Planning & Zoning Commission - Regular Meeting

I'd like to call the September 2nd meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission to order. Tonight on the agenda, we have four public hearings, really two. Uh, two information reports and one new correspondence item. Uh, roll call of commission members, please. Commissioner Borne here. Mr. Borne's here via Zoom. Commissioner Hilfrey, Commissioner Con here, Commissioner Clayton here, Commissioner Dppler, Commissioner Jackson here, Commissioner Rubis here, Chair Batty here, Council Member Marshall present. Mayor Geritano, thank you.

All right. Thank you. Um, let's hear. Does the Department of Planning have any opening comments? Mr. Chair, we do not, but thank you all for attending. Can I get an approval of the minutes from August 4th, please? Uh, Commissioner Clayton. Thank you. Second by Councilman Marshall. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? Motion carries. Thank you. Thank you.

I guess I did that backwards. Um, now is now we'll go into public comment. If you want to speak on the public hearings, now is not your time. But if you want to speak on uh any of the other agenda items, now is your time. And bring a speaker card to Mr. Newberry at the front and he'll call you when it's your turn to speak. M

Mr. Chair, for the general public comment session, I do not have any speaker cards submitted. I do have some on Zoom. Anybody on Zoom, as the chair just described, would like to speak on anything that's not related to one of the public hearing items, but another agenda item, now is the time to raise your hand using the raise hand feature on Zoom. Not seeing any hands. Okay. All right. Um, at this time, we'll go ahead and go into the public hearings in the city of Wildwood. Public hearings are truly intended to accept comments and questions concerning these posted items. Since these requests are being presented at a public hearing, no action is planned on these items tonight and consideration of it is to be taken no earlier than the October 2025 planning and zoning commission meeting. This approach ensures the member the members of the commission will hear all opinions before taking any action. The city's department of planning will address the comments, questions, and concerns that are raised tonight and include them as part of its formal recommendation to the planning and zoning commission. Anyone in attendance at city hall tonight wanting to speak should fill out a speaker card and leave it with Mr. Newberry. Those in attendance via the Zoom webinar platform should use the raise hand feature to indicate you wish to speak at these hearings. A Tim team member will add you to the list of speakers which will then be communicated to me as chair and I will invite you to speak when it is your turn. The public hearing process is outlined in the public hearing guidelines pamphlet which can be found on the table at the entry area to the council chambers. The commission will allow all parties adequate time to present their position as outlined in the public hearing guidelines pamphlet. Those individuals representing themselves will be allocated three minutes to speak. Uh speakers who are designated as a group speaker representing a group of more

than five individuals will be allocated 5 minutes to speak. In addition, information on these items can be found on the city's website at www.c cityof wildwood.com. The commission would like to thank you for your cooperation and participation at tonight's hearings. Um Mrs. Bunich PZ7-25. Mr. Chair, with your permission, I'll read all three since as you've mentioned, they are all interrelated. And also, I would just note a typo in the title after the PZ number. We called it West Mills. It's West Mill. No plural.

So, our apology. PZ7-25 West Mill. Wayland Custom Homes Care of Mike Whan 338 South Kirkwood Road Sweet 103 Kirkwood, Missouri 63112. A request for a change in the zoning district designations of three properties that form a tract of land that is 1.74 acres in area from the R6A 4,000 ft resident district town center neighborhood general district to the R47500T resident district which are identified by the following street addresses in St. Louis County locator numbers 17,02 17,06 17,010 New College Avenue and 24V 420351 24V 420340 and 24V 42033. This particular property is located in Ward 8. The second of the three petitions is PZ7A-25 West Mill Whan Custom Homes Care of Mike Whan 338 South Kirkwood Road, Sweet 103, Kirkwood, Missouri 63112. a request for a change in the zoning district designation of two properties that form attractive land that is 6 acres in area from the NU non-urban resident district suburban residential area to the R1A22,000 square foot resident district which are identified by the following street addresses 2623 and 2631 West Avenue and St. Louis County locator numbers 24V420153 and 24V 420186. This property as is in the first is located in Ward 8. And the final of the three petitions PZ7B-25 West Mill Whan Custom Homes Care of Mike Whan 338 South Kirkwood Road Sweet 103

Kirkwood, Missouri 63112. a request for application of a planned residential development overlay district PRD in the R1A 22,000 square foot resident district and the R4 7500 square foot resident district for an overall and combined tracks of land totaling a size of 8.05 acres in area with the following street addresses and St. Louisis County locator numbers 17,02 17,06 and 17,010 New College Avenue and 2623 and 2631 West Avenue 24V 420351 24V 420340 24V 420033 24V 420153 and 24V 420186 Proposed use A total of 17 detached single family dwellings on individual lots of record with common ground areas, access accommodations, required public spaces, and storm water management facilities. Jim, like the first two petitions, this particular property is located in Ward 8. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair and members of the planning and zoning commission. As is typical for public hearings, the department has prepared a brief uh slideshow presentation of just some aerials, some exhibits, and then some photographs of the subject site. So, the first is an aerial of the general area within the city. Uh it's the south side of New College Avenue, west of West Avenue. The next slide is a little bit um zoomed in. This will give you an idea of specifically where it's located. Um to the north is the new um Good News Brewing and Manchester Road. To the east is the recently approved Ashley Grove subdivision, the existing Stonemill subdivision, and then the properties along Center Avenue. Uh to the south is the Westridge Oaks subdivision. Um and then to the west is Westridge office um centers one and two and then State Route 109. Um the photographs are kind of broken into two sections. Um the first relate to the three properties that are on um New College Avenue and then the different access um public roads um in the area. So the next slide is a superimposed um of the development onto an aerial image. A little difficult to read in the setting but um and then this is the proposed layout for um the 17 lot proposed subdivision. The next slide is um the photographs will kind of move from the east side of the site to the west side of the site. Um this is standing at New College Avenue and West Avenue looking toward the north towards Manchester Road. This is standing at the same location looking to the south towards the terminus of West Avenue into Private Drive. Uh this is looking across the street generally in the area of the um approved recently approved Ashley Grove

subdivision. Um Center Avenue is beyond the field here, the 5acre field. And this is looking west onto um New College Avenue. The the um properties on the left side of this image are the subject properties. Um, and then this is standing at the southeast corner near the southeast area of the site where West Avenue terminates into the private drive that goes onto the two threeacre parcels that are part of the subject site as well. This is looking towards the north and then this is the terminus terminus of West Avenue into the private drive that accesses the two threeacre parcels that are part of this proposal. And again, sticking to the the area of the site that's uh along New College Avenue. This is standing at that terminus of the street looking to the the west and a little bit to the north. You can see the um office center development there. Uh this is another view of the subject property that along New College Avenue. And this is further um west on the site looking toward the west. This is towards the west end of the site. And this is standing in generally the same location looking to the east towards West Avenue. And this is standing at the far west end of this area of the site looking to the east. Um the development you see uh the housing you see in the middle there that's uh homes on Center Avenue. And the next few photographs are an attempt to show you the kind of the rural character of the two threeacre um parcels um that are part of this subject proposal. Um this is the one to the north and the private drive and then the next one a little bit

further to the south. Um again this is the entrance into that 3acre area. It's wooded and rural in character. With that, that concludes the department's presentation and we can have any of these exhibits up um as the discussion proceeds. Thank you, Mr. Newberry. And the the petitioner is in attendance um to present tonight as well. Okay. Um would the petitioner like to come forward and speak?

