Planning Commission - Regular Meeting

Let's call the uh planning commission meeting to order. Please. First order of business, the approval of minutes. Have a motion, please. Motion to accept as second. All in favor? I opposed. Abstain. Uh old business. Uh we're going to review a request for approval extension for Wellwood assisted living. Kevin,

um I don't have much. The uh extension from the board of appeals for their use was done last month uh by the board. uh and um they uh at that particular extension will ex uh expire April 2020th I believe uh on in 2026. That is basically their limit now because you you folks will your extension will go past that but since the use expires then that's basically when they have to be done. So, um that means that um you're basically giving them about a eightmonth extension or so. So, um

they would have to have started. They have to be started. I'm sorry. Thank you for correcting me. That that was uh that's correct. They'd have to be started on the on substantially started on the construction. Um and I'll with that I don't have a staff report or anything. It's really up to them to explain to you their their situation. Mr. Chair, I need to myself from this.

Okay, Commissioner Coats is going to abstain. Take a seat in the audience. So, as Kevin said, this is the extension. Uh just for justification for the extension. So, we've been working particularly state highway and uh working with Maryland American on the water connection um for state highway school coming in just down the street pretty there was designord's a uh in detail. There's a a hand box right here that controls the kind of right at the entrance that controls some of the light componentry down near the school. And so to revise that and relocate that box, we needed to coordinate with the school and it took we were probably waiting eight months or more just to get an answer back and forth on that. Um so that was one of the components. The other um the other issue we ran into was there is a water line right here. However, that water line is Harford County's water line. The water and we are in the Maryland American uh service area and the Maryland American ser service area water line is across all the way across the street on 924. Um we were coordinating and trying to connect up with the Harford County water line trying to get Maryland American to allow us to do that after a number of attempts. Um they said that we had to cross the street. There's a number of um difficulties when you do that. 924 is

very busy. Um and there's a lot of utilities there. So it just took a lot of time to kind of get that to be coordinated worked out when after we got the answer that we couldn't even make our initial connection location um that they initially said that we could. Um so there was just a lot of back and forth and a lot of uh coordination with some of the uh providers aware of this while being a 12 month extension effectively extension because

correct so we are um we're uh picking up uh and helping ST who initially presented this um to take this on to final. Um, we've revised the plans and sent them back to Kevin. Kevin's been coordinating with us, provided us the letters for approval since we didn't kind of take this on initially. Um, and so, um, we are hopefully the site plan is going to be signed off and approved here within the next monthly or so, something in that range, give or take.

Yeah. We're going to try it as fast as possible, very soon. So, um, state highways approved us, Maryland American, we have all the approvals that go with everything else. disconnect. Yeah. It's only eight months. Yeah. So, if I'm correct, are we are you showing connected to Harford counties? What are in this drawing? No, we're connected to Maryland Americans. It's right across the street here, right in this this point. Sorry if you can see the mouse. It's a little small, but um all the way to the north there, right?

I I noted that the one on the left building on the drawing, it does show a meter, but I do not see a meter on the right the right building, the right side building. So, coming across, there is a water croc right here. and a water croc right here. Yeah. So, there we go. All right. There we go. There we go. But I'm correct. And there will be two meters.

So, there's a meter right there and a meter right there. Yes, there's two. two circles right there. So because it's two parcels, we have to meter them separately. The sewer line is also has connection point. So we have the sewer sewer right there. It comes out here and then here is located right here where the property line breaks. So basically from this point is a public line and then this is the house service connections. Good.

Jimmy, anything else? Phil, um, Miss Thompson, did anybody did we receive a development agreement for these two lots yet? Okay. Just be advised that you'll need to to do one for the to allow the two lots to act as partners when it comes to any kind of zoning review and zoning violations, anything like that. Similar, they're basically climbing in the same boat with each other. So, um, and if you'd like, we can send you an example. You guys have

We've got It's just like with the the mall and all the other ones. Yes. Okay. No, it's a little different. All right. Basically saying that both if you for some reason sold the other parcel to someone that you have to work together for you. It's very easy because Yeah. You're making an agreement with yourself. Yeah. Right now. Don't fight too much. Feel free to debate yourself. Yeah.

Okay. Thanks a lot. I I just want to make a comment. And I I think it's going to be challenging ingress egress between 7:30 a.m. and 6:00 p p.m. I mean I go through there several times a day and it's uh good luck. Wish you well with the since this is going to be more memory care supportive um I hope people are visiting enough to where we have that problem just as it's generally an issue with you know y people visiting. So, um, we don't expect a heavy heavy traffic load, um, for this location. There's be a few employees and the residents obviously aren't going to be driving, so it really just be family members visiting.

