Historic Resources Commission - Regular Meeting

to make other than the presentation of the project, I just request that the comment be kept to the matter at hand under the purview of the HRC and that it be limited to three minutes in duration. In attendance this evening, myself, John Myers, Commissioner McEnany, Commissioner Garrity, Commissioner Kaplan, Commissioner Hacker, and Aaron Glennon, Deputy Planning Director is driving the ship here, and Christopher Lohman, the Historic Preservation Planner, is guiding us through the process. We have two items and a public hearing agenda. We do have a quorum, so we can issue decisions on these two public hearing items. First one is 45 2nd Avenue. It's a return visit with more information than was provided. Thank you. And looking for a certificate of appropriateness for the demolition of a structure at 45 2nd Avenue in the South and Groesbeckville Historic District. Would you like to come forward and fill us in on where we are?

So my name is Lynette Terrence, I'm the Director of Operations at Atlanta Bank. And I'm Jason Chacon, I'm the Development Specialist at Atlanta Bank.

Thanks for having us back.

Yeah, I guess we should get started. Yep, so I know the last time we were here, we were instructed to a couple of items to meet with the South End Neighborhood Association and present the property and the plans. We provided a letter from Joanne Morton, who is the president of the South End Neighborhood Association. And we're also instructed to do more investigative, more investigation on the property and the work needed to complete a potential rehab. So we did additional site visits with CT mail.

We provided that.

as well. And our main concern from the CT mail report is really the foundation.

I also provided the initial bid from 2023 to conduct the work and I did contact the contractor to reaffirm his bid price.

And I provided that documentation as well. So getting back to this report, our main concern is the foundation walls. And in the initial, in 2023, the plans initially called for just the front and back of the property to be repaired and really replaced.

And then for the rest of the wall to be repointed.

And our concern, going down there myself with the, the art engineer, sorry, for the CT mail. He's feeling that the wall is getting close to needing to be fully replaced, and still the problem is the front and the back. The front is leaning down the hill, and then the back is the concrete section, which is crumbling, so it's being rebuilt. I guess the exterior is where we kind of . And that picture that says 45 Second Ave 13 on the bottom there, that is the front of the property.

And you can see when you're standing in front of the property that it's leaning, that's what is leaning towards the street.

And then this, if you zoom back out, the 45 second out of 11, that is the rear of the property, and showing some of the conditions of the concrete wall in the back corner. But yeah, generally, most of those pictures are the basement.

The top two floors of the property, the flooring is really in poor shape. There's kind of like a big wave in the middle of the first floor and some warping.

So it was suggested that the flooring would need to be removed and the subfloor would need to be removed and replaced just to shore everything up. There's also, last time we were here, we were talking about the back of the property. And I think we talked about it here. That might have been like an addition at some point. and that was the CT mail's thought process as well. So there's concern with the back part of the property because it's really low ceiling and it's really the unit would need to be reconfigured is what the recommendation was. Primarily the first floor would need to be we have, but some of the second floor as well. I don't know if there's any questions so far.

Is the roof intact? Yeah, so we did a little bit of investigative work.

Yeah, so the roof looks, yeah, there's some pictures here that the roof looks in decent shape. And I know one of the main concerns would be the cornice. as well. I think the chimney, at least on the inside, that looks like it needs to be possibly roof-mounted or something.

I couldn't access the roof directly because the door was locked. We were talking about that on the back of the property, the square structure.

the door that would come out onto the roof but then I think partly to do the foundation but that back back half the property is slightly leaning but probably just because it was like a later addition and it's just kind of really tacked on

How long has the land bank had this building?

Yeah, let's see, we acquired the building in 2019 and so we initially marketed for sale. We had six applicants and they were either, none were accepted either due to an incomplete application or insufficient funds to complete the renovation. So we really try to make sure that the ability to see a project through before we sell the property to them. So that was between... I'm sorry. Yeah, that was in 2024. So prior to 2024 is when we evaluated the project along with 48 and 52nd Ave. And we received funding from the County of Albany through the CDBG This was a CARES grant, so it was around, you know, following up from COVID. And that award was about $1 million. We used that to complete the rehab of 48 and 52nd Ave across the street. And then you can see in the bid, in the bid pricing that we provided, 48 2nd Ave was $645,000, and plus an additional cost for some demolition, and then 52nd Ave, that renovation was $670,000. So that is why the 45 2nd Ave, while we initially included it with those other two properties in that project, it did not move forward, just because we ran out of funding back then. We did do some pre-development work on the site, about $25,000 work, So that was prior to procurement and trying to secure a bid for contractors.

So I lost track. Did you receive it in 2019 or 2024?

Yes, we received it in 2019. And we evaluated with those other two properties in 2022 and 2023. Those other properties were renovated in 2023. And then after that is when we market the properties for sale, and we have the six applicants, as I mentioned. And we were instructed by SHPO to market the site for $1,000, and that's when we began to receive applicants in 2024.

You already knew then the price, however likely it cost?

Yes.

Do you know what the condition of the foundation was when you received it in 2012?

I don't know.

I don't know. I was not here.

But I can say that in the 2022 plans, they called for the repair and replacement of the wall completely along the front and in the back corner.

I guess a general question that I have is when you, I can't remember, I haven't dealt with any of the details of a land bank project for a long time, so I forgot what I knew. But when you receive a project, a building, you receive it with the intention of having it or the intention of demolishing it?

Not necessarily. It's really our mission to bring vacant properties back to reuse. We try to find the best avenue possible. Sometimes that does mean demolition, so most of the time we try as much as possible to rehab the property. When the land bank started, it was primarily, I'd say, a property management organization. in the business of reselling the properties to either home buyers or investors that could really fix up the property. Since then, our methods of acquisition have changed because the county can no longer take foreclosures and just give them to a land bank. So Albany County has an auction process now.

And so our number of properties since that has changed.

has gone down significantly. The number of properties that you hold? Correct.

How many do you hold now?

We probably have approximately 20 buildings.

So I think our current inventory is about 157 properties in total, including properties that we have available, which are lots, and then buildings that we're holding onto that we plan to rehab. And as Jason mentioned before in the past, The land bank was mostly transactional, so the properties that they had, they just put them on the market. But because we don't, we're not acquiring properties in the volume that we were before, we've shifted our model to more of that community development driven. So now as we acquire properties, we slate them either to put them on the market or thank them for development. And then we have more like first time home buyers to provide affordable housing. So when this property, when the land bank acquired this property, we can't answer to whether or not they had immediately decided whether or not they were going to rehab it or put it on the market. We weren't there. Yes, exactly. But again, moving forward, we evaluate the properties to determine whether we keep them or just put them on the market. And again, the cost is what we take into consideration because, for instance, 45 Second Avenue, that's a heavy lift. So we want to make sure that Well, at the time when we put it on the market, we wanted to make sure that the applicants were financially, you know, had the finances to do the work. Otherwise, we'd end up selling it to someone, you know, who wouldn't be successful. And we've run into that.

Yeah, there's a lot of old permits in the window.

Exactly, exactly, yeah.

How much... How much is it generally, kind of once on average, say, within the realm of properties that you have? Yeah, I mean, so recently, in 2025, we completed the renovation of 79 Elizabeth, which is around the corner from this property.

That one was $600,000. That one is 1,800 square feet, I believe.

So this building is a little bit larger than that. And so generally, some of the costs, certainly a property that needs less foundation work and roof work, this one doesn't need roof work, but I'm just thinking of the big ticket kind of cost, would be substantially less.

So that's what you're saying, $500,000, depending on the extent of the condition of the property. But for, like he said, 79 Elizabeth, that was well over $600,000. We also grabbed 257 2nd Street, and then again, 48 and 52nd Avenue, those were well over $600,000 as well. And then this one, the bid was for 725, and that didn't even include the basement work, really. Rebuilding the walls, repointing the bricks. So this one could potentially be well over $700,000. So again, with that money, we could demo this one building new property, potentially take the remaining amount and apply that to another project that we have. So right now we have 11 buildings slated for rehab throughout the city of Albany. And we're working on getting funding for that.

you know, the complicated business. You know, shifting world.

