Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

It doesn't fit the dilapidated definition.

Yeah, now it is. Okay. I like to call the meeting to order. Anything for update agenda? I probably should do the, about how Allison wants to try to reschedule the September Labor Day one, because she's trying to, you know, we want, she says she wants to reschedule because we're not doing the seventh, right? Because the office is closed. She's saying without a regional plan by the end of the year, we won't have a designated village center. And she's asking, can we reschedule? Because we only have to the end of the year, which is like maybe nine meetings.

I don't know how important that is. I thought there was an extension.

No, this is for something else. A regional plan. Designated village center. There's so many titles.

So you want to put in a meeting?

Yeah. So, okay. Okay. Yes, so if we don't have it on the 7th, I have a calendar. The next one? 14th? Yep, either we can do August 24th or September 14th. If you do September 14th, we're going to have three in a row.

I can't do August 24th, so.

September 14th?

I can't say until I look at my calendar.

Jeannie, how's September 14th?

I'm sure. Am I still on September 14th? You are. I told you.

It's September 31st.

You just made that up. But that's okay. Yes, I will be here September 14th.

Are you resigning? Yeah. Oh, wow. I thought you were staying to do the town plan with us. No. Great. I'm sorry. I tried.

She said no. Her term's up in September.

Yeah, and I'm not sure. I thought it was September 1st, but now it's 30th. I don't know. 31st. 31st. 31st.

Okay, so we're going to go for September 14th. I'll ask, do you want me to email Allison and see if that works for her? Mike? Probably.

Yeah. That's a good idea.

And then Bill can do the September 14th. He's also on Zoom.

Ozone, you do the 14th?

Yeah. Can you do the 14th, E.P.?

Do what on the 14th?

Another meeting because we're not doing Labor Day.

Oh. Okay.

I don't know if you caught it, but we need to do the regional plans.

And actually, I think, Annie, I think actually she was talking about that's why she couldn't make the meeting today, because the regional plan is is NVDA's plan and they're under the gun to get that finished before the end of the year. I don't think it's our plan that she has to have done by the end of the year. I think it's the regional plan, and that's where they're... Why she couldn't come?

The way I read it, I thought it was because we weren't. So she can't make that meeting on the 7th, so she wants to continue doing the town plan then, right? Right, right.

Okay, so she can't be here on... Okay, I get it. That's right, to do the NVDA. Yeah.

Okay. Okay, so we're going to do September 14th. Ozone, if you can make that one, that would be good. The other, okay, so I'll just go. Anything for public comment? Did I do that one already?

No.

All right. Oh, so the next one was the town of Charleston's planning commission letter. I just got a certified letter that they're having their town of Charleston is having their annual commission. public comment meeting for their town plan for Charleston, the 2026, they've got it. And I guess Mike was saying that it's like a courtesy letter.

It's required by the law, the town plan, the adoption.

So it's just saying if any of us wanted to go, it's September 8th. We have our own problems. So Allison, did she have anything for us? Really, she didn't send anything, Mike? No. Okay. So moving in the update with Bruce Bruce is he said there's no new permits since last meeting property on Derby street was mode and will not be target to remove. Lakeshore container owner is seeking legal advice and we'll have the property we survey to determine the owner of the two roads that flank property. I have redone the back of the permit application to be better guide to the permit process. We can review it next time.

That's awesome. So about the Derby Street. My suggestion to Bruce was to use the section of the bylaw that addressed burned, abandoned, and dilapidated structures. And it says, burned, abandoned, and dilapidated structures shall be removed. The property is secured in such a way that it is not a public safety hazard and the property cleared of all debris in a reasonable time upon notice of the zoning administrator. The definition of burned and abandoned and dilapidated is any building or structure that is unstable, collapsing, dangerous, or if residential in nature, uninhabitable, including the debris associated with such structures. I don't know what he said in his violation notice, but mowing the grass doesn't do that.

Joel, I read that today too. And I was going to bring it up at the meeting saying that what more can you say that that place doesn't look like.

But is the building... It's not falling in the road. It's not livable.

You can't live in it.

There's no running water. Have you been inside? Do you know that?

Come on, Mike.

I mean, I have been inside that house, and it needs work, but I can't say there's worse houses in town.

Well, then we shouldn't have given it a zoning violation to begin with.