Okay, good. Okay, fellas. Uh, need a motion to, uh, I move that we extend the approval of the site plan and the landscaping plan for I second it. Okay, cool. Call for the question. Jimmy, yay. Phil, I I Okay, thanks fellas. Thank you guys. Appreciate it. Okay.

Okay, Kevin. Um, new business, uh, Taco Bell.

Taco Bell. Um, the, um, Taco Bell has been in in front of you before a couple of times. Um, it received an approval several years ago. Uh, well, let me just go through and read it. Um the applicants requesting site plan and landscape plan approval for a 2700 square foot restaurant uh that would have 31 patron seats inside. Uh special development approval is requested for a drive-thru service use and an outdoor dining service. In addition, the proposed restaurant is within an existing shopping center, Belair Town Center, which requires modification of the existing special development approval. The planning commission reviewed a similar application September 7th, 2023 and pro provided approval at that time. Uh, which has now expired. The new site configuration increases the number of nearby customer parking spaces for the restaurant from 23 to 25 um and expands the drive-through queue capacity from 5 to 10, which is substantial. Um the um see the total parking for the overall shopping center increases by two spaces. That's the two that are on this site increasing uh for a total of 397 parking spaces. The gross floor area of the center increases by 280 square feet which is again being done here with at the Taco Bell. And the total uh for the shopping center is 95,979 square feet. Unloading of supplies to the establishment is unclear. So the applicants advised to address how, when, and where that's going to happen. Uh the shopping center development requires a review of performance standards specific

to the nature of a multi-tenant complex which shares architecture, access, parking, loading, whatnot. The uh proposed design appears to improve vehicle circulation by increasing queuing. Pedestrian circulation is challenged by the interruption of a dedicated access to the restaurant from the main parking area within the center. So whereas the the drive-thru was on the other side, now it's on the shopping center side. Um I'm not sure that's a big deal just because of the way fast food operates. It's not necessarily all walk-in and they've increased the number of spaces on the side where there isn't as much conflict. Um, while it's not desirable, crosswalk pavement markings can be added to the drive-thru west of the pickup window, indicate preferred location to cross from the shopping center. Uh, parking lot spaces and shown. So, that would be kind of as you're sitting uh at the pickup, we there' be a space that would or an area that would be marked so that everybody knows that that's where the ped pedestrians need to cross and so everybody's aware of that. Um, the revised drive-through use eliminates excessive stacking into the shopping center, which occurs right now. Uh, however, there may be impact from cars attempting to go the wrong way by taking right-hand turn U-turns to exit the drive-thru and get back out to the Baltimore Pike and the applicant is advised to talk about this tonight. Um, outdoor dining of 10 seats is shown in the west side of the restaurant. This number is within the allowance provided in the performance standards as 75% of the interior. So, they're in good shape. Annotated checklist for both the drive-through service and the outdoor dining use are provided in the submission package. The enlargement of the patio provided on sheet sheet A1 um must be added to the site plan to provide the necessary detail for that

special development. A development agreement has been executed with the town which assures all owners within the shopping center are bound by all town code requirements. In addition, architecture, site design, lighting, signage must be consistent within the shopping center. The applicant has submitted architectural renderings in color with the indication of proposed materials. The revised uh restaurant design shows an overall building height of 20 feet. The applicant is advised to describe the screening of the HVAC units and other rooftop elements at the hearing because that's one of the requirements of the um uh special development. The exterior facade has been updated from red brick and stucco to the existing building uh on the existing building to gray black metal panels and faux brick on the proposed structure. Staff feels the elevations proposed are entirely inappropriate for the shopping center and the design and color are not in harmony with the center and inconsistent with the predominant materials found in the town of Bair. Comments from the architectural consultant are attached to your package and some of the highlights that I've that staff pulled out is incorporate brick into the facade of the building that is more in keeping with the brick color and prevalent in the town. Steel sighting color should also be should also complement the brick color as revised. Rooftop mechanical equip mechanical equipment should be explained. Uh sloped awnings are recommended and this is by staff not the architectural consultant. Uh sloped awnings are recommended by staff uh at window and door locations to further create consistency with the center and accentuate the entrances. East elevation to be examined based on its exposure to the north entrance of the center. And that actually was a conversation I think you folks had at the last time they were here. The existing vegetation buffering around the shopping center, including areas adjacent to public roadways, neighboring residential properties, appears to be in

place and adequate. However, two shade trees are missing missing within the shopping center parking lot and must be replaced. The refuge recycling enclosure must match the predominant color of the building as revised. Ongoing maintenance is essential to ensure these uh buffers remain satisfactory condition. The current, this is something that you don't have to require. This is more of a suggestion on our part, but the current pavement condition striping is deficient throughout the center. Um most of the pavement markings are faded and need renewal to provide as a a for efficient parking and circulation. Um this is not something you have to include in in your requirements. Uh but it's a suggestion by staff. Um it's the recommendation of staff that the special de development modification for the shopping center be tabled and the site plan be conditioned on revised architectural elevations to be reviewed by the planning commission at a later date. That can also be tabled too if you so desire. That's all I have.

