City Council - workshop

groups that would represent the community and neighborhood representatives, development and design representatives, and business and economic development representatives. The application went out on Friday July 24th and all the applicants were due to the staff by Friday August 7th. I shared the applicant list with you all last Friday and I just want to point out that the is an update that the first page where it says community neighborhood representatives, we do have one new addition. Andrew Strickler is a new addition to that group. And the addition to the last page, business and economic development representatives, the last person listed there is a new addition. That's Al Wall. These lists have been shared with you all, and I believe that you all wanted to look at it and then approve the list for consideration. So, Mayor, I'll turn it back over to you.

I appreciate that. Does anybody have any questions or concerns about the list provided for the three focus groups?

So, this is what's being recommended, right? Yes. In other words, for if there's 10 representatives on the community health plan. I asked Miles that earlier.

I said, is this a contractual thing that we have, or is this just what they would suggest?

The 10 applicants is what they suggested that they have. They didn't want the groups to be too large. They thought they'd have better representative of just 10 people on each one of them.

Did we get any other questions from Miles? Alright, is there any other questions? Maybe I do have one question.

I know I see Jonathan Taylor on here, which I think is a good position, but has anyone reached out to potentially like Curtis Gaston in regards to being a land owner?

I did. I reached out to Curtis, asked him to submit an application. My understanding is they did. I didn't see it because I haven't seen all the applications that came in. My understanding is that he did provide an application.

Can we maybe have like a point of clarification? The only reason why I add that is because like, if not on this list, they need to, he needs to, similar to Jonathan Taylor, be a part of the conversation, particularly with a lot of the things or the proposal for the downtown area.

I don't believe that he was on the list that I was given as far as did he apply or not. So Tiffany can answer that question.

Sure. So there are two different buttons that people could have clicked on the website. I have downloaded all of the applications that were completed and submitted through Formsite, which is the same application software that we use for board and committee applications. So we created a separate one for the focus groups, and that name was not on the list for completed applications. that a survey wasn't completed to share their thoughts and insights. And it could be that folks viewed those applications and determined that that date or time slot may not have worked for their schedule. That doesn't mean that folks that are not on the list don't have a chance to provide feedback. And in fact, we want them to provide feedback and be a part of the conversation. It's just for this one particular time. So we encourage everyone that's interested in doing the online survey, coming out to Plan Palooza to share their thoughts. And then they can even just provide feedback on the site directly for the consultant's information. As a reminder, the focus groups were just for the land development code. So absolutely, the Center City small area plan efforts downtown could include further conversations about what the future of that holds, as well as the Waterfront Village Center.

One more question. Was residency in Belmont one of the requirements? I know there's a number of candidates here that are not residents, but they are subject matter experts in economic development, things like that. Is that a criteria or no?

It was not a limiting criteria, although we did ask them how many years they've been connected to Belmont in the community. Many of the applicants were or have provided design or consultation services in the city of Belmont where they've had direct experience with our code.

I'm assuming the community and neighborhood representatives at least live in Belmont.

Yes, that is correct. Okay.

Did anyone, is no one from the Reed community apply?

What you see is actually with the exception of two that seem to be duplicate represented, everyone that applied was able to fit into the focus groups.

All right, well, if there's no other questions on the consent agenda, I will entertain a motion to set the agenda. All right, second. Second by Jason, all in favor? Any opposed? All right, the agenda is set, and I will entertain a motion to approve the consent agenda. Second by Jason. Second by Mark, all in favor? Any opposed? All right, consent agenda is approved. And that will move us on to our regular agenda this evening. And gentlemen, I will just remind you, we do not have microphones tonight, so I've been advising you to project when we talk. But for the people in the room, just be as loud as possible.

Okay.

Is it still video? It is. So this is still working like it did last week. And so the old line, people that are watching can hear just fine, from my understanding. But for the people in the back of the room, because it's not picking up over the house speakers right now. All right, well, that will move us to consent agenda, I'm sorry, agenda item C1, stack bench mobile application presentation. Gentlemen, do you want to come on up here?

Thank you, Mayor, City Council. I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. My name is Ken Shule, and I've been working for the company for about almost five years now. We're headquartered out of Charlotte, right off of Table 177. And my background, I retired from Charlotte. I see the chief back there. trial of Mecklenburg back in 2017, I was a captain. I did over 30 years with the police department. I'm gonna let you look at Tramington's app while we're talking, and you can pass it around, and we'll go through the process. The cop won't interrupt me if you have any questions while we're going through it. I assume this works, just hit, bam, you go, okay. So, we're talking about expectations, Being out in the public, getting a push notification to your public immediately, this app does, right away. Just to let you know, and it's important to law enforcement, fire department. This app is AWS firewall protected, missed all those security issues that any public safety or city app needs to protect yourself from firewall protection. It's a simple path. It's very easy to use. And if you're looking at the app, in the middle part of that app is the content section. We do not limit on content like other competitors, just to let you know. You can send out information out, as many push notifications through the public side as you want. You also can send out PDFs, hyperlinks, text, Videos through the public side of the application. You're looking at the public side of the application for Cramerton, but there's another part of the application that we are going to talk about a little later, okay? What citizens can do with the app? They can submit tips. A little different from other competitors. You can do pictures and video. And I will tell you, on the city side of it, You know, they see a light out, potholes, running water that needs to be shut off. That's important. But also on the police side, in the fire department side, think about it. We've had several clients in the past couple years that have sent in videos of shootings where they identified the suspect right away and arrested the suspect for actually the person died. It was a murderer out of Marion, South Carolina. Up in Michigan, I assisted the chief sending out information on 19 break-ins where guns were stolen out of Michigan, and that case was sent out through the public side of the app, showed the picture of the suspect from a video, and he was identified within seconds. I was amazed at that. They can stay connected through events. Events are shown on the application on the content side, but also, If you look to the right of that app, there's a little calendar there where they actually can RSVP through the application. So they can put in their email, it'll attach to their calendar, and they know when to go to that meeting or whatever the event is. Let's say that you're doing a park and rec event. You can attach a PDF information. You can send it out, but also put it on the calendar form and list that on the calendar. There's a dropdown. to see the events for the week through the application. Anything that you put on the website for Belmont also attaches if you attach the link to the application. We can do what's called API connections for other things, and we're going to talk to Yvette about that in the future through that. But, yeah, that's there. Pay bills, actually you can click on the link. They actually can pay the bill from the application itself. And they receive alerts. There's a sound alert and there's a number on that alert that says number one if it's the first alert. Notification. And please interrupt me if you have any questions while I'm going through this.

Is there an icon for trash cans?

For trash cans? We can make one.

Can I ask about the payments real quick? Yeah. Is that like? How does that work? Are you able to just plug into our existing?

Yeah, website. They click on the link. They pay through the website itself. Or we can do what's called an API connection through the link to wherever you use for the vendor for payment. Yes, sir.

Can you do like ACX transfers?

Yes. If your existing provider supports that, yes.

Yeah, by the way, this is my boss, CEO, so if I mess up, he's going to spank me. So we'll get on. Accountability. Well, it's huge. It's immediate notification to your public, but also we found out we were in Canada about a month ago now with the FBI doing a conference, and my boss, Anoop, sent out a Facebook just about the conference. Well, Canada blocked it through Facebook. It will not occur sending through the app. You control what is sent out on the application, okay? Just to let you know. Social media can block information that you send out. Not on our app. It goes through. It can connect to Facebook, Instagram, things like that, LinkedIn, through a connection that we set up. We tell clients, let's wait about a month, get used to the app, and then we can connect you. Internal communications. We do what's called an encryption side of that, which is real important for every entity of your city. For instance, the police department, fire department, park and rec, where it's encrypted. So let's say I'm going to give you an example because this is my background. We do a search warrant. We're about to hit a house. I can send the suspect's information. I can send out the diagram of the house. I can do the water files. I can do a picture of the house, things like that. Same thing for park and rec or anybody. You can create as many teams. Yes, sir.

When you gave that example just now, when you say I can send this out, so this is something the PD can send out to their responding officers on the scene? You're saying?

Whoever's going to do the search warrant. If it's the SWAT team, you create a team that's called SWAT team. So you can create 150 teams. It doesn't matter. We don't limit on that. We don't limit on storage space. We don't limit on teams. We don't limit on how much information you send out to the public or the encrypted side of the app. We're the only vendor out there that does the encryption side of the application. So it's a great way to internally talk to your people. If you have to send it out to all Belmont workers, you can send it out or to individual, like police department, fire department, park and rec, things like that, okay? Any more questions on that?

I think you talked about social media. So it can be connected to social media. I'm assuming that means whatever you post in the app automatically can be posted on social media. You don't need multiple.

No, it's one time. Yeah, one time. What's unique about it, when you post it, we create a QR code with your emblem of Belmont on there. And that attaches. Our goal set is to help you market the application. The apps, more and more people will download it in your city. When it goes out, you have the QR code. They hit the QR code. It goes to Android and iPhones. And that's free for them. The cost is the city paying for the encrypted part of the app. Any other questions on that? Yes, sir.

Go back to the payments again. If you haven't paid your bills, Is it able to, like, see that and, like, ping you? Like, hey, cutoff date's coming up. We don't see a payment from you yet.

I'm sure that can be developed. I can answer that. Currently, if you're not actually, the citizens doesn't have a login right now through the app. Okay. We need to look into that.

Okay.

