Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Prices go down. Hell no. Join the club. Yeah. Join the club. Yeah. I'll trade I'll let you have pay mine, too. Mine or not? Okay. I'm going to bring the meeting to order. Um, first up is update agenda. Do we have anything? Good. Um, I'm going to go to public comment because we have a visitor here. Is

I just have a couple of questions. Okay. Yeah. Now, on my property out on the 10 mile square road, I put up a mother-in-law's what's called a mother-in-law's apartment, take care of my father-in-law. Now, according to the zoning at that time, I was restricted on square footage that I could put there. It was a certain percentage of whatever mine was or 500 square feet or something like that. I don't know exactly what it was. How long ago was that? Eight years ago.

There's I don't believe there's anything in our bylaws now that even even talks about that. Oh, I might be wrong, but I don't remember right now if there was any been changed. No, I I was a zoning administrator at that time, so I dealt with this and uh I don't remember the details, but we could clear look it up pretty easy, but they applied for normally you can't have more than one dwelling on a property.

But the law changed a while ago to allow suppose sub alleged mother-in-law apartments, like, you know, you got to have your mother-in-law move in with you. they let you do that and skirt some of the normal rules to do it. And so that was the law then and so it was a lot of what Dave and Linda wanted to do was completely legal and uh they have a permit for it. Um and I guess I'm not I'm getting ahead of myself. This is not what Dave was talking about actually. He was talking well the history of that.

Yeah. What I what I'm trying to find out is I've got my daughter living there right now. She's getting married this weekend. They can't find a house in Pond anywhere. I want to know what I have to do to expand that. So, it's got enough livable space for them if they happen to want to live there and have kids. Do I have to break up my land to to do that? So what I not zoning I don't know what I um

what I had mentioned to Dave when I saw him earlier today was uh and invited him to the meeting was that this is kind of precisely what act 181 is talking about being able to normally you can only have one principal dwelling on a lot except if it's a mother-in-law apartment. Act 181, to my understanding, and I I I I I thought Allison was going to be here tonight. Um, but Act 181 says we can't keep anybody from having five dwelling units on an acre of property. And this is five dwelling units on an acre of property.

Now, now when you think about that, that doesn't mean five lots. you still maintain your minimum lot size, but I guess the idea is to maybe condominiumize or something or have a multi-unit dwelling. But if you're if you're my understanding is if you're a single property owner and you have uh your own house, you could construct a multi-unit dwelling uh on your property even though it might not otherwise be allowed. That's what act that's act 181 is trying to address this housing shortage. There's no housing available. So this would allow people to do that. So I think what Dave's what I'm s I and again I wish Allison were here to elaborate but my understanding is that we'll change we'll be changing the zoning and we'll be taking out that only one principal dwelling per lot. I mean, you could even have, to my understanding, you could have four cabin type things or four structures, four dwelling units. You could have four dwelling units, you know, if you've got the room, they still have to meet setbacks.

They still have to meet setbacks and everything, but you could have any construction you want um is is the way I think this is going to work. But we we have to change the zoning. And and Allison was supposed to come tonight with this guy Kevin McCarthy to talk about uh how this would work. And the guy was Kevin No, I'm sorry. They're they're trying to sell 47 Main Street, which I think is Mike Clark's property. No. Is that Kyle Forest next door? The one that they're taking apart. Kyle Forest. It's the It's the old property owned by the tribe, right?

It's the old property owned by the tribe, right? Yeah. Right. So, they want This is the Hi, Mike. How you doing? Good. What are you doing here? On vacation. Teresa called me and said somebody has to run the run the the recording of the meeting. Oh, no. I'm sorry. So, uh, is he going to be able to in line the property to the house that he's already got there? The M That's what we were hoping. That's why we have to we got to ask. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I was Yeah. I haven't heard an answer yet. Well, that's that's what he was saying. He was hoping that Allison would be here with this Kevin because they're the ones that it's the state thing. Anyways,

you need a developer. You need somebody to develop this to, you know, most homeowners are not going to be able to carry out a project like this. You know, it's it's got to be somebody that's got to be I mean, maybe they can. I don't know. But seems to me you're going to need some they're going to need somebody who can know how to develop and a property to do this. I don't really I I really don't know. I'm really hoping that Allison would be here. I'm sorry. But that is the general that is the general idea as far as I know. I I know that when you start adding more bedrooms, the septic system is going to be affected. So you have Well, in his case, it's not.

I have the septic and everything is already, right? But so I you But your his is yours is a different situation because it's two buildings, which I guess you're on the same piece of land, but until nice to own all the land, right? Right. Well, and but you're saying, Joel, that you could actually put like three cabins. It wouldn't have to be multi. I I think you don't know. I think once once this

once we learn more about this and change our zoning, I think the new zoning the new zoning law would allow Dave to just proceed as if it's a separate dwelling and on his property without having to subdivide. He could subdivide the property. That's up to him, right? If he has enough land. I believe he does. I I I I I think it's it's either two or five. Who's here? Allison's here. All right. That's Yeah, we have a seat right for you. Perfect. Now we can I agree. Uh Bo,

yes. Would it be right for him then to if he wants to move forward with this is just to apply for a permit? No, not at this not at this point. Allison, uh how you doing? Are you okay? I mean, how run moose on the way up? No. I mean, how serious are you in wanting to do this? Well, I'm like you'd like to have an answer. Yeah, I'd like to have an answer so I can move forward. I'm not I'm not going to apply for any permits or anything like that unless I have a definite answer of yes, you can do this, but we need to know how you're going to do it. Separate building attached building. It's a separate attach a building to what standard?

