Area Plan Commission (apc) - Regular Meeting

in there. Now I can

Put your put your microphones on, please.

I know. Go ahead. Um, good evening [clears throat] and welcome to the Brown County Area Planning Commission. Um before we start the meeting, um I want to uh request that you turn off your cell phones. Um no side conversations in the audience because it's hard for people to hear what is being presented. And also um when you are invited up to speak, you you step up to the podium, you state your name instead of a microphone, and you get three minutes to speak. And with that, um, I call this meeting to futer on October 28th, 2025 at six o'clock. Um, and do roll call, please.

Carol Bowen, present. Tim Allen here. Jane Gore here. Randy Jones here. Hams here. Andy Boils here. Kyle Doug here.

Um, there is no old business. There is no new business there. Uh we are having a work session on camper RV discussion survey results public input. And before we start that portion of the meeting, um I have something to read for everybody. Recently, there have been concerns raised by several residents of Brown County regarding the use of RVs and campers as permanent dwellings on vacant parcels of land. When referring to a vacant parcel of land, this means that the land does not have a resident on the property with an address. This issue has been raised due to concerns about health and safety as well as building standards for permanent dwellings. To dwell in a structure in Brown County, a septic permit and residential building permit must be issued and the structure must pass all inspections and be issued a certificate of occupancy for the structure to legally be dwelled in on a permanent basis. RBEs and campers pose a challenge as they do not meet building standards and waste disposal requirements. However, since they are not structures, they are not issued building permits and thus they are never inspected and cannot be given a certificate of occupancy for them to be dwelled in on a permanent basis. The Brown County Building and Planning Commission Department has had a long-standing policy that RVs and campers could not be lived in permanently because they do not meet the standards for occupancy of the county. The use of RVs and campers as temporary camping for personal reacreation has never been restricted. Recently, there has been push back on this policy since there is not a place in Brown in the Brown County ordinance that speaks

specifically to the use of RVs and campers as permanent dwellings. Because of the increased interest and appeal to live in Browntown, there has been an increase in the number of cases, the building and planning department has received around this subject and the increased need for there to be a place in the ordinance that speaks to this subject. Many counties in Indiana have specific ordinances and rules that restrict or prohibit the use of RVs and campers as permanent dwellings. It is for this reasons that this issue is being brought before the area planning commission as well as the community to discuss and debate on what the best path forward is for Brown County. And with that, Caleb,

huh? Oh, yeah. Just that. Okay. Um All right. Do I have a motion to approve the um minutes from September 23rd, 2025 meeting? I move we approve the minutes submitted both the regular and the executive session. Yes. Thank you. Second. Any discussion? Roll call. Absent. Andy Boils. Yes. Kyle Deckard, yes. Carol Bowen, yes. I'm sorry. Tim Allen,

yes. Jane Gore, yes. Randy Jones, yes.

So, we've got a slid slideshow presentation here um just of the um regulation survey that we put out. And so we've got one up here on the big screen. We also have them, you can see them on the side screens there. This question one, how often do you use an RV camper on your private property?

11. So there's daily, weekly, monthly, rarely, and then never. Uh we had 289 responses to this survey, and that was just in a little over two weeks. So I feel like that was a pretty good uh response rate there. Question two, what activities do you typically use your RV or camper for? So select all that apply. And then living, recreation, guest accommodation, storage, or other got the percentages. So, it looks like we've got 17.65% 65% said for living um 48 almost 49% recreation guest accommodation 42% storage 16 and then other 32 question three do you think there should be regulations on the use of RVs or campers on private property 26% said Yes. 68% said no and 6% said not sure. Question five, should there be restrictions on the duration an RV or camper can be occupied with private property? 18% said yes. 73% said no. 8% said not sure. Question six, what is your preferred

duration for allowing campers on the prop on properties? 83% said long-term use, more than two weeks. 18% said short-term, two weeks or less, and 12% said only while building on that property. Question eight, do you think RV camper use on private property impacts neighborhood aesthetics? 29% says yes. 54 said no. 17% said not sure. Question nine, are you in favor of allowing property owners to camp in their RVs on their own property? 75% strongly favor, 10% somewhat favor, neutral, 8%, somewhat opposed, 3%. And strongly oppose 3%. Question 10, would you support a permit system for RV/camper use on private property? 22% said yes, 63% said no, not sure is 14%. What restrictions should be put in place for RV camping on personal property. Time limits on how long the RVs can be parked, 18%. Noise restrictions, 20%. No restrictions, 44%. 11% designated areas for RV parking, 54% say waste disposal regulations, and 17% say other. And then of course, we had all of the

comments that you guys have in your board packets, too. I can pull them up on my screen. Um, there are 280 comments on there. So, any questions from the board, a lot of questions, a lot of information. Good job.

So, I I do have a question about survey monkey. Does Can someone take the survey more than once or comment more than once? Are these all like the 280 comments we got? Are those individual people or because I I noticed a couple like it would start with as I stated above. [clears throat] I think that would mean like in a previous in a previous question. Normally with those you can it's like a setting you can say are they allowed to take it more than once or not. None. I don't I would assume they're individual. This was open to anyone. Yes. And it was anonymous, too.

I mean, I still think it would take any issues or repetition or people from elsewhere would be minimal in the grant scheme. Yeah. Anything else? Will [clears throat] you just current What is the current what's in the ordinance currently? Can you just like give us a recap of what is it currently says

in the ordinance? The only place other than an RV park that campers or RVs are even mentioned is in the flood plane and that's for up to 180 days. But it's not um it's not an allowed use by the ordinance. It's not specifically stated that that a full time or longer than two weeks is is allowed for the ordinance. It doesn't specifically allow it, but it doesn't specifically prohibit it. Correct. And then but there are definitions of what like a dwelling unit or something like that. So it's like it doesn't I mean it wouldn't meet the current definition of like a house,

right? It does not meet the building code definition of a home either. Yeah. But obviously there's other right now we're just in a situation where it's like it's not it's not allowed. It's not prohibited. has just been treated as prohibited because of some of these other things like that. It's not doesn't meet the definition of a house or a tiny home. Yeah. You have a I'm sorry. That was I'm just wanting the refresher of what it says currently. Okay. Um we presently have a written policy. We do.

You have a copy of it? or if you know it'll cop your head if you think you want to try that. Um just just the policy actually is

Yeah. So it's been the policy um for as long as I've been here and this is what I understand even longer than that that you're not allowed to leave your camper on your property. So there's no determined time that it can be there. We just say you can camp, you can vacation. A typical vacation is a week to two weeks. You need to take it with you when you go. Make sure that whenever you dump your waist, we've got receipts for that so that we can prove, you know, yes, you didn't dump your waste down the hill or something like that. And I think Did you say something two weeks? Yes.

That was just the way they were treating like what a vacation would be. I think I was walking in with Carol was reading it. Are you saying that that was like specifically for vacant property is where that was kind of being applied or mo Yeah, most of the time because that's the com the complaints that we were to get would be, you know, people are coming, they're leaving their camper here, they're leaving their generator on, we don't know where their waste is going, those types of issues. So, our written policy only applies to what would be considered vacant property? Oh, no. Although it does it doesn't escape that. It doesn't. No. Okay. No, we just haven't run into to that. Okay.