Thank you, Mr. Chair, members of the commission, uh Joe and Travis. appreciate you guys getting this put together for this meeting. Uh I'm Mike Whan with Wayland Custom Homes. I've presented before most of you before. Um West Mill um is our latest proposed development. Uh sort of it abuts a previous development called Stonemill directly to the east and uh we thought it'd be appropriate to to call this West Mill. it will be the same quality of of uh construction that we have over there. Uh with one exception, um there were some lots or there was a piece of property, three three parcels that I'm sure you're all well aware of that were uh part of a multif family zoning project uh whereby 18 uh town homes were approved. Uh that project never moved forward. We reached out to the owner of that property and we thought it would be a nice addition to this project to have some detached single family villas with rear entry garages. Beautiful uniform look on New College Avenue. Um just be a nice uh nice product to be able to offer uh in tandem with our uh luxury custom single family homes. um not many new single family detached villas in Wildwood anymore. So, we thought that'd be a nice complement to what we were doing. Um beautiful project. We really uh we're going to be able to preserve the trees all around the perimeter um and and keep that keep that beautiful typical Wildwood lot. Our lot sizes are are um 15,000 square foot and up for the most part. Uh, some are over half of an acre. So, I'd be happy to answer any questions or give you any more details

if you like. All right. Thank you, Mr. Whan. Um, is there any questions from the commission? Thank you very much. All right. Thank you. Um, speaker cards. Mr. Chair, the department have not received any speaker cards um other than Mr. Wayins. Um, but we do have some on Zoom if you'll let me check that. If you're in attendance via Zoom and would like to speak during uh regarding this public hearing item, please use the raise hand feature at this time. Not seeing any hands uh on Zoom, Mr. Chair.

Okay. This is unexpected for housing development. Um, Mr. Chair, if there are any questions or comments from the commission members, certainly the department would welcome them at this time. Um, I So, um, reading this, the properties along New College Avenue, that zoning, even though the previous development fell apart, that zoning still holds that we changed it to. And it's residential, not commercial zoning currently.

Yes. The way the zoning code explains it is that the underlying zoning survives when done in conjunction with an overlay district, but the overlay district does not. In this particular instance, the R6A district did survive, but given the new type of unit and the density, it's not necessary. And so to provide that long-term protection, the department and the developer agreed to basically zone it to ensure that there is five lots there if that's what the commission recommends, but that the design would be accommodated by the designation of the property from the zoning standpoint.

Okay. Um, this might be going a little off topic because it's based on hearing stuff secondhand, but um, with good I there was a rumor and feel free to stop me if I'm going too far off, but there was a rumor that Good News was interested in the property on the north side of the street. So, if if they wanted to go through with that, they would need to get that changed back to commercial if they wanted it correct. Yes, Mr. Chair. I believe it to be more than a rumor. Mr. Lee, our city administrator, and the department of planning, met with the owner of Good News Brewing Company, and at that time, they were seeking more parking. The site wouldn't be used for additional activities. Um, again it was overflow parking

and for the most part the department at that time thought it was essential because of that opening weekend where we had kind of cars all over everywhere more so than anticipated. There's a couple of things that the owner of the current facility needs to address as part of their occupancy of the existing facility and then after those are addressed, the department is assured then we can get back to the overflow parking. But as long as there are some outstanding issues, we need to get those um addressed first. You're talking outstanding issues at the Good News building.

Yes. Okay. It's again, it's things like the type of signage they have. It's a temporary banner. They need to address that. It's just things that I think from the perspective of someone opening a new business are not things you necessarily put at the top of your list, but I think we're at that point where we can get to the bottom now. Yeah. And um Yeah. And what I've heard came from the owner of Good News's mouth, but I think long range he was talking about wanting to move his brewering to that property. And I don't know how long range he's talking, but

Right. And certainly the owner of the the brewery has talked to the city on multiple occasions about future expansions. There's room on the current site to accommodate another building to the west. Um, but again, it's just I think how successful this particular facility is and what if it's successful enough, I'd like to think they'll invest more into the community. And but as you've asked, if anything changes on that lot to the south of Good News Brewing Company and north of New College Avenue, it would come back as a public hearing and get the full review of the commission members.

All right. I appreciate it. Mostly I'm just trying to keep help kind of helping him keep his options open. I'm not opposed to anything any of these what Mr. Whan Whan has presented. Um I'm just looking out for future conflicts, I guess. Well, it's certainly a good point because if we place houses onto New College Avenue, which originally was intended to have office warehouse buildings, we need to ensure that what occurs next across the street is appropriate. It all fits together, so to speak, right? And so your concern is is very valid. Yeah.

Thank you. If no one has any other questions, a motion to close the public hearing. All right. Motion by Commissioner Rubis, second by Commissioner Clayton. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? Thank you. Public hearing is now closed. The first one. Next on the agenda, Mr. Newberry, PZ9-25.

PZ9-25 Fields at Clouds End LLC A50 Babler Park Drive, Wildwood, Missouri 630005. A request for the consideration of a conditional use permit CUB in the NU non-Urban Residence District and FPNU Floodplane non-urban residence district for an 18acre tract of land that is located on the southeast side of Babler Park Drive north of its intersection with Guy Park Drive. Street address is 840 and 850 Babler Park Drive, St. Louis County. Locator numbers 21X64309 and 21X 64291. Proposed use horseboarding and training facility including a riding stable in an indoor riding arena ward three. All right. Thank you, Mr. Newberry. Mr. Vich.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before Mr. Newberry provides the slide presentation of the department, given that this is a request for a conditional use permit, the department would like to introduce into the record the following items. the city's charter, the city's master plan, the zoning ordinance, chapter 415, including 415.500, the conditional use permit procedure, the file that has been developed and maintained by the Department of Planning regarding this particular request and all contents contained therein. And then finally, any testimony that is provided as part of tonight's public hearing. Thank you. All right. Thank you, Mr. Vunich, Mr. Newberry.

Thank you, Mr. chair. Um again, as part of the public hearing, the department will provide a brief presentation um with um exhibits and and photographs of the site. Um the blue square in the middle of the screen is where the subject property is located um just to the east of Babler State Park on Babler Park Drive. The entrance to Babler State Park, the main entrance is is here, if you can see my cursor, um just to the south of these properties. This is just a closer up image. Um, and then this is a proposed preliminary development plan. Um, you notice that there are two lots as referenced in what what I just read into the record. Um, what is being proposed is on this lot. um this facility here and then um existing currently on the property to the south is a single family home and some accessory dwellings or accessory buildings, excuse me. And then this is just an elevation of the proposed facility and this just a a few photographs. This is um looking to the north on um Babler Park Drive at the northern entrance to the northern of the two properties. This is looking to the south. You can see the brown sign there that's directing you to enter into Babler um State Park. The next few photographs are from the uh standing at Babler Park Drive looking on towards the property. There's a couple different angles. That's looking more to the north. And then this is interior to the site at

the existing single family home, the parking area there. This is looking towards the north. And then this is a little bit um pointed more to the west but still to the north. And this is looking almost directly west towards the roadway um to capture the existing paddics. And that's the conclusion of the department's slideshow presentation. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Newberry. Um do you have any speaker cards? Uh yes. Representative Masher Holtz is in attendance. Okay. if you want to come forward.

Good evening. Hi.