Absolutely. I will add, as well, that I mentioned the Albany auction process. The latest... The county.

Yeah, sorry. No, no, no.

Yeah, the county auction process. The last, the latest auction, which was a few months ago, we were the winning that are on 37th Steven Street, which is adjacent to this property. So it's actually the rear of, so the large picture here, it's the lot that is behind this building. And just so we can make whatever redevelopment of this property easier. And then there is planned new construction at 47 2nd Avenue, which is, up the hill adjacent on the other side of the building.

There's one last question. Yeah. At least from these drone shots, how come the roof looks so good? Who put the roof on it?

I don't know. We were trying to investigate. I don't know. We were trying to investigate if we completed that work or not. And partly because the entire team is different now. Some of these grants are old and we don't have complete records. We guessed that the land bank completed the work, but we do not know for sure. I did look at, I looked through all of the documentation of the disbursement requests along with 4852nd Ave, and it looked like it stopped at the pre-development. So that grant did not fund the roof, I know that for sure.

When you say pre-development...

I was just referring to, like, we did... Can you stabilize a foundation?

Can you put a roof on? Is that kind of within the work that you're doing on the property?

Yeah, the pre-development, I was just referring to, we had the plans created, and we did some tree removal on the site just to get it ready for potential rehab construction.

So I guess my question is, in general, when you acquire properties, do you have, does the funding permit some stabilizing

We do have a source of funds that allows for stabilization. Right now that is currently being used by the other rehabs that I was referring to. So we have 12 rehabs planned to start this summer through the fall. to do some of the stabilization work to complete the roof so there's no more water damage coming in and that kind of stuff. So we're approaching that as a phase redevelopment so we can work on the property and get it ready. With this property, our concern is just the cost is too high and what it would and its ability to detract from our work to work on other properties is our concern.

So the $700,000 is primarily the basement foundation structure that most of that build would come from?

The base bid was, I guess, for the full rehab. So the first and second floors need a lot of work as well. They would need complete renovations. the kitchen is not usable at its current state. And that, like I said, the flooring and subfloor would need to be replaced. So it would be, it would just, that figure was for the full renovation and then there was, it was like an additional cost for the basement replacement.

How successful has the land bank been in marketing vacant lots and for redevelopment? Because that's what we're looking at potentially here. And as a corner building, it really anchors that block. So it's important that that property be developed if this building is to be demolished.

And that's why that was a main part of our process for working. We're having officially acquired it, but acquired 37 Stephen Street so that we could do the landing, could be the developers of the site. And we would, you know, since this is zoned, I think, forget the zoning, is it neighborhood? Hold on, go to that edge. next to a vacant lot to the immediate west of it uh yes yes yes and who owns that uh the the lot is um that's that's um owned by mdg um i forget their full name but um they're they're uh building a uh i don't know if it's single family or two family um or multi-family but a rental

And that's part of the South End development project. The Mosaic South project that they're working on.

And 45 Second Nat is MUNE. It's our mixed-use neighborhood.

Yeah, so it would be our preference to put, you know, replace, you know, redevelop the properties, you know, two units as it is now.

And with the backyard now that we have, we'll be acquiring 37th and Steven Street.

Is Baker contracting who you worked with on the other two projects?

They completed 48 and 56. They completed those two.

Correct.

And it's very interesting to me where they said that they would match the cost from three years ago. If I understood that correctly, that was- Wow. Yeah, that was a- Really? Wow, yes.

could change in a week though.

Yeah, that was just when I was reviewing stuff. And so the number that we have here is 670 from three years ago, right?

That was for 52nd Ave. That's one of the properties we're

It was $725,000. There it is. There's your $725,000. And how much did the demolition cost roughly on a building like this?

I would estimate anywhere from $60,000 to $75,000. We're doing a demolition in the west home area right now. Buildings about this size were six um and that had properties with within a few feet of it um so you know given given the location on the corner i think that add a little bit of cost but um with no buildings next to it i think you know i would expect around 16. yes yep they completed testing back in 2023 or 2022.

So a couple of, I guess, staff notes. So staff's recommendation is basically If the Historic Resources Commission does choose to approve or approve the demolition, staff would recommend that the applicant be required to properly document and photograph the structure, submitting to city planning staff for record retention, including site narratives, architectural descriptions, and photographs of all facades visible from the public right away, similar to what we've done with other demolitions.

That's part of the memo of agreement anyway, isn't it?

It's with SHPO, but I don't believe it was If I remember, I don't think it's stated to be given to us. So we would get our own cut. Along with that, the Albany County Land Bank is in discussions and working with Historic Albany Foundation on some of the debris diversion and salvage.

Well, here's what I wish we could do. I wish we could take some funds and stabilize the foundation and keep the building. That's what I wish we could do. I don't understand, certainly, the inner mechanisms that you have in the funding sources and requirements, et cetera. But it's a corner building. We hate to lose another building. And the roof might be kind of OK. And there's something a little that doesn't sit quite right, which is, although I understand for you all, your funding came as a package for three buildings, right?

Yep. Yeah, I guess that was the initial plan, and because they couldn't change the amount, something had to change, so they changed the scope.

And they put more of the funds into the other two buildings?

Yeah, I mean, I guess so. I guess my understanding of the process, they received this million dollar grant, and then they evaluated the cost of the renovation, so yeah. I don't know if they thought, you know, I guess we would assume that they thought they could rehab three properties with a million dollar grant, and then they had to change scope.

So there's a million dollar, we think. Well, I know that for sure, because I. And three properties. Yep. But you spent more than a million dollars on two properties. Yeah.

Yes.

So what are the other funding,

I would assume that land bank funds paid for that, but I do not know that for sure. I don't officially know the source, but I would assume that the land bank assets.

I believe that those two properties were the first properties or very early properties that the land bank also applied for historic tax credits and sold them on to And that may have also played into some of the funding as well.

Did that work well, as far as you know? Do you know about the historic check fridge?

I know a little bit, but I don't know about how they were used. I don't know how they were used for this project.

Maybe you guys can connect on that, because we're going forward.

That was under Amanda Wyckoff, so that's been a few years now as well.

Understood, I guess my point is going forward it would be good for you all to kind of know that because that's an important, maybe critical piece of funding for the buildings. Not maybe this one, but all projects for the ones that are appropriate.

I think out of the 12 other projects we have, about half are in historic So what's the cost?

Do we have a bid for the foundation stabilization?

Yes, that was $60 per square foot. And I don't remember the square foot off the top of my head.

Would it be square feet or linear feet?

Yeah, we were thinking the same thing.

Yeah, it's on what you were just looking at now. He added $60 per square foot and then $5 per square foot for the repointing. Yeah, the bin and square foot.

So do we know?

We're estimating roughly $45,000, $50,000 for that portion.

Yeah, but the width of the property the building was 23 feet?

Yeah, 23 by 40, I believe. And again, that's not including the 725 base bid. So then altogether that drives it up to about 775, almost 800. And then we all know when you're doing a construction project, something comes up that surprises. So that's why we're thinking it's going to be closer to like $800,000 to do that. And again, with $800,000, we could demolish this building, build a new one, and then take the remaining funds and apply that to another project.

What would a new construction be? What would you estimate that at?

Again, depending on the structure. But we're thinking around $400,000.

Well, if it was gone, it would seem to me that if you could get together with the vacant lot next to it, that something more economically efficient could be put on the corner and get four units out of it. It would basically look like two families, but there might be savings that could be realized from the two of them. because the last thing that you don't want to see is another empty vacant lot on a corner especially. And it would be nice to know what the real plan is for the vacant lot to the west of it. What's the owner's name?

Free demolition? Yeah, but that lot's owned by MTG. Yep, that's the mosaics outcome.

NDGA?

No, NDG. Yeah, NDG. And I would have... I've seen her one or two in family, I just don't know.

Yeah, I don't know for sure, but I know they've submitted all of their plans. Everything, everything's gone through Google.

neighborhood association give you any strong indication?

They're in full support. Yeah they're in full support.

I would say that they're taking a similar approach to us where they want what's best for the neighborhood. So they don't want to see a vacant building remain and they noted challenges of redevelopment in the south end especially. zero mythic sewer properties.