And anywhere else where there's someone actually living in the home and then there's a camper that someone else is living in. Now, there has been lot lots of land that they were building a house and they had the camper out there. So, they they could use that while they're building their house. Um, is there any limit on that? That hasn't been allowed up until in the like by the by the policy. Yeah. Policy is not legally, [clears throat] right? Okay. I have here a copy of a document I think is the what you're talking about. Is this the It looks like it from here.

Would you like me to read it so that we know exactly what it says and doesn't say?

Uh camper RV policy. Property owners can camp on their own property. This can be done for short periods of time only. Example, average vacation time one week. Campers cannot be used for permanent dwelling and cannot have permanent decks or additions attached. Waste must be properly disposed of offsite and property owners must keep waste management receipts for proof of disposal. For vacant parcels, camper RV tent, etc. shall be removed from the property once camping is finished. For parcels with a home, a camper RV may be stored on the parcel while not in use. I can pass that. I don't.

But that is our new written policy. Yes. And you've got some other stuff just definitions attached to the back of that. This is from last month. Yeah. So I understand that we have we have a policy that previously wasn't recorded or it was it wasn't official. Right. Right. So, we've we've made an official policy, but there's still nothing in the zoning ordinance that addresses this particular issue. Yeah. It's it's vague.

So, it's not that I don't know if we've really made the policy. What she has done is wrote down what the policy has been. Yes.

Right. Okay. And and our own policy is somewhat ambiguous. I mean, that's leaves room for and what is a short time? What is like there there's some ambiguity in there? I'm understand that that we're discussing this not because we're trying to find something new to regulate, but because there there is there is a school of thought that says we we can't let people live in campers. But then there's a school of thought that says people own property and buy a camper. They can do what they want on their property

and there's like an active complaint against the neighbor where it's an active issue for someone in the county. That's what I and I also think we're trying to give some clarification to um commission personnel as to how to handle this 100%. I I wanted to catch everyone up as to how we got here like why this is even being discussed uh and and I'm trying to add on to that a little bit was we were trying to we were trying to provide some clarification to our staff as to when they get these complaints in how do they actually handle

and uh we found out that the ordinance the way it is written out really has no clarification or guidance on it on how to handle it. um with the exception of the written policy we have now. Um so that was a another reason that we decided to to revisit this. Um, from my perspective, I'm looking at it more from the standpoint of not so much people coming in and using it for camping, temporary occupation by family members, or somebody who wants to pull something in on their private land and use it for a while for staying there while they're hunting, but more of permanent occupation, permanent residence. And uh typically how we're handling all of these right now, as I understand, and Kayla, please correct me if I'm wrong or anyone else up here, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but when we do get these complaints, we typically hand them over to the county health department to check to see if the se if the sewage and the septic that's being generated, if any, is being properly managed according to both county and state regulation.

Is that correct?

That's correct. Okay. So that gives you a little bit of background and why we're here this evening to discussing this. But hopefully we wanted input from you all and the 280 some people that we heard from whether or not we you feel there is a problem here something we should be looking at something we should be considering because it is a land use issue and that's what the planning commission is set up to do and that's what our development code is to address. Um just as a side question on the tiny like as from a tiny home perspective which those were added like as an allowable dwelling type I don't know how many years ago are there only certain zone like zoning designations where that's allowed or what's the

So the minimum square footage in FR which is forest reserve is 240 square ft. So that's the only zone where like and obviously most RVs are bigger than 240 square ft but that's the only one where that type of like small dwelling unit is permitted and even if it would meet the square footage for the entire thing it would still need to be on permanent foundation from what the Indiana residential building that's what I was also going to ask are there state level regulations that say like a camper is not a permanent dwelling. Yes. Yes. Well, what in here?

Sure. Always. [laughter] Um, I did have a discussion with Lonnie on this and apparently in this in 2020 2020 Indiana residential code, there's nothing in there that specifically talks about RVs or campers. But there are certain constructions that have to be met by that code that according to him, an RV or camper would never meet. So, like bedroom size, correct? Bathroom size, window size, foundation. Um, there are a lot in that Indiana residential code that that a camper, even the park model RVs,

correct, can't and won't be able to meet. Yeah. They don't meet egress, fire safety, footing. So, like, how are other counties that allowed like how is that being?

That's a good question. I think they've got a set time limit on them. Like Morgan County is the one that I'm thinking of right off the top of my head. They can they will let somebody live in a camper or an RV for one year if they have a billing permit for a residence and their their septic garden has to be in. They've got to use for waste management. So there are some conditions on on that. So if it like obviously it's happening here and elsewhere. It's just the sort of thing of like well we're not saying it's allowed but we're not saying it's not allowed. Like we're not enforcing that it's not. Yeah.

Gotcha. And I'm not even sure. Do you know who the enforcement arm of the state would be on that? Do you know is there is there an office that uh I don't I don't know who you would even refer I think it's a I think it's a lo it's a local issue. I don't know how they're getting away with it in other counties allowing permanent residency. Has anybody like spoke with DHS who handles all the building code and such? Has anybody spoke to them to figure out their stance on DHS be the enforcement on that? Yes, I was pretty sure it did. Oh, or the state fire marshal. State fire marshall been on.

I know that Lonnie's had conversations with Michelle Noi from the state fire marshall's office. Um, and she said, you know, she she hasn't seen a camper be eligible as a as a dwelling according to Indian and Estate Residential Code. So obviously depending where this goes or what we think the path forward is that would be like a line of questioning to proceed with this. Yeah.

In our existing definitions we do have structure which means a walled and roofed building including a gas or liquid storage tank which is principally above ground. The term includes a manufactured home as well as a pre-fabricated building. It also includes recreational vehicles installed on a site for more than 180 consecutive days. Is that in the flood plane ordinance? It just says the definition of a structure, but I'm betting that it's that structure is probably used in the flood like that you can't erect a structure in the flood plane. I'm thinking so said that word anywhere else.

And I have copies. I don't know if everybody else still has these or not, but these are from Leaport, Typic Grant, Morgan, Shelby, Jackson, and Jefferson. It's there. Taylor had gathered these last month. Um, and they all kind of range, you know, from some are barely have something and some are pretty restrictive. Oops.

Uh, David, question for you. uh if we were to come up with an ordinance or language to such effect under u Indiana residential code 2020 assume anything we could not be any weaker than that I mean we you'd have to comply with what would this be an IA Indiana administrative code it's 2020 it's not okay what would it Wait you're referring to the I'm referring to what the Indiana residential code uh and and he gave it to me as 202020. Yeah. And that would be an administrative code.

Okay. So, we could not do anything weaker than that, of course. Um or [clears throat] can we?

Well, that's regulating buildings and and um or would it even apply? That's my question is if it's a land use issue, I don't I don't know that that would apply. Um those and I guess when you're thinking about land use, you're thinking about what impacts this structure and the use of the structure is going to have on the land and the surrounding. So whether a bedroom is, you know, 5 by 10 or 100 by 100, it's not, you know, you'd have to have some impact on the neighborhood for that to be a land use concern. I I think I think the building department, the building regulations are deal with health of the occupants rather than the health of the surrounding area. If that

makes sense, but then how does that apply to our ability to either have allow or disallow like to say, "Yeah, it's fine. Live in them, you know, you just need a septic system or whatever." But if you do live in them and you do bring it in for full-time occupation, then that structure that you bring, if it's an RV or camper, mobile home, whatever you want, not mobile home, however you want to call it, would have to be there in compliance with IEC 2020.