And thank you chairman and planning and zoning committee. Um you know you guys have a very you know advers you know a lot about Wildwood and Wildwood is 30 almost 30 years old right and very rich with horse property. It's part of its history. It's part of this property's history. And what we're planning to do here is enhance it. Um, this this piece of property actually has a cup from St. Louis County that's over 40 years old. So, um, in working with the commission, we'd like to update it to Wildwood standards. You know, put in black top roads. You know, the fencing is already beautiful, but do more maintenance. You know, enrich the existing buildings, put facades on them that are more pleasant to the eye, and then build this facility, which would be one of the prettiest barns in all Wildwood. Um, it is the plan for this barn mostly. I mean, they are ex-end horses that will be there. They travel at least 6 months a year. So, um they're only there 6 months except for some young ones that stay back for training. Um it's a low very low um in and out from a client perspective. It's just a few clients. Um we put 45 um parking places on it because I was involved with the cup next to it and the site development plan called a parking place per kind of um stall. So, we added that. We don't need all of that, but we will do anything that the commission asks us to do. Um, we are prepared to, um, you know, like I said, make the roads better. Um, make the grounds prettier and add trees. We're going to the whole

drive-in will be lined with new trees. It'll have a burm all around the new building. Um, you know, after obviously the CUP, there's a big site development plan process where we get into all kinds of manure and all of that kind of maintenance that goes into it. And Wildwood has a very specific rules that we must follow, which of course we will and probably better. One of the things that's on this paperwork to you that I think is really important is that we're saying there's going to be 8 to 10 employees. Well, the ratio for employees is higher than most any barn in St. Louis, and that's a positive. That means the grounds will be wellmaintained. That means the horses will be well maintained. That means the manure will be wellmaintained. All of those things that can be a concern for people will have the right amount of staff to make sure that all of that's taken care of, which is very important to it's my daughter's um barn and my son-in-law and then the barn next to it is where she trains horses now. And so um this is just this is just the new part of that business that's already going. Um and it she they are very very um particular about horse care and management of the fields and you'll never see six or seven horses in a field there out at one time. You're not going to see horses there 247 out. Um they just they maintain the grass. They turn over everything to make sure everything stays green. They're um ve just very particular and very very knowledgeable on how to take care of horses and how to take care of the property at the same time which for her very much goes hand in hand. If the property is not well taken care of the horses don't progress

and they don't do what they need to do to perform for the clients. So all of that when you've got that kind of thing, it's not a riding program where you can walk in off the street and ride. It is a private program for horse show customers basically. Um so I mean not to say that no one would ever come in and ride because we certainly welcome people to do that and she I mean kids stop by all the time and we invite people on. She's got rescue little ponies and rescue donkeys and you know not a lot like three or four but you know they she's very I mean I don't know I mean I'm an animal lover but God love her we she's be big much bigger and beyond me in a lot of in everything in every way. So I think it's really important for the commission to know how much love and effort will we put into this project. I mean, you can look at the elevation. Um, this is an, you know, outstanding look. Um, very Wildwoodesque in the look. Um, and the the thing that I love about it, too, is we're sourcing all the materials from from companies in Missouri, uh, which is important to her. We're supporting, you know, more businesses that way. And, um, you know, we've got a really good team of people that we put together. Bull's Engineering is our engineer who works through Wildwood all the time. You know, water management will all be handled per the commission's recommendation. They're, you know, we're prepared to do what you guys need to do, need us to do to make this a successful project.

All right. Thank you. You're welcome. So, is that on Missouri American or Wellwater there? Well, well, and is I guess it's on septic also, correct? Um, and it will have its own well and its own septic. And they're actually even looking into some sort of fire system. It's It's a tough call, but we're looking into it. Thank you. Um, is there any questions from the commission? Sure. There's no there's no change in ownership. No.

Okay. So, that the people who own the ground now are are requested. Yes, sir. And is is the facility now used for boarding horses and training horses? So, I don't know. Have you you you all been by this property on Babler Park? I I I know where it's location and but I've never paid that.

So, the big white house that sits next to it, um I did that project with those barns there and so she trains out of that barn right now. And then right now she has her private horses on her property and occasionally a horse get turns out gets turned out there but no one is trained there at this point. And so that's part of the cup. We would like to train there. We'd like to expand the ability to train horses and make both of those properties work well as neighbors. I mean it's horse ground. It's not development ground. I mean that's that's what it is. It's low. It's the grass is green, you know. I mean, it it's not I mean that this is like horse heaven on that property.

It's it's barn. You're also proposing an indoor riding arena. Yes. That would be connected Yes. to the barn.

So, and let me talk to you about this indoor riding arena, which we're super excited about. Um at the Brooks, we have an outdoor and an indoor. We have both. Um, and so what we want to do here is an outdoor arena that's connected, but it will be wrapped with glass garage doors. So a beautiful glass garage doors all around around the perimeter. So in the nice weather, the garage doors will come up and but they will not be in the sun. So um you know standing out in the sun as long as she does every day isn't super healthy. So, we were trying to figure out a way to make that work for the horses, for the clients, and for her. And we saw this on the East Coast. And it's gorgeous, and it works great. Um, so it's uh it's an expensive proposition to have glass garage doors. It's over it's over a half million dollars just to do the garage doors, but it they're beautiful. And so, it's kind of been the answer. I am I'm very wordy. Sorry. It's a little bit of an indooroutdoor situation. Outdoor when they're up, indoor when they're down. So

the uh the manure that's generated, do you plan to use that?

No. So we'd love to use it. It's too much manure for this size property. So what we learned, we've learned a lot at the Brooks House next door on manure management. We'll have a budget of about $50,000 a year to remove manure. That's probably a little rich on what we need, but that's what our budget will be. And that's, you know, two dumpsters a week. Um, and they'll be in I know it's crazy, right? I mean, it it'll be in there'll be So, one of the things that we did on our cup, and I'm probably just messing my life up, making it harder for me right now, but one of the things we did in our cup for Brooks is that we had the the dumpsters enclosed in like a wood, you know, like a wood fenced area with a gate. That is doesn't work really well, right? The gate's always kind of like not great. So, what we're going to do in this property is we're going to build a block outside so it's sturdy concrete and and the the dumpsters will be in there and they it'll last and then we'll face it with something pretty, right? Because the you know it's when you go to a restaurant and you go around the back and you see dumpsters in the back and you see their gates and their wood kind of like not great. We're going to avoid that. You know, we've learned that that's a very hard thing to manage day-to-day. So, we're going to build this much more substantially and we'll include in our site development plan a full manure removal. It's it's it's a I did this calculation. I wish I could remember the math to tell you right now, but it's a calculation per horse and I have to include that for these guys up here to um to meet Wildwood need and what they require of me to do. And then we will probably also I'm sure we'll

exceed it. This property will also have an insect um management program for um flies and everything in in place. It's it's going to be very high-tech comparatively speaking. Um the footing that goes in the indoor doesn't require water. Um there's um you know we've looked into you know how to make the stall management and cleaning faster and easier for everyone. So there's there's new things out there and the good thing about the funding on this particular project is that we have the resources to develop this in a way that can be state-of-the-art for wildwood. I wish we could grow hay, sir. U we'll grow grass and they will eat the grass limited. They will, but no, there's not, you know, there's not enough property to do that. We ship in our hay. We ship in our shavings. Um it's a it's expensive. There's a really nice size storage barn on the other piece of property. And so all of that is in a storage barn, not you know the hay and the and um this the shavings bags are in there. Um and they get brought to the site when needed

for hay. Yeah. Oh, we use bales. Yeah. I mean we would use rolls if the horses lived outside and right now um no none of them live outside. So yes sir that comes in bail. Yes it's in bales generally speaking like alalfa the better haz than what cattle get with the right. So we have a bro we usually use a bro mix and occasionally some of them will get alalfa. It's a little rich. So we we are careful about that. Clover, the good stuff.

The good stuff outside. They love Yeah. Yeah. They don't usually do round. No. Yeah. I mean, if you have a Yes. If you have a If you have animals that are just living on the ground, you know, and they don't go in ever, you'll see the round bales in that circumstance. But in our circumstance, you you won't see round bales out there.