Yes, so Jack, just to paraphrase of the letter that was submitted in the packet is they state the reasons that they're in support, but it is stated from Joanne Morton that the Southland Neighborhood Association supports the ACLB application to demolish 45 2nd Avenue and the City Hall.

Has anybody objected?

to it so far.

Not that we spoke to a local elected official or anybody like that. Because the plan is we would redevelop it and we would sell it to a first-time home buyer at an affordable price. That's what we've been doing.

And that's how we presented it to the South Bend Amateur Association.

Where is that in the process? or any funding applications are in for that, or are you planning for that?

I think that that would be future planned applications. The first step would be getting approval to demolish the building, so we haven't approached the application yet, but that would be the next step.

And the funding would come from?

Most likely, Homestead Community Renewal is our primary funder.

We do have a public comment also. If you guys are ready, just let us know.

We Yeah, you hear me?

You hear me?

OK. Buenas noches. I'm not a proponent of demolition. But in this case, I think demolition would be the best way to go. The cornice I see is of importance, and that should be salvaged. The interiors from what I see don't have any too much historic merit that I can see. So the building is somewhat compromised. Yes, it's on the corner, but I think at some point the building or the site can be redeveloped and the corners be used as a part of the architecture, the new architecture. And the other thing is of importance, this is that Chris mentioned, is the fact that if the building is demolished, a very thorough survey, floor plans, and photographic documentation, not HABS quality, but something close to it should be done. but I am in favor of demolition. The building has been vacant for, what, 20 years or so? And the land bank has been very gung-ho about trying to get somebody to build the building, to buy the building. And I applaud them and all of their efforts, but If nothing happens, it'll just sit there on the corner and be an eyesore and a hazard. So that's all I got to say.

Thank you, William. I have a general question, which is what you just suggested is that the cornice be salvaged and reinstalled as part of future development. Good idea. What's the mechanics of that? How does it get pulled off safe? It needs to be pulled off in whole. It needs to be stored, documented, so that whoever's going to be designing the new work knows what they've got. And it needs to be stored.

Right? Yes. So we're going to have to figure that out.

Because Historic Albany, unless you come up with some financial arrangement with them, there, as a salvage operation, it's available to others. But the best we could do, and Lee, that's a productive statement, thank you. But the best we could do is figure out how to have the highest level of assurance that that cornice is available for a reconstructed building. You haven't done that before, have you? It's a new crew.

This is all new, so there's no difference.

Do you have a warehouse? We do not.

We're happy to partner with Historic Albany to help us make that happen. I mean, we would love to be able to repurpose it.

Well, they'll have some expertise for you, for sure. But again, it would be the intended use and the ownership, et cetera, would be, I assume, pretty unusual for them, but they'd be a wonderful resource. Well, that's great.

It's great to hear.

Yeah.

Well, that's helpful. Of course, the demolition does get somewhat stalled.

Well, that's part of the demolition contractor needs to be advised that 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, well, 2, 3, 4, 5, and number one is to carefully remove the cornice and relocate it to whatever you guys. Well, couldn't it just be relocated to, you know,

short on site yeah but i would be concerned that well you know is it metal or is it wood i think it's wood it looks like wood oh that's better than if it was metal yeah you can disassemble it

It was trying to probably be like the cornice reformatted in place, which is floating still floating around in place. Somewhere. 20 years later. Yeah. Well, if you're looking for cornice, you have to take this one from this landing property and put it on that landing property.

Well, I'm ready to put a motion on that.

I would propose that we accept the proposed demolition of this property with the following conditions. One were, as spoken to by staff, relative to the documentation, and the second condition would be there's a little bit of a gap between lee's understanding of the interior and uh cara's recommendation relative to sub so we should leave the historic albany foundation's uh potential to salvage interior elements as as was written that's number two and number three that a good faith effort on the part of the land bank be explored and presented back to us relative to careful salvage and storage of the cornice with the understanding that it would be part of a future reconstruction project second And that'd be, no, no, no, no, I just say, no, no, no, take that back for a second. And that we receive that, that you come back and communicate with us. And that I think might be useful, because we might run into this again, and what do we learn from this that consumes things or facilitates things. So, okay, second.

those in favor any further discussion one observation you know if this were freestanding row house and we were doing the same thing to talk about the car the corners we'd be talking about something that was 25 feet long because it's a corner piece of property at 25 another 25 maybe even the third yeah pretty big you know so to really mandate this could be unreasonable to put in a suggestion and a way to cooperate with historic quality and other experts, et cetera, et cetera. But you may find that this would be prohibitively costly, especially because you've got two sides that are going to be exposed to the public. So I think it's a recommendation. It's a friendly recommendation and sincere one mandate could be unrestricted.

Yeah. And the way Marilyn worded it with good faith effort, I think she put that across, don't you?

Yeah. Because the wording of the motion as well is also to come back to the HRC, you guys could, if William Beck does come back and say it's prohibited, it'll be expensive.

recommendation is to return to the HRC, not to staff for that.

It would be pretty cool if you could say that. So we have a motion and a second. I understand the good faith effort, the disposition of this consistent chorus. back to the HRC taking place. All those in favor of the motion? Aye. Opposed? Okay. It's carried. Go forth. Good luck. Thank you so much. Thank you for your work. Thank you for your time.

Jason, you'll get an email from me probably Monday or Tuesday, kind of outlining

decision, all of that stuff, and then we'll start coordinating when you guys will come back.

Great. Thanks for all your correspondence.

I appreciate it.

Have a good evening.

Thank you. Have a good night. Next item on the agenda is 254 Clinton Avenue. Clinton Avenue in North Pearl. Clinton Square Historic District and appropriateness is being sought for the modification to an existing historic stoop and a new railing for the stoop.

Yes, let's see. I have a couple of pictures. I hope you don't mind paper. Oh, I'm going to introduce myself. My name is Colin McCoy. I own the house and I'm doing all the work myself. Yes. What you've done on that Oreo window is really impressive. Oh, thank you. I was going to actually, I'm going to pass around a picture of that. So let's see.

Yeah, we like paper.

So if you like paper, I'm a paper kind of guy. You like paper. Yes. I use hand tools and I like paper. Let's see. Here's some paper. I think this is for those there, and then three of these, and then three of these.

Oh, okay, we can, do you need another one of these, Chris?

Oh, they have one, okay. I think they're all there, I think they're all there, yes. So, I'd like to start by thanking the Commission for hearing about my handrail and my stove and my house. Thanks also to Chris for walking me through the procedures. And also thank, I'd like to thank my architect. I think you know. And I'm assuming that you've seen his statement as to addressing the issues, the issue of architectural appropriateness. But I'd like to address another issue and that is affordability. Okay, now first, As I understand it, the question is not as to the historical character, historic character of my handrail, but solely as to whether there can be any wood on it. And I'd like to emphasize that our proposal is for a composite construction. All of the structural components, the structural components will be all steel, and the wood will be merely decorative. It's also my understanding that an entirely modern style of handrail is permitted and presumably, I can't document this, but presumably that's because the traditional one would be too expensive. Now that is affordability. Now my proposal is intended to make my handrail much more in keeping with architectural tradition than any of the brand new handrails in my neighborhood. There are quite a lot of them, about 70 I believe. So I passed around the picture of my oriole as an example of my devotion to architectural tradition. Let's see. Basically, I repaired the sashes and I completely rebuilt the whole structure, except for that one bottom piece, the piece on the bottom. and I had to buy two pieces of curved glass to replace the old ones that were broken. I still have two of the originals, but they weren't cheap either.

They still cost $3,000?

