Board of Zoning Appeals - Regular Meeting

Good evening and welcome to the regular meeting of the Birmingham Planning Board for Wednesday, December 10, 2025. Could we please call the role? Robin Bole here. Jeff here. Daniel Sharer here. Janelle Wo here. Brian Williams here. Curry here. Merman here. Carter Anderson. Olivia Batanzos.

Thank you. Uh for purpose of this meeting, both Duncan and Nim are going to be voting members. Uh so we have um first item is review and approval of the minutes of the regular meeting of November 12, 2025. Are there any comments? And if not, could I have a motion to approve? Comments? No comments. Move to approve the minutes of November 12, 2025 as presented. Is there a second to the motion? Second. All right. Second by Miss Whoople Boyce. Um, any comments? Uh, all in favor, please signify by saying I. I.

My comments, this is a little bit of a mixed metaphor meeting. I I would like to uh suggest that we um move the pre-application discussion for 34952 Woodward, which is item L1, uh up ahead of uh the study session, uh so that they can uh make a presentation and not have to sit around for a couple hours waiting for our deliberations if that's acceptable

for the board. Okay. So, we will proceed with the zoning or excuse me, the zoning ordinance update after we complete uh the preapp discussion of 34952 Woodward. Miss Sroi, you're here. You want to stand up and tell us what you know? I will. Um I want to I want to ask Sam Bezos who owners the best tech company to speak first and then I'll give Okay, that's okay. So, introduce yourself. Sure.

Name? Um hello everybody. Uh my name is Sam Beznos. I'm the CEO of the Bezac companies and uh appreciate you taking the time today and um here are a little bit about our project and I'm very uh interested in hearing your comments as well. And by the way, thank you for moving up the schedule. So um I'm here with Zach Weiss, our assistant vice president of development and acquisitions and and you guys know uh the Seroki team, Victor and Alex. So, um, for those of you who don't know, uh, Beztec is a, um, almost a I think it's about 70year, uh, family business, uh, based in Michigan. Um, and we have offices in Florida as well that focus on, uh, apartments and senior living developments. And we also are the owner of the All Seasons Communities in Birmingham, just uh, just, you know, almost behind this project as well. So, um you know, just uh a little bit of background on us. We uh we have about 30,000 units that we we own or manage and uh we also have a portfolio of commercial properties and we operate in 14 different states. Um we're long-term holders of real estate. Uh we have some properties that we've owned since the late 60s7s. So we have a very u long-term view on um real estate and um you know planning and operations is you know something we specialize in and you know we think about certainly because of the duration of the the asset that we plan on owning uh long term. Um, I know this project in particular, we're very excited to be here today on um I personally tried to uh develop this property over for the last 10 years and

I know there's been others uh before us that have worked on some plans. So, I know you guys are familiar with the site and some of the challenges of uh of this site, but uh we believe we're the right developer for that. Certainly um our approach to developing real estate is is u you know not uh just to stick a a building on a site and see if it works. Uh we have every project that we develop is completely different. So this project in particular is is challenging and and we have a lot of great ideas that we think for this development to really enhance the Birmingham community knowing that it's a very prominent piece of property and prominent in the city of the city of Birmingham. So, we look forward to hearing from your comments. Um, you know, as I said, um, you know, we we believe that, you know, we have the capabilities to take this through. This is certainly not the biggest project we've ever developed and, um, and it's something that, you know, as a private company, um, you know, who, uh, primarily invests these things, uh, ourselves and it's, uh, it's a project that we want to have in the family for a long term. So anyways, with that, uh, I going to turn it over to Victor and Alex to talk about the project and of course be around here if you have any questions for me or on the project or for Zach. So, thank you and u look forward to hearing everything.

Thank you, Sam. Uh, Victor Sroi, I'm here with my son, Alex. Um, Nick, if it's okay, maybe we can put up the first just the cover sheet. Um, here for this is what I have is the first.

That's fine. Yep. Um so uh obviously we are Sroi Architecture and um we're very excited to be here uh and excited to present uh another unique opportunity and a big opportunity for the city. Um and that is for the development in the southeast corner of um Woodward and Maple. By the way, we were also a familyowned business 43 years. Not as long as them, but we're doing okay. And so I Thought that was nice that he said that. Um, as you I know you've seen the package. I think um um city sent it out uh to you in advance. So, I'm sure you've had a chance to maybe just flip through the deck and we'll we'll give kind of a brief overview then go through the deck as well. Obviously, this is a uh proposal for a ninestory mixeduse building. Uh we have two floors of underground parking. Um, and uh, so on the lowest floor, B2 we call it, we got about 152 cars. On B1, we've got 157 cars. The first floor is a very tall retail space and the retail fronts on both Woodward and Maple along with some building lobbies. And then behind that retail space, we've got two more levels of parking hidden on the inside corner. And I think what's notable to say is none of the parking is going to be visible from any of the streets. It is all hidden within the building. So from the building facades and the exterior, we've worked very hard with the whole team to make sure that we have building frontages, not just parking levels and parking decks. U I'm going to talk a little bit more a little bit more about the parking behind the retail spaces, but what's also important to know is we do all want a tall retail first floor. And it also is kind of the podium of the building,

right? That tall retail expression. You know, we always like to say every building's got a great base, body, and the top. So that tall retail floor is special. And retail likes tall spaces, whereas parking levels do not need the same height. So using that tall retail space, we can get two levels of parking behind it. That's a clever way to get more parking and um make it efficient. Um floors 2 through 7 are apartments and um those apartments are uh we have about 196 apartments. Um 90 197 apartments. Apartments range from uh 900 ft² to about 1,400 ft. And I know he's kind of going through the deck. We'll go through it a little bit more. And then the top two floors are um the eighth and ninth floor are 27 condominiums. Those will be for sale. And the condominiums are 1,800 to 2500 square feet. We actually have separate lobbies for each of the uses as well. The apartments have their own lobby and that's off of Maple and the condominiums have their own lobby and that's off of Maple and they they also have their own elevators uh for those uses. Um, we are going to uh request and you can see this in the proposal for two additional floors, the eighth and ninth floor and actually for part of the sixth floor in the MU5 and that's allowed by ordinance. So in the MU5 you're allowed five stories. We're going to ask for a sixth floor, one floor in that area. And then when we get to the um MU7, which is the majority of the site, it allows seven floors, but you get two additional bonus floors if you meet two of the criteria. And the two that we're proposing are the mixeduse project because we are truly a mixeduse project. And then that we provide a public parking component for the additional floors of square

footage that we're adding. And We're adding about there's 201 additional parking spaces. Just big picture, not to dwell too much on the number, the parking by ordinance in the residential requires 260 spaces. The retail will require 55 spaces for that's 315. And if we add the 201 spaces on top of that, we're at 516 spaces required. There is a table in the deck that has all of this. It's a It's a busy little table, but it's got a lot of factual information and I'm not expecting you to dwell with this. I'm just trying to give the high level. You're dealing with lawyers here. You We not I know you like the detail.