Right now, by law, we can't track what citizens are downloading, where they are, that type, unless they get permission to track through GPS or whatever. And on the tip side of the app, it has exact location. If they click a button that says GPS, it'll tell exactly where they are. The tips can be assigned to individuals. It can be assigned to a whole team. It can be assigned to the whole city. Whatever they send out, pictures, information, it can be assigned. Or let's say it's an emergency. They're watching a shooting right there. They can leave. upload that information from their phone later and type in the location of the event through that application. Same thing, if they go by, they're driving by, take a picture of a sinkhole or whatever, they can upload that information later. Okay?

Yep. So that kind of segues into one of the questions. So, like, let's say the citizen does turn on or allow the app to track, like, generally speaking, like...

If they click the button.

Okay.

Only tips.

So, like, all other type of personal data and stuff like that won't be accessed? Okay.

And that's initiated by the user.

Correct. Only the tips, though.

Yeah. A quick question. What do you know, have y'all tracked your adoption rate in municipalities? So, for example, we're roughly 17,000 people. Do you know when you release this, and here it is, approximately...

Yeah, we're the only vendor that actually tracks that. It's actually seen on the dashboard of the back end, the administrative part. We track how many citizens download the app every week.

You don't have to give me hard numbers, but of a town that you've done before, is it like a 50% adoption rate?

We try to do 45%. Yeah, we try to do. And we... I can show you more, but we actually assist you in marketing. Through the back end, the dashboard, we actually have 12 different slides that you can automate, press a button and automate it. But I tell folks, hit resume, pause, resume, because you don't want to overload a citizen by sending out two a week. So I tell them, do one every two weeks or every three weeks. And that information, it's a poster that you can print out, you can download, You can attach to anything. Or it automates once we connect to your social media. And it's a marketing platform for you. We do have on the application of the app, and you don't see it because you're not looking at the encrypted part, is the employee information, which is very important. You can put in insurance information. For instance, when your employees get an arrest, who do they call? What insurance? What record company? That type of veteran. Or you want to be chief of police and can arrest somebody on third shift, a bad boy, he wants to put a minute video on the application for his employees. It's a very unique application. You can put PowerPoints, videos, text, and WAV files on the application on the encrypted side of the app. And any wellness type information, You know, officers, PTSD, what is it, what to look for, those types of things. Very good resource on the application itself. Questions on that?

Maybe one. Have you guys, and this is probably pretty loaded, but how long have you guys been around?

Four and a half, five years, going on five years.

Have you had any instances of significant data breaches or anything?

No. The only issue we had about two years ago, you probably remember this, AWS shut down for about two hours, three hours. No apps worked. My Bank of America app was not working. To answer your question, Gordon, NIST, AWS firewall, those type of protection. We have the same qualifications that FBI and any law enforcement agency in the city requires.

Can I add one more thing here? Sure. So the primary business, I moved from India to Belmar almost 19 years ago. The primary business is in existence for 18 plus years, and we don't have any data.

Got you.

Thanks. It sounds like an extremely robust platform. It is. How do you avoid, especially for some of those, say, are seniors or some of those that don't use a lot of mobile apps, but obviously would present a lot more convenience to them. How do you avoid overwhelming that demographic? Are there training snippets and things like that that they can look at?

We can attach. We have a bunch of trainings on the back part of it and a cartoon-type video, animated video of what the app is and how they use it. I will tell you, my folks are 93 years old. They won't use the app. I'll be honest with you. They hardly can use the computer. And if they do, God help them. So that type of stuff. So anyway, we talked about the tips. It's traceable. If they put in the GPS and the information, or they can put in their information to contact that type of information.

So this goes back to something that has come up recently. Like if I put in a citizen request or whatever, like there's a pothole, I take a picture of it, put it in the app, I can go back in later and see if it's being worked.

Are you there? So every time I'm asked that, it's because our app, everything's discoverable. What citizens send in and what we send out, okay? So everything we have on there, one, I tell clients, don't delete anything for about a year. We don't use archive. We don't use the word delete. On the back end of the app, there are spreadsheets. So if you archive something, you still can pull it up three years from now. It'll be a spreadsheet. It gives the information, who sent it out, who received it, what you did with it.

Well, I'm assuming it would, see, now you wouldn't identify me as an attorney, so now I feel like I have to.

Never mind.

I'm assuming this information is yours, not whose information. This information is yours. So then wouldn't, I'd assume we'd have to update our record retention. schedules to account for such types of information.

Correct. We'd have to make sure we had the downloads of everything.

And you have access to it on the back end of that. Somebody else? Okay. So anyway, on the application too, there's a weather app. It's a little bit more robust than what you're using now. And it might, because I got a lot of clients on my phone, my life goes nuts because ding, ding, ding, it goes off. It'll tell you immediately if something's going on, flooding, what have you. Is it accurate? Yes.

Yes.

We're paying for it, so yes. So anyway, we went through that. Keep city teams aligned. Again, you can have as many teams as you want. We do not. You know, I'm going to give you another example because of my background. The chief of police wants SROs. He wants SWAT. He wants patrol on third shift. He can give access to his third shift sergeant because I'm sure command staff is not working on third shift. Maybe. I don't know. But it doesn't matter. Everything is at the fingertips, and you can allow as many administrators as you want. If the mayor wants access, the chief of police wants access, you can give them access. We don't limit. But you also can distinguish between, okay, I don't want Ken to send out public alerts, so I unclick the button. That's all it takes. Questions on that?

Well, I guess one of my questions is about what sort of staff do you see typically needed to manage something like this? I guess it depends on how much of the platform you want to actually offer.

When I was hired, I told them it's got to be easy, because first of all, cops will not use it if it's not easy to use. Okay? Very easy. Well, Miles, you saw it. It was easy to use. Very easy. I mean, it really doesn't take much management to do it. I will tell you, most clients have a point person that manages, and then they align whoever they want as an administrator. But it's very easy. Once we get you started and online, it's good to go.

Do you provide training for staff?

We can, but I can tell you, I can do training for all your staff that are wanting to be an administrator within 45 minutes through a Teams meeting. I do it all the time. And they contact me. Hey, Ken, I forgot how to do this. We do that. Or we have videos that actually, a minute video that actually will show you how to do that for instance i forgot how to send out a public alert it'll tell you how to send out a public alert that's just a very simple system okay any other questions we do have other uh apps we have sheriff's app we have police app we have city app we have a wellness solution that we're working with associations our first one's going to be in south carolina with all the sheriffs and Police there, I think there's over 13,000 sheriffs in the city, police officers that are going to be using our app very soon, and fire. We just met with a state North Carolina fire marshal for all of the state.

There's a lot of applications for this, certainly from a public safety standpoint. From a public work standpoint, I don't imagine that there's anything that you probably couldn't do now, but that we can do now with City Connect, let's say that you

could do here in fact you could probably do more here even for public works if we had an alert or something i mean that's that's one of the things that we were considering with staff we do have um you know city connect which is the code red where you send like text emails uh phone calls and this is just another application to to do that kind of information sharing and who was city connect not in addition to um We don't know yet. That's why I put on the staff recommendation that we have to determine at staff level what this application can do for us versus what we already have. And so we hadn't gone down the path that far yet to say this is something that could be in addition to or something that we could internally already have with Code Red. Even to the point of the utility payments, we have not dug deep on how that would interact with our financial software if it would even connect to the to the two um it could be that you know if we did move forward with stack bench and you go to the application where it's utility payments and you click the button it could be a link to our already existing uh payment there so as far as like paying through this app I don't know if we can do that yet. I don't want to say we can because we haven't looked at it internally to see if that would actually connect inside the app.

That was one of my questions, too, maybe one that we need to figure out. Because if it's not an individual or unique login for, like, a citizen, I was curious, like, how do they make a payment for, let's say, their water bill? Is it just, like, if they were to log in on the city's website, essentially?

Yeah, it's like a, you know, connect them to, yeah. Okay, gotcha. So to actually make payments through the app, I don't think that's an accurate statement, but when we looked at it, it would be a connection to their existing link.

Or you would have to have a direct link through whoever you use for payment from the app to that software company.

Do you do that with other municipalities?

Yeah, we can't. It's a connection, actually, Yvette sent us the information on. all this stuff and our goal would be okay can we save you some money too do you really need this do you need that look at that and where things are on that um just to let you know the the process is we get approved you got you sign a contract i get a point person we go through it it's so important that um uh you're you send the information in our biggest Issue now is Apple, because they're very security conscious. It takes from start to finish about two months to two and a half months, depending on how fast we get information in, because we have to go through the security process. We have to develop the application for you guys, and then we move through the process. We do beta testing. We send it out. We beta test it. And then we actually, whoever's the point person, we can beta test with them. If it's an iPhone, it's called a test flight. We want to make sure that everybody's familiar with it, and then we go live after everybody is good to go on it. So it's pretty quick once we do it. Other questions?

Maybe this is more for Miles, but there was a presentation just now, right? There was. Okay. Did we get any feedback from staff yet?

We had several staff members. Uh, we kind of heard the same thing that that you all heard. Um, and. Like, I say, before we move forward, you know, it's not 1st of all, it's not budgeted. And so, of course, if we needed to move forward, we'd have to look at the, the actual proposal and then bring back a budget amendment at that point. But to dig down a little bit deeper to make sure that we can connect like we think we could, I think it's a great opportunity to communicate with the public through an app. If you'd like to be communicated with through an app, right now we don't do that. We're doing pretty much everything else but the app side. So if that's what we actually want to do, then this is an opportunity to do that. But like I say, I would like to compare it with everything else, all our other technology as well, to make sure that this is the best option.

Just adding services on top of services.

But when we met with staff, like I said, we didn't deep dive into how they actually connect. There was some discussions technically. technology, technical discussions between those two about, they were saying all these foreign words that I don't really know what they mean.

