City Council - Regular Meeting

It's true. If you ever need to be home, this is the daughters are the way to do it. For the learning that real soon, real quick. Yeah. And it's it's a challenge. They have this included. Definitely a challenge. We love Johnny. All the financial paybacks don't include anything.

All right. Okay. Well, good evening. It uh welcome to our regularly scheduled meeting here of Worcester City Council here in City Hall. Uh it is Monday, October 20th, 2025 and this meeting is livereamed on YouTube as well. It's after 7 p.m. and we're going to get started. Uh our next regular scheduled meeting will be November 3rd of 2025. Miss Hamilton, please call the role of council members. Mr. Abernathy here. Mr. Gaffy here. Mr. Jose here. Miss Kappic here. Mr. Malta here. Mr. Meyers here. Miss Warden.

Uh, Miss Warden had told us last meeting that she was not going to be here. We still have a quorum and the agenda will remain as presented. At this time, I'll ask you to stand and join the members of city council in reciting the pledge of allegiance. I pledge to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Yes. Okay. Do I have an approval of our minutes from our October 6th meeting? Motion to approve. Motion to approve. Is there a second?

Second. Second by Mr. Abernathy. All in favor signify by saying I. I. Any opposed? All right. Motion carries. Communications from the mayor. Good evening, Mayor. Good evening, Mr. President, councel. Um, just a number of items to cover. Uh I uh I know you had a uh record at least in recent year um for last council meeting is in terms of uh time. No no we were 10 minutes our record's 20 minutes. We were 30 minutes last time

I did my part towards that by not attending. So uh you know you're welcome. Um, but I'll I'll add a little bit on because uh some things happened that I want to report uh in the interim between the previous council meeting and last council meeting. Just a few. Uh the main street fundraiser went on uh as scheduled on the 17th and was a we had a great evening for that. I know a lot of you were there. Um that went well. Um Friday that week, a little more somber occasion. We had a celebration of life for Major Mary West. Um, I think that name probably re resonates with a lot of people in town. Um, again, I'm showing my age a little bit, but I did quite a bit of work with her 20 and 30 years ago when the Salvation Army Center was built um on uh South Market. Uh, and she kind of was the face of Salvation Army for a long time. Um, the following week, we had an open house uh at the home of Dr. McCall to meet the College of Worers's new president and board of trustees. Nice event there. Uh he's a very much a type A personality uh very ambitious and he's got a lot of big ideas whether or not you know the college can pull those off or not we're going to see but uh a lot of ideas um last week we had the uh briefings for business with WDC again I know some of the people here were in attendance uh the speaker did a critique of Ohio's regulation of the energy industry which was interesting That uh the next day uh the chamber of commerce had a member appreciation event at their offices that we had a contingent from the city at. Then later that evening uh we did breakfast and dinner. Uh we were over in Canton because Heritage Ohio which is kind of the umbrella organization for the main street organizations in Ohio had their annual meeting in Canton and Worcester was nominated for an award for our butterfly alley project. So, we were in

attendance for that to support the Main Street crew on that. Unfortunately, uh we did not come away with winners, but it was nice to be recognized. So, we were one of three nominees. Um following day, we had a meeting with Wayne Metro, Rodney Mitchell. Um they've got some changes that I don't think they're ready to roll out yet, but uh got some interesting ideas on how to move forward to better serve the uh Wayne County uh housing issues. And then that same day then the chamber did their uh annual Wayne economic forum and I know again many people were in attendance for that. Uh the 17th then we uh last Friday PPM does an annual uh hot dog cookout for lunch which uh I'm two for two this year as far as grabbing good days for that. But it's really an opportunity for them to uh get together. They have uh you know hot dogs, cake, and ice cream. So, uh, nice little festive affair. But what they're doing is they're girding up and getting ready to, uh, hit the leaves because that's going to start, I think, a week from yesterday.

So, believe that time of year is here. So, it's kind of a time to catch your breath and get ready for that. Uh, and then, uh, we had a ribbon cutting at Christmas Run Park for the new communications board that went in there. We've talked about that for several months and it just it's taken a while to actually get them in place and get them installed. That was a very nice ceremony. Uh looking ahead tomorrow, we have a manager meeting. That's the every other month meeting. Uh we also have uh a Wister Growth executive committee meeting. We've been kind of um in idling uh for really the last year or so. Not a lot of projects on Wisher Growth, but we have a couple things uh bubbling up to the surface and we need to discuss those. There's uh Wednesday there's a I'm sorry, Thursday there's a groundbreaking event at the Village Network and we're also doing a quarterly meeting with the WEDC. Friday we've got another we're doing a podcast uh at one of the local restaurants. We'll see how that turns out. Uh and then we'll also be attending the grand opening of Douglas Hall at the College of Worcester. Saturday morning is United Ways Heart and Ghoul event. Um if you've not participated or attended that, that's worth seeing. It's a nice event. And then Saturday night, the Worcester Bulls hockey team is having their home opener. This is up at the G Ice Arena. And uh I've been asked to drop the puck. I hope no more than that because that is the extent of my uh ice abilities. And then the week following on the 28th, there is a voting engagement event at the College of Worcester that we've been asked to participate in. Citizens Academy has been chugging along uh every week. Last week they did the safety center. I'm sorry. Two weeks ago, the safety services um center uh meeting last week, WISH Community Hospital. Um they were there for that. Tomorrow is the recreation up at uh Freedellander Chalet. And then the week after will be the graduation event. Um looking down a little further, three

things. First of all, you should have all received the email from me passing information about themer uh tours of the emergency room edition uh that are scheduled for December 4th. If you're interested, please uh respond to that. Next summer, two things uh popped up just in this past week. June 24th to June 26th, the Great Ohio Bicycle Adventure or GOBA is coming back through town. Um the route will be along the US 250 corridor as part of the Ohio 250 uh project. Um Worcester has hosted this event before in 1995 and 2004. So this is something we've done before and it's a it brings a lot of people to town. Again, it's just for a short time, but there are a lot of people participating. And then on July 11th, um I think we all know the name Charles Fus. You may have seen the release that he was recently inducted into the Ohio Sports Hall of Fame. And just last week, we got news that he was named a part of the class of 2026 for the National High School Football Hall of Fame. And there's tenally going to be a ceremony next year in Brook Park at the Brown's new facil, new site that we've been invited to be a part of. So, um, looking forward to that. It's not a secret that the Foss Foundation and the Foss family and the people behind that are really working to get him inducted in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and these are all small steps towards that. So, you know, we'll see how that plays out. Um Joel, do you have a couple updates I think you wanted to provide? Um, the only thing I wanted to touch touch base on is on the uh on the the operations update that I sent out on Friday. On the last page, I did mention some staffing updates which some of we had shared, but I just wanted to highlight those. Um, um, Amy's going to be transferring to down to our law department, work with Andrea, um, which we had announced

she'll still be clerk of council, so that that'll remain unchanged. Um, Ashley F, who's been uh an office manager down in our PPM division, is going to be moving up to take her spot with us. So, somebody that we've worked with for quite a few years. Um, she actually started out in the police department and then we stole her away from from Matt and now we're going to be stealing her from uh from Kurt down at PPM. Um, we uh the communication marketing manager we had mentioned quite a while ago. Um, after a lot of interviews, um, we've hired Landry Mloud. Some of you may know her. She's the I can't remember her title for the Orville Chamber, but she's second sort of the second command over the Orville Chamber of Commerce. Uh, joining us on November 3rd and doing some su succession planning, anticipating some retirements. Um, we promoted Greg Kolic and Mike Shant to captain. So, they'll be working side by side with captains Nadoma and uh, Lemon uh, for a while. Um, and then to fill both of those guys were sergeant. So, to fill them, we promoted Guy Bremanau, who's been in our uh, our detective bureau and Dan Simmons been promoted to sergeant to backfill that. And then so we'll be then, uh, advertising to backfill th those spots in the uh, in our force. So, uh, just wanted to point those out since there's some changes there.

Um, looking at the agenda, we've got 11 items new business. Only the second item, 2025-62, is budgeted. Everything else will require three readings or a suspension of the rules. Only the very first item is timesensitive in that it does need to be passed by November 14, which means we have two meetings to get that done. Um, the last thing I've got, uh, hopefully you've noticed the veterans banners have gone up downtown in recent weeks. Um, I think we've got 98 in all is the number I got. And if you're not not familiar with that, Main Street pretty much administers that program. Uh, our people do the labor as far as getting banners hung and changed out when the season right season comes. Uh from discussions we've had with Main Street, they've had nothing but positive responses to that. I hope you're hearing the same. Um this project's been in the works for quite some time, uh if not a full year, at least most of the year, and I'm extremely happy that we were able to get those up in time for Veterans Day. So with that, Mr. President, nothing further.

All right. Thank you. I'm assuming the the veterans banners are going to hang until the next seasonal transition. Veterans Day till so till right after Veterans Day.

Oh, okay. All right. And if you if you didn't see the release, I mean, there is a waiting list now. They filled up the first 98 spots if that's the right number pretty quickly. And there is kind of a waiting list and they'll cycle those through in future years. So, if you're interested, um, contact Main Street and they have a form to fill out. Um, yes, even though I was one at the table for the initial discussion, I did miss the initial filing from my father-in-law, so I am on the waiting list, uh, which is a sore subject in our household, but that's the way it goes.

All right. Well, thank you very much. Uh moving along here, we have uh no petitions, but we do have one individual that signed up to discuss the first item on our agenda tonight. Resolution 2025-61 uh regarding the ODOT uh Department Transportation Grant. Uh Alex, did you want to

Hello. I just have comment question. I think uh for comment wise, I think it's a it's a good idea um what this what this is trying to do. I'm someone who doesn't always have a car available to me, so I thought this was a good thing. I just have a quick question and maybe this will get covered at some point, but um when it comes to the grant and the funding for it, is um is that all going to be from like the grant the state itself or is the city have to provide any sort of matching money or anything like that? Well, question that.