We're not We're not numbers, guys. No, you like the detail.

Um and uh on our proposal, so 516, these are kind of big picture numbers to think about that we uh would need if we parked all of it. 100% including the bonus floors. We're providing 444 spaces right now. So, we're a little bit short, 72 short spaces short from what's required. Now, we're going to continue to still work on it. We've got a few ideas maybe where we can find some additional spaces and I'm going to talk about other things that we're looking at, but in the big picture, we're only about 14% short of our of the target. And, you know, I know the planning board has the discretion to wave up to 50% of the parking. We're not talking about anything like that and we're going to continue to do the best we can to um get as much parking as we can. Uh and I would also say that in our proposal we will always maintain the 201 public spaces. We want to have those spaces available to the public. Um and the way we're going to do this is we've hired um obviously as you know when we come in for a big project like this we will have a CIS and along with the preliminary site plan and with the CIS there'll be a traffic study and um Stonefield Engineering is doing their traffic study um they will also do a shared parking analysis and they've already started looking at it. I see Brian raising his eyes. shared parking analysis where they will evaluate different parking demands at different times for the different uses. And this is a common methodology used in mixeduse buildings especially because as you could imagine the residential components have different peak demands than the um commercial components. For example, the residential components have 100% peak demand overnight.

However, during the day, their peak demand is only 50%. And these are statistical information that they'll show you. And you could imagine people are going to school, they're going to work, they're going to job, they're going out and visiting. But at night when they come home and they go to sleep, their peak demand is 100%. But during the day, it's only 50%. And the retail is sort of at different times as well because the retail peaks in the early afternoon and then it still stays fairly busy until maybe the early evening but after that there's no res there's no retail parking that is really needed. So, um, Stonefield will do a very good analysis and when they're here, when we're here with you for the CIS and the pre-lication or the, um, preliminary site plan, we will um, they will show you all the days of the week, all the times of the day, and what the requirements are. and on a preliminary analysis that they've already done for us, we are able to sufficiently park this site and maintain public parking. And um we think uh we will be able to meet the spirit of the ordinance and we we think you will agree when you see it. And as I said, we will continue to work on tweaking the plan. In fact, we've even hired a parking consultant, Rich and Associates, to help us refine the garage plans and the underground parking to just, you know, with their uh expertise to find nuances of you can get us a few more spaces here, you can get another space here. We're going to look at maybe opportunities to do some more tandem spaces. We have very few tandem spaces where one's behind the other. In fact, almost all of our spaces are single loaded, which is the best way to do it. But it's not uncommon to have tandem spaces in mixeduse buildings like this. Not to mention, there's the municipal

parking around us. I mean, we have street parking around us across the street. Uh there's 33 spots where Kroger is in the front. That rightway right there. Um we know that there's the parking system uh of streets and then the um the garage across the Peabody garage is not that far. It's and and now we have kind of a nice improved crosswalk at Forest. you know how they've got a delight at Forest to make that crosswalk better. So, we've got two crosswalk opportunities and then we've got the Forest and Woodward crossing. Um Nick, maybe if we want we can go through the deck and I could maybe um talk about the drawings and I'm going to use this pointer here. Uh this is just the first page and you could see this is just a massing model. Um we're looking at the way the building and we're going to show you a few more examples. Uh but we're looking at big um retail storefronts, uh punch window openings on the uh upper units. Um we've got the top two floors have to step back. Each of the top floors steps back 10 ft, which is required by ordinance. And we've got a very nice amenity space out on this. It's a two-story amenity space in the building. And you could appreciate that these larger high-end apartment and condo developments, the amenity spaces are really premium and they're important. And it's almost like hospitality, like you go to a very fine hotel where the lobbies are very dramatic, great workout rooms, spa facilities, uh meeting areas, uh um things like that. And then you could see that the building is uh is is sort of U-shaped but with this extra wing here. This is the MU um five portion. It's a little bit lower. And then there's an active courtyard in the middle of the building that a lot of units look onto. And then we've got a rooftop pool up on top of that sixth floor right there. And you know, one of the things that we

really thought about a lot is um we know Woodward's a busy street. It's busy all day long, right? Day and night. And so, um, sound and soundproofing is going to be important in this building. Um, and, um, uh, the interior courtyard is really an important space. We're going to have just as many units on the interior court, if not more on the interior court that look down to this unit, which will be a quieter space and a more tranquil space for the residents as well. Uh, this bottom drawing just shows the site. I think everybody knows the site. That's Woodward and that's Maple. And the site's about 67,000. We can skip this one. That's the table that Brian, I think, is going to study in more detail. Um, this is the lowest level of parking and you can see it's fully parked. We call that V2. It's 152 spaces. We've got a speed ramp on the side. Um, we do have to provide some underground storm detention. So, there will be a vault down here that we'll be working on with our engineers for underground storm detention. The elevators and stairs all go down to all the levels through the whole building. Uh then the next slide is really what we call B1. That's the level just below the first floor and there's 157 spaces there.

Can I just interrupt you so as long as we're at this point? When these drawings say market rate parking, is that what you refer to as public? Yeah, it's probably not the best terminology, but yes, I think we're in our mind we're saying this is the public. Okay, thanks. Correct.

Okay, the next slide is the first floor. This is I think an important slide because this a lot of thought has gone into how do you approach the building? How do visitors come to the building? How do residents come to the building? So, you can see obviously we've got Woodward here, we've got Maple up here, uh, and we have an alley over here, a public alley. So, one of the opportunities is off of Woodward, we create a nice uh approach right here that is both pedestrian and vehicular. And that's kind of like a big statement that's a it's an opening right through the whole building that brings you into the uh project and into the garage. Additionally, we have another approach off of Maple that allows for two ways. And again, you can go into the speed ramps here or park. And then a third approach is off of the alley and that people can come in this way as well. So there's three ways to approach the building. I think the big statement is right here on the front facade of the building and that is kind of almost like a gateway entry. Um our lobbies for the apartments and the uh condos are off of Maple and the elevators are there and then all the sort of supplementary spaces, mail rooms, package rooms, um things. Then we've got uh retail is here uh in the purple um on the corner of Woodward. And then further down on Woodward, we've got additional retail spaces. We've got some loading uh zones or loading docks here. And we've got uh an elevator and um stairs for uh loading and uh deliveries as well. Uh that will take you all through uh the tower. Um and uh one thing that is going to be important is for us is the the way we approach when residents come in or people come in to pick up people or drop people off. This area on the first floor is really even though we're in the garage is a premium space and we're going to want to make sure it's really

