Planning Commission - public_hearing

Alright. This meeting is called to order. We we will proceed tonight, with applications and other agenda items, in the order indicated on the docket. Limited copies of tonight's agenda, are available in the back

right there. If you're an

applicant, please be sure to read, the staff report for your application. For each application, we'll we'll proceed in the following order of business. The applicant or his or her representatives will have an opportunity to either give a presentation or just answer questions from the board, then the public will have an opportunity to comment. Once public comments are closed, the board will deliberate. The board can ask questions, further questions, and have a discussion with the applicants.

No more public comment at that time. Then the board will do one of a number of things. They can vote on a motion to issue a certificate of appropriateness to conditional issue it with conditions added by the board, to deny that certificate of appropriateness. Or if the applicant requests and wants to make some modifications based on the discussion, the applicant, can ask for a deferral and the board can vote on that. The board can also take no action.

If the board takes no action, after a period of forty five days, all applications are deemed approved. So it's on the board to approve the application. They can't hold up the process. The board can also vote to continue an application until the next meeting. Next meeting is two weeks away, and, it would be just a continuation of the discussion. A couple of comments on voting. Motions passed by a simple majority vote. If there's an tie vote, that is a no. And if the board does vote to deny an application, a similar application cannot be considered for a period of one year, and that's in the municipal. The board occasionally takes up matters other than applications for a certificate of appropriateness.

That is the case tonight. We're gonna be looking at different types of fiber cement, and we'll give the public an opportunity to comment on it. There's no action that's gonna be taking place. It's really information. And finally, any decision of the board can be appealed to the city council. The applications have to be made within fourteen days of the board's decision. So with that, we're gonna get started, mister Conkey.

Amend.

Alright. Does that as does anyone on the board wish to suggest modifications from the minutes of the April 8 meeting? Do any members of the public have changes the April 8 meeting minutes? Hearing none, can I have a motion on the minutes? So move. Second. All those in favor of adopting the minutes say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Aye. Any opposed? The minutes are adopted. Onto new business, I think.

Yes. Alright. Thank you. And and I will ask the board members to please speak up so that everyone can hear you. I think sounds like already already we have a better acoustics than we did in the last room, so, hopefully, this will help. Okay. First item under new business note tonight is item number 3, BAR2026Dash00064, Oldham Historic District. Request for operations at 608 South Fairfax Street. Applicant is Ramesh Panurum and represented by Donald Foster, agent.

Right. Where is our application? Here. Where would we like our application?

Just in front.

I have it right here in the middle.

Just, like, seated or standing? Standing right here in middle. Where'd go? Okay. You can stand, or if you wanna sit, you can take a seat. I'm not gonna make you stand. And working

on we're working on getting a lectern. Sorry. We're this

Yeah. This is all temporary. You must sit down. It's casual. Okay. You're welcome to give us a presentation or just take questions, whatever you'd

like. Okay. First of all, good evening, board members. My name is Dawn Foster. I received a degree in architecture in 1973, practiced for forty years as a licensed architect.

I've been here in the DC area for the past seventeen years. You live in Old Town, as a matter of fact, but I've kinda catty corner across from the new investments. In my time here, I worked extensively with historical restoration in DC, some major volume buildings, and residential work. I saw on on your comments here that the staff recommends denial of the certificate of appropriateness. And as I look at that, something stood out to me here, and that is that it says your your writing says, according to the design guidelines, exterior doors are prominent visual elements of the building's main facades, and I agree with that, and are highly visible pedestrians when buildings are adjacent to sidewalk.

This residence is not particularly adjacent to sidewalk in terms of being at the sidewalk. It's set back 22 feet, a total of about 30 feet from the curb. It says federal style Dolores typically have six wood panels, which is correct. I agree with that. Centered and incorporated into a decorative door surround.

The proposed door design with six glass panels is not appropriate for a federal revival style, which is what this house was built as. So if we look at those historical significant features of federal style versus federal revival, there are differences. As a matter of fact, starting after the revolution when the federal style became prominent, they were indeed solid doors, six panel, typically doors. Okay. As this progressed and and around 1800 when they began what was called the federal revival period, Administrations were changed up greatly on those thousand structures.

And if you look in the history of those, there were many, many examples of six by one glass that were put on to federal revival style architecture. The administration of doors, they added a lot of lights around the side panels, transom above, and open that up quite a bit. So I would contend that a six panel door is not at all out of keeping with federal revival side. I know there are other doors around this neighborhood that are six panel glass doors, but they're storm doors. And the fact that, I guess, that we allow solid glass aluminum frame storm doors in front of other doors, you know, I would have question about that as opposed to doing something that that, with my experience, falls within a federal.

So that would be the case. This this house is 14 this is a 3 plus million dollar home. It's worth a thousand square feet. It's what we consider new construction. It's about seven years old, built with a teardown noise.

And the light penetration for this entire residence comes on the elevation you see right there and the back elevation which is actually the second. It's very limited with the amount of light, natural light that's allowed into the house. And a solid corridor like this is very difficult to maintain because this is basically directly west. It is all the easy west sun on those on wood panels. If they would they would like to change this, and you put in a six panel door with glass inserts instead of wood, beveled glass.

Thank

you. Mister Conkey, just for clarity, in our design guidelines, we do not regulate storm doors. Is that right?

That is correct.

The the storm doors can be approved without, can be can be installed without approval.

So just just to answer your question about that, it's just because I believe storm doors are viewed to be more temporary.

It's temporary. And and it's it's two things. It's it's and it's the same thing with storm windows. Yeah. It's it's the idea between storm windows and storm doors. This is a preservation board, and we're more interested in preserving historic this is a different this is a different case, obviously, with a modern building. Yeah. But on old buildings, we'd like to we would like to see the original windows be protected as best we can, and storm windows give us that option. So that's why. And that's that's not

yours for that

original voice. Yes. And and as you say, they're both they're both temporary. They can both be human removed.

Okay. So that's just the answer to your question.

Okay. Perfect.

I wanna ask my

colleagues. Does anyone have any initial questions for the applicant before we open it up for public comment?

One question. The transom above the existing door is divided into

Three lines.

Three lines.

Two. So

that's not the geometry is different from what the.

See what

Three white. Oh, let's take that one now for two.

K. And this Three.

And you're not gonna change that. You're not gonna change that.

Does any member of the public have any questions or comments on this?

We don't receive any, speaker forms.

Okay. So we'll close public comment portion of this application. We would like to ask questions or offer of deliberate comments.

Mister Adams. With most of this property. I know there's some house around the corner that may have done with glass or something that was My recollection is done about the ANR cruising in case that's something you make in reference to. I think that the solid wood door is more appropriate, especially since you have a transom above that. I think I can both to uncoordinated.

And I I have seen storm doors with six panels, but they either have lube or so in it or glass, but I think the door itself, as a wooden door, it's for including the function of the front door, actually. I I put one I thought the security to the solid door and the visual privacy of a solid door himself. Because I don't what she can even do. I I agree with the staff that it's it's

not appropriate. Any other comments?