I didn't understand them either.

Yeah, and so Yvette said, I can provide you with that information, and so they're kind of working through that to see if it would, how the two connect to our systems, for lack of a better term.

Are there other, I know you said Cramerton has already adopted this, is that right?

They've had it for two years ago, two, three years ago.

Are there any other local area, state, municipal references?

Greenville Police Department.

Greenville? Mm-hm.

North Carolina or South? Actually, when Alan was there, we built our website. Is that Greenville North or South Carolina? North Carolina.

North Carolina. They're doing what's called a private side of the app. They're actually using our app for evidence process, taking pictures, patrolling. Crime scene. Crime scene stuff. So it's a very specialized feature that they're using.

Is it admissible in court?

Yes. We don't touch it. It goes from point A to their police department.

So it sounds like maybe there's certain aspects of your platform that you can kind of bolt on. You can say you want this one or this one, or you can have the whole package or all the cards.

What we talked about is the package, but any added features like what Yvette sent on the email, we're actually talking to our CTOs. We're going to have a meeting once we get together and talk about, okay, what do we want to do? What can we show them? What can we offer through the process?

Any other questions for Ken? How does the payment work? Is it like a monthly fee or a payment?

Unless you want to pay monthly, but it's yearly. Yearly. On the first, it's a, you know, the first part is half. And then when we finish, when we go live, it's the second half, first year. And then the second year is whatever the cost is. It's a population-based fee. It's a staff fee.

So what's the average cost or annual cost of something like that?

We re-reduced y'all's price significantly. Around the average cost, and I don't have it in front of me, but I think it's around $21,000, $22,000. And I don't, was I, it was at 14, almost 15,000 that we quoted something. I think it was four, I got a look at it. Oh, we're talking down. We're talking down. Yeah, if that was, I said, what are you doing to me?

So she told me during the meeting that I knew if you leave in Belmar, we need that discount.

He said that the cost is based on the staffing numbers that are utilized? Correct.

So the less administrators? No, the less staff. People using that.

Well, there's basically two sides to it. There's like a staff side and there's the citizens side.

Correct. I'll give you an example. I just sent a quote out for a big sheriff's department in Texas. They wanted a quote for $250,000 and $500,000. So we sent that out.

So if you have 200 staff and you've got 17,000 population that potentially could have access to this, You're saying you're essentially giving it to the residents for the cost of what? Of the staff.

Correct. We do it very differently from our competitors. Yeah, Yvette got me down several thousand dollars. She did good.

I think it was $4,000 would be exactly. Yeah, it was. It's only close, yeah.

It's a public record. It's confidential.

Any other questions?

No, I think Miles, it'd be interesting.

I don't want y'all to keep my phone, so I'm trying to lock you up.

I thought that was part of the deal.

Thank you for your time. Thank you for coming in. We appreciate that. This is just, I think everybody knows this, but this was something that we were all passionate about, communicating with all aspects of the city. We heard time after time. I feel disconnected. I feel disconnected. And that comes from a lot of different areas, but mainly our side in the very south to Belmont. And looking for ways to alleviate that and put it all in one place. And Mark and I had a chance to be up with him at City Vision. Had a good little presentation there. So it was very interesting. Something that we wanted to bring to you guys. I think it could be, and maybe this is the direction that that we address those concerns with, maybe it's not. Maybe there's something else there. Miles, I do agree with you. I think before we go too far down this and evaluating it, seeing what we currently have, how it's utilized, what the overlap is. There is overlap because we don't want to just get it so we can say, hey, we got it. We're addressing the concerns. That's why I specifically asked about the adoption rate. If they're seeing a minuscule adoption rate, there's no point. But if they're able to help us out, if we get 50% of the people on there in one spot, I think that would probably be a good move. I know that the information goes out. I send it out. Everybody sends it out. But it just never ceases to amaze me that people come up and ask about it after the fact. So finding a way to address that part is important to me, whether it's this or some other thing happening. So I appreciate staff sitting down with them and having the presentation event for your time on this. And I guess we'll continue to see if you guys want to work something up. I don't know what that looks like. Just kind of say, here's what we've got. Here's how we compare. Here's how it would be different so that we can maybe make a better decision.

Yeah, that'd be the next step is to, we actually talked internally about like our Code Red City Connect. If there's a module that we could activate, it kind of does the same thing. We've already got a contract with Code Red for a period of time. We're also moving through a website update. So our website's going to be different in the future. So does that have any options for us as well? So to kind of line all three of them up, we know there's a gap. We don't have an app. and then determine, like, what's the best thing to get this, and then Stackbench may be the one, maybe something else. Until we go through the whole process, we won't really know that. So it'll probably take us several months, I would imagine, for staff to look through it. Probably, you know, get back into Stackbench and see how it interacts with our systems, and then we'll bring it back for recommendation, like, update. It's going to be a recommendation to move forward with.

Awesome, sir. All right, and it was loan to agenda item C2, city properties, inventory, and status and files. I assume that's you?

Yes, sir. This was one of the items that came from the council retreat. It was a parking lot item for inventory and status update of our city properties. In summary, you can see there's a spreadsheet associated with all of our city properties. We have 83 properties. Properties, they total about 247 total acres. And I've kind of designated them by department. For admin, had 10 properties. Buyer, we had one property. Some that were listed as NA, those were whether they were vacant or no active use, we had seven of those. Parks properties, we had 25. police department had one property and the public works had 39 properties and three of the public works properties are no active use and one is unless there's like a partial I sorted the column based on the end use category there so anything that didn't have a use currently I kind of brought that to the top because all the others have a use most of them are associated with utilities or or facility on site so i just wanted to have those kind of towards the bottom frame the ones that didn't have any activity towards the top and one point uh that during the june 15th workshop i know that there was a discussion uh and direction from council to staff uh regarding the crescent um dwight freddie field and uh if we could acquire that property And as I mentioned during the last meeting, that I would provide an update to you all. And so Parks and I did reach out to Bill Karstarpin with Belmont Land and Investment. He stated that he was not interested at this time for us to acquire the property. But he didn't say no and he didn't say yes. He said not this time. So I wanted to let everybody know that update. given that it has to do with future city properties potentially. For the properties that are listed in the end use no category, I also had the Gaston County GIS tax parcels downloaded. And you can see in your council packet, and I tried to highlight the best I could as far as like the topo lines and then the outline of the boundary of where these parcels were. and the information that it's pulled off the GIS. So Mayor, I'll turn it back over to you if y'all have any questions or want to ask any questions of me. I also have the Gaston County GIS website that could be available if we needed to look at anything. If y'all had questions about where the parcel is or some of the ones that I didn't print the GIS parcel for, we can actually pull those up if y'all were interested in looking at those as well.

so someone will have to refresh my recollection of what we were talking about previously it came up in the retreat um what was the driving factor behind getting this other than just to have it all in one spot was there some other conversation we were having about city well i think there were certain parcels particularly some of the larger ones where we were talking about

our future plans, both short and long term. If we don't have long term plans, maybe we entertain disposing of them. I know that was one part of the conversation. There may have been others.

Yeah, I went back and looked at the retreat minutes and it was nowhere did I find exactly where that was discussed, but that's what I recall as well. As far as like we were talking about the gated property request.

I remember we were talking about the gated property. I think it are. Yeah, and I think that's where it kind of snowballed off of. Why do we own 1.6 off of RL Stowe Road?

Is that by the fire department?

That one's kind of across the street right there. It's the first one that you see. It's on page 25.

Is that where we put the Steve Keener sign? No, it's around the bend.

RL Stowe Road. We'll come down North Street. That goes beside it. Across the street from North Street.

Okay.

And I don't have history of why we have that parcel.

I think there's a number, Alex, of those that are like smaller parcels that were just like. We got that in 2015. Do you recall, Mark?

That was the one. I remember we had a list when I first was elected, but I don't ever remember.

We're going to show who we got it from.

It just says deed recording date, January 29, 2015.

That was the only one that surprised me. So page 25.

We acquired that from William John Jasper. 12915. And he acquired it from the heirs of Mage Greer Logan. Match. Match.

That might have been... It might have been a tear... Was there a structure on it before? It looks like there's a structure there. It might have been a tear down housing. It might have been a subtle one. I don't recall that one, but I can look into it.

I was just curious. That was the only one that jumped out to me. Well...

I'm looking at it. I just put up in GIS. So it doesn't have anything going back past. I was looking for the building part, but it cuts that off at 2019. It just has the transaction history. Okay.

I believe your point. So I guess we have the list.

Well, hang on. I do have a couple of questions on some of these while we're talking about specific parcels. The two of the four park drive miles, is that the parcel between Davis Park, like the outfield, like the behind the American Legion and the tennis courts? Is that that block there?

Can you pull up the GIS? What parcel number is it?

One, two, five, seven, two, three, yeah.

One, two, five. One, two, five, seven, two, three.

One, two, five, seven, two, five.

Seven, two, three. It's the larger, the 12, almost 13 acres. I think it's that plot between David Park and... Can you move your box there?

All right.

Turn around. Click on Davis Park.

It just says use description Davis Park.

Yeah, let's take a look. It's just the road cuts.

If you drop down the drop down menu over there, we typed in city parks. I think it's probably the whole Davis Park.

Did you have a, were you thinking something?

So that's not carved out as a separate parcel. And then when you look at it on GPS, it just says that they can section it in between the outfields. The only reason I brought it up is it's been mentioned on a couple of occasions that it'd be nice if at some point, maybe if we could plan to keep the property, if we could create some sort of greenway there and a trail, maybe connecting Davis Park and tennis courts and

Yeah, if you click on the aerial, you can look at that.