beautifully detailed, special paving, nice finishes, good lighting because that is somewhat the the the um front door for people who come in by a vehicle. Um if we go to the next slide, this is um that mezzanine level of parking. This is that again uh second level of parking that um we'll use right in here. And then of course what you're seeing is the tall storefronts over here. I'm going to talk a little bit more about this mezzanine level of parking because there's an interesting um uh element that we have to discuss and approach, but we'll come back to that. Um now we're starting to get on to the residential floor. So this is our second floor and um you can see the building is has this sort of U shape all the way around. There is an opening in here that allows us some vision. Uh this is a space that has uh the building amenities as well. And part of the amenities, part of this is two stories and part of it is one story. And that's like as I said, there'll be some meeting rooms, areas for some uh dining uh or private dining. Um there will be uh fitness areas, some spa areas, um things like that. And then recreation areas. Then of course this is our courtyard space uh that will be beautifully landscaped. Some outdoor areas, fire pits, fountain, etc. And we'll be programming that and detailing it in in more detail. Um, you'll notice that one of the elements of our building is that we step the building back 10 feet in the middle because it is a big long facade and we feel like, you know, from an urbanistic standpoint and architecturally it's nice to step the building back to give some relief. Um if we go to the next slide, uh this is you're just seeing now uh additional uh floor space um on the third level and this is that twostory amenity space and

uh that's going to be really dramatic from both outside and inside because it'll be almost floor to ceiling glass. You'll look into the building and when you're in the building you'll be looking out onto the excitement of woodwork. Um levels four and five and six are pretty much all the same. They uh have units and then uh thank you Nick. And then when we get to the seventh level is where we get to this other rooftop amenity and you can see over here it says MU5 and MU7. The majority of this site all of this is in the MU7 and this this one portion is in the MU5. So this is the last floor. The sixth floor will be the last floor in MU5. And then this is our outdoor roof deck where we'll have a pool. We'll have all the elements around the pool. We'll have some pergolas, fire pits, and then there'll be uh access to bathrooms and showers and and things like that as well for the pool, which is required by um uh code when you have a pool. And then if we go up again, we uh get to the next floor and um this is the first um condominium floor, so it's level eight. And the condominiums have their own smaller amenity space for the the owners on this floor. And you can see these units are larger. And of course, there's no units over here anymore. And then when we get to the top floor, the ninth floor is the building steps back again another 10 ft. And we get condos up here as well. You get to the next level. Uh this or the next drawing, I'm sorry. This uh is just a schematic section of the building. And uh this would be the street level. You can see there's two levels of underground parking. Then you get that tall retail floor and then you get the two floors of parking behind it. And then you get the uh amenity space that's part of it two stories, part of it one story. Then you

get the residential units and the condo units. On this side you're seeing residential units. And then we pull back up on top. And then um just moving on uh this is again now just we're still obviously designing the building but we're trying to emphasize uh the massing the verticality uh the uh apartments have punched openings. In our mind this is um uh from an urban standpoint we feel like this uh the base maybe will have stone but the body of it will be brick. The top will be potentially brick or maybe other materials. It could be a stuckco or a panel detail. When we get up to the condos, obviously the condos have these beautiful terraces that wrap all the way around. So that's really dramatic. We're thinking maybe we would have small Juliet balconies um for some of these units in the um on Woodward in Maple. And then there's another nuance to the site that um on the um Maple side is the rightway is wider at the corner and then as you go further back to the east the building steps out or the property line steps out. So we're allowing the building to step out and it just sort of helps break that line a little bit. And this is the entry to the um apartments. And if we, you know, we have the potential to um have a restaurant in here. And if we do, we would put the outdoor seating or cafe seating on that wide right of way on Maple. It just makes sense to utilize that space. It's city right away. It's never really going to get built on. I think maybe conceptually a long time ago there was thoughts that maybe Maple will get widened. I don't think that's going to be in the cards um uh ever, but it is that excess property that is um in a wide rate of way. Um just another element I I should mention is um uh

right now this parking is diagonal parking. What we really want to do is we want to widen the sidewalks and put trees here and make it parallel parking and still have a drive so that people can pull in or pull out, but we want to make the sidewalk and streetscape experience better and wider. So instead of that diagonal parking that you you know there's a lot of properties on Woodward that have that not necessarily the best. At least parallel parking will be better. Um if we just look at some of the other views, this is just kind of coming around the building here. You can see that big opening. That'll be an important approach and we'll have special materials going into that. This is the uh alley view and um there'll be an entry to the garage here. There'll be loading uh over here. And this is all retail. So, the retail will be tall storefronts with nice urban canopies. And that's that corner expression that wraps around on Maple for um the amenity space. And here, this is a view of Maple. If you were uh almost over the top of Kroger, this is what you'd be seeing. This is that all that amenity space, retail storefronts, residential lobby, um condominium lobby, and then here you're seeing the building as it steps back and then it steps down and you're seeing that full rooftop area over here uh which is uh better and a little bit lower. And uh this is kind of a bird's eye view looking down uh from the roof, but it's important to see the courtyard and then this pool area. By the way, on the east side of um uh that portion of the building, we are proposing residential units uh on the upper floors. We've actually set our building back 10 feet on the first floor and 15 feet on the upper floors. And we recognize that there's the potential

for a future development if somebody were to want to purchase these buildings and propose a bigger building. So, we're being very careful about setting our building back so that we have uh daylight and open space. And if somebody does purchase this building and and takes it down and builds a larger, let's say another mixeduse building for instance, they would set their building back 10 ft uh because they would have to to put windows in it and that's required by code. And so we'll have at least 25 ft between the buildings. And a good example of that is what we did at RH and our 370 brown project. We got this beautiful villa and if it's nicely landscaped and you've got windows on both sides, it could be a very nice space. So, we're really trying to think ahead of these buildings are for hundreds of years and so what's going to happen as the city matures and grows. I think that may be the last slide. Is that it?

Yeah. We normally allow 15 minutes for these. So, we're we're along. So, let me let me I have a couple comments and then I'm going to open it to other members. First of all, uh Rich as the consultant or the people they're going to do the parking structure. I've known them for 40 years. They're terrific. They did Birmingham Point. So, that's a plus. Thank you.