That's what I for the building department would would be concerned about that. And then the health department would be concerned about your septic and all that. But so you could say from a land use perspective, like is this what you're saying that from a land use perspective you could allow it, but then the building department and the health department would be at odds with that given the current state regulations? Yeah. If you're going to use it for a long-term occupancy. Okay.

Okay. So you're saying even though it's not necessarily a land use, the building code is not a land use thing that we would still want to be in alignment. We couldn't be more permissive than the state code allows. I mean, I think that when you issue a planning permit, you'd say, "Hey, it has to comply with all other relevant state and local permits."

Well, yeah. So, Test would address septic wire and electricity too because some of the some of the concerns of people the generator running the whole time which is a noise factor for neighbors and stuff where electricity you would I would presume you wouldn't have that much of an issue.

Yeah. But that's not a what do they call that? A red herring. Like I have a generator that when the power goes off, it kicks on. It runs until the power comes on. A generator noise isn't I I mean I can see from a a health and safety standpoint with having something wired up, you know, like or jumping a meter, but not just because they use a generator. That's I mean [clears throat] we use generators but I think it would be the constant nature of it that is the and that's what I was talking about the constant running of a generator that has nothing to do with power outage or anything. It has to do with the living environment.

You're talking about something real temporary and and the other the complaint is permanent generator running all the time. I have a generator that kicks on when the power goes out also and it only runs when the power sounds. Can I tell you there's no more annoying sound on earth if your power is out to hear your neighbor's generator? I can attest. But so you got one.

Well, yeah, we got one now. We [laughter] And I can't hear their generator anymore because my TV's on. Well, okay. We all agree that what we're just what we know what we're focusing on here is more of a long-term issue occupation and not just a short term. And we haven't defined we have not defined short-term or temporary. We haven't even discussed that. But are we looking primarily as uh for long-term occupation? someone is actually living there, intending to live there as their home.

But I guess here's the thing that sometimes shortterm turns into long term. Well, that's like

I've I've been around a minute. I I know personally plenty of people who have either stayed in a camper or worse. And it's not necessarily because it was their option. A right. Like I don't know. I don't know that anybody aspires to go live in a camper in the woods. I I know there's a whole new thing on TikTok where people are traveling around in their vans and stuff and that's cool. But I'm saying the people who are doing this long-term I'm I'm I think it would be safe to say that it wasn't their plan A. It wasn't their option A. That they would rather have a different situation. So limiting someone from doing that uh and trying to get out of that situation I I have a I take issue with like I I I don't want to kick someone when they're down and I've been there. So it is a sticky wicket which is why we wanted public input because I don't think it's an issue that needs zero regulation but it needs like 0.001 regulation. I think irregardless, but my big concern is waste disposal. What that is and and how do we ensure that that's done um and it's not being dumped. Unfortunately, I know places where that's was happening and not necessarily with a camper, but um you know, that kind of environmental appropriate support no matter whether you're in a house, a trailer, a shed, that kind of thing. So um irregardless I think something has to be um discussed

with some kind of point about waste disposal.

I agree with you and I guess like where I'm stuck and I have a followup question for Kale. Like if if all things were equal, I would probably I would be with with Andy. I'm kind of like, let's just figure out how this, you know, can work for the folks that need it cuz who who's it really affecting if they're disposing of their waste appropriately and d But if it's not allowed by the state build, like where does that like give us a path? And it from the septic issue it sounds like you know that's a health department issue that already exists as far you know maybe I don't know you know I don't know how they're falling that's like outside of the plan department's purview you know what all we we can say you have to have a septic system or proper waste disposal but at the end of the day that's the health department's job to enforce and check I guess

well once again this whole issue may be moved because uh we're looking at it from a land use issue, but the Indiana residential code under 2020 may already prevent that type of activity under what it restricts. Say what that the residential I mean other words that RVs and campers just will not meet that that um that code aspects of it didn't meet No I don't I could not go into specifics of I think what you're trying to say is a camper is not a structure. It'll never be a structure designing. I'm not saying that. I'm thinking that the code does though.

Yes. So we're in agreement. I Right. So what I'm saying is if if that already precludes that prohibits that from happening or being used in that way then I'm not sure the land issue uh which is us even comes up for consideration. Now the other question is if in fact that is the case then I think staff needs to be provided some directions of who to contact when you get these calls.

And that was my reason for asking is there a state office and up at IGC North or IGC South that actually someone's up there answering the telephone with the state building office if there is such a thing. And I would wonder I would assume they would have some type of time period on what makes something like a per you know when does it become a permanent residence or a dwelling. Yes. Yes. They may very well. Yeah.

Lonnie is not here live is he's not he wasn't able to come. Pardon me. He wasn't able to come tonight. Okay. He thought he was going to be able to. Okay. We do have some of our health department folks here tonight. I saw Mr. Reed back there. Um question, Madam Chair. Oh, that's she's with the department. We're still okay. Anybody else on the board comments? I can you go back to question two? There are no more comments then.

I'm sorry. Why? Ask her to go back to question two. [clears throat] Well, I'm trying to go to the graph. the bar graph for that right there. Yeah, that one that is assuming these are Brown County assuming you've got an even distribution of types of folks answering this that's staggering 17.65% of people living in camp.

Yeah. Well, I mean of respondents because obviously you're this is how you're supposed to take these. It's a sample. You're supposed to write, but you're going to respond. You're going to respond. No, I still there's that's still a more people than in this room, but you're also going to get more responses from people that are directly potentially affected by you would assume. Yeah. But it is it is a sample. So, and or no, I guess recreation just I think an a very large number that can't be ignored by just saying yet can't do this. The answer should be how can we thought that was a surprising how can we do it for them? maybe instead of no and then

we don't even know if they all live in Brown County because this went out on Facebook. Go to question nine real quick on just the question. So this is just camping living. Yeah. The other staggering thing to me is you've got that many people that don't think someone should be able to camp in their own camper on their own property. But that's the point. I mean, yeah, point it out. Yeah. People think everything under the sun. Somebody thinks Yeah. Did you guys read the comments? Yeah. Yeah.

Read those in. Uh, I'd prefer not to have that many bleeps in my But I think there's a general sense. Yes, there's survey monkey censor here. some beliefs as well. But in general, it's like proper waste disposal shouldn't be able to be used as a short-term rental or a business. You know, it's kind of like the same requirements that you would expect of someone living there. Yeah. Would be um you know,

and and that would be something we would have to look into and clarify so that it would be consistent across the board and appropriate. Well, I'd like to go back to what D was saying too, though. Even if we went ahead and allowed that under those those conditions, again, the [clears throat] petitioner or the landowner would have to find out whether or not what they're wanting to live in is going to comply with the Indiana Residential Code. person lives,

you kind of fall back to where we are with all our other regulations, which frankly is complaint driven. So if somebody's in a situation where you're not receiving complaints, then we don't know. You don't know and it's not enfor it's enforced. And whether that's fair or not, that's the way this office operates on the resources and staff it has. So yeah, I don't think we can be retrospective on what's out there. No, no. I just I'm saying if even again if if our thought was, well, we would if this was the outcome, well, we would be inclined to allow it, but it's not allowed by the state building code. So, we can't have an ordinance that says it's allowed, then the default just becomes, well, if it's not a complaint, then

we're not going out. We're not like going out and policing it. Correct. Yeah. But when it's brought to our attention, we like my concern again once again is the staff needs needs to know what to do to refer it to. So any other comments? And with that, first person up to the podium gets to speak for three minutes. Are we are we starting with or just free for all? Hold on justice. No, hold on.

