About this meeting
- Government Body
- Common Council
- Meeting Type
- Common Council
- Location
- Appleton, WI
- Meeting Date
- December 17, 2025
Transcript
98 sections (from 131 segments)
Good evening. I now call to order the Wednesday, 12/17/2025 meeting of the Appleton Common Council. Please rise for the invocation, which will be delivered by Alder Hartzheim.
Thank you, chair. Today's invocation is a poem called A Christmas Prayer. Now please don't get too worked up about the title as this poem is by a Unitarian Universalism minister named Maureen Killeran. So it's not, let's just say, traditional Christian theology. Regardless, I think it's fitting for tonight, and I hope that you will agree.
A Christmas prayer. Not gold, not myrrh, nor even frankincense, what I have for you this season, but simple gifts, the ones that are the hardest to find, the ones that are perfect, even for those who have everything, if such there be. I would, if I could, have for you the gift of courage, the strength to face the gauntlets only you can name, and the firmness in your heart to know that you, yes, you, can be a bearer of the quiet dignity that is the human glorified. I would, if by my intention I could make it happen, have for you the gift of connection, a sense of standing on the hinge of time, touching past and future, standing with the certainty that you, yes, you, are the point where it all comes together. I would, if wishing could make it so, have for you the gift of community, a nucleus of love and challenge to convince you in your soul that you, yes, you, are a source of light in a world too long believing in the dark.
Not gold, nor myrrh, nor even frankincense would I have for you this season, but simple gifts, the ones that are the hardest to find, the ones that are perfect, even for those who have everything, if such there be.
Please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. I pledge allegiance to the flag, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice. We do have Alder Heffernan with us. Let me see. Switch inputs, see if that's working. There it is. Okay. Right. Roll call of Alderpersons.
All are represented with the exceptions of Alderpersons Smith and Jones who are excused. Aldersperson Heffernan
is attending virtually. Okay. Roll call of officers and department heads.
All are represented. Very good.
I need a motion to approve the minutes of the previous meeting. We have a motion and a second to approve. Any discussion of the minutes? Seeing none, please cast your votes. Oh, aye. Okay, we got you. Alder Dougherty? Oh,
there.
I think he's in there now. Alder Van Zeeland, your vote nay. All right. That motion passes 13 to zero. The minutes have been approved.
All right. Business presented by the mayor. I've got a few things to take care of this evening. First, I want to welcome up Corey Otis. He's going to present the Downtown Appleton Christmas Parade Awards.
Happy holidays, everyone. On November hosted the fifty fourth Downtown Appleton Christmas Parade. It was 45 degrees. We got a little damp, but when Santa and missus Claus came around the corner, the skies parted, so to speak, and it was dry, and it was beautiful, and it was a great night. It was a magical night once again. So I want to thank the mayor and his office. I want to thank the common council obviously and different departments, especially APD for your support. We couldn't do it without you and we're really proud of the event. I do have to tell you one thing. I do want to brag about one thing before we give the awards.
We're televised on WFRV live and we're also live streamed WFRV plus and on Facebook. There was a reality show competition final at the same time as our Christmas parade. We beat them in this market in the ratings. Okay? Number one. Alright. So I can brag about that. Alright. So let's hand out these awards. Let's start with you choose.
Alright. We're gonna do the best commercial entry. These guys have been with us for a couple of years and they've really stepped up each year. And this one goes to the Appleton Downtown Incorporated best commercial entry goes to Bobbers Bar. Bobbers Bar.
Eric and I will make sure this gets to Bobbers Bar. The lengths we go to. Alright. This one is the Christmas parade trophy, best non commercial entry. This one actually had the float cast, which was broadcast or live streamed on WFRB plus, Elaine Wells, and who else is on there? Lisa Malik. This one goes and this is a a lot of hands came together to put this one, out on the street. The Salvation Army Fox Cities. Come on up and get your trophy.
Alright. I'm Crystal Knudson. I'm the director of Salvation Army. Fox City's here. And we're really excited this year.
We could not have won this award and been even in the parade doing really exciting things and making the skies part the way they have without the many hands make for light work. So we have Appian, who has helped support us in making this happen. Fox City's builders, who drove us through the parade and gave us the space in order to build the float. And, of course, wedding perfect who, tagline is, if you can dream it, they can build it. So together, we were able to bring together, joy for the children for Toyland theme, but also, bring a good message to the community in what it's all about when many hands make for light work for those the most needy in the area. So thank you.