You're attach building. You're adding on to your property. Well, it's definitely requires a permit. That correct. Regardless of anything else, I understand that that requires a permit. So, I don't want Allison is here to answer our question. Whatever it is, and then have you guys say, "Well, you can't do that." No, I understand. He's got a property and he's got he's got a little area like a mother-in-law thing, but he wants to add on to that, but it's two bu two buildings on one lot.

So, Allison, I was trying to explain that that this might be totally appropriate for what we're talking about with having more than one one dwelling per lot. Yep. Yep. Yep. So, does your zoning currently because I think I remember seeing like one principal used per lot or something like that, right? So, if you were to move remove that restriction, um the only thing is that I'm wondering if it really is is the accessory dwelling unit in the separate structure or Yes. Yeah. It's two separate build two separate two separate houses.

Okay. So, if you're adding to the accessory dwelling unit, um, what what are you adding? I'm basically just going to double the size of it. I see. Is it still going to be an accessory dwelling unit?

A single address, a single ADU. So, the definition of an ADU was amended, and I can't remember if this happened in the home act or act 181, but um it used to be that an ADU was either a single bedroom or a studio that's a pertinent to um a owner occupied dwelling. And now there is no limit that is specified in the bedrooms. It's just

it's a distinct living unit that is a pertinent to the other to the owner occupied structure. So I by adding to it I think it would still be considered an accessory dwelling unit and it's already there. So, if I may, as prior zoning administrator, this issue first came up at another place that I dealt with at Maxwell's at the curves there just below you guys. if if they had a trailer uh that was used as a secondary accessory apartment and that was fine and then they didn't have to use that anymore and they wondered if they could use it on a temporary basis if people came to visit and I said yeah that's yeah I mean just they can't just use it as a dwelling if you had relatives come for a wedding yeah fine if you had your situation Dave I would think that I don't think the town's going to get totally upset if that just keeps on going the way you're doing it. If it's you're looking for housing as zoning administrator, I can tell you that I wouldn't take issue with it. I just say, you know, I'm not the zoning administrator, but I just say, yeah, keep doing what you're doing and when new zoning comes out, we'll you'll be okay.

I think is would you would you agree you Allison? Is that how you'd see it? Well, the other thing that I think that has gone away in statute, it used to be that if a se a separate structure with the accessory dwelling unit um contain the accessory dwelling unit, then I think it was subjected to conditional use. I don't think that's in statute anymore. So, even if it's in your regulations, it's not in ours, I'm pretty sure. Okay. So, I guess what I'm saying is just by adding to it, it doesn't doesn't change the fact that it's still an accessory dwelling. Again, I would agree.

And it's it's a pertinent to the owner occupied dwelling. So, I think that the limit of one principal use per lot would not apply here because it would be considered a necessary volume. There might be many other instances where getting rid of that restriction would make a lot of sense, particularly in the Bish, but this might not be one. It's part of the revisions to the bylaw to take out the section on one principal dwelling per lot. Yeah.

What do we agree on? Did we well or what are we saying today? I just have to wait until you guys change the zoning laws. Well, there's no there's no vi there's no violation is what I would say. There's no violation here. What you're doing is not violating the zoning bylaws right now. If you were to move a permanent person into that thing, that would be different at this point. But I don't know given that the way the the law is changing. I'm not sure the town would pursue a violation even if there was one. It's an excessive building. I don't see a problem with adding on to it. You're you're going to get a building permit

and you're adding to an an existing building. I I I don't see how we can stop you from doing that. Well, that's that's perfectly fine. Yeah. So, he just has to do the permit. Do the permit process. That's all. And and the thing with the state is after you go over so many bedrooms, depending on how your septic system was put in years ago for so many bedrooms, if you exceed that, you're going to have to put in a bigger tank. And that's not us. That would be the state. That's a state. You'll have to you'll have to go with the state. I have I have a thousand gallon tank there right now. Thousand gallons good for four bedrooms. Well, there won't be four bedrooms. That that does that take care of the accessory building only?

Yes. Then you're all set because I each building has its own set. Okay. Yeah. Then you're you're fine. The only thing the state made me do is drill a wall because you can't have two buildings on a spring. Y basically if I just apply for permits, I should be I see no I see no problem. That answers my questions. All right. Good. You can go now. Thank you very much. We like it when somebody wants to spend money in our town. Enough money. Thank you. So, we'll just continue with Allison. Um

I We did get the survey. Everybody got the survey email. We just printed them, too. So, we have a new copy. Um I actually made special paper copies that are condensed down to f four pages. Um, and I apologize for being late. I stopped at the property on 47 Maine to check it out. Okay. Because I was also looking for opportunities for adaptive reuse and retrofit. And this is really concise. Yeah. Yeah, that was the idea. He has spoken to you, hasn't he? Yeah, I met with

Yeah. And um I gave him information on the Vermont Housing Improvement Program. Um, oh, there's two more. Yeah. Whoops. Oops. Sorry. Maybe I was supposed to pass them back. Oh, yeah. And I Here's an extra one, too. Um, they got one. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. You got one? Yeah. Okay. He's got one, too. Okay. Both kinds. Yeah. Yeah. So, the one that you printed off from um is is the one that you

from Google Forms. And then I also created some postcards. They're in here. Is this the one that we're going to give to the people? The the this condent like all like or this this you can and I cut these I made these in house. These would actually be postcards. And um they would fit like four up on an 8 and 1 half by 11 sheet. And um Oh, sorry.

All right. And I'll have a few more here for people to check out. And then um the other side um the mailing label goes there. But this I've already tested the QR code and it takes you to the Google forms. So um because you have $500 in your budget to print Oh, that's um print postcards. Yeah. Um, so and if we need to adjust that or whatever, but um, you know, this would I think this might be the cheapest way to get it out. But then you would print extra copies of these and um, distribute them to people who know do not do internet. Yeah.