Mister Conkey, it is my understanding that there's already a design approved for this a six foot hand floor that has two clear glass panes at the top.

That's correct. So there was a it was an administrative approval for six panels with and you can see this here in the staff that report here. The one on the upper left was previously approved, and it's still a valid approval. It was been, like, six months. So that that one so that's that's basically, what staff is recommending is is the that the applicant go with the one that was been approved administratively, is on the left.

So if I if don't mind, it's it's I I find this sounds very charming and thoughtfully designed some more in the neighborhood. I think the design guidelines about federal style of water type of theater have been definitely, the distinguishing between federal requirement or federal. I do feel like the proportion of glass to solid base on the front of the building might be disrupted by a full glass door. There's already a lot of glass that relates to the actual general building. It's very narrow on that street frontage, and it the buildings around it are clearly filed with the CC and all.

And this is another one in this already had the main concession to add to the two last panels at the top. We have acknowledged that this is a newer construction, but it continues to.

Lizania?

I think my colleague the statutes and. I don't think it's going to the board to having either or as.

But should would we have a wood store door with full glass at the homeowner could Leave the wood door open and have proper hardware. It could function as a front door. It'd be all and that would be even require a. It might be.

So, you know?

Yeah. That was my thinking too. And we need the door open. I also think the front door should be

quite solid. Amen. You'll be

able to. I understand it's facing.

Mister Spencer, I have no additional comments. Alright. Would anyone like to oh, I'll get comments. Hearing all the comments of my colleagues, they all make very good points. My personal opinion is this is maybe not the choice that I would make, but it is a federal style door. I know there are examples of federal style doors with glass and serves, and so I would be inclined to approve. With that said, does anyone have a motion?

A motion to approve the first staff recommendation. To deny first staff recommendation.

Do we have a second? Second. And then, mister Punky, is this a roll call?

This is not. It's not there's no demolition, so no.

Okay. We have a motion on the table to deny the application. So all those in favor of the motion to deny, say aye. Aye. Aye. All those opposed? K.

K. So that was assigned to Pardon. Thank you.

So your existing approval is still intact, and you have fourteen days to apply to the. You also use the Stormdoor as miss Elnino and mister.

Thank you very much. Thank

you, Chris. Yeah.

Next item oh, not there yet. Love more. Next item in the docket is item number four. This is BAR2026Dash0074. Old Historic District request for complete demolition encapsulation at 707 Oronoco Street. Parcel address 500 North Washington Street. The applicant is Kulinsky Group Architects PC represented by Steven Kulinsky, h.

And, mister Kalinsky, you're in the hot seat. Okay. Where do you like to state your name? Or you can stand. You are allowed. No. I'll sit. No. No.

It's for the record.

Yeah. Name and and address for the record and then the floor. Record. Steven Kalinsky, 104 North West Street, and it's relatively straightforward. It's a demolition of a well, this once a garage is now used as office space. So glad to answer any questions. So we have any questions?

I do. It's maybe most people have time. So I understand that we the house was built in 1926, but this garage was later in 1970.

Yeah. So we the the garage the garage first appears on the same more maps in 1958, so it was sometime around there. We don't we we're not able to find a a permit for it or anything, but but we know from the Sanborns, it was not on there prior to 1958, so, you know, somewhere around it.

Follow-up. My my understanding is there's no longer a curb cut here.

That's correct. In the garage? Right. In 2001, I believe, there was a a BAR application to modify the the garage into no longer being a functioning garage. It was became an office space. Yeah. At that time, the curb cut was abandoned or taken away, and some modifications were made to the building so that it can be used. So it was continuing to look like a garage, but that it would function as an office.

Just for clarity, although it's not formally part of your application, the reason for this because discounts against your FAR for adding additions on the property. It it isn't isn't if it's us. It's where footage you can't use, and the building is being converted to residential use. That that's the intention. Do have an intention to add more? Potentially, yeah, don't wanna

put this on. Know? Okay.

Before I spend too much time It's

just difficult to know sort of

what the idea is for the board. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Planning on converting it to residential, and this this would help us to do that. Okay. Any other questions from the board? Does any member of the public have any comments to make on the South Of Lake Shore? Do we have any speaker form?

We have not received any speaker form. No.

Okay. We'll close public comment and I'll Can I just play any time? Well, you'll have to fill out a speaker form. I have a moment. I did not. Okay. Great. Thanks. Give a second. Yeah. It's just perfect. That's terrific. Okay. You are allowed. You'll have three minutes to be able to comment, and please start with your name and an address for the record, and the floor is yours. Okay. My name is Colin Leach. I'm retired. I just bought 270 South Alfred Street.

72.

Actually, I believe this gentleman might have something to do with architecture. It was a converted office to a house, and it is very livable as is, and that's great. And I just wanted to say that the work I've seen from this group group having all the accounts, absolutely a one. That's it. Lauren?

I think the one three hundred

two. Yeah. I don't No. Actually seen him before. No. That's Don't and I just need to thank you so much. That's usually the opposite is what I hear. You know, sort of comment. So thank you. Thank you for your comments. Okay. Any other public speakers? Alright. We'll close the public comment portion for item number four, and the floor is open to any of my colleagues who'd like to weigh in or offer a motion or whatever it is you'd like. I want to make a motion to approve first step recommendation. Is there a second?

And I just wanted to mention that I have no problem with the demolition. It is very visible, though, from Washington Street. So I need to plan future development. Keep in mind that's especially going north on Washington.

We have those high Washington Street standards. So yeah. And we'll we'll be we'll be back once I figure out.

Okay. And we have a second. Sorry.

So so I missed the second. Yes. Yes. Okay.

And give one second. Okay. Miss Robinson?

Mister Spencer? Aye.

Miss Donino?

Aye.

Mister Adams? Aye.

Miss Zandian?

Aye.

And Mr. Scott?

Aye. Thank you. You're No. You're getting out of this. Thank you very much. Alright. What's the next one, Mr. Kwan?

Okay. We have one more well, couple more. Number five is VR2026Dash00076, Old Historic District, request for operations at 115 Queen Street. The applicant is Melissa Sordell, represented by Susan Fry, agent.

Yep. Susan Fry. Thank you. Thank you

for the. Let me know what has been recommended by

the staff, which is the I'm sorry. Let me start again. We're looking to replace her. No. I have.

15. And

we are working to replace, obviously, the roofs. And we have a couple of options, which under the staff is recommending the composite. I'm a little concerned about the bulkiness of the composite versus even.

Right?

Whoops. That house was built in 1971. Am right? And it's obviously falling apart. The one we have the house. No. Not me. Not that. Just the rest. So we did a little bit of research, but we had to speak to speak to us.