Um I think the biggest problem you have is the shortage of parking spaces. You you may know we just um declined an opportunity to approve a building that was 49 short roughly 50 short uh on South Woodward. So I I I think you need to work on that a little bit whether it's and I realize economics plays into this uh you know one way to do is increase the size of some of the very small units to reduce the parking requirement. Um, on the other hand, I do like the component where you have public parking, which of course is

generally non-existent in the triangle district. So, we'll look at it. We don't have authority. You'd have to go to the board of zoning appeals in any event if you're short. So, uh, we could approve it, but I think it's I'm not positive. And and we have a precedent here that we're dealing with, Victor, uh, that Birmingham Point had enough parking spaces on site. So, that presents a challenge for us. Those are my thoughts. I'm not definitively concluded anything, but I think you need to work on the parking spaces, and I think you know that. others. Stuart, you want to start?

Um, yeah. I mean, I don't disagree about the parking thing, but I think there's a lot of, if you look at it, a total package. I think there's a lot that you've done here. Yeah. that you didn't have to do here that feeds in very maybe better than other projects we've seen for this site into our master plan and

um things that are also important to us other than places for our four-wheel friends. So, um I did have one question and just only because I'm curious, what would be a double level amenity? I'm thinking climbing wall or uh probably a fitness area which will have big windows and um uh maybe part of the uh just a gathering space to really take in all of the views of uh Woodward and downtown. I that's going to be a unique perspective up there. So just to make it more grand. That's right. That's right. Maybe we will do a climbing wall. It's another amenity.

Well, as we've said before, this is the most important site in Southeast Michigan. Great that you're here. Why are you restricted to southeastern Michigan State can give us the nation? I get that. I get it. Um, another elephant in the room apart from parking. M dot um you're on you know Michigan one they're going to have a say in what is going to happen along there have you had any discussion so far or are you holding

we we know uh we have to address MDOT now obviously there you're talking about that rightway on um so right now they have more diagonal parking we're not changing the approaches on either end of it and we're not changing the island that separates um Woodward from the drive aisle. What we're talking about changing is taking those par those diagonal spaces and making them fewer and making them parallel so they're not sticking out as much and therefore when they don't stick out as much. The extra space I'd like to put back in or we'd like to put back in is make the sidewalks in front of the building wider

and to put some street trees in there as well to soften the building. We have a very large building and we want to treat it with the same care and beauty that our downtown has done right along Woodward and Mr. and I mean we've got one of the prettiest downtowns and the most walkable downtowns as we all know. Um second quick point smart you know they've got bus stops on both on both sides Maple and Woodward. They just moved one of them a couple of days ago I think. Um, you got to bear that in mind as well because that's an amenity. We haven't been thinking about that. It's an important facility for this and we've got we feel like we've got good good room.

And a final point for those long enough the where you've got your cafe seating if I remember correctly. That's exactly where Barkley Inn had their restaurant or coffee place. Am I right? Am I right? You are right. Yeah. So, we're coming back. I can see the BL, you know, like development D Dy's building, you know. Anyway, you know, personally, I really like the scale and the appearance of the of the rendering. Couple questions. The fir on the corner of um Woodward and Maple, those first three stories which include the retail and the amenity. Is that a glass? Is that all like a glass? Um the the retail space is almost 20 feet tall.

Okay. you know, so it's almost all glass and then there's steel canopies. Then you see that second. So that's that first 20 ft. Then you see the other two, this level and this level. That's the two stories of the amenity space that will wrap all the way around the corner. So it really sets up kind of an important element on the corner and I think it helps differentiate the building as something special happening at the corner. That's all glass. That's all glass. That look nice. Yeah. Another question that um 10- foot setback on the um Woodward side for the second floor units. One, two, three, four, five, like six units. All of these are set back 10 ft.

No, no. On down on the second floor right above the entry. Is that a balcony or is that just a um you know space? We haven't shown it as a balcony, but I actually thought about it and we haven't talked about it, but it is an opportunity to create an be a feature for those selling point. We maybe need to hire him as a consultant. just added a conflict of interest. Duncan's not for sale. Duncan is not for sale at least for the next two hours. I like it. I like it a lot. Thank you. Thank you.

Um so beautiful as always. Um really thoughtful planning on the first floor. Three ways in and out. Um is uh is is great as we all know how busy this is. um the thought of having the drop off lane internally as not to have that condition going on Woodward or Maple. Thank you. Um um you know, thought obviously put into package drop off and all those kind of things that that cause congestion. So great. I really look forward to seeing what you bring us about the parking. I I I mean it makes perfect sense to me and honestly I don't think um if it didn't work for you you would want to build this building because I know you mentioned there is other parking sort of around but

I mean it's not really convenient to expect people from this building to walk from across Woodward. So so of course you're going to have for your owners um because it just wouldn't make sense otherwise. So, I really look forward to those numbers. Um, and the numbers do work for us right now, but we're going to demonstrated for you with the shared parking analysis. I think you that will be eye opening. Yeah. And and I appreciate you proposing to sacrifice the diagonal parking on Woodward to give us better streetscape. Um, and I know you're losing spots there by doing it, but it's such a benefit to us. So,

so, you know, thank you for that. Um, and I would and I love the smaller unit sizes. I mean, I don't know what that mean. I don't know what that means for rent. Well, uh, but and you probably don't yet either, I suppose, but maybe they're working on the proarmas. We know what rents are generally in the in the market today, especially for new properties. Unfortunately, I mean, these projects are expensive. This property is expensive, but fortunately the rents can support the project if it's all done right.

Well, my point in that is that we we look for we hope for some some smaller units um units that will attract young professionals or or you know smaller. We have too many 4,000 square foot condos that are only affordable to very few people. So, so this is really great and I would I would not like to see them turn into a bunch of 2,000 square foot units to fix the parking. So, I hope uh we can work that all out and sort of keep what you've proposed because because I think it can be really great. So, thanks. Good.

So, like my colleagues, I I like the massing. I like the I mean, I'm assuming that the materials will be high quality and the glass won't be I love reflective but so but the the challenges from the planning point of view and so the things I'm hoping you folks will think about and address um fallen for me into two categories. One is parking talked about parking at length. It's not a surprise that that's a an issue. Um this is an area that's congested on all four sides. Uh so you know when you said oh even people can just go park at corner and walk across the street or park at the park street structure and walk across the street. I'm not sure how practical that is.

I agree. Um but again I'm not prejudging. I'm just telling you that that's something I'm sure we're all going to be looking at very closely in connection with parking. Um I'm going to be wanting to understand very clearly how many times um we count how many spaces. So just by way of example, if and and don't hold these aren't the right numbers. I understand that. But if you need 200 public spaces and 200 residential, not the same 200 spaces. That's right. In my mind, so you know, segregating that

um and and I don't think the drawings quite do it yet, but again, this is conceptual in terms of um access. Uh, one of the things that was an element of controversy between the planning board and the last developer to make a proposal here was left turn out of the maple side. Um, usually in those circumstances we win. Um, not always, but so be sensitive to that. Be prepared to address that. Um, left turn out. Left turn out. left turn out of the structure.