And then we'd have to designate a place to get the paper. So we could put them in front in the different town town hall. Town hall. put some in my store. Yeah. Couple of the businesses. Yeah. Three branches. Yeah. With the survey. Yeah. Yeah. The survey. Yeah. Yeah. For the paper cup. Yeah. Yeah. Now, is it is this in stone or or can any change? No. This is revised. Okay. This is a good one. I I I had I I didn't attend the last meeting, but I did watch it when you guys were talking. And I I there was one question and and I don't know how you feel about it but I had one question I thought might be revalent as how is people think the town is going in the right direction.

Uhhuh. And I I I thought one of the questions could be are you happy how town government is operating? Are they are they looking forward in the future far enough is to let the town select board know the planning board know whether or not the town feels that we're doing the right thing for them. Okay. And I I think that would be a good a good question to ask if if they're happy with what we are doing for them. Okay. and if they have any suggestions and and I see where you can write in something

uh that would help you know to direct us planning board, water board, sewer board, uh select board as to some things that we're we're missing and and we're not really forgetting something that they they feel that they're left out. Okay. And I think the only thing with that, Mark, is they have to know what it is we're doing before they can say whether they like what we're doing. Do they Yeah. Yeah, that and that's that's the problem now. I mean, you you hear it on well, you know, blah blah blah. Well, and I hear it and I hear it, too. Go to a meeting because unless you you you have no idea what we're you're talking or what we're talking about. So, putting that in here,

but in the you could ask them in the past, are you happy going moving forward and and and town government? I I think it's an important question to ask. and and whether or not we put it in here, that's totally up to the board here. But I I wanted to get your feeling and is that something that you've ever seen in some of the surveys? I've I've seen it. Um um you think it's revalent to what we're doing?

What would you do with the information? Well, it would let us know if they're happy with what how we're progressing here as a town and with town government and Right. But um what if they said no, they were extremely unhappy. What would you do? Tell us why. What what you think we're doing wrong? Write it write a short little sentence. Uhhuh. What if I mean I mean I don't want to step on anybody's shoes here. I just I just thought it was was an important question to find out if they're really happy with us,

right? Um I'm just wondering if I don't think it's something that lends itself to yes or no. I mean, so what if you just had a um there is a question at the end.

Um 26 is the question that brought this up. Exactly. Um because we've you know we've given people opportunities to provide other open-ended responses around business or right nothing about town government about the local economy. So, I think by doing that though, I think there's going to be a lot of name dropping on this where somebody Oh, yeah. Well, you know, hope did this and Oh, I can see it. I've been there. To agree with that.

What's that? I said I do tend to agree with that. I don't know. I don't know that you would get any usable data I if you if you said I mean if you told them what it is we're doing which is what pursuing I mean what's the town plan going to say what's the plan going to be if you said the plan the plan is to pursue an outdoor recreational economy to develop our economy do you agree with that would make more sense that would because that's the direction that my understanding is that we're what we're trying to do here right now,

right? That's what we're is that but how many people really understand that I mean we did have the big meetings with everything and so I hope that people aren't surprised. I mean the you know the Paul Castello's group that's what came out of that that's what we've been pursuing with the grants the particular kinds of grants that we've been asking for. So if people don't want to do that anymore it would be good to know as long as they're not pursuing get a big electronics plant here. It it it's it's just that we're we're pursuing this this this vision here and the vision is only going to get so much money from grants which means that the town taxpayers are going to have to foot the bill the rest of it. So are they in favor of what we're doing here because it's going to affect everybody?

Well, I think are do you want do you want us to pursue? Well, I think this was already voted to do so to Right. I mean, next break. I I mean, you could reinfor you could say, "Do you want sidewalks, right?" I mean, our downtown revitalization grant request is based on sidewalks and developing, revitalizing the downtown.

I certainly don't need that intent to be p the rug to be pulled under us if we once we've gotten this far along that path. So, I'm always a little nervous when you ask people, "What do you want?" If they come up with something, would we changed our mind? Sorry. It's just a little fear I have sometimes with the

I'm I'm just looking at at the dollar value of what's coming and and and people have a tendency when they see their taxes rise. Well, perfect example is the assessment that just happened. I mean, everybody's upset over the assessment. They don't understand it, but they're all upset about it. Most most people. Uh, so now you're going to be doing all this spending here and doing these things that we have a vision of that's going to benefit the town. Do they are they feeling the same way as we do? I mean, I I I would just I know some of these questions will answer that.

But the thing is, we're not the town plan doesn't spend any money. It is a vision. This is just but some of the things in the plan will. Right. But at that point, you know, you go to the voters and either they pass the budget or they don't. Yeah. You know, if they're unhappy with it at that point, they just don't allocate the money to it.

I'm sorry I opened up a can of worms here. But keep keep in mind that your scope of work also includes two public outreach events that should be very well publicized. And the conversations about things like the assessment needs to be more of like a substantive conversation. And if you just had like a question on the on a survey where people are just checking boxes and they say, "Well, how do you feel about your your income tax, your property taxes going up?" They're they're all going to check. No,

of course. So, but if if we were to include some information about, you know, what we heard, what is the vision and these are the projects we have in the queue and this is how we're paying for it. And then we also include in those presentations about like the property assessments and why it doesn't actually mean your taxes are going up. Yeah. Because all the boats are going up, you know, in our tide is rising. But I disagree with you there. Okay? Because the property taxes are all going up as assessments

and we cannot control the state school tax and that is according to the assessment. So that is going to raise everybody's property taxes. Okay. But I mean the the point here is that the projects that you have identified already, you've identified a strategy for pain and we can continue to talk in those public outreach sessions and I think do it in a more qualitative way rather than just put something on a piece of paper because if somebody has their mindset that they're against all property like tax increases, they're just going to check no anyway. And and there's going to there's not

you're only going to have that percentage. Yeah. And you're not going to have any any quality conversations with them.