Alright. Thanks everybody. We've got one more award, and I misspoke. This is the Bernie Pearlman Memorial Trophy. Bernie Pearlman, an icon in Downtown Appleton, part of the original Christmas parade group. This one is seen through the eyes of a child, so we actually have kid voters select this winner. This group has been with us for a couple of years, and it's really impressive what they put together. I know Eric is here. This one goes to Eric's Winter and Landscape Service. Come on down.
Again, I wanna thank the city, the mayor's office, common council, all of the departments. Next year is a pretty big one, 2026. The next time we see you, we'll be talking about the Memorial Day Parade, and it will also be, the two hundred fiftieth birthday of America. We will celebrate the seventy fifth Appleton Flag Day Parade on the second Saturday in June. So I will see you next summer. Thank you once again.
Corey, stick around for a second here. While you're here, we want to thank you and our intrepid parade committee for all of their work, and of course, Elder Hartzheim as council's representative to the committee. So I want to thank all of you for your leadership and making our parades happen. We very much appreciate it. Thank you.
All
right. Got a couple of business items here. First is twenty five -fifteen twenty six, appointment of election inspectors for the twenty twenty six-twenty twenty seven election cycle. We have a motion and a second to approve. Is there any discussion?
Alright. Hearing none, please cast your votes. There it is. Alright. Alder Heffernan votes aye.
All right. The motion passes twelve-zero and Alder Hartzheim will note your abstention. All right. Next is twenty five-fifteen twenty five Community Development Block Grant Advisory Board reappointment. We have a motion and a second to approve. Any discussion? All right, hearing none, please cast your votes.
There you go.
That motion passes 13 to zero. Item has been approved. We thank Jenny for continuing in her volunteer service. All right. Before we conclude, business presented by the mayor, a couple of other things, bonus items for all of you.
First of which is I want to share some news about our finance department. Director Ohman has decided that she would like to move into a new position within the finance department. So she will be moving into the enterprise account manager position in the finance department. That's a position that's been open and a challenging hiring process for us. And so we will begin a search for a new director of finance.
We're going to conduct that search just after the start of the new year. Not an ideal time to start a search right before the holidays. So we will initiate a search for a finance director starting in January. And Director Ohman will continue to serve as director of finance while we conduct the search. And until a new director is appointed or until March 2026, whichever comes first.
So that search process will get underway and of course be regular updates to the HRIT committee as that process gets going. We have we've made all the preparations to get the search going, but want to be strategic about our timing. So we'll be getting going with that in January. And we'll have opportunity as we make our way through the transition process to celebrate Director Ohman's service as Director of the Finance Department. But I don't think we ought to celebrate just yet because she is continuing in that role.
So for now, I just wanted to share that information with all of you so that you're aware when we get going with a search before our next council meeting what is going on. So another piece of business we have to take care of. I want to invite Dean Gaza up here. This is, of course, Dean's last council meeting with us before his retirement on January 2. And as is tradition, we've got to roast him a little bit.
Dean's been dreading this. And I just want to say, some people, when they announce that they're going to retire, they maybe put on the brakes a little bit. Slow down. They let some things slide. Not Dean.
Dean has been full speed ahead and will be right until the very end. And that's characteristic of how he is. He has, he's been making his way through every list he has and getting in touch with people and cajoling people to have meetings to make sure that all of the pieces that need to be in place that he can possibly be a part of and support are taken care of. And that's the kind of leader that Dean has been on this team. When I started at the city, Dean was of course on that original team that I joined as mayor.
And he has been, from the very start, an incredible colleague. Just a steadfast supporter. He's been honest, forthright, not afraid to tell me when I needed to hear something, and open to new ways of thinking about our work and always supportive. And as new members of our team have come to the city, Dean's been a colleague that many have looked to for support, guidance, direction as they've joined this team. And so he's just been an integral part of the culture that we've built as a leadership team.