Okay, hang on a second. Yeah, um they brought up a question I didn't think about though. Or did you say vote? Huh? Yeah. Technically, we're not voting for against anything. So, just gathering information. Yeah. Right. So, free. Free roll. Yeah. All right. Yes, ma'am. Okay. Hi, my name is Eron Holler Croll. I work for the health department with Vinnie Reed. I'm sorry. Did you say your name? Is that Eron Croll? Make sure you speak at the microphone. Maybe I need to bring Thank you. Appreciate that.

Okay. So, I I work for the health department and um we are complaint driven and so I just want to kind of throw that out there. So, we do have quite a few complaints that come through our department that Ernie and I investigate because Ernie and I are in charge of the complaints. Um, not only do we have a problem with people living on land and that that's great, but when you have a camper and you're disposing of your waste illegally and it goes into other people's property, that's when we get the complaints. Um, so I Ernie and I have met with Cayla and Lonnie because there is there's a growing issue. Um, not only is there a growing issue of people living in their campers, people with homes parking campers on like property having a three-bedroom septic and then having more and more people coming in and overloading that septic which will eventually go into failure. Uh, so we we need like the workings of all the departments here. So um you know between subways between the planning department and the health department. So we we kind of all have to work together to get these things through. We work off of ordinances just like you know um planning goes by you know what whatever they have on their ordinance but we we get kind of caught in the middle because we have a hard time enforcing things um and because it becomes civil matter. So whenever we have stuff that we can go on, it helps us to do our job. You know, we hate we hate going there, you know, kicking people out of their homes. So, you know, Andy, I I know what you were saying. I hear what you're saying. The last thing we want to do is kick people out of their homes. You know, we have septic issues and people just disposing this waste and not putting it into a like a septic area. So, we wouldn't care if from our perspective

as long as it was going into some kind of waste disposal system. So, basically, you're just contaminating the ground and your neighbors. So, that's all I have to say. Thank you. Can I ask a quick question real quick? Yeah, sure.

I'm not as well versed in septics as Andy. Um, can you have either a septic or like a tank that you pump and haul away? Yes, you can have you can have a pump and hole. Um, you do have to apply for that as well. So, you have to go through a permitting process for that as well. A lot of people at Cordy Sweetwater are moving to that because they want to build big houses and uh septics don't fit. So, you can go into a puppet hall, but I will say that it is cost prohibitive because you are looking at basically another mortgage payment a month because you're looking at roughly around $600, if not more, every time you pump it out because you have two, 1500 gallon holding tanks with an alarm system. So, it's cheap to put in, but it's expensive in the long run to maintain.

Thank you.

Thank you. Next. Go ahead. Hey, my name is Russ Hearn. Long time Brown County resident. Moved here 50 years ago. Built my first cabin without running water and I had an outouse at the time that was allowed. But, you know, the reason we're here is because this isn't just a Brown County issue. This is all across the country. the acute housing, the problems we have, the cost of building a new house, $300, $400 a square foot, it just keeps going up. So, when people have um an RV and they can put their their child in it or their mother in it, maybe the mother can, you know, come in for dinner and use the house and do her laundry, whatever. These are these are solutions that are happening around the country. So I'd rather we not think about this as reinventing the wheel here and discussing it. I hope everyone read the stuff about shoots county and understand it. So this went all the way to the state level and they figured it out and they have a very robust plan and requirement that addresses some of these same things where uh noise uh disposal water and power. So uh they require that people have a pedestal you know you've seen them on Duna construction sites and such. where you've got your panel and your power supply and your water like a yard hydrating water. Um they also allow they just say in their code the state code for the shoots county is that they just hire someone uh with a license to haul the effluent away like a pump and haul. Also, they sometimes use people like the porta potty outfits, you know, where they on my construction for 50 years I've designed and built houses.

So, on my construction job sites, if they've got an RV there or someone's building their house and they're living in their RV, they they hit the portaot and they hit the RV 40 50 bucks. Boom. So, if people are living in proximity to a primary, also this requires shoots a primary residence as one of their versions. So, if you got a primary residence and it's your house and and your mother-in-law is moving out back there, you're going to make sure she doesn't have trash everywhere. You know, there's a lot more private ownership going on like that. If people are wanting to get on the land, it's so hard to fill these days. It's so expensive. It might take a couple years to save up a down payment. You know, what's, you know, what's 20% of 300k? That's a lot to save up if you're living and working in this county. So, um I I think we should take more time and develop a working group that gives us instead of trying to throw, you know, water on it, figure a way that people succeed generational families in this county are not the people that are building Airbnbs. You know, they can't rent those buildings any longer. So, let's figure a way where people where where we can help people succeed. And I think we can do that because the uh I was looking at the oh the RV stats online and they said that like 11% of people have an RV, you know. So that might mean we we may have a thousand of them in our county. Old ones, new ones around. Anybody that drives anywhere in this county, they're going to see a trailer somewhere. Someone's probably living in it. If no one's calling and bitching but complaining about it, then then they'll continue to.

Thank you. So let's have a work let's have a a real work group with take a little more time like the septic ordinance rewrite. Thanks. Thank you sir.

Randy Aspenson, resident of this county, retired Columbus police officer, retired from the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy and a Marine. Um I appreciate your time. I'm not here because of the survey. I'm here because of the problem I'm experiencing right now. So, this might be addressed more to some of you. Some of these situations are extreme and you can compound them with criminal activity. My case in point is my mother who is an 86-year-old endangered adult with dementia. She can't take care of her own affairs, has a 76 acre farm, surrounded by the park on three sides, extremely remote, one way in, one way out. So, her getting help doesn't happen quick. 11 or 12 years ago, she allowed my younger brother and his girlfriend to move move in on the farm. Her and my father, in their infinite wisdom, and I hate to say that, thought that giving someone a free ride was a good idea. But if they're drug addicts, it's not a good idea. Idle hands, folks. I saw it coming. I begged them not to do this. Make them get jobs. make them clean up their axe. Nope. So, they pulled in a camper after a mobile home didn't work out. There's never been a legal septic system there. There's a hole dug underneath a camper, a small camper with gravel in it. That's the septic system that they use. This is a two to2 million dollar farm that this is happening to. And a woman who can't fight back. My brother died on October 4th. Worst cancer I've ever seen. He died in squalor inside of that camper. That unchecked situation. Unchecked completely.

She is refusing to leave this camper. She is now officially a squatter. She had no contractual interest in this whatsoever. None. Refusing to leave. She's stealing from my par from my mother out of the barn and and other inheritance things that should go to my dead brother's children. Folks, these ordinances and things that you're doing nowadays, I I also worked for four and a half years for the Columbus Planning Department, believe it or not, before I went back into law enforcement. This tiger has no teeth. I'm not for big government folks, don't get me wrong. I don't like people looking over my shoulder either, but you have to have a little bit of protection. I know this because that's all I've done my entire life. I've trained over 8,500 cops in this state, including most of that department. Give the tiger some teeth or you can't do your job. Now, I've got a hell of a situation there. And my time is up, isn't it, ma'am?

Yes, sir. I hope I got my point across to everybody. Thank you for your time.