Out of the structure onto westbound Maple crossing traffic backs up there intersection. Yeah, that that particular stretch is kind of backs up. I forget what level of service that intersection is, but it you know that that's an item of okay

of some interest. Um likewise the um not just the M dot question of parking and you know I agree parallel parking in Woodward's better than the angled parking but um what happens to the traffic flow as people try and move into the out of the right hand lane into the uh whatever you call that M dot area that's you know not travel but uh where people go and park that that when you change Um, slip street. Slip street. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. So, when a building like this with its density and its load for for cars, what impact is that going to have on the safety of traffic kind of pulling into that slip street? Okay. Um, you know, I'm hoping the traffic consultant will will look at that. One of the problems that I see throughout the Woodward landscape is the conflict between folks like in this case coming out of the alley wanting to turn on to Woodward, folks coming up in this case north on Woodward wanting to move into the slip screen, that kind of conflict. Um that's a something to think about um and address.

Um likewise, one of the things that we did not resolve Um, and I'm hope have your environmental folks look at it in the CIS. This site had in, if I recall correctly, in prior years, there were some hazardous materials that were on the site and I can't remember if it was a gas station or a dry cleaner or whatever. Um, to the point where a again by memory um, a phase two was something that we had wanted to see. So have them as they do that kind of look at that see if there's you know if there is a phase two that's required or recommended okay

you know how how that will sort itself out you know but in in general um it's a given economics you know it's a um you know it's it's a nice solution to a a difficult site. The last comment is that um when you the the the question of or I've referred to as counting spaces for different purposes that impacts whether you meet the parking the quote public parking requirement for the bonus stories. So that's it's both a a do you meet the ordinance in terms of the number of spaces as well as are you qualified for two more spaces, two more stories,

right? and and that's why we've said we're always going to try to maintain 200 public spaces for the public for those bonus floors. Uh so the shortfall I guess is on the required parking a little bit, right? Yeah. It's it's you know that's the way maybe that we were looking at it. Um and that's why we want to demonstrate that with the shared parking there is sufficient parking for this project. Obviously we would never te they would never tackle a project of this size and magnitude without without that confidence that there is plenty of parking and a noteworthy public parking component that people can use.

Well, I mean just you know so so it's kind of clear where we have to come from. Um it's not uncommon for a developer to say um your ordinance is somewhat out of date and shouldn't be 100 parking spaces required. It should only be 75. That's a and we the developer would never, you know, underpart a building. All that's well and good. I have no doubt for about that. But we are constrained by what the ordinance says, not by what the ordinance would say if it was smarter.

I agree. I would never say our ordinance is outdated, but um I understand what you're saying. And uh again when we lay this all out in the in the big picture I think we'll take your comments and we'll address all of these items. Nim uh nothing uh much to add just uh to reiterate very happy to see you folks involved in this given the importance um the utmost importance of the site um to the city and the visibility. So

thank you. Um if I can I would I do want to mention two other things that I I I didn't say. Um, well, first of all, I and Nick, you can correct me if I'm wrong. I am under the impression that the planning board actually can wave the require the up to 50% of the required parking by ordinance if we demonstrate that we meet certain findings and that we um uh have sufficient parking and they feel comfortable. That is not a board of appeals action. It's the planning board has the authority.

That's right. And I was going to actually say before we ended that Uh in contrast, I think our own was actually ahead of the curve and ahead of its time in adding things like that. It's obviously we've never used it because development's been really slow in the triangle. A comparable sort of reduction that Victor's mentioning is the B3 stuff that we just did at 479. The mixed use reductions, it's the same concept for the same spirit and intent where you do have the power to reduce up to 50% should you want to. Victor has said that they're not going to ask for 50%. No. It's just a tool in the toolbox that you could use should you find their arguments convincing. Yeah. Wait a second. Any additional comments you have?

Can I mention two more things? I won't take long. There is another nuance to this that I I should mention. Remember we talked about that mezzanine of parking in the back behind the retail. There's that extra floor of parking in the in the twotory space. We got two levels in the tall um retail space. We got two levels of parking. By definition, this is a nuance of the building code versus the zoning ordinance. By definition of the building code, they may classify that extra level of parking as a floor, not a mezzanine.

And if it's classified as a floor, we will need a variance from the board of zoning appeals. Visually, we're within all the building heights. In fact, we're even the tallest part is under the building height. If you look at the building, it's a nstory building. This is like almost a hidden floor behind the storefront. We understand. Okay. So, it's just something that's a nuance that we won't have jurisdiction on that. It's No, you won't. But maybe if you're if you like it. Well, they always want to hear what we think.

Exactly. Thank you. And um uh and then the last thing is uh we probably will pursue just to be totally transparent, we probably will pursue an economic development license if for a liquor license uh if we do have a restaurant. This certainly will qualify and it would be a city commission issue. You got the size. No question about that. Yeah, that's it. Thank you very much. Uh and we really look forward to working with you. This is a really exciting project for us. Exciting project for the city. Yeah. for the state. For the whole state of Michigan, okay, thank you,

not just Southeast. Sorry, we took so much time. Great work, guys. Looking forward to it. Okay. Um, we're going to move along. And now we go back to item K1, zoning ordinance update project uh consultant selection. And then this is not a final selection. So I would point out to the public uh uh who may be listening that

the retention of a consultant which has been authorized by the city commission ultimately the city commission will make the decision as to which uh consultant will be uh hired. And so uh our role here is um to make a recommendation. Let me go back and just highlight briefly that originally we sent out RFPs. Uh we uh obtained a couple of months ago uh six uh proposals. We um in the meeting in October I think reviewed uh six um proposals. We uh then uh requested interviews in November of four entities Lavine uh Kendrick uh Gifles Webster and McKenna. We interviewed all four entities at our November meeting. Uh we agreed as a planning board that we would review uh not only the original submissions but um the results of the interviews uh and come back in hope and I would say in my case expectation that we would uh recommend a single entity for approval by this city commission at at whatever meeting they choose to consider it. Um is that a fair statement of where we are?

Mhm.

Okay. Then uh I have asked uh and we didn't discuss it the last necessarily at the last meeting. I want to make a comment on the fact that we received six uh proposals and I think frankly all of them uh were very good. Um and uh this has been a difficult process for all of us to consider these. But I want to flip that the other way to say um that I think is a compliment to the city and the city planning department that we have this many uh really terrific proposals coming in because these people would not choose to work in Birmingham unless they felt that the people we have in place, Nick, etc. uh at all uh are qualified and competent to be able to guide the city through this process with them. So I think it's a compliment to the city and to the city staff that we have this many what I view outstanding proposals. I've asked Nick uh because you all know and we reviewed this that the proposals were reviewed by a number of people within city administration and I think it's appropriate before we start finally discussing this that we get the input of the city administration because to date we have not.

