Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Good afternoon. I'd like to call this meeting of the Benton Harbor uh planning commission to order. Uh it is now 1:12. Can we have the roll call, please? Commissioner Adams, present. Commissioner Bell, present. Commissioner Henry Commissioner Hensel present. Commissioner Marshall here. Manager Little here. Mayor Muhammad. Chairman Reid. You have a quorum. Thank you. Uh I need a motion please to approve the agenda.

Motion to Okay. Uh made by Commissioner Adams, supported by Commissioner Marshall. All in uh any discussion? All in favor? I call another one. All right. Roll call. Commissioner Bell. Yes. Commissioner Henry, yes. Commissioner Marshall, Manager Little, yes. Commissioner Adams, yes. Commissioner Hensel, yes. Motion carried. Okay, let's see.

We need the approval a motion for the approval of the minutes, please, from August 12th. Um the as the agenda said, we did not have a meeting in September. So, um I'll entertain a motion to approve these. [Music] Okay, Mr. All right. Uh Mr. Marshall uh commercial the commissioner Marshall made the motion and it's supported by Commissioner Adams. Um any discussion? No. All right. Can we have the roll call, please? Commissioner Bell? Yes. Commissioner Henry? Yes. Commissioner Marshall?

Yes. Manager Little? Yes. Commissioner Adams? Yes. Commissioner Hensel? Yes.

Motion carried. Okay. Um, now we're on to item number five on the agenda, which is public comments. Um, we have a lot of people here today. Uh, would any of you like a moment to speak? We offer three minutes to each person. No. All right. Um, since there's none, we'll close the public comments and we'll get on to new business. Um, November meeting date. So the first Tuesday in November is November 4th, which is obviously election day. So we would move that back a week. However, um that day is Veterans Day and the office is closed. So the planning commission needs to decide do they want to meet on November 18th or do they want to pick a different day during that week to meet the

18th or Tuesday? Is that is that the only one prior to Veterans Day or election. So the first Tuesday is election day, right? Um so we would move back to the second Tuesday which would be Veterans Day and the office is closed. So the following Tuesday would be November 18th.

Is there an opening on Wednesday the 12th or in the first week on the 5th? The reason I ask is I think we have we may have business on the agenda in November that we would like the city commission to have an opportunity to take a look at um before the month goes by us. So, and not only that, not to be holding up other I mean holding up progress period just Yeah. Right. So, um I don't know what everyone's pleasure is, but is that a possibility that either the 5th or the uh would be the 12th?

Wednesday is not a good day for me. I'm always got two things to do. Okay. Any other thoughts? Thursdays. Do we need a vote on something? Six more than 12. Uh, 18.

It It would be nice to have it if in time so that the city commission could have because we have some zoning things that we were updating that I think will probably be on November's agenda. I don't know for sure, but that will give them time to look at whatever we've had a chance to look at and and pass on. We had a sub committee and look at the final I we could we it's not on here today, but that is something that I thought we should ask about uh arranging. You need to know where we're going before we send the commission.

Yeah. Yeah. So that's if we can set that meeting and this one. Um then I think we'd be all set. So none of this is on the agenda unfortunately, but we got to figure this out. Will the 18th give us an Well, the city commission meets will meet that Monday, won't they? On the 17th. So we will have lost before the city commission,

right? we will have lost the the whole month. Um so if if it were possible um the second Monday is the 10th. Is that a possibility? The 10th you said we wouldn't want to do it on the 3rd because you're preparing for the election, right? That sounds good. So, so does you say what date? It would be November 10th on Monday. Doesn't bother with me. That's agreed on that. Works for me.

That gives us the opportunity then to have the subcommittee also before and then um to give the city commission plenty of time to look at anything if we're sending it on. So, um, if everyone any objections to Monday the 10th. Yeah. Yeah. Second time. Can we push the meeting to two? Does it have to be one? I can't do one.

Okay. 2:00. So, should we say 2:00 on Monday, November 10th?

We can just take a consensus of the commission on that date. Monday, November 10th at 2 p.m. Okay. Okay.

Um I don't know if we should do this now since we're talking about meetings. Um, we do need to um do a Sorry, I'm making a note. Uh, we do need to set a city subcommittee meeting to discuss whatever feedback we're getting from McKenna. So, um, knowing that we would be meeting on the 10th, um, let's see. Is there uh something that works for your schedule because

he indicates you'll be getting it to us this week. Yeah. Right.

Okay. Um, I'm pretty flexible. So, if we're talking about giving him a few more days, I am not available on the on the 15th, but between now and then, I could So, you're available on what day? I'm not available on the 15th.

15th, right? But other than that, I'm pretty open between now and then if there's a date that works for the other subcommittee members Friday. How about Monday afternoon 13? Looks fine for me. Monday afternoon on the 13th. Yes. And this subcommittee the 13th is the second Monday.

Uh yeah. Yeah. with in the evening like afternoon. Let's see. I'm going to look at um

three three

All right. So, we'll set that meeting then for Monday, October 13th at 3:00 for the uh planning or the zoning ordinance subcommittee meeting. Okay. Did you have anything else under Okay. Uh so, moving on. Um looks like we have old business. Um, and item A is the site plan review for 456 South Fair. Uh, property number 11-54-2300-6 7-01-8 for a restaurant. Uh, are there any presentations? Mr. Justin, would you like to speak to us about where we are with things?

Yes. It was tabled. So, I guess we do. We need to vote to untab it before we can have him talk about it. We have to put it back on the table and act on it. Okay. So, are you making that motion? Okay. So, we have a motion for Mr. Marshall to discuss this uh and support from Commissioner Adams. All right. Um Mr. Barton.