Sure. We actually hired the other year make sure that we didn't have any hazmat issues. So we're now back here trying to figure out which one. I know the availability of the composite, which the board, and I really like your staff is recommended. In my opinion, and I do this for a living, this is a bit bulky for a three twelve or 1,200 square feet with as you can see, the pitch is so low.

This to me looks more like the actual slate. And I'm not leaving Dana White here. I'm just trying to be a visual. This availability is at least eight weeks together. This is not.

Trying to have it done as efficiently, And quite frankly, not a whole lot of disruption to the neighbors. We know we have to reach out to the. And we also know that if we move homes within a lot or two and replace their roofs with the architectural things. So our request, obviously, is to replace them with this and have them be sooner rather than, like this will be eight weeks to get the product to. And it will take at least two weeks of installation.

Architectural shingles, I know we're maybe not necessarily within the guidelines of. But to me, this is a much lower. And that's I think that's. And we have that in three roofing companies. And I do know it is the desperate need to. And we we can't repair. Okay. Thank you. Does anyone have

any questions for you? Please start on the presentation.

Yes. I think we have

this particular country, which is, like, you need to call it.

You know, a lot of places,

so we

can't really start.

And replacing it with real. I I don't see why we would not do it with one of the other one of these two other options that have been around forever.

Alright. You were saying maybe doesn't. And this company is back on thinking what It does not. Okay.

It's truly.

But

there is no way that.

Had you considered just replacing the new slate room?

No.

Okay. Now, mister Ponky, help me with the guidelines here. I believe on historic buildings, we would require real genuine slate, but we have approved some simulation slate on the we'll go ahead and see

that. Right?

No. It kind of right. So our our administrative approval guidelines say that real slate must be replaced with real slate. Yes. That's why that's why this is before the board tonight. So but that being said, which exactly what you just said is that on modern buildings, the the board has often made an exception to that real slate requirement and said a sectionally is acceptable. Okay.

Shannon? I didn't hear your last statement. I

was just saying that in that our design our administrative administrative requirements say that RealSlate must be replaced with RealSlate. However, the board in the past has often made an made an exception for later buildings.

For modern buildings? Yes. And this is a modern building?

Yes. Anything after 1932 would be considered a later building.

Do we have any public speakers on this, Juan?

I don't know.

Okay. We'll close the public input portion just to continue to discuss it. Does anyone else have any comments or questions for our applicant?

I'm familiar with the and also that it's such a shallow slope, this room, and it's in the mid middle of the block, and it's unspoken horribly visible. So that would be fun. I think glad that we're able to approve a synthetic slate in this instance. It's a handsome house, but it's it's not they're seventies or old seventies? Yeah. '71. '71. Yeah. Right. So it's it's appropriate to that time period, I think, to have to build out that time and follow it.

And the others so there are others that have deposits, like, in the same valve. So I was cleared as a exact timing, whichever one you prefer, because I think there's not much.

This is is here, sir. Climb.

Are two. Not family over. Actually, family. This is more visible, I

think, bulkier one might be such that it's three stories of the air,

and then it's such a snout

that you in the photo, I think it's pretty accurate. You don't you can always.

Thank you.

So were are there other synthetic options, or it's only those three?

These are the two that were that were presented by the applicant. I mean, there are there are lots of synthetic slate options on the market.

Mhmm.

These are the super these are the two being presented by the So

had you looked at other options? You've got there's the bulb here one. There's I'm sure there are more than two. Right?

There are. In particular, it is, you know, similar looking.

We're gonna

do this like David. Right.

And it's unfortunately. Right. It's not. But I believe there are other options that are similar slate individual pieces just beyond the.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any other synthetic product, and I have we reached out to. Okay. And that's the one that I've met the price. And I guess it's because it was that that $6.12, $3.12. I mean, it's such a low profile. I feel like in my opinion, and I just found a. I have not had any. Are you That looks like slightly

Are you keeping the snow guards? So you can put the snow guards on asphalt.

Oh, that

that's pretty much. But

it's usually asphalt and it holds the snow.

I'm sorry. Say that one more time.

The asphalt roof holds snow, so we usually don't have snow guards on an asphalt. Usually, it's on a slate or metal.

It's not the dam it's not

the dryer, but rather than No. Get it right there. Broke out. It

was the metal The little

a small metal in the retail. And it comes to no match to another. It's a signature of a slate roof or a metal roof.

I'd like to I know. No. I don't I don't. Think I

I can speak because I have, like, a son. Yeah. You do. No. I don't think I can.

Are you kidding?

It's just the same thing.

I would love to be able to show

you a couple of examples.

One of them is water,

and I don't know that they have that. So yeah. I'm sorry. Here I'll just offer some comments now. We're familiar with the neighborhood. One of the unique things about this neighborhood is that when it was developed in seventies, the the builder chose different roof styles for different homes. And in fact, some homes were built with asphalt shingle roofs, Some were built with metal, and then some were built with genuine slate. It was part of the plan in the original neighborhood to to vary the roof styles. And so because of that, our guidelines are pretty clear that slate has to be replaced with slate. And it's it's that bulkiness that you don't like that adds character to the roof.

I'm perfectly comfortable on a modern building with a simulation slate. It's a lot less expensive, and I would be inclined to approve a simulation slate and even give you the flexibility to find to work with staff to try to find an alternative to the Braava if there's another simulation that you could find that you like better. But I would be disinclined to approve the switch of roof type simply because I find it to be under our guidelines at defining architectural feature of the building. And it's I'm sure you understand that. With your team,

you see, then yours. Yes. It's very weird. I I wish that There's a certain rhythm to the window. Yeah. Yeah.

Are there any other comments?

I

agree with that. And then we can keep your snow guards, and

they'll be

they're building, I think, would stand out for your neighbors.

And I would love that. I worry about the availability. And we keep TV at fine. It's gonna be nice. And it's going to take eight weeks to get this product, and it'll take two weeks to. We are sympathetic. We're all homeowners in this city.

We are group based on timing. The developers would be stable and support every single time we meet with them. So, again, we totally understand. Are there any other deliberative comments, miss Anand?

I I was gonna say I agree with you, Anand.

Miss Anand, Cindy? I don't see it. I do are we ready for a motion? Yes. Would anyone like to make

a motion? Sure. It's a motion to approve.

I think it's back up.

First, staff recommendations or not, well, modify staff recommendations to take out

the Bravo whole world and to explore the idea of other options. So Our simulates thing.

So what was it? So a bravo or something similar? Seven. Seven. Yes.

Do we have a second to that motion? Second. And is this a roll call or a voice vote?

Sorry. One second. This is a voice vote. I'm sorry. Who was the second?

It's Roberts.

Thank you very much.

This is a voice vote.

So we have a motion before the board to approve with staff recommendations except to authorize the application to work with Citi on another synthetic slate, a similar projects product to the problem, but not exactly the problem. Okay. All those in favor of that motion say aye. Aye. Any opposed? I K. Congratulations.

Thank you.

Yes, ma'am. How can we start working?