Yes, please. So uh uh so for this item it's uh like some standardized language. There's a couple different grants in there. So but general 5311 rural transit if it's an operating cost it's 50/50. So 50% is federal funding and then 50% is non-federal funding. So our state house gives us um some additional grant dollars about 25 to 20% depending on the year. Um so that leaves us with you know 70 to 75 or 25% left. Um and then we can make up the that difference with contract revenue. Um the fairs help reduce that overall cost and um different partnerships. So it's not all strictly um local revenue but um there is like a percentage of local match and we use our CDBG funds and some different things to do that. Yeah.

Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. White. Uh, let's see. We had no committee reports. We had no public hearings. We have no unfinished business. So, we'll move right on to new business. Uh, first item, resolution 2025-61. Miss Hamilton, if you could please read it for us. Resolution number 2025-61, a resolution authorizing the filing of an application with the Ohio Department of Transportation by the city of Worcester for grants through the United States Department of Transportation, federal transit administration as authorized under federal transit laws and Ohio law, executing a contract with the Ohio Department of Transportation upon project approval, and allowing for immediate enactment.

All right, Mr. Myers, the floor is yours.

Uh, thank you, President. Um, I think this this is as we've done many of these before. This is a permission to basically apply for the grant funds. They're outlined in your packet. Um, I think Kevin actually just explained how it works. Um, but this is basically the process of applying for it. Um, we haven't been given this $1.1 million yet. Um, so in order to get the application processed and in on time, um, I am going to open it up for discussion because I would like to move it to third reading. So, um, I'd like to any questions you have, Mr. White, who's been in way way too many meetings with me lately as I'm sure as far as he's concerned, but, um, can answer the any questions you might have about the application.

I just have a real quick question. First of all, I want to say congratulations because WGO looks like it is just doing an amazing job and it's such an asset to the city of Worcester. How likely is it that we will get these funds? Uh I think it's very likely we will get at least a portion of these. Um the 1.128 that's kind of what I'm looking at applying for. Now the state's capped at um can't remember how many million 38 million for this allocation for this grant and there's always more people or there's always more ask than what's available. So we'll we'll get probably a little bit less. Um but I think we're we're doing very well as you said with um wrership and everything. I think we've got a very competitive system. So, I'm pretty pretty excited, pretty hopeful that we'll get um at least a good a good chunk of that.

And obviously, if we don't apply, we don't get any. So, it's a good idea to apply. And this is our second year applying for this. So, this is last year we applied and we just started service. Um this operates on the state fiscal year. So, July 1st to the end of June. So, great. Thank you. Anyone else? All right. If not, I'd like to make motion to move this to third and final reading so we can process the application. All right. Motion to suspend the rules and move along. Second by Mr. Abernathy. Miss Hamilton, please call the role on the suspension of the rules. Mr. Meyers, yes. Mr. Jose, yes. Mr. Abernathy, yes. Mr. Gaffy, yes. Mr. Malta, yes.

Miss Kafik, yes. Okay. Rules are suspended. Mr. Myers. Uh motion to pass resolution 2F25-61. Motion to adopt. Is there a second? Second. Second by everybody. Mr. Mr. Okay. All right. Miss Hamilton, please hold the role in the adoption. Mr. Meyers. Yes. Mr. Husse. Yes. Mr. Abernappy? Yes. Mr. Gaffy? Yes. Mr. Malta? Yes. Miss Kappic? Yes.

Okay. Very good. Uh, next item, resolution 2025-62. As the uh, mayor had mentioned, this is a budgeted item. Mr. Malta will uh, explain it to us. But first, Miss Hamilton will read it for us. Resolution number 2025-62, a resolution authorizing the director of administration to advertise according to law and enter into a contract with the lowest and best bidder for the redesign, replacement, and installation of a new heating, ventilation, and air conditioning HVAC system for portions of the water treatment plant and allowing for immediate enactment. Mr. Malt, the floor is yours.

Thank you. So, Mr. Fritz is here with us tonight to get dive deep into this if if needed for any reason. But uh pretty simple. We're going to replace the HVAC. Been there 29 years. We've had some issues in the past. Maybe unders sized or just not operating efficiently and correctly. So the engineering department has redesigned this. And there's any additional questions. 29 years feels like a pretty good long time.

That's a good long time. Yeah. It's it's survived very well. I'd say it's very well maintained, but you know, 30 years in, it's really just the the boiler for the lower level and the dehumidifiers for upper and lower levels. And that's, you know, it's expensive, but again, it's a it's a really large system, so I'd say you got more than your useful life out of it. Yeah. 30 years is pretty good. Yeah. With that said, it's it's budgeted. So, let's uh have a vote. Motion to adopt. Motion to adopt. Is there a second? Second. Second by Miss Kappic.

Miss Hamilton, please call the role on the adoption. Mr. Malta? Yes. Mr. Meyers? Yes. Mr. Abernathy? Yes. Mr. Gaffy? Yes. Mr. Jose? Yes. Miss Kappic? Yes. All right. Motion is approved. Next item, resolution 2025-63. This will be a three- reading item, also by Mr. Malta, but Miss Hamilton, if you please read it for us. Resolution number 2025-63, a resolution authorizing the director of administration to exercise the city's option to renew its contract with Berki Excavating, Inc. for lime and bioolids residual management and allowing for immediate enactment.

Uh, Mr. Malt, the floor is yours. Thank you, Mr. President. So this is for our bioolids sludge removal. Berky excavating's been doing it for the last two years. I believe they've had a contract in the past. Local excavating company they have extended. So this would be the third year. They've extended the offer to maintain the same money for this third and final year before it has to go out to open bid. So it's just exercising the third year of the 2024 contract for both line sludge and bioolids to be hauled by um they've done it for the last two years. The price is going to carry forward from 2024. Um we're not doing any price increase there. So um the way the contract was was bid there's There's three years total if both parties mutually agree and we have we've already asked them uh they are willing to go forward for another year and so we're going to get this taken care of now and then when the first of the year rolls around able to sign immediately so gap coverage

okay so this is for 2026 correct and I'm assuming this is going to be in the 2026 budget it but we need to extend it now because we need to move forward on this. Okay. I think our contract requires us to give ahead of time so that they know whe

we have to rebid it. Reid like right now I remember we did this was like the first time we'd done two-year or multi-year agreements for these things. It was kind of like wow that was a no-brainer. We should have always done this. And yeah, so we fixed we lock in our cost and I think the other one that we did was also a two-year. I don't know where we are in that process, but yeah, getting the same same service at the same price. Otherwise, I'm sure if we bid it again this right now, it' probably come back more, but makes sense. Makes sense. Is that what what you're sensing out there is that inflation's pushing it up right now?

When we did it the last time, um was was the low bidder and pretty decent margin. Um I'm sure if we go out did it again the competition has kind of shrunk. Um Synro has kind of bought up some of the smaller so less competition you're looking at higher prices. Okay.

We were I think we were lucky. We got three bids last time on solids four bids on on the live sledge and I don't know that we could do that again if we were bidding it now. Okay. Okay. If there aren't any other questions, I will move to go to third and final reading on this. Motion to suspend the rules. Is there a second? Second. Second by Mr. Abernathy. Miss Hamilton, please call the role on the suspension of the rules. Mr. Malta? Yes. Miss Kappic? Yes. Mr. Gaffy? Yes. Mr. Meyers? Yes, Mr. Abernathy. Yes, Mr. Jose. Yes.

Okay, Mr. Malta, I assume you motion to adopt. I do motion to adopt. Sorry. All right. Is there a second? Second. Second by Miss Kappic. Miss Hamilton, please call the role on the adoption. Mr. Malta? Yes. Miss Kappic? Yes. Mr. Gaffy? Yes. Mr. Meyers? Yes. Mr. Abernathy? Yes. Mr. Jose? Yes. Okay. Very good. Our next item, uh, resolution 2025-64 will also be Mr. Malta. Miss Hamilton, if you'll please, uh, read it for us.

Resolution number 2025-64, a resolution authorizing the director of administration to advertise according to law and enter into a contract or contracts with the lowest and best biders for the purchase of certain chemicals for the water treatment plant and allowing for immediate enactment. Mr. multifloor is yours.

So, I can get into the nitty-gritty on these chemicals and I know Mr. Fritz can as well. We talked about it quite a bit today. Um, you know, we've done this year after year. We've got to have them to treat our water. We'd like to get out the bid as soon as we can so that we get contracts ready for end of the year so we don't have any gaps in the in the coverage for purchasing chemicals. We've got 30 days supply. We don't we don't run short of anything obviously. So we budgeted last year's budget was 700,000 in total for the chemicals. Um, it looks like this year's spending is going to finish up close to 750. So, we put 800,000 in the budget trying to stay ahead of the inflation. And the sooner we get off the bid, the sooner we'll know, you know, what we're in for. So, it's just it's the same same as last year. We just kind of repeat. So,

will we be looking for a multi-year agreement on this? We haven't done that and it's difficult. It has been difficult the last three or four years because inflation's been so crazy that nobody's going to commit. We couldn't get them to commit to one year. I mean there were times when they wanted to go monthto month because they couldn't predict what their costs were going to be. Okay.