The globe over there. Yeah, right there.

But yeah, the whole parcel goes from the tennis court all the way over to Davis Park. So there's some wooded area. There's a parking lot behind the Davis Park tennis court. So it's all interconnected in there. So if there needs to be a path that you're talking about, I think that could be accomplished.

Well, it's nothing to really get into tonight. I just think that forward planning, I don't think that's, for me personally, I don't think that's a parcel that I would want to.

go up is that you've got two big assets there that you could potentially connect at some point down the road i just want to clarify it sounds like it's all one parcel definitely i wouldn't want to get rid of it so that's the whole parcel right there that's highlighted and the woods that you're talking about is the connection between the parking lot davis park potentially if you need a trail there is a

Is that the one that the council bought with

The thought that they were going to put a park out there at one point or something? Yes.

It was bought for park purposes.

Disco.

And then it was, the road bisects it, and the one on the south side was used for Public Works building. Yeah, the little store shed.

So that's going to follow in the line of the Southport Parkway. kind of intersect the Gator in some fashion.

It doesn't further down. It's not that far. It's not going to touch it. Further west there. You see the Gator Road splits the parcel. So you've got the large part on this side of the Gator, then this is our public works storage building right there. Right. But it's all one parcel.

And then what, there's two parcels in between that and Benton Beard 2, or Let me get my bearing. Would that be pit here too? That's the Frank's property there.

Yeah, these two portions right here, this would be like the Pulte-Belmont. Oh, see, that's down west. Two or three right here.

Yeah, I mean, that's a property that I don't know if there are any discussions around future plans for that, but that's one of them.

I was going to say, hold on to it. That gets whatever they do, what they do.

We would understand if not. Yeah. You're going about 27 miles there.

Right there.

There were some drawings made of fields, soccer fields, all that. It just never got anywhere. And then there was a conversation with the county about doing a joint. But that didn't get anywhere. So there's been several.

Was there an issue with parking? You could fit the soccer field there, but then there was nowhere to park. That was right. It wasn't wide enough.

Well, when you think about parks down south of Belmont, so you've got the one in McLean that we've still got to build out, and then I know that there were some discussions about an additional park going into that same vicinity. So do we really want to hang on to 30 acres that may not have a need for any other things? I don't know. to have sufficient park space on that end of town.

Yeah, the Gator Road also is listed in the Belmont Parks and Rec Conference and Master Plan several times. So they've got the Gator Road project already in here regarding like community or neighborhood style parks. It didn't go as far as like Showing like the plans that parks have mentioned what that could be it's not on our CIP, but it is listed inside They have not as far as seeing what their site needs would be to do what they might envision Nothing I'm aware of I'm speaking for parks and rec at this moment, but There's no plan right now. There's

on activating complaints as far as it seems possible. I don't know if we're here to decide that tonight.

It's good to know. I mean, it's one of those things out of sight, out of mind. You don't always think about what's there. It's valuable asset. Yeah, definitely. Any other ones specifically jump out? What I was going to suggest is I mean, I know we've had it for a week roughly, but something to keep in mind is looking over occasionally if something does pop up in the area. You know, there's a whole thing. You have some questions about it.

We'll throw it on the agenda. We'll kind of talk about it.

Thank you for putting all that.

Bring on all those squirrels. Get that all on one list.

That's definitely helpful. I have a promise. Like I told Miles the other day, work our way through those parking lots. I don't see three. So you're going to want chapter 75 regulations of electric and motorized mobility devices. One is proposed. I think Rosie is here. Come on up. Thank you.

So I handed you guys a packet of pads. The first thing was my copy with edits. The second was the new legislation, I believe. And then the third was Mayor Jordan's edits as well. Just a little overview. So these are some of the cities that I went through when I was creating the ordinance. The ones that are highlighted are the ones that I paid particular attention to because it seemed like they fit well with what we had here. The changes that were made from last time reduced the speed restrictions for operating motor-driven bicycles on public streets from 35 to 25, which means they can't be on streets that are above 25 miles per hour. I reduced the adjacent street speed restriction for operating electric-assisted bicycles and motor-driven bicycles on sidewalks from 35 to 25, which gives operators the ability to ride on the sidewalk if the street is higher than 25 miles per hour. I had requirements for operators of electric-assisted bicycles and motor-driven bicycles to maintain a riding position as close as practical to the right side of the highway or street, whichever they're on, for safety purposes and to improve traffic flow. I added requirements for e-bikes and to use standard hand gestures to signal when they're stopping and when they're turning, just to keep things safer and communicate with drivers of vehicles. I add lighting equipment for electric-assisted bicycles when they are operated after sunset, and provisions prohibiting the operation of motor-driven bicycles after sunset to improve visibility and reaction time for motor vehicles. For micro-mobility devices.

This is for a graphic advantage.

Yes, this is where it changes. So we did have, there was a section that was micro mobility devices, and then there was a section that was motorized scooters. So what I've done is I combined the motorized scooter with the micro mobility devices, simply because the majority of, to simplify it, and then also because the majority of micro mobility devices like e-scooters, some electric skateboards, what were the other ones? Hoverboards, the one-wheeled, I don't know what they're actually called, but they usually exceed 15 miles per hour. And there's really no, there's no existing legislation that specifically identifies or regulates an actual e-scooter, e-skateboard, or the one-wheeled devices. It only regulates non-tandem two-wheeled vehicles or devices, which is actually like a hoverboard. In the definitions of Chapter 20, that's considered an electric personal assistive mobility device. It can only go 50 miles per hour. So when I combine the motorized scooter with the micro mobility devices, it just kind of lumped it all into one category. So we're not having to, you know, dwindle it out.

That was one of my questions. So they just, they're just folded into that other definition. It's not like we're forsaking regulation. Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

I'm just not saying you couldn't use micro mobility devices in those zones, saying that those zones, in which those micro-mobility devices could operate, could not exceed 20 miles an hour.

Right. Well, the micro-mobility devices technically don't usually go over 20 miles an hour.

Okay.

So that's what keeps it in that group.

There's no kits yet for them, right?

Okay. So, obviously I removed the term in the definition for motor scooters, or motorized scooters. For the downtown dismount zone, I shortened the south starting point from central and south, south and south, to McLeod and McLean and South Main Street, just because there's more traffic between McLean and McLeod and Woodrow. There should be a chart attached or a paper attached to the back of The ordinance that I gave you has a picture of it as well. So basically these are the five categories of these electric and motorized devices. The micro mobility, the electric assisted bicycles, the motor driven bicycles, which are motorbikes, mopeds and motorcycles.

Lindsay, I'm sorry, could you go back to the previous slide about the downtown dismount zone?

Yes.

This is where if you were on any of these vehicles, you would have to dismount in that section of Main Street? Just on the sidewalks. Okay.

You'd be on the street. Right. Which is 25 miles per hour. Well, 20, 25. But it's just on, it's just.

You're on the sidewalk, you have to dismount. To the sidewalk, correct. Or move to the street. And that goes for all device times?

Right.

Okay.

And that's common in a lot of cities. When I was doing the research, I found that a lot of areas have specific area pockets of where it's a dismount zone for that reason.

Does parking on the side of the street come into play for this at all? My concern is you're going to have these kids going down Main Street on these things in the street. And they do, all right. Yeah, and it's... You're saying you've seen it where it's done like that, but... What you've seen, do they have parking on the side of the street? Because I feel like that's a visibility issue.

Parking as far as?

A motor vehicle parks on the side of the street in a parallel spot.

I don't believe what I looked at was specific to the parking.

What specifically? What type of device are you talking about?

Are you talking about the electric dirt bikes we see? Are you talking about just something all in one? I was reading it as a dismount zone being

Well, that was one thing I brought up last time that I wasn't particularly a fan of what the dismounts are. And I know I agree with you. I think there are other municipalities that have done it. But my main concern with it is either we're going to push people into the street to use them or people are just gonna not use them in downtown. I personally am a fan of seeing the smaller, the micro mobility. Now I'm not talking about the lights, the larger dirt bike things, but the smaller, the hoverboards and things like that, being able to be utilized on sidewalks. Because they go, I mean, they're slower. We can restrict the miles per hour. We can say they can't go over five miles an hour while they're on the sidewalks. But if people were to come into downtown and their kids have their hoverboard, I don't want them to have to go into the street.

Well, could you not exclude like the micros?

You absolutely can exclude it.

From the street. So say the micromobilities or the scooters are prohibited on the street. But then is it allowed in the dismount zone? That's the point. It's allowed in the dismount zone, but you still have to dismount for that section that she's carving out. But if you're on some of the smaller vehicles that are, in my mind, more vulnerable, maybe you say those are not allowed on the street. So you either dismount and you walk it or you don't bring it.

Well, I think that's what's going to happen is you'll just have people not bringing it.

Even just for that small section of

I mean, you're going to be trying to carry it if you're going to have your kids bring it to downtown.

I think we get far more pedestrians in that stretch than we do.

Where my mind goes is the parent with a stroller walking up and down the sidewalk and then some kid on one of those one-wheel things just because they can be on the sidewalk or on the street or whatever. Like, that's...

But I mean, what you're proposing, I don't mean to get you sidetracked, but what you're proposing, with regard to the dismount zone, does it still permit the micromobility devices and the motorized scooters to be in the street? To be in the street. In the dismount zone?

It does, if you choose, because it's 25 miles per hour. And they're allowed on streets that are 25 miles per hour or under. But if you wanted to, I mean, it's totally up to what you guys think would be best. If you wanted to totally nix the, just that, just from point A to point B, no. I mean, it does not completely on the street and sidewalk.