Oh, there we go. Uh so we have been working on the site plan here. Um we did come to getting the correct amount of parking spots. You'd be 10 more over from what were required of 33. uh you'll be at 43 parking spots with that additional parking lot. Um so we did get the ballards up around the the deck that he put up there. Um so we did change that. We do have a wall that's going around the storage area of that deck to conceal it. Um, we do the only things that we need on here would be lighting for that other parking lot that I do not see on here uh for adequate security lighting and safety. Um, and then I did have him put up a privacy fence here as you can see for that parking lot. Uh, he was asking if the foliage there and the trees would be enough to have a security there. Um, my opinion, no. I would put still put a fence there. Um, being that's a commercial restaurant parking lot with a residential uh lot right next to it, even though it is condemned at the moment, but in the future it could be, you know, made into another house. Um, and then the only other thing is we need a security plan, but we can get that once we're before we open up the business. Um, and then and then I just have to mention the life safety of this new parking lot. Um, I just have to bring it up. Uh, seeing what happens at, you know, at nights with parties with parking lots that happen that are open. Um, you know, nothing's happening right now at the moment there, but hopefully in the

future if we open it up, there isn't going to be parties in between other parties as we push them out at night, you know, on Fridays and Saturdays when we get those big parties around the city. That's my only concern about that other parking lot, especially residential structures all around it. Um but other than that he has given me all the other documents. Um the traffic study, erosion study, um he has been working with me. So I I do give him that. Mr. Marshall,

I wasn't present when this item was tabled. Could you fill me in as to why it was tabled? Um, yeah, we've got a um I'm as I remember this because I'm not prepared to answer this question, but I'll dig through my

memory here. We we got a um a memo from the staff indicating that there were a number of things that were not up to what they needed to be. and in reviewing them with the city attorney as well. Um there were a list of things that needed to be addressed and rather than deny the plan as it was presented um at that point it was tabled in order to give the staff an opportunity to negotiate with Mr. bullets and get the answers needed to to bring it back today so that a decision could be made by us with the information.

Oh, and here's our secretary answer that. So, there was a a list. I can go over the list if that's what you're looking for specifically

based off Okay, so the list was um the building was 3670 ft excluding the new deck which was not in the original drawings. Um parking spaces need verification. He was required to have the minimum ratio. The drainage had not been reviewed yet um by the Bering County Drain Committee Commission. The driveway access um needed to coordinate with Berian County Road Commission. The lighting and the dumpster screening must also comply with the city ordinances. Um he had to provide proof of ownership or land contract. Um submit property maintenance and ask built plans. He had to adjust business hours if needed near residential zones. clarify use of accessory spaces like the outdoor stands. Um he had to submit a security plan to the department of public safety, verify and mark property lines before any fencing or paving and also he needed to address the lighting requirements for the overflow parking area.

My question to you, has he met all those standards? uh he has met most of them. We still don't have property lines uh surveyed. Um so there's nothing they're exactly for where to measure from for parking. Um we do have the documents all the other documents besides the the public safety or the safety document. I I heard you say go ahead. I heard you say another deck was added or something to that nature. That wasn't part of the original plan. Correct. Okay, Commissioner Adams.

Thank you. Thank you, Honorable Chair. And in correspondence with the list that Commissioner Bell read off these item, this item was tabled solely for the purpose of our employee to work with this developer to ensure that when he came back today that everything would be in order. Now, I heard two things. The lighting was on the list and that yet has to be taken care of. Yes. Okay.

There was something about fencing and property lines and a a a an assessment. What do you call that? Um appraisal or whatever on a property line. I thought that we were eliminating things like that due to the fact that over the years when we go to other communities, it was to keep people from having to come out into traffic to go just right next door. Granted, you want to separate someone's residential, but that's on the resident to to actually put up a privacy fence,

is it not? No. Okay. The ordinance calls for um buffering between uses, which specifically means that's throughout the whole city, right? Throughout the entire city. wherever you have incompatible uses that come up to one another. Okay. Um and it's very specific about what types of things are acceptable and which are not.

Okay. Um, and since you brought that up, I do see having looked at this drawing that we received, um, and listening to what you just mentioned about the 6-ft privacy fence along the property line with the neighboring residential property that there still doesn't appear to be any kind of control along Britain Avenue. So, the parking lot is just open at that end. And if we're talking about trying to protect pedestrians and also to avoid having um groups that that congregate and then block the public right away. Um it might make more sense for Mr. Bulocks to have a fence so he can control who's coming and going in his property. they have would have to come to his end where presumably he can see that people are entering his parking lot so he can control who comes and goes. Um, so I'm wondering is if that isn't something that could be worked out, especially along Britain, but but then possibly also along Fair to have something low, wouldn't have to be a privacy fence, just something that would allow for your control of your parking lot since it's kind of out there away from where your staff will be. Um, and that will help then too. Once the lighting is in place, you'll have that fence. Um, you won't have people trespassing or congregating who are not your customers. Uh, so this plan that all of you have right now, this the latest one that he dropped off to me Friday afternoon. I was going off this main one. He does have lighting on this one, so we're okay with that one right now. I was looking at the main site plan and then I got this one in Friday. So, he just mentioned that. So, I just want to put

that out there for the lighting right now. Okay. Is that something you could work out perhaps? I mean, that's really costly to do when it's already got buffering right there. So, that shouldn't be allowed to hit pedestrians because of the buffering right there. Are people entering and and exiting then? They are exiting and e and uh entering along the edge of the property onto Britain. So they're they would be coming on going in there. There's a place for people to go. Um

I do required ordinance. Is that required in the ordinance for every parking lot to have a fence around it? No, it's not. But then there are safety issues in that location that we've already talked about. So that's part of the reason that that you didn't get an automatic approval on a vacant lot being converted to that parking lot for your project was that this the public safety department had to take a look at how that would affect the neighborhood. So So that's why they made me put the buffering right here. He took care.