So I think for the most part the manufacturer um for bleach and some other things is is somewhat local. It's in Ohio. Um the the line is within a couple of states around Ohio, Kentucky, and Pennsylvania. Um so I'm hoping that that there's not going to be any influence of tariffs or anything like that on on the bidding for this stuff because everybody's really up in the air on that, too. So, but again, the sooner we get out to bid, the sooner we'll we'll know, you know, there's

Okay. And I assume this is the same kind of thing where we're bidding it before the budget and then we'll budget based upon the bid. We Yeah, we kind of simultaneously put the budget together and giving out the bid hopefully that Yeah, I'm guessing right close. Okay, any other questions? Yeah, I don't know how you store these chemicals, Mr. But you mentioned the tariffs and the just the fluctuating costs of these chemicals. Um are are they packaged in a way that we could store maybe more on hand ourselves or do you have to kind of go 30 days at a time?

So the line is the big thing and the line is what rules the whole thing because it's the most expensive thing of the fee. Um and we've got two slakers, two silos. Um, and we can we can keep it full, but you're more or less 30 days in each and you get out to 60 days, but really that's, you know, you can't you can't store any more than that on site. It's bleach doesn't age well. You know, most of the things that that you're buying in B don't don't age very well past 30 days. So, it's it's difficult to like Well, there goes that.

Great idea. Light up and stick it in the warehouse. Uh, if there aren't any other questions and I'll let these guys move quickly on this and get get it out to bid. I will motion to suspend the rules. Motion to suspend the rules by Mr. Malta. Second. Second by Mr. Meyers. Miss Hamilton, please call the role on the suspension of the rules or on the Yes. Mr. Malta. Yes. Mr. Gaffy? Yes. Miss Kappic? Yes. Mr. Myers? Yes. Mr. Abernathy? Yes. Mr. Jose? Yes. All right. I will move to adopt. Motion to adopt. Is there a second? Second. Second by Miss Kappic. Miss Hamilton, please call the role on the adoption. Mr. Malta?

Yes. Mr. Gaffy? Yes. Miss Kappic? Yes. Mr. Meyers? Yes. Mr. Abernathy. Yes. Mr. Jose. Yes. Okay. The rest of the meeting will be the Mr. Abernathy show. Thank you. Can we vote on that? Well, one one of the things I mean just better you than me.

Per our earlier conversation, you still want to roll it that way. We'll run through them and then have a greater discussion at the end because Okay. It' be basically what we've got is we've got seven pieces that at this point while they're different, they're primarily there there's a lot of similar points and a lot of base items that are similar or the same. And so to save to make this simple, um basically what we'll do with these next ones is we'll we'll introduce them. We'll have a brief discussion, but then we'll just leave the heavy discussion for the end because at this point it's like I say, it's all I think overall any major discussion points are all going to center around the same p parts and pieces of each each piece of legislation. So, but before we do anything more, Miss Hamilton, please read the first one for us.

Read them all, don't I? Ordinance number 2025-16, an ordinance declaring the improvement to certain parcels within a city and area here in reference as 2025 tiff market S 310 to be a public purpose and exempt from taxation pursuant to OC 5709.40B providing for the collection and deposit of service payments and specifying the purposes for which those service payments may be expended and allowing for immediate enactment. Mr. Aernathy, the floor is yours.

All right. For this one, I believe it's going to be Apple Creek Bank downtown if I'm correct. So, uh, again, based on what we just discussed, we'll save the greater conver convers conversation unless anybody wants to have any specific conversation around Apple Creek Bank. We'll go ahead and leave this on the first reading. The only question I had, which is more the specific of the location, is so they've got all five of those parcels done. That's on here. Correct. Uh Apple Creek Bank has this today. What's that? Uh presently this is owned by Apple Creek Banking Company. Right. But they have all five parcels.

Correct. Okay. Although that that would be irrelevant to the procedure that that we're looking at. Why would it be irrelevant?

Right. So these properties may and and we can talk about this a little bit more in detail, but these properties may transfer in the future. They they may be under development uh today or next year. They can uh switch owners. What we're talking about is a tool to generate um funding to support infrastructure that benefits the community regardless of the ownership of that structure. Okay. Um, am I missing? I'm looking at Well, at this point it's it's never mind. Um, okay. Well, if there's no, I guess we'll we'll say this has had its first reading and we'll we'll save the discussion for later for later on then.

Yep. All right. Very good. Miss Hamilton, please read the uh next ordinance, please. Ordinance number 2025-17, an ordinance declaring the improvement to certain parcels within the city, an area here in reference as 2025 TIFF, Cleveland 4782, to be a public purpose and exempt from taxation pursuant to OC 5709.40B, providing for the collection and deposit of service payments and specifying the purposes for which those service payments may be expended and allowing for immediate enactment.

Mr. Abernathy, the floor is yours. All right, this one is for the Bell stores. So, if we want to go ahead and take a little closer look at that one, you can see that parcel there right on the corner of Cleveland Road in Smithville Western. I believe we've visited that before in some past legislation. Um, but again, for the tiff purposes that is for Bell stores. Okay. Any further conversation around that parcel? All right, we'll leave that on first reading. All right, very good.

That's it. First reading. We'll move on to the next ordinance, 2025-18. Miss Hamilton, if you please read it for us. Ordinance number 2025-18. An ordinance declaring the improvement to certain parcels within the city, an area here in reference as 2025 TIFF, Cleveland 2695, to be a public purpose and exempt from taxation pursuant to OC 5709.40B. 40B providing for the collection and deposit of service payments and specifying the purposes for which those service payments may be expended and allowing for immediate enactment. Okay, Mr. Adnan, the floor is yours.

All right, that one looks like it's the car wash and laundry single parcel here on Cleveland Road. So, is there any discussion around this particular parcel? I'd just like to note that I I will eventually have discussion on all these Yeah. question issues. Yeah. My my only specific question related to this is I noticed the first two parcels and there hasn't been no work that's proceeded on those parcels whereas this one it's 50% complete that has no effect.

Correct. So, uh, if we remember back this time last year when we were taking a look at Spring Run, I'm sorry, um, uh, the Clear Creek subdivision, when we're talking about utilization of TIFF, uh, TIF is looking at the government's burden of providing infrastructure that's going to provide a community benefit and also benefit uh, incidentally this area as well. Uh, this particular parcel. Uh so with additional traffic, we'll be taking a look at a need to have uh to accommodate additional infrastructure downstream. And so therefore uh what the state of Ohio does is it has uh the ability for communities to establish ATIF. Um and you set a base year for for when that is um valued. So by passing legislation on any of these projects, what we're doing is we're capturing its evaluation in 2025 before it's valued with the new construction.

Okay. Well, thank I think I know what you were asking. Um and Johnson answered it in a roundabout way and what Craig said. So, for instance, we couldn't do a TIFF on the We can do a TIFF on the properties that's going to be have a Bell store on it eventually. Nothing's happened there yet.

We can't do a TIFF on the Dairy Queen because it's been too long ago that it's been built. So, there's a time frame within which even after something started being built, the state law lets us still go back and capture some of those increase based on the year that it's valued. So there's a short time frame even after they've started the build that you can go back and capture those because the auditor hasn't gone and actually done the new value yet on that. But there's a cut off. You can't do that. So I think that's what was being being asked why some of them we could do a tiff even though they've started construction. Um as long as we do it before that valuation gets set by by the county. Well, for to be specific, I was asking because of the situation we've had in the past with any type of CRA where at that point if any work proceeds prior to the request and and and awarding of the CRA at that point, then it's basically a a moot point.

So, so I was sure if that was a similar situation with this or not. No, because tiffs are completely different than a CRA. That sounds like a conversation for at the end, right? And that's why I just But I got you. All right. So, that one's had its first reading. Miss Hamilton, Ordinance 2025-9, please.

Ordinance number 2025-9. An ordinance declaring the improvement to certain parcels within the city, an area here in reference as 2025 TIFF, Cleveland 2775 to be a public purpose and exempt from taxation pursuant to OC 5709.40B, 40B providing for the collection and deposit for service payments and specifying the purposes for which those service payments may be expended and allowing for immediate enactment. Mr. Abbery, the floor is yours. All right. These are for some apartments and I have these apartments been are they under construction yet? Yeah, they are under construction done. They're done. Almost almost done. So, similar situation to the last one. Correct. I think they're structured.

Okay. Any additional questions, comments, or we want to save them? Save them. Save them. Save. Okay. Leave it on first reading, please. Okay. Thank you. Next one. Next item. Ordinance 2025-20. Miss Hamilton, please read it for us. Ordinance number 2025-20. An ordinance declaring the improvement to certain parcels within the city, an area here in reference as 2025 TIFF Burbank 4900, to be a public purpose and exempt from taxation pursuant to OC 5709.40B, providing for the collection and deposit of service payments and specifying the purposes for which those service payments may be expended and allowing for immediate enactment. Mr. Abernathy, the floor is yours.

All right, this is looking like Texas Roadhouse. So, uh, obviously doesn't look like anything started there. So, um, anybody want to talk about Texas Roadhouse? My my only question and again I don't want to I don't want to dig too deep into this but I am curious on on this one this one and another one with specifics of if the intent of this is to provide some type of improvement to public property and this thing is basically for all intents and purposes surrounded by private property. I have I I'm confused. I don't understand. But again, I'll ask the question. I won't expect an answer. We can move on to the other ones because I'm sure there's going to be I know there's going to be at least one other one that will have the same question.

All right, we'll leave that on the first reading. First reading. We'll move on to 2025-21. Miss Hamilton. Ordinance number 2025-21. An ordinance declaring the improvement to certain parcels within the city, an area here in reference as 2025 TIFF Burbank 4855 to be a public purpose and exempt from taxation pursuant to OC 5709.40B providing for the collection and deposit of service payments and specifying the purposes for which those service payments may be expended and allowing for immediate enactment.

Mr. Abernathy, the floor is yours. This one will be for a sergeant car wash. So, uh, again, I'll open it up if there's any particular conversation around the specific business this might be going to. All right, we'll go ahead and leave that on its first reading.