Yep. So what say you Mr. Dupine? Sure. Thanks on behalf of the city. Thanks for your kind words as well. It's much appreciated.

And so we did take it seriously. We considered it a directive that you wanted to us to come today with a recommendation from city staff. So just to reiterate, the entire planning department reviewed it. Um three members of the building department and the entire city manager's office all reviewed everything we've got from the proposals to the interviews. We then congregated, they scored them, evaluated them as just as you did for the RFPs. And we also congregated last Wednesday to talk about how the interviews went, go over the RFPs, both um considerations. And what we came up with was, and I want to preface this very specifically because we felt exactly the same way you felt. And what a for what a good fortune we have to have such a hard decision. We felt as though the consensus was that two rose to the top in the interview stage combined with their RFP responses and ultimately it came down to details and when it came to the details we felt as though Hy Lavine would be best suited for this project. A number of comments were made on what they feel could be a really good synergy between the project team and our team. their high quality graphical approach and their really interesting I guess unique analysis style using the GIS components their attention to detail when it came to their RFP but also their presentation and how they tailored those types of things and a number of other things. What's also important because frankly this uh the second one was that was very highly rated was Kendeist and a lot of their draw not that they would not do a good job with the ordinance but their encode plus platform is a huge draw. It's a really good great program. We've got it already.

So what's important to know and what we discussed in our internal meetings is that yes we have it already. So, we've kind of got that piece. Again, not that they would do a bad job or not just as good of a job, but to get the highest and best form of encode plus platform, it would still be an upcharge from what they proposed in their uh cost proposal. And what Hy Lavine said in the interview is they'll deliver uh whatever we want in whatever format we want. So what I did then because cost is a consideration here that I admitted we didn't really factor into the RFP process the cost to upload to encode. So all we really do with encode is we play pay an annual license fee of about $4,000. That's a maintenance type fee a license type fee and then we pay on occasion to update the ordinance here and there. We paid as low as $44 to amend the ordinance and as high as almost 2,000. You can figure that that 2000 figure was when we migrated our entire old ordinance into the encode plus platform. All that to say very inexpensive. It's something we may even to absorb now even though we haven't really budgeted for it. um which we do plan to but so that alongside of the enco plus higher level platforms which we can still have access to even if we don't go with kendicist we felt like we could have our cake and eat it too and maybe have the best of both worlds. So for those reasons oh and also by the way we also love that how Lavine is lumping the sign ordinance in there that's in dire need of updates. So for all those reasons, that's what we chose. It was difficult. We spent about an hour in there talking about all of these, but ultimately that's what we chose.

Okay. Thank you. So I'm going to pick at random comments from plan board members. I'm going to start with Dan Sher who's probably never ready. Um, so I I mean I I tend to agree with Nick in that for me when I looked at the whole ball of wax. Um, there were two firms that were um superior to the others, the two he mentioned, Kendic and Alia Levine. I thought that McKenna and um Geles Webster were good, would do a good job, but they weren't quite as um thorough or inspirational as uh I thought Kendig and Aiel were. And I I come at this also from the point of view of what we're trying to accomplish. Keep in mind, we're trying to align the zoning ordinance with the new master plan. We're not writing on a clean slate. We're not tearing everything up. We're not um you know, kind of just making stuff up as we go along and saying, "Oh, here's a good idea. Let's throw it in." I mean, this is you know, an alignment of some stuff that we've already not some stuff, a very detailed master plan that we spent literally years working on that had large amounts of um community engagement. So the community is familiar with what we've done, what the city's done with the master plan and should have a pretty good idea of what alignment would look like. Um, you know, that said, there are some, you know, interesting and creative concepts in the master plan, and I think we as a city would benefit from, um, national best practices, assistance in adapting the zoning

ordinance to or aligning the zoning ordinance with the master plan. Um, it's a a close call for me between Kende and House Lavine. Um, I guess I felt at the end of the day a little bit more comfortable with Housey Lavine and I thought that's that's where I my recommendation would land. Thanks, Duncan. I agree with you on the choice of House Leavine. A couple points I had was it conforms the budget. Uh, I like their emphasis on creative community engagement.

Um, presentation a couple weeks ago was packed with information, examples, um, very detailed scope, clear in mission and most eloquent. Uh, they cited a plethora of, uh, examples and awards and credentials and, uh, include the sign standards. I like them the best. Janelle.

So, I liked Ken and Keith very much. Um, and I liked McKenna as well. Um, it's interesting how different uh perspectives there are. When when we had the interviews, um, I was especially impressed with Ken and Keith's approach. um they did not come in and reiterate their resume. Um they didn't talk about all their awards that they'd listed when they um when they sent in their uh qualifications, but what they did talk about was what they could do for us specifically. and they provided this packet with a bunch of information to take home, to read that again talked about what they would do for Birmingham. Um they had um very impressive uh other projects that they highlighted that they sent to us that we could go we could look at and we could work through the ordinances that they had previously written. Whereas I didn't feel like how offered us that the same way. Um, when I went to look at Houseield's many other projects, and there were lots of them, um, I struggled to find, um, very good examples that were similar to our city that did a very good presentation as Kend did in theirs. Um, and I'll say for McKenna as well, um, their and why I liked them second best, um, is, uh, their their written work, their presentation

of of ordinances that they have done were so easy to work with and and I really think that's going to be very that's so important when when you crack one of these ordinances, you're looking for something in particular. Um, it needs to make sense and um, Kendig does it for sure and McKenna does it well also. Um, I like Dan said, um, they're not they're not reinventing anything. They're not doing what we did for the master plan. Rather, they're bringing all of this together and and looking at the master plan and using the master plan to um to put our ordinance in order. Um so when I looked at the detail that Kenda gave us, I I was just really really impressed. And even um even little things like uh it's funny I came back to my notes la late last week in preparation for this meeting and I pulled out all the all the papers and all the information that was given to us on the night of the interviews and what I found was um what I think was either three or four packets of information. Kendigs and McKenna's were labeled with their um their letter head on every page they gave us. And then I had a whole bunch of other information from I'm not sure which one where they neglected to put their name on the information they gave us at the presentation. And I found that funny because that's the kind of detail we need when we're putting together when they're putting together this ordinance for us. But yet um it was omitted on something as simple as that.

And um Kendig and McKenna hit the nail on the head for me. Kend first, McKenna second. Um Nim.