You know, property taxes when we ask voters in the past for uh money to do projects like the municipal building when we did that project. Property taxes are a way of that people express their willingness to spend some money of their own to contribute to the public good. That's what property taxes are. I mean basically and if we did these these projects that we do are largely grantf funded. So it's not like any project we do if we did a downtown revitalization project that's not going to be paid by taxpayers. They're going to pay hopefully 1/if of the cost or something like that. So,

which is still which is still a cost. Which is still a cost, but that we go to the voters and we say, "Do you want us to raise that money on your property by taxing your property in order to do this project?" And if they say no, we don't do the project, right? No, I just they say yes, then we do the project and people just agree to, you know, you it's nice to let people know what's going on and try keep them informed and

and and let let them have some somewhat of a say in the whole that's why we go to the voters for any significant amount of money to I mean these grants require matches. So we go to the voters and say, you know, will you raise this much? Let us raise this much money in taxes as a match to the bigger grants. And we've done a lot of projects that way. So Oh, absolutely.

And the voters rarely say no. I mean, you know, even when we did the greater a couple years ago, you know, that was that was controversial. You know, people, oh, we don't want to spend that money. But they passed it. You know, they need that the roads have to get taken care of and There there's a cost for that. Okay. Just that just had a question and it's a good it's a good discussion.

It's it's an important discussion. I think that we need to be sensitive to it in our two public outreach sessions and um you know we continue to make you know sure that we can answer budget questions and and do it in a more qualitative way so that if you do have naysayers showing up then maybe there's a chance that you can get them to come around. Yeah. But um you're not going to change a naysayers's mind here. No. No. because nobody knows that they're a naysayer. Yeah. Well, and that's and that's what happens at town meeting. You know, they're all up in arms and blah blah

and they're up in arms. He said, "No, nobody says anything against it." And then and at the end of the meeting, they're all bitching anyway. Yeah. He's like, "Well, you didn't stand up and say anything, so there you are." So, um I am proposing that we do a like give to the end of the month next month for survey responses. Um I don't know who the contact is if they somebody has a question about this. So the end of um September 30th.

Yeah. And so we'd have to I also looked at our original deadline if I can find it. I'll just leave these here so you guys can Here we go. So I was thinking um so complete no later than um you know com compile the results would be October 15th and then the community meeting number one on economic development um push that to the end of October.

Yeah. So that we would have the survey responses. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes perfect sense. But the survey you're doing end of uh 9:30 and so then we got two weeks to compile response and produce reports. So there we're going to have to make the copies of this survey for the people like to put in the businesses. Yeah. Right away, right? You know, have to have three here. You want some? We'll go to some of and and there's a big piece of missing information in there because we don't have a contact. Oh, right here. Um, and we also don't have any instructions for where they get returned.

Well, they should probably just be returned to the town clerk's office, but you want to check with Teresa. Maybe have to put a little sign or something. Well, I think she Are you I think she's going to reprint them. Am I out of line by saying they could return them at the library that's open every day? Well, they're not open every day. They're not open every day. Yeah, but they're open Friday in the town hall, isn't it? But um what if you you could have multiple dropboxes throughout town, right? So they could could they drop them off in the Isn't there like a box? A money drop downstairs, right? They drop off in a drop off box. Yeah. Yep.

Or bring them up or take them to the library. Yeah. So, how you going to Oh, she's putting it on that paper right there. Yeah, she's this. It's I would have to revise. Might want to check with the librarian. I don't want Well, it's I don't think they're gonna I don't think she'd have a problem with it, but Well, it's just a matter of collecting them and she's going to come up here anyways. Yeah. I mean, I mean, once once this this the last day of the survey, they can bring what they have down in the library and bring them up here or bring them as they got them. Yeah. And and who is our contact?

Is it Mike? And was that like a yay? Why not? Why not somebody on the planning commission? Right. Yeah. I Okay. All right, Annie. Thank you. So, my contact number? Yeah. Or email? Probably contact would be better. Okay. I'm going to do that. 802. Uhhuh. 7234342.

4342. I need need to write this. Read this back to you just to make sure. 8027234342. Okay. Better that way. Okay. So, what I'm thinking is we have like a little call out box or something in here and then we'll have the drop locations and then maybe if there if there's a if if there's a question

okay so I will I will rework that. So, what about and I realize this this is also going out to just um not necessarily people that live here, just land owners or whatever. So, maybe they they could mail it back if they're not here. Well, this say they leave and just they would also get go online.

Yeah, that's true. Okay. Sorry. Yep. So, um this has um this has the same and I've just got a placeholder there for the contact information, but um over here would be the mailing. Oh, goodness. Um I can get um prices for printing. Oh, the this is like a really really important thing. I stole this photo. I do not have a authority to use it. So, I need photo. A photo. Mike probably has some photos. What is the photo? I can't see what it is.

It's a It's a It's a beautiful f. Okay. It's a beautiful photo of the shoreline of Island Pond with foliage in the background and I just pulled it off the internet, but I am sure that I do not have authority to use this. So, if you I have I have I have uh photos we can use. I have photographers who have given me authority to use their stuff.

Awesome. Awesome. So, if you can just email me those, I will finalize this um mechanical and I'll put your contact information as well. And then if I could get counts for um the grand list and the um the voter checklist. The voter list and then I can get quotes for printing. And we should probably make posters, too. Put them all around town and have this. Good idea. So, because then um I did test it with a with a phone. It does work.