Okay. Kate Pierce, Frederick Ward Associates, Fire South Main Street. Um I'm first going to go through the site plan comments and the landscape. I think it's on. This happens every time I'm here. just a little

um I'm going to address the site plan comments from the staff report and the landscape plan comments and then we'll have our client come up to review any architectural questions that you might have. Um we are many of you remember we were back here in September of 2023 and received approval for site plan and landscape plan and the building elevations were also approved um for almost an identical site layout. The only difference between the two now really is that the building is 22 square feet smaller and the building the architectural elevations have changed. Um, as Kevin said, we increased the existing site from 23 parking spaces to 25. Uh, and our stacking for the drive-thru has increased from five to 10 cars. um for the unloading and handling um of materials that might need to be loaded into the building. That was a question that came up during our last approval. I believe that the unloading would be handled through the drive-thru and on operating hours and that there's a service door that is next to the main entrance on the Taco Bell. So, it would be handled when the building was closed and not open to customers.

Can you use the uh cursor to There is a second service door over here. Okay. So, it's right there that the truck would sit, right? Is Joe, is that how it's handled today, too? It's going to be handled the same way that it's currently being handled.

Um, the last time we were here, there was also the concern about vehicles making a right-hand turn out of the drive-thru. And to accommodate that, we in proposed to install a no right turn um sign and to have markings on the pavement to show that it's a left turn only and that you have to circle around the building to follow correct traffic patterns to try to prevent people from making right-hand turns from the drive-thru. Um as Mr. Small noted in the develop the development agreement was executed last time and we would like you to consider the restriping issue being something that would be brought up with the direct parcel owner the major parcel I think it's parcel one either through a zoning violation or approaching them through the development agreement since it's mainly their site that's the issue and on the landscape plan I think we are down two shrubs from the original approved landscape plan I think everything else is taken care of and is the same as the original approved back in 2023.

Do you have any questions about the site plan or landscape plan? Just a quick question on your parking lot. That's all going to be repaved and restriped. Yes. Okay. Yeah. It's this issue is tough because it's just the overall center has never improved. Um, but I don't want to burden these folks with something that we could probably handle through a zoning violation. As much as I'd like to get it cleaned up over there, I don't see where it's I can understand that.

It's not like Dick's coming across the street. They have an existence. Yep. No, I understand that. And that's a point I was making like what Don was just saying. You know, if they're if you're redoing your whole and that's all your parking spaces and they're properly Yes. Right. I agree. The rest outside of that should be the shopping cent's problem. That's just my opinion. I mean, let's face it,

well, and there's several ways we can approach this and through zoning violation, we can we can accommodate it that way. I know that uh that's sometimes that's your preferred method. I I concur, but I I think this came up two years ago. Maybe with more

Was it on? There it is. maybe with more significant things than just the striping of the parking lot. And I don't want to hold them hostage over over this either, but there's no other way to get a shopping center to improve anything except when tenants want to come in. There's other, you know, it's it's a it's a challenge at the at the opposite end, too. So, but notwithstanding that, you if you're improving your part of the parking lot, that's good enough for me. Yeah, I think I had left it off the recommendations. So, um, you would have to add it if you wanted to. I think there were more significant things two years ago if I remember right, weren't there? Weren't there

as far as the rest of the center? Yeah, there were screening requirements that they have now addressed. Additional landscaping. Yeah. Yeah. Was there any conclusion on that fencing? I remember that coming up. I believe it was installed. The the uh Yeah, I I've confirmed that there the fencing that we required last time has been installed.

Can you stop? One of the one of the big things I had problem with the last time was the since it's on the entrance and it's across from Chili's like right now you have windows on you have windows at Chili's windows at um Taco Bell and it's the entrance way or the gateway coming into the shopping center. Okay. You got to flip it around go the other way and have the cars come around the back end. So, you all agreed the last time to put murals or something on the back side. I'm assuming that that one picture. Yeah, that rear elevation, the bottom corner there, that's a mural. We we replicated it basically on this new building.