That's a permitting yeah. Thank you. Our approval. I think you can go immediately to the city and get your permit. We're the last. And I can't wait to go see

the new roof. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm doing that. I'm gonna be sharing that with you. My my new roof

is just replaced. I used to. I know they sent. So

So I I recommend I reach out to staff. Reach out to our staff Yeah. As soon as you're ready. We can if you have some options that you wanna look at and move to Brava, then we can work through that, and then you can apply for your billing from the. Right?

She's with Brendan. They can be on

the side.

Yeah. Reach out find out. Yeah.

Okay. Reach out to find

Yeah.

Alright. Thank you, guys.

It was the fact that like, small. But it's all. Oh, so

it's something that's like everything. Want

just pizza and

green and small.

Okay. Okay. So let's take a five minute break.

One sec. Let's let's do let's do the, let's talk about the, design guidelines first, and then we'll take a five minute break.

Okay. Do you wanna tell us,

what's going on with the guide? Yes. Yes. And that's under under other business tonight. We have, wanna talk about the memo that you all have here tonight regarding design guidelines. So as we as we look forward to completing the design guidelines update now, we're gonna we're looking to change how we do it a little bit, and we would like to get this board to vote on on the proposal in front of you and to reaffirm the the members of the of the of the design government committee. So broadly, what we have, we've got we've got approximately 20 chapters left in the design guidelines, and, honestly, we've done most of the really difficult ones. Most of the complicated and difficult ones we've done. So what we're what we would like to do is basically move forward, breaking the 20 into groups

of three. Right? So we'll so we'll

do three chunks rather than how we've been doing it, which is meet with the design design guideline committee and then bring it to you at the next at the next hearing. We wanna break it up into chunks and do it in thirds. So the goal is to be done within a year. And so this the memo talks about this the committee sunsetting a year from today if or or sooner if we finish the work. So that would that would put an end put a sunset on the committee.

So what what we what we see happening is we see basically three month three to four month time periods, and we would do we would meet with the committee, come up with that chunk of of of chapters, and then we would hold then then we'd like to go before we do the BAR take the BAR, we want to hold a a open a community meeting. So we would have a community meeting for anybody who was interested. We would do a presentation on the revised chapters, open open to community and take comments at that point. And then we would take then we'd come to the board with the comments we received from the community as well as draft, and then we would get the board to enact that chunk of three. So that's kinda and then we would do that in three three parts and end up with completed design guidelines chapters.

So for the members of the design guidelines committee Yes. It will pretty much proceed as normal Correct. Except we will have an interim community meeting led by you Correct. That the members of the design guidelines committee can attend, but don't necessarily have to attend because it's more of staff community Right. Interface. We'd always love to have, you know, the the

the community members there to answer questions and things like

We have about 20 left. Approximately 20 left. We can do seven each time. That's three more design guidelines community leaders. Maybe four if we get bogged out.

Yeah. Yeah. So, basically, the the real difference here is that rather than taking rather than bringing to the board on a piecemeal one on a time basis Yeah. We wanna do bigger chunks and then then also incorporate this community meeting. So we wanna we wanna have a chance to go to the community that's to with all these things and get some feedback that's outside of justice boards. We I mean, we will also, of course, be open this is open public hearing, of course, and we can take testimony.

The first two make a lot of sense In terms of when the full board reviews it, I don't think it matters that much if we batch them or spread them out. Yeah. Only the community engagement that we're concerned.

Agreed. And and I think we we can look at that as we go.

It's gonna be a lot to break those up.

And what we'll do is we'll we'll target look at that as we go. Think and and the idea would be we would target a night, like tonight, where we've got a fairly fairly short docket. Docket. And we would say, okay. We're gonna take our batch of our first batch. You know, maybe it doesn't exactly correspond, but but we'd like to take it in, look at look at a docket, like, tonight and say, we'll do it then, you know, something like that. So we can work on it as we go. But the notion is that we do it in chunks. We incorporate this additional community outreach. Yeah.

And that's kinda how we do it. And then, like I said, I would like to get a vote from the from the board to affirm this as our direction and then also reaffirm the membership of the board. I'm sorry. The committee. And that's James Spencer, Christine Roberts, Theresa Del Nino, Margaret Miller, Andrew Scott, and then the staff liaison, which are not a part of the board. We're not I mean, not not part of the committee rather. Staff is just just helping along with making edits and and facilitating. That's myself and Brendan Harris.

Great. Do you have

any questions about design guidelines? Okay. Let's take a do want a five minute break?

Let's take I'll can you get a vote on this on this first, please?

Oh, we have to vote on this?

Yeah. I'd like get a vote to affirm Okay. To affirm vote

to agree this bill.

Do you have

a second? Second. All those in favor of staff recommendations on design guidelines committee meeting changes, Say aye. Aye. And your host. Congratulations.

Thank you very much. You're welcome. We look forward to moving out the project.

Five minute break.

Five

minute. And then we'll do our 5%. Yes. Give me

give me five minutes to to move around the table here and

me.

We can make time for public comment if the chair of

the design guidelines? No. Oh, comments. In general? We don't usually take general public comments. They usually have to be attached.

They might be

I tell you what. We're gonna do this workshop on fiber I'll be happy to give you an opportunity to speak. We can talk about fiber cement,

or you

can talk about whatever you want.

Yeah.

We'll give

you three minutes.

Yeah. When? When we get back.

Okay. We'll get back. That'll be fine.

Yeah. Okay. Too.

Yeah. And I does he have to fill out a second speaker form? No.

No. That's fine. That's fine. We have your name. We it's just so we can get your name and everything. So Yeah. It's fine.

We will if you're truly not interested in talking about Vagra Cement, then we'll just open it up to you first. Alright. Then we don't hold you, but you're welcome to stay. I can tell you all about Vagra Cement. We yeah. I'm good. My background, I came from Houston. Are you James Martin?

I wish I were.

I do. Are.

But in all seriousness, I came from Houston. We moved here right at the end of December. We lived in the Houston Historic District. Yeah. Went through a house building there. And I come from England. I went to a college which was founded in 1351

Mhmm.

Which is

a little bit older than them.

It is Older than Houston, for sure.

And I certainly have some comments on what's going on about one in particular.

Bring us the map. It would

be very much of the heart of the design of our design. Something very good. It's not.

Works around. It's sinful. We actually went to a big site. And we're just trying

to be. So how are you doing? She's doing good. She's doing

doing very well.

She's really done with one.

Guys ready

to go? Alright.

We're back.

We got some time for the lunchtime.

Alright. Well, I just forgot. Before hours.

I think we have a public speaker. Yeah.

A public speaker, so we're gonna let you speak. And You have three minutes. You have three minutes, and the

floor is yours. Okay. My is Colin Lynch. I've just moved here from Houston in Texas. We bought a house on South Albert Street, which was virtually not restored house, and it's very nice inside and obviously has the architectural features for whatever the historic district is.