Yeah. So, if anybody buys any materials for this, keep track because it covered by the grant, I believe. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And so, I I mean, I can um I can see if I can get good pricing through Canva. Oh, I can probably get you way better pricing than that. Pardon? I can probably get way better pricing than that. I do all the printing for all the the events and everything in town. So, okay. I have I have people. Okay. But that's but that's good because we're supposed to competitively competitively bid out these services. So, at least we have

Yeah, that would that would show that we did our due diligence. So, I could get a a few quotes on my end and then if you get some quotes and then then we'll just get this done. Um, the other thing is I sent this link out to you all just to take and work through it in case you found any bugs. Like I found a few typos. I I found I found them and I cleaned them up, but I didn't get one. Oh, this Oh, the hard link. The the email. The email. I didn't get an email. Yeah. Everybody was on it. It was on web mail. Email. Well,

but also if you do this too, you can also get on my emails yet. I I I'm looking. I I did not get anything. So, you could also try it on your phone, too, and see if that works for you. Okay, got it. Are any of the answers required? No, I didn't get that. But I know I just did this. You can submit a completely blank questionnaire. You could I don't I mean I don't know why somebody would do that

to see if they could. You might have a few people who do that, but I think that most people are genuinely if they're going to get online because they want to do it. That's right. Want to do it. Yeah. Otherwise, they'll just skip, you know. I mean, we also you might have some people who will skip a bunch of questions and that's fine. That happens all the time. I don't think that's me anymore. So, it is. web mail. Is that That's what I was asking you.

Is that a different way again? Because she went select for something. Yeah. I I thought you said that it I didn't realize it went on there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Should I update the my email contact for you then? No, it's fine. I Well, I'll check, but I think it's fine. Tell the email account. Yeah. Right. So, um, even though the survey is live right now, I think we need to set an internal deadline of making it officially alive, like maybe by the end of the week once we have the postcards and the flyers ready to go. Does that make sense?

Does to me. Did you get that? so that it goes into the minutes Friday. Is that going to be enough time to get all this? Um, I don't know that it that those might take a couple of extra days to get everything printed and mailed, but um we could certainly get the flyers out and we could also start putting the link out on front porch forum. We'll have some um cut and paste messages that people can use on on their front porch forum. I gonna be able to talk to these people for crit stuff or Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to get Mike needs to answer your question.

Yeah. So, I'm going to get some quotes and he's going to get and then whoever he says he's going to get the better quote, but at least we'll have shown that we did our homework. Yep. So, so we need do we need a motion to go forward on this? Sure. What size is your postcard, Alison? Pardon? What size is the postcard? It is um 5 and a half by four and a quarter. Okay. Um yeah, a motion. Do we need to make a motion to move forward on this? Joel, do you think we need a motion to move forward? To to do exactly what? I don't know. Mike, you want me to send you a picture of that postcard? Yeah. Yeah.

Doing everything that we're doing. I guess the we need a motion. My question was, do we need a motion to move forward on these postcards and everything so that we can get it done by the end of the week? I'm more concerned with even if you make a motion, who's going to do what? Um, you know, making a motion doesn't make things happen. You have to assign the task to somebody. Somebody's got to do the posters. Who's doing the posters? Who's doing the flyers? Who's

I can I can do the flyers. Um, and I can send them to you. Um, it'll have the same copy that goes on the postcard. Um, and I'm sorry, I I didn't know that. Um, I didn't think to email the mechanical for the postcard. Um, but yeah, and then I can make the changes to the hard copy of the survey and then also send out some cut and paste text to everybody who has a front porch forum account.

So you can start pushing that out on front porch forum. Uh so I guess the motion would be to to uh officially as you said Allison the official start date for the survey is Friday. That would be the motion or such and such a date. So that Yeah. And do you want them returned? Do you want it included in there when they're supposed to be returned? Um already it says that we want them back by the 30th. 30th. Yeah, I got that. All right. Okay. People do it electronically to save some time for, you know, re keying.

No guarantees. So Mark, there's your motion. Make that motion. I make that motion. Okay. What she said. I'll second it. Who's taking the minutes here? Katie. Oh, she'll take she'll do them later. Yeah. Oh, okay. You want to do a motion? Yeah, you already did. That's it. Yeah. Make a motion and we move forward uh uh for the flyers and everything for Friday. Okay. Uh and uh naturally, we're going to get monies from uh the grant to pay for all this, right?

So, uh yeah, I I say that we start we start moving here. Okay. So, second, you know, second. All in favor? I I I mean, we drag our feet to another meeting and it's just going to delay this. All right. So, do we want to assign different things here now if we're going to get the material within a week to start the posters, putting the posters out, different businesses? Well, this this sign it up, this survey here, is that going to be done here or is that going to be done at the printers? Oh, we can print that on the copy. Okay. Probably way cheaper. Yeah. As long as I fix it. No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You

Yeah. Yeah. Your new one. I could uh I don't want to expect Teresa, but uh I'm willing to take some and bring them here, there, and everywhere. Oh, I'll take Yes. Okay. So, posters or the the surveys, right? The surveys. What what would be nice is to have a motion in the minutes that says the planning commission approved the survey separately from everything else as submitted tonight. If if we're at that stage with there's a few there's a what things are what things do you need to change on um the contact information and already discussed.