Any other questions? Oh, so just for my benefit, I believe there's a sizable training facility off Shephard Road. Um, yes. Yeah. Oh, yes.

Size-wise, how will this compare to Are we talking similar businesses? uh do they do the same discipline as we do? I know Sus Beginsky very well. Um I would say their ring is going to be slightly bigger than their ring is slightly bigger than ours. Um their state they can house more horses than we can and are asking to do and but we have much better pasture. I mean it's it's not even a comparison. They're on a hill. uh the horses, you know, the they have a riding program for kids and all those horses live down a sloped hill. Um and I'm not putting that down. I mean, this is but that's the situation. That's not what we're looking to do. It's a different business model.

So, but similar, you're completely right, a similar idea. Gotcha. And but ours the um the look of ours um is more upscale. Yeah, probably a good thing because you're right on BA, right? They're hidden off Shepard. They are. They did build houses on the way in there. Um, and just so that you know it, we're about 500 feet off of BA. So, we're definitely not on the road. You know, we're we're we have a really good setback on where we're putting this and um we we have a we'll have a really nice landscape plan that will go along with this as well. Thank you. You're welcome.

Do we have any speaker cards? Just ask Miss Sher Holtz if anybody else want from the team wants to stop. All right, come on up and if you can fill out a speaker card.

Okay. Uh, thank you guys. Um, my name is Nick Wilhelm. I live at 850 Ballard Park Drive. Uh that's my mother-in-law. Um I was not growing up at all around horses. I married into it and uh the care that my wife provides these horses is frankly unbelievable. Um the budget on a monthly basis that we put into maintaining uh facilities and their health is truly beyond belief. Um, but we're also raising a family on on this land. And every single decision that we make is both for the health and benefit of the little guy that's running around and our future children and and and also for the community around us. We moved to Wildwood 3 years ago and we love every single part of it and we want to be part of the community. My wife has the talent and the drive and the resources to reach Olympic aspirations and this is the facility we want to do to get there. So, I appreciate everyone thinking about it and and um if you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer anything as well.

Thank go. What type of horses would are you training? Uh hunter jumpers. So, we uh she's at a horse show in Michigan right now. Um she's truly one of the best 10 trainers in the country. And uh there's two different styles. Uh hunter is is like technique going around the arena while going over jumps and then jumper is truly get around the arena as fast as you can and jump as high as you can. So, this is not Dr. or anything?

No sir. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, sir. May have confused matters. I do have a speaker card from a member of the public. Oh, okay.

It's from William. My name is William Sam. I live right across the street from these people. They do a good job. The weighs the catch right now. They do a great job. Only thing is the air is heavy. I can't smell manure down my lower ground. Not a big deal. That's all. You know, I killed four grounds this year. I don't know. It's from the feed or just in mother nature. I've never I've been out for 50 some years. Only had two. I killed in the last year. The varmmerance are there. But they do legit. I'm glad they put the B building far off the ground, far back. That's good. Got a lot of parking. I know where the other people are. They train horses. Sometimes get tractor trailers with horses on. Couple weeks ago, I was going north. There's tractors sitting in the right the northbound lane. You pop over to little hill, you don't really get to see it until you're on top of them. But I think that's something they may want to address if they're going to get these animals in and out throughout the country. So there's really no way to unload this stuff off the road unless they do something with the shoulder to make it bigger so they can. They do a good job. You know, I'm glad they're building it far enough off.

All right. Thank you. Thank you. Um, the department has not received any additional speaker cards in the room and the attendees are all here for other items. Okay. All right. Um, all right. We have a motion to close the public hearing by Commissioner Rubis, second by Commissioner Clayton. Any discussion? All those in favor say I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? All right. Motion carries. Thank you.

Next on the agenda, PZ8-25, Mr. Newberry. PZ8-25, City of Wildwood, Planning and Zoning Commission, Care of Department of Planning, 16860 Main Street, Wildwood, Missouri. A request to review and consider potential allowances for drive-through facilities within the workplace district designation of the regulating plan of the city's Town Center plan. Currently, this land use designation does not allow restaurant or other comparable uses with drive-through facilities. This review may include, but is not necessarily limited to the determination of the impact of drive-through facilities upon the design, function, and character of development sites along with any mitigating factors associated with them to address the same. Additionally, with the certain with certain considerations regarding architectural elements associated with these types of facilities will also be reviewed 1, four, five, and eight.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry. Mr. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, members of the Planning and Zoning Commission, the Department of Planning has prepared for your consideration tonight its information report with recommendation regarding the matter Mr. Newberry just read into the record for this meeting. As you know, the city of Wildwood has been an advocate of new urbanism and that new urbanism is applied in the town center area of the city. As Mayor Geratano likes to mention, that town center area is approximately 800 acres of a 68 square mile community. The town center from its inception intended to deemphasize as much as possible vehicle orientated designs, meaning bringing buildings closer to the street, creating generous pedestrian facilities, reducing parking, and limiting drive-throughs to certain activities that can only function with that type of facility. and I speak of primarily financial institutions with drive-through facilities. However, as we discussed at the public hearing in August, there have been a number of things that have gone on over the years that have taught us that drive-through facilities are no longer just a convenience, but almost a necessity. And those things primarily were the pandemic and how it changed lifestyles almost everyone. This particular matter, adding drive-thru facilities in the workplace district for certain properties has been considered several times by the planning and zoning commission. And in each of those instances, there was not the level of support to proceed forward. Tonight, the department is recommending that there be a consideration, a favorable

consideration of such. And new to the discussion tonight are several conditions that would be applied if a drive-through facility is petitioned on these certain properties. The second new item is an actual map of those properties the department believes would be suitable for consideration. And as you can see with the assistance of Mr. Newberry, that map is now on your screens. I think key to this discussion is understanding that first and foremost, as was mentioned by the planning and zoning commission at the public hearing in August, that any of these facilities would have to be first tier properties on Route 109 or Route 100. The intent would be to capture the traffic patterns and volumes on those two major arterial statemaintained roadways as well as given the volumes ensure a high level of success if a business with drive-thru facility was to be proposed. The second key critical point to the department is the fact that any of these would require not only a potential reszoning but in conjunction with a reszoning a conditional use permit. And as you know that conditional use permit is granted by the planning and zoning commission with review by city council. Therefore, the planning and zoning commission can tailor the design, the function, and all other aspects of a drive-through facility through that permit and have a high level of insurance that those details will be contained if it is um not reviewed by city council and ultimately constructed.

Thereafter, there are discussions about landscaping, birming, placement of the drive-thru facility from a strategic standpoint relative to surrounding land uses, stacking, emergency lanes, sign regulations, and architectural review. The intent would be to bring all the components, the tools, so to speak, that are available to the planning and zoning commission and our city council to ensure that if a drive-thru facility is proposed on any of these 10 lots, that it is done with respect to the surrounding land use, safety in terms of access and ingress and egress. And then finally, it functions in a way that obviously uh accentuates the business and makes it successful. So tonight before you is a favorable recommendation that contains for the most part 11 components relative to what the department believes at this time are essential to accommodate a drive-through facility on these 10 lots. and then the 10 lots themselves. That would be the group recommended for consideration. With that, the department will conclude its presentation and would like we'll be glad to entertain any questions or comments. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Vinnich. Is there discussion or a motion? All right. Motion by Commissioner Con. Second. Oh. Oh, I guess I should let you state your motion.

Did you turn on your microphone?