Is can we put more on there than just that one little

Well, I'm I'm afraid that the architectural conversation's a lot more in depth than the than the uh the site planning one. So, let's let's have that conversation. Um, so Joe D. Pascal, development manager for uh the Taco Bell. Um so, uh first things first, the the development of the new the reason we came back here after all the trouble of getting the actual approval, which we appreciate, uh is Taco Bell came up with a new prototype and that prototype the reason it forget architecture for the moment. The reality of it is it's changed where um the back of house and the seating has all changed. We have a lot less seating, a lot more back of house. That front corner, if you look at the top elevation, that that entrance way and the, you know, the the clear story up there, that's the area where people are going to be able to come in and hit their kiosks and order and do all that. and the uh drive-thru window winds up a lot closer to the corner as you can see in the second elevation, the long elevation there. Um, so all of that is all operations driven, right? So this new prototype is called KitchenX. I don't know why. Um, and that's what's prompted us to come back. Now, this architecture, um, we put the brick on there. It the original AR one doesn't have brick. So, we put brick on knowing that you folks are partial to brick. Obviously, when I went to see Kevin, then he saw this elevation. He had the same reaction that I had when I first saw it, which was, "Yeah, this is going to be a stretch in a lot of these places. Don't forget these folks are coming out of California, these architects." So, um, this is what they're designing for. Um, so the point is, uh, obviously we understand that the

architecture is a big deal. I have to get this is a brand new prototype. It's somebody's baby out there. I have to get Taco Bell, you know, and get them to come around on what they will allow me to do. So, um, I need that time and leeway to do that. Long as the site plan is approved with the modifications, that's great. And we'll work on the architecture like we did last time. this today. When I got here, I took pictures of everything around there, sent an email to the guy at Taco Bell and said, "Yeah, we're gonna have a problem with no brick." You know, uh, and it probably needs to look a little bit like whatever raising canes or one of those. Um, we have to start there. It's going to be an iteration. It's not going to happen in one shot. So, provided you folks are okay with that. Kevin's, you know, we've we've gone through this already and uh unfortunately

are we'll do it again. Are the people in California aware of the your store up in Glasgow, Delaware? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's probably the nicest looking Taco Bell in the entire east coast of the United States. And apparently that's sitting in front of a historic buildings from something in Delaware. And that's how that got nice red brick all the way around. Looks good. It's on a very busy highway, not unlike where this one is, right on US 40. It's not in a historic district.

That's that's my that's my my dilemma. You know, they listen, they understand the Northeast, even though they're California people, they understand what goes on up here. Uh so I don't think it's a stretch. It's just I have to get down the road with them and and work through some a little bit of the process and figure out what they'll do, what they'll give up, what they won't give up, and it's going to take a while. So that that's really it. I

mean, I understand they have, you know, a prototype that they want to maintain and but at the same time, I I'm just looking at it from the standpoint of there's more as the gateway coming into the shopping center. Just because your building looks nice and new, you still I still want to see something there other than just the back of the store. Understood. And I think, you know, it it's desirable to do that.

Yeah. I like I said, I literally today sent them those pictures. I sent it to them and then I sent it to them. Uh, you know, so we can work through it. And I had when we got our review, I had already put that in motion. So, it's it's being discussed and and whatnot. But, yeah,

one thing I noted when we met before they submitted was that we could not make our architectural consultant available to them until after this first iteration. They have they have to kind of react to the architect's comments so that they have questions for the architect to to to express. Um, so that just to clarify that, I mean, we we could take that a little bit further down the line depending on what you think of the architecturals consultants um, comments. Also, I have a question for you. The images of the mural, is that a placeholder or is that what it's going to look like?

That those murals are the murals that are now available, I guess, if you want to say it with this with this prototype. Okay. We can look at the one we did on on the other plan you approved. Uh you know, we can talk again. Same thing, the murals. We can find one that's more desirable, one that's not, you know, and if and it's going to matter because the building's going to be different, right? It's going to be different color, whatever. So, um you know, I hate talking architecture. Gives me a headache. Anything else, Jim? No, I I was a little confused when I saw the packet and saw the one set of pictures and then I saw that and I was like, "Oh my god." Yeah. Yeah.