Well, you know, this board has been pushing very hard on that. That has nothing to do with – I mean, I think there's a reality check on this that you can't tell a property owner just because the property –

Isn't it collapsing in the back? It's collapsed in the back.

They tore that part of the house off several years ago.

It's all kind of leaning down. I mean, it doesn't look like somebody's going to, they're not doing anything to it. They're just going to make us look at it for another 20 years. Okay. But it's not unsafe?

It's just because they... If it's... Yeah, well, I mean, that was the whole thing. I don't know why we pursued it to begin with then, because that's the only thing we have. It's being unsafe. Unstable. I mean, years ago when this came up before, we used the health officer instead of zoning, and we used it at open windows, and if they replaced the window... then that took care of that. It was boarded up for years and it was okay. But the House has, you know, I think the Planning Commission's feeling was that the House is meeting this. That was my understanding that the Planning Commission felt that the House met this definition of unstable, collapsing, dangerous, or uninhabitable. And if it's not that, then we shouldn't have issued the violations.

Can I say something? No. No, of course not. Why did we get involved in the first place? Because we're not an enforceable board anyways. Well, there's not a zoning administration. Zoning administration.

You can advise a zoning administration. And that's what he was doing. Okay. Okay. Is anybody complaining? I don't think so.

About the house on Derby Street?

No, but I just think it's a thing like you come into town and you see something like that, too. You know, I mean, just like that. But that's it looks unsafe.

I mean, what we did before was we had a contractor come in, look at the house and tell us whether it's about to fall into the road. And the contractor said no. But that was 15 years ago. So if you want to pursue this, you could ask them. I don't see it tilting. I mean, the burden of proof is on them. If the zoning administrator says, my feeling is if he gave him a violation and it said that the building or the structure is uninhabitable and dangerous or collapsing or whatever, the burden of proof is then on them to prove that he's wrong. It's not on us to prove that he's right. Mm-hmm. So I don't know what you want to do with that information, but it certainly looks a lot better now that the lawn is mowed. But that was, we didn't give a violation because they didn't mow the lawn.

So they, well, if they keep the lawn mowed, that would be nice.

That's, that's much better. I just assumed they trimmed the grass to look for the pins because, you know, they got to, the neighbor stole the property or whatever.

Yeah, that's what she said last time.

You got to clear that up before you can sell it, right?

Did we, does anybody know what exactly was said in the notice of zoning violation? Because that's what pertains here. No.

What the reply was? No. The violation was. The violation was.

If he said the violation is because it doesn't look good and you need to mow the grass, then that's taken care of. Right. But if he cited the section on burned, abandoned, dilapidated structures, mowing the grass doesn't do anything. No. I mean, we've heard word of mouth, but nothing in writing.

What are we using as justification? I mean, I'm playing devil's advocate here because I don't think that it's the town's job to go in and just tell people, we think your property is dilapidated, so you now need to prove that it's not. I don't think that's the town's job. You know, we have to have some real reason. And when you look at that structure, it might be ugly, but I can't say that it looks unstable or unsafe. Oh, okay. I mean, honestly, I mean, you have to tell me what about it. It's not leaning into the road. The window's been boarded up. There's nothing inherently unsafe about it.

Is one of the things in there livable?

No. Uninhabitable.

Yeah. Does it look like somebody's going to live in there anytime soon?

Uninhabitable might be.

Mice in the racks.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

That's fine.

I mean, if you had, I mean, I think it's a good to play devil's advocate on this. I mean, you don't want to go to court and lose. Right. But I mean, the average person looking at this house, what do they think of this house? What is the average, what is the man on the street? What is a reasonable person looking at this house? Could they conclude that we have enough justification to say that we think it's, is our conclusion, if the planning commission in the town, the zoning administrator concludes in his opinion that this violates this section of the law, are we unreasonable in making, is he being unreasonable? If he's not being unreasonable in that he in his opinion that it's uninhabitable, for instance, and he issues that, then the burden of proof becomes on them. But if the court were to say if we would go to court and the court says, well, you were not reasonable. It wasn't a reasonable decision on your part to say that this is uninhabitable in the first place. Then we lose.

Yeah, but aren't you proving it, showing pictures or anything?