Thank you. My name is James Thompson. Thanks for the opportunity to speak to this panel. I'm a disabled veteran. I'm retired from Indianapolis Fire and EMS. Uh I own property in Hendrickx County, a home, but I bought some property here in Brown County. I was raised here in the 60s7s, so I always like to come home. It's therapeutic for me. Well, I bought a couple empty lots and I put an RV there. I have a pump and haul system and I, you know, it's properly brave. Not everybody who owns or lives in campers are criminals. But, uh, but when when I parked the RV, I check, you know, I got the health department out that everything proper. And I was told by somebody from from uh from the government center. Uh, I said, I don't live in it. I came down here last year. I stayed a month because I had a family member dying of cancer. So, we stayed down. I might come down for a week or a weekend just to get away to come home again. But we were told you can't keep the camper there whether you're living in it or not. It better be gone by November. You can bring it back in the in the spring, but it better be gone. So then I have to wonder if that's even lawful. If we could tell people when the camp vehicles on their own private property, whether it be a camp or a car we overreach in here and and should this be challenged in court? And I'd like an answer to that. Can I keep this RV on the property whether I'm there or not? We don't live in it for long term. Uh it is an issue that we're all going to be facing. I don't intend to live on the property. I may build on it someday. Right now, it's just a lot and the neighbors know that I have a pump and haul. They're welcome to come inspect it. They're fine with us being there. So, we include the neighbors in what we're doing that we have. And I think that's something that we're all going to be dealing with here and across the country. Olderly older people are getting booted out of homes because costs are rising. They're going to mobile homes all across the country.

This is no exception here in Brown County. And so we're going to have we're going to have to be dealt with. And um I'm not sure how you're going to do it. All the complex things you've talked about today is way above my pay grade. But I wanted to tell you about my personal situation. I love Brown County. This is my home and I'd like to keep coming back. But if I'm told, well, you can't stay there. You can't keep this camper there more than eight months out of the year. We're going to come haul it away on my own private property, that's concerning to me. Should I go and try to challenge this in court? Is it even lawful to tell me I can't have the camper even if I'm not staying in it on my property? I'd like to answer to that. Was I told proper? Do I have to move my camper this month or can I leave it there till my health allows me to go down? I usually take it back to Henrix County and store it there in the winter time. Uh, but if I will need to leave it here, can I do that? I I can't find a statue telling me I have to move the camper. Um, so those that's just my personal situation and I hope y'all can come to some consensus for people that are forced to live in campers. They may not be criminals. They may be down on their luck. I I do believe in sewage disposal proper. That's essential. Nobody wants garbage, you know, running down their land. So, that's something that probably has to be addressed. But, best of luck. Anyone else?

Hi, I'm Gary Harden. I've been here my whole life. Uh, I have 23 acres out on Del Road and I had a reszone first actually. I had a cabin that burned and had some health issues for a few years. I've been wanting to build back. I I have some logs to build back and so forth. I had an opportunity almost a year ago to buy a good deal on a 40ft trailer. So, I thought, well, I'll bring in and put it there and maybe rent it a little bit until I can get another cabin built. So, I came down and talked to Caleb and then Lonnie and they they called it an RV. It it you can call it what you want. It's a huge trailer. I'd hate to try to take it camping anywhere because it's so big. But anyway, um I asked him, I said, "It's a night. It's about 2 years old. It's really nice. I asked them to come out and take a look at it. Take a look at the situation. They weren't interested. They said, "Well, if it's an RV, you can't do anything with it." So, uh, and then I talked to Long on the way out one day. He was supposed to come out, but he said there was no point. And he told me, I said, "Well, if I can't rent it out," I said, "What can I do with?" And he basically said, "Nothing." I said, "What do you mean I can't stay in it?" He says, "Well, you can a day or two or a weekend or whatever." And Bailey says, "You can only leave it there 7 days and then you have to move. This is in the center of 23 acres. I have city water. I have a septic system from the existing house that was

approved. Excuse [clears throat] me. um for a two-bedroom rebuild. And I want to know if Lonnie told me the truth or if that was a lie that I have to move in seven days. And I also want to know where I can get a written rule book, handbook, whatever you have so I can read it instead of just what somebody tells me because I don't think I was told the truth. Thank you. Anyone else? Well, there isn't anyone else. Bring it back up to the board. Does the board have any further comments? I guess one question I have, uh, the policy we currently have, that's just a written form of the verbal policy we had that has not been voted on and adopted. Correct.

Right. That's just the that's just a draft for a written policy of what's what has been done since Okay. since I've been here. I did. Did Did we not vote on that? I I believe that you guys did vote to accept it. I was thinking as a policy as a ready policy. [clears throat] I do you guys remember? It seems like to me. Did we vote on that or do we just I think we just got it in. We said we weren't doing anything yet. should be in the minutes. It should be I Okay, you maybe you can voting. No, because I think we brought it up and then we decided that we didn't have enough information yet to vote on it. I remember just looked at it

and I'm the last guy to ask about from memory. Well, I think if anything the logic was even if it's a polic like it just gets us back to this at the end of the day. Yes, it's documenting what has been done forever how it's kind of like fallen but now it's not it's not an official it's not an enforcable ordinance. So that's the whole point of all this. Well, as a point of order, if we could Could you research the minutes to see if we did voted that or we did not vote? Daniel, look it up right now. Okay. If we didn't, then

it says the discussion of RV campers regulations were discussed and in order for the written policy to be effective, there needed to be an ordinance drafted. Ideas from other counties were discussed with Brown County. That's right. Because we didn't have an ordinance to back it up. We decided not to pass the Yeah. So the written policy that we have now has not been voted on by this commission. Correct. Correct. I think in general we wouldn't vote on a polic. The policy is supposed to be like here's the dayto-day way we're implementing the ordinance and it's just kind of giving people an easy to follow guide. But that's where we've gotten

crosswave suggestion on that. Should we vote on the policy or not? Well, if you have a policy to vote on, but I mean the the office would make policies. The policy is just like how they're enforcing the ordinance that's in place typically, right? Like we're not oversighting every day thing they're doing, how they're the ordinance. But in all fairness, that wouldn't necessarily be a day-to-day type operation. A policy, something that's set that should be carried out consistently. And is that something that can be done administratively or is that something that the policy should be voted on by the by the planning commission?

Well, if your policy is how the ordinance is being administered, um that can be done in office and if you're if you hear about it and you're unhappy about it, you can instruct uh by the fact that certain things that's been that's been the Basically, there's no reason to vote on a policy if there's not an ordinance.

So, back to Yeah. I mean, you have an ordinance that applies to the health board. Uh you don't need to adopt a policy to tell Kayla send these things to the health board or to the health department because that's in the ordinance. No, we don't have a ordinance for Kayla. Is the ordinance instruct you to send it to the health department? I there's no it's something that's always been done. Yes. Okay. But like it's a regulation that is the responsibility of the health department.

So why would it why would that have to be in the or I don't know confusing. Well obviously this is rather confusing isn't it? Apparently my understanding was if there was not an ordinance the policy means nothing. So there's no reason to have a policy right if there's no ordinance. Yeah. because there's nothing needs to be created first and then if the policies needed it'll be you know subsequently created you have a cleaning plan

no that's that's the way I would look at that is that the main policy from a planning perspective is written in the code and how that's administered is is just what staff does and in this case we have nothing written in the code, right? So, we should policy. So, we can this that we shouldn't have a policy on it.

So, we can a instruct the staff to not talk about it and not have a policy or we can change the ordinance so that they have something to that backs them when they're instructing people. I mean, that's it's kind of why Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me. Mom over here.