And I just can't thank him enough for his support because I couldn't do what I do without leaders like Dean on our team. Team. And so it's bittersweet, because Dean has worked his tail off. If anybody's earned retirement, it's Dean. Now if he stays retired, we'll see. Think he's gonna need to keep himself busy. But as is tradition for retiring directors, I've prepared a citation. These are good citations. But I'll share that with you now. And we'll give Dean a chance to say his piece.
Dean Gaza, you joined the city of Appleton as director of facilities and construction in November 2005. Yours was a new and loosely defined role created in the eleventh hour of a budgeting process. And your first office was little more than a glorified storage room in City Hall. Early in your time at the City of Appleton, you worked to reorganize and systematize our maintenance and construction of facilities. There was no issue too small nor challenge too great for you to take on.
Under your leadership, the city of Appleton not only dug out of longstanding issues, we became proactive and highly effective, all while navigating the complex dynamics of changing responsibilities and disrupting the status quo. You quickly proved yourself an invaluable leader for the organization and earned promotion to director of Parks, Recreation and Grounds in 2012, a position you have held to this day even though the name of the department has evolved over time. During your twenty years of service, you have been responsible for approximately $200,000,000 in capital improvement projects and implementation of roughly $50,000,000 in operating budgets. This work has included some of Appleton's most iconic and defining civic spaces from Houdini Plaza, Erb Park And Pool, numerous public facilities, and most recently the award winning Appleton Public Library project. Regarding awards, while you refuse personal credit, your work and that of your team has led to numerous statewide recognitions from professional associations and organizations.
Additionally, you and the teams you have led have turned every division of your department into thriving operations, widely recognized as sector leaders in their respective fields. However, what those who have had the honor to work alongside you and to know you as a person will always treasure is your humility, integrity, and your sense of humor. It is your remarkable ability to bring humanity and care to everything you do, your willingness to connect with others, and your infusion of laughter and levity that will be missed the most. You have set a remarkable example, and your contributions to the city of Appleton will continue well into the future. On the occasion of your retirement from the City of Appleton, we express our sincere gratitude for your work and we wish you well.
Congratulations, Dean.
Much. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for the kind words. It's it's hard to, you know, listen to that and take the credit because so many people are part of that. One of the things I I think about is twenty years is such a long time. Right? But, oh my god, did it go by fast. You know, we always say that, right? Twenty years, it goes by fast. Not that I didn't have my own calendar, and I was kind of counting because everybody always looks forward to to retirement. Right? But now it's it's big. Well, what am I gonna do? You know, so I'll figure it out. Okay?
I just hope that for next twenty years don't go as fast. The the one thing I I you know, Tony Sauserman, I ate lunch with him and he says, you know, I can't I can't believe I got through to this point and retired without ever getting fired or anything like that. And he said that to me and I said, yeah, I hope I can make that, you know, achieve that same accomplishment. And it is because twenty years is a long time to, like you've heard me say, it's you got to keep the, you know, the council and the older people happy, and with twenty years been working with a lot of older people. You know you know, I've you know, I've only worked through two mayors over that period of time, but obviously, kept my job with both mayors.
The community, certainly, who, you know, really are who we ultimately work for, just incredible, the friendships and the collaborations and the partnerships that we have. Man, there'll be people I'll be doing things with long after retirement. And then the department heads, you know, if I can't, you know, work with my colleagues and make sure that they could get their jobs done, you know, I'm not gonna be here that long. And the biggest thing I always go back to is my staff. The staff are the ones that make me look good. You know, they really made me look good. So a lot
of the
staff is in in the comments, and we got such a great staff. And love every one of them. Thank every one of them. I just I just know they're in great hands, and they will do great things. And I'll just have to pop in and see them and see some of you guys too. So anyway, thank you from the bottom of my heart. I just thank you so much for entrusting me with the amount of money and the responsibility over these years. And thank you guys. And, yeah, make sure you're tough on Tom, know. But thank you so much.
Right. That concludes business presented by the mayor. Have nobody signed up for public participation. So we will move along. We have no public hearings, no special resolutions, so we'll establish the order of the day. Alder Kraut.
Thank you, Mayor. I'd like to ask for a couple of refer backs and hopefully council support for these. One is, I think, going to require a vote because it was previously referred back. But first one and this is the one that I think requires a vote twenty five-ten ninety one, it's the mechanical amusement device license application for Mad Elephant.
That was October? Yes.
And according to conversation with Attorney Barron's, I believe we need to majority vote on this.