And California, you said everything. It stops right there. California, send it back. I'm not going to lie, I had the same exact reaction when the first prototype showed up. I said, "Oh, well, I'm in trouble." Because I'm the guy that has to come and do this, by the way. So my thought had been to encourage us to just table the whole thing because if you don't have approval for the architectural piece, you don't have anything. But is it important in for you in your negotiations with California that you have a an approved plan with the exception of the architectural piece? Yeah, I really need the plan approved so I can then

get down the road on my process. I've got to figure out we were we would have been building this thing if we hadn't changed the prototype a year ago or last year or this year. I need to figure out when that's going to happen. I need to stick it in the queue, figure out when I'm going to close the store, all of that. So, um the the development, the approval of the site plan is really the in my world the critical path. I I know you folks are more worried about architecture, which I get, but

what I mean, the more I look at this, it just it seems like it's going to be a black hole on Route One, and I've already had issues with the the uh Hickory Flats across the street. So, um I just I mean it just looks too dark and looks I compared I mean if you look at the rest of the shopping center it's it's a neutral tone colored shopping center. I personally I don't I don't disagree with you. And I I I'm like looking at this and it's just it's all black. Yeah. And purple. I mean you'd be okay with the red brick though.

Yeah. Well, I mean, just like you said, the one up there on 40 coming back from the beach. I mean, I drive by it, you know, four or five times, 20 times a year. It would fit in down at the stadium right next to Raven Stadium. It would fit in perfect. I can see that. I'm serious. Yeah, that's actually right. So, but we'll listen at the end of the day, I need to rebuild this store. We'll figure it out and we'll we'll do something. Like I said, we've worked through it once, we'll do it again. The rest of the plan to me is better than the one that we approved two years ago. You got you got more parking. Agree. You've got circulation's better. All better. It's all It's all better except for the

color. Okay. Any other questions? One other question. Uh the HVAC units and the rooftop, are those being hidden behind what you're They will be hidden. Absolutely. Under Yeah, for sure. No question. Yeah. Yeah, there's parapets in there. So, but we'll detail that on our on our elevations. Yeah, it's sometimes that that they have that kind of clear Yeah. little architectural Yeah. California element that they have on that one side. Yeah. The ne they call it negative space. I you know, just trust me when I tell you I

uh it kills me the whole thing. Okay. Thanks, Joe. Yeah. Thank you. So, if I have a sense, uh I think we're going to uh move to probably table the special development. But, uh the closed here except for the is not going to be hearing the next time you need to look at architecture all based on what you're hearing.

Right. Okay. But that u we move we will move on the u site plan and the landscape plan. So let's let's tackle the special development first then. Bill, they always defer to you. He's he's got the shirt.

I remembered my glasses this time. Move the uh that we table the special development piece uh for the reasons discussed in the staff report September 24th, 2025 and the architectural consultant review dated September 22nd, 2025. um on the basis that the applicant has not met the performance standards outlined in section 165-53 H2D specifically items uh B architecture site design lighting and signage shall incorporate consistent design elements and C materials massing and facade uh design for the project shall be harmonious with the character of the neighborhood

this is a special related We have a second. Second. Call for the question. Jimmy, I Don Hi, Phil. I I Okay, thanks Joe. Oh, okay. That's right. We now we do the site plan. That's right.

You also have special separate special elements for the drive and you can either table them all or I would just say purely up to you. Well, remember he's got the he's got the issue of he needs a safe height. He want he needs as much approval as he can get to talk to those crazy Californians.

Right. Mr. Chair, I would make the motion that we approve the special development of the drive-thru service and based on the following finding facts, the uses designated for the pedestrian vehicular circulation is coordinated with that of adjacent properties and the public way. No traffic study was required. The drive-through lanes are marked with distinctive pavement markings and/or striping and do not block exit or entry to off- streetet parking spaces otherwise required on the site. Adequate space for queuing at the drive-through facilities is provided. Noise from the speaker system will regulate or will be regulated to meet the state of Maryland standards for control of noise pollution and the drive-through windows and ordering station is located away from the from the front with this south facade of the proposed building reducing the impact of the drive-thru queuing. We

have a second call for the question. Jimmy I Don I. Phil I I think it's probably appropriate that we also note and I'll move that the U the plan is submitted is is consistent with the uh 2022 comprehensive plan. Yeah, you should vote on that. Second, Jimmy. Thanks. Okay, John. Hi, Phil. I I Okay, moving on. uh outdoor dining.

Mr. Chair, I make a motion that we approve the special development of outdoor dining area based on the following finding effects. Amplified music or public address will end at 900 p.m. Live entertainment and recreational games will end at 900 p.m. Outdoor dining will adhere to the requirements of chapter 345 of the town code. The exterior seating is limited to 75% of the capacity of the principal permitted use and any temporary enclosures will meet the provision of section 165-75 C dot and that no outdoor bar direct or service or self-service of alcohol is proposed.

Second. Call for a second. Second. Call for the question. Jimmy I Don I Phil I I uh site plan is left.