I think my mistake. In your list of conditions, did you limit or list the type of uses that are possible given that there's probably some uses that we haven't thought of yet? Well, for the most part, what I did, Mr. Con, was to defer to the workplace district, which has a lengthy list of uses that include drive-thru facility, excuse me, it includes fast food restaurants without drive-thru facilities and then financial institutions with drive-through facilities and a full range of retail options as well. For example, Walgreens is a great example of that. Walgreens needed a drive-thru for their pharmacy, which is a key component now in terms of how the medicine is dispensed to individuals. So, I didn't necessarily try to establish just a limited number of uses. I gave them the breadth of the uses that exist now in the workplace district.

Other words, what's existing, but not limiting what might come to be useful with the drive-thru in the future. Exactly. And I think a key component, it's a very good question in all of our zoning districts, we have a lengthy list of permitted uses. Are those activities permitted by right? And then we have a list of conditional uses that have the special permit that the commission must consider and grant if to be applied. In most instances, we can't cover every potential use. And so what we do is we generally through interpretation and sometimes presentation to the commission try to find like activities. If there's certain characteristics that a new use exhibits that's very similar or close to a use that's in the in the list already. That's how we treat it. So we try to it's impossible to list all the uses I guess is what I'm saying but we list the uses in general enough categories I think in some instances to give us that flexibility and at the end of day it is always a commission recommendation to city council and so I feel comfortable as the director of the department to say that we get it right 99% of the time.

Thank you. All right. Need a second still. Second by Commissioner Clayton. All right. Um, any other discussion? Um, so one question on the map. Um, if you can pull up the map of properties real quick. Um, lot number eight. Is that Is that one you said? Is that actually two commercial lots? Yes. Okay.

The way it was designed, or I should say the way it was ultimately was platted, let's say, um there's one lot on the north side of Main Street at Route 109. It's number seven, but there is intended to be two lots on number eight. All right. Because there's a big ravine going right through the middle of that. Correct. And that's kind of the lot line for all intents and purposes. Now, the restriction on the let's say that southern leg of eight is that the way that the way the access was designed is it's more of a right in right out

so as not to allow that gully that ravine to be crossed. So there's a more of a physical challenge on that southern component versus the northern which accesses off of Main Street. All right. So all right and seven and the north half can only be accessed from Maine Maine. But the southern lot that borders Wildwood Trail, that'd be a right in right out off 109. That's how it was shown on the site development plan when Main Street crossing was going through the review by the commission. Okay.

And I'll attach that to the letter of recommendation so you can kind of see. Obviously number four is an 40 plus acre fast food site, but there is an outlot that was required by city council to be retained along Route 109. The platting process hasn't reached that point where we've created the 115 lots, common ground area, and this one outlot. But to kind of provide you that the location, we did the best we could. And is lot one vacant. That's not the one of the churches right there, is it?

It's the vacant. It's and it's actually two lots as you can see from the map, but it was presented to the planning and zoning commission and ultimately approved by city council for a commercial center. So, they're under both under the same ownership and for all intents and purposes for access they need to come they need to be both need to be together because they're right at the intersection of Manchester Road and Route 109. There's some stacking issues on Manchester Road and then there's just some sight distance issues on Route One on Ryan. So if sorry, linked together. So if someone wanted to develop lot two, they'd probably have to do an entrance on lot one.

That's that's the way the original design that was approved via the zoning. Um I can't see them doing something different. It's almost seven acres though, so it's a prettyly large property. And ultimately, I don't know if we would see something like at Old State Road and Manchester Road where you have a Burger King and Taco Bell, but suffice to say, I think the two are married and that's why they're identified as two potential candidates. Thank you. You're welcome.

All right. Um, one more commercial. Yes. And it has even a larger gully that goes through the center of it, which is probably the reason it's been shown for sale for 30 years. And I don't know if anybody's I don't know if I've ever talked to anybody about it in that 30-year period of time. It's a tough site. Is does it I guess is that more Bonham Creek headwaters there? Exactly.

Yeah, because Yeah, until they built the roundabout. I didn't realize that it dropped off near the roundabout so much right there on the west side of 109. Yeah, it's a it's a little scary if you're in a big truck taking that outside corner of the roundabout when you look Yeah. If there's no other discussion, uh, roll call vote. Commissioner Jackson. Yeah. Uh, Commissioner Jack or Commissioner Clayton seconded it.

Yes. I have a motion by, uh, Commissioner Con, seconded by Commissioner Clayton to approve the department's recommendation as presented. Um, roll call vote. Yeah. Commissioner Jackson. Yes. Commissioner Rubis. Yes. Commissioner Borne. Yes. Commissioner Con? Yes. Commissioner Clayton? Yes. Chair Batty? Yes. Council member Marshall? Yes. Motion carries. Thank you. All right. Uh, Mr. Newberry, PZ3-25. Yes, sir.

Just give me one moment. Get some books in here. PZ3-25, City of Wildwood, Planning and Zoning Commission, Care of Department of Planning, 16860 Main Street, Wildwood, Missouri 63040. An authorized review by the Planning and Zoning Commission of certain components of the city's sign regulations specifically within chapter 415. 4, excuse me, 415.030, definitions. Chapter 415.4 sign regulations general. Chapter 415.410 410 sign regulations for FPNUPS and all R districts and chapter 415.420 sign regulations for all C and M districts which will consider possible modifications relating to electronic message boards, signex grows, calculations of sign sizes, lighting characteristics, insulation components and the related definitions for the same all WS.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry, Mr. Vinich. Sorry. You're good.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Jared, members of the planning and zoning commission, the department of planning has provided to you tonight the second publication of this particular information report with recommendations. As the planning and zoning commission is aware, at the August 4th meeting of this group, a motion was made to approve the changes to the sign regulations relating to business types, particularly wall uh representations and to not proceed forward with the prohibition on electronic message centers. The planning and zoning commission felt very strongly and voiced that uh opinion that there had to be a middle ground, something that would allow them relative to their application in the city, but certainly not to the point that we create an unwanted or negative impact on their locations. To ensure that middle ground, the department again depended on Randy Burrat of Reed Burkat Lighting Design who is on tonight's meeting via Zoom and they that consultant assisted the department both in the presentations that were made to the planning and zoning commission at two work sessions and then in discussions that entailed after the second work session to tonight. For the purposes of tonight's discussion, the department will just note that there have been no changes to the sign regulations relative to business types, temporary types, etc. So, as they were presented on August 4th and favorably acted upon by the planning and zoning commission, they are as was presented. Tonight, though, you have new regulations for electronic message centers.

The regulations start with a definition of what is an electronic message center and that definition comes again from Reed Burquette Lighting Design and we feel very comfortable using that definition based upon the experience of that particular firm and consultant. Thereafter it speaks to the zoning district designations for these types of electronic message centers can be considered. The zoning definitions are districts are broad. It starts with the NU non- urban resident district inclusive of all our districts, the resident districts, the C the C districts, commercial districts including the C8 plan commercial district and then finally the industrial districts. That unto itself may sound a little ownorous, but again remember the tail that wags this dog is that under an action of the economic development committee of city council which was forwarded to this planning and zoning commission only entities that are public in nature with taxing authority would be considered for these types of electronic message centers. So although every zoning district category is identified, we have identified what we believe is approximately 22 locations where we could potentially see this type of sign. The department would first note the likelihood of all 22 locations applying for an electronic message center are probably not very high, but again for the purposes of our discussion, it was important to identify them for you. After the identification of the districts as directed by the planning and zoning commission, the electronic message center would require a conditional use

permit. And so that is the ultimate protection and from the perspective of the members of the planning and zoning commission its ability to ensure that if the favorable recommendation is provided by the group that favorable recommendation will ensure that you as a body will see it first granted with review by city council. The department went on then to identify that only one message center shall be allowed per property and typically it'll be a monument type only. And so again we do not allow pylon or pole signs. So monument signs would be the only option. Now the question may be from a potential user. If I have double front edges why can't I have two? Well, again, a cautious step first. If we're trying something new, we've not had it in 30 plus year 30 years. 30 plus years, 30 years in a day, quite frankly.