So the buffering is he took care of what he was supposed to. Yes. And anything other than that we can't deal or reconstruct what this we can ask. I think what he's bringing up is my standpoint of public safety also the life safety aspect of it of partying having in parking lots as we have a problem here in the city. So we're trying to he's coming up with a solution to hopefully get this parking lot approved with a fence if that helps with the public safety is what I take from that

question hasn't been answered yet about whether it is passed through public safety. So, I'm offering this as an as an opportunity if it's possible and feasible to build this in upfront so that you're not dealing with complaints and issues on the back side or potentially for public safety to say you absolutely have to put the fence there. So my suggestion is once everything we done using a lot is turn the lights off.

Commissioner Henry um I'm seeing that uh Mr. Bullock is uh pretty much jumped through every hoop every last one

that we've uh asked him to. And uh uh I've seen projects come here that allowed them to use trees as a barrier, which is a lot cheaper than the other. So if if our staff is saying that he can pass with what he has now and there's a few things lingering, I would suggest that we approve everything on the actually two things. the and the security fencing. I don't think if the police department has something to say about it, then I'm sure he will address it. But the security plan, that's all part of the police department. Those two things are he's got the lighting in. Those are the two things that are missing. So, I think uh I would suggest that we approve this and quit hindering this person from being a business owner in a place that is nothing there but him and people living in residence in the future. There's going to be a lot of things there and he'll be the first and I'm going to be very proud that we pushed him on and helped him get here. So, I'm suggesting we approve it with the contingent that security uh the security plan and the fence are addressed

and that's a motion. No, I know. I was just going to ask um Justin what is the actual like official recommendation of the staff at this point? Just period. Um, so the way it reads in ordinance is as long as there's enough foliage and trees in between for sound and sight, then you can use it or you can have a fence. Right now, I believe that at least sight would be enough, but when it comes fall, winter time, they lose all their leaves. That's what I'm thinking of through the future.

So, there is a condemned house there. So, if we want to move forward with him just using that buffer right now, somebody moves in, we'll address that as it comes. Yeah, since it's a house. I agree. You put in a fence then, maybe make some money by then. I agree with that. The only other thing would be if there's something that we can do for you to manage that parking lot when if it starts to get out of control, if we can start to something, then we'd be okay with that. What do you think about the suggestion? Uh, we've tried that and yeah, it's

I didn't hear you, Miss Bale. What did you say? I'm sorry. He um Mr. Bullock suggested that in the evening he would just simply turn the lights out, which could work. And I don't know. So, I was asking the staff's recommendation on what it means to just turn lights out because I don't know. It's uh save money on his electricity.

We we then have to get uh other municipalities like last time we had St. Joe, Bon County, uh Spenton Township, all of us police crew cruisers to then come and push people out of, you know, 20210. Then we go to other parking lots until a bad shooting happens and then it finally stops. That's what I'm trying to not put another stop between 202 and Philip 66. He's right there in between where the bad shooting happened. I got a suggestion. Well, what about we can put the poles on each side of the parking um the driveway and chain it off. That way no way nobody can enter into that parking lot.

Yeah, there's always a way that to put in in gate and out gate and that'll stop some of that. But I'm I know we're looking at a problem with people congregating, but if public safety has had this problem for the last 5 years and they haven't did anything about it, then we're going to need to do something about it. Yeah. And and and it won't be to to gate us in or gate us out. Yeah.

Absolutely. And that's where I'm coming to right now. It's a parking lot that's has nothing with it. If we add a restaurant liquor license that now opens this parking lot. Now it's going to be another issue as you're saying. We're trying to stop it before it happens. I don't want a what if a bullet goes through the house right next door when we could have stopped it right now. If we open up a parking lot, it's then going to be an issue. Like you were just saying, we're trying to slow it down right now. That's that's why I'm bringing up the parking lot. There's nothing against Yeah. him opening a restaurant. Nothing at all. Yeah.

I just It's just it's just the parties and violence in between. I live I do it the whole night. Well, I understand that. But what I'm trying to say that there's a systemic problem and it doesn't have to do anything with a parking lot or lights or nothing else. It's a social issue. So, it's something that we're going to have to deal with for our people. But to lock them in or lock them out is not my suggestion at all. So I'm gonna make a I'm gonna make a motion that we have more comments. Okay. One more time. Marshall had one and then Mr. Little has one.

So did I. My comments are directed at you. As the eyes and ears of this commission, have you met all the recommendation that's required to open that building? Um, just the property lines or not? My question to you again is has he met all the recommendation required to open that building? Um, yep. parking spots and lighting that we've gone to.

Yep. I just don't have the where to put this fence or where to start the parking and all that for the survey. Okay.

Are you saying the assessor don't are you saying our assessor don't have his identity line in in in this property? Are you saying that our assessor don't have that or do are you asking him to get another surveyor surve [Music] here so when you go out on the property there's nothing actually telling me where the line is like because usually they'll put up stakes and then you know okay here's two stakes here's his line now we can start to measure that out there and the assessor's records are never adequate But for property demarcation that has to be done with a survey.

Mr. Little, did you have other comments?