Okay. So we have a motion to refer back. We'll just handle this one. Let's handle it right now. We have a second from Alder Hartzheim to refer back. And I would invite you, Alder Crow, to share context with your colleagues about your motion.
Yeah, absolutely. Always one of supporting state your reason why you're doing a refer back. In this case, I would really like if you followed the last Safety and Licensing Committee meeting, we had a memo, and it's the packet, the memo from Attorney Berwyn. And there were some things in that memo that the committee, myself especially and I know the committee members felt the same way that we would like to have had some level of conversation with the applicant or the applicant's representative, which would be the attorney. And they were not present. So hopefully, they will be present at our next meeting so that some questions can get answered and some things can get addressed that are in alignment with the memo from Attorney Berwyn.
Okay. Further discussion on this motion? And Alder Fenton, go ahead.
Thank you, chair. And maybe I'm trying to read minds, but is Alder Krotz also requesting refer back for twenty five-fourteen fifty six?
Oh, I see. That one's automatic. So I want to just handle the one that has some procedure to it and then we'll deal with the other. Any further discussion? We have a motion and a second to refer the item back. All those in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? All right. With none opposed, that item will be referred back to committee. Alder Krot, please continue.
The second one is also a mechanical amusement device license application for Houdini's Gastro Pub '20 Five-fourteen56. This one has not been previously referred back to committee, so I believe it would be an automatic refer back if there's no objection.
Okay.
And I don't have any other requests.
All right. And hearing no objections, that'll be referred back to committee.
Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. If you'd like, it's essentially the same reason. We'd like to have a chance to either engage in a conversation with the attorney or the applicant.
Okay. Thank you. Right. Alder Schultz. Thank you, Chair. From Parks
and Rec, I would like to separate twenty five-fourteen ninety eight, approve Appleton Comprehensive Outdoor Recreation Plan, 2026 to 2030.
Okay. Any others? All right, hearing none, we'll take up the item from Parks and Recreation. This is twenty five-fourteen ninety eight, approve Appleton Comprehensive Outdoor Recreation Plan twenty twenty six to 2030, affectionately known as the Corp. We have a motion and a second to approve. Open the floor for discussion. Any discussion on the Corp?
Alder Schulz. Thank you, Mayor. I just want to separate to give our departing director a chance to comment on this exhaustive comprehensive plan. It's upwards of two twenty five pages in length. And I'm not sure that every one of my colleagues had a chance to get through all of it.
But if you've been around long enough, you'll recognize much of it has been around not just through this update but previous updates. And the vision that the park and rec and facilities director and staff has put forth continues to be laid out in a plan where we see lots of great ideas. But it takes this body some effort, particularly when it comes to financials, to move some of these ideas forward. And so I would just encourage colleagues to, at some point, take a time to go through that. But I just wanted to give our director an opportunity to maybe comment on anything that SCD parts he'd like to see.
Maybe this is the question. As you look at the five year plan, what are the things that you want to see come to fruition out of all those great ideas, most of which we won't see in five years?
Director Gassner. Director Wynn, you got it. Yeah, thank you very much. And I want to thank community development. Community development is much involved in that plan too. So we really appreciate that. Tom Flick led our department through that process. And a lot of that information or pretty much all of that information is based on what we get from input through from the community. Community would love to just see more rec you know, additional parks in areas that are not well served. They would like to see more pickleball courts.
There are a couple additional, basically, sports that have come about that they want us to look into. There's dog friendly areas that are a part of that, especially in urban areas where we don't have the ability or people that have apartments and ability to bring their pets outside. But basically, yeah, it's a lot of updating the parks, making sure, plenty of trails, and making sure there's enough green space. But a lot each park is a little bit different than what feedback we got back. And so, yeah, I would encourage everybody to take a look at that.
And, as you know, we don't have enough money to get everything done over time. And one of the most important things about the corp is if you don't have a corp, you can't apply for grants, state grants. So we needed to get that update so we can keep doing that so that will help us leverage our own resources to get this stuff done faster. But appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you, Director Gossam.
Right. Any other discussion? Seeing none, we have a motion and a second to approve. Please cast your votes. Right. That motion passes 13 to zero. Item has been approved. Need a motion on the balance of the agenda. That's interesting. Do we have a second.
