uh Robert, appreciation and we're excited to have you back. You too. [laughter] It's it's like the whole same crew, you know. Yeah. Good wet weather for you.

You notice we all have our sore layers on. Yeah. Yeah. down here all the time. [clears throat] Yeah, this is this is awful late for me, I'll tell you that. Thank you. Yeah, it is. So, with no continuation or request for continuence tonight, uh we have no meeting. Am I understanding that correct? Correct. We will not have a meeting in December. We have not received any applications for that month. Mike, we want to say the 31st of Well, whatever the meeting is.

Whatever that All right. say for the thank yous and all that. Anything else for the good of the world? The mayor here. Thank you very much. Good evening. Thank you guys.