Well, I I'm even more confused than I was before we started asking these questions. So, uh, just leave it at that. I think again just for clarity's sake uh this board did not just decide to find the next hornets's nest to kick like these are issues and things that you're facing in the that area plant commission's facing in the office that we realized there was a catch 22. So that's that's why all this is is being brought up. It's been observed that we have a hole in our [clears throat] in our plan, right? So we're trying to fill the hole and I think it's incumbent upon us as a commission that we provide the direction that we expect the staff to handle these and go into

with an ordinance, not with a policy. Either way, but with the ordinance. Yes. the policy would be there, but the policy would be based on the ordinance that's not there. So you could you can write an ordinance that's all encompassing and everything. It's impossible. It can't be done. Absolutely impossible. And so from my background with the state, which I know that's not a good thing to to uh compare, we have policies to fill in some of those forms that are different rules and regulations. Sure. Not saying it's good. That's why we have

any other comments, Kyle? [clears throat] We have a policy that isn't backed by an or is not legally enforceable. I don't think we should be telling anyone anything goes against it's currently down feels like we might be exposing ourselves to litigation.

Yeah, I think that's what's been uncovered in this whole thing. Well, I what we say we I don't want a policy without normance, but maybe a policy would be to not to stop acting on the previous policy if it's not backed by immigrants or at least reconsider. Well, and the truth is we're not acting on it anyway. There's no enforcement. I get it. I mean, right. But if you're telling people this is allowed or isn't allowed, that's and I I'm not trying to say love you guys over here. I'm not saying against Oh, yeah. This is an inherited problem from years and years and years worth of

if we don't have anything in law that says you can't do this with a camper, we shouldn't be telling anybody you can't do that. Well, you can have procedural policies in terms of administrative action that have nothing to do with enforcement. Okay? You can have procedure policies in an office. Yep. Okay. That does it not have anything to do with enforcing someone to do something. I'm just talking about activity kind of [clears throat] that I completely understand. We shouldn't be saying you can't pull this RV or camper onto your property and sleep in it for more than two days. There's nothing in law that says you can't do that.

Well, it sounds like we don't totally know what the building code is. saying, well, no, the building code is clear live there. The building code is clear on what is an acceptable dwelling. Yeah. Right. So, it's not whether or not a camper is a building. It's not. It's not meant to be.

It's designed to be a temporary place to sleep. It's a sleeping bag with walls, right? Like, that's a recreational vehicle. I'm talking campers. I'm not getting into distinction of class or size or anything like that. It it is a along with I mean for that matter some mobile homes, you know what I mean? They have a title. They have a a title from the motor the bureau motor vehicles not a VIN number,

right? They have a VIN number. So, but those are designed to be a dwelling and they they meet being a dwelling as long as a footing inspection is completed, a wastewater inspection is completed, the as long as several things are put in saying this is safe to occupy. So, I I don't know that there's a dis like I don't know that the building code can be the distinction. Well, does it give a time like how long do you have to live somewhere for it to need to be a dwelling? 180 days. Okay. A structure becomes a dwelling at 180 days. What are you quoting the definitions that are in our

in our development code? Where does it say it also includes recreational vehicles installed on a site for more than 180 consecutive days? What are you quoting from the definition of a structure? Is that long? Yes. Okay. from our our definitions. Yeah, that's that's what that's what I'm asking.

But it it does say that a recreational vehicle means it's built on a single chassis. It's 400 square f feet or less when measured at the largest horizontal projections. It's designed to be self-propelled or permanently towable by a light duty truck. designed primarily not for use as a permanent dwelling, but as quarters for recreational, camping, travel, or seasonal use. I guess you get to what's in store. Well, I really think we need to have it's too bad that our building inspector's not here. So, think of addressing some of these issues for us. None of us up here are not that. Um,

and it doesn't meet it doesn't meet the square footage required for for the bedroom. There's a square footage requirement for kitchens, egress, ingress, for windows. Even like some of a a gentleman came up here and smoke and spoke and had a really nice park model RV. I don't know if you guys know what the park models are, but they're very, very nice. still not big enough for people to live in according to building code, according to our own zoning code that has minimum square footage requirements. They're just not they're not big enough. The bedroom sizes aren't big enough. The safety ingress egress is not big enough. I mean, there are many issues that prevent you from living in one. when you say building according to Indiana residential building code.

Okay, that's that was my question. Disclaimer. Then the problem is you you can't legislate morality. [clears throat] Don't make a law that makes honest people law breakers. You know what I mean? Like cuz the people that are going to do it the right way and dispose of sewage and follow the rules aren't going to do it regardless. So it's that's kind of a there's a percentage there. You know what I mean? That's why you need regulations enforceable.

So any other comments? Now what? Yeah, that that was going to be my question. You know, we take information. I I do have a question for the board of health and maybe uh lady anyone that could answer this if you could come up maybe Mr. Reese someone from the board of health can you walk us through the process if you get a complaint uh say Mr. Hastson's camper here on his acorage. That's funny you should say that because he did the hole in the ground. Walk us through how you perceive that how you get there. Um and what's done about it?

All right. So, it's kind of complicated. So, I I will say that when a complaint comes into us, we will investigate it. Um and I want to stress that we are a complaint driven department. So unless you know we get a complaint coming in, we're not going to investigate it unless it's blatant in our face and it's like septic leakage, whatever, and we can see it. So when we do get a complaint, um Ernie and I, we we always travel in Paris because that way uh you have another witness with you. So we will go investigate the complaint. Um we will make notes uh depending on what the complaint is. Um If you have junk cars or whatever, junk cars isn't best. There's that one's kind of There's no kind of like what's going on here. There is a hole in the ordinances in this county.

One hole at a time.

Yeah. So, I agree with you there. So, uh what we have to do is we'll we'll go in, investigate it, make notes. Um if it's septic, we um usually we not usually, we will test, we'll take we have water bottles with us. we will test it. We will send it to a lab to make sure that it's septic waste. Uh and then you know we have to move forward and say okay look you have so many days to actually go and fix this problem. We have one currently that is that we investigated today and they are moving forward with with fixing the problem. We do understand that there is holes right still more holes. Uh Indiana is one of the only states that does not offer any kind of programs um aside from Lake Monroe, Friends of Lake Monroe for septic. There is no uh there's there's very little grants that come to us and if they are um it is third party involved. Um so septic is a is a big problem in this county. So we will try to help remedy that situation. As far as other complaints, you it goes to civil matter. Um eventually months later, we get a court date and we we move forward. We have people living in um structures that are horrible and there's some horrible uh structures out there right now. Um and we don't want to kick people out of their homes. You know, that that's not our job. We you know, I I don't like doing that and neither does Ernie. So, we will try to work with these people as much as we can to bring it up to code whether or not they have water on uh whether or not they have electricity. So, we say go to the trustees, see if you can get help from them. Um, and sometimes there's a happy banding, sometimes there's not. Sometimes there's holes and floors and rats infestations,

and we have people saying, "I have nowhere to go." And we're looking at them saying, "I'm sorry." Um we we have we need we need better solutions and we also and I agree we need this gentleman said we we need teeth we don't have teeth to enforce a lot of things you don't have what teeth teeth figuratively

yeah and then the other problem we get into is whose responsibility is it you know it's we go in circles sometimes and it's not fun um because we're just we're trying to do our job and are trying to make sure that, you know, we're not hurting anybody in the process. Nobody wants to do that. So, yeah. So, I'm looking forward to ordinances um being pushed through so we can do our jobs better and more efficiently. And I think common sense will bottom line is myself and everyone else in this room when it comes to septic and sewage management individually, we have to come into compliance with IA410. Correct. Yes, that's absolutely correct.