Yeah. and the instructions for returning. We have to have the places. Yeah. Which would be the library, the town hall. Do we have to check with the library first? No, I don't think so. Town Hall. So, you'd make the motion pending approved edits to and then specify them. No, that's they're talking the drop off after they've done the survey, right? Where the places that they're dropping them off. Library, Town Hall, Genies, Kingdom, the businesses, right? I think the surveys. No, after they're done. Oh, after they filled them out. Where are they going to get them? Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, that's that we are. Yes, that would be the business like I would drop them off at

You're saying like the library town hall? Well, town hall. Yeah. Goulette's garage. I would drop some off there. Uh the the drop off a pile of them at the at the Mark Kingdom Market. I mean, a lot of people go there. Yeah. Okay. Uh, man, Ace Hardware, Essex House. We could put a few at the Essex House. American Legion. Yeah. I mean, I could I could I could I could take care of that. Pass them out. Right. So, Okay. And I'll take a few. Okay. I'll take I mean, I'll I'll bring some to So, so, um, so they you're all are taking care of the distri distribution. So, when they're ready, somebody call me and I'll come pick them up and I'll send me the the final file, Allison. I can print them.

Sure. Sure. Okay. And are you back tomorrow? Yes. Yes. Okay. So, so Joel, you'd like me to make a motion then that we to approve the survey approve the survey that we have in front of us pending the changes approved con considering the changes that we discussed right at the meeting. There you go. Uh so so that we can move forward and having them printed and passed out. Right. That's my motion. I'll take them in. All in favor? I Okay, we got that out of the way. All right. Thank you.

Is there anything else? So, you're going to send Mike the revised survey? Yep. And he'll forward it on to Teresa so that we can I can print it right from here. I can Is it multiple pages? Is it two pages? It's just two pages on both sides. Yeah. Yeah. We can I mean our our copier there can automatically staple them and all of that. So somebody doesn't have to sit and do that. Okay. And then have Teresa call me when they're ready and I'll I'll pick up the load of them and I'll start passing them out. Well, if everybody Friday there won't be anybody here. So Oh, that's right. Friday. I will be I'll be there Friday. All right. Well, call me Mike when I'm ready.

I come up on Thursday. Okay. Because Friday night we're I'm doing the um welcome wagon in Newport. Did I go to the Legion on Friday? So I'll drop a pile of them off there. Oh yes. Okay. So tomorrow I'm going to start researching costs for the postcards, too. And I need to get um a a legal photograph that's not going to get me into trouble. Yeah, Mike's going to do that. Okay. Yeah, I got no problem with that. Yeah, perfect. I I sent him this one so he could when you get a chance send me a picture of what the back looks like. Oh, I can email you the mechanical when I get back to my office, too. That's right.

Because I'm looking I don't know how many how many do we think we're going to need because like the place that I buy from, you know, the more we order, the the cheaper the price gets. Yeah. So, I was thinking mailing to everybody if you could merge the um grand list with the voter checklist. Yeah. And then makes sense. You would get all of the like property owners who don't live here year round. You're going to need a thousand of them roughly. I don't know. That's why the Essex House would be a good place because a lot of the people from out of town go there. They go to the Legion. Yeah.

Do their grocery shopping at Kingdom Market. Um it would also be good just to have some of these um like in addition to the flyers just some of the extra postcards because again if somebody just has their smartphone or you know their their computer Peter it's it's a lot easier way beyond my talent merging the grand list and the voter checklist is I just learned how I can tell you that's we've done that once before it's not exactly an easy task. ask. Although maybe we have software now that can do that easier than we did. But

uh could we have u Mike uh Bruce put something on the town bulletin board by the road here to notify everybody that uh to keep an eye out for the uh survey and please fill out. We come up with something. Huh? We'll come up with something. Yeah. is that everybody drives by that big bulletin board you have out there. So, okay. All right. Allison, was there anything more that we need to discuss? Um, I'm just making

regarding the town plan update. So, I just the reason that I'm late was um I was looking for property owners who were interested in creating new housing opportunities. And I met with Kyle Forest who purchased um 47 Main Street

and I actually went inside the building. Um the front of it is really cool. I mean historically it's um the architectural elements have a lot of historic integrity. Um primarily it's the roof and the foundation have damage. Um the building behind it, he said that building behind it was built in the mid 1990s. Yeah, that's fairly new.

It's it's fairly new. That's massive. Um, so I gave them information on the Vermont Housing Improvement Program, which provides um 30 to $50,000 um for um depending on on you know certain arrangements, but in exchange for creation of units that would be rented at fair market rate. And the base rate for a twobedroom apartment here in Essex County, I think the base rate is almost 1,200. Yeah, that sounds very close.

Um, so he's got that information. It's the fair market rate calculator. Um, is an interactive thing online. um for the front part, the historic property, which is probably in the greatest peril right now. Um is um I think that that could be a tax credit state like through village center. Um and so I was going to reach out to Caitlyn Corkkins. Um I think that he's he had concluded earlier that he was just going to tear it down.

Um front part the front part. Um so in the historic district by the way I know. Yeah. So and it's it's obviously it contributes to the historic district. I mean, there's a lot um of architectural elements that are intact. Nice stuff there. Yeah. Um I asked him how many units he thought he could get in there. He was thinking two or three, but I'm thinking it's two. Yeah. I think I I even when I talked to him, I even thought a common area that all the tenants in the back could could use

Yeah. together, you know, as a seating area or Yeah. But all that stuff that's on the roof line and the eaves and all there's a lot of stuff there that is it would be too bad to see it get thrown away. Well, the other thing that would be lost is if that if that property were lost, then you basically have a missing tooth on your street front because then parking is already tight. Um, and if he's thinking he could get six units in there, it's that's going to be like a tight thing down that that driveway that goes around to the back.

Um, and he was more inclined to leave the garage that's behind there and build like a patio up there, but um I know that um parking requirements have been reduced through like the Home Act. So, you know, if he had one one parking unit, like part parking spot per unit, that would probably suffice. Yeah. I don't know if he could get an arrangement with somebody else like for off-site parking for one of the units.