Okay. And then our last item, 2025-22. Miss Hamilton, if you'll please read it for us. Ordinance number 2025-22, an ordinance declaring the improvement to certain parcels within the city, an area here in reference as 2025 TIF Burbank 4147, to be a public purpose and exempt from taxation pursuant to OC 5709.40B, providing for the collection and deposit of service payments and specifying the purposes for which those service payments may be expended and allowing for immediate enactment. Okay. So I guess at this point we'll dig into the meat and potatoes of most of what we want to discuss. Eh. Yes.

Okay. So this one specifically is for what I think most a lot of people listen waiting for Chick-fil-A. But rather than dig specifically into Chick-fil-A here, I'm going to go ahead and open it up to council to uh go ahead and ask questions about any of the seven that have been presented. So, uh, Miss Kappic, you can lead us off.

Thank you very much. First of all, I did some research, and I will admit that I have not done extensive research, and I still will do some more about TIFFs, and I'm not sure how any of these fit into the standard definition of a TIFF. I've got some issues concerning that. I don't see where any of these are blighted areas. I don't see where any of these need um specifically development. There's already development there. there's already infrastructure there. And on my further research, it really appears kind of as if we are giving these companies um tax abatements under the color of being tiffs and I'm concerned because these are private companies. These are areas where we already have infrastructure. The tiffs made great sense to me when we were looking at housing. These do not make sense to me. My concern is also the fact that it will end up in greater taxes on surrounding businesses. Same surrounding businesses do not get the same tax breaks um as as companies would under this tiff and um I'm not sure this is the appropriate use for a tiff.

Mr. Sanders. Yes. Could uh could I respond to that and also maybe to your earlier comment? Sure. Um I think one of the items of confusion is difference between a CRA and a tiff. CRA actually results in a reduction of taxes to the property owner. Um and we've used that as to incentivize development in different areas um or different times. It is a tax incentive for the developer in turn passed on to the homeowner or property owner as the case may be. The tiff is not a reduction of taxes. All the taxes, pardon me.

It's a it's a static of taxes. Their taxes don't get increased. They kept it. That's what the statute says.

Um it's a redirection of tax. it it redirects that tax those tax dollars um that would otherwise go to different sources and allows it to be used for infrastructure um improvements. For example, in Spring Run is the one maybe we're most familiar with. The property owners in Spring Run are not going to see any difference in their tax bill than they would have on the paying side than they would have if there had not been a tiff. where those tax dollars go once it hits the treasur's office, that's what's changed. So again, no change from the taxpayer standpoint, but how those tax dollars are used is different from a tiff and a CRA. And that kind of goes back to Mr. Sanders question and he I think he was talking about the buck fork question which is what we've always used when I say always generally used in the city of Worcester as a standard for using tax abatements is it or tax incentives is it but for this tax incentive would this project go forward if the answer was yes if it was going to go forward anyways we generally thought well you don't need that tax payment then this doesn't impact the developer themselves. It allows us as the city of Worcester to take some of the additional tax revenue generated from the project and use that to pay for infrastructure repairs generally, not necessarily directly related to that project, but allows us to take some of that additional funds generated from the improvement and use it for infrastructure improvements. So,

but it's my understanding that the company that comes in their taxes remain static. Yeah. While All right, Jonathan, explain this. So, if I can offer a quick introduction, there are 2,715 of these throughout the state of Ohio. Well, I understand that. I did some research. Yeah. And and so like Finley, uh, one of the companies or cities that we're constantly competing with, uh, they they employ this, uh, as a strategy along with with Norton. Um we we see them also in our larger metros but um green twinsburg which is smaller than us. How is this going to affect Worcester?

So how this affects Worcester is we just wrapped up a comprehensive plan and we identified some amazing infrastructure that our residents suggested would be very helpful for our community's quality of life and also furthering our economic development, unlocking additional areas to encourage further development down the road. So, the state of Ohio provides this type of tiff that we're talking about, a parcel tiff, for the purposes of allowing cities and townships to be able to support and encourage new development so that we can generate additional revenues for our local schools and local government long term. And we do this by uh taking a project, and this is a great one up ahead of us. Uh this is uh a Chick-fil-A project uh that is going to generate additional traffic along Burbank Road. We have about 13,000 vehicles today on Burbank Road. Uh at peak hour, you'll have over a 100red cars a day going in ju just at the peak hour at this restaurant. Just

what are the tax implications? So the tax implications are and we share this in our uh report but like specifically for this uh Chick-fil-A restaurant if we uh were to not do anything uh what is going to happen is we would anticipate this property owner will see uh an increase in their tax bill of approximately uh 16 I apologize here of of approximately uh 23,00 000 a year. So they will pay $23,000 for the right to exist there. If we create a tiff on this property, they will pay $23,000 a year to exist there. And how that works is we are using a portion of those revenues for the first 10 years to support an extension on Riffle Road. So, as we have additional traffic, that 100 plus cars an hour a day uh at that um juncture, by making that connection along Riffle Road to Cleveland Road that our comprehensive plan calls out, we can benefit that area and we provide our residents with higher value with their infrastructure. This will allow us to be able to do a project like the Riffle Road extension that we've talked about much sooner. we'll be able to validate that if we're applying for grants that we have some additional funding to help support that and in turn that opens up that area for further development and we can show our schools an instant increase in new revenues. So they'll experience new revenues right away. Um

so you're telling me that the property will in fact generate new taxes. They will be assessed new taxes. What's the benefit for the Chick-fil-A? None. Well, the the the agree to increase taxes.

We were always told that developers had to pay for the infrastructure. So Meyer was going to go into Miltown Road. We were told over and over again the developer has to pay for infrastructure, the developer pays for infrastructure. Now you're saying no, the city's going to pay for it, and you can pay us back through the tax. So here, John, if real quick. So for instance, before before uh when Chick-fil-A was coming, they had to do a traffic study and they had to show whether we needed improvements at any of the intersections or the roadway there. If it would Yeah. And if it would have been required, they would have to pay for that regardless of whether we do a tiff or not. They would be required just like when the Meyers Menards that that whole development which they they submitted initially plans with traffic that assumed a Myers and Menards, a restaurant and something else like a car wash. All of that fully developed and that showed they needed an intersection. They and they needed either a signalized intersection or a roundabout up there. So they paid 100% to have that put in. You know, the city didn't put any of that money in for that inter intersection that was required. So if let's say we were to do a tiff on the um the uh the restaurant up there, that money is going to go towards other improvements because they already paid to have that improvement. So this is additional money going for other improvements. So we do this with all new businesses.

I'm sorry. Do we do this with all new businesses? And if we don't, who was the who decided that these were the ones that were appropriate?

So, we went back and looked at ones that we that if you look at the numbers that that Andre put together, ones that would generate enough money and increased taxes, property taxes that we could capture enough to make it worthwhile. In this case, if you add all these up over 10 years, it's $1.2 million. We make a dent in some of the infrastructure we're doing. And if you look at those maps, Jonathan's got with engineering and point out, well, there's multiple different intersections and things that we would be paying. We don't do the tiff. We're just going to pay for that out of our general fund at some point in the future. Um, they're not directly related necessarily to that development, but they would all they would all benefit from that. So, any improvements, we do some maintenance. We do a ripple road extension, we do some maintenance or things on Burbank Road, that whole development and anybody that uses that development is going to benefit from that. But we're going to use the money we're capturing from those increased taxes to help basically supplement infrastructure funds for the city. And like a lot of people have been doing this for a lot, you know, for 15 years or so. We haven't used it as much.

Um there's probably a couple we could have, you know, had we had we looked at it in days past, but we didn't. Um so this was you know what, this is being used more and more. We just completed a comp plan that shows focus areas, you know, like we probably should, we know we're going to focus on this area of town or this area, the downtown. So, Apple Creek is going to go in regardless of what we do. The infrastructure, the uh the uh streetscape is not something necessarily required, you know, and and those kinds of things for them to do down there. Um, we would still when we do that, we would still assess it just like we've done all the other ones. So people would pay their fair share. But there's additional money there we could use to help extend some things over into the arts district where the comp plan says let's let's run some connections over to the arts district, some streetscape and and improvements there. We can capture money from from this development that's already going to happen and use it next time we come in a year or two for infrastructure for streetscape over to the arts district. We've got another revenue source.

So why would we need a tiff for that? Why wouldn't we do that for every every improvement?

Well, as far as that goes, we've we've had some changes in our development patterns, but yes, uh that that's a fair question and that's some that's part of the reason why we're presenting this now is we watch our peer communities do this when we do have something like a gas station develop, uh that's going to generate anywhere between 30 to $50,000 of new revenue per year. So if we can deliver impactful infrastructure that's gone through a process similar to our comprehensive plan that provides a really good opportunity then to get a shot in the arm that we need to raise additional funds through grants and to be able to do that project faster so we can deliver that quicker. Building up our tax base and the stronger we make our tax base eventually we lower the tax burden on the individual homeowner. So that's the other end that we're taking a look at this and that's also why you don't see a reduction why but why why you know regardless of who operates that restaurant for example say it's Chick-fil-A today it's somebody else later um there's still a benefit to having a riffle road extension because I can get my traffic through faster on on a route especially during congested times but legally there's not a way that we can ever assess the the cost of that to have a meaningful impact to be able to affect that project faster. So this allows this is basically a new way of utilizing some programming that we've used before looking at what our peers are doing saying well we have a portfolio of programs uh we have a portfolio of projects uh we we can have a portfolio of tiffs that generate revenues that allow us to move forward with some of these other impactful projects. Another thing that we're taking a look at is an erosion of some

of our other grant sources. So, when we take a look at this, um, this portfolio of seven projects, we would estimate would generate roughly about $150,000 a year. That almost replaces our community development block grant program, which we're looking at as being eroded in the future. We've relied on that quite a bit for funding our projects. We don't know what the future of that is. We don't know what the future of anything.