Mr. Chairman, I would make a motion that the site plan for the shopping center uh as proposed and restaurant addresses the following. that the submission of a final site plan for signature prior to the permit incorporating the comments from the staff report and include A Department of Public Works memo that's pending. B Harford County Health Department letter dated September f 15, 2025. The Harford County Soil Conservation Letter dated September 17, 2025. Maryland State Highways comment dated September 18th, 2025. Two, the addition of outdoor dining area enlarge to the site plan. Three, correction and correct notes and tabulation of the building area. Four, add additional crosswalk pavement markings to the drive-thru exit. And it's this this site plan is subject to um the resubmission of a revised architectural elevation and architectural renderings. uh review adhering to comments in the staff report and comments from the planning commission from the planning commission uh meeting of of October 2nd, 2025 and the comments from the town architectural consultant dated September 20th, 2025 under section 165-32. CNN4.

Thank you. Second I would just add one correction. I think you said consultant dated September 20th. I'm sorry, 20 22. September 22nd, 2025. Second. Okay. Second. All right. Call for the question. Jimmy I. Don. I. Phil. I. I. Uh, we can do the landscape plan. Okay.

Move. At a minimum, it is recommended the landscape plan for the uh shopping center proposed restaurant. address comments in the staff report and the f and the following. One, submission of a final landscape plan for signature prior to building permit incorporating comments from the staff report and include a uh add a note of referencing the color of the refuge recycling enclosure to match the proposed architecture. B planting of two shade trees within the shopping center parking lot to replace trees previously removed. And C, uh Department of Public Works memo pending. We have a second. Second, Jimmy. Hi, Don. Hi, Phil. Hi,

I. Okay, I think that's it. Gave you all the ammunition we could give you. Thank you. Tell send them to Glasco. Send them pictures. This is what they have. Trust me. Appreciate it. All righty. Uh, how about the uh any of the projects? Uh, yeah. The meeting be adjourned. Wait, before we do that, well, we'll talk after the adjournment.

This has something we need to discuss. Okay. Um before we adjourn the meeting, um I want to revisit something from our last meeting. Hickory Flats across the street. Uhhuh.

Okay. Since the town doesn't have an ordinance that says they can sell the property or sell the project, there's when the project started, there was a concept plan meeting where everybody sat around. They they did their thing. Um the applicant at the time presented everything to the town how they wanted it done. Then the town with all the different players said this is what we would like. So there's various nuances that happen at that meeting that any potential purchaser doesn't know about other than what we voted on or what we correct we said.

They need to do their due diligence. I get that. So, but I think there I think seeing how there is no ordinance and I'm not I'm not opposed to somebody selling a project, but I think something needs to be done from the town's perspective so that when anybody comes in to buy a an approved project that we've approved for a specific applicant that I I don't know how how you go about I mean either through um them coming back to us to say, you know, this is what we expect. I mean, some something along the lines other than just saying, "Yeah, we we understand that that the what was approved, that's what they have to do." But somebody coming in just doesn't doesn't get that

s that's public document. Well, no, I again I understand I I I I understand. I just think either that the town needs to come up with a ordinance, you know, for lack of better terminology, that if if some if somebody comes in and buys an existing approved project that hasn't that has started but hasn't finished, there needs to be something other than a wink and a nod from the town's perspective that we got to follow this.

So, let let me add a little bit of context here. Um, in this particular circumstance, no one has purchased the property. The property is owned by 28 North Hickory, I think it's North Hickory Avenue LLC. It's it's an LLC. Okay. LLC's are operated by members who own interests. Okay. There is a proposal for a company to purchase the membership interests. The owner of the property will not change at all. It will still be 28 North Hickory LLC or or whatever that LLC. Let's back up for a second. Okay. Whether it's a partnership LLC as a subchapter S corporation or as a CC court, the stock the stock people will change.

Correct. The entity I get it. I get it. The entity does not change. But the people that actually own the entity do change. Yeah. Correct. But the the hound can't stop that. Well, I'm not trying to stop. I think I mean if I came with a project I I think we we shoot ourselves in the foot because we'll have an empty lot over there because they can't finish it or don't want to finish it or whatever. But we need I think the town needs to think about the process. It's I'm not suggesting that we stop the process. I'm not suggesting that we stop the entity from pursuing the approval that you've already granted

or whatever. All I'm saying is that just because the entity doesn't change, the players change. Okay. And the players need to understand that whatever we whatever the old players agreed to, the new players have to agree. Oh, yes. That is on them. No, no, I'm But I'm just saying other than other than saying, well, this is what you guys agreed to.