Well, you can't go inside. It's like getting a search warrant. You can't just say, I don't like the person, I want a search warrant. You have to have reasonable suspicion. And that's what we're after here. Is it reasonable for us looking at that house? Is a reasonable person going to conclude that that might be unenable enough that I'm going to give a zoning violation? I know some Mike's point, you know, it's like it's standing straight up. I don't see the roof leaning in. I don't see it leaning, you know, so that gets rid of unstable, collapsing and dangerous. But if you go inside, Mike, you said you were inside. When were you inside?

Oh, probably I'm going to bet 10 years ago. Because I looked at buying it and then they wouldn't sell it because I wouldn't agree not to tear it down. But, I mean, it was an old house. It was full of a lot of old junky furniture, but I looked at way worse properties in town.

But Bruce has said that he's okay, right? What? Bruce has said that the zoning violation is done?

Yeah. Well, that's what his words were. No property on Derby Street was mowed and will not be target to remove. You're done. What was a nice conversation we all had. Wait till it comes up in another 10 years.

Unless they don't owe it next year, then you got to go back to it.

Or if it starts, I mean, if the building starts shifting or we really have some, I just, you know, as the town manager that's going to have to go and sell the select board on giving you money to try and do this lawsuit. I would not recommend it.

I don't even think it's worth it because the house is, it's not even, eventually somebody's going to, I mean, there's two older women that own it. One of them I think is dead.

One is dead. One is dead.

So the other one is, I don't know. Is it for sale? Are they putting it up for sale? No. No. No. What does she want to keep this house for? I don't know. To torture us.

I mean, my only problem now is why we issued a zoning violation. We talked about this. Why did we go through all the trouble of issuing a zoning violation if cutting the grass is going to take care of it?

Yeah, that was kind of weird. Cutting the grass.

I agree.

And you've got a no-mow thing anyways.

I mean, I would like to talk to the zoning administrator and ask him what he wrote for a note just for process. What did you tell him they had to do in order to get rid of that? I'd like to know. Right. If he's saying it's done.

Did he say that to them? I don't know. We'd be nice.

Mike, you don't have to actually recommend to the select board anything. You can just say, what the hell do you want to do with this? We have got a lot of complaints about this property.

Here's a thought. If we ever finish rewriting the zoning code, We might want to use this as an example of something that we want to have a way to address because it sounds like right now we don't really have a way to address it.

Well, like I say, the only way you could enforce this at this point, I guess, is you could either put the burden of proof on them, which is a fight, or you could have a contractor make them have a contractor come in and report to us in the buildings. You know, if it is unsafe and collapsing, we do want to know about it. Right.

My question is, who's the one that mowed the lawn either? Is it a relative that, you know, are they sending pictures back to the other woman? You know, like Does she really know what it looks like? Is she in a nursing home? We don't even know.

I don't know which of the sisters died.

But is it the power of attorney that answered the certified letter, you think? You know what I mean? It's ridiculous that they just talk to her on the phone.

I know that.

Oh, talk to her?

He talked to her multiple times on the phone. Because originally she said she was going to just put it up for sale. And then she decided to get somebody to go clean up the property, which is, you know, yes, they mowed, but they did clean up the property. I mean, if it looks better around it, it doesn't look overgrown and unkept anymore. Right.

Did they board up the broken windows?

I think there was only one broken window on that front porch.

That was at the last meeting.

You didn't hear that, Bruce? I think the way to go is to make them get a contract. Ultimately, I mean, we're sort of stuck if Bruce has already denied it or said it's not a conflict. But practically speaking, if you want to know whether the house is uninhabitable, get a contractor in there, a structural engineer. If you think if we have a reason, it comes back to, again, what do you think is reasonable in this situation?

They would pay for that, to have that?

I think we could make them pay for that. We could try. And then they'd get their own. What do they want to do with this? When I talked to these two sisters years ago, one didn't want to keep the property. Get rid of it. I'm tired of it. I don't want it anymore. The other was, no, we were grown. We were raised there. We want to hold on to it. Which one died? The one that wanted to get rid of it.

Obviously the one that wanted to keep it.

I guess that's, you know.

And then she's like in there.

It's not going to live in it.

And do they have any kids? I mean, where is this? Sell it. Who is this going to after they?

I wonder what we're valuing that property at now.

See, the last time we did a zoning thing about it was because the back of it was falling down. That's right.

We got that.

That was part of it. Yeah. And the windows were going in and out.