Um, I think a a cautious approach to them is appropriate. And so, let that entity pick the primary frontage that serves them best instead of assuming that two signs are always better than one. Thereafter, the the proposed regulation talks about not no sign shall utilize flashing animations, icons or figures and be limited to lettering only. Again, direction from the planning and zoning commission from our August 4th meeting from our consultant, Mr. Burr. There was a um intent to have a dark background with light lettering which is consistent with our outdoor lighting requirements and that the display area be limited to 60% of the overall sign face. So 60 with lighting, 40 with none. The message center would not have changing colors in association with the lettering. Again, as we've been told by potential users of these centers is that they have messages to convey in a short period of time, but they've also said in defense of their efforts that they do not want to create a safety issue or a distraction on the road. And I think ways to achieve that is of having animations, flashing, etc., and changing colors. Uh the message centers in terms of transitions would occur on an hourly basis and again that's probably the most strictest component of what the department is recommending. Some transitions are allowed on every 10 second on a 10-second basis and range from that down to 3 seconds and on up. The logic here again is we're doing

public entities. The message again I would believe would speak to a PTO meeting. Uh change your batteries for a um a time change, those kinds of things. There may be some emergency um components that would be necessary on certain ones. We can certainly talk about that as we move from tonight's meeting to the letter of recommendation which would be in October if a favorable action is taken tonight. As part of the ordinance we talked about missh where these message centers would be who would own have ownership Rockwood school district the three fire protection districts federal government St. Louis County St. Community College, Great River Greenway, finally the city of Wildwood operational characteristics in terms of time. And then probably another one of the items that uh discussed by Mr. Burquette is available to go in greater detail if you would like are lighting zones. So the logic is not all Wildwood is created equal. East of Route 109 and particularly in the suburban development areas and town center, there is already a substantial amount of lighting, whether it be lighting on homes or businesses, street lights, etc. Out west, the circumstances are different. So in the attempt to minimize impact and calibrate sign lighting illumination to the area department is recommending lighting zones for the city. Lighting zone one is the rule area lighting zone two is the remainder inclusive of that center. And in each of those there would be different standards for illumination.

So the idea here is, and it's been the idea of the city of Wildwood since day one, one size does not fit all in Wildwood. So we can guarantee in the rural areas that lighting illumination levels, but given the dark environment are reflective of that dark environment. Mr. Burr did a very good job of explaining how bright lights in a dark environment require your people to adjust and the recovery from that adjustment can be several seconds. And so the intent here is to guarantee that adjustment is minimized to the greatest extent possible. And so I received, excuse me, Travis and I received on on Friday I believe late Friday some details on these lighting zones from Mr. Burquette. And with the permission of the chair, Mr. Berquette would like I would like him to kind of explain the the lighting zones a little bit more in detail given his expertise and the lack on the part. That's fine. Go ahead. Go ahead, Mr. Briquette.

Hello everyone. First of all, can you hear? Is there anyone who can't hear me? I guess that's a better way of looking at it. Loud be clear.

Okay, I assume so. That's good. And thank you, Joe, for the uh uh the review and bringing everyone up to date and certainly all the things or the things you've talked about to this moment. I'd be happy to provide additional comment on those. But specifically, um, we were talking at at great depth, uh, about Wildwood and having described as Joe did that Wildwood has basically two significant areas which we are calling lighting zone one and lighting zone two. The lower number means less ambient light and we're using that as a working model at the moment and uh it still will demand long-term as we get into lighting ordinance and so forth uh more scrutiny as to what that means to the city. Uh but in general terms u z lighting zone one is a darker environment than lighting zone 2. And if you were in downtown St. Lewis, that might be lighting zone 4, for example. What we're uh Yes, thank you for bringing that up on screen. So, you can see here the area that I must admit um planning team uh outlined those edges, if you will, for the two lighting zones, but uh ostensibly these are the two uh unique areas. Now it practically speaking there will be a visual boundary or a visual no man's land if you will. Uh you can't you don't take one step from lighting zone 2 into lighting zone one and and it's much much darker at that point. Uh so that that's something we'll have to get into a little bit to the uh get into a little

more detail as to how we handle uh areas such as that the transition zones uh which is a common problem in other communities. So it is something that's surmountable. But what we're suggesting here is with the EMC, electronic message centers, uh that if they occur in both lighting zone one and lighting zone two, uh it it will not be the same uh target illuminance or light output. Uh if you think about any you I know most of you now driven and seen some of these in other communities and or at least know them from our presentations the last couple of times. Uh in a manner of such that Joe outlined what it would and would not do. The principal difference between lighting one and uh lighting zone one and lighting zone two with respect to uh the uh uh EMC's would be a significant lower luminance or light output of the message. So let's say that you're in uh the heart of lighting zone 2 where the community has much more activity and of course there's some retail areas and so forth. those particular LMC's would would be of a brightness that we outlined the first time around. And I won't go through all the nerdy numbers at this point. We can if you want, but uh suffice it to say that that uh that output is would be as consistent with with what it was we presented before. However, that same sign if you were to pick it up and pluck it in the middle of lighting zone one and uh that would be a significantly brighter impact on the lighting zone one environment even though it would have the same output as those you know elements located in lighting zone 2. So the idea here is to

uh make it significantly uh lower in brightness so that uh the eyes that see those those um uh lighting zone one electronic message centers are viewing it with an already adapted dark eye. meaning that I mean we've all driven in some I not as much as most of you but I've driven through many of these lighting zone one areas in the evening or after dark and in some areas it's I would almost rural the darkness uh very little light and your eyes adapt to that by opening up and that's how you see uh otherwise you wouldn't see near what you need in that low light level the eye gets more and more sensitive well we certainly do not want to uh use uh the output that you have in lighting zone 2 and and put it into lighting zone one. The message could be exactly the same but what we'll be doing what we we are suggesting is that its output will be significantly lower than what it would be in zone 2. same message just a much lower luminance or output. Uh and yet the same message would be perceived in similar clarity and understanding because of the uh out the uh uh the individual's uh u well basically the sensitivity of the eye. the eye will be a lot more sensitive to light in lighting zone one. And because of that the uh accommodation of the eye uh can uh adaptation will be able to see that sign and see it clearly and information can be conveyed without having the much brighter uh center LMC EMC in lighting zone 2. So that's the previous or that's the the biggest difference between these signs and where they're placed.

So um you might again understand and uh hopefully are sensitive to the fact that there are transition areas here and there would have to be some decision about how uh how we do that going from lighting zones to area within seconds into lighting zone one. Uh we have to understand I don't think there'll be necessarily a gradual change. Uh it will have to be used at a certain level. It gets a little too complicated if you try to say, well, the first the first 100 yards you it reduces by 50% and so forth and so on. We're going to look at a se a separate singular sign presentation for that lighting zone just as there will be for lighting zone 2. So that that is the single biggest u uh issue that we're looking at. Now there are other things that we want to discuss but um Joe I'm not sure or Travis do one of you do you want me to go any further or is that that really is the crux the measurement technique of how how uh whether it meets the code will be the same but it the the u uh the numbers that that are divine uh or found from the each of those two uh EMC's will be different and that's why it will be dimmed down further. then they're being dimmed in lighting zone 2.