What's that? The last time I had to... Well, no, well, this is several, this is seven or eight years ago. I went to a place in Red Hook in Brooklyn, and they cost $500 a piece. $500, that's pretty good. Not well. I mean... Not cheap, but yeah. Yes, I think they'd be more now. If the company's even still in business, I don't know. I'm also devoted to doing the work myself. Otherwise, the whole project would be prohibitively expensive. Well, I did a little calculating about the previous project, and if you divide the amount of money by the square footage, that's $333 a square foot. and that would be a million dollars for my project, which I ain't got. So now if I were an ornamental iron worker and I had a welding and fabricating shop, there would be no problem with having a very traditional mule post and handrail, but because I'm a carpenter, I'm proposing that I be allowed to put in basically the newel posts are steel posts surrounded by a square, basically a square piece of, well, glued together pieces of wood. And by the way, I know part of the, wood has a bad reputation with some people because it does, after all, a lot. I spent quite a bit of time rebuilding an old wooden sailboat and I know a little bit about preventing rot and which species of wood are durable and how to accentuate the durability. So that shouldn't be an issue here. And also, all of the wood parts are going to be painted black. So unless somebody were to come and tap on them with a hammer, I don't think anybody would know the difference. And so the other picture that I passed around, this is – My ideas were partly inspired by this particular handrail and newel post down the street on Clinton Avenue. It's 168 Clinton Avenue. It's a beautiful Queen Anne-style row house that's been sitting unattended to for probably 30 or 40 or 50 years. Well, you can see that the box bill post is completely rotted away. And obviously, I'm not proposing to make the traditional curlicues and all of that. And the modern code, of course, requires less than four inches maximum between the posts. So I'm going to be building a steel structure.

And then my proposal is to put a wooden handrail on that.

So a wooden, not quite as large as that picture there, but a wooden covered dual post. And then if you can see, if you see the handrail there, it's a beautiful piece of work. It's cast iron. And that would be, the cost of that would be astronomical. And I could do it quite handily out of, I don't know, Douglas fir or mahogany or oak or whatever is available. Well, that's the long and the short of it.

What about the brownstones?

The brownstones? Oh, you mean the stones, the stope itself. My stope and the one at 168, I believe, are the only ones on my side of Clinton Avenue remaining as far up and down the street as I can see. Well, I don't know. There might be a couple of others somewhere. But I'm preserving it, yes. And I believe on the other side of Clinton Avenue, there are two or three remaining stone stoops. My understanding is that during the, what's it called, the Vulcan Project of 40 years ago, that a whole bunch of sandstone stoops bundled up and shipped away to God knows where. And they're all wood now.

They're with the cornice.

What's that?

They're with the cornice.

Oh, yeah, they're with the cornice. That's right, yes.

You've got quite a bit of stone repair to do, don't you?

A little bit of stone repair, not a whole lot. That's your stoop? That's a stoop, yes. That's not yours? That's mine, yeah, that's my stoop, yes, yeah.

Yeah, so it's outlined in the drawings that they have proposals for the repair, and then they also are doing, hey, where is it? A wood groove board infill over the basement entry where on the right side is. Yeah. Yeah, so for the staff side, and kind of why it's here before you guys is, you know, we reviewed the application for the USDO, and that the railing be replaced with any kind of historically appropriate decorative raw iron railing. Historically, the property had iron railings consistent with other properties in the district. The proposed railing, as Colin stated, you know, be noted that it doesn't adhere to Section 375.206.1 , which is the stoop section of the HRO. It states, in the event that a rail is missing, the new rail should be custom made, be compatible with the style of the building of the surrounding district, or practicable, or a modern non-decorative rail, or a salvaged historic rail appropriate to the style of the building. So in additionally, the concern that staff has is that allowing the modification of this nature could set a precedent within the historic district that a non-historically based modification and style not compatible with the structure be approvable, which is why planning staff recommended denial and why we still recommend denial of a decorative non-historically based modification. Why is it unhistorically based? Because, so in the we looked at the blue form in the National Register nomination for this site. So it's highlighted 250 to 272 Clinton, a nearly unbroken row of two-story 1870, two-story brick Italianate-style row houses constructed mainly in the 1870s and featuring iron window and door trim and wood bracketed cornices. And then in the building-specific description, we have a two-story brick residence of a high basement where it states, with a high stoop with iron railings, consistent with 250.252's death statement, showing that these all were reasonably cataloged with the same understanding. So our understanding of it would be that historically it had an iron stoop rail. Of course it did. And so in precedent setting with the city and how we interpret our documentation is that we often recommend what the code says, which is a modern non-decorative rail or a salvage rail that could be, you know, if you have one side,

Ritos, Ritos again, a modern non-decorative rail.

Sure, so it can be, let's find it. The new rail should be a custom made to be compatible with the style of the building of the surrounding district where practicable or be a modern non-decorative rail or a salvaged historic rail appropriate to the style of the building. So in the past, what we have allowed would be a modern non-decorative rail, salvage railings, Or in some cases we've had a salvaged rail and then a manufactured rail to match the salvaged rail if they didn't have one. So they could create a mirrored rail. These are the things that we've had in the past.

Did I hear that right, what the applicant is saying that he would use wood and paint it black?

So it would be a steel, as Con said, it would be a steel construction. and then it would be capped with wood, same with the newel posts, and then it would be painted black. Are you talking about the railing? That would be wood? It would be.

And the newel?

A piece of wood on top of the handrail. The structure would be steel, but a piece of wood on top to avoid cast iron.

So does perhaps some of this discussion include whether or not the proposed railing is decorative or not?

So I think what it would be is, yeah, it would be considered decorative as, you know, we know that based on kind of what we have from the National Register documentation and from how we interpreted the code and how we have in the past, it would be considered a more decorative railing than what we historically have identified as on the property.

And what makes it decorative?

Yeah, so it would be the newel post, it would be the wider newel post as well as the rail. We don't regulate paint color and so while there's a statement of painting it black, it could at any point just be painted to a different color or unpainted. That's not to say in good faith to Colin. That's to say at any point that could be done. And yeah.

I have a different question, which is if we look at sheet A3, it's the bottom rail, the stringer, steps up around the stairs. both the existing they go back to this is a one existing is follows the it's it's a straight straight rail there rather than sawtooth and that would be typical and in fact just ironically maybe is the photograph that we've got does not step down in that sawtooth manner.

I'm proposing that that would be a very expensive piece of wildery to have those steps. It's not in Lee's drawing, but I'm proposing that it to be a straight piece that would be fairly close to the steps to avoid so that children can't stick their heads down in there. but that it be simplified in that way. So, but you're quite right, it's a little unusual having that step.

Have you looked into any salvage railings that might be available that would pertain to your job?

Well, it's a matter of finding one that fits almost exactly. I've looked around and And if you know of any really nice ones, you can let me know. But if you see a really nice one, it ain't going to be cheap. So, I mean, I'm pretty familiar. I'm pretty regular over at the salvage warehouse over on Lexington. And no, I don't think that's really seriously an option like this. That would be like finding salvage, you know, all the houses originally were two sets of doors with a little vestibule. And I still have the original exterior doors, except that somebody went to it with a chainsaw. Okay, so I'm going to be rebuilding those. But can you imagine shopping around at salvage stores and finding doors that would fit 11 foot high and 28 inches wide? So yeah, that kind of stuff is just, it would be like finding, just accidentally finding cornice that would fit.

So Chris, I want to try something else. Sure. Back to A3. The worst railings that we see are pressure treated wood railings. And that's what we're really, I think, very reactive. We react strongly to those. And that's probably part of the basis of how that's written. This is not very decorative. It's got a newel at the base to help the whole railing be sturdy. It's got a cap, a pyramid cap of some sort to help shed water. They're functional. And so if we collectively felt that it was not a decorative railing, then where are we in the language issue?

Yeah, so primarily it's the two sections of the decorative nature of the rail, and then as well as that, again, as well as that in-kind replacement of material is what's expected, and because wood wasn't present there before is the other aspect of this.

which are the two sections of the code that this kind of is falling under, would be that in the same way that, you know, we wouldn't see certain materials on windows or things like that in addition to them.

It's kind of those two parts are where under the code it states, you know, in-kind replacements are expected or requested as well as...

So what do you think about the fact that we have a non-original rail? So we're not really... trying to do an in-kind replacement. I mean, if we do an in-kind replacement, it's to a non-original rail.

Right. We do an in-kind material replacement often. I think the way to explain it would be the same with what we do with windows, which would be that we see non-original windows are still replaced with an in-kind material if we know it was present on the structure. If we know it was present on the structure. So if we know it was a wooden window, we're going to approve a wooden

So in-kindness to the historic material. Yeah, the historic material. Not the existing material.