The other comment I wanted to add is that I don't think we want to just push this issue about um uh the crowds and the problems that have been coming with that uh aside as if it doesn't count. It is a problem and it is one that we have to deal with. Uh we've held a series of meetings to talk about uh doing that. And in fact uh um it's probably going to wind up u with a closure at 2:00 a.m. along with uh uh the deadline for selling alcohol and so forth and all of the places closed and the lights out. But um uh we don't want to just you know push it as if it's not a problem. It is a problem. It's not just a social issue that we ignore. We have to do something with it. And I would like us to keep that in mind with everybody that comes in here before us

because I've noticed since I've been down here as even as you know sitting on the brownfield and I don't speak for the brownfield as a whole but there seems to be some red lining going on right before my very eyes. and I've been here and I've watched it and I think that listening to the people of this community, they're tired of the red tape. And I I'm hoping that we're doing things differently going forward to to be more friendly to to blackowned businesses because it has not been and I'm just speaking on what I have observed personally myself because there are many that have complaints that don't like to come down here and they expect for me to do exactly what I'm doing right now and that's just to let my colleagues know so that moving forward that we can take those type of things into consideration.

And I hear what you're saying and that respectfully. It's my to the extent I have anything to do with it, it's to try to treat everybody exactly the same fairly and equally. Commissioner Bell.

So in in treating fairly because he is our eyes and our ears, we are not out there. I am asking just that's why I'm asking him specifically for his recommendation because we are not dealing with that and I don't know well none of us know honestly what you are dealing with on a day-to-day basis. However, in all fairness um this is something that I also want to see go through. I'm just looking for the best way to make that happen, which is why I'm asking for your recommendation so we can figure out what we need to do and what the contingencies need to be and put it not just if someone moves in a house, possibly just put a date on it so it's just it's just done. That's sort of where I am. So, I'm that's why I'm asking for your specific recommendation on what needs to happen and possibly we can put a date to that and that may be able to push us forward. The solution has already been to rope that off. Um, which which may work, but I'm asking for your recommendation.

Okay. I just wanted to put it on the record that the building the the the lot that has the building on it has been surveyed and I did turn that in to the city. So, we do have a survey for that one. And on the new parking lot, I did go to the county and they gave me the distance of both of the parking lots that's joined together, how long, how wide the parking lot is. So, I did turn a survey in. Yes. Where it starts.

There's no You could take this out and just kind of guess at where the line is. I'm just asking, give me a line. Yeah, the the question he's asking is really very simple and that is when surveyors do they put a monument at a starting point and that's what you use to know where the property device at and if he does not have that. It doesn't matter what the measurements are. The issue is where do you start making the measurements from? So it still needs to be done and there could be they put little pucks down. So,

so somebody could come out with a metal detector even. I think that's how they'd probably do it now since it's already been done and just restake it. So, are we talking about the property that that's actually vacant right now and allowing this to move forward and him taking care of it? Yeah. Before anybody moves in or anything else happens to the property. just in general just to put the fence up and start his parking because he could be in his property 10 ft and cut off, you know, parking or, you know, it's fair for everybody. It'd be fair for the residential and himself.

Okay. I guess I'm just speaking in general as a property owner and a business owner in the city of Benton Harbor. I would want to be allotted an opportunity to make some money so that I can spend my money on upgrading my business. Okay. We have and only a business owner would know that. We have another question for Mr. Marshall. Yes.

My question and understanding is that this site plan was approved. How did it get back here? it it was approved with conditions with and those conditions weren't met and instead at the last meeting another drawing for another project came instead of an updated drawing um and in the meantime construction had taken place something was built that wasn't on the drawing so there was confusion about which elements belong to the plan that was approved um and there wasn't um a way to solve that in a public meeting. That had to be something that Mr. Bullocks and our staff people had to sort out along with the city attorney. So, she's not here today to speak for herself, but uh there were concerns that she wanted to make sure were taken care of and that's why we did what we did.

One more question to you. To me, it appears that you're dancing around the question. Has he met the necessary requirement to open up that building? Yes, except for the security plan. That's that's that's a that's a requirement. May May I rephrase your question a different way? have if you've not met all of the conditions, have he has he met them sufficient that this could be approved with contingencies for the monument? And yes, it can be. And I think that's what you're really wanting to know, isn't it?

That's what we just talked about. A year for the fence, for the parking lot. We just talked about that just now. Um and then we could get with him and get a security plan for that parking lot. That's all we're asking. If there's something that we can do to if you start seeing it getting out of control, let's just get everybody out or something, we can work for that. Okay. But everything else is met. Yes. All right. Commissioner, the only part that I just wanted to bring up. I wouldn't be able to not say the life safety issue. That's all I'm bringing up. Nothing about not working with them, but yes. Commissioner Bell. Thank you, Commissioner Hel. So, we're saying a year. That's pretty vague. Can we just put dates on that? Can we put dates on that right now? Dates on the date.

A year from opening. A year. Um, he just asked a year from opening. So, you you're speaking of I I don't I don't understand. You're speaking of the property that is abandoned and been abandoned for over 50 years. Rusty and and and nobody knows who owns it or they never give it a ticket. Is that the property you speaking of putting your fence divided? Nobody ever. Yes. That's that was my suggestion. You guys can not that's that's up to you. That was just my suggestion.

That's fine. So a year from opening date and the date for the plan for the safety plan. Is there a date for that? So I talked to uh McInness and we had already discussed that. So, I don't know if he shared it with his team or not, but Mr. um McInness and I had already talked about that doing the day after you all said about the security plan. Him and I discussed that. So, that No, I was going to say so we we we need to see it

to make to to not have that stay out there as a contingency along with whatever else has just been agreed to. we need to see in writing. So if we're if anyone is going to make some sort of motion today, um it will be with the contingencies that will have to be brought back to us at the next meeting to make sure that we've resolved them adequately for Mr. Bulocks, but also for the city to have clarity on exactly what we approved, what was promised, and then what will be built, cuz that's our role here as planning commissioners to look after the public safety of everybody in the city, including you. And we want you to have something to fall back on if you feel like you're not being treated fairly. Um, we need to see what you're getting as well. So it's it's for everyone's protection here

and I think it's important because you know you got to recognize that what you're doing is setting a precedent that uh has to be followed when similar situations arise. Now, if we're talking about something though a year from opening date, there's got to be a clause in there that says except if there's a problem that develops because if a problem develops, I don't care if it's 3 weeks from now, we need to deal with it. You can't just say blanket a year from now.