Correct. So the question is we'd like to be able to continue making impactful improvements that benefit quality of life but also spur new development. Will this work? Now, in certain cases, like with Spring Run or Clear Creek, uh we had development agreements with the developer and that is not required under the parcel tiff unless we were to determine as as council or um you know, as you're working through things. If if a specific item of infrastructure would be an incentive that we would otherwise assess, we might at that point require a development agreement committing property owners to certain levels of job performance. Um that is uh when but you get into that whole basic sector non-basic sector debate that um comes up in economic development.

Jonathan, sir, let me ask a question. Let me let me let me flip over here a little bit. I think we we kind of get the tenants there. Let me Mr. Sanders, before I flip the subject over to something different, did you have a question that you wanted to jump in on this in regards? Well, yeah, just just quickly rough road extension. What are we talking about? 6 8 10 million 3 million half that three. Three. Yeah. Okay. So, we're talking about with what we're going to do and let's just say that we're going to use that project as the key as the keynote project since it's been brought up.

We're going to pay for half of that project after 10 years. But in 10 years, we're going to see probably a 20 or 30% increase in that. So, it's probably going to be closer to 3 and a half 3 and 3/4 million to do to for that project at that time. Correct. As we work today, depends if there's development that happens. If somebody comes in, you know, we'll practice concurrency, which we've done in the past, which is um also, you know, developer pay report with what we've got in these seven items. We're basically capping ourselves at $ 1.5 million over the course of 10 years. Correct.

Just for this year. So just like we would apply for a grant, very typically when we're looking at road grants, we are at that 150k area when we're able to pull in some additional chunks of outside funds to be able to affect that. So this is comparable, but that's 150 for the next 10 years. If we can come in with additional funding, additional projects next year and then the year after eventually that 150 gets matched with another 150. Okay. So, this isn't this isn't the end. No, this is a this this is only the be. We're only we're only touching we're only we're at the we're at the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we're looking at here with these seven items.

We're we're talking about a new programming of how we utilize tiff using it strategically and building a portfolio.

I don't I'm not suggesting that this is willy-nilly or or some other thing other than that. I mean, I'm sure that the amount of time that you spent on this is probably almost ridiculous and and and to that point, that's a good thing. But I mean, I'm just I mean, I'm just trying to I'm not trying to degrade the work that anybody's done here. I'm just trying to put this in the the most simplistic terms that that an idiot like me can understand from the standpoint that okay, we've got seven items today that at this point over the next 10 years are going to yield 1.5 million additional to what what they're going to what they would do without the tiff.

So then you're at this point now the cat's out of the bag. Now, we're going to add different ones over the next months into perpetuity to to continually to increase our our funding model because we have a feeling that between state and feds we're going to lose money over over the next again into perpetuity we're going to lose money. Okay.

Correct. And eventually they'll they'll there'll be a limit to like how much you would have in that portfolio because as we're talking about 10 years, if we're delivering seven projects this year, five the next, um after a while, you you cap out at perhaps maybe about 30 different projects at any given time. New ones come on. What is the cap then? Uh it well uh I I would anticipate that you'd probably be taking a look at uh a portfolio of maybe around um 40 to 50 different projects uh by the time we would get to year 10. What what would drive the difference between 40 and 50? The total dollar amount.

Uh just just our level of development. Not every project will be a a good candidate for us to utilize with with TIFF because of depending upon how um revenues work. There's there's revenue sharing component here. So in the case of like a Chick-fil-A, one of the things that we would do uh be required by law is we remit a portion of income taxes that we receive from employees who've not previously worked in the city for the previous two years. Um and and so on very large projects uh a lot of times that can equate uh roughly the value of the pilots that we would generate. So in that case we might recommend hey maybe we save the paperwork and skip this one because it's not going to produce a a really good return uh for this type of a project. Whereas you look at something like uh all of these it the math works out really well. Um something like a gas station in particular works out very well. Uh just again because it's a small um payroll but large investment. And so and also fairly um a generator of traffic flow that is going to benefit from having increased accessibility because of these projects we talk about in our comprehensive plan. So this is the strategy moving forward then.

So this is free money that nobody loses is what you guys are saying. But my understanding is I think that the schools Yeah. don't get there. I mean so like you say let's just say the apartments that are going to go in that are almost done and now you want to do a tiff. So the apartments that are almost done would pay the amount of taxes that you said they're going to have to pay for property taxes. Correct. If we don't do a TIFF, a portion of that property tax goes to the schools, portion of the counties, and what we're going to do is come in and steal that money from them for those apartments in order to pay for infrastructure that we want to do. And they're going to delay getting their income tax their excuse me, their property taxes until we get our money back for these pet projects that we want to do for improvement.

And they can't get a levy passed. It's not even close, right? So basically, we're going to pull the rug out from under them on those apartments. So none of this is done without the school being part of our conversation. So all of this schools have been part of this process before that was ever before. Just want to make sure everybody's clear that it's not like free money. It's being taken away from other right people who would normally get it. Generally speaking, what I hear from the schools when we get the response from the schools is we don't have a position on this. And I think it would be difficult for the superintendent and the board to say, "We don't have a position on this, but we're willing to give up this money when we can't when we need all these things and we can't pay us a levy."

I certainly don't doubt that they're part of the conversation. I I I believe that. What I'm getting is that there's some cringing when they see this. Whether they come out and say it publicly, I don't know. That's up to them. What I can say privately is there's cringing. what what the schools have typically because if you remember you guys have been around for a long time we were doing 100% CRAAS downtown to try to you know get reinvestment going downtown and in that case the schools were absolutely giving up money you know when we were directing 100% and they were paying less taxes so this is not that um usually were they paying less property tax I'm sorry what

with it with the CRA they were paying less property tax yeah 100% and So, but we were good partners. They were good partners. It was like we understand long term. Now, I will say they were paying they were paying they were getting less property tax during the period of that CRA. Now, most most of those have run out. All those buildings are generating exponentially more property tax than they were before that.

Very few businesses downtown have kids in the schools. I mean, apartment buildings and and other developments, the schools are going to have to pay going to have to take care of those with increased costs. What the schools are enjoying now is 10 times 20 times the amount of income tax or sorry the amount of property tax that now because it's postabatement for all those downtown developments than they were before or if those hadn't happened. So because you just think just pick out a building downtown that was run down you know the uh the where the fleet fee was you know literally pigeons living in it um generating nothing you know as far as property tax.

But that's not the circumstance we have here. But I'm getting but I'm getting there. My point is even when we were doing that they had they've always looked longterm and saw we're going to make more money in the long run than we were otherwise. So they were they were um strategic enough to to recognize that back 20 30 years ago when we started the CRAAS downtown and even if you look at these you know they're getting on the one property 14,000 postabatement they're going to get 25 26,000 but if it was going to happen anyway they'd get 26,000 right away and we're just trying to delay it and

I would go even a little softer to saying that maybe the circumstance recently has just changed because again they've they've tried two levies recently and and they've they've failed and they're still trying to figure out creative ways to get the new building built. And so if we come in with this tiff on seven zones and we're going to peel that money away that that could restrict the ability for them to get where they need to go. So this I'm not saying that they don't think long term. I'm just saying that it could restrict their ability to get to that new building. That's all I'm saying. And and so and and it's going to be and and I still put the burden back onto the school board and and to the superintendent. They they need to vo put their voice on this. And it can't be a we have no comment because if they have no comment, then I think it's imperative to us say, "Okay, what's best for the city?" And then we vote for what's best for the city. So the school board has to do their part and and actually voice an opinion.

So we do ask for comment. Um, I I will say that in our conversations, um, out of that 2,700 tiffs that are out there, over 2,000 of them are 100% tiffs. And, um, as far as their their terms, nearly 2,000 of them run 30 years. So, we might ask the question, well, well, why don't we do a a 30-year 100% tiff? And that's part of what we're taking a look at in terms of

Well, the school would have to approve it at that point. Well, they would have to approve it. But the question that we have to ask ourselves is that our taxpayers and the school district's taxpayers are one and the same. So what I gather from our conversations is that we from a city perspective certainly can and need to appreciate that our schools are incredibly important for our economic development. It's the number one reason why any family is going to decide whether to be in city limits or out is the quality of our schools. Um that I can say unequivocally and that's gospel truth. But at the same time, same token, our school district has shown us that they understand and appreciate that their taxpayers also enjoy and benefit high value quality infrastructure. So it really comes down to a philosophical question. We have now completed a comprehensive plan. We have some really incredible infrastructure projects. If by doing this we can deliver those projects faster, does that benefit the tax base quicker than us doing nothing? But the school has also done a comprehensive plan and we are going to peel away funds from them to complete their comprehensive plan. But again, I'm not going to argue that with you. I I'm just going to reiterate my point

that they're going to need to fight for that because again, if they're unwilling to fight for it, then I'll sit here and say we're going to do what's best for the city and your point will likely win. So, I'm imploring if if anybody from school board is watching, if you care about this issue, you need to fight for it. If not, we're going to do what's right for the city and and you're making a good a good stance here that the infrastructure plan for the city is what's best.

So, Jonathan, when the school board was consulted on the last tiff that we did and we built the 91 residences up there and we gave them a return payback, this is going to be $8.6 million of infrastructure to do these pro improvements. And I think I've got charts where you said they depending upon the speed at which this is developed, they'll be paid back in x number of years and then they'll get their full amount of the tax benefit after the tiff's paid back. 8.6 million. As soon as that's paid back, they're going to get the full amount. I'm sorry, what's that? As soon as the 8.6 was paid back based on the speed of which that was developed, I think you had like six charts or whatever in that proposal.