And in a lot of cases, too, it's also either matching what's there or a more simplistic feature rather than going back with a six-over-six window, we would recommend just doing a one-over-one.

We didn't know exactly what the specific design was originally.

Which is our case here.

Which is the case here, right?

You don't want to create something based on conjecture, which is directly from the code.

So our recommendation is that when we have applications, I just look forward to a faculty more simplistic design. Something that's not going to detract from everything else around it, especially if we have other historic features. I think in this case, when we're saying it's a higher design or it's more decorative, like the addition of a decorative railing cap and then the more kind of high decorative mule posts, but we don't specifically know that those were there or ever present on the building, is something more decorative or we would recommend something more sensitive inside. If that makes sense. picking features that we might see from other places and other buildings in the district. We don't want to just say, well, on this higher style architectural building down the street, and so we want to put that on this building. And that might not be the case or be appropriate for that style of the building.

But whether we collectively keep discussing whether this is a decorative rail or not, you still have the material issue.

So I do have one question because we have the addition of wood features on a teal railing structure. Have you looked into what it would be to maybe just have a slightly, I'm gonna quote Lee, heftier style of knoll posts and maybe capped railing? Because if you're already having the metal frame manufactured, what would that additional cost be? Because you're having the metal frame created, but then you're adding the additional wood to that. So would there be, what would that cost be to just have a metal?

Well, the metal newel post, it's hard to tell exactly what's available, but my guess is about $600 to $800.

I'm not saying it has to be as, like, the same size as what you're proposing with the wood.

Oh, you mean a square one? Okay, now I'm a little confused about all this business about replacing what was on the building. I don't think anybody knows what was on that building. I mean, unless we have pictures. And my idea was that unlike the 70 other handrails, which I think are totally incongruous, with the architectural style of the neighborhood. Unlike those, I was going to propose to make one that's traditional, and I never claimed that it's copied after what was actually on that building, because I have no idea what actually was on that building.

Can you go back to the existing?

The existing was like a modern one that when all the houses were being rebuilt up and down the street, That was taken off of one of those, and I salvaged it, and then I fastened it rather inexpertly to the stone stoop, just so that somebody wouldn't fall off the steps of the gliding. So that's strictly temporary. I suppose that could be modified. I mean, I could take that, and I could weld vertical pieces in between the existing ones. But I was just thinking that I wanted to do something a little nicer. And the idea that wood is forbidden, I just think is somewhat arbitrary, and I'm trying to make a pragmatic proposal to have something that looks nice and traditional. Again, unlike the 70-odd brand-new handrails up and down the street that are all exactly the same and that look absolutely, I can guarantee you, they look absolutely nothing like anything that was in the neighborhood 140 years

I totally applaud your efforts. I think you're in a, as you're hearing, we're struggling the same way, and we got our ordinance, and we know somebody will be behind you afterwards, so we're always worried about our own precedents. But I am somewhat intrigued by the notion of adding on to, and this one gets kind of far out there, but adding on to your existing rail, and I think from additional posts. And it's, we've got a lamb's tongue at the base, that's the nice part, but I think what I really want to say is I'm worried about your brownstone. Yes. And hope that we can maybe work with you to just share some of the knowledge that we have about brownstone repair.

Right, okay, well Lee has filled me in on the recommended materials to use to repair.

What did he speak to, do you remember?

I don't remember off the top of my head, yes. But I actually, I took a whole bunch of pieces of brownstone

from the same, not from the steps, but from chunks that were broken off.

You see there's some on the side there. And I pulverized them and saved the original material. And then I'm going to use some of the coloring material that you can put in to mix sand and plant stone. I mean, lime and orchid cement, and that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a little experimenting with it to make sure that the color is right. That's great. And then...

Try to not use much Portland.

What's that? I don't mind. Try to not use much Portland.

Right, no, not too much Portland, yes. And also, you're probably going to need some stainless steel or Teflon dowels that you want to drill in. Oh, absolutely, yes, yes. So, anyway, I'm worried about your brown cement, but...

I mean, I mentioned that you could, like, you could model, but the fact is this handrail, it really doesn't fit. I mean, I don't know if you can see. I mean, it's not, I mean, it's on there, and it's standing up, but it's not really, I mean, it's not really designed to fit those sticks, and that's the problem with taking an existing one and trying to put it on there. And I'd rather not use this one. And, you know, I mean, if it's decreed that I have to have a plain, simple, modern-style steel handrail, well, so be it. But I'm proposing that I do something that's a little bit more traditional, albeit not made out of wrought iron or cast iron.

I think that if you're willing to go with a simple steel rail, metal rail, as we're talking about here, manufactured to the riser tread ratio you have on your stair, that there would be some not big lifts to improve the appearance beyond just a modern rail that might be pleasant to your eye and fit our needs. So, for example, people, go back to that photo. There's a lance tongue, you know, how that terminates the base. A little bit of room you might have there. The size of the top rail.

Well, we're talking about a blacksmith shop there, you know, bending the steel to fit a pattern like that.

It's an iron shop, yeah. It's not a blacksmith.

Well, it's blacksmith work to take steel and heat it up and to bend it. Okay. Well, it would be ornamental iron work.

It's an ornamental iron.

Yeah, right, right, yes. But it's a blacksmithing job of heating the steel. I mean, it's not just welding. Yes, and there are lots of welders out there, but there are not too many people who know how to bend steel. And besides that, as I said, my aim is to be, as much as possible, doing it myself to keep the costs. I mean, my concern, Lee's concern, is strictly architectural. My concern is doing something that looks really nice, but that I can do it myself, and thereby save a lot of money. I'm already spending a lot of money on this, not to mention everything else I'm doing, and I don't have unlimited funds.

So we don't really have the wherewithal to address the finances. That's not in our ordinance. But there is a process for an applicant to say this is unaffordable and to receive permission to proceed based on the financial hardship of that.

Yeah, that would be a financial hardship hearing, which would not be the purview of today's hearing. Right. So what would happen for that is you guys would, hold on.

Deny that. To her?

Well, that would be, you would approve the recommended denial, and then, Colin, you can then pursue a financial hardship.

Well, there would be no point in that. I mean, if I'm being denied the financial hardship, the ability to build the handrail that I'm intending, then I'm just going to have to go with it. Basically, I mean, I'm going to be welding together something that's going to look much like that.

Well, but nicer.

Well, it'll fit the stairs better. Yes. And I don't really, I mean, you know, I have a friend with a welder, and we can slap it together. So it's affordable, but as I said, my idea, my aim here, the whole purpose of this whole thing and this whole proposal is to try to go contra what's happened to all the other houses up and down the street with the handrails that I think look kind of hideous, to have something that's more appropriate to the style of 1870s and 80s. I mean, in other words, I'm proposing a compromise between having something, and indeed, our proposal isn't particularly decorative, but it's very traditional, and very much a 19th century. It's like the one in that picture, except without all the curly Qs. I mean, that would be ridiculous to try to build that today, and the code requires to have four Ns. more than four inches orange spaces so the practical thing to do is just and so I'm trying to be practical about this but also to at least give a nod to tradition and and just as the rest of the house I'm basically in for the most part preserving it exactly as it is it's not actually a The Oriole was not actually original to the house. That's by my calculation. You can see it there. By my calculation, that's 1920s. The physician who owned the house didn't want to have his patients ducking under the stoop, and so he built that nice little entryway on the left. And apparently he had Oriole envy because the houses on both sides, most of the houses in this block have nice Orioles, and so evidently he chopped a big hole in the wall and he put that in which matched the 1920s style, you know, neoclassical of the little door. And so it doesn't match the Italianate architecture of the cornice or the hood ornaments. But I don't know, but it's kind of an interesting mix and I'm not far be it for me to be going and putting something completely different in.