In Houston, we bought a in 2019, we bought a 1920 house. Added to it, it was in the Houston Historical District. They very much took the attitude that one wanted to maintain the character of the house, but ensure that it was livable for the next thirty years. So that meant that well, yep, maybe a little less strict than what we see here, but it was very important that the house was livable for the next thirty years. Now I've come from England originally, but we moved to Houston in 1983, I've so been here a long time in The States.

I'm a citizen, but I can't be president, which is probably just as far as for me and for you guys. I went to a college that was founded in 1351 in England. They have the old library, and they are underfunded. What that means is the library looks very historical, but maybe things are they haven't been more up to date. I don't know which is better to bring things up to date or leave it historically.

Moving to here, the big thing I see about Alexander, which wasn't around in 1800 or 1850 or even 1900, is planes every two minutes. And I think that that really detracts from the old town. Finding traffic does as well. One of the big things that you could do is to allow residents to have double pane fire windows, and that would make the livability really much better. And at the same time, as long as the windows look like original windows, maybe wood frame.

In Houston, we have wood frame windows that we put into the house we redid. I think it would really help. And I would suggest in your architectural approach that you think about allowing that because it would make living in Old Town Alexandria much better.

Thank you. Thank you. Just so you know, we do allow double pane windows in a style that has no lintons, no grills. But if it's a one over one window, you can have a double pane window. Or two over two. Even in a historic building.

One over one or two over two?

Or two over two.

Yeah. Beyond that.

We will approve that even in a historic building. And then we're looking at some new options, right, in City Hall.

Yes. City Hall.

Yes. We have triple pane. It's a it's a double pane that's

but it it's a double

pane window that that looks like a single pane window. So because

there's really not much air in there.

Right. Basically, it's it's separated by a vacuum rather than an an inert gas. Yes. And so it's it it has a very high level of thermal performance while maintaining a look of a single pane.

That's might allow with multiple pane.

Right. I think that's that's gonna come on I think that'll come into residential construction soon. I mean, it's

So you're gonna see that in city hall when they replace all these windows. They're gonna have a new style that is double pane. But we do allow them something even just as long as

it's fine. I I will from that perspective, I will follow-up. And at some point in the future, we may replace the same pane windows in the house we have, but that would be fine.

Yeah. And as long as the configuration is one over one or two over two, you can talk to mister Conkey.

And one one other caveat is that

If they're architecturally distinctive. What

if well, if they're historic windows. If they're original historic windows, then we don't want them replaced. But that's the only that's the only caveat. Yeah. 1,800. We don't we don't we don't wanna lose our original material.

Yeah. But at some point, we didn't

have that. I wouldn't guess. I wouldn't stop. Hopefully, that clarifies, though. We are updating our guidelines. Hopefully, to make them more clear to members, everybody from the public so that that message is clear to you, so not to come to the board and tell us. So we

do appreciate it. Very well. I I honestly think that from my experience, the windows and actually the fiber cement siding is about the biggest improvements you can make such that your houses will be good the next thirty years. Thank you. Excuse me. Alright, man.

Alright. So let's go. Just do have some show and tell, so I'm going to walk around here to the middle, and I'm going try not to have my back to anybody, but I probably will because putting around some stuff. That being said, so I wanted to talk about fiber cement tonight. The board sees fiber cement all the time, and not all fiber not all fiber cement is the same. So that's kind of the theme of the of the of the topic tonight. You know, I think we I'm gonna talk about some that's on residential, you know, single family residential construction, and then someone that's used on larger parts. You know, I think we talk we we have this thing where we say, okay. Fire cement and everything. Everyone has an has an idea of what that means, and I want to only show you some options tonight to talk about that.

Fire cement is a type is a type of material. It is and there's lots of range within it. So agenda meeting. Let's let's talk about this. So I wanna start off by first off, and then and we do this all the time. When we talk about any material, first thing first pertains to our material. Like, that's and I think that's fundamental to everything we do in this board and everything we do in our in our design guidelines is retain store material in place as best as possible. Yeah. So I just wanted to sort of start off by saying that as a as a priority. This is a report from our design guidelines, but it basically says what

I just said.

So what we wanted the way we do this, though, when whenever someone's once it says they wanna replace Woodside, we go out we say, well, first, we need to find out if it's stored. And so we go out there and we'll look at it. And if it's if what's on there is clearly modern, we can tell that through nails and other methods. We say, okay. Can you cut a two foot square hole in what's there and let's find out what's underneath? Because quite often, we have found the original historic siding underneath a modern pine siding. Yeah. And that's been great. We've seen that a lot of times. And what we do is then we talk then we work with the owner and we say, we want you to keep the historic.

It's there. The historic site is generally older older growth. It's really strong wood, doesn't rot. It's fantastic. You can you can keep it. You can what we talk what we work with them to do is basically remove it, insulate the walls, do, like, a modern wall, and then put it back. And then often what we'll do is we'll say, okay. You don't have enough to do the full house. So this is this rot that that that that down low, there's rotten windows, things like that. But maybe you have enough to do the front. So we'll say, okay. Take it all down. We'll call through it. We'll get enough to do the front, and then you put the original material on the front, and then you go with something modern on the sides. So that's that's just kinda how we

do it. I know you you guys, I think, know this. You mentioned this enough times to

know that, but I wanna reiterate that as as kinda, like, our starting point is is, you know, what can we do to retain friction?

K. Great. Okay. So the here's

the guidelines we have currently in this. So this I wanna again, I want to wanna come back to this. In the oldest door district, any replacement siding, just what we'll call it right away, it must be wood on an early building. Early building is 03/1932. On later building, composite siding such as fiber cement can be used if it's smooth finish and and paste. Parker Gray is a little bit different. Parker Gray, can use composite siding on the on the sides and rear of an early building. Again, the front must be wood. And then later, it's composite.

So these are these are the guidelines we'll be

working under for quite some time.

Can you remind me, did you approve an early global new fiber cement for someone who did not access? Yes.

Right. And these are the administrative guide.

Yeah.

Which is what we can

do administratively. Yeah. So whenever we bring something to you, that's a great point.

Yeah.

We had a we had a project where there was

a wall. There was an alley, but the neighbor It was like

two feet from the neighbor's property, and it was like kind of in the back. And and the board said and the board said, well, we're but they the board was more concerned about damage to the building from water filtration. If you if you couldn't maintain if you can't maintain it, it's gonna damage the building. It's gonna you're gonna lose sort of fabric that way, so you made an exception. And that's that's what we do. I mean, whenever we bring something to the board, the whole idea is we can't do it most straight of, but here's a reason that to make an exception. Here's the guy who wants it. Stop the problem. Okay. So what is fiber cement siding?

Fiber cement siding is a it's a it's a it's a mending material. It's made with water, wood pulp, fly ash, and cordless cement. It's basically pressed together into boards or panels that have all different types of of attack methods, and they come in different different shapes shapes and sizes and things. But all fire cement is basically that. And it's important to know fly ash. We don't people don't know fly ash. Fly ash is a byproduct of of burning fulp. So it's a it's a it's a green product because it does actually take a byproduct. It has some get to something with it, and we can actually turn it into a a building material.