Um, so but now you're looking at adding another roundabout for five or six million dollars. So you're going to kick that can down the road. they won't be getting their money like we promised when we did that div. We're going to add to that dollar amount and they're going to be delayed. So my point is we kind of change the rules on that one and we can't we cannot change those rules. So that that would have to be done with their consent. If we're using if we're using any of their revenues for additional if you're talking specifically about OILL, let's say it gets rapidly developed and hey uh there's a lot more revenue here than we thought that there would be. Now we have money to do an additional roundabout. Uh we we can't use their revenues for that. We it it sunsets at 8.6 million. Um now if there are situations

so everything that was done in that tiff zone is will be is 8.6 and that's done complete. Can't be changed. Correct. Unless there there would be some sort of Yeah. We can't do the round we can't do the peanut roundabout on that tiff. That's governed by an agreement. So, as far at least not with the school district revenues mathematically until you would have everything developed um with with that particular funding structure, you would you would need to have the school district's written consent to be able to do something like that.

Okay. Well, so that I guess that's my question. What I keep coming back to this is the strategy moving forward for the city. What are the parameters? Jonathan, you already mentioned we're going to do 10 years, but we could do 30 if we wanted to. And I Yeah, I wouldn't want to see that change or that flex back and forth or um let's say we decide five years from now we don't want to extend Riffle Road, we want a roundabout there instead. But are we tied to that project now? No.

Based on I mean it's all let's use Chick-fil-A. It's all over the verbiage of of the Chick-fil-A one. So within the legislation, you'll see an exhibit B and that details all the infrastructure. Now the one thing that we'll need to be able to do is to show that that improvement has a benefit to the area and including that that parcel that's being tiffed. So if we're doing a road, you know, if we're we're taking revenues from Chick-fil-A to do a dog park in downtown, that's going to be extremely hard to justify. How is that benefiting that that region? Well, so how is the Bell store at Smithville Western benefiting the

Riffle Road? The Well, no. It's it's earmarked for the kidney in front of the hospital. No. Uh Bell store would be Riffle Road because of proximity. So, at that point, you're

you're getting a little far away from where the kidney at the hospital would be. But what you are talking about doing with Bells is enabling their next nearest intersection to come into existence with additional access to cle with additional access to Burbank Road. Getting uh you know the heart of your primary market area traffic closer to your route that you can uh hopefully have additional customers from. So that's why a Riffle Road extension would be beneficial for a Bell store. Again, not something that we could assess on a bell store, but it would be beneficial for him. Whereas the kidney, by the time you'd get to the kidney, you've now you've crossed multiple different intersections. Um, and and and that's maybe a little too far away from the corridor to be able to to justify that. We we would want to have a nexus to the project. And if it turned out that, hey, we decided we changed our minds, uh, we don't need that extension anymore, and we don't really have any infrastructure, then you sunset the TIFF, and you remit all of those funds within that fund to the different taxing uh, taxing districts. So, a portion of it would come back to the general fund, portion of it would go to the county, portion of it would go to the schools. So, if we don't use it, that's that's where it would go. Each one of these items of legislation sets up their own individual account that will be within the city budget and something that's looked at annually. Additionally, our school district uh will be on our tax incentive review council. They'll be reviewing okay each of these seven projects along with Clear Creek along with uh Spring Run and they'll be looking at what was the infrastructure improvements to benefit these areas. uh what was invested, how much was invested, and

from that we would expect uh to show some accountability to demonstrate to the public as well as to our partners at the schools that we've delivered good infrastructure that's made an impact in the community. Again, improving quality of life and opening up additional development opportunity to strengthen that tax base. And if we cannot do that with our comprehensive plan projects, um then that would be a reason not to uh look at a program like this. So is that how you determine what projects to use based on the comprehensive plan and their proximity to the pro the comprehensive plan uh ideas and where they would go? Because otherwise I don't understand how you came up with these projects.

Well, as as you said, those those are the target projects. Yes, they are based on their geography to key projects that we identified in the comprehensive plan. And I'd like to I'd like to know which key projects correspond with what.

So those are in the legislation. Uh so that uh specifically written down for this one. Uh Riffle Road uh you'll see uh in the um other uh items the the specific target project that we're taking a look at. So when it comes to something like um the laundromat, car wash, closer to the kidney, uh again that's getting close in proximity. So you're going to be uh you know dependent on relaxed traffic flows through that area. So that's going to and you'll see that here up on the screen. So the way that the legislation's provided, it does provide flexibility for the future, but we wanted to very specifically because we want to be strategic here to call out the specific comprehensive plan projects. The whole purpose of TIFF is to deliver something that's new and impactful. Um, yes, you might be able to do a dog park in downtown with it, but that's not the spirit of the law, and that's not the way that we would recommend uh providing that. um which is why you see that comprehensive plan project for each one of these legis legislative items outlined in bold there. Did question. Did did you recently uh revise this this comprehensive plan to different focus areas by chance?

Because I'm trying may maybe I'm reading too much into this. Cleveland Road in the comprehensive plan where what where does that fall? Because in any of the plans I've seen, Cleveland Road seems a bit outside of any of the focus areas that we've had in the past. I get Smithfield Western up in that area that that has been a focus area in past comprehensive plans,

but I'm I'm just kind of looking through the last comprehensive plan I saw and I don't I mean maybe you can stretch that into the hospital district, but not not really. I'm I'm trying to look at the the focus areas of like a broad comprehensive plan of what kind I I don't understand the comprehensive plan you keep talking about. So, I'm digging into a comprehensive plan you guys gave us. So, in our 2024 comprehensive plan, we have uh a series of focus areas. Uh this is on our website. Great document that just I'm looking at it. I bring it with me.

Yes. So, as you go toward um as you go through that um they they identify um several focus areas. Our downtown arts district, our East Liberty District, hospital, Smithville Western, and Guyire's Chapel. Guys Chapel. Uh and and you'll also see the riffle road extension in there. And that's trying to remember the specific name. We did not name that Cleveland road. It is our north endure. All right.

And within the the memo that we shared, we also provided uh the the page reference for for each of those. But but we have a couple different maps uh depicting how Riffle Road would be extended to develop that connection between Burbank and Cleveland. And again, the reason why that is important for the public and for our primary market area is to again relax some of the traffic flows along what is really our our heaviest traveled corridor. And the more that we can alleviate that congestion, it makes it more inviting and and again it provides a benefit to all those businesses on that corridor.

Most of our peer communities when we're taking a look at how tiff will be utilized uh generally they they will identify specific corridors. So they'll they'll they'll take a main stretch and they'll say, "Okay, everything on corridor X uh will be utilizing TIFF as new development starts and we're going to be using that to repay um bonds or debt service." Now, here we're not recommending that we look at that 100% 30-year model. We don't think that it's really fair to our school district partners. We don't see a strong benefit. We also don't want to saddle ourselves with debt for 30 years. And we want these funds going into projects, not into bank interest. So that's why 10 years 75% while it's uh smaller than most communities, it's the right fit we feel for Worcester and to get the benefit that we need for our mutual taxpayers. [Applause] J that you you mentioned uh as an example that you know it has to be approximate to the property and we can't put a dog park downtown and so

it does some of these don't seem as approximate as others. I mean the apartment building on Cleveland Road you want to use that money to put the roundabout uh at Winkler Oldman and Burbank and that seems a little identified that sounds like a dog park uh downtown to me. We we stretch we identified uh nearest major elomerations of intersections. So we're we're looking for that one. We have the kidney roundabout for the hospital would be our target. So it can go toward that's the Cleveland Bell roundabout.

That is the roundabout that uh our engineering department recently won an award from uh for for grant funding for design. So, I believe our last council meeting we um had approval for issuing design work on that. So, this would the intent again of this ask which one you're talking about. I wasn't at the hospital. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm talking about the kidney. The kidney in front of the hospital. Uh the other thing that's not the one I'm talking about. Okay. Um under the project for the apartments, you have a Cleveland Bell Roundabout for 6,575,000. Okay. And then you also have Winkler, Oldman, Burbank Road, Roundabout. I think we've talked about that a few times before. Correct. For 3.2.

Mhm. And but you're tying it to the apartment buildings that are again almost completed on Cleveland Road. Correct. So seems a little bit far. Well, that's that's again because

those two are not within they kind of sandwiched in between Smithville Western focus area and the hospital district. It feels a bit out of that zone quite a bit and it's already in a tiff district. It's already geographically that roundabout is in a different tiff district that we established 2022. So that's there again to just emphasize the level of public investment that's needed to affect these infrastructure items. The other element that comes into play is anytime we would utilize tiff through a finance, you know, to to be able to utilize the funds, we would expect to make that part of the budget as well. So council would see where these funds are are are going. Um but uh we we do have millions of dollars worth of infrastructure that our comprehensive plan has outlined. Again, we're taking a look at our future availability of grant funds. We're taking a look at what our peers are doing and what we are not doing and we felt that this was a good opportunity to present and the route that we have here again measuring the interests that the effectiveness and and also at the same time trying to protect our partners. Ultimately, uh this again is intended to be able to generate additional development which lowers the tax burden on our residents and gets our school district partners and our local government to a healthier financial state.

All right, one more thing. Okay, we've talked a lot about ifs. I mean, Mayor Reynolds has brought up that what if property taxes go away in the state of Ohio? Correct. What happens? You will not have tiff. Exactly. So, we're spending future tax dollars hoping that in the next 10 years, as we continue 10 years further out, further out that we'll have property taxes. I I imagine. But if we don't and we throw these seven in there

Mhm. and then 30, 40, 50 more and at any of those points property taxes go away. Do we have a plan or have we considered that only because Mayor Reynolds has brought it up multiple times in this council chamber?