Yeah. Um I was surprised at how much of an impact the uh the interviews had on me personally just in terms of how it sort of reconfigured my my preferences going in. um maybe I shouldn't have been as someone who does writing and then speaking for work that you know that second part is really important. Um, and so for me, my top two were um, House Lavine and Kende in that order. Um, I was really impressed, I think, with um, House, the team that they brought and the creativity. I thought their answers um were especially impressive. At least to me, they did not seem canned and that was not to disparrage anyone else, but it was I think a lot of thought had gone into um a lot of those elements where some, you know, some of the other folks, you know, the I I probably could have guessed how they were going to answer the question and it wasn't super satisfying. Um it was maybe a little bit surface level. Um but those two for me far and away um they were my my preferred um choices. And then in terms of picking between the two, you know, obviously, you know, the the group's thought, but I think staff um their input cannot be underestimated um because they're going to do so much of the heavy lifting. Stuart.

Um, I agree with the point made earlier that this isn't a completely complete rewrite. This isn't like a wonderful work of fiction or anything like that. It's this is this is there's a lot of mechanics in this and and um you know, not totally, but you know, it's you know, there's a that's it's got to work. And I guess um to me, we always talk about Hinsdale, Illinois, and the fact that this one of these firms is actually located there, I thought was kind of kind of ironic. But um I guess the thing that pushes me in one direction is the fact that the guy that they're going to have to work with, the department they're going to have to work with, the administration they're going to have to work with, he's kind of leaning that way and that we already maybe have some of the framework that'll work well. So, I guess uh I'm leaning towards Howal.

Okay, I guess we got Robin to go.

Yeah. Well, um I think you've all said some really important things. Um I did a bit of a deeper dive because there was some some question about delivery. What will they deliver to us and what will we be sitting here looking at at the end of this process? when you get through the Gant chart, what do we have and what are we expecting to see? And I so I went to each of them in turn and and I was really incredibly impressed. If you remember, I think it was Gibles came in and Jill said, "We're going to do uh zoning 101 and and educate the the public." And I wasn't looking for that. But what I did find in House of Lavine was at the very end they're going to do like a story book there they are suggesting that they will put together a sort of a what's the word they use if I can find it in here.

A story map.

Story map. Absolutely. A story map about how they got to their conclusion. and they would give this to all participants, put it on their website, um explain the stages that were taken to reach the final document that we would then take to the recommend to the commission to adopt. I thought that was pretty interesting because I thought it keeps the engagement process not just at the beginning but through the process and up and and until the very end. So that was one thing that I I really liked. Um I was very impressed by their conversations, House of Lavine's um conversation and writing about um GIS because that is the basis that's platform on which all of our work is now done. all of it and if it doesn't fit to that then things are tricky and I think they persuaded me that they would work with the staff and with other techs in the in in the in the city to make sure that their production fits with the platforms that we've got here and I think that's terribly terribly important. I know it's not what we we want to have driving this process bit like you know driving developments like that on the basis of parking which is not the most important thing but it's very important it's the same with GIS it is unbelievably important as to what we do and how we see it and how we collect our data and it's only going to continue so for these very detailed reasons um I reconfirmed my feeling that household was the way we should go.

Your thoughts on Kendrick East? Really good. The presentation was excellent. I had concerns. I did. I thought the the I've forgotten the guy's name. Or Steve. Steve.

I don't know. I don't know how many hours in the day that man has because he had seven live projects. Seven. This one state. And that scared the heck out of me. I thought that's a very diff I actually asked a question you know and we got the answer they'll cope and all the rest but that worried me a bit but they've got a good they're a good team they are a very good team with good and some very good reviews um and they're doing Bloomfield Hills

next door pretty interesting um but at the end of the day I I come down to the house of Lavine with one modest discussion point. Maybe we don't bring it up here, but they've talked about uh two um organizations, ZPAC and ZTEC. Um I'm not sure we need to burden ourselves with lots of steering committees and advisory committees. I don't know how other people feel, but um modestly I think we've got a pretty damn good board here. Yeah.

And I think we can have that conversation providing Mr. share doesn't have a heart attack. Um why why would I have a heart attack? I need your your your detailed knowledge. Um without going down setting up these committees, could staff maybe comment on that to me? Yeah, forgive me. I just put it away. Let me open it real quick because I think one of them is optional and I thought for sure to myself that the optional one is unnecessary for some of the reasons that you said but the initial one I didn't think that I had any problems with regardless of

that's ZTEC I think that's the ZAC the zoning policy advisory committee which I'm already confused so Zpack is basically made of what you said some commissioners potentially planning board members and city staff kind of specialists in the zoning area. The ZTAC I believe is when they started to add on business leaders and development professionals and other types of things that and Dan I think we can engage in other ways. Okay.

So I think we agree with what you're saying. The optional one costs more money so we weren't going to really go there but the Zpack I think is what you're getting what you're suggesting anyways. That's where we were on that. So that's my thing. Yeah. So one of the other things when I was looking at their website again um who is they house Lavine? Sorry.

Okay. Um they have a thing called Uklid HL. The um the lawyer property lawyer in me recognizes the reference to the seminal zoning case from the 20s I think it was. But in any event, uh it's a appears to me to be an AI tool that would kind of combine with the zoning ordinance is redone and you could like ask it a question, you know, uh how high can my house be? And it'll generate an answer and a a reference. So you don't have to if you're the average person, you don't have to start flipping through this big long ordinance that who knows how you know how to use them. It gives you a starting place. That that looked like a pretty nice feature.

Yeah. Okay. So, uh before I make comments, I is there anybody online that I can't tell? No. Okay. So, we don't have any This is the opportunity for the public to make a comment if the public cares to comment. And I don't see anybody that cares to comment. Uh so I'll give you my thoughts.

Before you go, can I ask one question to make sure you you come last? You you talked about the comparison of cost. Did you look at how Lavine in terms of what additional cost there might be and is sure was an an issue for you and your colleagues in the city? Right. It was a consideration. So at a at a surface level both of them that their base cost I'd call it with everything that's included not extra is right on the money about 199ish right which is technically under budget just barely so um policy leavine does have some add-ons that the community engagement dashboard things like that

for nominal costs that a dashboard is like four grand maybe we like to do it maybe not maybe once they tell us a little more about it we'll decide but Kendrick if I recall correctly I'm going to dig it out here. I think didn't have anything in their actual project cost table. I got to find it. Got to find it. But throughout their project approach or project u yeah they just had an additional meeting charge. So it's a little more unclear in terms of kendic keys what extra if anything but if you go through the project approach that's where you see the enhanced encode stuff. That's additional cost. That's that's what we saw that

that's how we figured that either which whichever way we go if we want that it's an additional cost. So okay good.