Okay, so let me ask you this. Okay, so if the, is the hoverboards, for lack of better term. Those are the MPATs that the statute specifically carves out. The statute carves out two things. It carves out the electric-assisted bikes, then it carves out the EPATs, which are, or EPAMs, whatever they call it, E-P-A-M-D-S, that's the hoverboard. That's the two-wheel self-balancing. So those are the little two things that our current in-place regulation laws, right now, that's the two things that cover. the new law that's coming in in December expands on the definition of the electric-assisted bikes.

Can I, do you mind if I, it's in this presentation.

Yeah, well, let me talk about the, okay, let me just talk about the Hubbard War specifically. So I know where I'm getting caught up on it is when it specifically talks about those, it says municipal regulation, all right, for purposes of assuring the safety of persons using highways and sidewalks, municipals have jurisdiction over public streets, sidewalks, alleys, bridges, and other public passage about ordinance regulating time, place, and manner of the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices, which are those two hoverboards, but shall not prohibit their use. So that's where I'm getting tired. Are we prohibiting the use?

You're just, you're restricting where they can and cannot ride.

But that's prohibiting the use.

Let me just get to the, let me jump all the way.

I see what you're saying, yeah.

Okay, so the... So that's specific to the three categories.

Are you talking about for... Just for sake of argument, I'm only talking about the hoverboards.

The hoverboards.

All the hoverboards, because that's all that this section of the statute is addressing. That's it. So section 20... Is that the new... No, no, no. Just that 2175.6. that all it's talking about is the whole thing. And it does, there is similar language, which I'll let you get to, but similar language as to the electric-assisted bicycles. So there is also language for the electric-assisted bicycles where the municipalities can only regulate so much of it. We can't regulate their use on the streets.

No, only on the sidewalks.

Snowwalks, greenways, or multi-use paths. That's where we get to say how to use them. Now, the things that I think we're really trying to get to to prevent the use of, which is all those dirt bikes that we're seeing, I think is really what's causing the problem. Under the law as it stands now, they're classified as motorcycles. So the ability of the police department to stop any kid they see on the street on one of those or on a sidewalk on one of those is already there. Statutorily, we already have it because it is, for legal purposes, considered a motorcycle. Do you agree with that assertion?

It is legally considered a motorcycle.

So my point is, that's there. I think, you know, if we want to say, if we want to, and I 100% back this, I don't want you all to get confused. I 100% back the regulation of these electric dirt bikes, even the electric bikes that go 28, 30 miles an hour. All those, in my mind, I consider those motorcycles, whether it's gasoline or electric. I think the statute in a lot of ways is They identify it the same way. Unfortunately, right now, the categories statutorily are very broad. They give us two buckets. They're given us a bucket. They put everything with two-wheel bicycle style in, and then they give us the hoverboard style. That's it. Well, as you said, the new law is breaking that out into these different classes of electric bikes. What this really doesn't take into consideration, though, is those high-speed bikes. electric dirt bikes. Even this, even the new category is not, it doesn't create a new class for that. And it doesn't, it said in the discussions of this, they did not create a new category for them because they are considered and will be regulated as motor skills. So my point is, we don't need to create new local regulations for those things because they are already regulated. So I don't think we need a regulation for those because today, you guys can go out and you can stop kids that are doing it. That was a big question we had last time. Is this something we can address right now? Yes. The answer is yes. Statutory, we can do it. Where you lose me on this, and again, I'm just one voice in the crowd here, but restricting the use of things that these little kids are riding around on in our downtown. I want families moving around downtown. I want them coming in and enjoying and doing these things and to say, well, what we're trying to do is to fix the big dirt bikes that are riding in between cars in the streets and can run people over in a park. They're doing 30, 40 miles an hour. It's going to translate into now restricting kids from being able to use hoverboards that they get at Walmart that are not in any way dangerous other than to the kid on the hoverboard or the adult that tries to get on it. That, in my mind, is where you lose me. I don't want to go that far in the name of trying to restrict these electric dirt bikes all the way down to restricting these micro-mobility, which some of we can't even restrict. There's a lot of Limitations on how we can restrict the hoverboard. Now, is the electric skateboard that different, really, than the hoverboard? Is the little kick scooter really that different than the hoverboard? I don't think so. I think the legislature, when they passed the carve-out for the hoverboard, really had in mind, you could argue all day on this, whether those smaller electric devices fell into that E-PAMP category that they specifically carved out. So that's kind of where my mind, and I fell down the rabbit hole of this like you did. You know, you get into it, and it's just like, this goes over here, and this is already here, and this is changing. And so right now, a lot of it is influx. And I think we're trying to position ourselves to jive with the new state law that's going to come into the books December 1st. But really, the only thing it's doing is it's clarifying the breakout of the electric bikes.

Well, let's let, let's let you, I know you've got a lot left to go through. Let's hear that. All right.

All right. What happens, what happens? This, 1094 didn't drop out of the clear blue sky over the weekend. Obviously, it's going to take effect come... December 1st. Right. But you were aware of it when you drafted the...

It was actually past in July. Okay. I mean, it wasn't official until July.

It wasn't official, but were you aware of it as you were preparing your version?

This one? Yes.

Yes. Okay. So it's not a surprise.

No.

And you believe that what you are proposing is consistent with 1094.

So when I get to the end of it, it's going to be additional consideration for new legislation. All right. So these are the five categories, motor mobility device, electric assisted bicycle, motor driven bicycle, moped, and motorcycles. So this is discussing this. This is outside of the House bill that will be passed. A moped is capable of 20 to 30 miles per hour. A motorcycle is capable of more than 30. So anything that can go currently right now, anything that can go over 20 miles per hour, any bicycle or motorbike is considered a moped, even scooter. And anything that can go more than 30 is considered a motorcycle. So this is an overview of the maximum speed limits for each device. as well as the helmet requirements and registration, license, and age restriction.

This is what you're proposing, is that right?

No.

This is state law allows?

Yes, this is, yes. So currently legally you don't have to have a driver's license or a insurance or there's not an age restriction for the electric assistive bicycles or the motor motorbikes as long as they're not going over 20 miles per hour okay thanks so this basically covers what is in there as well it's um Actually, electric-assisted bicycles can go on any street that a bicycle can that should be in there. Motor bicycles, the motor-driven bicycles are only allowed on streets that are 25 miles per hour or less. And if they're in the greenway, a multi-use path, or in a park, it can only go, excuse me, 10 miles per hour. They must yield the right-of-way to all pedestrians. We cannot be on sidewalks unless there are children the age of 16 and under and then any adults that are with them. And unless the sidewalk is actually designated as a multi-use path, which is eight feet, and or if the street adjacent to the sidewalk is more than 25 miles per hour.

So motor-driven bicycles can only go on streets 25 miles an hour or less.

Correct.

But electric-assisted bicycles can go wherever bicycles. And is that state law? So we can't. Because I noticed that when I was looking at the little chart and some of the provisions. I'm like, well, why? So you can drive an electric-assisted bicycle down South Point Road, and there's nothing we can do about it.

The state recognizes an electric-assisted bicycle as an actual bicycle. So it has all of the right set of bicycles.

Is that the one with the pedals?

Yeah. Okay.

What are the lighting requirements after sunset on this?

The lighting requirements? They are, should be, I don't know if I put it on this chart or not.

After dark, yeah.

After dark, yeah. There are lighting requirements for the electric assist bicycles. But motor-driven bicycles are not allowed after dark because they're not recognized as bicycles. So this is where they can and cannot operate, each device. You can see it better than I can because I don't have the glasses on. So all of them can be on streets that are under 25 miles per hour. The only two that cannot be in the bike lane is the moped and motorcycle. Bicycle, electric-assisted bicycles can be on streets over 25 miles per hour in the bike lane. There are the restrictions for the sidewalks for each of the non-moped and non-motorcycles. It's the same. If you're 16 and under, you can be on the sidewalk. And so can the adult. If there's an adult with them, they can as well. Also, if the sidewalk is a multi-use path, that's eight feet. And if the adjacent street is more than 25 miles per hour. So this was the downtown dismount zone. just kind of an overview of what it would look like. These are the current enforcement provisions that are proposed. This wasn't changed at all from the last month. Everything is still the same.

Sorry, can you give us another minute on the last slide?

So this is where things renew, the new legislation to consider. In July, the General Assembly passed House Bill 1094, which included updates to the e-bike laws. And that goes into effect December 1st of this year. And what House Bill 1094 did was it separated the single definition of an electric bicycle into three different categories, or three classes. Class one is pedal assist only and it provides assistance when the rider is pedaling and it cuts off at 20 miles per hour. Class two is a throttle assist. So it has a throttle and it has pedals and it can propel the bicycle up to 20 miles per hour and then it will cut off once it reaches that. And then the class three, which is one of the big changes, Class 3 is high-speed pedal assist, and the motor assists only when the rider is pedaling, so there's not a throttle that they can push and go. They have to be pedaling for it to assist, that it can reach the highest speed of 28 miles per hour, and then it'll cut off. And with that new provision, the General Assembly passed that helmets are required for ages under 18 for the Class III electric assist bicycle.

Can you say that one more time?

So they have to be under 18 years old and they have to wear a helmet if they are under 18 years old.

What was that? That was a Siri.

So currently it's only 60.

Right, so that's a change, yes. Correct.

So the way, This chapter is being proposed currently. I mean, it already covers classes one and two, though they're not distinctly defined. It'll already cover those two. But to include these new provisions, we would need to revise it and define each separate class and the specifics for the helmet requirement for class three.