So to respond to Mr. Burrquette and for the benefit of the commission members, there are a few things still in flux. Um Mr. Burquette and his team did a wonderful job of getting a lot of information to us. Mr. Newberry and I tried to simulate it and put it in the report. But I think tonight the department would respectfully request if there is an inclination, a motion and second and vote that the electronic message center regulations are generally acceptable knowing that we have to deal with the transition zones which quite frankly I didn't even think of because obviously we have Lafayette High School, Babler Elementary School, um and probably several others that are on Route 109. the border so to speak and so it's a critical issue. I'd also like to talk to Mr. Burquette more about the transition time. Yeah. Again, I've referenced 60 minutes an hour is very very conservative and I don't want to be unreasonable, nor do I want to present something to the commission members that's unreasonable. And then there are just some a few other things that need to be I think um discussed and probably detailed a little bit more for the benefit of your final consideration. But tonight, if you're opposed to electronic message centers as presented, the department needs to know that. If you're supportive of electronic message centers generally as presented, the department needs to know that. uh or if you think we need to start all over, we need to know that as well.

Uh if I could interrupt Joe, uh just a couple of additional comments and uh I don't want to extend this any longer. I know you've already had a long night. Um, one of the things that we have to remember that when you hear about lighting zones and dark skies, which we all would aspire to when possible, uh, fundamentally, uh, Wildwood is a a livable a living community and in what we're calling the LZ1 areas, much of that darkness is not dictated by how much ambient light is coming u, say from the sky. In other words, s even St. Lewis light that some of that does reach of course through atmospheric distortion and so forth. It but but what wildwood uh has that many other areas uh do not have is a um a great deal of forest and trees and things that create an even darker environment. So, even though someone could come in here and take measurements in an open field in the LZ1 area and say, "Well, it's pretty dark out here, but it's nothing like the middle of the desert," which is true, and that's why they have these different types of zones. But as a livable space, a livable community, we're looking at inherent darkness that's provided not only by a darkened sky away from a city, but also the tree canopy and uh other types of forms in in the geography of uh these areas that lend itself to a dark environment, a livable dark environment. And that's pretty important in the way we consider that. I don't know. Um, I have three slides I could show you if you would and I'd be very quick. Um, can I go ahead and and do that, Travis?

That's fine. Chair, is that acceptable? Yes, that's fine. Thank you. Okay. Yes, Mr. Orette, you should have the ability to share your screen. Okay, let's go now. Okay, we'll see if that works. Here we go. Okay. Um hopefully you'll be seeing that momentarily. Trying to share now. Okay. Do you see it on the screen? Do you see it? Not yet. Okay. There it goes. There you go.

Okay. Great. Thank you. Uh I'll just show you a couple of quick slides just so you get a context uh of the urban sky here. So if you look here, there is something called a bortal scale. B O R T L E. And without getting really nerdy, it's basically a measurement of ambient light in a given location. And you can see from uh the far right the dead of a city uh right in the middle of of a very busy city with a lot of light. Uh you can see those numbers as high as eight. And as you go down in the scale, you get into and they describe these areas. So number three is a rural sky. Number two is a dark sky site and number one of course would be uh almost unattainable in most areas and that's the dark sky site. And so these are not the L1, L2, L3, F4, all of that. This is a different this is literally measured material. Uh this particular graph is a light pollution graph that is taken by satellites uh constantly well not constantly but quite often over these areas and you can see um the class five suburban sky over here. Hopefully you can it's a red off to the left and you can see those values u are are there that show that for a bordal class five it's a suburban sky. Here are the here all the numbers and so forth. But as you look here, if I go to the next slide, make it a little more uh relevant. Here's the Wildwood uh location. And you can see these numbers are fives, number fives on the bordal scale. It gets even darker as you go on. And if you think about that, and that of course makes sense because there's less light from St. Louis and the St. Louis metroplex. And and so it even though you might say, well, it's wouldn't be any darker out there, it is of course darker for the obvious reason once you talk about it.

It's also interesting to see that the that the rural areas within the city limits of Wildwood and other communities uh outside of St. Louis are trending about 5% brighter every year from atmospheric pollution. And it's principally because ironically too that I that LEDs are being used that and used uh unfortunately in poor ways um not not fully shielded and so forth and so on and also overlighting areas even though it might be a good lighting scheme there might be far much far more light than needed. So, these are the these are a couple of the things that are are important that we would like to look at with the planning team as we move forward or as you move forward as necessary. And um I I think that's all I wanted to say for now. I'm going to stop sharing. I just thought it would be worthwhile you could see a little bit more about the ambient conditions. Thanks Joe and Travis. And

thank you the commissioners. So members of the planning and zoning commission, what are you thinking? Sure count? No. Now given that I'm given that the electronic boards are only going to be allowed in taxing districts. What level of enforcement or what tools does the city have to correct violations that are realistic?

Well, fortunately, I believe it was the second work session, Mr. Burquette went through a stepbystep process. I think it was about six steps. We'll have to purchase an inexpensive piece of equipment. I believe inexpensive relative to lighting light testing. Um but for the most part I think the heavy lifting will come at the front end when we receive an application. making sure that all of the components that are identified in the regulations are met and then getting some kind of certification from the installer that it was installed according to the specifications of the city and on the improved plan. That way we have a certification. So if immediately we start getting complaints, we don't need to argue is it right or wrong? You said it was right. We'll test it. And if not, certification wasn't worth the paper it was written on. Don't want that to happen. How we How are we going to do it? It'll require some training, require the purchase of some equipment, and it'll require someone to be out here at nighttime if there are complaints.

Let me try it again. Let's say we complete everything that you described. The sign goes up, you test it, and then we find out that every 25 seconds or whatever, they're changing the message, and we tell them to stop. How do we enforce that given that they're the county library, they're part of the Rockwood School District? You we send them to court? I mean, is that our only recourse?

Um, that is the risk, so to speak, of doing only public entities that have taxing authority because many of them uh are higher levels of government. The federal government can do generally what it wants. State of Missouri can generally do what it wants in Wildwood. So, how it is enforced? If they receive a warning notice in disregard, the only option left is to write a summon and ask them to appear in municipal court. Okay. And hope they show up.

Hope they show up and hope they uh for the most part if they I prefer them not to show up and just fix the problem. Let's say it that way.

Thank you, Councilman Marshall. So Joe, when we get to this point of writing up these procedures, does the council have the ability to raise the dollar amount of the fine? I mean, sometimes our fine at $50 or or or whatever just doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent. So, if we were going to go through this process of trying to I I totally agree the enforcement is going to be the biggest challenge, but I think we need to have some teeth in it to where there is some way to to make sure that we don't have people because I know they're expensive signs, but sometimes people just we'll put the money up, they can't make us take it down. So to make sure from a legal standpoint that the department has the teeth to move it and not take 6 months of going to court and then have them jump it over and take it to the county court and you know we end up with a sign flashing all night long in somebody's neighborhood. So I would defer to the city attorney. I know that since 2014 when state senate passed um new requirements relative to municipal court, but I would defer to the city attorney with his experience and other municipalities. Maybe there's a solution out there besides a $250 fine.

Uh thank you, Mr. Vich. Uh the fines that cities can impose are statutoily capped. However, there is a graded increase for each day the violation continues. So, the uh total cap on citations and prosecutions in St. Louis County is $1,000 and each and every day the violation continues as a separate offense. So, you can issue theoretically a citation a day while the violation continues. Uh so, that can add up quickly. I will note that in terms of the just to make a point um any concerns about enforcement of the code provision should this be allowed is a current problem and won't really necessarily be changed by any change to the code and I will say also that there is the possibility of injunctive relief if the prosecutotorial actions don't fix the problem

yeah that was actually pretty garbled Sorry. First and foremost, currently the maximum fine is $250, but each time the fine, it is my understanding that the municipal court if it's if it's a reoccurring violation, can then increase the level of fine up to $1,000. And from the standpoint of the department, and we used to do this years ago, for each day that the violation continues, we would write another summon. So, collectively, those summons can add up if you do it on a daily basis. For the most part, and this certainly isn't a slide against any of our prosecuting attorneys, they prefer us not to do that. I think the limitation that we've worked under is maybe once a week versus seven days per week. And then as Mr. Young concluded, if this situation rises to a level, Mr. Young can take over and do a request for a temporary injunction at the circuit court of St. Louis County. And we've had those in past years done to us versus us to them. Commissioner, did you have something?