Well, in contrast, I have tremendous respect for Lee. But sometimes I disagree with him. And I do not find the proposed railing to be more compatible with the 19th century nature of this building. than some other opportunities. That's number one. Some other designs. I don't find it to be, it doesn't speak to me as being tremendously compatible with the character of the building. Number one. Number two is, I'm sorry too about what's happened under Mark, where was the last second? No, under Vulcan, under the Vulcan project. But we're not dealing with all those other buildings. We're just dealing with this building right now. But I hear you. And I am very respectful of staff's opinion that we should hold on to our requirements relative to material. And if it's a bigger problem for us long term, we should go and look at changing the ordinance. But we want to stay and support staff in their... I do. in their reading relative to this issue of material. And that whole precedent issue is very important to us because it all comes back. So I can imagine one of two solutions. One would be that a simple metal railing, perhaps with more finessing of the size of the materials, the size of the vertical posts, the lamb's tongue at the end, the width of the top railing, whatever, and a little bit more finessing be done to give it a little bit of variation more than this. And I think that would be a compatible solution for this building. Or we recognize that we can't approve it based on an ordinance of what you're proposing, so.

Because it's got wood in it.

Because of the material. And so we go through the, you, we deny it, you go through the process and with the hope that the financial presentation that you make, which is very impressive, is what helps let that get approved.

Okay, if I could say one thing though, as far as, it's true that the

drawing that we made has two pieces of wood and what I'm proposing actually that we do is that we copy the one that's from down the street which is cast iron and it's this wide and it's rounded on the edges and it's well it's from 1870s and so I think that that would be That would be appropriate. Also. It was just as a matter of comfort walking up this walking up the stair and grabbing a nice solid handrail like that but again Cast iron this would be bread. Yeah, I can't imagine Astronomical yes. Yes.

What number is that one that you mentioned?

Pardon me? Was it 184 or something like that? Oh, 168, 168 Clinton Avenue. Yes, it's a beautiful house, and it's been languishing.

Also, as the discussions developed, just to be clear, with using information from a second structure, that could bring up a concern against 1.375.206.1 , which is repair or replacement of missing architectural features should be based on accurate duplication of features substantiated by historic, physical, or pictorial evidence. rather than conjectural design or the availability of different architectural elements from other buildings or structures.

Understood. But we still have to select materials and choose dimensions, etc., but understood.

Okay, well, if I could just express my opinion. I mean, that's all very logical, but I just don't think it makes much sense. Okay, so we're going to be very strict about not allowing me to build this kind of handrail. So where was the hearing for the 70 other, you know, very modern handrails that were put in six years ago? You know what had me a little puzzled with the pieces? We'll make wooden steps and we'll use steel railings. Can we reverse that? Where the anul post becomes the wood, I don't know, Well, yeah, I mean, up and down the side, you've got all the steps are all made out of wood, and they're made out of that same crappy preserved, you know, what's it called? Treated wood, and they're not very well built, and they'll be rotten in about 10 years. And I guarantee you that when I put in my mahogany handrail, that it's not going to rot in 10 years.

Another approach could be, I mean, you're building a steel railing. Yes. And if you landed the steel railing on a heftier tube, you know, a 4x4 tube as its terminal. Yes. You know,

Like a square post, a square iron post.

Basically a square iron post. That's right, yes. You've maintained the materiality that seems to be a critical factor here.

Well, I think that would be a reasonable modification, but I would still like to have a piece of wood that you can grab onto when you're climbing up the stairs, and it just seems to me unreasonable. As you said, up and down the street we have We have not very well-built wooden steps, and it seems to me unreasonable to insist that the piece that you grab by your hand has to be iron because it would have been 140 years ago. It seems to me arbitrary.

If you did this, what would that mahogany piece of wood, how would it be attached to the holes? So one could argue that it's reversible. So if it didn't exist, you'd still have a railing and that would meet it. And if afterwards it had a cap go on, it screwed on so it was secure, that'd be reversible.

Yes. I'm not sure I understand what... Because it's put there for safety.

If they were substantial for you, to be able to reach on something that has a little more meat to it than the rather cold metal that's there, made and icy. And so you'd be putting a sleeve on it that's actually from the top. And it's almost reversible if you consider it just as a safety requirement, particularly in the winter, where you wanted something that was more comfortable. That's right, yes. In which case, I don't see where it would be a problem.

So the reversibility piece is what you're thinking is that like we always talk about reversibility that if that deteriorates the stair as approved is still intact.

It's still there. The next owner years in the future didn't like it. They could take it off and everything would still comply.

Yeah, that's what we call it.

You know, we have nice, shiny flooring on the top step in a lot of places. But it's dangerous. And so we put a mat on it. So it's not dangerous. So if you have to have a floor, but you put something on top of it to make it safer or more comfortable. you gotta have a metal railing, but you could put something on top of it to make it more comfortable. And if the next person came and said, I don't like that at all, they could take it right out and you'd still be in compliance. If you consider it something reversible, it might even be almost something that would help somebody who was handicapped, who found it easier to grab something round rather than something that's hard and cold. What if some little kid put his tongue on it? Sounds like a Christmas story. Do you have a motion there, Jack?

No, I'm thinking that the

the mahogany sleeve going up there would be reversible and certainly wouldn't bring the neighborhood down and might be a handicapped improvement which is perfectly temporary just unscrew it it's not there anymore that's right so we would have a full metal railing with a

top middle rail with a wood piece on above.

Yeah. And he's saying that I prefer something, I prefer a dual post that would be wood, but I could live with maybe a circular metal one. So there's your halfway. So there's the whole frame, everything that you want. And it's with this option that could be added on a voluntary basis, it's safe, doesn't do anything to change the compliance that's already there. Just makes it handier. Literally handier.

The metal handrail with a slightly, somewhat larger terminal post at the bottom also in metal metal and that's what we're approving yeah i think the metal and the wood cap could be installed at the owner's discretion but the metal railing is still there exactly and you guys would have to make a determination

that it's not explicit within the certificate of appropriateness and Colin does it, then he's in violation.

So you guys would just have to explicitly state yes or no on the handrail because what's going to happen is the way Colin has a permit, the permit says what he's proposing before you guys right now is what's there.

He can revise his drawings and his work and then it's got to match the approval of the COA.

So we can't say we're going to just leave out the handrail and he can choose to install the wood capping. If you want the wood capping to be included, it needs to be.

It can't just be like, oh, the wood capping can be installed on a temporary basis. Well, I would prefer, yeah, yeah. One moment.

What's been temporary? Or how long is temporary?

You know, and if the building department goes out and looks at what was approved as part of the permit, part of the certificate of appropriateness, they see that it's a metal handrail, and Colin goes ahead and installs a wood cap on it, that'd be opening him up. Yeah, we don't want that.

Besides that, I'm proposing to have a wood wooden, a piece of wood fastened to the steel rail. I'm proposing to have that, and I'd like to have that approved and not pretending that that I'm just going to add a piece because I think it's intact. I mean, this is a point of principle with me being a carpenter. I think it's entirely appropriate to use wood in some cases where it has an enhancement and it's affordable. And well, maybe it's not entirely consistent with the ordinance, which by the way, I think is arbitrary.

Let's see if we can keep going. Let's go back. With the wood, the metal structure, as we're talking about with the tool and spacing, et cetera, et cetera, if we were to approve this, the approval would be with a demountable, an attached but demountable wooden rail what it is it's it's a the whole railing is intact the whole railing is is the railing is wood and then we were we would be adding a uh i don't know if there's any value of a word like demountable here it may not even be required we're playing big brother on this if he does what he has to do according to the ordinance that we have to go by he's going to be totally metal

And he's already said, yeah, I'd rather have wood, but dual post is going to be probably round metal or square metal. We've done everything we just proved, and it's certainly consistent. Make sure it's four inches so the bull doesn't get their head stuck, right? And then he does nothing to destroy that, but he has the right to have a hole in it, Doesn't matter. You can have it for drainage for all you care. And he decides to screw in this metal piece that he's created because it makes it handier. It looks more attractive. And that's really none of our business. So that's not how the code is written.

The code explicitly states we do the material. You guys just have to. if you guys want him to have a rail, want him to have the wood, so everything we've said about steel, you could, you know, steel, new, old, post. You know, that's a condition of the approval. You can also just state that you as the commission are allowing him to install the wooden railing. And if you want to condition it in a way which is a non-invasive, you know, non-invasive removable mounting, you can condition. The concern from an enforcement and from the code section is going to be if you don't explicitly say it, that it's allowed. When codes goes out, the COA, if you don't explicitly say it, the COA will not say approval for the wooded. So that's all it is. It's just if our guys want the rail, just state that he's approved to have in that non-invasive mountable.