So that has not been done?

Correct, not in the one that I've...

can you look at those and tell what class they are?

So generally it's really by speed.

Let me ask you this, and I'm not a professional on e-bikes other than what we're reading here or read over the weekend and whatnot, but is it the same thing? Are you able to take the governor, like adjust the governor on these things to where you don't have the automatic shut off on the e-bikes? I mean, I'm sure there are people who have been

Do that I don't know kids kids that can increase the speed of women and essentially that's what you're doing is reducing the governor.

But as long, I guess I go back, I mean, it really doesn't matter as long as if they go above a certain speed, it's an issue, right?

Okay. That's what it starts to change categories, which is I'm assuming is why they.

classified based on this. Based on the speed, not the... Yeah, but to your point, riding by and saying, that was this or that or whatever, it's almost impossible just to know.

What I've found is if you were to look up the brand, the model, brand, whatever the bike is, it'll tell you what it's capable of doing. Now, I'm not saying that people haven't gone in and made it faster or whatnot, but... Yeah, this is going to be a really dumb question, but are you going to hit it with radar?

Is that?

No, so what we've actually had to do is. Speed check. Some of the, what?

That's valid.

You can check them, you can check the bike by looking up the model and the manufacturer, because it'll tell you how fast it can go. Or there's been several instances where we've actually been behind them in, you know.

You're trying to do that. You can tell, yeah.

I think the highest we've gotten so far was 45 miles per hour. The kid was 14 doing wheelies. So, yeah.

Question. A lot of what I, I mean, I see a lot of the, what I would refer to as like responsible bike riders on like, I see a lot of the electric assisted bicycles and they seem to be, you know, obeying the laws and being respectful and courteous. vehicles and pedestrians around them. The ones that I see that I worry the most about looks like the motor driven bicycles. Are they included in any of these classes in the new law?

Because they're not considered electric assisted bicycles.

So where does that leave us with regard to those? Because those are the ones that I see.

We can regulate them on the streets.

We're asking them on the sidewalks though.

Oh yeah, we can regulate anything on the sidewalks.

And I was talking to somebody again today, and they witnessed the same thing I did. A kid no more than eight, maybe nine years old, coming down the sidewalk on Central Avenue, gets to the intersection at Keener and Central, doesn't even give a thought to turning traffic, doesn't give a thought to the signal, just scoots right across the intersection. And we're going to have a fatality or some serious injury, and then it's going to be gone.

That's why it's important to have these regardless of whether it's repetitive or if it's already state law, at least there is, we have something as a city in place so that we're not reacting to a fatality and we're not reacting to a serious injury.

Don't we have some program that we've enacted with much fanfare over the last couple of years to eliminate pedestrian fatalities?

Quite a big, actually, quite a big.

I can't remember what the name of it was. So some of the other changes that will take effect in regards to the electric bicycle, House Bill 1094 also provides explicit authority for cities to restrict or modify operations within the city limits only to the sidewalk and multi-use path. Cities don't have the power to entirely ban or restrict specific classifications. So whatever classification, let's say you decide whether it be class one, class two, class three, since they give 28 miles per hour. They can restrict specific classifications from sidewalks, greenways, and multi-use paths. It doesn't include the public streets or the highways because they are still technically considered legally considered a bicycle, so they still have the right.

But I don't see anything in the ordinances as you propose that would conflict with that.

Yeah, the ordinance that was constructed does not include this new, the new revisions. So everything in yellow, like the little yellow things would be what we would add.

But like, I don't see anything that in what you have proposed, what you have proposed today, I don't see anything that would ban or restrict any specific categories of electric bikes from the streets. Correct. That would be a decision that's something that... Well, I don't think we could... Obviously, we can't do that. You can't.

That's what this new bill is. It's giving cities the power to restrict... On the sidewalk. On the sidewalk, not the streets.

That's what I'm talking about, the public streets. But there's nothing in what you propose that would restrict them on the public streets. They're treated just like any other bike. I think it specifically says that.

We can't even restrict... the micromobility devices from being on the street? No.

So the micromobility devices, you can restrict municipal regulations for the purpose of ensuring the safety of persons. You can, by ordinance, regulate the time, the place, and the manner of operation, but you can't just completely restrict, like prohibit their use. So you can say you could be on the street, you could be on the sidewalk, but you can't say these are not allowed at all in the city.

Well, that's what we're doing and what you've proposed.

They're still allowed in certain areas. Right, right, right.

I mean, like your downtown dismount zone. You could prohibit mobility devices, even on the street.

That's how other, yeah.

But you can't say they're prohibited in the entire city. Right, right. Well, all right, all right. But these micro-mobility devices, they are not electric-assisted bicycle. They're a different category.

A completely different category. So, okay, going back to the 20-175.6, those little hub boards that I specifically carved out, this is the state law right now. Use of device. An electric personal-assisted mobility device may be operated on a public highway but posted speeds of 25 miles an hour or less, sidewalks and bike paths. The only thing we can restrict that little thing, the little hoverboard from, are sidewalks, greenways, bike paths. You can't restrict it from the street.

Well, that's what we were just covering. Like, you can't make an overall van out of them on the streets, but you can in downtown.

In downtown, you could not restrict them off the street. You can restrict them from the sidewalks, absolutely.

Well, that's what we were just saying.

You can, as long as we have jurisdiction over that public street.

Yeah, you can restrict them from the street.

No, that's not the way that this reads. It says, you have the right to use that two-wheel device on public highways with a posted speed of 25 miles an hour or less, sidewalks and bypass. Then at the bottom it says, what can municipalities regulate? We can regulate, for safety purposes, uh... time, place, and manner of the operation of the electric personal assistant mobility device, but shall not prohibit their use. I don't think that allows us to restrict it from the street. You said that you need to restrict the place. The place, that's right. It does say the place and the manner. Okay, it says, the whole part of that reads, it is a regulation for purposes of assuring the safety of persons using highways, and sidewalks. Municipalities having jurisdiction over public streets, sidewalks, alleys, bridges, and other ways of public passage may by ordinance regulate time, place, manner of the operation of electric, personal, those little things, but shall not prohibit their use.

Right. So you can impose zones in which you cannot operate those in the street, but you can't make a car launch ban of them throughout

Yes, it's a state rule.

Okay, so it would only apply to the ones that we have jurisdiction.

Is it jurisdiction that it's within the city limits? Is that what defines jurisdiction? It's not ownership of the street? So then by that definition, we could prohibit them from...

But we couldn't change the speed limit on that street. We can petition the state to do it.

Yeah, I mean, you can get them off the street that way. We don't want people going third. As long as they have a question of jurisdiction, we can't on our own. I could be wrong. I don't think that's what this does. I think if this is a state road that we can't regulate the use of it, but that's my interpretation.

Got some attorneys in the room. Parks, what are you thinking over there? Parks is going to say, Mom,

saying we want micromobility devices in the streets?

I don't want one in the streets. I'm just saying, I don't know that if we don't give them the option, and again, this just goes back to one specific scenario I'm talking about, it's just the downtown. It doesn't really apply anywhere else in my mind. If we can't regulate them on the street, will they be on the street? If we want them on the street.

If we want people that can't be on the sidewalk, are they going to interpret that as, oh, well, then I have to be on the street. But I don't want them in the street. So you just don't bring them?

That seems pretty... That seems pretty black and white to me.

Where there's a lot of pedestrians.

You definitely don't want them in the street. Because it's already hard enough going down Main Street when people are trying to cross because of the parking. But that's a whole other thing with the parallel parking on the street. I think if my wife and I, if we're taking the stroller and we're on that sidewalk, it gets pretty narrow down there on Main Street. You're going downhill and you're picking up speed on one of these little devices. I mean, you're just asking for an injury.

Realistically, they don't go under 10 miles. I mean, a small portion of them, a handful, a handful will go 10 miles an hour. The rest of them, 15, 20.

The way I look at this is the police department are asking for arrows in their quiver to do their job.

It's not to prevent people responsibly using these devices. It's to stop something that could potentially happen and having something in place so that, God forbid, something do happen. And they look at the city like, well, why didn't y'all do anything? You were presented this. Why didn't, you know what I mean? It's like.

Just so I'm clear on what we're doing, because I think I'm getting a little confused. Based on this graphic here, it says that micromobility devices can go on streets under 25 miles an hour. They can. But for downtown, we are saying we don't want them on the streets.

There's from the Cloud Street to Woodrunner.

Do we want those micromobility devices on our street anyway?

State law allows them.

I mean, the hoverboards are allowed. Well, you just got to be careful because neighborhoods technically are city streets, right?

Yeah. Well, that's kind of like my whole approach to this is like, the problem is like the dirt bike type. This isn't the only problem, though.

Is it the problem? Like, is that a fact? Well, I mean, ours is, I mean, like.

Yes.

That is one of them. I said, is it the only problem?

It's not the only problem. Well, I'm just saying, like, the downtown thing. Because, like, I mean, I've spent a lot of time downtown. The last couple times I've been downtown, I haven't seen anybody out there on one of these things. So I'm like, going back and forth in my head, it's like, is this. Let's spend more time there.

I think, Mark, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the spirit of this is, it's not a problem until it becomes a problem. And when it becomes a problem, it's going to be bad. And do any of us want to pick up the phone in that situation to say, hey, on August 17th, you had a meeting to potentially do something about it, and you didn't.