It doesn't matter because the LLC is what received the approvals. Okay. and the the property holds that approvals. So wherever the previous stockholders membership interests leave off is exactly where the new players walk in. They are not given any nods, shakes, whatever. Whatever you guys have approved is exactly what will be built over there if they want to change it. That's that and that's great. I just think that I think there just needs to be another step somewhere in the process. Not that I want to add any more

any more approval or process, but I think somewhere along the line somebody needs to agree to this is what was agreed to. This is what you have to do. The only part of it that they have to do is they will have to renew or withdraw their bonds and file new ones because bonds are a little special. you know, yes, the LLC got the bonds, but the bodies behind the LLC guaranteed payment. Also depends who who who uh submitted the bonding information, whose correct collateral, correct?

Yeah. So, that would be, you know, I already talked to them and I told them they would have to get with the town on that. They would have to uh advise Kevin and Steve of the players, who they are, how do we get in in touch with you, you know, that kind of stuff. Because on paper you will not see anything. That's how that business type of transaction works. No one's going to see anything. I I understand the the entity aspect, but it's not the entity that you're dealing with. You're dealing with with the players behind the entity that we originally approved these these players over here just because it was this entity

and now the new set of players are coming in. And again, this is the first time, but we can't we can't condition approval of a subsequent sale.

And I'm not I'm not suggesting giving additional approval. I'm I'm suggesting that I guess what I'm saying is I think the town just needs to make sure that they're secure. I might be able to help you out with that. as the um existing owners were constructing a deal, putting this out to to for sale, this group came in and uh entered into an an agreement to purchase or possibly purchase. And before they finalized that, they've met with us twice with staff twice and which has happened almost every time somebody's come in and wanted to purchase a particular development because they want to understand what they're dealing with and we have again told them just like Liz has said it is what it is that's what you're purchasing there is no ability for you to change anything

and so they their eyes are wide open without coming back through the board again without coming back in front of the planning commission right yeah and if you and if they did that they would have to meet the code as it exists as of today back then

yeah and so they don't there's they're grandfathered from anything if they want to make any change. Um they uh and so in those meetings we again have made them aware they're they're very well informed about what their constraints are, what their requirements are moving forward. Now in these types of transactions I mean you are talking a multi-million dollar deal here. Okay. Um, in these types of transactions, the purchaser usually has what's called a due diligence period where they're giving a set period of time. In fact, when we met with them, um, the one time they had said, "Oh, we got to get an extension. There's a couple things we got to, you know, keep digging in on and whatnot." So, that that is not a typical at all for what they did. It's actually a a good practice. So, and lots of times their lenders want to see that, you know. So, but to say that the town board might pass something that provided tax and balances, I'm not sure if that would be appropriate for the board to do um you know, they are made aware um of what they're getting.

Well, I don't know. I don't know if we've ever had somebody come in and not talk to us, but I must I know that the folks who don't talk to us, they live to regret it. Regretting it. That's their that is their problem, though. I'm not I'm not to stop the process. I just want to make sure Full disclosure, you just know full disclosure. Everybody knows issues that come back. Correct. There's You have to understand though whose liabilse obligation is here. Who's whose obligation? It is not his to say, hey, I heard you might be selling here. It's here's my file. It is their job to come to Kevin and say they have to do their due diligence. Exactly. Yeah. Ask questions. Yeah.

But I I guess I'm just I just want to make sure that the town doesn't get quote that. Yeah. No, we won't. So, in other words, what Kevin just described, is it in writing anywhere? Are you saying it should be in writing? I think somewhere there there needs to be something in writing. Yeah, there will once they close, once they actually purchase the membership interest, they'll notify the town. I mean, let's let's let's talk about the mall. Somebody can come in and say, "Hey, you know, oh, that happens all the time.

I'm almost guaranteed that's going to happen." No, I'm just saying somebody can come in and say, "Hey, I'll sell you. I'll sell you what was done." So, all I'm going to say is people come before us, they go they go to a a concept plan meeting, they lay everything out, everybody puts their input in, but the end person isn't there from the whole thing to understand the nuances of everything that happens. I know. So I I all I'm saying is I think the town just needs something to say there will be something in writing once this proc if this process ever concludes you you accept the concept plan meeting you accept

you know the discussion from the concept plan meeting you accept the con the discussions well let me back up concept plan meeting there is no obligation there there's no obligation but concept planning. Everybody says, "Well, I want you to do this or I want you to do this." Yeah. But they don't have to accept anything there. But the nuance is there about what what's it comes to us. We're the final arbiter of the of the concept plan and we we say, "Yeah, we like the project. No, we don't like the project." And it gets voted. Yeah. Initially, when this came through, it was gonna it was going to have parking underneath the building

and they ran into problems with the ability to pay for it. It just it wouldn't their finances weren't working. So, they had to go back and change that. So, and that happens all the time during the process, but once it's approved by you, that process is pretty well done. And again, I'm not trying to stop somebody from buying the project. I'm just saying that a lot of things go up to the time somebody can buy a project. So, Don, and the end person, what do you want What do you want the town to do? I mean, you you want them to have a sit down with them or