Yeah, there there is a uh proposal right now, extremely simple proposal going around uh the state uh attempting to get on the ballot talking about the abolition of property tax. that would make us I think the only state in the union not to effectively have that. Uh so that would across the board uh say that state of Ohio will not have taxes. So uh if that were to pass, I I would think that we'd have many different problems. But as far as a strategy here, that's one of the reasons why we want to be careful about putting ourselves into debt. Um, so we we want to be able to secure some funding, have that grow, and then be able to execute the project with some measured visibility.

Mr. Mayor,

um, yes, if I could address that a little bit, this these proposals only deal with the revenue side for us when again it is a strategy. We're looking to create another revenue stream um for the city. there's no spending component to this. So when you say and is there another strategy if this source goes away you know what that's a question that you know if we're if we're talking about spending on projects that's very appropriate say okay how are we going to pay for this project but what we're talking about now is just creating the revenue stream and again this is not big money as Mr. has pointed out, this is relatively small potatoes, $124,000 a year with these projects, but we'd be looking to do similar things every year with appropriate projects. And and again, with the concern about losing future revenue streams, this would be one new revenue tool that would allow us to set aside money for infrastructure improvements. the spending side, as we've talked many times, that's totally in the hands of council to make spending decisions. And when a project comes along, one of the questions council always asks and should ask is how are we paying for this? So, does that help?

So, I guess it only makes an issue if if we if we were saying we were going to issue debt for all these projects and that's just and that's not part of this proposal at this time. So to give you an example, if we if if we proceeded with the Apple Creek

if if we proceeded with the Apple Creek tank bank tiff and we use that for um for streetscape. Typically, if we issue debt on that, we issue debt for the portion that's going to be covered by the assessments that get paid back by the individual property owners. And that that's the only portion that we issue debt on. It's just short-term to cover until property owners pay their assessment on that. So understood. So if that So that would be I would my suggestion if Andre agrees with me is if there any of these projects if if they were to move forward we just simply wouldn't issue debt that would be we'd be at

counting on this to pay for and to to Bob the mayor's point for each individual project that's a pretty small amount anyway. It wouldn't you know I don't you're not counting on that money. Correct. Correct. So, so let me ask the the hypothetical then. So, let's say that the property taxes do get removed. How do we unwind ourselves from let's just say it happens next year? So, we've got two we got two major tiffs right now and then these seven. So, how do we unwind ourselves from those? I mean, what what's the process in that? If the property tax were to disappear, just like with any other element, it would just be a source of revenues that we were

I'm not talking about the revenue. I'm talking about what I'm assuming some type of legislation piece that we would have to enact in order to unspin ourselves, unconnect ourselves from from that. No, that no, it would just go away. And in in that ex very extreme scenario, that would just it would just simply go away. there there would not be if if you don't have the authority to tax then this disappears just like anything else just like the ability to do assessments the ability to do things like PACE EID financing all of that would just disappear

so but my point is buried in this legisl these pieces of legislation is $6.2 $2 million for the roundabout at Winkler Oldman and Burb Bank Roads and we build it. Let's say you build it next year and then the property taxes go away. We don't how do we get that paid back? So, with every infrastructure project that we do, we're going to want to take a look at sources and uses. This is your source, right? So, this this will not be our only source. This is this is capital more than 6.2 million. What's that? It's going to be more than the 6.2 million. This is not going to generate any anywhere near that amount. But um but that's the two project you're tying these two projects to that and you're getting approval to do the $6.2 million roundabout.

We'll be coming back for official approval on use of funds at a later date if this is made available. But um as far as where this portion of funding would go, it it it would disappear. Um chances are uh because of uh property taxes making up 20% of our budget. um that a lot of other things are going to be happening at that time as well. Uh but there there would be a reallocation of of funds to cover any um expenses that that we would have as a result of that. Um for the most part, we would not

I don't know if Jonathan can answer that. that that might be a I I mean we're talking about very unlikely hypotheticals, but again like if if property tax did not exist, this just would not be a topic to even venture on. We'd have bigger troubles than a roundabout at that point. Yeah. So to use to use that example, I'm not I'm not even using the roundabout as an example, right? Just overall, but any any example, let's say a million dollar project that was on the budget Yeah, exactly. But let's just say we had a million-dollar project, a roadway project or something um and we were coming to you next year and and say we like to do this project.

We always tell you here's how we anticipate funding it. There, you know, none of these projects are a significant amount. You know, say $100,000 that they would generate over 10 years is is going to be a small amount. That would just be one small piece of revenue to pay for whatever that project was million2 million dollar project. So obviously we would have other sources we would be presenting to council to approve to pay for that project. This would just be a little piece, you know, of it. But when you add them all up, you know, these these projects over 10 years, 1.2 million, that that's, you know, a decent amount of money that we thought was worthwhile trying to capture to help pay for some of those improvements.

If all of these combined only generate 1.2 million, why do you list a $6.4 million roundabout in the documents? that would be a project for which you could use some of this money towards. So, you know, uh 10020 $300,000 over 10 years towards that project I don't think is insignificant um to lower the amount of general fund money that we'd be using for that. Thanks. That that was our thought anyway that it was it was significant enough to present for to council for consideration.

Yeah. So like when when we're looking at Finley, Green, Norton, places like that, again, we feel that that's um a very strategic way to help support their community to, you know, part of the reason why they're doing well. Um again, is being able to deliver that infrastructure and they're they're building up their tax base and they're building up their schools as they do that. Uh this is not a tax break. This is merely us taking the ball for a little bit and running to affect new infrastructure that makes a permanent improvement in that community so that you have a stronger tax base going forward.

What's the implications of creating like the tiff districts on the parcels themselves? So specifically like the Apple Creek Bank, I don't know why they would agree to that in the first place because I would assume it'd be eligible for CRA downtown revitalization. We typically haven't done CRA for community banks uh and and we uh gener outside of like doing like rehabilitation type work. So when it's a new facility, somebody like CSV um you know, they've gone ahead, they've built their own structure without tax exemption. They have another program that incidentally is also called CRA where you're supposed to be making an investment to help benefit your community. So, our community banks typically don't look toward that. Uh that doesn't mean that they don't want that or would not take that with the opportunity if it came to them, but in a case like this, utilizing TIFF does give us the ability to help support a project like that by wrapping it into the downtown with more quality streetscape. TIFF is when we're talking about parcel tiff, this is not with consent of the property owners. So again, that's why when we were talking before about, you know, who owns the property, it it really becomes irrelevant in the conversation because the city has to take a look at is there going to be development here and if so, does public infrastructure benefit this area? and does it create a demand on public infrastructure?

So then I guess why would we do this in the CRA zones anyways if we don't know that Apple Creek Bank will go there? Aren't we just taking that group of parcels off the table?

So I can talk offline. I I'll talk offline with you about this very specific project. But if you do tiff a project, um you do still have the option to provide a CRA after the fact. It just means that you will not have any tiff revenue because your CRA will exempt the you know your your CRA provides a tax break. So you can create a tiff and say all right we're going to redirect revenues from here to pay for public infrastructure. And then you can come back later and you can say oh hey we've got a competitive project we're going to provide CRA. Uh that's fine. You can do that and some communities will actually do both on very impactful major downtown projects. Um but uh what it means is you're going to be generating a lot less on the tiff because it's going to be exempted first. But some some communities will do both for the right project.

Jonathan, so are we going to tiff Jared's new warehouse then? No. Uh well and in in in in this case um no that that would not be a fit for how that project came about. But had they not utilized CRA to the extent that they did, I'm sorry, enterprise zone to the extent that they did, TIFF could be an option up there. Yes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the return to the city depend upon the increase in in the property value and the tax value that the improvements make? And isn't that the money that we're going to be used for any we're going to use for any improvements? And have we done calculations with respect to what those increases would actually be?

Correct. That's what's up on the screen. Yes. And we did we performed this for each project. Uh we also provide this to our city schools. Um you know we're not required to provide this detail but um I think it's like you know just for how you brought it up. I think it's very important to to know that. So we do have that together and we do share that with our partners as part of our conversations with utilizing this so that they can see how we're coming up with our estimates and that we've also taken the time to think about what that would mean for us but also for them. So, for example, um you know, one of these projects, you know, we're we're taking a look at um you know, with some of these new developments, um you know, we we map out, you know, the schools would would anticipate would receive like let's say a typical restaurant, uh you'll receive roughly $4,000 of new revenues that you weren't receiving before,

property tax, property tax. you'll receive an additional $8,000 in shared new income taxes. So, these are mainly minimum wage jobs. So,

but but it would amount to about $8,000 at at that. So, it it is still impactful. It's still creating an opportunity. Um and it's still creating demand in the market. Uh and then that has the effect for all of us of helping to, you know, hopefully boost wages, which which we want to see for our residents. Um, so the the net that the school district receives then is 13,000 while it is exempted. I'm sorry, while while while the tiff is in place, I'm sorry. So while the tiff is in place, they would see 13,000 and then when the tiff expires, they would then see 17,000 and that would

So we would use the increase in the property taxes first and then the school would get the increase in the property taxes when we when the tiff expires. Is that correct? the school district will enjoy at least 25% of the new revenues. In some cases, uh they may approach closer to 80 to 90% of the new revenues. Um it just depends again on payroll because we we share those revenues. If we're doing really well, we can share with them. So it it just depends. Which is great if we've got highpaying jobs, these correct minimum wage jobs.

Well, your your typical restaurant will occasionally um come very close to covering that. I mean, and it's one of the questions we would anticipate uh, you know, if we do this program five, six years from now, we may not recommend having a Chick-fil-A in here because the uh, amount of revenues that you would end up sharing would outweigh the amount of property tax. Probably not a lot of payroll tax for an apartment building. Correct. A lot of money to share there. So we're just basically taking that money then from them.