So, do let me go to what I'm understanding here. security plan is needed. You're saying that you needed an accurate survey needed just Yeah. line lines. So line Okay, I got you. Um but everything else is okay. In place, been approved, accepted. Two things. Security plan and the survey. Okay. Has any lines up on their property? I'm

sorry. Has anything been turned into the asking the city clerk if you have anything that has been turned in as far as a security plan or anything like that? They come out and just mark it or survey. I don't know how that works.

Area. So, if we can if we can approve the site plan contingent to what public safety has to say about uh security plan and he gives him the survey which is another expense but much needed because he needs to know the measurement. and where to start from. So is the I'm asking you the question is that the only two things that right now that Mr. Bullocks needs to be a bonafide business owner in Benton Har.

Yes. Security plan and then property line documentation. Um wait Mr. Bell or excuse me Commissioner Bell asked the clerk a question. She didn't get a chance to answer the question. Um for the record, no nothing has been received through my office. Okay. And did you have something more? Yeah, I did. Just that one is subject to acceptance. Oh, I thought I had it on. I I understood the wording to be subject to an approved security plan. Is that correct? That's the contingency.

That's one of the contingencies. The other being the uh survey, right? Mr. Marshall, I I'm hearing a lot and what I'm hearing is confusing to me. Yeah, me too. Those things that we're talking about contingencies on needs to be in writing so we can see it. At this point, I make a motion that we ret this until we get the necessary documents we need to move forward. I at the edge

I make a motion that we push this forward with the contingency. We have Mr. Marshall is just do we have any support? Okay. So um without support we can't move forward on the motion. Okay. So now M I make a motion that we put this forward to the full body of the elected officials with contingency of the the necessary. This doesn't go to the this commission. We are the full Okay. Okay. So then

I make a motion that we approve this site plan, allow this business owner to continue moving forward towards an opening date for his business with contingency of providing the documentation of what's been asked for the property line as well as security. I think the way you word it, okay, leaves a problem. Let's say approved contingent on approved contingent on the conditions that the security plan being provided as well as right the property survey

survey is submitted to this body. All right. And and and that means that has to be done first. is not approved and we take 6 months to do the other things that has to be done to complete it. Right. Got to ask a question. So are you saying okay with the survey I have a survey already done. So it need to be worded that find the markers not create a whole brand new survey right because we have surveys for it. So finding the markers, that's why it need to be worded. Not get a whole new It's going to take a surveyor to find the markers, I believe.

Correct. But I already had a survey done by Aver Marsh. It's right here. I turned it in. Then they may be able to find the markers for it. That's what I'm saying. If we put it in saying that cuz I turned this in to the city, a survey without knowing where the markers are that it doesn't do him any good. But if you can find that, that's that resolves it. Yeah. Correct. That's why I'm saying the wording is everything. Evan Marsh, the city's engineer. Yeah, they did this.

So, and then another thing is so um if I share the security plan with Chief McInness again, that I shouldn't have to come to the body for approval cuz it was just it wasn't saying that I can have my own security plan. I mean it doesn't mean governed by the city of Benton Harbor. We we if the word is just slightly different provide it to Chief McInness and if they approve it then it's done. But I'm saying this I shouldn't have to come wait a whole another month pay another whole $400 to wait till y'all say that it's been approved.

That's not what we're saying. That is not at all what we're saying. What we're saying is that a contingency will be placed. You need to meet the uh public safety director's requirements for a safety plan. He needs to give Mr. Barton the information to pass on to us and to the clerk to make sure that you've met the the conditions. It's the same thing with the boundary line that has to be marked. Once you have certified to Mr. Bardon that there is a mark that he can verify that conting contingency will be you know removed. But at our next meeting we want to hear from our staff person that you've met those requirements. That's all. Not that you need to pay us another fee. None of that. But whatever you all agree on needs to be in writing. and whatever is in writing needs to be provided to us so that as a public body we can announce to the public these conditions have been met and the project is underway according to the ordinance. That's all.

So one of the questions so if I get done with this building before the next meeting I shouldn't be held up correct. You are only held up until you meet those requirements. You're not held up entirely, but you aren't you chairman. Okay. Um, you have to meet those requirements before you get any kind of occupancy. Chairman, does that mean that if he get this information before the week is out or next week that we can have a special meeting to We don't need a meeting.

The meeting we don't need a meeting. At our next meeting, we will get a letter from before our next meeting, we will get a letter from our staff person saying that Mr. Bullocks has met the contingencies. Here is the the proof of that. And then Okay. So, now I'm confused and I'm trying to understand. So, upon those contingencies, I heard you say prior to this was that he couldn't do anything until we received. Okay. So, so, okay. So if that's not what you said, he is allowed to carry on until we receive that documentation and he's free to

not free and then there won't be a a meeting needed. No, no. If he produces that information next Wednesday and the chief provides a uh clearance that he's approved the the security plan and if Mr. Barton gets what he needs um from Aban Marsh on that then he could tell him he could start then real simple. Thank you. And as he's saying but by the next meeting just to complete our business he would furnish something to us telling us that that was done.