Oh, weird. Would anybody like to move? We've got a motion. No, actually already have a second. We have a motion from Alder Hartzheim. We'll handle it up here. Okay. Any discussion on the balance of the agenda? Alright, hearing none, please cast your votes. Alright, there it is. All right. The motion passes 13 to zero. The balance of the agenda has been approved. I realized Alder Heffernan doesn't have those old school laminated cards we gave out back in the pandemic days. We should see about those because there's a couple of you that don't have them in there.
Yeah, those right there. All right. All right. Well, to look into that. Those are handy. Anyhow, we got some meeting left. Sorry, I got distracted. We have no consolidated action items. No items held. No ordinances. License applications and communications refer to committees of jurisdiction. Right. Resolution submitted by other persons referred to committees of jurisdiction. Have there been any actual resolution submitted?
No actual resolutions have been submitted.
Okay, good. Thank you. All right. Other business. We got a couple. All right. You're piling in. All right. Alder Schultz. Thank you, chair.
I'm glad to be the first to chime in on this one. I'm going to do what we used to do as alders, which is to stand up when we address counsel, particularly for this one. And not only stand, but also give one of those to Director Gaza for his incredible work. Since I've been on council, I sort of started to engage with this body and the mayor and staff in 2013 when I was doing sculpture things with a nonprofit and ran into issues with the city trying to move some projects forward. And over time, came to this realization that maybe I could affect some change by coming into this body.
When I first got here in 2017, I was pretty hot headed. Every time you ask for, are there any new resolutions, there was usually one every two weeks. And it had to do with sculptures and other things in the community that I was really trying to push forward. It was director Gaza and a couple other directors at that time to help me calm me down and and put me in my place and say, like, there are better ways to do these things. And I wanna commend him, in particular, with establishing the memorial restoration fund after couple of years of trying to figure out how we're going to fund the restoration of our memorial memorials in this community and other artworks.
That fund has done some great work and has seen now lots of restorations. And we're moving into a pretty significant build out of a memorial park and the new Veterans Memorial Park. So kudos to you, your staff for taking direction on that and moving the city forward and always looking out for the community and developing what I think is probably one of the best park and rec programs that any community has. If you're looking to do something and you don't have the time, energy, or money, you can look at the Park and Rec site and find a dozen different things to do on any given day, for your family and your friends. I just don't think there's any community that rivals what you and the and the Park and Rec department have done for us.
So thank you so much. I'm going to miss you. Thankfully, we went through this a few years ago when you left, so it was a little precursor. We know what it's going to feel like. We've had that happen once before, so thankfully, it's slightly less challenging to get through. And good luck on your restoration project.
Like I said, we're not launching that search process for a little bit here, so leave the door cracked open. All right. Alder Woolf.
Thank you, chair. In the spirit of thanking Dean Gaza, I will also stand up. Thank you for everything that you've done for this city. As I walk through these parks and down the trails, I often say I feel like I can leave the city within the city. And that feeling in any place is like a job well done, right, where you can feel like you're out of the elements, right, like you're out there.
I as I go around to different places, I always say how proud I am of my parks and rec department for not only their vision but their delivery, execution, and promise that they will keep up on anything and everything that needs to be done even within limited budgets. And that's something you've been really good at. I don't think I would have wanted anyone else for the last twenty years running the Parks and Rec department. So thank you for everything you've done, and I hope you enjoy your retirement.
Alder Meltzer.
Thank you. I'm going to stand up too because you are such a stand up guy. So I want to say I just have so much gratitude. I also I have so much pride for all the work you've done in these twenty years. You've really helped to shape and define the community that we get to enjoy, and that will continue to shape and define the community that we're still enjoying twenty years from now.
So thank you so much for that. On a more personal note, I joined counsel in 2014. And so you have been here the entire time I've been on Council. It's definitely very bittersweet to see you retiring. And I can't imagine what things will be like without you.
But I also, through your wonderful leadership, I'm very confident that you are leaving things in a wonderful position for our city. I want to thank you so much for the personal guidance and just how much I have learned from you over the past eleven years. I remember meeting with you when I was meeting with directors before I was elected, and just how you are able to explain how things work, why things work, really the deep inner workings of what makes cities function and what makes interdepartmental collaboration. That's always something that I thought I would not understand these things or have been able to do the work I do on council if it wasn't for your mentorship and your guidance. So I have so much gratitude.