Well I would offer comment I I I think I'm cognizant of the fact that McKenna has worked in the city extensively and to some extent GLES also. Um, so I recognize that and um think it's important. I did however conclude the same as most of us. Um, originally I had Kende frankly ranked one and Hilio Lavine ran two, but uh I'm not a real property lawyer and I'm not a planning person and I don't deal with the zoning ordinance the way some of you do. Um, so I'm I came into this saying I would be amanable to either of those two entities, Kende or Hiel Levine, depending on what the city administration said if it was really down to those two. So I'm inclined based on the recommendation of this of the city and the comments generally here with the exception of one of our members u to go with house Lavine. Uh and one comment we haven't made and uh I have to say the most enthusiastic person in the entire presentation all four of them was from I mean he was chasing to get on board and return to the great state of Michigan where he was born. Uh, and I thought that was a commitment uh that was important to me. I didn't see that same level of commitment from Kend from the top of the house. Uh maybe it would show particularly in light of the person who would be in charge as busy as that person is. But I thought that was important and significant. So, um, I'm I'm taking a poll here, and I think

the only one who's out of sorts with this is you, you know, I'm not really out of sorts with it. I mean, I I think they're all fantastic. And I I don't think we have a bad choice here. And, um, I think the thing that I think I'd like to see it go to Kendig, but um, you know, I think staff's opinion is especially important because you guys are going to be doing all the work. Yeah. And so, um, you know, as far as I'm concerned, you'll have a unanimous Oh, wow. vote, I think, here tonight.

Okay. Well, I I I think uh all four I repeat, I think all four um submissions uh it was important for me to get such outstanding submissions. I think it's um I think with any of the four we could have gotten this done frankly. Uh so it's it's a hard choice. Um I know our two local entities are probably going to be disappointed. U but um they're both terrific companies and and at least one of them's been significantly involved in Birmingham for the last few years. So, I I think there's one benefit when we do this every 30 or 40 years. I don't know how long it's been since we've done the zoning redo.

Yeah.

Maybe a little national perspective would be good. Not that the two local entities don't have perspective multi-state, but certainly um the two out ofstate entities have much more national experience. It's just a fact of maybe size or length of service um concentration in this area. So I guess uh I would entertain a motion unless there's any reason for further discussion. U there is there is a suggested resolution is there not? Mhm. That's on page 20 on page four of the packet

and that the planning board recommends the city commission select blank for purposes of performing a comprehensive zoning ordinance update. So I would entertain a motion um as to the recommendation of the city commission of an entity. Is there a motion? Looking for where it is. Page four at the bottom. Page four. Would somebody like to make a motion? Go ahead. Go. Sure, I'll make the motion. All right. Go, Kelly. Go.

Planning board recommends that the city commission select Howil Lavine for the purposes of performing comprehensive zoning ordinance update for the city in accordance with the specifications contained within Lavine's response to the city's request for proposals. Is there a second to that motion? No second. Oh, second. Sure. A second by Mr. Bole. Thought I'd lost control of the group here. You have

I have I have some from time to time lost control of this group. So, uh, comments on the motion before we uh and to the public. Any comments from the public on the motion? I don't see any. What was that? Steuart's phone. Steuart's phone. Somebody's phone. Maybe it was mine. Um, I don't see the public on so uh I will call the question. Let's do a roll call vote. Duncan Curry. How Lavine. I Robin Bole. Hi. Stuart Jeff.

Hi. Daniel Sher, yes. Ryan Williams, yes. Yes.

Okay, I think that concludes that item. Um, I want to thank the board personally for all the hard work that's gone into this. I know some of you have spent a lot of time looking into this and I think ultimately as a result of that we will be better prepared for the next phase coming up. Uh we won't be approaching this um blindly. Uh communications item L2 any you want to do project updates or anything? I don't really have anything to comment on that. I do have two things that I could uh tell you about real quick in this section if you'd like.

Uh one being our next meeting on January 12th. Yeah, it's first meeting of the month typically slated for uh study session type stuff. I don't expect that we'll have anything, but including this because I've got to get this to the commission, but there are some things floating around in the background with applications that I was curious if I need it. So, I don't have anything planned now, but if I do end up needing it, would you all be willing to consider site plans on that day and amend the rules of procedure in the event that we need it? Yes. Uh, and I I think I don't know when you plan to go to the city commission.

Um, I would hope for January 12th. Okay. I think I think I said that. Yeah, I was going to confirm the date. And and what do you envision the start of the the process being with, assuming the city commission agrees, House Lavine, would there be an initial meeting with us? Is that the way you would? I would almost say certainly. Of course, it'll start internally with all the table setting stuff, but yeah, we would bring them here. Well, when do you when do you expect the city commission to look at this? Well, we'd love to do it on January 12th. That's the correct date. And forgive me, the planning board is 14. So, we'll get back to that. But January 12th, depending on what the

We could we could suspend all of our rules of procedure for January and have House Seal in in the second meeting in January if they're selected. if you if you'd like and if it works for everybody involved. Yeah. Well, we get into the spring, people leave and go to warmer climbs. So, I think the earlier we get them in here and the quicker we get started, I would be more comfortable. So,

we can get them in at the end of January. If the city commission agrees with us, then let's shoot for that. In that case, let me make a suggestion and that there somebody make a motion that we have the combined meetings both in the first and second meetings in January which gives us the flexibility to consider both a study session and site plans at both meetings. That would be super helpful. Is there a motion? Sure. the motion maker Daniel Sharer. Um I I'll move that the rules of procedure for the month the two meetings in January 2026 be suspended such that either or both can be a meeting that uh considers both site plans and study sessions.

Study study sessions. Thank you. Is there a second to the motion? Second. All those in favor signify by saying I. I. Any dissent? Okay. Um, so that was uh number one, if I may. Yeah. Number two, I just wanted to tell you that we have a new employee. Lauren Millia, sitting there in the front row there, is our new planning intern. She started what, three weeks ago, four weeks ago at this point? 10th, I think. Okay. On my birthday. She started on my birthday. So, I got myself an intern as a birthday gift. That was your gift. Wayne State urban planning master student. Um, happy to have her. You'll see her more. I just wanted to show your face. No speech, no nothing.

Where are you? State. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. You're going to that well. Yeah. Yeah. We're ringing for all it's worth here. Yeah. I know you are. You already know you are. Well, big great contributor to the state. No question. You'll see you'll see uh Lauren's face more as well as summer and the new year. So, okay. Well, thank all of you. Uh this is our last meeting of the year. Uh I think Scott will be in touch with respect to uh

yeah lunch and plans. I'm not going to assert that role for him. I've done everything else in the last three months for him. So so he can plan the lunch. But I want to thank the planning department. Again I stated at the start of the meeting I think uh kudos to all of you. uh we wouldn't be embarking on this project without a high confidence in your abilities to get us through it. And so u happy holidays to all of you and uh is there any other business? I can say this for the last time in 2025 meet meeting a journ.