Let me suggest we add something else in that. theme, which is what we really don't want long term is a piece of pressure treated wood thrown on top of railings. That's what we don't want. So here we're talking about a piece of select number one. You'll tell us if it says you want a hardwood or mahogany or what kind of wood. So it would be a zerk first. Or whatever it is, you're the woodworker. And in addition, there is something about the profile and the dimensions that will, the profile and the dimensions that will discourage future pressure treated pieces on top of that metal.

Somebody coming up with a flat piece of wood. Exactly. So that's what we don't want long term. That's our president's concern.

So what's the best quality wood you'd put up there?

Well, I would lean towards mahogany because it's durable. I mean, it's a hardwood, it costs more than it used to, but I'm not talking about a huge amount. But I don't know, I would say either mahogany or Douglas fir or white oak, but probably mahogany.

Mahogany, okay. And then the...

There are lots of different kinds of mahogany, by the way, so... Well, that's why I started to ask you which mahogany.

Yeah, but I'll leave that for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll leave that to you. But we should maybe come back and our staff or wood assistants can review the profile that we think will be compatible with the kind of the spirit of this 19th century building. Is it painted? What's that? The wood railing painted?

I'm proposing to paint it black. Great.

Okay. Great.

Yes.

I suppose a lover of mahogany might have heard it. That means if I make a few little marks with my hammer, I can fill them in with Bondo and paint it black.

To clarify also, we have no motion. This has all been discussed. That's correct. I just want to clarify that. Right, correct.

Are you going to make any kind of revised drawings?

Yeah, we're going to do a revised, we'll do a revised drawing. Yes, right. Including the, you know, making a straight line at the bottom and the profile of the wood handrail garden. And a simplified mill post.

Is there a reason for us also when there's a revised drawing that's submitted to get a description of the process for repairing brownstone material?

It's probably spelled out.

I don't think so. I think it just said repair.

So he has spelled out. Let me pop around on his drawing a little bit. So on the east elevation of the stoop he has noted along with the groove board until on the A3 applying JHNM70 patching mortar and stone surface.

Oh, Jan, he's got the Jan mortar there.

He's got that, he's got a, he's recommending Cathedral Stone products as the masonry.

I'm sorry, yep, you got it. Sorry, I missed it on another one.

Drawing N1 basically has this whole specification manual printed. So that provides a lot of detailed information.

Ready for a motion? Jack, who's yours?

I'll let you come up with something. No! Is there something where you have to deny it?

No, we're off that. We're not denying it. We're off that. We're trying to approve it.

Subject to having a... Revised drawing. Yes. A revised drawing which would show a more substantial metal dual post. Entirely done in metal as required. And that it would, with the understanding that it would be provided with a provision which will not damage the metal that would allow a wooden cap rail.

And that we would get a revised drawing to be submitted including the profile of the upper rail. and that the rail will be of a high quality hardwood material and painted black.

Personally, I defer to the staff. We all have an understanding of what we're talking about.

Do I second the motion? I second the motion. Okay.

Do we have a motion?

following conditions is a revised drawing set showing a more substantial newel post constructed entirely of metal, a revised drawing showing a non-invasive mounting of the wooden capped railing, and a revised drawing including the profile of the railing, the material, and noted that it would be painted black.

So the drawing will come to the staff? Yeah. That's what's on the floor. I'm just wondering the precedent of black.

We don't want to get into a precedent of doing what we can't do. Correct. So how can we say that?

Be finished to match the adjacent metal.

So Jack, would you like to amend, would you like to accept the amendment? Yeah, so.

That was seconded by Chris.

Chris accepts the amendment to the. All right, before we think about this any longer, all those in favor? We have a motion. All those in favor? Aye. Opposed? Okay. It is carried. Thanks, staff. Okay, well, thank you very much.

Thank you.

Well, thank you for your patience. We have to have another hearing. We'll submit the drawing.

So as with everything else, I will bother you with the email. Okay. You'll let me know. You'll tell me what to do. I'll spell it all out in the mail for you.

And maybe if you will pardon my

You can always come visit me downstairs. Okay, thanks again. Thank you.

Thank you for the work you've been doing. Oh, well, thank you.

Thank you. The Pine Hills AKA St. Rose

forward. As announced in the press, and it's been sent, and you can get this online, an RFP that will be due on the 15th of July for somebody to put in housing, retail, and we'll, as it was said in the press, not necessarily in the RFP, it would be extensive demolition. I went to, nothing in there is the word historic preservation written in the RFP. I went and spoke to somebody, I'll be nameless because I think we still have our TV in, saying, well, what about the historic preservation? I fully expect there should be demolition, and I assume it should start with Lima Hall, and there's an industrial building that are just mess and they need to go and everyone agrees with it. What I was told was, well, there's nothing on the national register. They're not registered, so they're not covered. I said, well, national register eligible basically works the same way. No, it's not in writing there. No, it doesn't go in there. I think we have a responsibility. I was not pleased with the presentation that we had a while ago. We only had a couple of places that could be put on the National Register, starting with the cement block on the corner of North Pine Avenue and Lancaster, for example. I would really think that the entire city of Albany takes a look at the Pine Hills block of St. Rose. They look at Manning Boulevard. They look at a number of other places that are definitely eligible for the National Register, if not for a local designation. It's not fair to a bidder to assume that they can pretty much demolish anything in their plant. There's going to be a lot of people upset and it's going to interfere and everybody's going to look like they're just doing an awful job. But somewhere along the line, we have to say that there's I mean, the county executive is in a historic building right now, the former Pine Hills Library, which was later the president of the college. The world knows what most historic buildings look like, and I think we've got to do something to protect them and put a priority. It doesn't mean that on occasion one or the other may have to be demolished for a much larger project or whatever, but what we have going out now, for the 15th of July, is a carte blanche attempt for any developer to say, here's a great idea, it's not fair to that developer, and it's not fair, and Pine Hills will not be Pine Hills if Madison Avenue, possibly Partridge Street, part of Western Avenue, is leveled. Yeah, that's what I heard recently, too.

And they want to partridge down western to demolish Lima.

But all those houses got to go in the meantime.

What should happen is, because I'm the one that suggested this to several people, and only the county executive came up with the authority, thanks to the legislature, is hollow out the middle of it, extend the backyards, have off-street parking, and see if we can get people to go in. We have a lot of different kinds of people here, but we do not have a lot of homeowners. And these are big enough that you could get people to go in and have rental property as well, all different kinds of rental property. Some of them are very large, some not so much.

Andy Ruby lived in Pine in Parkwood Street.

You can name an awful lot of other people. Keillors were there, et cetera. It's got a wonderful history, a human history, an architectural history, and we have to go on record at some point and also head this off also for potential developers because if the whole thing is handled and given carte blanche, you'll have lawsuits and all kinds of unnecessary friction which we don't need.

So do you have given that it's July 15? Yes, and It's a short it's the timing is unfortunate Good idea the RFP is out Not good timing. Yeah, but our RFPs Do receive addendum? Yes Do you think something and obviously we can't do a whole survey and just I mean, I can't do much of anything right now, but do you think that at least an addendum that identifies there may be historic properties contained, at least to warn, but also there may be historic properties located within the boundaries of this as well as present opportunities for

tax credits historic tax credits would that be a positive statement to see if we could get the well i think we have to go to the county executive to see see what we can do about that i mean i'm willing to make that visit uh i've already called historic albany foundation and uh so pam's she's what kind of with you on no no i got a call from from kara okay i did call pam as well left a message there I don't know what the answer is. I also know, and I'll check also with, and they're already aware of it on Peoples Island as well, I assure you. And we're gonna take a look at it and see what can be done, but it's gotta be added off in fairness to everybody, including the structures.

I agree in terms of the developer. I mean, it makes everybody look bad when something should have been figured out.

And these proposals cost a lot of money to put together, and then to be told, oh, we didn't tell you. Right.

Do you need any help with thinking through that?