And I will always remember so fondly when I joined the Parks and Rec Committee, you welcomed me with an email saying, welcome to the funnest committee. And that joy, that enthusiasm, and that sense of humor is something that you have always brought to every interaction I've had with you, definitely what I will miss the most. So, so much gratitude. Thank you.
Alder Fenton.
Thank you, Chair. I guess we all have to stand up. Director Gaza, I think everybody has talked about the Parks and Rec side. Not quite in the spirit of Alder Schulz, but I came on to counsel precisely because I was interested in sustainability. And what the gratitude I have to Dean for taking up some of these half formed ideas that we had on the climate task force.
And really importantly for mentoring and letting Steve Schroggy just go with this. And the example that we saw before our meeting is something that wouldn't have happened with another kind of person who didn't embrace it. And I was thinking about the time that Council President Van Zeeland and I and Director Gaza were climbing on top of the Municipal Services Building to show some state officials our solar panels, and just the pride that we had in what Appleton was doing. And Dean is really making that happen. And I think as we move forward with these projects, we'll always be grateful for his keeping that ball rolling.
And quick, quick personal note, staff people, if you haven't seen me before, wait for me when we're done.
Alder Hayden. Thank you, chair. I guess I have to
stand out, Bromus. I'm not that person who doesn't pay it forward after 15 people do it for them. Yeah, I wanted to also appreciate Director Gaza with everything that you've done. My family is really engaged with the Parks Department here beyond playing soccer and baseball and t ball and everything else under the sun. We've done Ties and Tiaras and Taylor Swift dance programs, playground days, and enjoyed the golf course.
And I think you were mentioning that everything that was in the citation there was a product of everybody that you've kind of led. And I think that speaks to the kind of leader that you are, that you're empowering the people that are working for you to take on all those challenges that I've kind of listed there. And everything that they've done is a product of everything that you've done. So I appreciate that. And I appreciate the respect that you have for the history of the city of Appleton. Appleton. Whenever I've had a question about the history, you've been there to answer questions. And I'm still in awe of everything that you know. So thank you.
As we wrap up here, I made reference to this, but think it's just worth putting a finer point on it. When Dean started, there was discussion about maybe we ought to sell the golf course, right? Because it was struggling. Every roof replacement was a crisis. We didn't even know the condition of the roofs as a city.
We'd find out when they'd leak. And the list goes on and on. And I was talking to a counterpart from another community, which will remain unnamed. They were talking about a project that they're evaluating, trying to take on a pretty significant building project. And I found myself just having to listen and not say anything because I know that they don't have the systems in place to do what they're trying to do.
They don't have the systems in place. They don't have the people like we do. And those systems, those ways of thinking about our work, are part of that legacy that Dean leaves that I made reference to in the citation. Those are things that are part of how we operate now as a city. And when we look at our CIPs, for example, we have a road map for physical projects that we're going to take on as a community in the years to come.
And that's the kind of work that we'll be enduring. Those are the systems and mechanisms that are in place now that Dean helped to build. And so it's easy to forget. And it's easy to take for granted. I think we all, from time to time, take for granted what we have as organization.
And Dean is one among many department heads, all the department heads, who are doing really defining work for our organization every day. And this is a good reminder for us, as Dean retires, of how fortunate we are to have the kind of leadership in our team that we have here at the city of Appleton. So I appreciate all your kind words. I know Dean does, though. I'm sure he's happy to be done with it because he's a humble guy.
We really I appreciate all your kind words on behalf of Dean. And Dean, thank you again. Congratulations. And wish all of you a very happy holiday season. Of course, we do not have a council meeting that first week in January. So we'll be ready to go for the January when we get back together. And in the meantime, I hope you all have a nice break and time with family. So thank you all very much. With that, we'll close other business and need a motion to adjourn. We got a motion. We got a second. I don't know what's going on with the motion. We got a motion and a second to adjourn. All those in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye.
Alright. The ayes have it. We are adjourned. Thank you.
This transcript was automatically generated from the official public meeting video and is presented unedited. It reflects remarks made on the public record by elected officials, staff, and public commenters. Transcript accuracy may vary; view the original recording for reference.