Um, but yeah, so that was I I sent him information on the Vermont Housing Improvement Program and I'll send it all to you guys as well so that you know. Um, I also sent him the um, Vermont Homes for All toolkit, and I don't know if he has spent a lot of time looking at that, but it comes up with these um, typical housing typologies that you would find in a downtown or village center. Um, and it shows, you know, multi multi-units, multi-unit structures and how they could be arranged to fit in with an historic downtown. So, that was another thing that um I think that when we do our presentation on housing, we should include some of the concepts that come from that. So, I'll send you that. so that you know we'll have time to think about it but you know to pay attention to some of the architectural designs that are in there because um I was wondering too and I discussed that with him is some of the designs and uh the scroll work on the eaves and all that stuff could he incorporate that into the new section

right so it's not lost right and he says that that's a possibility that I could do I says well I says I I think it would be important if you could keep some of the stuff that's there. Yeah. Salvage it and and I don't know how that how that would work with historic the historic society as far as any grants that he might be able to get from that. But I I think if he were dismantling it and trying to work it into other I mean he would not get the tax credits. He he would um

but would he be eligible for a historic preservation grant since he's in the historic district? I mean, he's not a municipality, but do they open that up to other people? I if Caitlyn Corkkins would be the person to to reach out to, right? And I I would ask to reach out to her knowing that this is a property that is in peril if you if you have an owner who's kind of inclined to otherwise, we'll we'll tear it down. I I think if we communicated the sense of urgency with her, there's a particular grant just for that. I think for emergency improvements to historic buildings, we used it on the railroad station,

right? Um yeah. So I I think that she's the contact she'd be the contact on all of that anyway. And she also heads up the tax credit program. The other person that I would reach out to would be Nicole, um who used to work for us, who's now at Preservation Trust. Um, I don't know what they have for private property owners, but again, this would be a lost opportunity. Yeah. If it were torn down. So, yeah. It's got a European look, you know, as far as the roof lines and and all. And I too bad to see it get thrown away.

Well, what's really cool about it, too, is that if you look on both sides of it, you have this the street facade. All of the buildings along there have interesting architectural elements. Yeah. Yeah. So, um and just to have that gone completely and then have that new building and then parking in front lost it is going to be lost. So, you were saying something about the roof. Didn't he just put a new roof on there? I'm not the new part not on the not on the old building. Oh, I thought you had done the No, just the the new part in the back. As a matter of fact, it's not even tarped and there's a big hole.

Well, well, yeah, cuz I remember I we had gone to look at it and it was raining in water. I mean, upstairs is a big humongous room upstairs. Huge. The whole place is huge. Yeah, the new one. Yeah, the new part. Yeah. Yep. I did tear part of that off. Put the new part on. There used to be a couple of parments back beyond that must have been done in the 90s or Yeah. I'm an oldie from town so I know. Yeah. So if we pursued this or I don't know what it would mean to pursue this. How does this fit into our endeavors here?

So what I'm thinking is I'm I'm hoping that it's a lead. So um it's at our housing workshop or panel discussion. What I want to be able to identify are housing opport housing opportunities adaptive reuse and historic preservation. If we can make this one work, if we can generate some interest, then it would be a great case study to feature. Yeah. Great.

Makes sense. And the other thing is if there are elements that currently prevent um this project from going forward and permitting, we should know about it. Um I don't know what those things would be right now because I don't know how many units he wants to create. So still so many names and questions.

Yeah. Um, he was also at one point I guess somebody was interested in buying it from him, taking the new part and taking the roof off the second off the new structure and just turning that into commercial space. And he was also interested in creating commercial space. And I said, well, what's the demand for commercial space? Um, and he said he didn't know, but he had already had requests from people who said, "If you fix this up, I I would like to rent from you because there are people who are desperate for housing." So, commercial space, we don't have any

where there is nothing available in town right now. Okay. I guess what I'm saying though is does that demand outstrip demand for housing? Probably not. No, no. Actually, I think that would be a good thing for the front part would be to put two commercial spaces in it. One upstairs and down on the front part. Yeah. What the part that the historical part of it? Yeah.

I think that whole area is in the commercial zone actually out to Alders. We we expanded the the commercial zone to Alder Street a few years ago. I'm not sure where 47 M actually. I'm not sure. He's on Railroad Street. He's on Maine. What is that? Maine. 47 Maine. Yeah. So, he would he would be commercial if we extend it to Alder Street. He would be in it. 47 Maine may be the wrong address. Um actually, I don't know how it hooks on to Alder. You don't you can't get there from Malder Street. No, but it just the commercial zone is all the streets, right? borderline. Oh, okay.

But some years ago, the select board, I seem to recall, changed. It used to be that Main Street included the the part from downtown intersection to Alder Street and then Railroad Street started and that I think is how this place got its address. But I think the really I think the board changed that and started Railroad Street right at the downtown intersection. So, but that's a minor point really. This whole discussion about its address at this point.

So, any anyhow, that's that's where where I'm at. I mean, I gave him the information I had and I sent I'm going to send him more information on tax credits. I will also copy you on all of the information that I sent him because I think that um we should think about having like a packet of standard information

for people for projects like this. And there might all be different. I mean they might be like the gentleman who came in talking about the ADU today. Um and it might be somebody with a distressed property like this. But, you know, we want to make sure that we have all of the pieces together. So, but this was the kind of project I was thinking of that we would feature in the in the housing discussion. So, I think that's good. Um, you know, at some point maybe after we get the survey out, we might consider like a walking tour with the planning commission and start thinking about other properties that we might want to target or, you know, say, "Hey, what are you interested in doing this?" And, you know, start to think creatively.