It is essentially concrete? Basically.

Yes. And yes. So it's like a

class c. Right.

Rating. So that's also a big thing.

Does fly ash provide a fire rating?

I think that there's beyond fly ash, the Portland cement.

Yeah. It's it's cementitious. Yeah. So, I mean, it's it's an from a from technical standpoint, it's a it's a it's a very good material in a lot of ways because it's it's fire it's fire resistant. It's inner you won't grow old. You can set the blowtorch up to it all day and never burn. I can burn. They hold paint very well. It's easy to work with. So there's lot of good lot of reasons to use fiber cement, fiber cement siding, more more panels. It just it has some issues in terms of, you know, compatibility with historic materials and in terms of how you install. Mean, the installation is really important.

Yes. We've all seen bad fiber cement.

We all have seen bad fiber cement. So let's move on a little bit. So what I'm to do is I'm to go through, here are some of the common products we see. These are by no means all 5% net. This is a cross section. In broad terms so in broad terms, these are going escalate in cost as we go through them. And so I'm just gonna start I'm gonna I'm gonna start handing some stuff out here as we go. So this is Hardie Plank. So this is what we see on residential single family residential quite often. You can see it's installed to the base, but it's a lapsed siding.

And so it's it it it's concealed by the one above it. We typically like to see the stuff installed using sleepers to create a a a a

a a a a a

It creates an air an area of air behind it. It allows the wall to breathe. So it creates a kind of like a hops,

a brain screen kind of system.

Oh,

that's how we recommend down behind the I know that. Yep.

That's it. That's how we that's how we recommend it. It's allowing well, this stuff doesn't roll mold. Other parts of the wall could. Is it? I think it's allowing manufacturer recommends?

Yes. Yes.

And there's different ways of doing it. There are you can actually get our premanufactured glass that that from them. I wanna get it my house. Honestly, we went and got some pressure treated plywood and strips on the wall and screwed through it. It was it worked great. So this is what you see. This comes in five sixteenths inch thickness, and that's what you see here in in these samples, which they're not passing out. One of the things that our design guidelines do talk about here is if we're going to use this, we want to have it be smooth and painted, and we don't so we don't like the we don't like the the fake wood texture. It's smooth. It does come sometimes pretty painted, so it'll from the factory with the paint paint color.

Then you just have to touch up the edges and things. It'll last longer. The color will last longer if it's if it comes from the factory, but, you know

it is a little bit.

Two. So and it comes in a variety of of widths, five and quarter, six and quarter, seven, eight and quarter. It's a pretty this is a pretty simple siding. It doesn't have doesn't have decorative profiles. It's just a lab siding, but this is really what we see commonly in residential single family residential.

We also see this in huge sheets, though. Right?

We're gonna get to that. Okay. We're gonna get to that. Yep. Alright. So this is a partisan subs. Now I'm I'm presenting this knowing that this this product is very hard to get. It is it's either it's on and off the market. I wanted to present it because it's something you might see,

and I want you to be aware of it. It is an upgrade. It's called it's an

hard hardy size. It's upgrade to their to their which is faster than half. It's a five eight inch thick, so it's a nice heavy thickness. It comes in a variety of profiles, the v groove, shiplap, things like that. This is on and off the market. Every by the time I talk about it, it's it's turned around again. It's very difficult to get. It degrades they would be if they would be more consistent with it, but they're just not. And every time I go to a a conference or something or talk to them, I'm like, where's your artisan? I was taking it away.

Then then I'll go to the next conference and there'll be a whole thing on it. So it's it's is by no means something that we can, like, count on. But I want you to know I just want you to be aware of it in case you see you see you see a presentation about submission that has arson party arson siding on it. I want you to understand what that is. It's a it's an upgrade to what we passed away. It's it's a it's a it's available in in with different widths and different profiles. The nice thing about this one, the other one is just lab. This has got these v room, ship lab, square channels. It's all kind of different profiles.

Sir? It's not German.

It does not have German.

It's in the menu.

It does

not have German.

Oh, okay. Don't sell

the German line. You see a lot in

all It's that they don't sell it. Whatever reason they want, it's it cost more to build to to produce, and they don't seem to be they sometimes they say they don't sell enough of it to make it worthwhile.

Oh, okay.

Because everyone just goes with the lapsiding. Yeah. And the lapsiding is I mean, like I said, the lapsiding is for your that's your one of the bill. I mean, literally available at Home Depot. So just that's that's what you see a lot. That's your when when you when a lot of people think far I think 5% that, this is what they think of. Because it is like it's, you know, it's the Xerox of confidence. Right? It's the it's the this is the brand name. Alright. Next one. Okay. Party party signing architectural account. Very similar in in makeup to the to the left siding, but it is slightly different. What is so we're just doing a.

We do. So the party siding panels are this is what you guys see on multiverse multiuse residential. Whenever a lot of times when they put when they say they're gonna put panels on, a lot of times, it's it's It is sometimes used in single family where if you have like a more modern wing on something, want panels, they use this. This does not have a concealed fastener option. It's always through the front of the board. They use things that cover the the the the screws or nails with things to match the board,

but you will always see

a little dimple. You'll always accept it there. An important thing is kinda hard to see here. And I I tried to put this in the in the in the little diagrams in the bottom. There's two options for the for the edge of these things. So it's a flange. Essentially, it's essentially it goes into a metal flange, and you can either have the return flange like this on the so, like, here's your panel, and it overlaps the front of the of the of the panel, and it creates basically like a window a picture frame. Right? So you say you see the panel, you see a a matching metal. It's usually matching color, but you do see that metal thing.

It it kinda creates a picture frame. We tend not to like that. It it ends up it gives a weird sort of sort of grid shaped pattern to it. Problem with that is it's it's very difficult to align. So if you're gonna I mean, if you could if you could align perfectly, we have these things lined up beautifully and have have an amazing grid that could be could be really nice. And that's what lined the field very difficult. It's basically just attaching to the wall.

I don't know what anybody else think. To me, this is probably the worst use of light of cement because it goes on quickly. It's very inexpensive to install. So you see it a lot on on ugly buildings that aren't well designed. And this you can see

it all over the place.

I don't know that architectural panels are something that are will be installed in town, but there might be some uses. I think I don't know. I don't even like this one. They're not trying

to use the whole sheet.

Yeah. Like, they break the panel down. I've seen it where it's a smaller sheet. Yeah. And you can cut seem to be done nicely, but they also have to, like, just come and say, you have to pay attention to the details on how

it works.

Yeah. And how it's.

And When then the corners are really important because you could do you could do an open corner where you can try to overlap it. So, like, the two pieces can want that or you can overlap one.

What's the better way to do it?