Well, we didn't have any evidence that kids were going in and out. No, we had animals. We didn't have to show that they were. We had to show that there was a potential for it. Which means animals can go in and out.

So they... Public safety hazard. They plywooded over the windows.

But that's a public safety hazard. I mean, it does say in here that it's unstable. Dangerous. It says dangerous. That's public safety.

I was looking back at some paperwork, and Nick sent them a warning later letter as well, when he was working for us. And then so what Bruce, it's the second one.

But they will the launch. So I guess it's okay.

Oh, hey, I have the one the original one. First one, the paper as a select board had any info about this at all.

Only when it's come up to the select board before. I don't think there's been anything currently. So what is there?

We're endless. Ooh. Way to go. No names. What's the last?

No names.

What's the address? Oh, there's names. Next time we run into something like this, why don't we start a file? And all the stuff that we've talked about, all the things that were correspondence and reference to something like this. And then we can refer to that right now. We don't remember what we said. I mean, we don't have anything in front of us right now. What said who said what and when when it was said. And, you know, we were kind of sloppy in our paperwork. We should have a file, we should have a file, we should right from the beginning, so that we could pull the file out and say, yeah, this is what we said. And this is what we were going to do. And we don't do that. But we do we have something, we have the zoning administrators notice a violation. But it's not in a file, but we have it as far as it goes with us. It's in his hands.

Right. It is in his hands.

We have nothing to say about it now. It's in Bruce's hands.

It's in Bruce's hands, and he has said that he's dropping the case is solved.

Well, I don't know if that's exactly. Well, when I'll be talking to him personally.

Take this up at your next meeting. You have a decision on your part. That's right.

Absolutely. Is it OK to say what they in public? Yes. OK, so their house, it's thirty seven thousand five hundred dollars. The land is thirty five thousand and the house is nineteen hundred.

1900 is the building.

And the land is 35,600. What did that tell you?

The value of the house is 1900.

1900 dollars. Well, that just barely pays for the plywood on that.

I think if you really wanted to push it and a select board, I think it's up to the select board because they're the ones, as Mike has pointed out, if we have to go, we need to select board to OK spending money for an attorney. You don't want to do that unless you're going to win. So I think you need to talk to Bruce some more and hash this over and get the board involved.

I think you need a stronger case because otherwise I don't think this is going anywhere.

I think you need a stronger case.

Because I can pull up pictures of a dozen houses in town that look just as bad as this one, and we're not going after those.

Well, yeah, I think we do need a stronger case. I think we probably would have a stronger case if we wanted to. But if the assessor went in that house, he assessed that house at $1,900.

That's uninhabitable.

I'm sorry.

That is like, that's a storage unit, for God's sakes.

That's not even that. I know. But I think Mike's right. I think we need a stronger, we need to build a stronger case.

Maybe we'll have a big winter and the roof will cave in.

Yeah. What is the situation with the roof of that house? I have no idea. As you know, no roof, no house. That's right.

Maybe they've got a person there holding it up.

You go by it. Well, the roof came in the back. That's been taken care of. It's been torn down.

Yeah, I think you should just postpone discussion until the next meeting and collect more information.

Okay, we'll take that up next meeting. So next is approved minutes of the previous meeting. Everybody read the minutes? I just want to say, Katie, do you...

transcript that somehow because i read it i go how does she remember all of that oh right she reads it she then she goes back i need to look back on amazing you do such a good job thank you i appreciate it lovely thing to have to go through a meeting twice oh my god when i was on the bright snowmobile club and we didn't have this and i was the secretary he did that tape recorder and half an hour before the meeting

as a when i was a reporter before i started this job i absolutely refused i did that one time i recorded i said i am not going to get me twice it's gonna happen because i was like unless you went home that night and did it there was no way you were going to remember no way there's so many technical words you have to do yeah 24 hours you have to yeah yeah i can't read my handwriting after 24 hours exactly

I can't even mine after five.

All right. So we have other business. Anybody. We approve them. Oh, we had right. Sorry. I'm in motion.

Oh, you did. Sorry. I thought.

I'll second it.

All in favor.

Aye.

And then now it's other business. Anything. No. We're good. We're good. I have a motion to adjourn.

I'll make a motion to adjourn.

Second.

You guys are going to be leaving forever because I'm not here to adjourn.

That was a quick one.

I knew it would be because I was...