Um you were making a a motion with contingencies. Oh well I thought I did but okay. So, I'll I'll try again. Okay. And I make a motion that we allow Mr. Bullock to move forward on contingency of the security plan being approved as well as the survey of the land between the private property and his business dwelling. Okay. Prior to our next meeting, Um, so and can we need to change that last contingency to to marking

Okay. to the boundaries. Right. Right. Right. To marking the boundaries. Yeah. And the and the fence from that will be what? That a year by a year. a year with contingency of the fence being allotted from the time of opening. One year one year prior to whatever date that is of the opening of the restaurant except if some event occurrence requires

except any emergency or anything else that requires more information. I never heard of them being this long that prior that's prior to that year's end. I think the motion have you got the motion? I have a motion to approve the site plan with contingency of providing the security plan to public safety and the survey boundary line marking complete um with a one year from opening for the fence um provided that there are no issues in the meantime. You're good. Thank you, Tiffany. And we have support. Support.

Let me ask one question about this fencing. Okay. So you're saying that within a year if he doesn't have any problems or any we don't have any concerns that he has to put a fence up. Yes, that's what he said.

Now let me go back to my other statement. We're talking about a property that's connected to his parking lot that's been empty and abandoned for over 50 years. Never get a ticket. Nobody cuts it. And then now you're going to tell me in a year's time this business owner is going to have to do something for that property. He's not doing anything for that property. He's doing it for his property.

No, no, no. But it's it all he needs is a barrier. He can put trees there like 15 other people that I know have come in front of this board to put trees as a barrier, not a fence. So now that's we're trying to put the fence in it and it's not there. The ordinance gives him an option of putting

trees a barrier trees or hedges or whatever. So, I don't want to put I don't want to approve it that we are changing it that he has to put a fence in because that's not the way our ordinance reads. And if I but if if it's needed and inspection goes to him and say you have to put a barrier up, then he has an option of putting a fence or or or trees. We we actually did that to the for the middle. Well, wait, wait, wait. No, we're You've made a motion. Okay. So, I I I want to now

I want to revise it for that fence to be just a barrier between the property lines because because in my thinking, we did the same thing across from Union Park for the business allowed them to put up trees as barriers. That business has a fence as well as trees. Exactly. A fence as well as trees. Okay. But we're talking barrier. And I I think that and that's what the ordinance actually says. You know what? I got old fence. As long as you cannot see or hear

or makes a nuisance basically is what it's saying. So the way the ordinance reads is as long as there's no nuisance of sight or sound. So he has trees and foliage there. Now that's why when I said in the beginning evergreens um I'm not sure of that. Um but when and if there is somebody that moves in there then we could revisit that. But we wanted a time frame stamped. That's where we're at now. So, we're trying to do a year from business open to do the fence. It's up either way. That's fine with me with what what it's agreed up here.

And in in doing so, it would be possible for that to even be revised if someone moved in, which we doubt very seriously, but that would give a a second option. But that was his um suggestion to be revived. That's either way. Yes. to revise. We can we want to revise that's also there was a motion on the floor. It was seconded already. I think we need to take a vote and we asked for a fence because his recommendation was a fence not because we said fence just changed it though. So do I need to revise that?

He said in this winter time when the foliage is gone in need of so the thing that would take care of that is greenery that that doesn't would be evergreens as long as it's a barrier. A barrier is a barrier. And not only that, it has more curb appeal than a fence, actually. All right. So, there's a motion and a second. If Commissioner Adams would like to amend her motion, there needs to be a second to that amended motion before we can continue. Otherwise, we vote on the original motion. And you have to withdraw the first one.

My question was, is that something that's Yeah. All right. All right. Well, on the original on the original um motion um amend it. We're calling the you're you're trying your motion amended from defense from a barrier. Okay. So you're you're is there support for a an amended mo motion? I support.

Okay. It was made by Commissioner Adams, supported by Commissioner Henry. Any more discussion? What are we doing? What is the actual recommendation? I c can you restate the motion please? So the amended motion is um to approve the site plan with contingency of providing security plan to the public safety and the survey boundary line marking is complete and that there is a one-year timeline from opening to provide the buffer along the residential in between where they be. That's the amended motion by Commissioner Adams, seconded by Commissioner Henry.

Buffer. Any more discussion? What is the recommendation? That's just what's the safest route you we're doing. This the safest route would be that's why I said if a house comes in that property would then put a fence up. That that'd be the safest option. The the ordinance just reads sight and sound. Ordinance. Mr. The safest route would be a fence. But but put up around the Your recommendation to this committee is for a fence. That's the safest option. He said

that is the safest option. Is that your recommendation? Absolutely. Yes. I was trying to help with you guys was with was saying if there's Okay. Your recommendation. That's your recommendation. And you have a reason for it, which is public safety. We have a motion on the floor that we have to vote on first. And Commissioner Adams got to amend her motion because it was her motion. Okay. I'll make

So, we have to vote on the motion that's on the floor currently, which is Commissioner Adams amended motion. Um, we need to wait for Manager Little to return. document first before you decision all over the city. Health safety all over the city.

I agree. Every decision has to be based on those conditions. I've seen I've seen this boy do some horrible things. So I decided I'm going to say something.

Got a question sir. What will be the safety issue from having natural buffer and a fence between it's not no cars can go through because the natural tree line a car can't go through the tree. So what would be the safety issue or is this your preference?

Yes. Like I said, it's sight and sound is the way and the way that

they're us right now. This is what's before us. and for the entire community.