No, no, no. I don't All I guess what I'm saying is I'm looking for something in writing where they acknowledge that everything that's been done up to this point and they're buying it. Right. And that has happened and that will happen with this in this case. Yeah. How do we How do we even know they're selling it? You don't You don't an LLC. We don't We don't know they're selling an LLC. This is a private transaction and they'll let us know. They'll let us know. They'll let they'll let us know and then we come and then when they come and say, "Hi, I just bought this." They come to you and

we'll sub substitute their bonds out because the bonds are already filed. I mean, it's millions. we would send notification to them saying you've been made aware of this this this and this and um and then that at that point and you're not you're not under an obligation to do so. It is their obligation to comply with the law. Well, yeah. Anybody who's dealing with this amount of investment would be pretty stupid not to come to us and talk to us about what they can do and can't do. And they have. They've done it twice now. And I would imagine you're probably going to get a letter request from their lender that says, "Can you please provide us a zoning letter before we close?" Yeah. So,

so what's what's the timeline now for Hickory Flats? I'm asked that frequently. It's the question I was going to ask.

Yeah, that's right now. It's still in that due diligence period. So, I until they decide what they uh whether they're going to purchase it or not, then it'll probably stay there. Now, we've also at some point um our DPW has kept the tabs on construction and if construction stops for a certain amount of time, then um they're going to be uh they're going to have problems with their building permit status. So I that's not my area that's public works but uh that will be something to complete. Right. Yes.

So that's where the town would have some financial leverage. I' honestly Don I'd be concerned about recommending the board to do an ordinance for such things because then that kind of transfers the burden to the town about I think we have a practice of full disclosure. All I'm all I'm saying is I understand what you're saying, but I mean I don't know. Well, I don't know. I mean, the only reason why I say in the ordinance is because then that way it's cut dry. You got to do this if you're buying. But then that's that transfers the burden to the town.

Oh, sure. You didn't you didn't follow your own ordinance. Somebody comes up with something. Well, you didn't tell me about that. You know, that's these are big boys and girls that they're buying a property. I'd be honestly more concerned about some small approval, some regular Joe Blow, Joe Blow, the little restaurant we approved or even um I'm not even sure what the process is when somebody because this came up not too long ago when somebody purchases a um historic district designated home, who's obligated to notify them that this is what you're buying. This is what you can do and can't do. This came up right up the street. Yeah. right up the street from us. Yeah. Um I'd be more concerned with those levels.

Well, but they they don't. In fact, that's why we were trying to put plaques on everything and some places they don't want a plaque saying that their building is historic and and then they'll sell it to somebody who's unsuspecting. And unfortunately because of the way these came into the historic um district the uh the legislation they weren't putting it they weren't recording it in the land records. So you have all these that are unrecorded for

and uh Liz and I have looked at different 10 different ways to try to get the the the status of these properties to be uh to come up whenever somebody does a title search. It just doesn't there's no way that we can figure out how to do it. No. Unless the county um because there's multiple disclosure requirements under law on under state law and some under county law like Prince George's County. I think they have a great code and their code says if you sell a property that is subject to historic preservation. It is the seller's obligation to notify the prospective bar, you know, buyer.

And we don't have that code. There's no obligation in the law for anyone to tell anyone. It's automatic if uh the question is is whether or not the buyer or the buyer's agent calls Kevin and says, "Hey, is this in the historic?" And I'm like, "How many times does that happen, Kev?" Never. Exactly. So, so my second my second thing with Hickory Flats is you talk to the LLC about having that at least string trim the place and make it look somewhat presentable so there's weeds and everything not growing all over the place. Sure. Great. That would be good. Did they back fell? There is a That what did they back fill? Back fill. Yeah, back fill all the footers. It seems like kind of leveled out. I don't know. I haven't been up there to look.

Okay. I was just curious if you knew. I assume. Does the town have the inspectors or is it the county doing the inspections? County. Finished. Yeah. Done. Phil, you wanted to close the meeting. Well, we we started a practice I think last month that when before we since we get fairly informal when we're going through these pieces that we adjourn the meeting um okay and then have that conversation isn't that do I recall that I think that's our desire because there's a lot of things that are said right that are not that are a little bit informal right

okay so I move the meeting adjourn second all those in favor I meeting adjourned