Sure. I'd be very happy to, with anybody. I'm making calls now to several people and find out what can be done. What is the requirement of a local designation?

survey is that is it oh I don't know I just know I think the National Register there's a survey procedure so it is similar we would need to do research and background more or less not a whole like not a full National Register but the way in which we do them is that we pull know the historic background the development information um and as i'm finding this out now because we're going through a certification process for south lake they do need to be more developed kind of closer to if we were to you know certify them if it wasn't listed on the national register it does need to be more at a national register of light in terms of the the content and what is there and the documentation of the buildings and the mapping and all of that. So it is, it's not as heavy as a list for National Register, but it still does require a fair amount of documentation and research.

What law says that? Is it local law? Within the local. Is it state law or is it the City of Albany law? Within the local historic. Is it the City of Albany law?

period of declaration and of course that would give enormous power for the city of common council if they put anything on the local yeah i mean it's the same process that we were looking at when the tutors came through so it would come to us someone would have to put together the nomination it would come to the historic resource resource commission for recommendation and then it would have to go before the common council for action and official definition.

I think that has to be looked at. I know what you have to do for the National Register.

But that's not going to happen in the next six weeks. No, it's not. And so maybe to ask them to issue an addendum.

Several things have to happen. Yeah.

Mostly you've got to get a yes from somebody like the county executive.

You could also wind up with the media very concerned about it too. Oh yeah. That's usually the last stage. When you do everything that you can, then you go to the next. For some reason or other, Chris Churchill finds something and there's an article in it. Oh yeah. Or you'd rather not see it. And so you try and head that off. Try and let everybody say face with it. And the easiest thing to do is to put some language into the RFP. And yes, you can amend RFP. You can also do another thing with RFPs. You just change the date. Did we say July 15? We're really talking September 15. Now you've got more time. So I've got to find out what's the proper way to do it. But I think all of the above is the proper way to do it.

September 15th, I think you just threw that out. I just threw it out. You did. But who would do the survey at all? And how long would we need money to do that? And how long would it take to do it?

I mean, you all could volunteer to do it. It doesn't necessarily have to come from the staff. I mean, we would have to vote for the formal nomination. I mean, I think the fact that mobile designation does not require ownership consent, but I think in partnership between the county and the city of Albany, we would want to make sure that we had support by and from the county to do this at a local level. I do not believe that it would look good for any future partnerships and any future projects and investment in the current downtown. If we did this and the county was adamant not to it well there's another thing it's not really a county agency it is it is not but and state very often i still think we would need to tread very lightly i mean i we you know the city it could come from our department to do the research and the survey work and with your hrc's coordination but i think that there would need to be some discussions had before

So how much time would we need for all of that? Six months?

It would depend. I mean, we have the reclass and sub-all survey done. Yeah, that's right. So we have a large amount of research and documentation currently done, but it does need to be fleshed out, and that is something that came out of the report, that there needs to be more research done in terms of that and kind of looking contextually at St. Rose because, you know, there's a lot of history even outside of St. Rose within that area that you would need to look at, not just solely the campus itself, but other... Can we do informants?

I can't give you a... No, I understand. Because he made a face when I said six.

Which, I mean, in reality, like, It would be, for what we got from the consultant in terms of doing a national register and doing an intensive level survey, we were looking at up to two years of getting that through the additional steps that are needed to even nominate it as a national register district.

So you need a lot of buy-in to do it. You need all the work. But here's a question for you. We save an important corridor. We create opportunities using the state and the historic tax credits, and we also create opportunities for grants that require buildings to be, which, depending on the grant, listed or determined. Yeah.

Maybe one of the current conversations that needs to take place, you know, whether we're having a conversation do a local defamation, what are the next steps, or who would be able to take on hiring and having somebody come in to do the National Register nomination, if the conversation should be had with the State Historic Preservation Office of, in the meantime, can we do determinations about the ability on these properties, which then would open up the ability for somebody to go after public funding and the tax credit programs that, you know, as an intermediary of, you know, the RFP coming out and us having conversations with the Pine Hills authority and the county and whoever else needs to be at those tables of what are the next steps for the campus in this area.

So are you saying that one path is kind of what we just spoke of, and going through local designation, et cetera. Another path could be submission, basically, of the materials that we have, kind of packaged and assembled and maybe organized a little bit differently. And they are submitted to the State Preservation Office for a determination of eligibility, which is the lowest bar.

I believe determinations of eligibility. I was looking at these for some of the diocese buildings. I just decided I think they require owner consent.

Well, that's what I was going to say. Who would be requesting that? And, but if I may, any funds, any public funds, are going to require a determination of eligibility anyway. So this is a proactive means to clarify that so that any potential development does not get held up because, oh, you've got some HCR funds. Wait a minute, you've got eligible buildings. So it really is an attempt to head that off.

We need two or three days. the legislative delegation who created the authority that saved the block. Okay. And I'm sure that they'll be very interested in this. Great. Although right now, having spent a couple of hours in the capital today, they're not concentrating on too much. They're trying to get out of there.

Okay.

So, it's a little bit more approachable. Just a question, Erin and Chris. Who can not talk about this? How do we talk about this as individuals and not get anywhere near a public meeting concern?

So, I mean, step one would be you guys cannot be emailing each other as a group, texting each other as a group.

mean the whole commission like any any amount higher than uh so three of you if three of you would like to work together yes you can do that okay it's then not a quorum excellent and or if more of you wanted to be involved it would just any type of communication would all have to

happen at the meeting and we can put it on the agenda as a discussion item.

If you wanted to take your own personal piece and do your research and then when we reconvene monthly, you could then have a discussion of the work and the next steps that need to be taken. But no more than three of you could be actively discussing or working on it together.

Yeah, and then I'd also recommend based on just how that also work is monthly come prepared with what you have done, so it is clear and transparent, so we don't walk into the concern of a violation of a section of open meeting law. So if three of you do work on something, prepare a report similar to a site, the same way we do site visits that are just, you know, this is what we have been actively doing. We are disclosing it on the record so that everyone's aware of it.

If one of us had a question and wanted to contact you,

Staff can be involved with it. We have one, two, three, and?

It can be both of us. Three plus two.

Yeah, we don't count.

It can be that. You don't count. You don't count.

You count a lot. We don't count that. We don't count per quorum.

Okay, great. Three plus two is good. All right, so. Great.

It's kind of how we've done previous you know, work with commissioners where, you know, you've got demolition, you've got vacancy, it's always been...

I will make sure that you all are... Yeah, keep us on the straight and narrow. Well, yeah, and then I think, because it kind of, with some of what we were talking about earlier, if any of you are approached by the public as a commissioner, it needs to, that person, you guys just kind of need to shut that down and tell them to please contact staff so we can facilitate that contact.

And I would just, so we've had a couple of occasions recently where there's been former members, members of the public, that have been reaching out to each of you individually. Members from outside organizations, things like that. So we need to be very, very careful of just the legal, you know, legality of that and just making sure that there's no outside conversations or outside influences your decision making as a board or what can be seen as influencing your decision.

So I would just make sure that... You can have an opinion as an individual, but you can't speak for the board and you can't...

In the best practice going forward, just direct them to talk to staff, be like, I understand your concerns, but here's the contact info for chris or for aaron and you know i intend to i intend to speak to each of the elected officials and that at every level and that's not necessarily yeah and like but if i came with three people and four of us can't then we'd and then on top of that yeah so if you do direct someone to us please use the email that you guys get all my stuff from hrc

Albany NY so I can keep it in a folder. Along with that, it comes up of if the public wishes to have input, it's why we have these meetings, why we have public comments so they can officially state on record their opinion. That's how we protect ourselves from outside influence concerns if it's disclosed through the proper channel.

It seems to have quieted down.

We have had a couple emails in regards to some other upgrades outside of what was happening in Center Square. And so it seems that there may be some work that needs to be done between National Credit and homeowners in regards to that, but I think it's better.

Okay.

Do you have an adjournment?

Yeah, hold on, no one leave yet. We haven't done the adjournment.

Motion to adjourn.

Aye.

Second.

I can't, he can't say it. Seconded twice. Or once. All right. All those in favor. I thought I had done the, I thought I had done it.