Maybe we should uh look at the town tax map and sort of get an idea where to go. Yeah. First for our walking tour. What would what would we what would we be looking for exactly property space

something with redevelopment potential for create you know infill housing something that generates more users for your infrastructure that you know so it' be more users who pay for the infrastructure Um and you know keeping in mind so we would sort out sort out any properties less than one acre to begin with. Not necessarily.

You can actually no you it's proportional right. If you have a half of an acre you can have two dwellings right or three something like yeah right I forgot. Yeah. So, um, under act under the home act, um, the minimum allowable density for areas that are served by off-site water and sewer are five units an acre, right?

So, um, when people hear that, they tend to freak out. They think it's too dense for our town. It's not, you know, we're just a small town, but um that's why I'm interested in sending out the homes for all toolkit to all of you because I think some of those housing typologies that are featured in there might help people overcome objections to density, but also think creatively. So, um, there will be a little bit of homework on this one.

I understand that Juliano bought the property on Derby Street that you know those two buildings like when you come down Pleasant Street right in front of there and then the next. So, what are those? Are those just rooms or apartments? Those are apartments. Apartments. So, is why isn't it that being rented yet? They're all rented. I never see cars there. Well, he Airbnbs them. Okay. But there is Airbnb. There's one, but I think there's one apartment that's being um to the right of it. To the right of That's right. Morris's Mr. Morris's twotory building. The white one. The next door. To the right of that. Yeah, that's that's rent fulltime, right? Yeah.

But the other building I just don't see anytimes they'll have Airbnb. It's too bad. Yeah. Airbnb and there's some communities that that are in New Hampshire that are starting to restrict Airbnbs. Yep. Because it's causing a lot of problems. There's places in Vermont. Uh North Conway, New Hampshire is one of those places. Big big fights right now going on about Airbnbs.

I don't know how many Airbnbs we have in town. Um there is there's data on the um Vermont housing data website that has it shows rental activity, okay, over time. So um it doesn't necessarily provide you with a hard count of properties, but it gives you an idea of like how many are how many rentals are occurring. Well, and you could always just go on the Airbnb or VBO and the houses would be there. But some of them don't go through that just one time about 30. Well, I was just going to say it's 50 or less. Yeah. Is what I what I suspect right now that's going on.

And some people it's not it's not something they do all the time. It's they they rent the house out when they're not there. You know, it's it's you know, they use it most of the time, but you know, if they're not there for for a month out of the year, they rent it during that month. Yeah. Right. So that's why like it's called um the service is called air DNA and it just shows what the rental activity is going on but it doesn't distinguish between like a dedicated short-term rental or a part-time one.

It's hard. We we did a study last year was year before last. NVDA did it with us. Um it was between us St. John's and Lynville where we tried to gauge that that whole lodging study and you know that there is no real hard and fast data on that. It's hard to put your finger on it. Yeah.

So, um that was that was the only other thing. Um, but I I do need to follow up with not only with Kyle Forest, but with you so that you all see the information that I've sent to him. And then the other thing was at some point we really need to look at the future land use map that that Liam presented and revisit that um because you know that will also there's an op give you an extended opportunity to expand the designation area for you know for tax credits and permit reform etc. So, um I think that would require an in-person meeting to look at that that whole wall size map.

Is there anything out there that uh we'll say a person's got a great big house and they're only using four rooms out of it? Is there anything out there that would help them put apartments in the other? Yes. Vermont Housing Improvement Program. Okay. So, and then that's like that's why we put one of those questions in the survey because I think we need to get that information out too, you know. Yeah. Cuz I didn't know about that anymore. Yeah. So, that's all I have for today. Well, thank you. Thank you, Alison. Well, the the visit was fun.

I would like to have gone through that. Yeah. I I'm I I I kind of felt bad that I didn't get more people and um my boss wanted to go too and you had a meeting somewhere. So maybe we could all get a second visit and then if maybe he knows that everybody's really interested in Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That might that might be good. All right. Well, there thank you.

Right. So, the next one we have is the zoning administrator update. I did talk to Nick. He's got one new permit, a shed from Mr. Newman. I believe his name is Mr. Newman. It's very hard to printing on the bulletin board. He also sent an email to Joel and me about that um property on um did we already talk about this on Cedarwood Drive about the ground mounted? Is that is that completed now of have not heard I have not heard anything more about it. So you had you had suggested that if he you know the way he had it it didn't seem like he was going to have a problem. It was just the hype or something about it.

Well it was a question of how much wattage really if if he's above us above a certain amount the town loses control over it. So it's it goes to the public service board. Other than that, if it's if it's not a big huge 50 kilowatt project and it's ground mounted, it needs a it needs a permit like anything. And you did on the roof. If it's on the roof, it doesn't need a permit. Okay. Because I did see you responded to Nick and he was just kind of trying to measurements or whatever. He was I assume he took that knowledge and acted on it.

Yeah. Okay. So, that's all I have from Nick. Um, what else do I have? Okay, so the approve the minutes of the previous meeting. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes of the previous meeting. Do I hear a second? I'll second it. All in favor? I

uh other business. I do have a letter that we just received from Norwich uh solar and it's on um to the town representatives Suckman and the planning board on behalf of the Brighton Basil Hill Solar LLC. This is a courtesy letter to share with you that the solar proposal on Basil Hill Road will not move forward. As delays in securing all necessary information to present a petition to the Vermont Public Utility Commission continued, the project has concluded it cannot advance. Isn't that great? Those people are going to be so happy. Oh

yeah, that's great news. Um, okay. So, that was that. And, um, do we have any other business anybody wants to discuss? Good. I have a motion to adjurnn then. I'll make a motion to adjurnn. Second. I motion approved.