Yeah, and I agree with that. But I think... The risk, the little ones that are being regulated in downtown, I don't think death is the risk that we worry about there in those scenarios. I guess it could if we're pushing them into the street. It could be. But do you want them on the side? You're saying you would like to see them on the side? Here's my high-level point. I want people moving around in creative ways. I don't want them having to get in their car, drive in, drive to my parking, do all those things if they live on the outskirts of downtown because they don't. It's too far to walk, but they would take these clean electric vehicles that are easy to move around, they're relatively small, to move around downtown. In my mind, that's a low-risk scenario. Again, I'll clarify it again. I completely agree with the regulation of the electric motorbikes, the things that seem to be where the real risk lies. So as far as turning downtown off to all of this type of moving people around, that's just not something I'm a fan of. And I know just from, I think we can split hairs on whether we can regulate them out of the street or not.

I'll start with outside looks so outside yeah we all in agreement with as far as outside of downtown goes so yeah let me sound like certain like this especially the smaller devices you're saying they're not going to be out on Central Avenue or South Point right you're gonna there's basically neighborhood roads that are under 20 miles an hour under your proposed or not 25 I would also think realistically if

like, you're looking for, like, a way to stop people from doing stuff, doing dangerous things. I have to imagine most of the kids running lights and running around in the streets are probably not wearing helmets. So, like, that is probably seems like the path of least resistance as far as, like, if you need to stop somebody, you're not wearing a helmet. No, I mean, as far as, like, if the police see somebody doing something stupid and Rather than worrying about, like, oh, are they on an e-bike or a scooter or whatever.

Those are the ones I've seen. They all have helmets on. They're just acting crazy.

Okay.

Yeah. That's anecdotal on my part, but the ones I've seen, they have helmets on. They got the full dirt bike helmet, and they're getting after it.

Okay. And that's the one without the pedals. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, I think we're all in agreement.

The only clarification question I have on that is there is a couple residents, let's say off of Park Street, where this has been brought up a few times over there near Davis Park area, or sorry, not Park Drive, Park Drive, you know where I'm talking about. And there's been a couple instances where residents have been backing out And have come very close to knocking a couple of these kids on, like, the mopeds and stuff. Or not mopeds, but scooters. Right now, in your policy, they would still be allowed to do that, correct? Because that is 25 miles per hour on that?

Correct.

And there's nothing really you even, it's a tough one because it's used as a cut through. So there's a massive amount of bullying. There's blind spots at the wazoo, right? I mean, but there's nothing you could probably feasibly do about that, right?

I mean, we could do it for one particular area, but not citywide because we wouldn't be able to.

But then when you do it for one area, you're going to have the exception become, yeah.

That raises another point, if you have streets that are under $25,000 an hour and they don't have a sidewalk.

Well, that one would be one. I think Park Drive does not have a sidewalk. Right, that's what I'm saying, yeah. I don't know, I was just curious, because that's one that's been brought to my attention a few times. I don't know how you solve for that particular equation outside of the mainstream.

I don't see the micromobility. I keep going back then because to me that typically is your younger kids on the smaller micromobility.

Mark used one when he was camping.

Mark's the responsible. I'm young at heart. I'm young at heart.

There's quite a few teenagers and young adults that use the e-scooters and then like the one-wheeled. Yeah. I don't even know what those are called, but it's...

I know I'd kill myself if I ever tried to get on one of those.

But I mean, you don't, I don't, and you're obviously on the road a lot more than I am. Do you see that variety out on the 35 mile an hour zones?

Not generally.

Typically, you know. They're typically following the rules. Right, right. Maybe on neighborhood streets. Right. But, so if those were regulated through like the downtown dismount zones, to dismount in that section, even on the sidewalks. Maybe that's sufficient for that class at least.

Yeah, well, that's what council wants to do. That, again, is the very specific thing I don't want to regulate. My suggestion was a pedestrian priority zone in downtown. So what it does is if you are on micromobility, one of those little things you have a kid with you wherever, you can't go over five miles an hour. Everybody under 16 has to wear a helmet, even on micromobility. They always have to give the right of way for pedestrians. They have to notify people if they're coming up around. The things are there in place to attempt.

I'm sure that they're all excellent judges of those sorts of things, like giving notice and knowing when it's too difficult.

Does that not make it harder for these guys and gals to try to actually... There's no way to regulate that.

It wouldn't be. I mean, we could adjust it to make it under 12, under a certain age group that would be allowed on the sidewalks if that would be something more feasible. But like I said, these devices, 9 times out of 10, they're going over 15 miles an hour.

Well, at least give people a way to get around. Because the sidewalks are wider up here, I think. So I would think that

We could shorten it down to Catawba.

And then by the time you got down here, you could scoot around there. I was just kind of thinking in my head, I was like, well, if I couldn't... That's where the narrowest sidewalks are, probably. Where? Like here.

The narrow tracks to Catawba.

Yeah, you probably wouldn't want to ride across the tracks anyway. You'd probably walk there. And then by the time you're over there, that's a little bit more of a detour.

Well, I think to your point earlier, Lindsay, some of the scenarios that have been posed and how difficult or easy it may be to regulate. I think the thing to keep in mind is we're not whatever is adopted is primarily to give you guys a framework to impose some enforcement. It doesn't mean you're going to stand out in the corner and dish out tickets if they're doing seven miles an hour in a zone, if they're only supposed to be doing five. You still have the discretion on the spot whether you issue a citation or a warning or the parents get involved.

It's to have something in place for the situations where people are not being responsible. It's not to completely prevent it. It's not even to go out and say, hey, you don't have a helmet on. I mean, there's not enough manpower, not enough time for that.

So I think there could be some leniency afforded on the scope of the ordinance. It could be narrow. It doesn't mean they have to enforce it narrowly.

You know what I mean? Yeah, I think it's a slippery slope when we say we're going to put things in place and not force them. I'm a rule follower. And if I'm told, don't do this in downtown, I'm not going to do it in downtown. You know, I'm not going to risk it and be like, oh, we'll see if I brought my thing and I probably won't get caught.

It's because I'm not that kind of guy. Do you always go 25 miles an hour or 25 mile an hour?

No, but I didn't have to carry my car to where I was going either. Again, you know, in the down, I'm just talking, that's, again, I know I'm just beating a dead horse here, but That's just where my hangup is. I think everything outside of downtown, I'm fully, I'm on board. I think in that downtown area, letting people use the little things is good for downtown. That's my opinion on it. But again, ultimately, gentlemen, you have to make that decision.

I wouldn't disagree if the infrastructure was there. If you were talking about much wider sidewalks or even dedicated lanes, I wouldn't... It's just even above the railroad tracks and below. I mean, it's an area. You've got the light poles. You've got that odd little area there where you're going around the stove building and God forbid there, right? It's tough. It's not really up until once you get up to String Bean, not beyond your place where it really widens out where you've got good flat visibility. That's my only thing.

Lindsay, was there more to your presentation? Okay.

So, but it sounds like a few things have to be tweaked regardless because of the... To add the new... Right, the yellow portions of the... Yes. Now, my thought would be we can... If we come to a consensus on everything, I'm assuming... we'd still need to add those things, but if everyone's in agreement on everything else, that could just be added as a consent agenda item at the next meeting for our approval. Yes. Yes. So then where does that, so it sounds like we're all in agreement outside of Main Street.

When it comes to Main Street, I think, well... We're in agreement on outside the Main Street area.

What are we? I'm in agreement with everything that Lindsay's presented.

I think there are plenty of tools with that and with current state laws for you guys to be able to do anything you need to do outside of downtown without any gaps where it appears.

Then what downtown downtown discount zone i think we're all well i i don't want to speak for everyone but what are our issues then i'm I want to see what's... Yes, all right.

So, I certainly don't want to see a middle street. And I personally don't want to see them sidewalking down. There's just too much traffic. Again, I think about all the little, little toddlers running around. And you're going to get somebody to knock one of them over and, like, hump forward things. So that's my opinion.

I'm in... current on, like you walk them on the side. Yeah, you can walk them.

If you've got to get from point A to point B, you walk with it. When you're outside of the dismount zone, you hop back on and you get on about your day.

I agree with that. I need to figure out. I agree with you generally on the street, but I need to sort out in my mind whether that's something we can do or not. I know Lindsey says yes. Joe has his doubts. We can

You're saying just so I can kind of take this back. You agree with him on the sidewalk. Right. Which we have authority.

Which we have authority to do. You don't think. I'm with him. I'm with you, Charlie. You don't think we can. I just don't know if we can. It says we can regulate the place. Well, that's what. I just want to investigate it.

And the only device under that provision is specifically a non-dandom two-wheel device.

Yeah, the hook.

Nothing, I mean, that does not include...

Hang on, can I share? It does not include what?

It doesn't include, like, the e-scooters. It doesn't include e-skateboard. It doesn't include the one-wheel thing. It's only a non-tandem two-wheel device, which is just a hoverboard or, like, the segways.

So that's the EPAMD?

Correct.

Is that... Would that be... Would this EPAMD be considered...

micro mobility device do it fall within that in the category that yes in our city category correct all right so you're saying we only are able to regulate that variety not the other micro mobility correct so state there's nothing in place in legislation that regulates currently that regulates e-scooters e-skateboards or the one-wheel things The only thing that is in place is the EA.

Well, it may not be in place, but do we as a municipality, do we as a city have the ability to impose? Yes. Okay. Yes. All right. So the class that she was mentioning with just the single wheel or the hover boards or the non-tandem devices.

That was the only confusion of whether we had jurisdiction over it or whatnot. It's just the non-tandem two-wheel device.

The E-T-A-M-D. Correct. So do we, at a minimum, do we need to have a separate definition for that. That's up to you guys. Well, show me the provisions, because you all are throwing stuff out, and I'm not sure where it all is.