Okay. Commissioner Jackson. Now, I want to I missed out on the leadup to this. I couldn't make those meetings, but uh is this a um it's just public entities. It's like the fire department, the schools, no one else, no businesses. You have to have the authority to levy a tax and that limits it very much.

Okay. So, I'm just going to I want to remind those that maybe weren't here when it first started. It was last fall. It was our winter and it was cold and one of the council people is works at Lafayette and they want to put a sign up and we kind of discussed this because let sleeping dogs lie um because you open up Pandora's box and that includes enforcement and everything else. So really, if you want, you know, if the Metro Fire really needs to put up a sign or Lafayette school does, maybe it's homecoming. I'm sure like the football when football's going on or baseball or whatever, the lights have to go off at 10:00 or when the game's over, so the residents around there don't like it. Maybe the signs you put requirements in that in the conditional use permit. I understand the reasonableness of this thing, but I go back to why we're here is because it was cold and someone didn't want to go out there and put the manual sign up and we open up Pandora's box. I just caution. Hey, it's not going to affect me where I live and if that's what the city wants to do, I'm I'm definitely going to be a team player here. I just want to make sure everyone thinks it through real quick because once you allow out one place, it opens up and eventually businesses say, "Hey, what about me?" And anyway, that's my general statement. Thanks,

Mr. Jackson. The economic development committee of city council actually fashioned a a motion that includes many of the things that are identified in the regulations which were presented to the planning and zoning commission at the August meeting. Um I think the economic development committee the eight city council members are very cautious but they also understand that from the perspective of the city it is a technology that's matured and that's addressed in the analysis of the report 10 years ago I probably would have you know slam my fist on the podium and said the technology isn't there we can't do some of these things right now that would protect the areas around the location of the message center. So from that perspective, the department was cautious as it I think isn't should be in most instances when we're looking at new things. But the direction that Mr. Berquette provided and the members of the commission at our last meeting. I think we've have a set of regulations and some level of presentation that'll achieve achieve a goal of everybody. Um we'll do our best to enforce. I can assure you that and I actually think that many of the public entities they have enforcement authority too. So they understand the frustration of it at times and the limitations it provides. So if any group of users is going to probably be comply just because I think it's this group in the in the pathway leading up to where we are

in the pathway where we are tonight leading up to this have any businesses discussed about the possibility a warning an electronic sign and did that stir some of the angst in in proceeding to where we are over the years businesses have requested this type of signage. Um obviously we didn't make provision for it so the answer was no we don't allow those types. Um certainly Mr. Jackson Point probably will come to fruition once a business owner sees an electronic message center somewhere on Route 109 or wherever in the city. They'll ask, "Well, why do they get it?" And we don't. But um Mr. Young said, I believe at one of the work sessions that we can restrict it to a certain type of user and so that's the intent. Councilman Marshall.

So, I'll make a motion a minute, but I just wanted to share that when I drive here, I go by Green Pines Elementary. And tonight, they've got the pizza, the sign, the facing off the sign that says January 10th, Pizza 7:30 PTO. So, that's since January that sign has been and they couldn't get to it. So, now they've taken the panel off uh in order to work on it. So, and believe me, in in all of my years around here, it's a constant challenge for the signs. The people who get one and say, "Well, we should get one to the daycarees, the churches." We've had churches along 109 who wanted to build do billboards and use that for generating revenue for their churches. So, it's never this is just isn't something new, but I think the technology has really done and and therefore I'd like to make the motion that we proceed with the department's recommendation um as soon as possible because it's a big issue with the council too um so that we can continue to move forward and get the answers back to to the people asking for it. So, I'll make that motion.

Right. So, we have a motion by Councilman Marshall. Uh Commissioner Clayton seconds. Second that. All right. One question. Go ahead. So, hey, Joe. Is this on the agenda of the master plan committee to talk about lighting? It is not actually Mr. Burke kind of alluded to it. As you recall, a while back we talked about aesthetic lighting, right? It kind of um got derailed because we were accused of not liking Santa Claus, the reindeer,

all the elves because we were going to ban holiday lighting, which was certainly not what was intended. And then we've been looking at updating our outdoor lighting requirements for many, many years. So, what'll end up happening is as we move forward with this, we'll also bring back to you very shortly um Mr. Burquette, his team, and reports on those, but it will not be at the master plan committee. Again, remember, we've had those discussions about more general versus more specific, and you can't get more specific than when you're talking about individual fixtures and fully shielding, type of illumination, etc.

Well, I just didn't want us to get trapped in this because we're all on the master plan committee as well. I just wanted to make sure. My apologies to all of you about them. It's like it has been kind of a slo through the first part, but I always hope we'll catch some momentum and keep things moving. Thank you. All right. Um, any further discussion? Thank you. All right, seeing none, roll call vote. Commissioner Con? Yes. Commissioner Clayton, yes. Commissioner Jackson, yes. Commissioner Rubis, yes. Commissioner Bourne, yes. Chair Batty. Yes. Council member Marshall. Yes.

Motion carries. Thank you. Thank you.

All right. Um, next thing on the agenda, PZ3-18. Um, Mr. Newberry. A review and determination regarding a quest to a request to renew an existing conditional use permit CUP in the NU non-Urban residence district which was originally granted by the planning and zoning commission in on May 18, excuse me, May 2018 PZ 3-18 Penin LLC care of Terry Gury. Subject property is a 31.2 2 acre tract of land that is located at the terminus of an unnamed private drive which intersects the southern rightway of Pond Road northwest of Smith School Road and southeast of Ria Road. Locator number 22W 4200013, street address 1237 Pond Road. This conditional use permit CU authorizes a large water feature lake on the subject lot. The existing permit associated with this large water feature requires the facility to be reviewed for ongoing maint maintenance review and compliance to the governing permit on a seven-year time frame. Ward one.

Thank you, Mr. Newberry. Mr. Vinich,

Mr. Chair, members of the planning and zoning commission, as you can tell from the description read into the record by Mr. Newberry, this particular item should have been considered in the early part of this summer. Um, we are trying to catch up with that. the department and the property owner did their very best to try to set up a site visit but given the holidays and etc that was not to come to fruition. So tonight the department is updating you that we have posted the matter. It is not ready for final consideration day. We did schedule the site visit for September 17th and so we'll have the full report to you in October. So if there any questions regarding this process, the department would be glad to try to answer them.

Thank you. Any profus? This isn't the same water. I think Mr. Roberts also. Yeah, this is different from that. Yes, I would put some red flags around the um the the the announcement on the agenda if it was Mr. Robbins facility. So, you'd be ready. Oh, and you weren't even on the commission when all that started. I think we've addressed all of those finally. So, but if there are any questions on this particular matter and the timing, we'd be glad to try to answer them.

Yeah, I was looking like seven years and I was on there when this came up the first time. Yeah, dates some. Yeah, like I say, time flies. Well, thank you. All right. Um, if no one has anything else, a motion to adjurnn. All right. Motion by Commissioner Rubis. Second by Commissioner Clayton. All those in favor say I. I. I. Any opposed? Any abstain? We're journ. Thank you again. We appreciate it very much. Thank you, Mr. Bourne and Mr. Young. Thank