What is going on? Um, point of order. Comm

I have. Yeah, I I was asking point of order if I'm able to ask a question. Mr. Bulocks, do you have an issue with putting an offense in here? It's more costly and if I can use the natural barrier, I rather use the natural barrier. But if I have to do it, I have to do it. But I rather use the natural barrier like the ordinance reading cuz that was a question I had for him before uh we came here. I mean, I've been talking about this Okay.

All right. We're we're going to call the question now. Commissioner Henry, yes. Commissioner Hensel. I understand the motion. No. Commissioner Marshall. You can't abstain. I can't support something I don't understand. So my answer is no.

If there's no conflict of interest, you cannot abstain. You have to vote yes or no. Do you need her to read it? I just voted no. Okay. Thank you. Manager Little. No. Commissioner Adams. Yes. Commissioner Bell. No. Motion failed. Okay. Commissioner Bell. I would like to make a motion.

The motion is to approve with a fence in a year. Um based on there being no other issues a year from opening. Also a um what is it? The the security plan to be approved from the chief of police McGinness and also the steel barriers for the survey need to be produced so that Justin knows where they are so he can read through the surveillance. All right. Uh Commissioner Bell made the motion and Commissioner Marshall supports. Any more discussion? All right.

All in favor signify by I. [Music] Commissioner Henry, yes. Commissioner Hensel, yes. Commissioner Marshall, manager Little. Commissioner Adams, yes. Commissioner Bell, yes. Motion carried. Thank you, Mr. Bollock. Appreciate your patience.

So, moving on, we have an update on 400 Riverview.

Is there someone presenting? Yes. Curtis, did each one get one of these? Okay. Um, I did send it out. I don't know if they got sent out to an email because I just sent them out, but Yep. Okay. Hello. Am I on? Please go ahead.

My name is Curtis McDonald. Um, I'm a real estate developer and I have under contract for purchase 400 Riverview Avenue and um, according to the listing on a listing website called Loopnet, the property was envisioned to take the existing building which is in brown on the plan and convert that into condominiums. I believe that plan has been already approved and I would continue with those approved plans or if not approved you know at least in concept I know that that would be allowed and we could tweak it as the commission would require the balance of the site was proposed to have other condominium buildings and my point of view is for this property you can three condominium buildings things. And again, this here's my opinion, my vision for Benton Harbor, which matters very little compared to your vision for Benton Harbor, but here's how I see it, and that is we have enough institutional looking structures along the riverfront. The riverfront of Ben Harbor, particularly in this location, is a tremendous asset to the city. And I would I view it as such. And I would like to maximize the utility attractiveness and the festiveness and the recreational quality to the maximum extent possible. This site is already approved by the state of Michigan, Eagle, which I've dealt with them many times and I forgot what Eagle stands for, but they approve wetlands and, you know, docks on the riverfront. And I believe these docs, Justin would know

this, are already approved. At least I have the approvals. And the pink squares on the um the plan actually represent uh paired homes, duplexes. And we can kind of show a picture of what I would envision for that. And that it didn't get printed out. Um, sorry. But we can pass it maybe pass it along. And I've got another one here. We can start at the other end. We got two. And so they're roughly the same. I just had another version. Actually, this was created with chat GPT. So, you know, AI is entering the the conversation. Um bottom line and in the first floor of the the brown building, we're envisioning some restaurant use and the yellow little triangish looking uh part of the site plan would be outdoor seating and a lot of work needs to be done. We'd have, you know, figure out the parking ratios and meet all of that and that's going to influence the density. The the ground floor of that building is too large to have a restaurant. So, what do you do with the rest of it? Uh, it's not something would be a typical retail destination to have like a store because there just no other stores around it. A restaurant could be a destination. So, there's work to be done, but Justin invited me here to give

you a concept of what I would propose. I'm not looking for anything other than if you yall thought this might be something worth looking at and that I could proceed with. And the vibe overall I'm going for is uh kind of Florida Keys, Venice Beach, California, Margaritavville, Jimmy Buffett. It's it's just something that is elegant but a splash of color. It plays to the waterfront and it's just an immensely attractive place for someone to want to purchase a home. So that you know and I Justin was kind enough to invite me to say all this to you. So I appreciate your listening and I know I'm getting no approval but it's more like a smile or a frown I think. Is you know is this something that you all think I should proceed with? And uh because you know I do have a timeline with my purchase contract. So I guess that's the question.

What are your timeline sir? I think enter my purchase contract I have another uh 65 days something like that. And I guess what I would ultimately go for is some sort of concept approval that this site could be used. it the zoning district is very flexible according to my reading uh waterfront mixed use and I'm not proposing anything that's outside of the parameters of that that use. Let me ask that you give us a chance to uh soak this in talk among ourselves and because I mean it wouldn't be fair to try to get a response today.

I completely appreciate that. Not today but So, so I have a couple of questions, too. Sure. Um, Commissioner Adams, do you have a question? I do. Thank you. And the first one I have a couple of questions. The first one would be, are you the owner of the old bank? No, I haven't contract to buy it.

Yeah. So, I'm aware of the this reminds me of the approval that we did that sits along Jeen uh Clock Park. That's what these remind me of. But I guess we do have to have some discussion because these are sitting right next to the river and uh I can visualize though them sitting back where the bank is to but they're they're nice and I'm not ever going to turn down any development but there's some discussion that needs to take place and I just want to thank you commissioner Marshall. I have one. I don't think we can grow. He's in Michigan.

I Okay, if we can fix that, we you you've got something. We forgot to enter Benton Harbor, Michigan and chat GPT. So, they took the theme and they put in palm trees. So, I understand the point. I have a question. Commissioner Bell. Okay. Hi. Thank you so very much. This is quite beautiful. Um I know that these are not exact renderings because they are um made through

the beautiful life of artificial intelligence. However, the public walkway area um as she said back a bit further because there this is still like public space in front of these houses. So I I I I do love the concept. Um I'm just I guess I'm just thinking how much how how far Yeah. And the the site plan would be more representative. It you know it shows the public walkway and you know the all the proper setbacks would be would be observed that the and the fishing banks.