Yeah. Now, there is some wiggle room if that you can't do that if the system fails. And then you have no you have no extra room to expand that. Uh there I mean I know there are some options but not too many. Verify many. Uh but but the bottom line is we're all expected to come in compliance. Correct. And properly manage our waste. Our waste. Yes. We cannot just keep pouring onto people's yards. Correct. Right. So we do try. So I guess a question is so in an instance where somebody does not properly dispose of their waste what is the order vacate.

So the the next step is in order to vacate um and you have so many days to come into compliance and if you don't then we say you have to leave your home then we go into the same problem you know it's where do you go from there? So it's civil matter, you know, court gates, stuff like that. If they don't leave, an ordinance really wouldn't help that that [clears throat] instance.

An ordinance ordinance is what I because you're the more the more that people can't wiggle and find ways out of it because people are smart. You know, people will will look at the ordinances and they will tear them apart and they'll say, "Well, I fit right here." If you give a clear definition of what we need, then we can help patina get better systems and stuff like that. You know what I mean? So, I think the more that you're you're putting some kind of limitation on it, the easier it makes my job. You say limitations such as

ordinance like if you're doing an ordinance and saying, "Okay, well, let's let's throw out a hypothetical. Okay, you are you're about ready to build a home. Um, you know, if you have your septic system in and you want to stay on your property, let's say for a year, you know, a year permit or something, if you guys do some kind of ruling like that, you know, and somebody's disposing of their waste properly, it gives us things to go on. If somebody's not doing that, so if if somebody goes and just pulls, you know, a a structure, and we're going to say structure because right now the issues we're having are sheds. We have these sheds and people are moving into these sheds. There's no bathroom in them, no nothing. So I mean we that's why we need these these building codes because that way we can say that doesn't define as a structure. We we know that it doesn't define as a structure. So what can we do? We we know you need to have some kind of septic. And I am correct in assuming I think I've been told this a number of times that the new ordinance that was put together a couple maybe four or five years ago for Brown County that has now been sheld and everything now defaults back to C14 which is the state regulation.

Correct. Correct. We we cannot we we have to abide by that or unless unless we go in in front of the state and have them approve our old ordinance. Right. And we chose not to do that. We ch we chose to go by state code. Yes. Last question. Uh, avoid your complaints and findings on houses and campers on waste issues. How many of them are campers versus homes?

I would say half about half are campers. probably I think I I respond to you probably we probably respond to somewhere in the neighborhood of five complaints a month on campus and we have found campers that runs their septage and the woods I didn't hear that last sentence oh he's saying that we have run into issues could you step up here to the microphone so we can all hear that was going to be the next thing's my boss by the [clears throat]

I'm already read with the Brown County Department of Health. Um, and my last sentence was we had very recently, as in week before last, got an RV with a there's the Blackwater running into the woods. Um, unfortunately, we run into this more times than we don't when we're dealing with a complaint on an RV. You've got a lot of RVs out here, RVs out here that we have no complaints on. My department, but the ones that we get complaints on, we typically find them illegally disposing of the waste.

And you said illegally. Illegally disposing of the waste. time. So, and Ernie, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I guess I'm going to. Sure. Go ahead. In those cases, uh, do you order some type of order of correction or I mean, what happens in those type of situations? Um, once again, IC code gives 5 to 15 days to rectify the problem. So that's what we give them is 5 to 15 days or we will unfortunately have to order even a broader u that's just that's just how we how we do it. Yes sir.

Silly question. Uh you come out I've got an RV. I've got the line running over the hill. Can't I just take the line and tuck it back up underneath the RV as if I'm going to drive it? And I've now the the last one that we have looked at, which was very recently in Van Beernum. That is exactly what we did. I actually walked with them and assisted with the capping of it. Um, but I mean, as soon as you leave, with that being said, as soon as I leave, they're going to probably run it back into the woods.

It It goes back to legislating morality. Like, you if if if we would all just be nice and do right, do the next nice thing. None none of these none of this bureaucracy would be necessary. You're exactly right. You're exactly right. So then in that situation, you would likely receive another complaint and then it would come back out and the health department would choose whether to like

Yeah, we would uh we would re revisit. With that being said, we would probably order a vacate. They refuse to vacay civil. We end up in court 12 14 months later. Uh welcome to our judicial system. Is that $15$20,000 [clears throat] in cost for the county per I mean would you think that that I cannot answer I I I really don't know the dollar it's not cheap

it's not cheap whatever whenever you have attorneys involved or an attorney involved you know at $400 to $800 an hour whatever they charge I'm not sure what they charge but it is not cheap for us to go to quote. So it almost be cheaper to put that towards a fund to actually fix the problem. Okay. I mean no not that it's your nothing that it's your decision. I'm just saying I'm not arguing that point at all. So in the meantime the mobile home sits there, the people live in it and the septic flows. Yes, sir.

Okay. We we've we've actually did our job when we order the vacade, they refuse to vacate and we start a civil case against them. Right. And that's basically all our department can do. Right. David, I got a question for you. If we had an ordinance that specified like they can't do a certain thing and the you know the resident does exactly what we said they can't do per the ordinance it would basically take the same course. Correct. Yes. Yes. I mean you

you end up in the same same you know you give them you know eviction or whatever or the le and then vacate or you end up in court trying to get him out. Correct. Okay. Keep in mind the vacate is not admission. Okay. Yeah, you're talking about rentals. Rental eviction medicates. Yeah. So, uh I don't have any more questions because I have a question for Kayla. Thank you. Thanks.

And Kayla, you're on deck. Um, I mean just obviously like the most pressing thing right now is like how do you even whether we're going to change the ordinance or anything that's not a tonight thing. So you you know you in the office needs to know like okay now what do we do or what are we supposed to tell people but so I guess

Andy had some of the definitions printed over here. So I was just like looking through the current ordinance trying to understand like is there a path that kind of like gives some guard rails beyond the health department requires this etc. Um and one of the things like so there's the definition of structure that says includes recreational vehicles installed on a site for more than 180 consecutive days. And just like searching the ordinance for the word structure. Yes, it's used a lot in the flood plane ordinance, but it is also talked about with like improvement location permits. And so what are those what is the requirement for when like a improvement location has to be issued

for a for residence or for a well accessory structure? Um I don't know. It just talks about like when we get back to where I guess ours. How many pages are our ordinance? Downloaded the most recent one. That was just a copy that she had printed from another This is our I'm pretty confident that this page came from our I mean our ordinance 400 pages. Yeah. Which one? The zoning ordinance. I'm taking a

Wait, I'm sorry. 100 is how many times? Yeah, let's give me a second to get my thoughts together. I was going off Andy's paper. Hey, you're right. Structure doesn't say that. You're somewhat. Okay, never mind. Structure doesn't say that. Andy's printed notes got me.

I was trying to find a way through the quagmire for the immediate term, but it sounds like no matter how they look at it, we're going to have to create an ordinance that you know the views and notes building the building. Anything else?