It depends on what you're looking for. And if that opens corner, you know, it gives it takes away the crisp edge. Yeah. So it had if you were trying to create, like, this screening type of feel, then that's appropriate where you have an open corner. It just depends. But the problem is it's only five sixteenths and five sixteenth inch base image. So when you start thinking about, like, this thing looking at exposing the edge of it at five sixteenth, that's pretty thin. Yeah. And these so when I was talking about with the denouncement method, when you have that metal trim, you can either have it return and create that that that frame or you can lose that flange and it just sees the edge of the material. In terms of lining things up, it's better without frame because you're lining up boards rather than the metal, which is a little bit easier.

You're also now you're seeing the edge of the of the material, which is has to be field painted normally because it's gonna be you're gonna get a four way sheet and then cut it.

But you're supplying a lot of design for product that not a craftsmanship. Well, a lot of people aren't designing. They're just saying throw this up. This stuff attention.

It requires in order to done right and it can be done right. I mean, I'm I'm none of these materials are good or bad in here. In order for these to be done right, it needs to be carefully designed and carefully installed.

And the reason we would use this is because they're cheap and they don't wanna spend the money. Like, on As I said, as I said, as I go through

the the my presentation here, things things get are gonna get more expensive as we go through.

I'm just highlighting about that. We're gonna have to figure it out for the design guidelines, and I don't know. He doesn't

I don't speak with all of them. Yeah. Yeah. I think the exposed fasteners are a showstopper.

I think so too. Because even with the lab, you can hide the fasteners. But with this I think it depends on the use the front of a house. Now it's somebody's back addition. I might not

be so opposed to depending on how it's telling the house.

Or if it's if it's six floors up.

Yeah. And and like I said, if it's not the full sheet, I can't stand when someone just takes the

floor by eight. Right. I'm done.

I can go to go to Columbia Heights. Every every new addition, every new bill that has to be put there nicely, and I think you just have you have if someone wants to do it, we have to hold their feet to the fire about it. Okay. We need to submit the full design for this and not just 5%. Right.

Yeah. Right. And I think that yeah. Exactly. And and and like I said, this is often most often used in multiunit residential. So this isn't this is gonna be on on a typical product that we would see. You're gonna have a podium building, meaning you're gonna have concrete for the first two new doors perhaps, and then from there up will be stick built. When you get to the upper levels, they can't really use base three anymore, so now they have to look for an alternative material. The board has often said we want metal on street facing and perhaps use use garbage on other other facing elevations, interior facing elevations, courtyard facing, stuff like that. So that's what

the sport has done in the past.

But, anyway, this is in North Fairfax.

They reach use in Shenhard. Right.

Right.

Right. Right.

Since that point, I would say we should try to for larger projects, we should try to force them. Often, you're doing something. I think it's something nicer than Yes. Formation. I'm just thinking about how we write a regulation on the guidelines. Mean, you do it based on thickness or fastening style? Because we can't do it based on price. No. You can't can't do it based on

and I don't think you can design a stock between a small project.

That's the average. And I will probably you can do it, like, in terms of scope, architecturally speaking, like, a small project that might more appropriate. I mean,

you could delegate between single family residential and Single family. And large buildings. Yeah. Well, we have different we have different sign I mean, sign guidelines for different projects.

So the single family residential, you know, could be, you know I'm thinking maybe, like, Duane Neal's office. I mean, Alfred Street was really quite large as his office. Yeah. Somebody buys it. Now it's a single family resident.

That'd gonna be single.

I think that we shouldn't be distinguishing the use of a building. I guess

sometimes It's more than typology.

It's more than typology. Mean and, know, and, again, this is not I mean, we're not writing the guidelines tonight. Mean No.

We're gonna have

to But I want you I'm I wanna educate you on the different types, and let's think about how we do this. I mean, I I understand your point. It shouldn't be based on use, but there should be some sort of technology. Maybe I don't know how we do that.

What we've talked about is Theresa and I both had issues with Windows, and now we've let developers do whatever they want. Even if it looks like a single family home, it's now the entrance to apartment building. We have to put Yeah. Some it too. Yeah. Please please reset our windows.

Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. We're thinking more architectural typology, maybe we find a way to delay architectural typology. Yeah.

Right there. Because you're saying we should be looking in this way for the guidelines sent.

I will. Somewhat, yes. This is this is with an eye towards the guidelines. This is also just in educating you guys when you're gonna see projects come forward. Yeah. As you see projects coming forward, I want you to know what you're looking at. Understand when they say when they say 5% that you guys are have have what you need to ask the questions. What is this real So just a question.

It's I'm gonna think, but the our guidelines allow 5%

of that siding.

Right? On side, let's say, in in the. So can they just take a four by eight tube that's 5% and have a lot of exposed factors?

Think it actually says lapsed siding.

It does say lapsite.

Leave it

to And doesn't say concealed fasteners.

Well, lapsite will always be concealed. I

think it's a good thing we should add. If it does, then it's but then that's

a fair already. I think it says I think it says 5% left sliding.

Is there anything? It It

says left sliding, it also says architecturally appropriate. So that kinda gives us the cover to

Right.

Make the judgment call regarding whether or not we feel comfortable approving it based on the existing architecture.

I

think it's even that before it's happening. So if someone were to come in

Yeah.

To the side of their house in Park Brae and say, I'm gonna I'm gonna put up a large four way sheets everywhere, we would say, we're not gonna approve that administratively. So we would so it's covered. It is it is but it's not gonna be something that's gonna

Well, but it and, again, on your apartment building, we wouldn't want a six story apartment building to have a lab site. Wouldn't be appropriate.

No. But you could mean, there was yeah. We saw that there was a project last week or last time Yeah. That had some lapsiding at the recessed fourth floor. I figured yeah. Yeah. It was an interesting one. Well, it was interesting because even the lapsiding 4th Floor kinda created a lighter 4th Floor because it it was a nice contrast to the heavy brick that all of a sudden you use this lighter material on the on the Top Floor, which

was interesting. Yeah. I know I'm just thinking about what Amiro was saying quite correctly is if you you're trying to clad your building in, like, your multifamily building in fiber cement, it's five story stall, and that's gonna have to have some more visual interest than just lapsided. Right. It's gonna be very busy building. Right.

I mean,

they are actually thinking about that.

But I mean, ultimately, that's gonna come down. If someone comes in with that, I'm gonna I'm gonna first off, I'm gonna tell them. I suggest you come up with some different materials to make it really more interesting. And, ultimately, it's gonna be comfortable. Okay. This is not something that's just gonna happen.

Right. Comfortable. Alright.

So let's let's keep moving. Nishiya. Okay.

I'm gonna

pass out some Nishiya. So just a different one here. Yeah. I'm just picking some random ones here. Let's see. We got a couple others. Here's a couple of couple couple others here.

We got a nice same got a nice There's some black. Black one here. It's black. And that same

I feel like that could look cool, like, mixed in with, like, with that somehow.