Yeah. the what whatever the the setbacks are, you know, the required setbacks would be observed and it the the picture of the homes are not intended to represent distances to the waterfront. If you just like cut it off, it's just look at the home. It's just thematic of what we're trying to achieve. That's that that is it. Um, I'd like to ask have um, thank you for bringing this because it's great to have something to actually look at um, and a step forward. It looks like in planning for that area. Um, I have you thought about doing a plan unit development um, that might be your best bet in terms of process and the rights that it would grant to you in return for that public access. um you'll be providing public benefit by providing some waterfront access which is one of the conditions of a planned unit development. Um but in return you also get the option different options for the spacing the requirements for setbacks and those sorts of things. So that the public benefits and you benefit from building whatever density you want to build and the configuration that makes the most sense for that piece of property. have. Yeah, I've in the past I've done PUBGs. Yeah.

Keeping it keeping in mind all things that whatever happens that it won't cut the public off from the water. Right. I would say with that, so we don't send seven different messages, give us a chance to discuss it among ourselves and get back with you.

This is unusual. It's premature. I haven't made an official, but you know, the city Justin and everyone thought, hey, give a preliminary idea what what direction you're planning to take it in. And one more thing, too, is that the waterfront mixed use also allows for hospitality uses, which would be hotel. We don't propose specifically a hotel, but I would not prohibit in the development people that own the homes uh renting their homes as vacation rentals. Also, typically that's an issue if you're embedded in another residential area and you're impacting this. Everyone who would buy in here would know that that exists up front. So no one would be surprised by it or you know and typically people actually like to have that option. It's a way to uh make a little money on their home. And part of the reason I mentioned it too is we also own a professional vacation rental company in southwest Michigan uh called Juniper Holiday and Home. uh were very successful with it and actually having a professionally managed uh project with one vacation rental company eliminates a lot of problems. There's there's enforcement and so forth.

That would be my next question is this wouldn't be something like some type of resort, okay, with resort fees and stuff to tie people in. Okay, these are home ownership, right? and the the pool. Yes, they're all taxpayers and every every home is individually owned and it's it's just that that's something that people like and quite honestly I I see this as a fair number of second home buyers and so they typically like that option. Anyone?

All right. Um, thank you for bringing this to us. I hope you'll your conversations going with Justin and um I suggest a pre uh pre-conference uh our chair isn't here today, but um he also has expertise that he brings. Um I'm just the vice chair. So, um I hope we'll be seeing something that's a step forward um so that we can actually do some deliberating. Right. Thank you.

And feel free to tell Justin if you think this is a a a no- win. It's not something this the city want I've learned over the years. Unfortunately, I have years. You can tell. And um I never want to do anything the city doesn't want. In other words, I think it's nice. I think it would benefit the city. I want to do it right. But you tell me. And that's the main thing. I I do have one quick comment though. I I will add this with my DDA hat on and planning commission. We really do need more home ownership and people living in our city. Yes.

Um we're through our master plan trying to place an emphasis on building homes that will attract people to live here full-time um pay our taxes of course but also to make contributions uh to civic life. So, um, as you as you make your plans, um, if there's more of an opportunity to pro promote that in some way in this project, I think that that would be something that helps the city meet its goals and uh, and helps you as well, right? And and I've given that some thought and

this is community I understand community benefit and community. Oh, big community benefit. Yeah. Right. And

I I understand your point. I do not see honestly. I mean, some of the condominiums are onebedrooms, so they'll have the lowest price point. And so, but it it in and the price I'm paying for the property, it ultimately it will be what the market will bear. And this I consider it a premium riverfront location. Um, typically those homes are not the home that's going to be owned by somebody making 120% of the average median income. It's just it's so just being frank and honest about that, but I understand the point completely. Yeah.

So, um, thank you. Thank you. Um, we're move on now to monthly report of absences. We don't have one. Okay. So, we'll pick that up at the next meeting. Uh, commission comments before we close out.

Yes, sir. I I want to comment the Mr. Bulock's uh place. I've went through the amenities. There was a whole lot of violations considering the business plan that we approved.

He made a lot of violations and we still turn around and helped him out. It's not like we don't want to help him or anybody that comes before us, but there's rules and regulation that must be followed, you know, and that's all I was saying. It's not and I know him from a personal level. I know him and I want to support him, but I also want to make sure that he does what needs to be done because in the past he's had a history of doing what he wanted to do after somebody given permission to do things. I know this to be a fact. Yes.

Yes. Commissioner Bell. Um, so I have a absence for August. I would just like that I would ask that it be kind of under review because I was not technically absent as permission for me to serve was under review. So it was not as though I just did not show up. So I would like it removed if possible. True. I just Are you okay? Yes, I am. Yes, I am. I would just like that it be stricken because technically I mean I watched online but I would have been present but it was under review. We didn't meet last month.

Thank you. Okay. That's why I asked recommen. All right. Now before are are we done with comments? Can we close the meeting? So all right. All right. Uh we have a motion support. All in favor? Who motion? And and she supported. All right. Okay. Commissioner Adams. Yes. Commissioner Bell. Yes. Commissioner Henry. Commissioner Hansel. Yes. Commissioner Marshall. Yes.

And Mr. Little. Thank you. I would like everybody to know if you're not busy tonight around 6 o' t

6 to 8. I wrote a note tokote. But wait a minute.