I mean, I guess I'm still What now? What do we do now? Yeah. If we're going to keep talking about this, I haven't joined Andy. We've got a five minute break. But if we're saying we're throwing our hands up tonight, well, I think we've done I The reason for the meeting that I understand was to gather information to listen to the public to see what what their thoughts were, what their concerns were, if any. And I think we've heard quite a bit of that. Um, I think it's incumbent upon us now to go back through and review a lot of this information that we've been provided by the staff, right? and uh decide where we want to go here if anybody right should be in another meeting

correct not tonight anyway and it also cannot be next month either unless you guys in between that is very long uh next month we've got one minor subdivision and three refs oh that's probably not doing anything other than docket items I don't think this one is it Okay. Something that needs to be on the calendar. It's just Okay. So, in the in the meantime, we don't have a policy.

I mean, I think the polic like you're still there's still the other departments like the health department. You could still give the answer of an RV is not an approved permanent dwelling under the Indiana building. Like you can still say that, but as far as like how long can it be parked, it doesn't seem like that. And I would encourage you to give a line interpretation on this residential statute, too. Maybe you already have. Okay. So, you're in agreement with him. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. All right. Oh, I think Yeah, that's what I say.

Up at the podium, please. [laughter] I'm not here to defend the campers and I am all enforce protection. Uh, I just want to tell you on Freely by a house and I remodeled it and there was [clears throat] no ever did I find a septic tank in that place. So I know this is a RV meeting. It's a different topic, but there are still older houses that have never had septics in the county

because I put the annuity in myself and there was no nothing but a pos. So you that's still a problem. Not as big of a problem as I was talking about. I just wanted to Yeah, I appreciate you pointing that out. it that was also relayed in some of the comments officer survey that we received and I' I've worked residential service in this county most of my life and never amazed it

yeah everything all around there ever was built in the 50 anyway and I I still do want to know what I was told that seven day camper We don't ask for an answer if I was lied to about that. You weren't lied. That was the policy that was that is policy. Right. And that's what we're Yes. That's what we're untangling now is that that was the policy that was being conveyed and was understood by the office, but as it's like delved into the ordinance that that isn't in the ordinance. So, it's not a lie, but it was what would you call it? A preference.

I mean, that was the that was [laughter] the policy that was being Oh, okay. Regardless, you can't use a a camper as a tourist home either. Well, no, that's not right. We didn't discuss that. We absolutely did. Yeah, but once you told me once you told me that we couldn't do that, I asked, why can't I do that? Okay, just get rid of the first. You're getting into more personnel issues. No, DJ. So, not me. I I don't think that part of the conversation is done. No, I was just asking.

I was just wondering what you call misunderstanding. I like one short. Okay. And we'll be the last one. Okay. So rather than make a quick decision about this,

we know [laughter and clears throat] we know we know this exists. There are lots of folks living in NRGs. So, let's if we quantify um a program on how to do this, how to qualify, how to make sure the septic's taken care of properly, register, you know, do all the stuff, the stuff about the shoots county guys have time to dig into that a bit because it went to the state level and they got garden bills on the side rails, they address noise, they address everything. And if we take care of the septic and we give people an opportunity to live less expensively until, you know, they can they do some other things or maybe that's it. You know, they have great great plans in there and great ways that it works. And uh I just think it's getting our whole country's going to need and just because Brown County is getting gentrified and you know uh what about the generational fies who have lived here since since I moved here 50 years ago you know they're not living this lifestyle and all that stuff but I I just I'll rush to a solution there. We take some time, maybe have a committee with with citizens and come up with things that are a little more compassionate and actually work and then the health department can do their job because we'll have you got to have this this is how you're having to haul away getting your bill from the uh the suber or the board of thought hauler uh documents. Yeah, it's a little bit of work, but I mean if that allows people to live on their property or live near their parents on their property in, you know, in an RV or camper. Well, Russ, I hear what you're saying, but you you you provided this information to us and what this is is this is the state of Oregon here is has really jumped out ahead of

the state of this is a state regulation that you're talking about, sir. Right. Okay. Well, and and Indiana has no such thing, and I don't see Indiana probably doing anything like this for quite some time. No, but that but it's the reason that it's gone to the state that it developed into the state. It's a it's a boilerplate idea. We don't have to jump off from here. I think we should jump off of fear and look at their logic and valid. What I'm saying is good luck here. I mean,

I I think his purpose was, hey, this is someone who's already invented the wheel that this worked for them that used this as a data point to to draw our own. And I I love that. I I I appreciate that. Um this is this is one of those things that in fact more, you know, more people than than you really [clears throat] think about and you know about. And again, I wish we lived in a place that when we found out our neighbors were in need, we could help. And instead of just call 911 or or pass an ordinance, it's the county does whack-a-ole. Yeah.

You know, right? Do we go back wall or do we do we need to find a verifiable path where people could live on their property? Right. And it's not when when we we passed the tiny house thing, everybody thought, "Oh my god, we're going to be over 100 tiny houses. How many have we got?" Eight, probably eight, 10,

you know, but but they have a rule they follow. And if we work this out, right, we can have so people can live on their property or next to their relative. By the way, the Oregon thing is a Morocci house. We mentioned that earlier. So, I think there are things we could do. I I hope you don't just rush through it. So, I want to reach out and thank you to the staff because they were great questions. It obviously uh elicited a response. We had more response over this than we did our comp plan survey. Um to [clears throat] the public that is here tonight and both listening online and and reading minutes later, [clears throat] this this board wants your opinion. Obviously, we we aren't trying to be kings or dictators here, but there are things that are in [clears throat] uh there are things that that are holes that are left open in our in our development code and we're trying to plug those one at a time. So, I appreciate you guys coming this evening and speaking. Like, it it does help. I mean, it's [clears throat] that's why we didn't just make a decision or rush to a decision. I said we need to we need to hear from people on this. So,

and we thank you very much for that. I did have a question uh for one member of the public who's willing to answer this question. I'm looking at you as a county commissioner as planning commission. Do you know where we're at with the comprehensive plan that was submitted to you? That's a question for

I'm sorry. That's a question for Tim Clark. He's the last has the oversight one is basically we break our break these activities up into that. Okay, that's my answer. All right, thanks. Don't talk there to the podium, please. I wear hearing aids. I need to hear you. Hey, can you yell at Ernie Reed to be quiet back there, too? I just I was going to take this opportunity to [clears throat] publicly call him out. Okay. Thank you.

Just a quick thing I was thinking about in Hendricks County. You can get on the website and they they have a [clears throat] very a page dedicated to how to properly dump sewage. They have I don't know if you have dump dump places in Hendricks County place you can go dump sewage but still educating the public could help some if people know there's a place to go dump the sewage if they know how to properly dispose of sewage. just having that page, it's it's not very expensive and that education could really help ease maybe some of the issue. And that's all I want to say. Thank you very much. That was good. So, next month we meet like a week earlier than normal next month or Yes.

What's the date on the next month? 18. 18th. And our is it our BCA? Is it the day after or the day before? Neither. It's the week after. We got So the the ABC meetings are going to stay the same throughout November and December as what's on our calendar. Our BCA meetings are going to have to change because we've got a conflict with the commissioners. And since we only have one physical room per night, we only have one virtual room per night, too, since we're on YouTube. So the BZA meetings, uh, we'll get those posted as soon as we know for sure.

Thank you. Commissioners are there. There's only three of them. There's seven of us. I think we can take easy math. I did ask if they can move their meetings, but I will do no. Oh, okay. But you try. Okay. You need a motion to adjourn. So, if so, I'll move. All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. And really, thank you everybody for coming.