You know? Yeah. We just skipped three.

Awesome. It's cool. Anyway, so this is so this is Nishika. So

You have Paul.

Oh, you're doing good with this.

I'm fine. I have Paul at home. I didn't mind this. That's an outstatement. Yeah. So Nishika comes in hand.

It's text. I'm I'm sorry. Let me

back up first. There Michi makes a side. Michi makes a plank side. What I'm showing you right now right? I probably jumped the gun here. This is this is the these are the boards. Michi, wanna

just point out make the plank.

Michi makes a plank side as well. And here's a here's a plank siding.

How does it differ from the Hardie?

Thicker. It's thicker. It's a half inch thick. Oh oh,

it's considered a little bit of a premium. Yeah.

Is the fastening different?

It's very no. It's similar. You can see here diagram, it's still it's still a lapsed sign in. They don't have all the all the decorative profiles, so it's a lapsed sign. So they'll still be going they'll they'll be going through and then you cover up with the next one on top of it. Very, very similar to the hearty. It's it's a little thicker, considered an upgrade to party. We don't see it very often. The wall panels I'm sorry. I jumped the gun.

This is the wall panel. This is what we use.

So this is the niche now wall wall panels. Now this one comes in five eights inch thick. They have a concealed fastener. I'm gonna show you this thing really cool. And I'm gonna I'm gonna I don't know why they used the same the color that they did, but it's a really cool display. It shows how this stuff is actually attached. I don't know why they use this blue. Let me

back up.

So, basically, what they do, they when each of them does their panels, they have a concealed a concealed metal framework that gets attached to the wall. So it's like a it's a GERD system, essentially. And so this this framework here, you can see it from the sides, gets attached to the to the wall, and then your panels put into the so this is how you get no no exposed passengers.

Start by running the bottom.

Yes. You start with the bottom. Exactly. And then just build on top of each other.

Yep.

It's it's by doing this, you get a lot of nice things. You get a it's a true true rain screen, so you get that nice drying effect behind the wall. It allows you to do this insulation on the outside of the the the the water barrier. So it creates the really nice nice nice high performing wall and give you a nice a nice level because it doesn't have the the exposed fasteners. It also you know, when you it's also in terms of laying this out.

When you install this stuff, basically, you install the GERD system, and then you just put things into it. So in terms of alignments, you're not going you're not going panel by panel alignment, but when you get the line up, you're gonna install a metal framework that you can, you know, you can install using laser guidance and you can get a very, very crisp pattern. If you wanted to do a pattern of different ones, maybe you want to do that glossy black one mixed in with some of the gray ones, it's kind interesting pattern, you can do that. Also this one, this machine hot panels are also coming with custom end pieces and corner pieces. So you can get instead of having what I was talking about with the challenge with the party panels, you can get a wider corner.

So that's what you see in that in the photograph right there. Yeah. That's a miter.

It's not

a metal corner. It's not a miter.

It's metal. Metal. It's It's metal.

No. No. It's not it's not it's not

the part of cement. It's metal corner. Metal. It's metal corner. Yes. It's metal. It is actually metal. Yes. Yes. Okay. But it's in tech but it's

in technical to the system.

It's part of the Is

the metal paintable with somebody?

Yeah. It's all painted. It's but it's and it would be but it's it's it's an integral to their system as opposed to so the other ones where you're buying a third party trim piece to kinda look like it. This is this is part of their system. So right. Anyway, I thought this is a really cool thing that they sent me. I don't know why they picked light blue.

We can see it, It's

on the warehouse. I I got this one from one of the reps, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna show this one off.

So for architectural Well, it's that's big. Wall panels, adding concealed bastard.

Concealed mastered on on is is really helpful. I mean, like I said, it gives you the ability to create really precise lines, gets rid of that that flange problem on the corners. Mhmm. It's it's a true rain screen, so you don't have to you don't have to get those things, little clock lined up. This one, you actually can install it as a clock system to, and there are sometimes for our testing to. So reaching out, it can be done.

Could this be on a, like, a single family home, or is that too small? It would be I could be well, this I mean, you could do it, I

think, if you had I can see where, like, if you had a let's say you had a modern got an old an older home and you wanted to do a modern just addition to the home, and you can have large panels.

But this typically bigger Yes. I mean

You could do it if you wanted. I mean, it's hard to

get small.

It's hard to get small.

Oh, it is. You have to buy a lot. But then you do it. So, I mean, like, when I bought mine, I have these on my own. Yeah. This exact one. I have that exact

You have the you have the side of it.

Black.

300 square feet and just have it all. Yeah. You can't buy a 100 square feet have to

get all. And it's not. And it's not Home Depot.

It's No. You know, we definitely

have to

put some stuff in the van.

We weren't gonna get to the end of the floor, different stuff. So But but, you know,

I'm gonna say Oh, sure.

This is definitely on the commercial projects.

It's not so much more expensive that we shouldn't be asking for this. Say, like, in terms of versus the Hardie or It's more expensive than Hardie, but as bill goes on, it's it's just getting more expensive. So this is, the next cheapest thing you can do that actually looks decent. Where does this, in terms of price, compare to something like Enterocod?

Must be the Terracotta. Must be Terracotta. And this could be in the range, I think, generally Terracotta. Of of a metal. Metal panels can be very, very, very expensive, but they

can be pretty cheap. You get what you

pay for. We could do it. We could a whole other thing about metal in terms of, like, do oil canning and then the defamation that you get from him. Hold on. And

metal gets dented, you just Well,

and then metal panels, if they're not if they're not properly reinforced and they're not thick enough, they will actually be deformed in form because they eat Yeah. And they get really wavy looking. It's much more stable. This is a very, very stable material. It's just

So better than no and some apple.

It is I would I would never say that anything is necessarily better than the other. It's just it's a different material, different application, and and it has different closing points. So I don't wanna say something is nothing here we see as bad or worse. It's just a matter of if it used if it's used properly.

Also, I don't like personal thing. I don't like that when they show that with tones.

So, yeah, generally, I don't like free. Alright. Sarah Glad. Let's start in and out from Sarah Glad. Sarah Glad is the end

of notes. It's like a step up for a thing.

This is the. Right?

It is.

Like it looks like it was

like the buy stuff.

Oh, it's not terraform?

No. No. It turns out it's on the department. It's It should be hard

to see if it has lots of extra. That's really nice product. So

not

terraform

No. This is a lookalike.

Oh, I think

Yeah.

And it's like this this means, like, board phone company looks this allows it to look like. Stuff. But they also have some of your stuff over here, which is like Yes. Yeah. But this has a terracotta look through it. Yeah. It does. Yeah. It does. So but the terracotta can be

Yeah. Just

a pass.

So it's

a touch side. Can be nice.

Yeah. Can be

I can see I can see it. Those things like this where you had that texture.

You're staying with some of these, and then some fly. Alex, you're gonna leave, like, brick or masonry.

The brick

and bricks.