State law encourages communities, townships, and cities to to utilize this program to do new infrastructure. So if we're following that spirit of the law and we are delivering to our schools good infrastructure that generates new development that supports them, in this case, you know, kidney roundabout at the heart of our city at the hospital district. Um if we can deliver on that, then we're living up to the spirit of the law. If we are just using it for maintenance or a funding stream, then no, that would not be within the spirit. And I would imagine that anybody would call us out on that when this gets reviewed annually.

Can you tiff? You made the comment, Jonathan, that you can tiff without property owners consent. So, so I guess where does it stop? Can we tiff a million-doll home that gets built on the north end? No, because that's not commercial. So that has to be commercial. Maybe we should tiff the new ER department for the hospital. And I guess my they're tax exempt. So well, and I I guess my feeling is is too um you know

what makes a tiff special if you could tiff any any commercial property. I mean I read through the materials and again I have more research to do but there are certain criteria that the tiff was was established to address. I mean, can we put a tiff on all the commercial property in in Worcester? It may not be practical to do all. Um, again, you want to be able to tiff properties where they will have a benefit from increased traffic circulation or some other in some other increase in service. Well, that would probably be every business. I mean, every business wants to have good

You could to a degree. some some communities will use this and say, "Hey, we're going to go fund improvements to our water plant because this new business is going to generate um an incremental increase in service. So, we uh will utilize that for our water treatment plant." That is a legit, legal, and proper use of it. Um however, uh again, the spirit of the law is that we do something that is building up revenues for everybody when the project is done. And so for that reason ultimately again this this will have to be part of the budget conversation uh annually going forward because each one of these will feature as its own item in the budget um you know the um properness of the infrastructure that that we are funding. So again, that's that's why you see this being focused with these details on this specific, you know, and I in focusing on the comprehensive plan elements as opposed to saying, hey, we just want to do general maintenance.

I understand that. It's just my reading of it. Again, it was just cursory reading is to address to to increase and uh economic development and to address blighted areas to address economically undeveloped or underdeveloped areas. Um so to Mr. Jose's point on on the house, one of the unique features that we haven't utilized tiff before is you can use it for blighted housing. So, flighted housing um outside of the residential incentive districts that we've done, you can use this flavor of parcel tiff to do um housing. That's that's

not what I was talking about at all. What I was talking about was commercial. Generally speaking, this this has been used to redevelop blighted areas.

I would say not with the majority of projects on on the state. Again, with the 2,700 that are out there, uh, you know, our top producing ones, uh, you know, again, we're we're we're taking a look at places like Dublin, places like Green, this is all new suburban infrastructure that they're establishing. And so again, we're taking a look at our our peer communities that we're similar in size to, looking at how they're utilizing this, and we're just asking the question, can we be more strategic and mindful uh with how we're utilizing our tools so that we can provide for the best level of service and infrastructure for our our residents. So, it's um if if we look at Department of Development, um they they actually list uh all tiffs that are in existence. We're we're on there as well. for or seven of that 215 2715 we we have seven of those um but uh it is not restricted to light there there are 21 different ways or um I apologize it might be 22 different ways that you can apply tiff in different statutes that you can utilize for it some are going to be focused on blight some are going to be focused on lack of infrastructure some are going to be focused on general improvements and so what we're looking at when we're looking Looking at section B of this code, we're taking a look along what most people would describe suburban development. We're looking at improvements that we can make that again make that area more accessible to those parcels. How do we improve road and traffic flow through our hospital area so people can get up and down that Cleveland road corridor to these?

So people can get to the gas station and laundry mat. What's that? So people can get to the gas station and laundry mat. So, if if if I'm the developer of the laundromat, I'm I'm saying I have an easier traffic flow. I have hopefully more traffic. I have hopefully an easier time with people accessing my site. I'm an easier spot to get to because I I don't have this crunch point that maybe kept people from coming out and venturing over to my area before.

All right. I I want to go ahead and wind this down. We've we've uh covered a lot of ground, but I I do want to finish with one question for Mr. Montgomery. You're the You're the one that's tied. You You keep track of what's going on in in Columbus. And I I don't for one minute think that the voters of Ohio will vote down property tax. I think they at least understand that that that really funds villages, townships, fire and police and in those areas. Um, but we have discussed that there is movement within the Ohio General Assembly, the Senate, and with the governor that they do want property tax reform. How do how do we react if there is significant property tax reform, though? It's not gone, but it changes quite a bit. And it could, you know, like Jonathan says, hey, if property taxes go away, well, TIFF goes away. Well, let's just say, well, don't go away, but it's significantly changed,

reduced, and it's reduced. How do we how do we combat that? What does that look like? And can I jump in real quick just because Hey, you stole your thunder, Joel. I really want to talk to you about this. I'll just say the real short part of it in the big sense. I hope you're I absolutely hope you're right in the overall property tax going away entirely, but I think we talked about this before. The cities get a very small slice of that. Um, we do and there's a real possibility that our slice could go away entirely.

So, I'll just leave it at that. So, you know, I sure hope you're right. I think the chances of property taxes going away entirely for everybody is small, but there is a chance that changes be made that would take away the slice we get. So, that I'll shut up after that. Yeah. So, so we would take more from the schools like we're doing here. So, some of it has to do with, you know, that 20 mil floor you hear him talking about a lot. Our school's already there, so you won't see a significant change for us. Um, based on everything I've seen so far that's been submitted

um by the legislature, which seems to line up pretty well with what the governor's task force has also recommended and what and also what the OML has has recommended. You know, they gave a list of things. Um, I you know, most people were in favor of some kind of t property tax reform. Obviously, we are as well um to a degree, but it makes sense. But the one thing that they left off of that they were talking about during the budget cycle was the elimination of inside mess. So that's not part of that and that's our that's all we get is inside mills. Right. So that's not part of the packages that they submitted that I'm aware of to date. So we would be protected.

So it would be no real change. I mean maybe there'll be some minor stuff when they start capping you know and and giving more uh you know exemptions and things like that but for the most part it's what 9 10% is that right of our budget the property is 9%.

Yeah. So, you know, if you look at it from that perspective, even if that all went away, you know, the city's pretty healthy right now and uh we would just plan ahead, you know, and uh and make sure we accounted for that. It would probably take four years or so for us to if that completely went away for us to figure out how to redirect and make up and, you know, be lean for a while, that kind of thing. Um but uh right now I'm not aware of a proposal by the legislature that would eliminate completely eliminate the inside noses which is what we did. Okay. Well with that after long debate we'll leave that on first reading. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much.

All right. We'll move on to our miscellaneous. Uh we had one person sign up for that. Mr. Barnett.

Good evening. I signed up because of the hearing impaired. I am hearing impaired. I only have five to 10% in my right ear. Uh I come to these meetings. Tuesday morning, you know what I do? I get my coffee and get my phone, watch YouTube, so I see what I miss. Uh I'm not going to pick on anybody, but there's a lot of you I don't hear. Everybody needs to take a lesson. He I can hear him all night long. Um but anyhow, all I want to do is uh let you know uh that's why I talk so loud to I want you to let you know there is a te coil loop. Uh they have it down in the Methodist church. Uh most places that have public hearings have this in the bigger cities. You go in and there'll be a symbol. It has an ear shape of an ear and two arrows in it. The method is church down here has it. Uh when I walk in the room, I pull out my phone, hit a button, and it goes right to my herinades. I can hear everybody then. Uh I would suggest the city looks into that. And I was wanted to bring it to her text. I uh it isn't I don't enjoy watching you Tuesday morning, but it would be nice to hear what's going on in Thank you.

Thank Thank you. All right. Well, we'll start off with Mr. Jose. Fun, lively discussion today. We have a lot to chew over and um hope everyone has a safe Halloween. That is all, Mr. President. All right. Thank you, Mr. Abernathy. Jonathan, good work taking the bullets tonight, buddy. So, that'll leave it at that. you you took a lot of bullets tonight. I know it's a tough conversation. Um there's still a lot of questions to be answered, but you got grilled tonight. You took it like a champ. So, appreciate it, Mr. Knappic.

Yep. I would I think this was very fruitful, very informative discussion tonight. I am very impressed with all the really great questions from everybody on council. Um proud to be a part of this group. And uh Jonathan, yep, thank you. Appreciate that. go home and have a ice water or whatever it is that you have when you go home. But thank you very much and thank you everyone for being here tonight. Thank you Mr. Gaffy.

Yeah, just uh really appreciated the uh conversation there. Taking notes for for next time. So, um just uh also really appreciate the veterans banners downtown. That was a nice addition. Uh and it's nice to see those and read those uh driving around our downtown area. Um, that's about it for me. All right. Thank you, Mr. Malta. Thank you. Yep. Thank you all for attending and listening to us talk for a very long time. We appreciate that. All those on YouTube as well. Um, I do want to say thank you for those banners. I do have a friend's father that just passed away Thursday and he is up downtown. So, it hit home pretty hard, but it's great. Thank you,

Mr. Myers. Um, yeah, I want to thank everybody for the debate back and forth and I have better understanding and yeah, Jonathan, thank thank you for clarifying a lot of different things. Uh, we appreciate that. Um, I just want to encourage people the Boys and Girls Club here of of Worcester is having their annual dinner on November 7th at Greystone. Um, it's the theme this year is going to be walk in their shoes. Um, I can spill the beans. There's going to actually be a 7 foot by seven foot shoe that the Ro Romik uh foundation is building for the event. So, there's going to be some fun things. So, if you can to support that event, again, it's 5:30 Greystone on November 7th. Um, and so if you get a chance, that should be a fun night. So, motion to adjurnn. Second.

Motion to adjourn. Second. All in favor signify by saying I. I. I. We'rejourn. Thank you all. Nice job, everybody.

Okay. So, we know the shortest meeting record is like 20 minutes, but what's the longest one?