I mean, it specifically says, municipalities having jurisdictions over the roadways. I mean, I guess that's our question.

Continue on. I need to think. I mean, y'all, if you have other questions, I just need to.

So, Lindsay, you're saying that what Jim is reading only applies to the hoverboards. Correct. And what Jim is reading, you're saying that we can regulate.

I'm saying we don't have jurisdiction over a state road for the purposes of that.

What is the definition of a jurisdiction? Because can they pull someone over on that road? Yes.

I'm just telling you specifically the language of that.

Oh, he's going to a quiet room.

If he's willing to make heads or tails out of it, that's great.

So is this where we're hung up right now, everybody?

In downtown?

Determining whether or not we have jurisdiction to do this?

Well, I mean, that's where the conversation is going. Is there jurisdiction, or is there the ability to restrict the use of that specific item on the street sometimes?

What do you guys, I said my piece, what do you guys think?

I have the same opinion with the smaller, again, I keep going back and forth on my mobility devices, but that encompasses the hoverboards, the single wheel, from the sidewalks, and at least in the downtown to this downtown, because I'm down there quite a bit, and it's a lot of auto traffic, it's a lot of strollers, it's a lot of pedestrians, it's seniors. And I just don't trust An eight-year-old, sorry, let me know that there's some responsible ones. I don't trust my seven-year-old on that. To yield to a pedestrian or to even slow down in a railroad track or an intersection for that matter. I see them every day almost. Not necessarily on this variety, but on the motor-driven bikes. I see that happen all the time. The maturity level's not there to be able to exercise the type of caution and courteousness that you need to have, especially in these high traffic areas.

Wasn't there, Mark, this might be directed to you, I think it was before all of us, but the skateboards, when that was a whole big ordeal in downtown on Main Street, someone ended up getting hurt or killed, I think, right? I mean, and there was legislation by that council at that time to impose that you were not allowed to have a skateboard essentially on the Main Street. Like, that's where my head goes. This is the same type of situation. Right? I mean, is that?

Yeah. What happened?

It's now electric, and it goes a hell of a lot faster.

That catapult to railroad. So I'm there every day. So think about me leaving my office building. I've got a thick marble step, step down, and I'm in the middle of the sidewalk, basically, when I step down. And there's not much light. from vision so I always stop and look to see if there's been incidents where it's been you know these kids on the bicycle and once they're going you know they're going flat out and so it's downhill correct so so was there a

Skateboards downtown?

I believe there's a skateboard.

Oh, really?

I believe.

I've definitely seen people skateboard downtown.

Yes. I remember I was working at the German school. But just for my two cents, I agree with Jason and Charlie on this. I think limit them. What did you discover? What did you discover? Did the book of law open?

I will agree with Lindsay. The provision says For the purpose of assuring the safety of persons using highways and sidewalks, municipalities having jurisdiction over public streets, sidewalks, alleys, bridges, and other ways of passage may by ordinance regulate the time, place, and manner of the operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices, but shall not prohibit their use. Belmont is a municipality that has jurisdiction over public streets, sidewalks, alleys, bridges, et cetera. I do not read it to say that you have to have jurisdiction necessarily over the particular public street. The fact that it's a state highway, I don't think matters. It doesn't say you can only have jurisdiction over the specific street in question, whether that's a public highway or a state highway. It just says municipalities having jurisdiction over public streets in general. We are a jurisdiction having, we are a municipality having jurisdiction over public streets. Therefore, we can regulate the time, manner, and place of operation of electric personal assistive mobility devices. We cannot prohibit their use. They're allowed everywhere. We were just saying you can't use them on Main Street between these two blocks. So the fact that it's a state highway I don't think is determinative because it doesn't refer to the specific street in question. We have jurisdiction over public streets. as a municipality, therefore I think we can regulate it. That's my opinion. What do you think, Parks? I don't disagree with that.

Thank you, Your Honor. One further thing to bolster that, a lot of times the state streets refer to state-maintained streets, so not the fact that they're not within the city limits or just They're maintained by the state rather than .

So I think the fact that it might be a state highway I don't think is determinative because it doesn't require that. We fit the definition.

So where do you come down now on the downtown dismount zone?

I'll agree with you all in terms of if there's a concern. especially by the Stowe building. There's some really, I mean, I don't feel comfortable stepping out sometimes as a pedestrian. I agree with you all. I mean, I think it's better to have it on the books. You know, this isn't going to be a police state where, you know, Arthur's going to open up the door to the police station and all these Micromobility devices are going to fall out that we've confiscated. But I mean, think about some of the how crowded it gets downtown sometimes and how crowded the sidewalks can be and how crowded the streets can be. And I don't think we want people darting in and out if we can help it downtown. It's hard enough sometimes. you know, going as slow as you can as a driver when people pop out on something. You've got to always be looking. And so I'll agree with you all on that.

And another thing, too, understanding when I say this, we're the ones voting on this, but who are we to say... to not allow the police department to have the ammunition to do their job. Also, if they're the ones bringing this before us as a safety issue. Right. Especially in light of this. Specialty and safety.

And as Jason has said, and as Alex has said, the minute somebody gets hurt, and it's almost happened a whole bunch of times. Where were you August 17th?

No, seriously. It's easier to explain why preventative measures were taken than to explain why they weren't done.

I know my wife almost got run over just on the sidewalk. I don't know whether it was an e-bike, a motorbike, but she almost got run over. And so I think it's better to have this in place than to have a situation where we hear about, God forbid, a fatal accident. Well, what do we have in place? Well, nothing.

It sounds to me like there's at least a majority. Mark, do you want to chime in?

Well, the only thing I want to add is, would we also do any kind of reporting for the first 12 months? if there was like a number of citations and that kind of thing just to kind of get an idea of what the impact is and then kind of maybe if needed tweak it from there just because so much of like what we have now I think is anecdotal I think it would be helpful that once we've got some rules that We could understand how they're being enforced. That makes sense.

I think definitely we need to do it in phases as far as notifying everybody of the new regulations and things. And then a second phase of where we have the signage in places for downtown, you know, where we need to dismount and things like that. And then third phase would be the enforcement part. We're not just going to go straight in and start throwing tickets around. We've got to educate them first.

Yeah, that's a good point. That brings up another question. What does that look like, educating the public on the new signages?

Same type of thing that we did with the new garbage stuff. We do it on social media. We can do handouts. We can do signage downtown.

What about signs, though? What would be the thought process on that?

So a couple different – So the signs that I've seen have looked like this, and they're actual circular signs, like physical signs. And then there's some that are actually on the concrete where it's painted, which looked really good. And then there's a photo, I think, attached to the map that's included with your, I think it's right behind that chart.

But like how many are you thinking, like placement?

I guess we would have to probably go out there because it would be the best.

Top and bottom and then every side street comes out.

Educating them will be the key to make sure that people are aware because it is a big change. It's better.

No, nothing that I haven't already said.

I'll just circle parks, put it better than me. I interpret that statute. Jurisdiction, as I understand it, that statute means is the street within Belmont's municipal limits within its jurisdiction as opposed to referring to who maintains the road.

For the record, I don't want them in the street either.

So Do we need a vote or is it just that based on our consensus and what Lindsay has put in her presentation about further changes in light of 1094 That it will appear on the consent agenda that at our next, I guess, our September meeting where we can vote on it as part of the consent agenda. Does that make sense?

It does. I don't think you need to vote. All right.

And are we doing two readings of this then?

We're going to criminalize it. Yes, you need two readings.

So it would be on the consent in September regular, and then again, second reading in September workshop.

And when would it go into effect? Just immediately upon adoption. So, like, where I'm going from that is, like, as far as the education piece now, since you've got kind of like a collective guidance here, are you guys going to start that now? Okay.

And there's nothing in the proposed ordinance that would conflict with that December 1st effective date for the state law, right? As long as you don't change your mind. I'm not changing it. It should have been even locked in. We can make our effective date September 15th. Even if the state law doesn't come into effect on December 1st, there's no conflicts there.

Subject to her few changes.

When I finish the final draft, I'll send it out for any edit.

And just to clarify, micro-mobility devices are not on the sidewalk or the street in the dismount zone? Correct.

Well, you can...

Push it.

You can't ride there.

It actually says that in there. There's nothing preventing them from pushing it.

One other point. This came up at the last meeting. Mopeds. Nothing preventing them from being in downtown streets because they can go over, what, 25 miles an hour. Can they pull other vehicles, trailers, vehicles?

There's nothing in state law that says they can't.

Really?

I'm going to say I've never witnessed it. I've seen pictures, but I've never witnessed it.

I've seen bicycles with carts behind them, but not a moped.

This one specifically has a very loud speaker. Yeah. Good music. Yeah.

I mean, it goes without saying, but Lindsay and team, thank you for doing this. You can tell there's been a lot of work done.

Because this went through like two or three revisions before it even... Actually, I started doing the research in January of this year. Because I went through two or three rounds with you all before it even got put on the agenda. Before the talking heads got a hold of it.

It's been rough. But thank you. Let me just throw something here. It's important to me. It's important when we're putting new laws in place that impact the way people live in town. It's important that we have this discussion. It's important that we spend this much time on it and really dig down to where it makes sense to apply and where it may not make sense to apply. So I appreciate your willingness to be in the line of fire as we're going through this. And Arthur, you as well, I appreciate the support in all this and putting the time in. So I don't want you to think that. I'm not appreciative of that. I definitely am. So I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. All right, so anything else for Lindsey?

We don't have anything else on the agenda, so at this point I will entertain a motion. Motion to adjourn.